Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / Nazi Salutes = Free Speech? with John Safran

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Nazi Salutes = Free Speech? with John Safran · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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  I just don't feel in 2026 in Australia
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  in the light of things that have happened that
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  I'm going to be the edgy Jew who's going to be like
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  Oh, you know what?
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  You can hail Hitler a Jew when it's free speech.
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  I'm just not going to be such an idiot.
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  G'day, humans.
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  Welcome to The Safe Space for Dangerous Ideas.
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  Is a Nazi salute free speech?
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  This is one of the many questions being wrestled with by today's guest.
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  He is one of the most celebrated and influential
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  bad boys of Australian media, a provocateur, a satirist, a radio host,
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  a documentary maker, sort of like a young Michael Moore.
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  He's known for television shows like John Safran versus God,
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  race around the world.
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  And for 10 years, he hosted a Sunday night radio show
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  called Sunday Night Safran with a Catholic priest.
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  Some of his previous exploits look and sound like this.
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  Why am I doing this from speaking through Jerusalem
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  to taking part in Native American rituals?
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  I made a career out of blasphemy and offense.
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  So that's John Safran.
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  And just before I tell you a little more about today's episode,
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  a huge thank you to our substacks subscribers.
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• 1:23
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  free episode per week.
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  And if you pay, you never, ever, ever hear an ad.
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  Anyway, where were we back to John Safran?
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  And in his latest one hour documentary,
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  he explores the idea of offendedness, offensive speech,
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  offensive gestures, what we should outlaw, what we should not.
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  In this conversation, John and I briefly talk about the phrase
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  from the river to the sea, which John suggests might be illegal
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  in parts of Australia, just for your information.
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  We looked it up afterwards.
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  It is not illegal to chant from the river to the sea
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  or globalize the interfarter in Australia,
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  although in one state, in Queensland,
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  new laws passed this year in the wake of the Bondi terrorist attack.
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  Do make those phrases illegal when used publicly.
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  And I quote in a way that is alleged to menace, harass,
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  or offend members of the public.
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  So it's all about the intent of why you're saying those things,
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  which is kind of the point of John's new special.
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  It's called, shut your big fat mouth with John Safran.
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  It airs on SBS in Australia.
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  I hope you enjoy.
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  As much as I did, the one the only John Safran.
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  You're a spiritual man.
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  You're into the occult.
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  You're into the bigger things in life,
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  the mysterious forces that exist behind the veil
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  that we all think we're living inside.
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  I have only ever truly hated three people
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  who seriously wronged me and kind of to the extent
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  that I would be ashamed to say,
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  but maybe wished them ill.
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  All three of them died within 12 months of that happening.
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  Over the course of like 30 years.
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  Wow.
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  No, from mysterious, one of them got cancer,
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  one fell off a roof.
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  What do you think?
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  This would be a good premise or something.
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  I'm sure it's already been done.
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  That would be a great premise for like a supernatural horror.
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  Yeah, like where it's someone realizing that
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  whenever they hate the person,
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  surely that's been done.
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  Like I'm even going to stop talking to
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  its own embarrassing that I think that's an idea.
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  I like it as an idea.
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  I still think it's good.
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  I'll tell you who was good at making sure
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  that people he hated ended up dying, Hitler,
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  which brings us right to your excellent documentary.
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  He was very effective at hearing that people he didn't like.
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  And this becomes a starting point for you to say,
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  well, how would you should we deal with ideas that we don't like?
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  And people who express opinions about people,
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  which we don't think they should express.
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  Did this come out of the post October 7th
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  kind of upsurgent?
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  No. How we deal with anti-Semitism?
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  No, no, no, no, no, I mean,
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  what I find about my, like I can't explain
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  how boring this is without sounding boring,
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  but seeing me bother to ask.
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  But one of the real unseen things in,
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  I'm sure a lot of projects, including mine,
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  it's often that just things that are benign
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  or prosaic that just cause things to happen.
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  And because my projects are often
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  there's a spikey or there's something controversial,
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  like people can make assumptions about things,
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  like for instance, people go about some project of mine
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  of like, ooh, so what wasn't allowed to get into the final cut?
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  And then what actually wasn't allowed to get into the final cut
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  was the 10-second shot of the Slipknot album cover,
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  because it's not review and criticism.
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  So you can only have three seconds,
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  or your copyright, like that's what happened.
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  And anyway, this project had the slowest green light,
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  where it was like a dim green light,
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  and then slowly, slowly became a bigger light.
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  This has gone back years.
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  I mean years, so much so to give you an idea
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  of how much this kind of sort of being greenlit,
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  and then actually greenlit, is when it was kind of sort of greenlit,
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  I still had time to fly to Los Angeles,
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  spend a month and a half there,
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  including a week breaking into Kanye West's mansion,
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  and squatting there, then come back and spend about a year,
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  I think it was, maybe a bit less,
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  writing my book, squatting at Kanye's,
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  then going around doing a live show about it,
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  and doing the public, whatever.
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  And then finally, this was greenlit,
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  like that's how, so this goes back way before over seven.
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  And what's amazing is John that television,
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  so people seem to regard it as being somewhat less nimble
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  and relevant than online sources of information,
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  which I don't understand why that might be, who's to say?
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  Yes, but yeah, we had to,
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  especially at the start of when filming this,
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  there was a bit fumbling around, kind of in a good way,
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  but in a way, I haven't really dealt with so much before on TV,
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  things of like trying to actually figure out what the story is.
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  It's a big, big subject, like,
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  well, how do you deal with offendedness and hate speech
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  in a free society?
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  It's something that, like, we're all grappling
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  with both at a meta philosophical level
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  and like a daily level about how do you not punch people in the face?
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  And I think we're so behind the ball,
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  if that's the expression, like, it's so under-disgust.
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  Yeah, it's so under-disgust in these strange contexts
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  that if I kind of bring up some questions
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  for people to ruminate over without answering them,
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  I think that's a step forward,
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  because we don't ruminate over these things.
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  Like, for instance, I think in so much as there's conversations
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  where we think we're having a conversation about free speech
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  and what goes too far and who should be able to say what or what.
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  I think usually it's kind of a fake conversation.
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  Like, for instance, just say you went,
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  Israel versus Palestine or trans versus critics of China's abortion versus anti-abortion, right?
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  I think both sides, when they're claiming they're having a conversation
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  about what goes too far, they're actually just having a conversation
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  about Israel versus Palestine, and I've got this side.
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  And for instance, in the case of that, it'd be,
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  I'm going to try to demand, I get to say what I want,
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  and I get not only try to shut you down from you saying what you want,
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  but I'm going to phrase it in a way where I'm going to pretend
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  you're not having your free speech denied.
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  And what I'm saying is so often in these things,
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  like, you could pick any debate, and so often it's like,
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  it's just the two sides who are politically independent
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  of anything to do with free speech have their views.
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  And then for a small period of time,
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  they're using the free speech debate as the vector
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  to continue arguing, but they're really just arguing
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  abortion versus anti-abortion, right?
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  Legion versus secular, they're really arguing trans versus critics of trans
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  or whatever. And so it's kind of like, we have these fake
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  conversations.
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  Yeah, I mean, look at, generally, I'm not making fun of in the US,
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  I mean, or Elon Musk, being champions of free speech.
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  I think the easy way to test your hypothesis in any given example
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  is just to ask whether or not the people who are claiming
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  that their free speech rights are being infringed
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  are equally enthusiastic about extending those free speech rights
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  to the people who they hate on the other side.
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  And if they are, then it's about free speech.
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  I mean, if they're not, then it's got to then to do with free speech.
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  I think some, like the world moves so fast these days
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  that if you're a bit younger than us, like, you can be thinking,
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  what are they talking about or whatever?
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  So I think a recent one that has already disappeared
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  down the memory hole is when Twitter, when I was still called Twitter,
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  and the argument was, Twitter was seen on the whole as being quite,
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  you know, left wing or progressive or whatever like that.
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  And then when there were things put in play by the Twitter bosses to,
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  you know, shut down, you know, the opposite sides,
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  you know, conservatives or whatever, the argument became,
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  oh, well, this is an invasion of free speech
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  because Twitter's a private company and a private company can't,
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  duh, duh, duh, that's not what the second amendment,
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  is the first amendment about that, duh, duh, duh, duh.
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  Anyway, they come up with this long, long complicated thing,
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  but really it's just like, they don't like the other side.
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  And then when there's the er, the gear shift
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  and Alan Musk takes over Twitter and he starts being very,
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  in some ways, right wing or conservative or whatever you want to say
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  and starts shutting down the other side.
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  Suddenly, it's not like everyone on the left is going,
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  oh, you know what?
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  It's a private company.
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  And so this isn't, anyway.
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  Yeah, totally.
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  I mean, I was making a point at the time.
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  The only thing about me, like what's kind of really the only good side
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  to conserve the Donald Trump sort of trying to shut down
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  free speech in a way is that it really proves this thing of,
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  this goes beyond one side being the baddies
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  and the other side being the goodies.
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  There's, there's so little of even pretending,
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  like, you know, like that's why it's almost like,
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  someone they don't even want to discuss what I'm discussing
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  because I just don't think anyone in Australia actually cares,
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  which is fine.
