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Hellwhalers | Running the Game w/ Moss Powers · My First Dungeon

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've lived a sinner's life, now you've died a sinner's death.
• 0:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: The cruel, cruel fate has cast you down to the wretched belly of the earth.
• 0:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: As your soul is mired with the burdens of your lived life, you begin to sink deeper, drowning.
• 0:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But before you give up, you're fished from the briny depths of hell's oceans, a figure stands above you and reaches down a nodded hand.
• 0:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: As you cough and sputter the saltwater from your lungs, the figure calls himself your captain and explains the deal.
• 0:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here up on the seas of hell, a hell whale is said to be so unholy that slaying such a beast can earn you a place back in God's grace, and the captain has something that'll help find one, but he needs a crew.
• 0:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's you.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome to my first dungeon.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: The tabletop role playing podcast that helps game masters learn new games and make each one better than the last.
• 0:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Elliott Davis and I will be your host today, but I am joined by your guide and captain for this season, Shenukh to Sarah.
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, it's me.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm back and it's the first time since season two that I'm doing this.
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: season two, we're putting it back in the GM chair, and we're gonna put you through your paces.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: This season we are proud to be sponsored by our friends plus one EXP as we dive into the religious horror TTRPG Hellwailers.
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: This game tells the tale of cursed wailers hunting a monstrous
• 1:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's no better way to help us get ready to play Hellwailers and to help you Shenu get ready to GM Hellwailers, then talking to the game designer, Moss Powers, who is here to teach us the rules and will prepare us to tell the best cursed story that we can.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Moss, thanks so much for joining us, welcome to the show!
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course, I'm happy to be here.
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hell yeah, dude.
• 1:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're very excited to play this game.
• 1:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hell yes.
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Moss, I read a little flavor from the text at the top, so I'm you might recognize, but in your own words, could you give listeners who don't know what is Hellwirlers?
• 2:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hellwriters is a Christian religious nautical horror 2D RPG of damned wailers set upon the oceans of hell, literal hell, where they are hunting a monstrous Leviathan whale for a chance at redemption of their immortal souls.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the brief pitch.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love a pitch that is so immediately evocative.
• 2:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's exactly what it's going to be.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: We also want a bit of a religious trend with playing Bremon recently and now and now playing this new new Christian imagery for us to play with.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So to kind of kick us off, you're going to be jamming, like you said, first time since season two, what are the biggest things that you are nervous about?
• 2:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: That maybe mosque can help you out this today.
• 2:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I've read the main book in the book of Leviathan, and I think like,
• 2:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: there's so much to play within this world.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the first thing I'm kind of a little bit nervous about is like pacing for a two shot.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like we're doing this in like two sessions basically.
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: So just like what does like what is the right amount of pacing in terms of like to we just jump into the action?
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like how much breathing when we get to the players?
• 3:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like can we fit fishing in which we should but like I'm nervous and scared about it.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and like doing like that's like I think the first piece of it.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've definitely truncating it shorter than three sessions is a little tricky sometimes.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I will say my best recommendation is don't worry too much about the exact numbers of souls.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can always have the captain like say I think we have enough or have the whale come when it needs to come.
• 3:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 3:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a big part of that.
• 3:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think you can definitely squeeze and fishing.
• 3:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: probably over a couple days of gameplay.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: But in general, I would just lean a lot on the tables, try to visit some locales if you can, and then just try to give a brief tour through whatever you find compelling about it and let the characters do their thing.
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Moss, this is a game that obviously has like religious imagery and religious themes at its core.
• 4:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of stories would you say like this game is good for telling at the table?
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: theme and tone and stuff should genic be going after while running.
• 4:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's been really good for telling stories where characters are
• 4:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: and vigorously good bad people where the characters have very clear flaws that you know listeners or whoever's playing might like might want to at first condemn them for their deeds but then kind of realize like what does the nature of like sin imply like does it mean they need to be condemned forever to eternal torment or
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: you know like that ambiguity of telling stories of like is this a good person or is this a bad person does it really matter does anyone really deserve something like hell yeah i like it does feel like the game does play at that nuance of like what is good and like what is evil like who gets to decide to side that like you right it really shines with anti heroes for sure
• 5:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Shinagai know we were talking in one of the things that, you know, we always want to do is set you up for success, but what you want to do is set the players up for success.
