Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Rhythms of Writing 2023 | Guest Glenn Packiam Enneagram Three

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Rhythms of Writing 2023 | Guest Glenn Packiam Enneagram Three · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean writing is such an interesting thing because people think, well, i i is that just, you know, for authors or whatever, but but I I I think there's something in the way that we are made that when you actually start to write, you unlock something in your brain.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know all the science of this.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's studies that have been done about this, where we don't quite know what we think or what we feel, and then we start writing, and these words begin to create order out of chaos.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something like that Genesis 1 thing where the earth was formless and void, and then God spoke.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so words bring order out of chaos.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, your wholehearted living coach.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad that you stopped by to spend some time with me.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Are you curious about the Enneagram?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to learn biblical truths?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: And have you wondered if there are life rhythms that will help you thrive?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, friend, you are in the right place.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: For six years, this podcast has focused on sharing conversations with my friends about life, business, motherhood, faith, and all things Enneagram from a Christian perspective.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: I truly understand what it's like to juggle everything as a wife, mom to three teenagers, a pub, and all while building a growing business.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: In front, I haven't always done things with clarity, peace, or joy.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: But still, the Lord has taken my broken-hearted pieces and healed them so I can live with whole-hearted wisdom, to provide women like you with a step-by-step process so you can get free of anxiety, shame, and frustrations that might be holding you back from thriving.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: I pray that the Lord speaks to you as you listen today and that you would invite your friends and family to join the fun conversations.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Are you ready to laugh a little and learn a whole lot?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty, let's get to the conversation.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Today I have my longtime friend Glenn Pacium on the podcast.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And by longtime, I mean over 20 years, which is fun to say and also makes me gulp just a little.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't had the opportunity to hear Glenn preach or teach before, well, I'm thrilled that I get to be the one to introduce you.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Glenn is an Enneagram 3-wing two.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's a husband, dad to four kids, and the lead pastor at Rock Harbor Church.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Since he and his wife are the author of the Intentional Year, I have decided to invite him on to talk about the topic of write, as in the writing rhythm for this year.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: I do believe that Glenn is the first guy to appear in our annual wholehearted rhythms podcast series.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm thrilled to have him be the one.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Now, way back in the day, Glenn's wife Holly was on the podcast as well.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: As in back on I think episode 30.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that crazy?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you'd like to get to meet Holly and have her talk about the gift of story, the link for that can be found in the show notes.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I truly am so excited for you to learn from Glenn on the topic of writing and how he has used it as a spiritual discipline.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I love journaling and I use it to communicate with the Lord.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I also have shared a lot about that and I won't dive into it today, but I'll link to that episode in the show notes.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so thrilled that you are here with me diving into these wholehearted rhythms.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: I really believe word, worship, right, and wait can really set you up for the year, the wholehearted year you really desire.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's get to the conversation.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So Southern California is treating you well.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's beautiful there.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: I do love visiting.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely beautiful.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's no denying that.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and we're love, I mean, we do feel very at home in the church, and it sort of represents kind of um, you know, very similar values, but the best of what we would hope to to be and be part of.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and and there's a lot of rebuilding to to do and and uh and it's been great.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's great people, great, a great team.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we're really, really enjoying uh enjoying it and um and grateful to be I mean, feel very at home.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's amazing.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to know because I haven't like I've meant to go find out.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure they have a podcast so I can listen to the sermons.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: But um, what how does it how does it work to bring your Anglican flavor into it?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because when I talk about some of my spiritual background with people, I'm like, yeah, I kind of have this Anglican bent and you know, so what does it look like?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, you know this from Southern California.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's cool if it's brought in as sort of like a creative, newish thing, as opposed to let's do this because it's old, you know?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say it's I'm not in a hurry to automatically like copy and paste.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're for example, we're not doing weekly communion right now.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think we could get to that place, but I'm not in a hurry to get to that place, you know?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then we're also introducing a lot of spiritual practices.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like this whole series we're in right now is about spiritual practices for the new year, the intentional year kind of stuff.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And there's the prayer of examine, and there's a prayer of confession.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's tools that actually are familiar to a number of people, and some of that is because people have been through the Talbot Viola Spiritual Formation Institute kind of stuff.