Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Color | Laura Guido-Clark | S8 E2
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:26:00 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. We're joined by Laura Guido-Clark, who is an expert in color, especially color, materials and finishes, and we are going to be talking about the future of color. Laura, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ today. 00:00:26:02 - 00:00:29:14 Speaker 2 I'm so happy to be here, Lisa. Thank you for having me. 00:00:29:16 - 00:00:58:24 Speaker 1 Oh, I mean, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. Obviously over the course of your 20 plus year career, as an experienced consultant and color forecaster working in across textiles and interiors and and consumer products of all kinds. You have two companies now, one which you founded in 2017, which is called Love Good Color, which is really a consulting and methodology around color. 00:00:59:01 - 00:01:20:00 Speaker 1 and then the sister organization, if you will, the nonprofit Project Color Core, which we'll have a chance to talk about, and which, you know, I'm a huge fan and supporter of, but you're an international expert in this subject. You speak on design and the creative process worldwide. So I thought the future of color was a great topic for us today. 00:01:20:02 - 00:01:30:05 Speaker 1 So we'll start as we always get to start, which is in the context of your expertise in today's conversation, how do we define color? 00:01:30:07 - 00:01:58:12 Speaker 2 Okay, for me, I think it's really important to define it emotionally because there are many ways to define it scientifically. But what I feel truly matters is the humanity of color and how it touches our soul. So for me, I think about not only what we see, but what we feel. And that's my broader definition of color and most important, how it can serve humanity. 00:01:58:14 - 00:02:17:03 Speaker 1 I love that. I want to talk about the scientific definition for a second, because we're going to spend a lot of time on the feelings side of it. But my understanding, you know, I think about, like, and we'll talk about it a little. I always mix up whether white is the absence of color as it appears or whether it's all of them. 00:02:17:03 - 00:02:23:07 Speaker 1 And I think it's white is all colors together, and black is actually the absence of color. That's right, right? 00:02:23:07 - 00:02:50:22 Speaker 2 I think we have to define it also by light because what happens is that what what we see is actually what is reflected back and what we, what is absorbed, we don't see. And that's why colors so magnificent. Because it has to be in the presence of light. It's a wavelength. And that's why I love it too, because wavelengths can be felt, not just seen. 00:02:50:24 - 00:03:27:18 Speaker 1 it's so interesting. I guess in in the universe there must be infinite colors. However, because of the factors that contribute to our perception, they estimate that it's basically like around 7 to 10 million color variations that the human eye can actually distinguish. which still is a whopping, amount of colors. Even if you've ever taken a color theory course and you see the color wheel, there are certainly not 7 to 10 million colors on that color wheel. 00:03:28:07 - 00:03:35:20 Speaker 1 Can you talk about how color actually like, scientifically exists and what are the factors that contribute besides, as you just mentioned, light? 00:03:35:22 - 00:04:09:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, I mean, interestingly enough, we can see millions of colors, but we actually see more greens and we see any other color. And the reason why they believe is because we had to forage. And so it was a survival mechanism that we could see more greens than, than any other color, which I find interesting. color in and of itself is fascinating because we might see those, you know, see many colors, but it doesn't mean we have words for those colors or names for those colors. 00:04:09:06 - 00:04:45:15 Speaker 2 So that's a whole other, way. I mean, even in, in Alaska or in, in places where it's cold white might have many different names because it's a nuance of. So color is quite complicated in that way. And as a color person who works with companies, one of my difficult, most difficult assignments is actually to create neutrals that will last for ten years because neutrals have an undertone of another color. 00:04:45:17 - 00:04:53:09 Speaker 2 And so when people say, oh, it's just a white, I start laughing. It's like probably one of the hardest things, right? 00:04:53:11 - 00:05:02:12 Speaker 1 when we're going to have a conversation about specific white, that's all the hype. But. Well, we'll wait for a minute. But what is it? Why does it why does it you know where I'm going with that? Yes. 00:05:02:14 - 00:05:03:16 Speaker 2 I know where you’re going. 