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Transnational Crime With Nur Sharif | The Christian Reeve Podcast #333 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:00
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reeve
0:04
Podcast. But it's not just any episode.
0:07
Today, for the first time in five years of doing this
0:12
podcast, I'm using Riverside FM to record my show.
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This isn't a paid spot or anything.
0:21
I wish it was. I need the money I I got just a
0:27
side note before I introduced today's guest and get on the
0:30
things. So I've been trying to improve
0:32
the podcast in every way possible.
0:35
I recently returned to doing clips, but as you may recall,
0:40
over the years, I've kind of said how laborious it can be,
0:43
how much time it takes. And I've been doing it for like
0:47
4 years and I stopped and just kind of really felt like a step
0:52
in the wrong direction and I felt bad about it, but I was
0:56
like, what can I do? I, I just don't have the time to
0:58
do it, you know? And I, it's always a shitty
1:00
excuse when you're like, I don't have the time, I don't have the
1:03
time. But genuinely, if you've ever
1:05
done a podcast or if you've never done one, it takes a lot
1:08
of time to do the show, to do the research and then of course
1:12
do the clips and then release it and promote it and everything,
1:16
right? I don't earn any money from
1:18
this. I don't know if I've ever
1:21
stressed this before, but I've been paying out of pocket since
1:24
I began the show. I pay for things like Zoom to
1:30
record the show. I pay for audio editing
1:34
software. I think it, I think it takes me
1:36
up to about like £4050 a month for something crazy like that.
1:39
So all this time I've been doing the show, haven't earned a
1:42
penny. And not everything's about the
1:44
money, but when you're you, you know, doing a show and producing
1:47
a show and trying to make it good and you're just a regular
1:51
guy trying to earn a living, you know, I'm, I'm, it's not, I'm
1:54
not rich. It comes out of pocket.
1:57
I'm, I'm minimum wage. You know, you do what you can,
2:02
right? And I thought it was a sensible
2:04
time five years in to sort of start reviewing options.
2:07
I've kind of, I'm denied about Riverside.
2:10
I've had guests on the show who've used it.
2:12
I've been on other people's shows and I've seen issues, but
2:17
you know, that was few years ago.
2:19
Things change. Point is, I started producing
2:22
clips with Riverside and it seemed to be going well.
2:27
I saw that there was an option to record.
2:29
I'd kind of forgotten that I could do that and also that
2:32
because now I'm paying for the service, it's like we can go
2:35
somewhere with it. So to get to the point, this is
2:39
the first show with Riverside. If it goes well, then I'll keep
2:44
using it. If it doesn't go well, then I
2:47
won't keep using it. So yeah, there we go.
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Now, let's get to our main event.
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Let's actually get to the point of this show.
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Today's guest, returning guest, Nurse Sharif.
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Now, for those who might not be familiar with him, he's a
3:02
criminologist. He's been studying this for many
3:05
years. And this is a topic that.
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Well, first of all, welcome to the show.
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Now how are you doing? Yeah.
3:12
Thank you very much. Glad to be here.
3:14
Yeah, it's a pleasure. Oh, it's always a pleasure to
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have you back, man. This is something that you
3:18
floated a while ago to me. This particular topic we're
3:22
going to talk about today. And because it was a big one, I
3:27
was not immediately like, yeah, just come on.
3:29
I'm like, no, no, no. It's going to take me some time
3:32
and and it's one of those what I'm not even sure if I know what
3:37
I'm going to be asking, to be honest.
3:38
I'm going to kind of just ride the journey with with the
3:41
viewers on this one. But I do have questions.
3:43
I do have questions sent in by the lovely listeners of the
3:46
show. So thank you so much for sending
3:47
those in. Today's episode is all about
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transnational crime. Now my first question to you,
3:58
other than obviously you being in, you know, invested in crime
4:01
and criminology and everything is where does your interest of
4:06
transnational crime actually stem from?
4:08
Where does it begin? So basically when I did my
4:11
degree in chronology at the university from undergraduate, I
4:15
said one of the modules was transnational crime.
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I said and surprisingly that was 1 module.
4:20
I thought, OK, this is not my module because there's politics
4:23
that new to me and stuff. And I thought it could be one of
4:26
my, you know, worst modules that, you know, I wasn't going
4:28
to have any interest. But when I gave it a chance, it
4:31
actually turned out to be one of the most interesting things I've
4:33
actually studied. And So what I did was since then
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I've got, I've got all the books of transnational crime, studied
4:39
the different types of it and it's, you know, and from there
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it actually inspired me to actually write the stories as
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well. What made it interesting?
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I think it's like, I think what made it interesting was rather
4:50
than just looking at one form of crime and one country and stuff
4:53
is looking at international crimes, like different types of
4:56
crimes that happen around the world.