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  But, oh, I think that's, I'll just go over there.
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  Listen to my record, I'm going to listen to my record player.
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  That'd be true, John.
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  I think people are just tired.
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  They're weary of the culture war battles around everything.
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  And I mean, on the question of, for example,
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  I mean, it's a good example you choose about like when the Twitter files,
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  you know, the stuff that the Twitter files revealed was going on,
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  the, the de prioritizing of conservative voices.
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  And, you know, the social media companies taking guidelines
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  from the Biden administration about what they should
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  and shouldn't be prioritizing.
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  Um, those and, and lefties saying, oh, it's, you know,
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  it's a private company.
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  It's not a free speech question.
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  I mean, I was saying at the time, you wouldn't be saying that
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  if the shoe was on the other foot because the social media has become a town square.
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  So, yes, it's not technically legalistically a first amendment question
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  because it doesn't involve the government censoring things.
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  These are private companies.
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  But the spirit of free speech is being infringed in a way that you wouldn't
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  cop if it was being done to you.
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  And they would just sort of steer quickly and then change the subject
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  and then sure enough a couple of years later, it did happen to them.
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  But you were just going to jump in, yeah, go.
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  Yeah, no, I was going to stick up, not stick up, but sort of,
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  I think we're kind of old enough that we probably remember a time,
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  or at least like when I was in university and things about free speech
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  and controversial speech was being discussed,
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  it was such a different context.
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  And I mean that in this way is that you used to be able to cordon off your private life
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  from your public life and for instance, you could be a holocaust denier on the weekend.
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  And you know what I mean?
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  Well, like it, like you didn't have to bleed into your
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  nine to five job.
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  And so therefore, things about controversial speech could be looked through,
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  like that's a very different context to now where we have,
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  we seemingly have no division between our private life and our public life.
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  And it just makes it hugely different.
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  And in, like for instance, one way is that if you say,
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  oh well, it's okay to have a, we should be able to have like spicy conversations about the
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  hijab and whether the hijab is sexist or not and whether it's right.
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  Like sure, like yes, at a writers festival, yes, on the uncomfortable conversation podcast.
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  But then it becomes like, well, what about in your day to day job, if there's like a woman who's
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  got a hijab, like really, do you have, do we just go, well, you've got the free speech
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  to kind of be arguing with this woman at work about her hijab? And it's,
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  and it's so, it's so tricky, and it's even trickier.
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  It's even trickier because now the private life is the public life.
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  So then if someone's typing away about the hijab on Facebook on the weekend,
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  then like, it's not allowed the week.
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  Yeah, you're right.
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  I mean, I just like everything's letting to each other.
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  Rules of propriety need to sort of be on it.
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  I mean, I don't think it, I don't think it should be a question of, do I have the right
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  to say something negative about the hijab to a co-worker?
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  I do have that right.
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  The private company then has the right to sanction me or fire me if I'm being an asshole
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  in the workplace, but I do have the right to do it.
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  I mean, it reminds me the former attorney general of Australia, George Brandes,
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  who was a free speaker, wrote an op-ed that continues to haunt him
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  in which he was arguing for free speech.
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  And he made the point.
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  He said, people have a right to be bigots.
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  And now you go on any lefty, you know, forum that talks about, at the moment,
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  the word George Brandes, the word George Brandes comes up.
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  They're like, oh, the man who is in favor of bigots, the man who loves bigots.
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  Yeah, the man who wants bigots to be alive at the place.
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  Not understanding that the point he was making is like,
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  you do have a right to express opinions, even if they're unpleasant opinions.
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  It's just weird that we're now in this stage, in this phase of, I guess,
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  our information evolution, that every private expression of unpleasant opinions comes to bite
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  you in the ass in public ways.
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  I don't know how we put that genie back in the bottle, though.
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  I think there is a bit, I mean, this is all anecdotal and I can't prove it.
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  So maybe I should just go away, turn off this and just go and listen to my record play out.
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  But I do feel like we are easing into, I think it's hard to mob justice.
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  It's slightly harder in 2026 than it was in 2022.
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  I think that's certainly true.
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  I think companies are deciding, for instance, if we go back to the 90s and if you went to your boss
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  and said, oh, Joe, he's a Holocaust denier on the weekend, the boss would have the option of
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  just going, if he doesn't bring that into the workplace, like, okay, it's just don't worry,
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  whatever, I kind of just ignore it, I've kind of noticed, again, just totally anecdotally,
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  that big companies, I'm talking about, like, for instance, film studios, like Disney or whatever,
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  like, people are caught saying inappropriate things online and they're kind of not folding.
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  They're not, they're not holding like they were in 2020.
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  Not folding, it's just more like turning a blind eye.
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  There's a bit more of turning a blind eye, which, of course, like, all these things,
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  it becomes so tricky because it's, it's, it's gray and it's like, where do you draw
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  this line? And I think the other thing that's kind of powered, I think it's hard
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  and out to make these overgeneralizations that sound like, even sound like in an overgeneralized
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  way, they're the truth, if you know what I mean, like, because the classic way of looking at things
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  is through power dynamics. And I think, yeah, you could make these overgeneralization in the 1990s,
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  or the 2000s, or whatever, about, well, who's got the power to really screw over other people?
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  And I think, I think it's kind of harder to kind of have those hard and fast rules in 2026,
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  it seems like there's more fluidity over. And it's kind of harder to say, oh, well,
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  these people have the power, these people don't have the power. And therefore, we're going to
• 17:39
  draw up a little rule book based on that. Well, there's, I mean, I think it's murkier, I think,
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  I mean, in a healthy way, because there's less self certainty about how to speakable, you
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  must be to hold beliefs that are outside the elite consensus. I mean, there was a period,
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  it's interesting, because we're sort of talking about a number of different strands that all
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  are all overlapping. We're kind of talking about the technological information strand in the form
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  of the way that social media can compel companies by gathering a mob with flaming torches to
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  go and pressure the head of Disney or whatever to fire somebody. But then we're also talking about
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  a slightly different phenomenon, although causally related, which was the moral panic of the,
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  what you might call the woke era, right? So between sort of 2012, maybe 2013, 2014 through to 2022,
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  there was definitely a, an intense sense that anyone who transgressed a certain set of norms
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  was a heretic, essentially, and needed to be, and that it revealed something deeply shameful
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  about you if you said something on social media that wasn't quite, you know, up to speed with
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  the way that the elite progressive left saw whatever the cultural war issue was that you had
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  accidentally trodden into. And so it wasn't just that social media was able to exert an influence.
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  It was also that why should a person have a private sphere, if in that private sphere,
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  they're revealing themselves to be a total monster? Like it, you know, there would be things
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  that you could do on the weekend that would get your boss to fire you, even if you didn't bring it
• 19:18
  into the workplace, you know, being a member of the Ku Klux Klan and like, you know, fireballing
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  black people's houses or something like that, you can't just, no, no boss would be like, oh,
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  it's not even bringing into the workplace, you know, but what happened was that anyone who
• 19:33
  transgressed was suddenly sort of flattened into being that level of monster. So why should a person
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  who has, I don't know, expressed questions about pediatric transgender medicine in 2020,
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  have the right to have a publisher or have a column or, you know, be on the air or whatever it
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  might be because what they do in their private lives disqualifies them from any standing to be in
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  public. I think one of the reasons we're floating into a new era, again, this is, I can't prove it,
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  it's just my vibe. I've got the same vibe. I think one of the reasons is because you have
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  people who are progressive and they want to be really blunt in their protesting against Israel,
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  they want to be able to go, I'm going to hold up a poster of Benjamin Netanyahu and put a Hitler
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  moustache or whatever on him right. And they're, they're kind of realizing, well, that's, you know,
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  insensitive, but like, I need to do it. And so they can't maintain this thing of just
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  if anything's offensive, like, it should be out of bounds. And there, yeah, that there is,
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  I don't think there's been a reckoning of how the same people who would kind of,
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  you know, just in previous five years or 10 years or whatever be going, listen,
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  you've got to be sensitive about, you can't kind of, you know, upset at anyone like that.
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  Have now decided, no, no, you should be able to. And kind of like, yeah, I think there haven't
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  been a reckoning of that contradiction. What's the contradiction? Just tease out the Netanyahu
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  with a Hitler moustache, because I mean, I think any definitely could be could phrase speech
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  would include that, right? Yeah, yeah, because it'd be like, you have to be very sensitive and not
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  try to upset anyone and create and not do any microaggressions and all that kind of stuff. But then now,
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  the same people who held over generalization, the same people who held those kinds of views are
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  going, no, I want to do freaking microaggressions now. I want to be able to walk through the streets
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  of Melbourne with Netanyahu with a Hitler moustache. And I see. But then it comes back to what you're
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  saying about the power dynamic doesn't it? I mean, there, I don't think, I mean, I agree with David
• 21:54
  Badeel's sort of broad thesis here, which is that for the social justice left Jews have just never
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  counted as a minority to be included in the, the sphere of concern. So there are, you know, there
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  are unique sort of power. From that perspective, sure. But I guess it was more fringe that view
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  until, but yeah, okay. No, no, I think like five years ago, or whatever. And maybe someone who's
• 22:26
  on the left and doesn't like a fending would go, okay, no, let's not put a Hitler moustache there
• 22:31
  because it sets offensive or whatever like that. But like that sort of thing. Well, I mean,
• 22:34
  the Hitler moustache on Netanyahu, I don't think is a great example because he's a political,
• 22:38
  he's a politician. I mean, I could imagine myself putting in a moustache on, you know, a politician,
• 22:44
  especially one as odious as Benjamin Netanyahu from my perspective. But, you know,
• 22:49
  suppose you're talking about spray painting a swastika over the Israeli, over the Jewish star of
• 22:54
  David or something like that or, you know, spray painting Nazis on a synagogue or something like
• 22:59
  that. I think you're right that the, the intensity of the contradiction or the hypocrisy from people
• 23:07
  who three seconds ago in cultural time were arguing that microaggressions needed to be stamped out.