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So there's some familiarity, but it's not necessarily widespread.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: But but I feel like we're in step with um some of the folks from the staff team in particular who are wanting to lead the church in a broad array of prayer practices um that are not just contemporary or charismatic, but also contemplative and ancient.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think in that sense it's been really great for the formation side, just purely on the liturgy and the Sunday.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm slower on that, you know, and haven't felt as much of that need yet, you know.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's so anchoring though.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I was telling uh Annalise and I were just talking about the comic book of prayer and talking about the theological mystics, trying to categorize that term in a way that feels a little bit more uh comfortable.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: But we were just talking through some of that again, the comic book of prayer and just going back to uh especially the season of grief that has been long and that we have gone through as a family, some of those anchoring rhythms that have been critical to just have the prayer for you, to just read it aloud and have it kind of prayed over you and it come out of your mouth in a way that doesn't require quite the effort.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yet there's so much beauty in all of that.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's so well said.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like it's like um sometimes the burden of ex of extemporaneous prayer or praying from your heart is like, but I don't know what to say right now.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and when you pray these words, you're you're not just praying words written for you, but you're praying with people who have prayed them, you know, for hundreds of years, which is a really you can almost imagine yourself being carried by them, which is a beautiful thing.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I like that.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I like I actually have not imagined that, but I'm going to now.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really good.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, there's there's so much.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we have years to catch up on.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's not gonna happen in this little conversation, but I would love to know because we haven't gotten to explore this together.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I can't even remember if Holly and I talked about it because she was on the podcast years ago.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like way back at the early days of Simply Wholehearted.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: But uh Enneagram types, tell me a little bit about your journey there.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's made some waves recently in Christian circles.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: I've already written the book.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Should Christians use the Enneagram?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: We already have had that conversation.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna say, judge it by its fruit.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe it depends who you're learning it from.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for you, what's what's your experience then?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: How has it maybe edified your spiritual life and marriage and parenthood?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's funny because you the Enneagram sort of gets it on both sides.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: You get the psychologist, therapist, counselor world who who sometimes say, Hey, hang on, this isn't scientific.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then you get on the Christian side, well, this isn't theological, and it's from demons.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'm I'm with you.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like judge it by its fruit.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And also that's the reason we, you know, it's something that you can find useful.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if people don't find it useful, that's okay.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I I have found that it's um, I mean, this is maybe a heavy way to say it, but it's its benefit is existential, not ontological, meaning you don't have to say this is who I am, like the Enneagram defines me, the ontology, you know, it defines, it's definitive of my identity.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: But existential meaning this is how I discover myself, or this is how I name my experience of myself, or maybe even um the way I it's helpful to name my motivations.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, in so much as it's a tool of self-discovery and of naming some of our motivations and becoming aware of some of our drivers and uh fears and dark sides and and and desires, I think it's r it's been really helpful.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've I've not read as nearly as much as as many have, but I've read a you know a handful of books.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And like most people, you dive into the ones, the chapters of the books that you think maybe your numbers, you know.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've I've I've gotten into it to kind of to kind of identify, I think, okay, I think I'm here, I think I'm there, you know.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I've also done the there's like a webs um test that you can do, which I know testing is kind of a weird thing, but but that was an interesting one because I I worked through it with a spiritual director who helped kind of uh me understand some of the report, quote unquote, and to say, hey, this is not just your number and your wing or your arrows, but there's also some other numbers that you try to pull from.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the way he put it to me was really helpful to me is he said, Imagine there's like a you know, uh your tool desk or your tool table, and you keep reaching for tools that you're not actually uh best at.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So when you reach for this particular tool, uh it's not great for others, you know.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you function within this space, actually these tools are more of uh a wiring that that it works well for you, you know.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that is brilliant.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love how you articulate that, of course.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because I would say from the outside looking in, knowing your dominant type, you also have this bent um of acquiring knowledge and the investigator.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you're just really smart, Glenn.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just call it what it is.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so it is it is something that's tied that you've probably reached out to build your toolbox that maybe was a stretch for you.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, but it's also come together in a way that really has made you who you are today in a way that is it's bringing greater good to the body of Christ in the long run.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I I would imagine your family would say greater good to them too.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So let's hope.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now remind me, what type is Holly?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so she would would say she relates most to the nine with an eight-wing, and then I relate most to being a three with a two-wing.