4:57
So for example, like drug trafficking, there's your
4:59
terrorism obviously. And you know, and how this and
5:02
not not just the witness point of view, but how it's more about
5:05
how these organized criminals operate and who actually is
5:08
behind pulling the strings. And that's what makes it
5:10
interesting because you don't really see more about their
5:13
perspective. You obviously in the news, you
5:15
see the victims perspective. I think this is one more on
5:18
topic where you see the criminals perspective of why or
5:21
what's going on the back right and what's actually causing
5:24
these crimes to happen, why they're going on, you know, why
5:26
they're still going. Yeah, I think the thing that
5:30
interests me the most about it is, I suppose the the, the leap
5:35
from national to transnational crime, because obviously for
5:39
those who don't know what it means, pretty straightforward.
5:42
It's when you have crimes which kind of reach an international
5:47
scale, so it will have multiple countries involved, multiple
5:51
crime networks, potentially, you know, agencies, companies, maybe
5:56
even governments involved. So it's kind of like a multi
6:00
faceted thing. And I think I think that's kind
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of like my main area of interest as maybe as a starting point
6:07
here is, is like what takes a crime from national to
6:12
international? What, what would you say like
6:13
the steps that kind of it's just to that point where it starts
6:17
becoming transnational crime? I think the steps will be so for
6:22
example, because the difference between transnational obviously
6:25
domestic crimes, it's not because domestic crimes are more
6:27
like Home group, but transnational.
6:29
I think it's when you have multiple groups and
6:32
organizations helping each other.
6:34
So for example, as you mentioned, like AP, you know,
6:36
the government will be involved in this crop, you know,
6:39
politicians will be helping to fund this.
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And you know, rather than just one person being, you know,
6:44
behind, behind this. So it's like a more of like a,
6:47
you know, wide world, you know what's called because you got
6:50
like other countries are also supporting, you know, what's
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called this crime. So like that, for example, drug
6:54
trafficking, you smoke there, smoke the drugs into other
6:57
countries to get, you know, to the other side where the
7:00
organised criminals are there and their side of the corruption
7:02
is there as well. Yeah.
7:05
And it's, it's interesting because there's a lot of
7:07
examples of this where a government is either involved or
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indirectly involved. Like I'll give you a really good
7:13
starting example that I heard. There's an amazing little mini
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documentary on YouTube. I highly recommend everyone go
7:21
out of your way to check it out. And it's basically something to
7:26
the effect of how does North Korea work?
7:30
Like how does it survive? And, and it's kind of a really
7:33
good question because for everyone that's ever like looked
7:37
at North Korea as a country, obviously we always hear about
7:40
like the, the, you know, the, the, the militant kind of
7:44
dictatorship they've got going on there.
7:46
And I think it's a type of communism.
7:48
I might be wrong on that. But basically, it's an isolated
7:53
country, and they do allow foreigners to come over, but
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it's heavily restricted. And there's obviously all
7:59
propaganda and all that, but there's always that big question
8:02
of but how is the country still going?
8:05
Like what? Because, you know, they don't
8:09
have a lot of money, to the best of my knowledge.
8:12
They do some level of business with China, but it's kind of
8:17
sketchy at best. So where does that leave them?
8:20
And apparently, according to this video, and again, I'll try
8:23
and Cliff notes it because the video will explain it far better
8:27
than I can. Essentially what the guy in the
8:29
video says is that every sort of three to five years, you know,
8:33
they inevitably will pop up and start having a go at the UN and
8:37
being like, give us money or we're going to bomb you.
8:42
Really serious. And it kind of comes across as a
8:45
bit of an empty threat, but it works.
8:47
They, you know, they get a bit, you know, fidgety.
8:50
They do actually start testing missiles and then they get given
8:54
money. And then they go quiet for a
8:56
number of years. And all you hear are just random
9:00
news stories about like, apparently Kim Jong Un has like
9:03
banned the use of hamburgers, cheeseburgers as a form.
9:07
You know, you have to call it something else now, just
9:09
something crazy like that or like there's a state officiated
9:12
haircuts that you're allowed to have and just, you know,
9:15
whatever. But the point remains that, you
9:18
know, they they only get given like maybe a couple of 100
9:21
million, which for a country, yeah, obviously for us, that's
9:24
like, you know, lifetime's worth of money.
9:26
But for a country, it's not really that much since like, how
9:28
can you keep going on that? And supposedly, and this is I
9:32
guess where the transnational crime element comes into play is
9:36
that officially the company, company, the country's rules are
9:41
that, you know, obviously any kind of trade is at least with
9:46
foreign countries is illegal. Like, you know, you if there is
9:50
any kind of trade within the country, I mean, I can't speak
9:53
to that like how it works there, but it, it obviously would be
9:56
self-contained. But apparently in the capital,
9:59
which is Pyongyang, I believe they have foreigners there
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trading, maybe some from China, maybe some from other
10:09
surrounding countries. But there are people trading and
10:12
supposedly the government is aware of this and allows it on
10:18
some scale and they monitor it because they know that
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apparently without it, they can't survive.