• 23:13
  And now I'm quite comfortable, you know, I suppose supporting the free speech rights of a
• 23:19
  person riding on horseback along Bondi Beach carrying an ISIS flag or something around, you know,
• 23:24
  intimidating Jews. But I think it was there prior to October 7th. I just think it was less
• 23:32
  salient. So we didn't really notice it and Jews just sort of shrugged it off. But I remember,
• 23:36
  I mean, I can, there was a famous Australian who I won't name for obvious reasons who it would have
• 23:42
  been about 2018 or 2019. And there was a newspaper about something that Israel was doing approving more
• 23:49
  settlements, I think in the West Bank or something like that. And she was, I was walking through the
• 23:54
  office at the ABC and she looked at the newspaper headline and she just said, she said,
• 24:00
  fucking Zionists with such bitterness that like I've sort of taken her back. And I thought,
• 24:07
  yes, she's not using the J word. She's using the properly approved Z word. But it was
• 24:14
  came from a place of like great kind of bitterness that I don't think she would have said about
• 24:19
  other countries that were doing, you know, that were undertaking mistaken policy blunders.
• 24:25
  So I just think it was there. There just wasn't much opportunity for people to
• 24:29
  glum onto it. Sure. And it also gets very murky about what you're getting on to definitional things.
• 24:38
  And so obviously when sometimes when people use language like that, but like they're just
• 24:45
  being sincere and they're just being fair enough, it's like, you know, I've been looking at
• 24:49
  this thing and I don't like the government policies or whatever. But there's definitely
• 24:54
  murky situations. And the best way to explain it is like from the other, everything so much of
• 24:59
  what Pauline Hansen says, she does a little dance where she leans into something and just uses
• 25:07
  the right words and then claims, oh, no, there's no second layer to this. There's no like
• 25:12
  for a non-Australian listening view as Pauline Hansen is a right wing anti-immigrant politician.
• 25:18
  So substitute your school. Yeah. So she'll kind of go, she'll kind of glum onto things that are
• 25:24
  kind of valid conversations if someone else was to have it and go, well, what's wrong with having
• 25:30
  a conversation about whether the hijab is wrong or not. And it's like, get it, fine. Stop. You
• 25:37
  know, you're being a bit tricky. And then the other thing of like all those things like where
• 25:42
  like, well, I can't be a racist because Islam's a religion, not a race and then kind of having to
• 25:49
  go through those sort of definitional semantic games or, you know, oh, I'm the thing is lemma
• 25:56
  for it because I said Arab, not blah, blah. So there's there's a, I think there's a bit of that in the
• 26:00
  new world. That's just, that's just disingenial. Well, sometimes when people are going Jews,
• 26:04
  when some, when some of those people are going Jews, they use these other words, not all the time.
• 26:08
  But sometimes and then like, well, what's wrong with that? I didn't say you. And again, she
• 26:15
  show how to show how to show how slippery this all gets. There was a dude who was, I think it was
• 26:27
  civilly was being taken to court because he said, he was marching down leading a chance, all
• 26:35
  Zionists are terrorists. And this Jewish guy took into court. And guess one of the samples,
• 26:40
  one of the precedents he used was that previously, you know, like a slightly different context.
• 26:46
  These Christian ministers essentially said all Muslims are terrorists. And the courts ruled that
• 26:53
  or some commission ruled that as, you know, as crossing a line. And so then, yes, so the guy who's
• 27:02
  trying to shut up the Muslim from saying all Zionists are terrorists, he's using the precedent
• 27:08
  of some other guy, some Christian said all Muslims are terrorists or essentially that. And
• 27:15
  yeah, so just these whole kind of word games. Yeah, I mean, I think it would be a lot.
• 27:19
  Yes, it does make sense. I don't, I think you're conflating a few things that may or I mean,
• 27:25
  I might be being too generous because I have a bias here. But the, like when you say
• 27:32
  fucking Zionists because Israel has done something, to me, the obvious thing that you should say if
• 27:37
  a country does something bad is fucking insert country here, fucking Israel. If it was America,
• 27:43
  you'd say fucking America or fucking Trump or something like that, fucking Netanyahu, fucking,
• 27:48
  you know, fucking Australia. The fact that you reach for a word that for, you know, over a
• 27:57
  century has been used in the protocol of the elders of Zion and all these, you know, the Zionist
• 28:03
  conspiracies, Zionist, you know, financiers that is tightly associated with all kinds of,
• 28:11
  I suppose hidden, it's got hidden baggage that word. And it's not just talking about the,
• 28:22
  what the government of Israel is doing, but about the notion that there should be a homeland
• 28:28
  for a particular ethnicity. And that strikes me as somewhat more, I'm not saying a
• 28:35
  furious, but problematic than making what I think is not a terrible distinction to make between,
• 28:43
  like you mentioned Islam versus Muslims and people who say, well, Islam is a religion. So I'm
• 28:48
  not actually being, you know, Islamophobic if I criticize Islam and it's not not being against
• 28:53
  Muslims. It may be the case that that's often used as a disingenuous argument by people who
• 28:57
  just are bigoted towards Muslims. But it's also the case that if you worry about the motivating
• 29:05
  power of ideas and you worry about fundamentalist believers in a set of ideas that leads them to do
• 29:14
  things like the Bondi terrorist attack, then you might actually be worried about a set of ideas
• 29:20
  called Islam whilst also loving and supporting Muslims. That doesn't strike me as quite as
• 29:27
  disingenuous or distinct. I don't know whether this is an adjacent thing or whatever, but I think one
• 29:34
  sort of general thing I, I, someone's having my head is a bit of if what's good for the goose is
• 29:39
  good for the gander. And, and like, sometimes these little tricky semantic things just, I'm kind of
• 29:47
  going, you know, that's just whistling your way around that like, for instance, I, there was this
• 29:52
  Guardian podcast, three non Jews who were talking about how whether anti-Semitism there's like,
• 30:00
  is sometimes anti-Semitism used and, or claim, then there's just a way to shut people up,
• 30:07
  or whatever. And it's like, okay, cool, cool conversation to have in the context of Australia,
• 30:11
  totally valid, or whatever like that. And then it's like, well, got a kind of a couple of dangling
• 30:16
  questions, my three non Jewish friends from the Guardian. Like, isn't that just begging the question,
• 30:22
  I'll do people make other claims, a bigotry that are to shut people up. And so there's something
• 30:28
  like a no, I don't know, this is not a good barometer because it's not like, I'm not saying it's
• 30:32
  political, it's just what's annoying me. It's like, it's like, get off, I can't prove this Guardian
• 30:40
  three podcastes, but yeah, I know, I know it's not being edge lords in any other sense. Like,
• 30:45
  I noticed you're two, like, you're not there on the podcast going, well, you know, people some
• 30:48
  would say things claim that there's something that is like, I'm a phobic or anti-black or whatever
• 30:54
  or homophobic or transphobic, and like, it's not really, they're just trying to shut people. And
• 30:59
  me just kind of knowing that these three Guardian non-Jew podcasters would be two chicken to kind of
• 31:08
  do what they're doing to the Jews. Like, raising the question, and it's just kind of personally a
• 31:14
  bit, I mean, it shouldn't just be personally irritating. It is hypocritical because, of course,
• 31:20
  it's true that cynical supporters of Israel cry anti-Semitism when it's not anti-Semitism,
• 31:29
  just to shut down criticism of Israel. That's true. It's also true that conservative imams will
• 31:35
  shout Islamophobia when people have legitimate concerns about the toxic misogyny and anti-Semitism
• 31:41
  that they might be preaching. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about
• 31:47
  and the Guardian will kind of stride around like, well, we'll go there. And this whole thing of
• 31:55
  like, we'll go there and then they kind of don't kind of I find personally annoying. And then I
• 32:02
  I'm just going to base my, I'm going to run for parliament and I'm just going to say to people,
• 32:06
  I'm basing all my things on what I find personally kind of annoying or whatever. So like,
• 32:12
  another example of that is like, just say a book festival and they'll, they'll, they'll
• 32:18
  platform people who I'm like so happy to. I'm like from the 90s man. I love the Jerry Springer show.