• 11:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Although sometimes when I test it comes out as three with the four-wing, but that's where it's like, well, the test is helpful to a point.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: But really, if it's a it's a discernment tool about your own kind of inner motivations and fears, uh, then then the journey of self-uh discovery is more important than the test, right?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes tests can create more confusion.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: We have to really be aware of how we're answering them.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And are we prone to manipulate?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I oftentimes say, hey, listen, do the test, but answer it as you would your 18-year-old self.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much more honesty in those moments, in those how you made those decisions, what motivated you.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And because really the Neagram is about helping us trace some of our story, some of the narratives that we've bought into from the beginning, and also to explain the lens of perspective that we've carried with us from our family of origin and all of that.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where it is really helpful to, as you've used it with the spiritual director, that is what the original intent I think really the greater benefit is.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and why I love doing what I'm doing, because that's what I get to do.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes helping people, oh, you thought you were wearing this lens, but let's actually see the original lens that you had and explore it through that story.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: What's interesting, because I was thinking in the back of my mind, the nine, the three combination for you guys.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a common combination of marriage.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's very interesting.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I love the beauty of it because it it demonstrates the desire to maybe yoke yourself with someone who has a strength that is not necessarily easy to access, but it is yours to access.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, just a real little glimpse, and we'll go into even maybe how it's impacted your journey of writing a book together.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: What does it look like for you and Holly throughout your 20 plus years of marriage to see the strengths, the weaknesses, and the pull that that has sometimes probably created?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's that's absolutely true.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: That that's great.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I I think um um, you know, when when I am driving or kind of you know pushing to to to tackle another project or something, um it does work for me to slow down and to let the nine in her just say, hang on a minute, let's be present in the moment.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Even that time-oriented stance, you know, the nine I think being more present and the three being more future, I'm very much like, what's next?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and she's like, Let's stay right here.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so helpful to me.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then the times that I might want to get a little bit wound up because I can see I can I think I can see what's next, and so therefore we need to do these three things in order to get to that one.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the nine um in her can even pull me into the nine that I can access of detach a little bit from this, um, you know, maybe even differentiate from the the situation of of angst and and and you know, slow your heart rate down and don't don't be so stressed about this or that.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that's good.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then the times that she leans into her eight wing where she's got a strong kind of conviction about something or or what needs to get done, that's a good space for me to lean into my two uh wing and say, well, let me help uh with that, you know.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes and the conflict is when she's in that eight space and I'm in that three space.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like that, that often that's where the bad, you know, not so great there.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or at least when you're not quite on the same page yet, when you are bringing in the different opinions with that straight.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: But but that eight and three can actually work good on on in um like when we made the move to California.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she was like driven and made the made it happen, like the packing up the house stuff.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: But and I was doing some other parts of the process, but she so that was like, okay, we're we're in sync here, and this is fun.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, uh, I love it.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just so fun to hear stories about how this plays out and understanding the uniqueness of our who we're partnered and paired with in life and what does that look like to both thrive and also navigate some of those obstacles that kind of you know, it happens in all relationships.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I recently was coaching a uh client who's a three, and they recently realized that um as a couple, they both were threes.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so just I know, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: The fascinating dynamic of that.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so talking about how even being so similar, while there's a lot of benefit to it, it still has its parts where if you're both passionate about something and it's not the same thing, watch out.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: It happens to the best of us.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we every year with Simply Wholehearted, uh, I think this is our seventh year.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: I keep meaning to count back correctly because the time flies when you're having fun.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I've engaged the community in this idea of three weeks to New Year.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: What does it look like to just go back to the basic rhythms, spiritual rhythms that help us set and orient ourselves in a way that brings more helpful uh ideas to our mind, um, sustainable habits, and and really gives opportunity to us to hear from the Lord of what does He have for us in this year ahead.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so those pillars with the wholehearted rhythms have been word, getting in the word of God, worshiping.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know a lot about that.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually how our pass first cross.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: You were the worship singer, songwriter, and all that.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Look at you now.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then um, and now and writing, uh, we've tapped on the word weight, and we won't talk about that right now, but writing has been not only a spiritual discipline, I think probably for the both of us, but it's also been a critical piece of what it is that you're doing with ministry.