10:26
They actually need the trade that's brought in from what is a
10:31
crime. You know, it's it's, it's and
10:33
it's happening on homegrown soil.
10:35
But it's like from other countries you speak to that.
10:38
Do you know much about the North Korean situation or as far as it
10:41
pertains to to transnational crime?
10:45
Yeah, I think it's quite interesting because you know,
10:46
that you mentioned North Korea because I know that's a, you
10:49
know, big country. And in terms of the corruption
10:52
and stuff, it's interesting how, you know, America is quite close
10:54
to North Korea as well, especially with the recent, you
10:57
know, President Donald Trump and stuff.
11:00
And also you put, and obviously you're probably thinking, oh,
11:02
you know, is it odd? It could be a piece or not, but
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I think it's a, you know, because I know America always
11:07
had a, you know, issue against, I believe it was China.
11:11
It's not. So obviously with the corruption
11:12
stuff, obviously they know, Oh, if they can speak to North
11:15
Korea, talk to them, give them what they what they want,
11:18
whether that's, you know, weapons or anything or money
11:20
even, and it can help them, you know, you know, build that.
11:23
It was a connection, that communication then to give them
11:26
what they want to return like a favour.
11:28
It's interesting because it's like you have a lot of countries
11:31
that you know, that do that, that, you know, for example,
11:33
Israel's another one that's, you know, I'm presuming that helps,
11:37
you know, America, even North Korea.
11:40
This is the interesting one, like obviously.
11:43
So for those who don't know, right off the bat, you know, ask
11:46
me like, hey, can we talk politics in this?
11:49
Because it's a touchy subject and it's like you have to talk
11:51
politics in this. And it's, I like, look, we're
11:54
not going to be sitting here debating left or right or
11:56
anything like that. I, I, to be honest, I couldn't
11:59
care less. I'm in the middle.
12:00
I will always be in the middle. It is what it is.
12:04
But as it pertains to what we're talking about today, government
12:07
involvement in transnational crime is an interesting thing
12:10
because there's no way that governments are not aware of the
12:16
scale of crime on a transnational level that's going
12:19
on, on, you know, within their country.
12:22
However, sometimes they don't. Sometimes it can be down to like
12:26
incompetence, stuff like that. But I think in, in maybe in
12:29
America, a country like that, you've got, obviously you've got
12:31
the FBI and you've got the CIA. So you've got 2 agencies who are
12:37
responsible for, you know, investigating this sort of crime
12:42
and getting to the bottom of it. And typically, I believe the FBI
12:45
is involved in the more international level stuff
12:49
because they have to kind of liaise with other countries to
12:52
put together, you know, stings operations or whatever to, to
12:57
catch criminals in these. And from what I understand, you
13:02
know, if you've ever seen like a crime drama or whatever, when
13:04
they're like, let's say they're trying to catch like a drug Lord
13:07
or something, like it's never like, oh, you can just catch
13:09
them straight away. Like you, you've got to kind of
13:11
build your evidence over time. You know, maybe you've got
13:13
people undercover, whatever. And you've got to kind of
13:16
measure the scale of it. So, you know, like you don't
13:18
capture the wrong people. Or if you are capturing certain
13:21
people, maybe at the lower end, how much information can we get
13:25
from them? How far can we take this?
13:27
How many people can we take in and ultimately can we destroy
13:32
the, the empire? And obviously sounds like Star
13:34
Wars the empire. No, because obviously it's
13:37
typically it's going to be like involved with things like drugs,
13:40
but then it's also things like human trafficking.
13:43
And you know, I mean, there's, there's so many types of, of
13:47
transnational crime. Do you one of the questions
13:49
actually, we have from one of our listeners, shout out to
13:52
Kerry. I think she asked this question.
13:55
How many different types of transnational crime are there?
13:58
What are the categories? I think yeah, there's so many,
14:01
but I can maybe a few of them. So there's obviously drug
14:03
trafficking, money laundering, human trafficking, terrorism, I
14:08
think, yeah, so the. Oh, and also wildlife
14:10
trafficking as well. Wildlife, environmental crimes.
14:13
It's a big, as I know it's a big issue as well.
14:16
And also, you know, smuggling and I think you know, of all
14:19
those, obviously, you know, terrorism is a big one, but I
14:21
know your drug trafficking is a, you know, very, a very big
14:25
common, common topic as well. It's actually interesting
14:28
because you know, with drug trafficking and stuff like a way
14:31
we're touching what I think what's fascinating about that
14:34
topic is that they always, you know, with that, they always
14:37
have what's called someone to take the fall for that crime.
14:39
So like a mule, it's called stuff.
14:42
I know me, that person will be the most vulnerable, you know,
14:44
person because for example, with life example, they may need the
14:48
money to do the stuff to support the family.