• 32:25
  I love WWE wrestling. I can tell I've seen the WWE actually create the Jerry Springer.
• 32:30
  I'll do all this counter-cultural stuff that like pushes, but I don't mind people like,
• 32:35
  oh, we're going to get edgy and we're going to ask things about Jews and Australian Jews even
• 32:40
  whatever. But it's like, you have these book festivals and they'll, they'll kind of like have a
• 32:46
  panel that will kind of poke at stuff around like Australian Jewish or a culture and it's like,
• 32:53
  okay, fine or whatever. But then they won't do it to anyone else. And then when some Jews
• 32:59
  inevitably complain, then apparently this is proof. This is proof that the Jews can't take it or
• 33:05
  whatever like that. And the experiments are wrong. God damn, have some panel where it's like,
• 33:13
  well, how is the way we feel to express ourselves? How is that compromised or whatever by the fact
• 33:19
  that our universities, we have so many international students or, you know, all that this,
• 33:26
  whatever, this guitar or whoever is their sponsoring feel like, let's have some other,
• 33:31
  just like, spread the edge lordiness. And then, yeah, and I think they'll be a more accurate
• 33:39
  kind of experiment about who's, yeah, because I feel like everyone or minorities will end,
• 33:47
  will kind of, you'll have people within them who will complain if you kind of start poking
• 33:52
  theirs. Did that make sense? No, it did. I mean, I think the only difference with the Jewish
• 33:56
  minority is that it has to do the complaining for itself, whereas the progressive left has taken
• 34:02
  on the mantle of traditionally marginalized communities as it sees itself representing. And so
• 34:08
  it does all the complaining on behalf of indigenous Australians, LGBT, QIA, plus Australians,
• 34:14
  you know, Asian Australians, Muslim Australians. So they don't actually sort of have to complain and
• 34:20
  becomes such winters because, you know, the former opposition leader came out, what, last year,
• 34:26
  and said that Australia's immigration might be impacting house prices, especially from China,
• 34:32
  where they're quite wealthy and buying up Australian property. And Australia's most prominent
• 34:37
  journalist said that's racist dog whistle and he's being racist. So it's not like a Chinese
• 34:42
  Australian person has to make that point. It will be made by a prominent white female journalist
• 34:48
  for them, but had he said something that was equally edgy about, you know, the influence of
• 34:55
  the Israel lobby on Australian foreign policy, no lefty white journalists would have got up and
• 35:02
  said, that's beyond the pale. You're making your insinuating things that rhyme with anti-semitism.
• 35:07
  So yes, comes back to the Jews not counting. I mean, it's also worth noting that that Guardian
• 35:12
  podcast that you're talking about, I'm taking your word, I didn't hear it, with three non-Jews
• 35:18
  analyzing anti-semitism. It's hard to imagine them casting three non-indigenous, like three white
• 35:25
  people to talk about indigenous issues or three straight people to talk about gay issues. So there's
• 35:31
  a representation question there too. Yes, I love everyone. You know, I love everyone except for
• 35:38
  Guardian journalists. I think I love Jews and Muslims and Palestinians and I love everyone
• 35:45
  except I'm Guardian journalists of Hobick. Okay, let's see how the reviews are when they review
• 35:51
  the documentary. No, I'm joking, Guardian. I've got Guardian newspaper friends. I'm joking.
• 35:57
  I'm from the 90s. We're kind of cheeky. And we say ironic things.
• 36:02
  One of the questions in the documentary raises is about like how what people regard as being
• 36:08
  offensive obviously changes over time and like pornography was like the big thing that people
• 36:12
  really hung up about being super offensive. And now it's totally normalized. The difference
• 36:18
  though is I'd like to know what you think about like offendedness that deems the person causing
• 36:28
  the offense as being like a monster or like an evil person who's I suppose it's the same with
• 36:36
  porn, isn't it? I kind of feel like people get offended by porn. They just personally think
• 36:42
  that it's icky. Whereas people get offended by what they would call bigotry or hate speech.
• 36:49
  See themselves as fighting a good fight. But do you see them both as coming from a sort of a
• 36:54
  purechanical place? Well, I feel like the point I might have badly made in my docko but I think
• 37:04
  it is an interesting point. My thing about pornography not being seen as offensive now but at once
• 37:12
  was, came from the point of view that when I was in university, I guess I moved in like
• 37:19
  university in general is progressive and I was in a progressive circle. And if you were
• 37:25
  if you held these progressive values in university in the 90s when I went there and just say you're
• 37:31
  against, I would just say you want a free East Timor and you're against nuclear arms and Indigenous
• 37:39
  rights and you want free range hens and stuff like that. Packaged into that was that pornography of
• 37:50
  the type of like playboy and or just what was seen as, you should be against pornography too
• 37:59
  because it objectifies women and it's sort of like it's part of the patriarchy or whatever. So
• 38:07
  if you were if you looked at pornography back then and you're like a progressive, you'd feel
• 38:12
  not guilt because like God is looking over you. It's like guilt because like Naomi Wolf or Suzanne
• 38:22
  Faludi or some other feminist is like look at who it's and it was just considered not the thing to do
• 38:30
  yeah it was considered a bad thing and it was like package it's like if you were left wing
• 38:36
  you were against pornography because it's bad. So it's not the pure thing. I'm not saying there
• 38:44
  weren't exceptions that proved the rule or there wasn't muddiness or whatever like that but generally
• 38:49
  and I was seriously really surprised when it came to like I don't know when I started noticing
• 38:55
  it like 10 years later and like when you're just talking to like younger people or whatever and
• 39:00
  just finding out that it's not a shameful thing in that sense it's not yeah even when it comes
• 39:09
  like a playboy or whatever or looking at traditionally kind of stereotypical beautiful women
• 39:18
  it it's like now it's not the sin on the left anymore and that's I think it's a combo of things
• 39:24
  it's like it's a knock on effect from sex positivity being a left wing value and that sex work is
• 39:32
  real work being a left wing value so I think it's like I'm not even complaining about this by the way
• 39:36
  I'm just sort of noticing it. Yeah so it's a point that the left and so it's about different things
• 39:42
  at a different point in time and the fashions will come again. Yes. In which case what's the
• 39:48
  yeah sorry finish that thought and so and I also think it's kind of interesting that if you're
• 39:53
  going to overgeneralize and say there was this woke reckoning of like how things were in the past
• 39:58
  and now you know we need no more diversity less racism in movies for instance or something like
• 40:03
  that that I think it is worth noting that it is interesting that something that was considered
• 40:08
  and no no from the by the left which was yeah pornography because it like it somehow has somehow
• 40:14
  not only survived that like like for instance it could be like some parallel universe where
• 40:22
  you know the left was just going oh no we just should ban or like because you know that you know
• 40:28
  there's definitely calls for like banning things or whatever like that because no no we just
• 40:32
  should ban or pornography because it's just bad for women and as a progressive and now we're in
• 40:38
  2026 and in the same way that we have to be kinder and you know more open to not upsetting or being
• 40:48
  oppressive and minorities women I know they're not technically a minority but you know what I mean
• 40:52
  but it didn't it kind of it's like yeah it's like I do find it interesting that pornography not only
• 41:00
  didn't didn't fought face that reckoning but it's kind of come back stronger than ever that's
• 41:06
  right I mean we're like lifting we could we could have the same cycle with social justice as well
• 41:12
  it's entirely possible that in the year 2050 we'll be back to a colorblind light on the hill
• 41:18
  and it'll be regarded as tordry and unseemly to turn the volume up on people's differences
• 41:26
  you know they're racial differences and their sexuality differences oh yeah totally
• 41:29
  gender differences and I think I think the presuming out I think what you're getting out there is we
• 41:35
  always think we're at the end of history and I'm so old now my child I'm even older than you if
• 41:42
  you can believe that considering how old you are the um I just we are never at the end of history
• 41:49
  is like I can't tell you how often you just like there's just something you go oh that's locked
• 41:53
  in like like just just look at something out like after 9-11 for instance how if you were like
• 41:59
  right wing it's like oh Islam's the enemy and stuff like that and then you don't pay attention
• 42:07
  for a while the next thing you know Andrew Tate from the manosphere is Muslim and he's far right
• 42:14
  and he's hooking up with these far right white nationalist and they all agree because they all
• 42:21
  they like being controlling of women or I'm not suggesting all Muslims are like this all white
• 42:26
  people are like this I'm just saying for the I'm just saying it's like it's absolutely if you fell
• 42:30
  into a coma like after 9-11 a few years after that and then you woke up in 2025 and found out
• 42:37
  there's this you know online there's this whole thing where it's like the kind of the people who
• 42:43
  would have been right really right wing and and Islamophobic after 9-11 and now
• 42:50
  reconfiguring into something where it's like no no no we have to join together to sort of uh
• 42:57
  yeah who the women and go the guys and go the trans and go the ju it's just it's just be
• 43:03
  I don't think we're at the end of history that's another thing I think about where there's hope
• 43:12