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe must what is like the kind of best ways that Shinagai can guide players into creating characters that sort of fit well into that kind of story?
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say give them room to like highlight their back stories is like a really nice one like their their mortal lives obviously played a big part of who they are and who their characters are so make make time for those flashbacks or those connection points.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: In some games I've played, the characters got all kind of new each other pretty well on the ship and in some games their back stories were like revealed to each other through play I kind of like when they're revealed to each other through play they're not sure what style you're doing it necessarily but there's definitely you want to make sure you can highlight those back story success really makes the characters more compelling yeah it's not just the environment it's not just the the things they do but it's also who they are right right right
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I like the idea of like, or just like, at least for like a more condensed game of like, the players, I'm sure like have been on the ship together for some time, but their back stories may not fully be known to everyone.
• 6:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that gives it that space of putting that in the spotlight's really good.
• 6:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, like Shinig, you also get to play a character in this one.
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel about dawning this role of the captain?
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I feel like,
• 6:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: another part of me that's a bit nerf not well not nerf like excited it feels exciting more than nervous of like oh cool like not only my like the guide of the game but then I also like
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: in on the stakes of like we got to get this whale with the players which feels really fun and like a piece of like obviously like every game is like the GM's a player too but the GM and players like I mean when I'm playing I'm like the GM's my enemy and I got to beat that get I've got to kick that person but but this feels like I'm also like invested in the success of getting this whale and like have to play to that as well as like helping push the story
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It does throw off that like instinct that I get of like these are my enemies right and I will say like that instinct is not entirely wrong either The captain's kind of played to be a little bit of an asshole and I think that there's a lot of room for antagonistic relationships with the characters And I think that really you can foster that with that natural instinct to be a little bit of a
• 7:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm attacking this little shit.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm worried you might have to phone too much on with the.
• 7:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess more on that, like Captain Guide split, like Moss and your experience running the game or when you've seen it run really well, how do people balance going in and out of like focusing on I'm the captain right now versus I'm the narrator?
• 8:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's it's pretty clear when you have like a captain scene you want to bring in and
• 8:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: like players that understand that level of theatrical like a showmanship, I think is really valuable for that.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you come in with a scene and you make a little moment with the captain, I think having players that are ready to like be receptive to that moment, react to it is good.
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: But until then, the game is largely like pretty free form, like there's fishing, but it's pretty self-directed.
• 8:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's like all the encounters, but those kind of come when they come, but in general, when the captain's showing up on the stage, it's usually like something that the players will pay attention to and something they will react to as it comes up.
• 8:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's like any other characters kind of, like in any context, of like any NPC is kind of like, it'll make sense to interact with them versus,
• 8:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: the GM happened to tell the story and or just like guy thing forward.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 8:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think when you're showcasing the captain or like when you're using the captain effectively, it's moments of like pointing in a direction or peppering the scene with like some
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: extra like reinforcement that this is a miserable place.
• 9:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: But in general, you probably across a two-shot, you'll probably only get to use the captain a few times.
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I would definitely make sure that those that like miniature arc you're trying to portray with the captain shows up of like this is a person who is in charge of you and ostensibly a bastard about what they do.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You want either some kind of conclusion to that or you want some kind of like, I mean, a lot of it depends on what endings you're using and how that final encounter goes, but you've got to be ready to like roll with what the captain's arc ends up as and how the players react to the captain.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I hardly feel about them.
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've had games where the captain gets killed because they just didn't like the captain enough that they they managed to get the captain killed and it was a very satisfying moment for the player.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's always on the table.
• 9:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: What does that look like?
• 9:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like how would you get the captain killed?
• 10:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have not a player, so I don't have any dog in this in this Yeah, no, we had one we played on the plus one exp live stream.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was like a three shot and in the final encounter Like the players were just so entraged with the captain the whole time But like I just had a moment where the whale just rocked the ship from one of the moves and I was like yeah The captain tumbles off and the whale eats him.
• 10:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was basically what happened
• 10:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: love that
• 10:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like, don't be afraid to use the captain for things like that, too.
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, setting stakes and stuff.
• 10:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess because digging a little bit into like the mechanics, this is a game that uses like an interesting sort of dice mechanic with through this game, Sikpo.