00:05:03:18 - 00:05:25:00 Speaker 1 White is a fascinating one because I remember myself when I was, was painting my house, you know, and I have a pretty I love color and have a pretty good sense for it, but it is, as you said, like if you're doing one room and it has different walls that get different kinds of light at different times and different heights and different aspects, it's very challenging sometimes to know what it's going to be. 00:05:25:00 - 00:05:53:22 Speaker 1 And then a different room. Pink actually can read as white or gray can read as white. And so I find it all quite fascinating. As you said, there's these factors which is like light plus the environment plus language. I think it's such a fascinating one. And culture, as you mentioned, something like, you know, depending on where. But it's also like we perceive these colors through the cone cells in our retinas, that really only perceive if I'm understanding correctly, as you said, those wavelengths. 00:05:53:22 - 00:06:00:07 Speaker 1 But like red green, I don't I'm not actually sure red, green and yellow or something like that. 00:06:00:09 - 00:06:21:20 Speaker 2 Well, I mean, we have primary colors, but each of them have wavelengths, red being the longest and the shortest being violet, which is next to ultraviolet it, which is why violet is so considered rare, pure royal. There are many different reasons historically, but also it's one of the hardest things for us to see because it sits next to ultraviolet. 00:06:21:22 - 00:06:40:19 Speaker 2 So it's a short wavelength. So you have all of these other scientific things that are happening with color. And I mean, interestingly enough, yellow isn't the longest wavelength and yet it's the most luminous. So we see it first peripherally, which is why taxis and busses and all those things are made yellow. 00:06:40:21 - 00:07:04:09 Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. So interesting. So let's talk about this, multi sensorial impact of color. which obviously has a very clear visual effect. But you've said it a couple times. It also has this very strong emotional impact. and a lot of your work focus on this latter part, this emotional piece of things. 00:07:04:11 - 00:07:04:21 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:07:04:21 - 00:07:13:23 Speaker 1 Can you explain why in your work and your experience now? Laura, color matters so much and the role it plays in our lives. 00:07:14:00 - 00:07:35:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I want to go back to the neurobiologist Mark Changizi, who actually studied why we see in color and what he surmised was the reason we're seeing color is to read human emotion. So the rods and cones in our eyes are shaped in such a way that it allows us to see the subtle fluctuation of hemoglobin on our skin. 00:07:36:00 - 00:08:12:03 Speaker 2 And primates who have less hair on their face, have rods and cones in their eyes shape more like ours. So if you just think about one of the reasons why to read human emotion, to me it's such a big signal of how big emotion is with color. And for me, one of the reasons why I pursued my own color system was because what I realized as we talk about the spectral part of color all the time, and yet in color saturation and brightness has, perhaps even a greater effect than hue itself. 00:08:12:05 - 00:08:43:02 Speaker 2 So those nuances create feelings, right? You can't just say blue makes me happy because we don't understand what blue. But different shades of blue make us feel different things. And those could also be influenced by our memories. And having a color memory is something we have to be very respectful of because if a client tells me that they had a terrible memory with a certain color, I'm respectful of that. 00:08:43:02 - 00:09:15:01 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to push that color. I'm trying to give him them, I'm trying to give them the attention that they desire. And I could do that through multiple different ways. Right. So, color is a language that's, it just precedes words. It elicits a response. You walk into a room, your eye goes to it. I mean, 84.7% of people say, I think that they they buy a product for color, like color is 00:09:15:01 - 00:09:27:13 Speaker 2 A huge influence in that. And so, you know, I feel like it's sometimes very underutilized, you know, as a tool in our toolbox. 00:09:27:15 - 00:09:58:24 Speaker 1 I want to jump to that commercial piece of it, and I want to come back to the emotional part. the commercial piece is interesting because a lot of your commercial work is focused on the conscious and unconscious influence that drive our consumer behavior. Yes. and obviously we are very consumption oriented world. And whether we're talking about cars and interiors or electronics or, you know, again, textiles and furnishings, consumer buying decisions, as you just said, are influenced by color. 00:09:59:01 - 00:10:04:20 Speaker 1 Talk, talk about that a little bit. Like what is the role of color in consumer buying. 