  if you're part of a minority who's feeling oppressed at the moment or put upon is you know
• 43:18
  obviously you have to fight against it but like we are just never at the end of history like um
• 43:24
  there's always there's always another plot twist and sometimes for the worst and sometimes for the
• 43:28
  bad better I mean it the other interesting thing that you would notice if you woke up from
• 43:34
  you know if you were put in a coma in the year 2000 or 2001 is not just the alliance between
• 43:41
  misogynistic uh you know sexist anti-Semitic conspiracy theory podcasters and uh you know
• 43:49
  influences and the right but there's sort of horseshoe where there are people on the left who
• 43:57
  believe the same thing I mean you know Hassan Pike and Tucker Carlson far left and far right
• 44:04
  identical positions on foreign policy and Israel and you know the war in Iran uh people marching
• 44:12
  across the harbour bridge opposing Israel were an interesting collection of far left green white
• 44:19
  greenies and well you bring up another Muslims you bring up another thing that I'm sure younger
• 44:28
  people just they would just not be aware of including you Josh that's my child but like in the 80s
• 44:35
  like Russia was such the enemy like that was the text like sting had to write a song um about
• 44:44
  the Russians love their children too and then you had like Fox News and they were like anti-Russia
• 44:52
  because they're the enemy and we're America and Fox News is Tucker Carlson and then I did have
• 44:57
  to like rest upon when Tucker Carlson started being pro-Russia like I know you know politics changes
• 45:05
  and it's not communist anymore or whatever but still it was just baffling to me that that Mr. Fox
• 45:12
  News is now somehow he's a patriotic American because he's going to criticize America and be
• 45:22
  pro-Putin and and regardless of who's right or I'm just saying it's a bit like the pornography
• 45:26
  it's just baffling that that's someone who was the supervillain the Russians for someone like
• 45:33
  Tucker Carlson um back decades ago he's now it's like yeah yeah what's what's going on
• 45:41
  and then and yeah there's so many straight the other like a little weasel we think I've seen that
• 45:47
  um conservatives uh get around is that for the first couple of Iraq wars like they were just so
• 45:57
  you know to be kind of Fox Newsy to be right-wing to be conservative America if yeah to be that
• 46:04
  was like yeah let's go freaking bomb those countries or whatever and the way that's like
• 46:09
  those sometimes the same commentators like Tucker Carlson or Ann Coulter or those ones
• 46:16
  kind of just reconfigured and now they're isolationists it I mean fine like people change their minds
• 46:23
  I'm not okay it's just like but it's fascinating it's like how do these people who were just
• 46:29
  so um not that and then suddenly they are that and then it kind of disappears down the memory hole
• 46:35
  or it's kind of like not even noted or uh that they've kind of just flipped totally yeah I'm not sure
• 46:42
  that Tucker has flipped I know what you mean I mean like the movement as a whole has obviously
• 46:46
  flipped like the entire Republican Party has has flipped from being um you know Hawkes to being
• 46:52
  isolationist because they were taken over by a populist um movement uh led by an orange clown but
• 46:59
  I think Tucker's always had his finger on the pulse of the populist descent from the traditional
• 47:05
  narrative like I don't think he was Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity even when he was at Fox which is
• 47:10
  one reason why the Murdoch's kicked him out because he was too unpredictable and too much of a
• 47:14
  of a road why do you think why do we never get I'm fast why did we never including Tucker Carlson
• 47:21
  why hasn't he just added clarity for why he was kicked out of I'm not sure he knows
• 47:28
  I'm not sure he knows any better than we do and we don't I mean I'm just speculating but I had
• 47:33
  the sense at the time that from people who had worked there that Lockwood in particular felt like
• 47:40
  it should be a tight ship and you know he they want the Murdoch's are perfectionists they want
• 47:46
  things that they can manage and that they can handle and that they understand and he was doing his
• 47:51
  own thing he was shooting from his own home studio up in Maine and he was like you know emailing his
• 47:57
  editorials in at the last minute and saying all kinds of things that they couldn't control it was
• 48:03
  just better to have a I think it was just a it was like a don't get too big for your boots like
• 48:09
  remember who the bosses are kind of thing I assume to get it was a kind of bold move by the
• 48:16
  Murdoch's because it was at a very precarious time as it still is for traditional television
• 48:22
  and for them to kind of take this guy who was ratings and just go like like I'm kind of I felt
• 48:31
  the time they fired him there wasn't really really the luxury to fight someone like him if you
• 48:37
  ran a cable television network that has to been been part of the point like you know you think
• 48:42
  you're indispensable but we're going to show that it doesn't matter what monkey we put on in that
• 48:46
  time slot we can feed the people who we know love us what they need to be fed and it'll do just fine
• 48:53
  but do you think Rupert does have that kind of is he just stuck in the old world and he doesn't
• 48:59
  understand not like the golem has been created and you don't control the golem anymore
• 49:07
  what were you going to say do I think Rupert does have that kind of what
• 49:11
  well no because I think when there were fewer channels and there wasn't the internet
• 49:17
  someone like Kerry Packer in Australia or Rupert Murdoch in Australia and in America could just
• 49:23
  coccally kind of go yep I'm going to do what I want with my television network and the shows
• 49:30
  within it and and my newspapers because they actually do have the power like you know like if we
• 49:38
  publish enough stories on the front of the herald son or something that negative about the
• 49:44
  labor party like it's going to work and I just kind of wonder whether I'm sure he's it does work
• 49:48
  anymore no I'm sure he's savvy enough to understand the way the winds are blowing but I think he's
• 49:52
  also pragmatic enough to realize that you operate in that environment that you're in and you've
• 49:58
  got to win that environment and the pie might be shrinking but Fox still does well in terms of its
• 50:02
  share of the pie and so you do what you can and I'm you know he's obviously shown an incredible
• 50:08
  mouse mode up to to know what you'd wear next to go so I'm sure they've got all kinds of plans
• 50:17
  the question of things changing and us not being at the end of history doesn't really answer the
• 50:21
  core question that you're wrestling with in the documentary which is why not ban things that are
• 50:27
  that we all collectively agree should be beyond the pale because you could just ban them when you
• 50:32
  all agree one way and then unbanned them when you will change your mind like you know you couldn't
• 50:37
  ban porn in the 80s and 90s and then you can unbanned it and you can you can ban hate speech against
• 50:44
  you know people of color and trans people in the 2010s and then you can unbanned it if you want
• 50:48
  you can go on to banning the other the next thing you hate why not well you might might be
• 50:53
  it's supposed to know that even though my enormous ego I am still willing to humble myself and say
• 51:00
  I do not have perfect answers to this but what I can tell you this is that one other tangle
• 51:07
  thrown in curveball is that people just with actual language can weasel their way not weasel can
• 51:15
  work their way around restrictions because there's been one in Australia recently where there's
• 51:21
  been calls I don't know exactly what the standing of whether you're allowed to say from the river
• 51:27
  to the sea anymore or not on what jurisdictions you are and what you're allowed to say it everywhere
• 51:34
  but it's become no that's not oh yeah okay no I'm not sure what you're allowed to say anyway
• 51:41
  you had people turning up the protest and they turned on this Johnny Farnham song from I think
• 51:46
  it's two strong hearts so it's a Johnny Farnham song from the late 1980s classic Aussie rock follow-up
• 51:54
  he's follow-up to the whispering jack album I think it's I don't know what his second album was called
• 52:00
  but I think it's from that anyway there's a song called two strong hearts and it just happens to
• 52:05
  contain the lyrics in this love song will be from the river to the sea and so therefore they just
• 52:11
  Israel yeah and they turned up so it's like if that phrase is being restricted there's a way to
• 52:17
  get around it but then also my child Josh literally people let I think I can explain the case
• 52:27
  and then we can work out what it means there's a Mexican white nationalist as you'll probably
• 52:34
  for me a someone who's like hung out and like with the far right and the white nationalist movements
• 52:40
  various projects it's very hard to find a real pure white white nationalist they're all like like
• 52:45
  you think Kanye's the only black white nationalist but it's like anyway moving on to like the
• 52:51
  Mexican white nationalist Nick Fruenters he will he's you know he's a proud to be you know anti-Semitic
• 53:01
  and everything and he'll he will get on his podcast and he'll say goes listen do you know how
• 53:07
  many Jews died in the Holocaust six million and I think it's just you're crazy if you question that
• 53:14
  because it was six million you'd have to be an idiot to question he literally says what you're
• 53:20
  meant to say in his words but it's being received as the opposite so that that's another thing with
• 53:26
  and just about I mean you can do it with quite the I sense of dripping irony and emphasis that he
• 53:33
  does when he does it but he's that he he does it to make it clear like I'm not gonna they're not
• 53:38
  gonna catch me breaking the rules so I'm gonna say the thing that everyone knows I'm supposed to say
• 53:43
  wink wink yeah oh and and just to be uh bring up the whole we're never at the end of history
• 53:50