• 10:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know we talked a bit about this on your talk of the table episode.
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: But could you give us a primer on Sikpo and how it's used in the game?
• 10:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Sikpo, old gambling game,
• 10:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: is just placing bets on a board, kind of like a craps table, more or less, roll the 3d6, and then whatever comes up, we'll have a payout value, typically it's anything that is not the one on the payout, unless it is the one to one.
• 11:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you'll put in a certain number of souls, so if I put three on a total of 11 and then I roll an 11 on the 3d6 that pays out a certain number based on that roll, or if they lose the bet, they lose the bet, but
• 11:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a pretty straightforward game once you kind of understand it, but it is a little
• 11:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't go into too much detail in the book, unfortunately, but it is a little tricky at first, but once you get it, it's pretty intuitive.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I would recommend practicing a few roles by yourself for getting a feel for the game abstractly beforehand, so you're not trying to pull it through at the table and second guessing yourself.
• 11:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 11:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: It feels fun, and man, I love a little gambling game inside of the 2KRPG.
• 11:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that shit.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for those, those when at the table are we making those sick bow rolls in what moments, typically they're done once per night.
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So every game day has like a period of events that are usually reflected from the previous day as rolls.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then at the midnight is when the
• 12:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Towards the end of a game day, they'll all gather around the table and start gambling.
• 12:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can either include the captain or keep it secret from the captain or whatever you want to do about it, if there's different ways to kind of play it.
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But generally speaking, they should know that that's their cue to gamble is when the losing grandfather clock just strokes midnight on the ship.
• 12:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're going to always chime that when you need to pacing set towards the end of the
• 12:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'll have a sound cue for Yeah.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Gamble in time.
• 12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a lever that you have as GM to like kind of move the pace along is like okay stroke a midnight.
• 12:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love the fact that there's a care and further clock on the ship because that's an impossibility, but in hell we can do anything.
• 13:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's a literal grandfather clock.
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's really good.
• 13:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot more.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that's unique about kind of the way we'll be playing the game is we record virtually with people all over.
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any particular tips for because Sikpo obviously has this board to it for doing that virtually?
• 13:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is there any sort of quarks at it or setups you recommend?
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like using a VTT for it.
• 13:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've just defaulted to
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But having the board stretched out enough that players can see it, and then placing their tokens or whatever controllable figures they have on the board onto the squares that they're looking for bets on, just make sure they have access to multiple tokens that can move around, or if they want to map it out themselves, they can tell you what number they're on and you can move it if you need to, but that's my usual go to is I'll play virtual tabletop with it, but it should be pretty straightforward once you kind of like mark where the bets are.
• 14:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: on your board or like have it in front of you and you see it.
• 14:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Once when you when you look at you, you have both hellwaters out and the book of Leviathan, you know, these two very rich texts, are there things that like if you had a wish list that you would love to see used that maybe you haven't seen used or you just think are like essential things to be used in a game of hellwaters?
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do think in the original book, I wish I had prompted more results that put you to look house, because I think a lot of the low cows are really interesting and a lot of the items are really interesting, but those things don't really show up in the random tables as a GM, you just kind of have to direct players to them.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the book of Leviathan, I explicitly included them more into the tables so that those can show up more.
• 14:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're running a with content from Book of Leviathan, I would definitely recommend having both of those roll tables up side by side and just kind of choosing which result.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like the direction you want to pull in because you'll have basically two tables of random options right the Book of Leviathan's and the the court books if you're running with both.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, so that actually kind of reminds me of a thing that I feel like as a question we always come to with GM games and like as a hobby and on this show is like preparation and I know you're saying have these two role tables up and whatever I think role tables for GM I think that's probably on the lower side of preparation but what is the right amount of preparation and what are the things that should prepare for when when planning this this game.
• 15:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say be prepared with a few like either like NPCs ready in case they come to a local that has a few NPCs you want to introduce or come in with like the idea of like how you want to play a demon if there's a demon on the
• 15:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: The roll table or whatever like what your approach to those things is going to be but other than that like you're largely going to be at the whim of the the roll tables because it is very procedural right but just generally be ready to improvise and be ready with transitions and be ready with like a few backup stocks of like
• 16:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: be ready to play a character when you need to play a character.