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: So writing is twofold.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Writing is also declaring.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: It represents a reflection and processing.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: It also is about declaring what is ahead or making plans or how to get clear and intentional.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and writing is also um just just a way to speak to the future, right?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: To get out words that we hope would bless and benefit others.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: So writing is multifaceted, it's not one-dimensional by any stretch.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that I was so excited when you were able to make it um to have a podcast in time for this topic, because you could speak to all of that.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just curious for you, what is a writing rhythm look like for you and how has it shaped you over the years?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, Amy, I love that you the way you're describing that, like those practices to enter into the new year, because that's very much um it resonates with what we were trying to do with the intentional year book, you know, this um phase one, take uh, you know, kind of reflect back on the past season, the past year, using a tool like the prayer of examine, and then waiting on the Lord, listening for a word or a phrase for this season or this year, which doesn't have to be spooky or magical, but just some sense, some nudge, some direction, some fruit of the spirit that you're you know and then and then taking an inventory of five kind of areas of your life, uh prayer, rest, uh uh renewal, relationships and work.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then identifying spiritual practices that can kind of you can build into a rhythm and then eventually put in your calendar um that that uh reinforces kind of desires in those five areas.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, very often there's one or two practices that actually speak to all of those areas or or several of those areas at the same time.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when you mention writing, I mean writing is such an interesting thing because people think, well, i is that just you know for authors or whatever, but but I I I think there's something in the way that we are made that when you actually start to write, you unlock something in your brain.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know all the science of this, I'm sure there's studies that have been done about this, where we don't quite know what we think or what we feel, and then we start writing, and these words begin to create order out of chaos.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something like that Genesis 1 thing where the earth was formless and void, and then God spoke.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so words bring order out of chaos.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, some people are verbal processors, and that's great too.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I wonder if for all of us, some process of writing is a way of bringing order out of the chaos uh of our lives and starting to say this is what's going on.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: In any case, that's that's my experience.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So writing in a journal, physically, pen and paper, you know, is an amazing way of kind of saying, I think this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm sensing from the Lord.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's there's there's other tools we can talk about later with Evernote and all that, where I'm jotting down ideas and fragments and paragraphs that later on become more of a public writing, writing for someone else's sake, uh, as opposed to the writing for my own sake.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: This so well said, of course, in in a way of like, hey, this is an invitation to bring some maybe a little bit more sanity and clarity to your life, even.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And absolutely, I would echo the sentiment.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many studies out there of the power of a pin to page is is instrumental.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I I can definitely testify to the work of it in my life.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, where did this idea of finally like what you and Holly have done for years together come to the idea or get to that point of like, hey, maybe this is a book that could help others?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was ha it was Holly.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've done this for we've done this retreat where we followed the sequence of event of practices um for at least 12 years, right around that.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, so over the course of of the years, people have said to us, hey, tell me about this retreat that you do.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we'd post about it on Facebook or whatever.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for for a few years, Holly has said, we should, we should write a book about this.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been like, I don't think so.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants to know about that, or you know.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, well, maybe, you know, COVID happened, and we're like, gosh, all of us are with without rhythms right now.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're totally in disoriented uh space and time, disorientation with regard to space and time.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe this is the moment.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I had some you know, conversation with uh actually she had some conversations with the publisher, and then I floated the idea to uh my Agent and he was like, Man, this is it.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we began just putting it out there.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we're grateful for for Nav Press for believing in it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And um and it ri it it has been encouraging to hear feedback from people about this is because our again, our hope is to make it simple and to make it clear and to just to guide you along the way so that a person isn't left saying, Well, how?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do I do this?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what do I and it and you know the truth is we we've all got enough to do.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so the last thing this book is meant to be is one more thing to do or one more resolution or goal.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's not.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually a framework and uh and a template to help you simplify and clarify um what God is doing in your life and then and then partner with him in that.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: As you've written it uh for, you know, the idea that maybe a couple could get away and do this involved with a retreat and elements like that, which my friends have heard me say too.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is a rhythm that my husband and I have done.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, it came from because my birthday is at the end of the year, and I'm like, this is what I want for my birthday.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: So and then it's you know, he definitely owns it as well.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: But does it do you have to be a couple to go through this book and have it work for you?