14:50
And that can make it tricky, tricky situation of you know
14:53
who's actually reading the right or the wrong, but it was the
14:56
organized criminals. But it's always or the mule that
14:58
that decided to take part in it when they had no choice.
15:01
That's. A tough part, isn't it?
15:04
Because like, not everyone is going to be some a lot of people
15:08
are coerced or threatened or or whatever.
15:10
Yeah, you think about situations like human trafficking.
15:14
I imagine there's a lot of situations of like stocks to
15:17
home syndrome where they are trying to save people, but then
15:20
they are then protecting their captors, maybe out of fear,
15:23
maybe out of, you know, like just manipulation, whatever the
15:27
case may be. So it's it's never going to be
15:29
that black and white. I do also have listed here
15:33
illicit trading of firearms, smuggling of migrants and
15:38
cybercrime. That's an interesting one.
15:43
How many cases have you come across of transnational crime in
15:47
the sphere of cybercrime to date?
15:49
Yeah. Yeah, I think cybercrime is
15:51
actually very, yeah, it's a very interesting topic and a very,
15:54
you know, you know, heavy one as well.
15:56
Because you know, cybercrime is one of those topics where
15:58
there's different shrines of it because you got obviously, you
16:01
know, cyber bullying hacking, you know, there's obviously with
16:04
hacking stuff, there's obviously groups like, you know, Anonymous
16:07
and stuff. And with that, that's where
16:09
obviously people say, you know, are divided, say, oh, well, it's
16:12
called ethical hacking. And so which is oh, because
16:14
they're what they're doing, the reason they call it ethical
16:16
hacking is supposed to, you know, like a proper, you know,
16:19
criminal hacking is because they're doing it to expose the
16:21
government, expose, you know, the corrupt people.
16:24
And obviously the public are in favour of that.
16:26
But the people on the other side, the police and the
16:28
government don't like people taking the law to the on hands,
16:31
actually classes people as vigilantes and stuff as well,
16:35
like cyber vigilantes. And there's a word actually
16:37
called hacktivist which comes under that, which means that the
16:40
reason they call it Hackfish, it's a hacker, but they're doing
16:43
a more like a vigilante perspective.
16:45
So like Anonymous will be a perfect example.
16:47
WikiLeaks and I guess Edward Snowden is another example of
16:51
who it depends on which perspective you actually look at
16:53
it. This is the interesting thing as
16:55
well, isn't it? I mean, we've seen vigilantes
16:58
painted in in various forms of media over the years.
17:03
My first introduction to that term, I think, was either in a
17:07
video game or The Simpsons of all places.
17:10
There was an episode where Homer becomes a vigilante because
17:13
they're annoyed at like the police and like a lot of people
17:16
from the town get on board with him.
17:17
And they start kind of going out And they, you know, they at
17:21
first they're kind of solving crimes and sorting things out.
17:24
And eventually it goes too far and they get in trouble.
17:27
And then it kind of unveils and I suppose the moral from that
17:31
episode is like, you know, you can't just take the law into
17:33
your own hands. But then it does beg a lot of
17:35
questions, doesn't it, If you have a police state that is
17:40
letting you down, where people aren't trained properly, like
17:44
it's problematic. I've seen a couple of clips
17:46
lately in the UK, Manchester, even where where I live, where
17:53
there is unfortunately, I'd say incompetent policing.
17:57
They have people within their ranks.
18:00
And again, I'm not generalizing, but you know, when you've got
18:03
people in your ranks that like can't boast, bust open a door
18:07
and there's like four or five of you and it's, you know, a drug
18:11
bust or something. I mean, that's pretty standard
18:14
stuff. And like, don't get me wrong, I
18:15
know busting the door isn't easy, but like when you've got
18:19
like the tools for it and no one knows what to do and it's like
18:21
watching a sketch from the Three Stooges.
18:23
It's, it's a bit concerning, you know.
18:26
And then there's like other situations, like I saw
18:28
something, I don't know where in the UK it was, but it was like a
18:31
High Street somewhere. And there's like at least 4
18:36
police officers trying to capture this guy who's walking
18:39
around with a spade in his hand. She plays a weird placement.
18:43
And they just, they wouldn't go near him.
18:45
They couldn't do anything. Eventually it took some random
18:48
guy jump who just jumped him out of nowhere and grabbed the
18:51
shovel off him. And then the police swoop in and
18:54
do something. And it's like, what's the
18:56
problem man? Just get in there like your job
18:59
is. And like, I'm not saying it's an
19:01
easy job by any means, but like, this is the job you've picked.
19:05
Like it'd be like me with customer service being like, oh,
19:08
I can't talk to customers. And it's like, that's literally
19:10
the job. You have to do it go over
19:12
yourself with policing. Yeah, you're putting your heart
19:15
yourself in harm's way that that comes with the territory.
19:19
I understand it can get real tricky as far as like what your
19:24
rights are and stuff like that. But if it comes down to like
19:27
protecting people, I think that you could probably waive some of
19:30
those rights and be like, I need, we need to kind of contain
19:34
this as soon as possible. But you know, I mean, it's, it
19:40
speaks to, I suppose, a wider problem with policing.