  in a very minor way I mean when I'm not writing about these far right figures I generally try to
• 53:56
  it's just too much I like for listeners and viewers who don't know like I've written I've done a
• 54:00
  few projects including a book depends what you mean by extremist where I spend a lot of time
• 54:04
  I hang out with these three years and getting involved and it's just so therefore it's it's quite
• 54:10
  taxing and so therefore at the end of it I often like just unfollow around don't look at social media
• 54:15
  if I can't say anyway so basically I haven't been studying or focusing hard on these figures but I
• 54:20
  have noticed that Nick Fuentes who was up until a fortnight ago this you know leading anti-Semite
• 54:30
  why do you say up until the fortnight ago what's happened that I didn't notice well I'm about to tell
• 54:34
  you his latest thing is to talk about another far right figure and accuse him of
• 54:42
  trying to stitch him up Nick Fuentes up by getting him to try to um take out Jews or something
• 54:49
  like so he's basically he's he's not saying the Jews are okay or whatever but he's he's
• 54:54
  he's stitching up another far right figure by going this guy goes too far with the Jews
• 55:00
  and I'm gonna throw him under the bus and also he's being a man he's being a manipulator his anti-Semite
• 55:07
  isn't good so you've got like yeah so who knows like I guess they're called grifters I guess
• 55:14
  well I don't know if that's fair enough or whatever but there is an element where yeah talking
• 55:19
  about the end of history is we're all assuming that people are holding these views and there's not
• 55:25
  an element of clickbait or each right and also I'm interested in a total of the conversation
• 55:29
  that we're already love no even if he's even if he's sincere he's also a bebe he's like you know
• 55:34
  in his 20s so his views may change he may be different in his 40s than he is uh I do like also
• 55:41
  that my yeah sorry jumping my experience with uh uh these some I don't know with all of them
• 55:50
  with these far right figures is they do change but they just like go to some yeah it's like
• 55:55
  I had this one far right figure uh who I interviewed for my book about extremists and he was very
• 56:05
  he knew I was Jewish and he was going to I need you to go to um uh rabbi Gutnik and apologize
• 56:11
  on behalf of me because he'd been stalking him and making odious phone calls and he ended up in
• 56:18
  court and got charged and everything like that and he's going um you know I'm just I just feel
• 56:24
  really bad about it and he got apologize why are you the Jew speaker well well I didn't even know
• 56:30
  who this Gutnik was at the time I mean I knew the name Gutnik whatever anyway so I tracked him down
• 56:34
  and apologized and then the rabbi was like oh so he could come and uh speak about you know he's
• 56:43
  conversion or whatever like at the synagogue or whatever and I'm like no he's just flipped
• 56:48
  he's now against the Muslims right you find you find that you find yeah I'd be I'd be very
• 56:58
  interested if someone like Nyf Fuentes could just uh uh convert into not being a hater liberal
• 57:05
  liberal secular humanism uh yeah I do appreciate that you got through the entire process of
• 57:11
  developing this show and then recording the show and then voicing this show while pronouncing
• 57:16
  Fuentes Fuentes like it rhymes with the Fuentes Fuentes you say oh yeah but that's that's a more
• 57:26
  general um Fuentes a flitian of mine is it my slight the mispronunciation uh but don't blame
• 57:32
  don't blame the list but it's not the list but it's the Fu not the S it's the Fuentes okay also
• 57:39
  uh really so that's pretty interesting at the emphasis on the vowels I think I think it's a
• 57:45
  pretty interesting take of um well like we're talking about the Mexican white nationalist anti-Semite
• 57:53
  possible and it's like you know what the real issue is joint like the micro i just noticed
• 57:58
  it a lot micro good how are we supposed to do again Mexicans that you know exactly also the word
• 58:04
  the word offended when you say that someone's offended just say say you say I'm offended
• 58:11
  well in the in the in the show I do say offended you every time you say the word that was like
• 58:15
  offended I know that was definitely a kind of uh I wasn't sure well I think I said it
• 58:21
  I said no no I did say it like that once accidentally and then once we realized I'd stumbled
• 58:27
  instead of if you'd I we I kept it up and I thought it we I think it is a bit of a someone
• 58:32
  like a micro troll where I don't even know my motives like yeah let's say I'm like the joker
• 58:36
  off yeah we're saying I don't even know I'm doing it or whatever and I but I do think possibly the
• 58:41
  reason was in my madness was because of a test BS I thought oh maybe they think they can't correct
• 58:47
  me because it's like they're so nice um because yeah yeah maybe it's nice and it's like oh yeah
• 58:53
  you've got a speech speech impediment and are we being um yeah the fact that they the fact that
• 59:01
  you were permitted to make a documentary about being offended without being able to pronounce
• 59:08
  the word offended and say oh offended and do a whole section about Nick Fuentes without being
• 59:13
  able to pronounce Fuentes but saying through into into into I know uh is that a huge tribute to
• 59:20
  the tolerance of everyone involved in the project I think but I think I think I think
• 59:24
  in defense of me not that anyone's attacked me look how I mean in defense of me I think because
• 59:30
  when I when when I mean SBS if we're having like some little like oh I want that in I want that
• 59:37
  or whatever like that because I'm like mainly coming from a storytelling perspective that I think
• 59:44
  that kind of makes it easier to kind of have these back and forth because like I'm not going to really
• 59:49
  be like like I'm gonna like like I want more I like I want more outrageous people from all sides in my
• 59:58
  docker like if you don't think my docker has enough if the person from your side who's outrageous is
• 1:00:03
  not in my docker it's because I did not want to be in it and um there anyway I just think it's
• 1:00:09
  I have noticed I have noticed this I'm trying to give this as advice to storytellers or whatever
• 1:00:15
  like that that if you're kind of coming from a storytelling perspective like oh we need to do that
• 1:00:23
  because um that's going to make the story more invigorating or like if we interview this
• 1:00:29
  controversial person we're actually going to get that as opposed to coming from some like very
• 1:00:35
  political or reductive kind of even hand in a thing it's kind of a lot easier to have kind of
• 1:00:41
  conversations with your employer about that because you're not having a conversation about
• 1:00:45
  where so much you have a voice or the equal or whatever you're having it you and it's genuine
• 1:00:50
  it's like how do we make this uh better story how do we tell the story yeah yeah how do we tell
• 1:00:56
  the story and how do we entertain because you know these aren't bad words stories you know
• 1:01:04
  storytelling and entertainment is not like the enemy of um yeah conveying ideas or whatever
• 1:01:10
  and sometimes you get the thing in order to actually get a message from it so it has to have a
• 1:01:14
  story and be entertaining otherwise people aren't going to watch it and but I think I also think
• 1:01:18
  it's beyond that I think if you try to tell an interesting story and don't in this is in my case
• 1:01:23
  and just go I'll listen I'll leave it to a later cut to the kind of smooth things out of your
• 1:01:27
  like usually the reason you're finding when I'm doing so if the reason I'm finding the story
• 1:01:33
  interesting and I want to pursue it that way is because there's contradictions and then you chase
• 1:01:38
  to country blah blah blah blah and I'm just going from a storyteller like how is this more
• 1:01:42
  interesting by leaning into the contradictions and then you end up almost organically without
• 1:01:47
  concentrating too hard of kind of like bringing up these truths that are sort of all all these
• 1:01:54
  interesting points that are often kind of not looked at yeah and so the the final act of the of your
• 1:02:01
  story lends where I would have expected it might which is with sort of hate speech rules
• 1:02:08
  around Nazis neo-Nazis and the impact on the Jewish community at the moment so it sort of
• 1:02:15
  expands out to you actually interviewing a fully fledged neo-Nazi who's such a Nazi he won't shake
• 1:02:21
  your hand because he doesn't want Jew germs on him and then talking about whether he can do a
• 1:02:27
  bit hurtful when he can do a Nazi salute so the we can look up the from the river to the sea
• 1:02:34
  I'm not sure about that but certainly higher Hitler and am I allowed to say that do we have to
• 1:02:40
  go I have to cut that out John you know the law better than I do if I'm talking about it no no
• 1:02:45
  I'm okay oh who knows I don't know um I mean that's what we're talking before about how
• 1:02:49
  everyone works around it's like it's so interesting the new internet language where people say
• 1:02:56
  unalived and they say all that kind of jazz and for people who anyway so I'm sure there's another
• 1:03:02
  way to say to normies oh that's it's it's dead like oh someone's committed suicide yeah
• 1:03:11
  and so but what's interesting yeah some of the platforms don't allow you to talk about suicide
• 1:03:15
  right or they need like sensitivity or they'll get flagged or something but you can so they use
• 1:03:20
  yeah but I think it's interesting because it's because it's evolved from like the first time
• 1:03:25
  it might have been seen as like oh this is ironic or whatever this is a funny way to say it or whatever
• 1:03:31
  but then just because of the algorithms and the AI censorship you know whatever it's like no it's
• 1:03:37
  just become part of the language like knowing you can't say the yeah you can't say suicide yeah
• 1:03:44
  so anyway the I don't know whether I can say it or not but the the the phrase of admiration
• 1:03:52
  for the furor of the Reich and the salute that I won't do because I don't know if it's
• 1:04:00
  yes legal or not these things you get them to teach you to do it and the two of you step out of