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about that.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, none at all.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: In in in fact, we were very careful throughout the book to tell stories from people in in various seasons and various stations in life.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and actually we know people who who um, even though they are married, they do a retreat like this on their own.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or do a retreat like this with friends.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um So I I think there's many ways to do it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do uh we we have encouraged people to think about a communal way of doing this so that it it can be really personal with you and the Lord, but but even imagine this where you get to you know a group of friends and you say, Hey, let's each of us do this, and maybe the retreat or the the sequence of weekends uh that you work through these these exercises, uh maybe you're doing that on your own, but it's still a community because you can check in with each other.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: How is your retreat?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: How is your uh process of working through the prayer of exam?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And how is your rhythms of intentionality for these five spheres?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're at the very least sharing it with other people, even if you're not going on this retreat and doing these exercises with other people.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we would encourage that, but no, it's not it's not a couples thing.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um having said that, as you and Spence know, and as we have, you know, know, there is something powerful about uh couples experiencing this together.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that you're intentionally growing together.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the great challenges in marriage is to, you know, people say we grew apart.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know what?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Growing together uh has to be done purposefully.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is one way uh to make sure that you're growing together.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And as you mentioned, doing it communally provides the accountability.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: When we write things to ourselves, there is power in that getting it again on page.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: But when we are sharing it with others, when we kind of add some sunlight to it and bring it out into the light of day, there's a lot of power.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's I think it's speaking it forth, but it's also um by bringing it to the light helps shape is this really what I want?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is this all there is to it?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, or oh, maybe now with the light of day I see it a little bit differently of how I want to carry this out or walk it out.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So much so much power in that of being able to share it with others.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: I love the idea of doing it with small groups and and things like that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And um, if if you're in a season where you don't really have anybody else to go through it with.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: For those who haven't um done this type of thing or who really new to that rhythm of writing, how does your book helps get people take or how does your book help people take that first step or two to kind of get that ball rolling in the right direction?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I I think again, if you've never done this before, you could start with one or two key pieces of it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the the simplest one to start with is the chapter on the prayer of reflection, which is basically our riff on the the older prayer of examine from Ignatius.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's uh you know, a few key sort of steps.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, number one, rest.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So let your body and mind come to re a place of rest.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, begin to review and just start thinking about the previous season.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe a year is too much.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I know, you know, I was just talking to some people who, when they do their review, they just use their phone and look through pictures, and that helps them change.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's great.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, the trick with that is that may only capture the high points because most of us don't take pictures when we're sad, you know.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a talk there.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then and then and then thirdly, from review, you go to rejoice and you start to say, gosh, I I just gonna write down some things I just want to thank God for, and then fourthly, repent.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a harder one, but you but sometimes some some of us might feel like it's hard for me to say the words I'm sorry, but maybe you could write them first and just say, you know, I I regret this, or I am I'm sorry about this, I repent of this.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then finally, fifthly, you know, uh is to request, and that's to request kind of God's grace uh and strength for this new season.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just one piece of the book, but that may be a perfect place for someone to start because um for for so many of us, Amy, we just move from one thing to the next, from one year to the next, and life is in cruise control or autopilot, or as I like to say, it's your default settings, and nobody we shouldn't live on our default settings.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: God wants more for us than that.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so just that just that act of interrupting the default setting by reflecting on the previous season, that could be a game changer in and of itself.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Ugh, that is so huge.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: It really uh so many people who have come to the wholehearted community or who I've coached.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: The the root of what they're looking for is greater intentionality.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: And this is that process.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: This will help you, just simply writing it down and starting with the simple steps that you laid out there that um that will carry, that momentum will really carry you into more intentionality on lots of aspects of your life.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you'd probably agree to the sentiment, even if it's just one thing in your life that you're getting intentional.
• 28:24