00:10:04:22 - 00:10:37:18 Speaker 2 Well plays a huge it's a huge role because part of I think the beauty of color is that it allows us to see ourself in something, it allows us to resonate that this is something that I either covet or am I am drawn to. It might represent something that that's aspirational, right? But what it does is it triggers something in us that. 00:10:37:20 - 00:10:47:07 Speaker 2 Leads us to connecting to either the product or the brand and hopefully to ourselves. Right? 00:10:47:13 - 00:10:48:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:10:48:21 - 00:10:51:11 Speaker 2 So yeah, it's quite powerful. 00:10:51:13 - 00:11:06:15 Speaker 1 And you've done a lot of work. I mean, you've worked with obviously big brand names like Herman Miller now Miller Knoll and Flor and Toyota and Atlassian and Adobe and Toyota and Gensler and Google and Samsung. I mean, these are big, big international brands. 00:11:06:17 - 00:11:06:24 Speaker 2 Right. 00:11:07:00 - 00:11:22:20 Speaker 1 What is the kind of specific work you do to help these companies in terms of color and material use, to do exactly what you just said, which is to resonate with buyers and consumers in competitive markets. 00:11:22:22 - 00:12:06:10 Speaker 2 I mean, for me, my work is really steeped in a methodology. So it's not about trend or my personal opinion about a color. It's really about understanding what is happening around us. So emotionally and economically, socially, those things really matter to me so that I have a deeper understanding of what people need. And then I have another layer that I'm going to understand who the brand is, because I have to deeply understand who the brand is, and then I have to understand how they want their people to feel. 00:12:06:12 - 00:12:31:02 Speaker 2 Once I understand these things, then I have a deeper understanding of how I can move through a process and a rationale that gives my clients what they need to feel secure in these choices. I mean, one of the things I realize is that you don't just throw out a color when a production line is going to change because of what you said, right? 00:12:31:04 - 00:13:01:04 Speaker 2 There is a huge responsibility to the work that we're doing so that people are utilizing their resources. I might use a color to help sell another color, but we might not bank so much on that color. But I know it's what might move people towards that color. but I know why I'm using it. And so for me, I feel a deep responsibility to my clients that I'm putting in what they need. 00:13:01:06 - 00:13:15:16 Speaker 2 I'm not being excessive. I don't like to spray. I want to hit a target, and I want them to partner with me. So we have this very deep understanding of where we're going, and we know why we're doing it. 00:13:15:18 - 00:13:35:08 Speaker 1 Yes. It's great. It's interesting. I mean, it comes back to that emotional piece that you've you've talked about, which is, I mean, you have a bunch of different quotes. Laura, as I was researching for this and as I've, you know, we've obviously met a few times and I've heard you speak and give tours and all sorts of things, but I think on your website you specifically say color is powerful. 00:13:35:08 - 00:13:56:14 Speaker 1 It affects our behavior, our well-being and our performance. which I want you to talk about, but other quotes that really struck me as I was looking, it's like color has the power to change the way we see the world and ourselves in it. color is a way of telling the stories we don't quite have words for. 00:13:56:16 - 00:14:26:13 Speaker 1 Color reflects who we are and who we want to be. Color acts as a point of connection between ourselves and our feelings. And fundamentally, I think what you've said is that you believe that color is transformational. Yes. This is like pretty fundamental, deep, powerful, profound stuff. And I'd love you to share with listeners and viewers more about these belief systems and statements. 00:14:26:15 - 00:14:58:10 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think for me, Lisa, one of the things that I saw was, for example, like what the colors could do for my clients that always made me really happy. You know, working with clients like Adobe and Gensler on their their spaces on the Founders Tower, programing each space so people can feel the feelings that that they wanted to feel in those spaces and knowing we were hitting those targets. 00:14:58:14 - 00:15:31:03 Speaker 2 So people wanted to be in those spaces. I think somebody had a great quote that that, you know, work should be, a magnet, not a mandate. Right? We want people to be drawn to these things, not have to be like, well, you have to be there. But I think one of the deeper experiences I had was that when I realized that color was having such a great effect for my clients, but I, I realized when I was driving around one day that there were these places I considered visual deserts. 