19:43
I, I know, for example, on the other side, we, we've have, we
19:46
have a lot of cut funding here in the UK, which boggles the
19:50
mind Of all things you could cut, why would you cut security
19:54
for a country? I don't know about yourself, but
19:58
I've never felt more unsafe in the UK than I do right now.
20:03
And I know that might sound like an old man thing to say like oh,
20:05
I'm so scared. But you know, I grew up in
20:08
London with when knife crime was like rife and people would like
20:12
constantly try and mug me and put me at knife point and stuff.
20:16
And weirdly, back then I felt more safe even though there was
20:24
not a massively bigger police presence then.
20:27
But I don't know, there just seems to be more incidents now.
20:30
And it just seems like it's a bit of a free for all a lot of
20:33
the time. And often these days, the only
20:37
time I see the police is, is when they want to break up a
20:41
protest of like, peaceful people just walking down the street.
20:45
They just, you know, apparently that's the time to get involved.
20:47
But I don't know now it's getting a bit political.
20:50
So I'm going to move it swiftly on.
20:55
But what? Yeah, in in that question, I
20:57
didn't get quite good answer for me.
20:59
Have you heard any major cybercrime cases that come to
21:04
mind? Anything that stands out in
21:06
particular? I can say I can use obviously
21:08
this experience as stuff as a form of because I would say it
21:11
classes as a form of cybercrime and stuff.
21:15
Which experience? Also, so basically so last year
21:19
stuff, so another form of cybercrime I would say was a
21:21
form of stalking. Stalking.
21:26
Yeah, stalking. Oh, did were you stalked?
21:29
Yeah, became it was. Yeah, It's like a phone book
21:32
online, Online stalking stuff. And do you mind talking about
21:38
that? Are you comfortable talking
21:39
about that? Yeah, I could.
21:41
Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't mind talking about
21:42
it. Yeah, I could.
21:43
OK, so how this might not sound like a silly question, but just
21:49
kind of like paint a picture, how soon into it did you know
21:53
you were being stalked? Like what was the telltale
21:56
signs? What were the telltale signs?
21:58
I think it was when, for example, after I kept blocking
22:02
this individual stuff, they kept creating multiple accounts and
22:04
you're finding my different social media accounts and it got
22:08
an indication that obviously it's developed to that level of
22:12
stalking. Because it's to be no clear why
22:13
it became, you know, so many questions going through my mind
22:16
and why this is happening, what the reasons or motivations were,
22:19
but behind behind this person doing it and stuff.
22:22
And it put that actually fear inside, you know, inside of me
22:25
and stuff like what happens if they, you know, come, you know,
22:28
even to stop the simple what happens if they, you know,
22:30
strike again at any time and stuff is like they'll be more
22:33
vigilant. Did they threaten you in any
22:35
way? Did they cause any issues in
22:37
your life or was it just surveillance?
22:40
I think it's just more about, from my experience, more about
22:42
surveillance, I said. That's just my experience.
22:46
Did you confront them? I I did, yeah, confront them,
22:49
like asking them through, you know, what the reason was.
22:52
But again, it was a, you know, like it didn't get really a
22:55
response from the person because I avoided them.
22:57
We always avoid that confrontation.
23:00
So how did you handle that situation?
23:04
Did you reach out to, I don't know, who would you go to?
23:12
I suppose because I mean, stalking comes under harassment,
23:16
doesn't it? So if, if you could, I'm not
23:21
saying like you could go to the police or something like that.
23:23
I think it's, it's a bit of a grey area on that one.
23:26
I think if someone's sending you like death threats or something,
23:28
you can prove it, then that surely is harassment.
23:31
But if it's just someone's checking your stuff out, there's
23:36
nothing really you can do, is there?
23:38
I mean, I don't know how did how did you deal with it?
23:43
What was the aftermath? I think it like they eventually
23:46
got tied after it kept her blocking all their accounts that
23:49
they were creating and stuff. And I think eventually they
23:51
kept, you know, they eventually gave up after a while.
23:55
Crazy, man. I'm sorry to hear that you dealt
23:57
with that. It's terrifying stalking.
24:01
It's like what goes through someone's head that they, they
24:05
think that that's normal behaviour.
24:07
But there's a lot of things in society that are not normal
24:10
really, isn't it? I mean, that's a whole podcast
24:13
right there. OK, this will be an interesting
24:17
one. What is the most famous case of
24:20
transnational crime? Oh, that's really, yeah, a very
24:24
interesting question and I think I would.
24:26
So the one case I will actually talk about is actually here is
24:29
there was a Japanese doomsday cult called, I'm not sure if
24:32
you've heard of it, but called the Amsruku and stuff.