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Getting comfortable with that will lead to other places where you're like, yeah, maybe I need to be more thoughtful about this.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that um in there's a business book called The Power of Habit um that I read years ago.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he, Charles Duhoog talks about this idea of a keystone habit where you change one thing and it interrupts the whole cycle or it kind of tilts the whole system.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I mean, for us, really in the book, we say the keystone habit is making time for that retreat, you know, or or some people, if you're too busy to take the overnight retreat, do a sequence of Saturdays.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can do three Saturdays in a row.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but either way, that's a keystone habit that will change the whole thing.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: But even within that, I'm I'm going micro, micro here.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you're like, well, I can't even do that.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: This prayer of examine is in itself a kind of a keystone habit because it just gets you to stop and to reflect and to pray and to write so that now you have a record of it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So think of what you'll accumulate over time.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this sort of written record, like you said, putting it out in the light uh that allows you to be aware of your own growth and fruitfulness in the Lord.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: I will probably end up posting about this, but I was I'm I'm leading an in-person retreat next week in Texas, and I can't wait.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I really there had been a topic that I want to formulate a a deeper um like guide and stuff for the participants.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that I wrote a ton of notes about it a while back in one of my journals.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: So of course I cannot find it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, that means that I've pulled out I don't even know, like 50 journals.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, sometimes it's overwhelming and I laugh at myself and I'm like, I should probably burn this.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: But you know what?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's record of God's story and his work in my life.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's record of if anyone did read it, oh yeah, she was very human.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: She struggled with all the things.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but she loved the Lord and she had lots of crazy ideas, didn't do them all, but at least she did some of them.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but but just looking back at those things, and again, when I had little babies and it was like I could write down one sentence because it was something cute they said, or it was a quick prayer to the Lord, help.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um it all has added up over time and is is this collection, if not probably for no one else but for myself.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful record.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it makes me think of Joshua 4, the those memorial stones, you know, that you uh God tells the the people of Israel, do this so that one day your children will say, What happened to your hair, you know?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um I I think that's so powerful.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I do think, you know, I I alternate, I do have an Evernote uh notebook or a notebook within my Evernote thing that that is called prayer journal.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's so inefficient, but sometimes I'll be writing something, I'll be like, oh, actually, that's something I want to have digitally because I can search back that.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: So then I'll either scan the page from my journal or like rewrite something.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: But but you know, um whatever.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think the pen to paper thing, there's a magic when it's a bit stream of consciousness, you know, because you're like, I don't know, and you're just drawing stuff out and right, you know.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then the digital one is I don't know.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a good system for when to go digital and when to go analog here on the No, the point is doing it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I was felt, I think in the long run, uh just the spiritual direction that we do in particular, especially if we're writing the word of God or I'm writing out prayers, ideas, or or maybe concepts from what I'm reading.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: Those, they've actually been stored away in my brain somewhere.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And they they thanks to the Holy Spirit, I think they've just come out at the right time and they've been accessible when they've needed to.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: And even though I haven't found the notes that I've needed for next weekend I'm trusting the Lord is for some reason has a different uh plan for all of that.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: But oftentimes when I'm sitting with people, we can't prepare for the spiritual direction element.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like we we just have to be ready.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I feel like writing and all of that practice um does help that in the long run.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I I too struggled with the should I should I do this electronically or not?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then I just saw it's the default goes to the old fashioned way in the end.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, before we sign off here, I thought would be fun to have you answer the three rapid fire questions that we're really diving into just this month, but specifically, is there a new rhythm or habit that you're gonna try out this year?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, that's a good one.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um at least one you want to share with everybody.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, my goodness.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am trying to leave my phone down in the kitchen and not up in my room.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm trying to read as the final thing before turning off the lights.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I know, I know this is like a maybe some people already do this and that you know it's great, but man, I've fallen into the bad habit of having my phone or slash iPad up there, and I'm I'm I'm trying that new rhythm this year.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I I think all of us could probably be encouraged to do that.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: So so good.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, how about a worship song?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a song right now that's been on repeat for you or maybe even has framed out um the year ahead?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like there there it's it carried me through so much of last year, and I think it continues to.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a song called Abide um by Aaron Williams and Aaron Keys.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And Aaron Williams recorded it on his album, but um, it's also on the New Life Worship album, and it's um it's a beautiful song that that um brings me a lot of strength.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so good.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, those are good ones.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: We'll put a link in the show notes that way people can uh listen to that really good.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Love Aaron Keys.