00:15:31:05 - 00:15:34:17 Speaker 2 Once I saw those, I could not unsee those things. 00:15:34:19 - 00:15:41:21 Speaker 1 Especially in California. I mean, yeah, because it's all very bright, you know. What do you call it? Greige or like taupe or greige. 00:15:41:23 - 00:16:11:03 Speaker 2 And and I just thought, oh my gosh, you know, I really think that there's a place that color has for people who, who don't get that. Yeah. And so as you know, I founded Project Color Core. And for me, this became a way of me really, truly understanding how to keep this connection is and of color and emotion and what it can do. 00:16:11:05 - 00:16:38:09 Speaker 2 So when I talk about belonging, you know, I literally have kids saying this, this space now makes me feel like I belong here, or I see myself in there, or when I'm talking to them about what they want to see. And a group of seniors say they feel nostalgic and I'm like, how are you nostalgic at 18 years old? 00:16:38:09 - 00:17:02:19 Speaker 2 I mean, what is what am I supposed to feel? You know? And then I say, you know, what does that mean? And they say, I want to see the colors from all the countries that we came from, because none of us were born here. and then we use those colors and they feel this sense of being seen and feeling heard and belonging and joyful. 00:17:03:00 - 00:17:29:23 Speaker 2 And the quotes that we get from ten year olds, quotes like, you know, this makes me want to be a better person. Yeah. I mean, this is these are unsolicited things. And so these are the things that I realize how powerful this is. And and it also goes back to neuro esthetics of enriched environments, where Marianne Diamond did all this research at UC Berkeley and realized that enriched environments. 00:17:29:23 - 00:17:51:12 Speaker 2 And I think color plays a significant role in these enriched environments. It changes the neuroplasticity of our brain. This is something that truly happens. Yeah. So it's not like I'm going out when we're fundraising and saying this is a nice to have. These are our must haves because we see what's happening in the school. 00:17:51:14 - 00:18:17:04 Speaker 1 I wonder why I want to talk. I want to backtrack for a second because our listeners and viewers may not know, but Laura started in 2011 what she mentioned, Project Color Corps, which is, a certified nonprofit, and it focuses on transforming environments through what I think you call optical optimism, which is pretty amazing, using color to bring, as you just said, this sense of joy and belonging to places where often kids are learning. 00:18:17:04 - 00:18:45:20 Speaker 1 So schools and libraries and community centers and communities are gathering and families are coming together, but often in neighborhoods that are otherwise very underserved, as you said, visual deserts. So I know, we actually came to a tour, back in June of 2025. at Hoover Elementary in Oakland, California. And I think what really struck me, and I think it's one of, you know, 27 projects or so that you guys have now executed around the country. 00:18:45:24 - 00:19:17:20 Speaker 1 But what really struck me was how out like the houses around the play yard, which was a big I mean, three huge blocks of space, I mean, very large had started actually upgrading their own homes and colors to reflect back what the school had done. Yeah, and the upgrades that were there. And I think that project put you in touch with the famous NBA star Steph Curry and his wife, who are now partners with you in a whole bunch of different endeavors. 00:19:17:22 - 00:19:24:01 Speaker 1 Can you talk about the work a little bit? Because I know it's like probably the piece that's closest to your heart. 00:19:24:03 - 00:19:53:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, it it's yeah, it's really emotional for me because I think of us as this giant mirror that reflects people's beauty, that what we want them to see is themselves. How beautiful, how powerful they are. And I feel really privileged to work with the kids in the community because they have these brilliant ideas. Our process is like a four point process. 00:19:53:02 - 00:20:12:09 Speaker 2 So we start with surveys and we ask them how they want to feel in their spaces, what colors they love, that the most beautiful quotes, like pink has this loss feeling. It's wide and it's beautiful. They've been poets at like eight years old, nine years old, and then they tell us how they want to feel. And then there's word clouds. 00:20:12:09 - 00:20:42:12 Speaker 2 We're always looking for the words that really kind of distinguish their community from others. all, all people in all environments want to feel happy and excited, but we're looking for the other words like we want to feel sparkly, like one school said sparkly like we never heard that word before. Or nostalgic, right? Or beloved. We just did the YWCA and, they wanted to feel beloved. 