24:35
So basically there were terrorist organization in Japan
24:38
and stuff and, and this they did also many attacks but the most I
24:42
think, I guess that you could call it Japan's deadliest attack
24:45
was I believe in 1992 and it was a Tokyo classed as a Tokyo
24:49
Serenite gas attack itself. And the reason what they want to
24:53
do was so basically they obviously targeted Tokyo first.
24:56
So they did went so send about I think 4 attackers on separate
24:59
subway lines except for what they did.
25:02
They wrapped this poison gas, the serenite gas in newspapers
25:05
and they, what they would do was they leave the gas there and
25:07
put, you know, stabbed with them umbrella.
25:09
So what the whole point would be that the Serenite gas was spread
25:13
throughout the whole, that whole subway and stuff.
25:16
And it caused obviously, and it caused obviously, you know, I
25:18
think about, I believe 50 people that 50 people died on each
25:22
subway. And also it also caused diseases
25:25
as well. And the reason why that's class
25:27
is deadly attack. Because what the what the leader
25:29
of the group wanted to do was Saka Usher, who was the leader
25:32
of the group and stuff. He wanted to actually use that
25:35
to spread international threats as well.
25:37
And he actually wanted to start actually World War 3 using this,
25:40
you know, type of, you know, what's called weapon that he
25:42
developed. Then the reason we did was
25:44
before he did the Tokyo siren, I guess he also attacked
25:47
politicians, political, you know, political leaders of, you
25:50
know, of, you know, Japan and stuff to see if the gas would
25:52
work. And once he was successful, he
25:54
decided to go build, you know, each each level up.
25:57
And I actually, I believe and what he wanted to actually do.
26:00
And he said that if he had, you know, what's called seceded
26:03
actually was successful. He actually was planning to, you
26:05
know, attack the World Trade Center with the gas siren, a gas
26:09
attack, but he never actually got to that stage because they
26:12
obviously got discovered before, you know, you know, by the
26:16
intelligence. So obviously the reason that he
26:18
wasn't able to, you know, carry out, for example, that, you
26:21
know, the tackle World Trade Center was because he got, you
26:24
know, caught by the intelligence service of, you know, of Japan,
26:28
who obviously uncovered their group, what the motivation was
26:31
and what what they were doing. So prevented them to build,
26:34
build on that. But they had the potential to
26:36
build, you know, serious, you know, transnational threats.
26:41
Thanks for sharing. OK, this is an interesting one.
26:45
I mean, I feel I know might know the answer, but I don't know
26:48
what does transnational crime look like in 2025?
26:51
Well. That's a very interesting
26:53
question. I'll say transnational 20/20/25
26:56
would look like, so it's like, I know terrorism is, you know, a
26:59
perfect example of this because obviously the terrorism is a big
27:02
is a big subject. And now you've got, you know,
27:04
before you had Al Qaeda, but now you have ISIS now who are
27:08
carrying on just international threats and stuff.
27:10
And it's it's because you know, IN20202025 we had so many
27:14
different, you know, you know, threats happening and stuff.
27:17
And I know even during, since the start of 2020 ourselves was
27:21
a bit, you know, big, you know, what's called what's called a
27:23
big year because we had the I think the London, yeah, the
27:26
London stabbing is happening. I believe London Bridge that was
27:29
Arnold Grande as concert as well and stuff.
27:32
And obviously, you know, those people, you know, even though
27:34
that happened in, you know, the UK, but obviously they must have
27:37
connections with transnational levels of other people, other
27:40
countries and stuff. And I think it is interesting
27:43
because I think a perfect example of, as you mentioned, 25
27:47
would be if you look at the, you know, what's happening, you
27:49
know, with Hamas and Israel and the Palestine conflict, as I get
27:53
it's, it's a difficult subject because obviously you are one
27:57
side, you say, okay, you know, for example, these people
27:59
classic terrorists, which is, you know, you know, with the
28:02
Israel past depends on which perspective look like.
28:05
So if you look at that, you know, example with the Israel
28:08
and the Palestine conflict itself, I know that's a well at
28:12
the moment, that's like a well discussed topic at the moment
28:15
itself, because you've got different sides of it who
28:18
actually, who actually, you know, isn't the wrong right
28:21
itself because you got 1, you know, each side blaming each
28:24
other and stuff. And obviously you know, and
28:26
obviously Israel have have caused you a lot of, you know,
28:29
international threats. Let's move it forward and and
28:35
sort of talk about how transnational crime comes to be.
28:40
So how much capital and resources would you sort of
28:46
require to set up a transnational crime
28:49
organization? Because it's it's a big, large
28:51
scale thing. It's going to take years to kind
28:53
of to build something like that. What are we talking here?
28:58
What are the requirements? What do you need?
29:00
I would say obviously funding is, you know, key, key element
29:04
to it. So also obviously the example of
29:07
transnational crime I've used in this case will be drug
29:09
trafficking that stuff because you've got drug cartels.
29:12
They do organize those organized criminals, that stuff.