• 16:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Be ready to pull an item when you need to pull an item, but they should have some prompts for how to contextualize them, but in general, you're gonna need a little bit of a tool kit of how to have those things ready, basically.
• 16:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: In terms of like not to take us off track, because it's such a shortened game, like using the like lore stuff, like in terms of like giving that to the players, or like what is the best way to disseminate the like lore of the world and such a lot of that stuff is better, like for the lore stories themselves that are in the book because those are better
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: color the the world a little bit but in general they are mostly like for longer form games yeah i did run that three shot i ended up putting them in dream sequences so every night they went to sleep they had like a scene from a dream once they found the first piece of lore cool that's fun
• 17:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you have enough days, if you have six days between your two days, or yeah, you're too shot, that might work.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, although do you remember that the whale encounter means they probably won't be sleeping on the third day or on the final day rather.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: For adding like things to the world, you can also pair them in twos if you want it to like.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: do a little exposition and, like, set it up in a group of three lore pieces or something instead of six.
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Six is a nice number because it divides into two and three, but you can do three a piece and just do two segments.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But they are a little blocky when you start reading them out in longer form.
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So just be aware of that.
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now there's there's some juicy stuff in that lore.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 17:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you mentioned it.
• 17:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to dive into it that the wailing counter is
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: a backup GM behind the scenes in the shadows and the thing that I'm I guess nervous about nailing is this is this hell-wailing counter so could you talk about what the hell-wailing counter is for the game and what your advice might be for for nailing that?
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so it is the final boss of the game obviously like it is the the thing between them and the ending the epilogue's
• 18:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say, if you can and you should have time for it, definitely get in at least one encounter of fishing, because fishing is the on ramp for how to run the Whaling Counter.
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is literally the same thing just with one table instead of three.
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that onboarding of how the not mechanics work with fishing is very important for onboarding that.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say otherwise, just when there's like lulls of like, oh, the whale dives in the water and you can't hit it this round, just like make sure you're keeping the narrative like urgency up.
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, like re-emphasize like the ship is rocking.
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's flooding full of water.
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like there's probably a giant storm going on.
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like all sorts of things happening, but like try to keep that narrative urgency high even when the like actual action might be a little lulled.
• 18:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 18:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, yeah, this the stakes of
• 19:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: You don't get this whale, you're not getting salvation.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: You have big dummies like you.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is what they're here for, this is the big fight.
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: So this whale is everything.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: The whale is everything.
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, there's a thing we talked about in the talk of the table interview about what comes after the whale, which is the epilogue.
• 19:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Shenukh, I'm curious on your end.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel about the epilogue?
• 19:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And have you read through them?
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what are you thinking about that moment after this big boss battle?
• 19:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, because I was reading the ones in the book of the Viathan and like the was the bigger fish one was one that was like, oh, that's fucked.
• 19:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, they're all fun and juicy.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess like in choosing them, it feels like kind of like as the narrative unfolds between the players and like whatever happens, like, yeah, like I'm just I'm like picking what fits right essentially that feels like a lot of power and yeah, very juicy and good.
• 19:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but like I guess like, yeah, said it's just like setting the players up to giving them that final piece and then they kind of take it away and decide themselves right.
• 20:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I will say you definitely want to make sure you highlight that like final moment as they're crafting the stew, because that is really important because that is their last chance to say something before the ending really hits.
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you do want to make sure that they have that time to like reflect with their characters on what they're about to do and the gravity of that and like what they think they're about to get versus what they're about to get can really set the stage for a good finale.
• 20:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 20:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Say more about crafting the stew because somebody who somebody might not
• 20:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh sure, yeah, so at the end, uh, when the hell whale is slain, every ending has this little beginning part that is pretty similar across all of them, where you're harvesting the meat from the whale and you're crafting a stew with your companions and you get ready to taste salvation.
• 20:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's that moment of like cooking it in the stew pot and the anticipation of like, what comes next?
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are we about to do?
• 20:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: What happens now?
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you really want to highlight that role play moment between all the characters and give them a chance to interact and get their final say and what they're doing before the epilogue hits.
• 21:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So make sure that they have some good connection moments, final words, final thoughts, and then you can run the epilogue, and then if they have anything past that, depending on their ending, you can always touch a little bit on it and reflect on it a little bit, but in general, that's their last chance to make a good role play moment.