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what is maybe the word or scripture that you have for 2023?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because we talk about that here too.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's woo-woo.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think we can kind of go through some processes.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: It looks different for everybody.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes sometimes they've been not so good words, sometimes they've been great words.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes there's just, you know, a lot of great scripture to back it up.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you get a word that sounds really great, and then how it pans out, you're like, oh, that's actually what you were doing, Lord.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um my word for the year is courage and the story is in book five where Jesus tells them to put their boats out to the deep after they've been, you know, already tired from fishing.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know all of what that means, and certainly um hope it doesn't mean anything too difficult, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: But but no, I I I do think even in the season of leadership and life, uh that's that's a word I'm carrying.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's hope it's the boat with the oars or paddles and right.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, are there any last thoughts or an a word of encouragement or exhortation that you would like to leave us with today?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I think all of this is so wonderful, Amy, and I love what you're doing in the way that you're coaching a community to to really um think carefully about about our lives with the Lord and and with one another.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just, you know, the the the final encouragement is just what Jesus said in John 15, you know, if you abide in me and I abide in you, uh you will produce much fruit, um, but apart from me you can do nothing.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the this there's this mystery of participation with Christ where it is all Him, and yet He invites our participation with our effort and our intentionality and all of that.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and grace does not mean there's no effort or work required.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, grace is the power to be able to um make these efforts and be intentional.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh grace reminds us that the source of it all, the source of the life itself is Christ.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh if all else fails, friends, uh or actually no, uh at the every day, at the start of it all, um just remind yourself of your dependence on Christ.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And not if all else fails, but the if you don't, I guess what I'm trying to say is if you don't get any of your your rhythms or practices for the year, but you're clinging to Jesus desperately with your heart and soul, uh, with those desperate prayers that you talked about, the help lord, or you know, uh that's that's uh a delight.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a joy.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's the that's the heart of all of this.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and amen.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: That'll preach, Glenn.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for your time.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's of course a joy to catch up, uh, just personally, but I'm thrilled uh to get to share your wisdom with my friends.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I just look forward to to seeing what the Lord does through both of your lives, your family's lives, and um, just the goodness of the fruit to come from that.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Amy.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Great to talk to you again.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I know there were a lot of mic drop moments, but did you catch that part when Glenn talked about writing, bringing order from chaos, and that writing can also help you figure out what you're feeling?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: That is powerful.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope it's something that if you haven't tried out or experienced yet, that you'll give it a try this year.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping you're feeling inspired to buy a journal, or at least maybe dust one off that's been on yourself and halfway written in, or maybe you've gotten a couple pages in and gave it up.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I really would love to invite you to put a time on your calendar or maybe even a standing appointment to write.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: I encourage you to try it for a week and see if you like how you feel after prioritizing the rhythm of writing.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you want to be a writer someday, or you're just wanting to exercise this idea of bringing order from chaos or investigate your feelings anymore, I know that journaling will help you.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: And once you start, well, maybe you want to keep doing it.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it's just a few minutes or a few lines, it counts.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can even do bullet points too.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I told you I wasn't gonna go into all the ways to journal.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I have shared some more of my thoughts on writing an episode that'll link here in the show notes.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, it doesn't have to be paragraph after paragraph.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Find your unique journaling style and then own what works for your personality and lifestyle.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now, next week, I have a friend of the podcast who spoke with us a couple of years ago about a Bible study, and she also gave some incredible insight about being in Enneagram One.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's been an episode that is one of the top downloaded episodes, and it's also been an episode that a few of my Enneagram clients, specifically Enneagram One clients, have referred back to to tell me that they have learned from something that she had said, or Jen shared things that gave them words for something they've maybe experienced their whole life.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, Jen Michael is back on the podcast and we're talking about the topic of weight.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Her new book and Good Time, it's fabulous.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, she just has a lot of wisdom.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: She loves the Lord, and you can tell that she spends time with him in rhythms of worship, writing, and she knows something about what it looks like to wait, wait for God's timing, wait for him to go and wait for the direction that we all need.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, I can't wait for you to hear that conversation.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: And also be on the lookout.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's some bonus conversations coming up at the beginning of February and even within February, some amazing guests that if you haven't heard of before, I can't wait for you to meet and some new people that I'm so excited to introduce you to.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: So until next time, friend, continue to pursue God's perspective, purpose, and plans for your wholehearted life.