• 1:04:05
  the room I don't have a spoiler alert here so that you're not on camera doing it um how do you feel
• 1:04:13
  it's it it lands powerfully because it's clearly a different I think even non Jews would
• 1:04:18
  would understand it to be a different level of kind of menace then yeah other things that you
• 1:04:27
  could say or do short of actually attacking people or inciting them to violence just in terms of
• 1:04:32
  a thing that you could do in the street in front of people from a particular community that would
• 1:04:39
  signal to them that you want to exterminate them nothing lands quite like a Nazi salute uh yeah
• 1:04:49
  yeah so how do you feel about whether or not it's free speech to perform that I think uh
• 1:04:58
  no no no I think that as a Jewish person myself who's into uh you know a 90s kid when when
• 1:05:10
  there was a lot of counter cultural stuff and I was really open-minded and I think we are at a
• 1:05:16
  place where I've just been an idiot like I'd been an idiot to say oh yeah you should be able to
• 1:05:23
  do that or whatever and also in the broader context of like I mean first of all I should just do it
• 1:05:32
  you know and I think things have changed for Jews in Australia where I'm just like that joke's
• 1:05:37
  not funny anymore and I've just seen how Jews and you know post bond I and everything like that
• 1:05:42
  even though that wasn't done by Nazis um I just think like for instance I wouldn't if some
• 1:05:48
  indigenous guy someone went hail Hitler to him I wouldn't kind of stand up for it you know what
• 1:05:54
  I mean I'd be some like going I'm not going to be the biggest idiot in the world and go oh because
• 1:05:58
  I'm Jewish and I'm also into free speech in an angel you're like yeah you just should be able
• 1:06:04
  to do to us because I think I think the world has evolved to not only that's more dangerous but I've
• 1:06:11
  kind of let me explain it I'm being a bit tangly here I'm trying to I'm just sick of like
• 1:06:19
  me going you can be edge lords against the Jews and then finding out it's not going to be spread
• 1:06:24
  out to anyone else doesn't make any sense I'll give you I'll give you a better example right and tell
• 1:06:30
  me and I'll keep giving you an example until my point comes across I remember I went out with this
• 1:06:34
  girl for quite a while she was Catholic and I once and so I talk about things I go you know
• 1:06:43
  kind of the bad thing about being a Jew is like they say this the rabbis will say this but they're
• 1:06:49
  really just and they'll say I don't know I'm trying to think of an example although they'll say
• 1:06:54
  we're giving the stamp of kosher approval but you know how much are they actually are they actually
• 1:07:00
  inspecting the vats the factory and how much is it just sort of like just getting a stamp and
• 1:07:06
  it's a money making and then she'd respond with yeah you see the great thing about the Catholics is
• 1:07:11
  da da da da da da da da da and I'm going well hang on I would have never have trashed the Jews
• 1:07:16
  had I known you were just going to like not meet me halfway and was going to go big up the Catholics
• 1:07:21
  or whatever so similarly I just don't feel in 2026 in Australia in the light of things that have
• 1:07:27
  happened that I'm going to be the edgy Jew who's going to be like oh you know what you can
• 1:07:32
  hail Hitler or Jew when it's free speech it's like but I'm just not going to be such an idiot
• 1:07:38
  an anthropological kind of cultural argument about like what group you want to belong to it's
• 1:07:45
  not a it's not a philosophical argument about what the boundaries of free speech and offendedness
• 1:07:52
  be right I mean you forget about your reputation as the as the the edge Lord Jew and just the
• 1:07:58
  principled question of whether or not you know you know but I can only bring any code right to be
• 1:08:04
  a big it like does a person have a right if they really believe it yeah look if they're intimidating
• 1:08:08
  people they're going off to a crowd of Jews and they're like oh okay I should of mean yeah maybe
• 1:08:13
  that's one thing yeah but if they are in the okay it was a size of well the public exercise of
• 1:08:19
  their beliefs in a park and they're all I don't know chanting I don't know but they would be
• 1:08:27
  chanting that would not be intimidating but still not to eat yeah uh is a I'd open question
• 1:08:34
  because a lot of the documentary is about the slippery slope you know yeah you ban this thing
• 1:08:39
  then all of a sudden a whole bunch of other things are going to be banned so it does seem weird
• 1:08:44
  that you then get to this one thing and you're like oh no we can ban that but I don't know if
• 1:08:49
  you do think we should no no no no no no I'm being misrepresent I'm being verbaled here
• 1:08:54
  dear viewer and my apologies well like for instance for instance if I found out that which did
• 1:09:00
  happen like in the with a bunch of white nationalist going outside a a mosque or something
• 1:09:08
  through Australian flags or like I don't I wouldn't kind of if the police came in and said you
• 1:09:15
  can't be here you have to go over there or something like that I'm not like oh my no you absolutely
• 1:09:20
  have a right to be going to bangstown and waving your Australian flags and the faces and Muslims
• 1:09:26
  or whatever I mean I don't I don't know I think it's ridiculous that you think that because I don't
• 1:09:30
  know whether draw the line somehow that invalidates my exploration and also me throwing things out
• 1:09:37
  to people no I don't I don't think it invalidates it I mean I'm just interested in whether you have
• 1:09:42
  I think it's hate speech by you against me I'm just guessing whether you have ideas about it
• 1:09:47
  because you've spent years putting this thing through the development process and then it gets
• 1:09:52
  and then come to the point where it's like obviously if you're intimidating people like if you're
• 1:09:57
  going if you're waving flags and people's faces as they're just trying to get into the mosque
• 1:10:02
  that's a class of things that's different from expressing an opinion the question in fact take it
• 1:10:06
  out of the physical realm and put it into the virtual realm where it might be a little bit less
• 1:10:11
  miss some easily misunderstood I do think it's a salient question which you don't have to have
• 1:10:16
  an opinion on but it's one that I wish I had a better opinion on of whether or not people should
• 1:10:21
  be allowed to chat on message boards and support each other as like the analyses or whether
• 1:10:29
  that should be shut down when that by the government when that crops up I don't know well there's
• 1:10:36
  another this is such a tangled way of looking at it but it's like no I'm not even going to say it
• 1:10:44
  because I feel like it's tacky or something I'm self-sensory myself don't sense you this is
• 1:10:50
  call uncomfortable conversations what are you doing Jon Safran okay well you know if someone
• 1:10:57
  I'm not comparing graffiti to being a neo-nazi right but you know if you're going to graffiti
• 1:11:03
  just get away with it and as soon as you're not you're not getting away with it stop whining your
• 1:11:07
  graffiti so man maybe if you want to have your little chats neo-nazi's just sort of
• 1:11:16
  meet up in real life what the hell I don't even know what I'm talking about now what I'm saying is
• 1:11:20
  as soon as you're not getting away with it stop ditching once you're not getting away with it stop
• 1:11:25
  ditching yeah whether you're utilizing a train or whether you're trying to overthrow the government
• 1:11:32
  and introduce a new third ray a fourth ray what do you think of the argument that if they that if
• 1:11:38
  we know if we know who they are then at least the intelligence and the police can track them so
• 1:11:42
  it's better to know who they are so you should let them gather and then you know sort of keep
• 1:11:47
  on them well then for one thing one thing one thing I do know one of the most really annoying things
• 1:11:53
  about you know the guardian non-Jewish podcasters putting out these things like oh you know is
• 1:12:02
  anti-semitism you know fake claims or whatever like that is that I think I asio discovers so much
• 1:12:10
  and stuff that you know they choose not to put out there and yeah I think there's a lot of danger
• 1:12:17
  like like seriously after monday it's like but all for instance after monday and also after the
• 1:12:22
  synagogue bombing bombing in fire in Ripon Lee at the Adus synagogue it's like I think it's like
• 1:12:32
  real and we have to sort of come up with we have to acknowledge them that those things are real
• 1:12:38
  and we can't kind of go well yeah I don't think it's five years ago or ten years ago where it's like
• 1:12:45
  this sort of public hatred of Jews is just some theoretical thing and and something that we
• 1:12:55
  shouldn't be worried about and something where we shouldn't be balancing rights with also let's not
• 1:13:01
  live in a country where synagogues are firebombed have you felt it does it does have you do you feel it
• 1:13:14
  oh yeah I mean I think the I think the real thing you feel is like when like people don't stand
• 1:13:21
  up for you like that's the real thing I'm like like Nazis like content and Nazis you know they're
• 1:13:27
  not pretending that they're on on my side or anything like that you know it's like so
• 1:13:33
  nice try going around with your hell hit-learing and your Nazi solution swastika but it's like
• 1:13:39
  like that's that's you that's just you being you but then like just this kind of finicky
• 1:13:46
  things are kind of and it's I find a baffling post monday that you can have a conversation and
• 1:13:52
  you know we're putting that to one so it happened what when did it happen December
• 1:13:57
  January, February, March, April what are we in May five months ago not six months ago you don't get
• 1:14:03
  to kind of park to one side um the Bondi massacre and you know and but what do you mean when
• 1:14:12
  you say the people don't support I mean this is what I mean this is what I mean and it's like if
• 1:14:17
  someone who's progressive posts something like all the inquiry the raw commission into anti-semitism
• 1:14:26