29:15
And obviously it's not just them operating it because you know,
29:18
what makes it interesting about that specifically, you know,
29:20
that crime and you know, how they got to that international
29:23
level is because I've, you know, it's also due to corruption as
29:27
well, because you know, they pay people off, you know, bribe
29:30
people with the police force, whether it's the people at the
29:33
airport, when they if they smuggle the drugs that way.
29:35
And also, you know, they and in return what they do, they get
29:38
the resources, whether that's, you know, you know, for example,
29:41
drugs from certain countries that they need to supply it.
29:44
Considering the scale of the operation and the high risk
29:48
involved, why do you think criminals choose to get involved
29:51
in transnational crime? I think the reason, one reason
29:55
that they get involved is obviously, you know, to, for
29:57
example, they, some of these people come from that vulnerable
29:59
backgrounds when they're starting off and stuff.
30:02
So for example, one of the reasons could be they need to
30:03
support their families back home or they need the money, money
30:07
to, you know, support the, you know, the people back home,
30:09
obviously. And they feel they have no other
30:12
choice that they get involved in, for example, crimes like,
30:14
for example, you know, drug trading and stuff, because they
30:16
know that will provide them with a good high income that will
30:19
give them their lifestyle that they need itself.
30:22
And obviously it's called and most of these people, you know,
30:25
who take part or come from a place of desperation, which
30:28
means that, you know, that they need that they know that this
30:31
will give them that sustainable lifestyle.
30:33
But in return they have to get involved in this, you know, type
30:36
of, you know, activity here. There's a lot of risk though.
30:41
I mean, is there really much reward for getting involved in
30:44
something like this? I mean, because if you get
30:46
caught, you're, you're going away probably for life for stuff
30:50
like, you know what I mean? Because there's so many elements
30:52
involved. Like, even if you're involved in
30:54
like a low end of a drug operation, there's so many
30:57
things that are connected with that it might just get pinned on
31:01
you. You know what I mean?
31:02
Like, why? Why get involved?
31:07
Would you get involved? Yeah, I don't know.
31:10
Yeah, it's a very interesting subject as well, because I mean,
31:14
I can actually use like, can I use a case study here?
31:16
Yeah, that's. All right, so basically there's
31:19
a, so there's a documentary series called on, I think it's
31:21
on YouTube, I believe called Locked Up Abroad and nothing
31:24
specifically deals with organized crime.
31:26
Transnational drug trafficking is one of those topics.
31:29
And it was interesting because of one of those cases.
31:31
So there was a guy from he's actually a British guy from the
31:34
UK, but he travelled, I think I believe, you know, he travelled
31:37
to Peru as well. So the reason that he got
31:40
involved in, you know, what's called drug trafficking because
31:42
he had a daughter and a partner at home who he needs support
31:46
herself. And he had A and he had a
31:47
criminal background as well. So he couldn't obviously get it
31:50
was easy for him to get a job where, where he was decided to
31:53
travel to Peru and stuff. And what he did was he agreed to
31:56
smuggle. I think it was, yeah, it was
31:58
cocaine and stuff. So he, if he smuggled cocaine
32:00
from Peru, I think back to the he was trying to do it back to
32:03
the UK. So for the only problem was that
32:05
he didn't know that the those people, the drug cartels and the
32:08
those people, you know, who evolved, they actually were
32:11
setting them up because they yeah, they made it look like
32:14
they paid the airport off. So the they would have searched
32:16
his bags and stuff, but Lil did you know that he but Lil, do you
32:20
know what he did? Was he actually body packed the
32:22
drugs and stuff? So I went to stop him at the
32:26
X-ray. We took him out.
32:27
And then when they found out he was when he went to actually
32:30
prison and pretty didn't have a trial or anything like that,
32:33
they said, Hey, you just could get this prison sentence and
32:36
prove and the most dangerous prison there.
32:38
And when he found out that he was set up by this drug cartels,
32:40
he didn't understand because he he thought that he said to that,
32:43
you know, he stalked himself that these people, you know,
32:45
treat him like family. I like, I like a brotherhood to
32:48
him. To speak to what you were
32:49
talking about with regards to let's say UK nationals getting
32:56
imprisoned in countries like Peru or I think Thailand,
33:01
happens in quite often. Often in those instances you
33:06
hear that they remain in those prisons and there's no attempt
33:10
made to get them back to the UK or they say that they can't
33:13
happen. Surely that's that can't be
33:15
true. Surely it's like the
33:17
government's not willing to take the chance for whatever reason.
33:19
But why is that? Yeah, I think the one reason
33:23
could be is could be due to corruption as well, because
33:25
obviously, you know, it's a it's an inter subject because you
33:29
know, just like the case study of, you know, the guy got who
33:32
was sentenced to Peru and stuff. Like when you got sent to say he
33:35
was like he said he didn't get a trial to, you know, in the
33:37
justice system saying, oh, this is how long you could be
33:40
serving, you know, your time for.