00:20:42:12 - 00:21:03:16 Speaker 2 And we just did a school at Oakland Unity, and they wanted to feel like they were an oasis. So, I mean, these are the words that we come back to them. We create, we work with amazing designers that come forward and many times volunteer for their work and their design and their skill. And we take all of these colors. 00:21:03:16 - 00:21:14:15 Speaker 2 We listen to them, we give them two palettes. They create the designs. The kids vote on the one that they love the most. Then they come out and they paint with us and execute. 00:21:14:18 - 00:21:19:10 Speaker 1 And we're talking about murals and walls inside outside. All of it. 00:21:19:12 - 00:21:52:05 Speaker 2 You saw at Hoover the entire school. The entire school was painted because what happened we have this very lucky thing was that Oakland Unified said to Hoover Elementary, you're up for painting this year. And the principal said, we do not want beige. We want you to talk to Project Color Corps and have them pick the colors. And we were able to actually work with them and pick colors that worked with all of the murals that we did, and you saw how much it transformed the whole neighborhood. 00:21:52:05 - 00:22:08:23 Speaker 2 And that school is now and then it's just a beacon in the neighborhood. They have, their enrollment has increased. parents want their kids to go to that school, and the kids are so happy, you know, but it comes from that. 00:22:09:00 - 00:22:13:04 Speaker 1 That's so this seems like such a simple, simple thing. 00:22:13:06 - 00:22:27:17 Speaker 2 This is why I'm always thinking, can we just build this into policy? Like, could we we could change the world if we could just go back. And if we learn from certain things, why aren't we building this into policy, you know? 00:22:27:19 - 00:22:47:24 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, let's just talk about some of that because, I mean, in terms of color, because I think when most of like our listeners or viewers who either are in the design world might have more nuance, but who certainly aren't in the design world, when we think about color, it often it comes out as boldness. So it's either like black and white, right? 00:22:47:24 - 00:22:57:14 Speaker 1 Or it's like bright colors or primary colors or rainbow of colors, you know, or else it's really boring. It's just like taupe and greige right. 00:22:57:14 - 00:23:03:19 Speaker 2 It's safe. It's it's overly safe to the point where it's benign. 00:23:03:21 - 00:23:22:15 Speaker 1 Right? Where we're seeing that a lot these days. And it's like whitewashing. I don't know this. Like, you know, the Home Alone movie house like got redone and it's just boring white palette like, what is the value of bold color. And is bold always better or not necessarily? 00:23:22:17 - 00:23:42:20 Speaker 2 I wouldn't use the word bold, Lisa, because when I think of bold colors, I think of things that are shouting. I don't think we always need that. And this is where the emotional part of color comes into play. I think that there are times when you could be bold by using a combination of a deep and a soft color. 00:23:42:22 - 00:24:06:03 Speaker 2 You could be bold by painting an entire space, something that's barely there. But you know it's not white. I think it's really more how people are going to use that space and how you can be of service to them. And this is what I love about color the most. It wants to be of service, right? That's the best part about it. 00:24:06:03 - 00:24:17:03 Speaker 2 And it can really change the way you feel immediately. I mean, and it's the least expensive thing you could do. A bucket of paint is not that expensive. 00:24:17:03 - 00:24:24:19 Speaker 1 Always. I mean, especially when you have like when you're younger and you have rental apartments and you're like, I just put through a splash of color, you know? 00:24:24:21 - 00:24:25:11 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:24:25:11 - 00:24:29:05 Speaker 1 I mean, and it's personal then too, as you said, it's emotions. 00:24:29:07 - 00:24:52:18 Speaker 2 It's you see, you see a part of yourself where you see something that is answering a call that you had a need that you had. And in that way, I think it's the most brilliant thing color could do is make you feel seen and heard. Yeah. And it's why we're here. Yeah. Right. Ultimately. 00:24:52:20 - 00:25:02:04 Speaker 1 So why is it that, like, when we think about, like, the future, like, futuristic landscapes are either like grayscale? I feel like or like neon. 00:25:02:06 - 00:25:02:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:25:02:22 - 00:25:05:08 Speaker 1 What why why do we why? 00:25:05:10 - 00:25:47:21 Speaker 2 I think when we think futuristic we relinquish the idea of the future as being something technological and void of human touch. I would argue it's the opposite. It's what we need the most. And in the time of fast everything, slow became a movement. Technology being pervasive. I mean, I think of the movie “Her”. Yeah. And the way actually they show that it actually that it was plausible that a man could fall in love with his, with a machine or an operating system. 