• 21:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 21:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's like reading the portions,
• 21:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: giving them a moment of like, they're making the stew.
• 21:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like, what are you feeling?
• 21:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: What are you doing?
• 21:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then like, yeah, then going into the epilogue.
• 21:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Character acts, you're making the stew.
• 21:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Before you taste salvation, what do you say, or what do you feel, or like, you know, giving any of those moments to like,
• 21:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: bringing in any of that final thoughts that they really get a chance to put together before they end and kind of cuts it out.
• 21:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 21:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And is there a world where they lose to the whale?
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, that's that's that's that definitely a mechanical possibility.
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen it happen a few times.
• 22:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: What, how do you, how do you kind of land the ship in that case?
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it can be like an oof moment for the table, but typically, if they do, if the whale either rolls six on the three tables or if early in the game, there's a six, six roll and the whale shows up angry, um, both of those could be loose conditions pretty quickly.
• 22:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say, I've had it happen and it's definitely like one of those ones.
• 22:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: You just got to be ready to like improvise through in the idea of like,
• 22:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: This was the stakes, and you knew the cost of what you were doing, but like anything, like a TPK happens in a regular game, you just gotta be prepared to land it with grace, and there is an epilogue specifically about being defeated by the whale, but just be ready for that moment if it does come, because it is ultimately up to the rolls of the dice, and that's kind of what's a little bit tense about it.
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: The dice choose not me.
• 22:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's all the dice.
• 22:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I will say the temptation to fudge those sometimes as high, but I always am anti-fudge when it comes to that kind of stuff.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: You do you, but we're pretty anti-fudge over each other.
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hot take, but I like stakes.
• 23:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Love stakes.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: sort of starting to, starting to round maybe the corner on this conversation, I'm curious most, if you have like a key piece of GM advice broadly, maybe about anything we talked about or stuff we haven't talked about, and then maybe a piece of player advice as well that Shenukh and I could pass on to the players to the curse sailors.
• 23:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: As far as GM advice, I would say be ready to pace it out and be ready to like,
• 23:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: steer a little bit if you're running a too shot because just by the nature of it, like there's a lot to explore in Hellwailers, there's so much world, there's so many encounters that could really play out for a long time, but be ready to kind of round those out time-wise as you need to adjust the pacing.
• 23:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're running that too shot like, and they're running a little long on something, you can always make something happen.
• 24:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can always chime the clock or you can have the captain come in and make a scene about
• 24:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: throw out a random item find or some other thing to drive us to remind us what we're doing or you don't even have to rely entirely on rolling an encounter to bring in some of those ideas right you can have an open show up that points them into direction or you can have something appear on the horizon but whatever it is you just want to steer that reminder of what they're
• 24:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, don't be afraid to like pull in bits that like push them forward a little bit if they run long on things.
• 24:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say for, for pacing out at Tusha, what I usually do is I'll have like a day's worth of encounters and fishing and then the following roll table kind of depending on how long those encounters go.
• 25:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I usually start it out like day one, you're just fishing and establishing roll play stuff day two is those encounters from the roll table from the previous day.
• 25:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then that'll probably be your session one.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then session two is obviously gonna have to lead into the whale so I would do like one day of lead up I know time-wise the whale encounter itself takes around 30 to 40 minutes
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then with an Apple Log, it's like 45 minutes.
• 25:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, just be prepared for that.
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 25:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect.
• 25:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then player advice, I would say, just like, a whole nothing back, but general, general advice for stuff like that is like, you don't know what's in your character's heads until you put it on to the table, right?
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: We always say driving like you stole them for like one shots and short campaign.
• 25:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 25:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 25:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: 100% driving like you stole them.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Shenuk, checking back in with you, are there any things left, how are you feeling?
• 25:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are there any, like, other areas?
• 25:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You want a while we've got Moss here to help you?
• 26:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Any other things that you're worried about going into our session zero and then our first session?
• 26:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think 18 years of Catholic school have prepared me well for this.
• 26:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't do it.
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess the only other thing that I maybe wanted to talk about is in this game, like, what makes a good hell?
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like what makes a hell that's interesting for people to exist in?
• 26:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say making sure that the reinforcement of like it's miserable, but it's not in hospitable, in the sense that they're not in hospitable, not in unservival, right?