  and social coherent social what is it ahesion it's like it's bullshit because it's just
• 1:14:35
  there's it's exaggerating there's anti-semit because I want to say and it's just it's like
• 1:14:39
  no no you don't get to park the Bondi massacre at once like it's fine for you to say you don't
• 1:14:44
  think there should be a raw commission it's fine for you to say if you believe it like I I think
• 1:14:50
  it's going to be manipulated and things that I think should be criticized by Israel won't be able to
• 1:14:55
  like that's fine I'm not complaining about that I'm complaining about you parking to one side
• 1:15:01
  the Bondi massacre and just kind of going whoa how crazy is this some people are saying we need to
• 1:15:07
  have a look into anti-semitism and and yeah the way they de-anti-semitize the Bondi massacre I
• 1:15:15
  find and I've seen online I find that very interesting like like the absolute kind of tippy-toeing
• 1:15:23
  language where where somehow the two guys there from ISIS and says that's somehow separate from
• 1:15:30
  anti-semit or what you know why it's it's insane it's like and it's basically I'm not kind of
• 1:15:36
  willing to kind of go down there insane thought process like you don't get to park the Bondi massacre
• 1:15:46
  that happened five months ago to one side and go yep yep but besides that besides that you know
• 1:15:52
  it's from what else have you got besides that and like the brothers I mean yes yeah and it's like
• 1:15:59
  it's like it was like this synagogue this guy through some fire bomb or whatever at a synagogue door
• 1:16:10
  in Melbourne and then obviously people go this must be anti-Semitic and then when I went to court
• 1:16:15
  it was like oh no he's schizophrenic or something and then become well there you go more fake
• 1:16:24
  fake anti-Semitic like like it's the Jews fault that are their door yeah the door of a synagogue
• 1:16:29
  was fire bomb like yeah what are what jerks are the Jews to like get their synagogue fire bomb
• 1:16:36
  bias schizophrenic and who we later find out you know why didn't they get in a time machine and
• 1:16:41
  then after this synagogue was fire bomb why didn't they get in a time machine then go to the
• 1:16:47
  court case in the future where you find out that it's there that it's a schizophrenic and go
• 1:16:52
  and then the other whole thing is like well fine that not that that was a schizophrenic what about
• 1:16:56
  the one in Ripon Lee so we've got the other one which no one's denying was it's like anyway so
• 1:17:02
  that's why I pick a synagogue I mean it's because it was in the ether it was like a thing that
• 1:17:07
  was around it's like it doesn't have to how much motivation do you have to have for it to be
• 1:17:11
  orthodox I guess I guess that is this is another case of what's good for the goose is good for the
• 1:17:15
  gander is like if you're going to have some like slightly edgy conversation about well
• 1:17:23
  it's mental health well it's mental health in a lot of these
• 1:17:29
  bigoted like there's a layer of mental health in a lot of um bigotry towards people and there
• 1:17:36
  is I'm saying that anecdotally is because I've hung out at these rallies when I was like
• 1:17:42
  spending a love time researching my book and also other things and there's yeah there's a layer of
• 1:17:47
  it's not totally but there's a layer of that there so so you're right it's like you don't get to
• 1:17:52
  kind of just go well yes I think you're just pissed off at the hypocrisy I think you're just pissed
• 1:17:56
  off because right after bonsai there were a bunch of articles that that sort of emphasized the
• 1:18:02
  fact that it was Sydney's most classic beach and that the guns were used you know these these
• 1:18:09
  you know sort of military style guns that shouldn't have been on the streets and then in the sixth
• 1:18:13
  paragraph it would get to the fact that it was you know the victims were Jewish and everybody knows
• 1:18:20
  that if it had been a Ramadan celebration on the beach and everyone who was shot was Muslim
• 1:18:26
  the first line would have been about the minority group that was being targeted not the sixth
• 1:18:32
  paragraph and so Jews just curious yeah I think Jews can find a curious but it is it's just really
• 1:18:41
  interesting how people just see things from such different perspectives and which is fair enough
• 1:18:47
  because you've got different communities that are in trauma or an aspect of their their thing is
• 1:18:54
  trauma because of things have happened to their communities either now or in history or whatever
• 1:18:59
  like that and yeah it is it is crazy how I mean I kind of don't want to get too much into it
• 1:19:07
  because I'd have to like but it is crazy how people who aren't Jewish sometimes cannot see
• 1:19:14
  this and just have the worst possible spin on it like nothing's ever sincere what a Jewish person
• 1:19:22
  says or because that Jewish person is like clearly motivated by political things overseas that means
• 1:19:30
  no Jew in Australia is isn't and yeah it's just it's a bit yeah I mean there's a sense crazy
• 1:19:35
  and it's pointing a bit over sensitive and maybe we are a bit over sensitive but that's not
• 1:19:40
  an accusation that would get leveled at any other minority yeah by yeah by some you're right you're
• 1:19:47
  right if not by the yeah not by the if you're left I mean they would never say you know
• 1:19:51
  you know indigenous Australians should not should stop being so hypersensitive about white
• 1:19:56
  racism I mean that would be obviously an inappropriate thing to say they're entitled to feel as much
• 1:20:02
  agreement as they want to you know it's not it's not it's not the job of the white person to
• 1:20:08
  pronounce upon how black people should feel it's not the job of the man to pronounce upon how
• 1:20:13
  women should feel and it's not the job of the gentile to pronounce upon how Jews should feel
• 1:20:20
  here end up for sermon I've been your rabbi for the past hour and a half John it's a fabulous
• 1:20:26
  and fascinating documentary are you all interviewed out and exhausted from your previous
• 1:20:34
  encounters what's the just I just want to wrap on this what's the general
• 1:20:38
  tanner of conversations about this being in the media like what are people
• 1:20:44
  is any one of the most boring things you get asked about the documentary oh no I don't think
• 1:20:50
  it's a great I think it's a great hope is this is a great hope I think online and
• 1:21:00
  you normal people just shut up so they just don't want to get involved and so they're
• 1:21:07
  for online you can you can see that there's a big you know like division or whatever and
• 1:21:16
  but I think normal people this is just against anecdotally I think normal people watch my
• 1:21:20
  documentary don't even think it's that controversial and that's because normal people go oh he's
• 1:21:26
  just saying that normal people like oh if you say but but this thing of I think there's still a lot
• 1:21:36
  of people out there who would be like would look at my documentary and go oh John saying that
• 1:21:42
  yeah it's really hard to draw lines because if you're kind of going to a sense of this and what
• 1:21:47
  about that and then it becomes ero becomes tricky because like for instance a bit in the documentary
• 1:21:52
  where I say it's it's going to be tricky to oh I show it's tricky to kind of comb out homophobic
• 1:21:58
  hate speech where it's like well the Bible and the Torah and the Quran yes for all of you go
• 1:22:04
  well you said the Bible is not saying the Torah and the Quran anyway we like how are you going to
• 1:22:10
  comb how are you going to ban homophobic hate speech wherein these scriptures it's got explicit
• 1:22:16
  stuff about um stoning gay men and then it's like does that mean the Bible's banned or whatever
• 1:22:23
  like that and I think normal people would watch my documentary go oh that's interesting I haven't
• 1:22:28
  really thought about that before and of course John can't give an exact answer but thank you
• 1:22:33
  you're like I'm really getting the feedback I've had a couple of normies watch the dockhoe
• 1:22:39
  and they don't know what the they just think it's like oh yeah that's John and
• 1:22:43
  don't do another thing and John being a bit interesting John's being interesting and they don't
• 1:22:48
  they don't see the maybe what yeah non-normy people who will just be
• 1:22:55
  oh well why did he not interview this person or why did he that a da da da da da da like so that's
• 1:23:01
  the great hope I think I think there's lots of normal people out there and I don't I don't
• 1:23:06
  agree with you that everyone's normal I'm talking about the normal people and I think normal people
• 1:23:11
  watch what people are normal not all people I said oh yes by definition the normal ones are normal
• 1:23:17
  and they receive it normally not like us weirdos yeah uh John delightful to see you again
• 1:23:23
  congratulations on the dark thank you it's really good to talk to you again and you're in it by
• 1:23:27
  the way yes that's right pleading my bleeding heart victim cancel culture card yet again
• 1:23:38
  the thing I remember about it whenever I think about you in this doggo is how you turned up and
• 1:23:43
  you had this great jumper well you it wasn't on but you it was more like you know those 1980s
• 1:23:48
  movies where there's a frat boy he's got he's was it slung over my shoulders like sort of
• 1:23:55
  yes over your shoulders it was such a style it was such a strong look and I wanted you to keep that
• 1:24:00
  on but you insisted on taking it off I didn't know you well enough then to kind of get more
• 1:24:04
  aggressive and so I just let you get away with I don't wear a jumper with the arms over my
• 1:24:11
  shoulders as an you say you didn't wear it was a warm it was a surprisingly warm day and so I had
• 1:24:18
  to put it somewhere and I didn't want to stretch the arms by trying to run my waist but I'd
• 1:24:23
  felt like it would be pretentious to be wearing it in the show pretentious in the street as well
• 1:24:29
  I wish my show was more about this not my next show I'm gonna pitch John Safran's fashion
• 1:24:37
  jamboree I like it I go around to contentious political figures but just talk about their fashion
• 1:24:42
  choices thank you John say thank you