00:25:47:21 - 00:26:11:14 Speaker 2 Right. He could fall in love with that was by using these comforting colors. Yeah. Right. Where, like, I was thinking of the other day about “Severance”, and it was void of. Because that's what they do. They they they cut you off from every emotion. So this dystopian environment, color couldn't play a role because you were already cut off from everything that you were feeling. 00:26:11:16 - 00:26:40:18 Speaker 1 Wow. Cool. It's really fascinating. we're going to come to that version of white that I was alluding to early on, which is Pantone, the the International Design Institute Focus on Color named its color of 2026 a white. That's called Cloud Dancer, which I love the name, and it's actually looks like a very pretty white, but it, of course sparked enormous controversy. 00:26:40:20 - 00:27:04:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, I know you hate talking about trends. Yeah, I know that's not your approach to color. But in light of the international brouhaha that the Institute has kind of brought upon itself, what do you make of it? And are there are there trends that are kind of growing in importance and the color world right now? 00:27:04:21 - 00:27:11:17 Speaker 2 I mean, I think I think what I feel is that. 00:27:11:19 - 00:27:45:20 Speaker 2 I think that this notion that one color can be of service to all is a very difficult one. I think that. I think that color and marketing might serve a place, and I don't like commenting on that because it isn't what I do. I think it's the humanism of it. And when you think about the humanity of it, I don't know that it can be connected to something that is more of a marketing campaign. 00:27:45:22 - 00:28:18:01 Speaker 2 I'm super respectful that that's their thing and that's what they want to do. I feel that one of the things that's most hopeful to me is people are understanding how powerful color is and how much they need color. and I believe that actually we will be seeing more color in the future because we want to connect more with each other or we need to anyways. 00:28:18:03 - 00:28:29:11 Speaker 2 And when you think about. When you think about the words that people say in their everyday life, they want to belong. 00:28:30:08 - 00:28:59:04 Speaker 2 And belonging is one of the most critical things that we need to feel alive. And so my feeling is, is that color will play a role in that. And I see it in these schools and in these community centers. I see that it's reflecting the sense of belonging because it isn't a mono singular thing. It's it's a it's all of us participating and saying, this is who we are. 00:28:59:10 - 00:29:06:21 Speaker 2 This is our community, this is our ownership. And it would be very hard for one color to ever do that. 00:29:06:23 - 00:29:19:00 Speaker 1 It's fascinating. Okay. as we wrap, start wrapping up, I have to ask you. Yeah. What's your favorite color? 00:29:19:02 - 00:29:50:21 Speaker 2 you know, Lisa, I feel that I love greens a lot, as you can see. But I have to say, as soon as I started the nonprofit, shades of Red became really important to me because I believe that people have been so generous in the human heart like it's it's moved me every day. I'm just amazed at how good intrinsically people are and how generous they are. 00:29:50:21 - 00:29:53:23 Speaker 2 And so I would say shades of red. 00:29:54:00 - 00:30:01:22 Speaker 1 I love that it's because the shades of green is the natural world, and the shades of red seems to speak to the humanity, so I like that very much. 00:30:01:24 - 00:30:03:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:30:03:09 - 00:30:17:18 Speaker 1 last question then, as as with all guests, Laura. we're going to project out 25 ish years in the future, so let's call it 2050. What's your greatest hope for the future of color? 00:30:17:20 - 00:30:34:19 Speaker 2 What I hope is that, people will feel the freedom to express themselves with color and to communicate with color, and that the world will become a more vibrant, joyful place. 00:30:34:21 - 00:30:46:12 Speaker 1 It's a beautiful, beautiful vision, and you're certainly helping contribute to that. Laura Guido-Clark, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Future of XYZ. 00:30:46:14 - 00:30:52:04 Speaker 2 thank you, Lisa, for having me. I'm a fan of yours, and I'm so happy that we're connected. 00:30:52:06 - 00:31:11:04 Speaker 1 Thank you. It's it's mutual for everyone watching and listening. if you didn't already know, we're going to have someone at the door. If you didn't already know, you can watch on YouTube. You can listen anywhere. You get your favorite podcasts. be sure to leave us a five star review. And, we will see you again in two weeks. 00:31:11:07 - 00:31:13:07 Speaker 1 Thanks again. 00:31:13:09 - 00:31:14:23 Speaker 2 Bye, everyone.