• 26:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's miserable, but that's kind of the point.
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 26:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you have this like it's always raining fire or bile or something horrible and like,
• 26:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's always going to be a problem when things happen, like nothing is convenient and hell.
• 26:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, it's miserable, right?
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not outright lethal until you get to the lethality.
• 27:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not trying to kill you.
• 27:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just trying to make you suffer, right?
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like having...
• 27:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: a space that like reinforces that this place sucks is is pretty good.
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Although I would say periodically peppering those reminders isn't in is good, but you don't need to like wax poetic too long about it.
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know?
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, making it miserable and like but also giving them the
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one of the things we talked about on talk of the table was that this game is at its core about hope, so on the on the reverse of what makes like a good miserable hell, how do you pepper that feeling of hope throughout for the players I think having like little tidbits of like
• 27:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: the imagery of like hope is really important.
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of the omens and a lot of the the imagery that kind of shows up in a lot of those encounter tables that really like touches on the concepts of like divinity and hope and like what it is, you know, some of it's religious iconography and it's classic form but like,
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: you have things like doves or you have like, you know, various rainbows in the sky or things like that.
• 28:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like none of them are as clear cut as they should be.
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's always going to be like a dirt twist to it.
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like there's something representing that there is something out there.
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But leaving it ambiguous enough.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes like dark enough that you can maintain the horror tone is really valuable.
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: there is I won't stretch to say like there is a god here but like there is like something here that is like worth having a salvation for, right?
• 28:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's there might be a place up there.
• 28:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
• 28:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Shannik, you feeling ready for this?
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm excited and I'm gonna hurt my players.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Gonna hurt him bad.
• 28:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Gonna hurt him bad.
• 28:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, most before we do our little outro, I actually just have a fun little question that I think we usually ask an interviews when we remember two.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would just love to ask for like, kind of maybe a favorite story from play that you feel like is indicative of like an ideal hellwailer's moment.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say probably the the plus one XP run through where we played the three shot having our character, Mr. Perse who's playing the greedy Mr. Perse was the greedy and they ended up being just kind of a bastard of a character like they were just so rod and the whole time.
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: and they were like making a snarky remark at these oil rig demons that were like on a oil platform firm, the book of life, and having one just walk up and stab Mr. Purse, I think was very indicative of like, these people aren't your friends.
• 29:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: This thing is designed to getcha, but having it just walk up and knife and the gut as a hello is a very appropriate
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: because a lot of those moments are going to be metaphorical knives in the gut, but that was a literal one.
• 30:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Metrax.
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm really excited for the season to see what kind of knives and knives in the gut that you plan for the players.
• 30:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Shenuke, thank you so much, Moss, for coming on the show and helping us set our cursed captain up for success.
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to let people know where they can find you and where they can find hellwailers if they want to pick it up?
• 30:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for having me on here.
• 30:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm super excited to see the run through of it.
• 30:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Moss Powers.
• 30:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can be found most places on the internet at Moss Dagger, MOSS DAGGR.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm mostly active on Blue Sky, a little bit on Tumblr.
• 30:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can probably find me on Discord.
• 30:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have most of my games under Bruce, tabletop games.
• 30:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm on itch, Bruce, tabletop games.h.i.
• 30:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you can find Hellwailers and Book of Life then on plus one EXP website, ttrpg.link-b-o-l for Book of Leviathan or ttrpg.link-slash-hellia for Hellwailers.
• 31:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's really where I'm at most of the time, that's all I got.
• 31:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hell yeah, and we will link all of that in the show notes and if you want a deeper dive on Hellwailers and Book of the Vythin You should check out Moss's talk of the table episode, which we did just a couple of months ago We'll also link that down below Shenuk you ready to set sail.
• 31:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we're gonna get them.
• 31:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna get them We're gonna get them.
• 31:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna get them.
• 31:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna get them.
• 31:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Brian's not here.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna get Ryan's not here.
• 31:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: Can't stop me now
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is all for this episode of My First Dungeon.
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Join us next time as we craft our cursed sailors in Session Zero of My First Dungeon Presents Hellwailers.
• 31:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And remember, if you're having fun, you're already doing it right.
• 31:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Bye-bye everybody!
• 31:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: Bye-bye!