33:42
And you know, this is when you know once the time he could be
33:45
go back to the UK, but they just said, Oh no, you could go to,
33:48
you know, the most deadliest prison and prove stuff for all
33:51
these crap with us. But you more drug dealers inside
33:53
as well. But surely that's just, that's
33:58
just not on. How can we allow UK national to
34:02
be, you know, loaded into prison in another country?
34:07
And I don't get me wrong, I understand if you commit a crime
34:10
in another country, you should experience some repercussions
34:16
because, you know, you can't just walk around breaking the
34:18
law however you feel like. It'd be like, oh, I'm going home
34:21
now. Like, I get it.
34:22
But at the same time, like, it kind of feels like we're
34:25
abandoning and abandoning, abandoning our people somewhat.
34:31
I just, I don't know, something about that just doesn't feel
34:33
right to me. I mean, do you not owe something
34:36
to your citizens? Can you really say that they're
34:38
your citizens? I mean, do you know what I mean?
34:40
Like a passport should mean something like, or at least a
34:44
citizenship. Should you know now if you were
34:47
no longer a citizen of said country, I can understand that.
34:51
But do you know what I mean? Like it's, it's like surely
34:55
there should be an attempt made to, I don't know, like bring
35:01
someone back and maybe transfer them to one of our prisons or
35:04
something like that. I mean, is that even possible?
35:09
Yeah, I think it's quite interesting something I think,
35:11
you know, it's all due to I get, you know, the government or what
35:15
the reasons are why they don't want to, you know, bring these,
35:17
you know, their own citizens back and stuff.
35:20
And I think that's where corruption plays a big role is
35:22
because you got different people paid off who are who are, you
35:25
know, part of the what's called is part of this, you know,
35:27
transnational form of crime. All right, let's talk about it
35:31
then. Who?
35:33
Which agencies? Which governments or who?
35:36
Who are The Who are the most highly suspected of being
35:39
massively corrupt? I would say so obviously,
35:43
obviously, you know, Israel probably would go Canada is
35:46
really the government Israel stuff and obviously as well as,
35:49
you know, the people that helping Donald Trump as well.
35:53
And some will be responsible the corruptions.
35:55
But enough. The reason I mentioned in
35:57
America and now we use actually, you know, again, you know,
35:59
recent events, because you know, the there was a whole issue
36:01
about the the freedom of speech being taken away and stuff.
36:05
I don't think you know it like there was I know there was a
36:08
committee, there's a comedian called Jimmy Kimball that
36:10
literally took him off the off the air for I think it was for
36:13
for a week or so because of they didn't like the way the way he
36:15
spoke against, you know, you know, what's called America.
36:18
What do you think about the politicians?
36:21
The international police departments work together to
36:24
tackle transnational crime. Yeah.
36:27
I think it's a very, you know, instinct.
36:29
So I think in terms of the way that they could, you know, work
36:32
together is like with more through intelligence stuff like
36:36
operating these different groups of stuff who's evolved and
36:38
obviously, you know, and then try to expose the the corruption
36:42
is there. And I think, you know, that's by
36:43
working, you know, with other other countries, you know, who
36:47
evolved and those, you know, with those illicit, you know,
36:49
crimes and stuff. And I think, you know, if you
36:51
look at, you know, drug trading and you know, and trafficking
36:54
stuff, you have, I think you have the drug.
36:57
There's a thing called the drug police itself and also the
37:00
reason that they're able to, for example, are able to go, you
37:03
know, you know, let's say you discover, you know, OK, you
37:06
know, this person was evolved with the mule stuff is because I
37:08
use what's called high intelligence to do the evidence,
37:10
collect the evidence to see, you know, and by, you know, to see
37:14
who was actually evolved. And I think with that is where
37:16
that's where I think as you mentioned before, with the CIA,
37:19
you know, in America comes in stuff because I know what they
37:23
do is and you know, a procedure they do is because let's say, if
37:26
there's been, let's say, Oh, no, I'll just use it again as
37:29
example. You know, when, when 9 never
37:31
happened stuff at the September 11th.
37:33
And obviously they knew that obviously, you know, the person
37:36
responsible was the group responsible was Al Qaeda.
37:39
But they wanted, but they didn't know they wanted to go after the
37:41
leader to find and the other people that were responsible for
37:44
it. And the way they did that was
37:46
that they, you know, actually went to, I think I'm trusting,
37:49
you know, it was. So they went to, I think they
37:51
went to Afghanistan first, then they went to, I believe it was,
37:55
you know, Pakistan and stuff where they, you know, found the
37:58
people, some of the people who were involved in that group and
38:01
did the their questioning there through an opposite.
38:04
That's where I guess they use, but the what they did, they use
38:06
extreme measures of torture to get what they wanted.
38:09
This this feels like a like AI. Don't know if it's a silly
38:12
question per SE. We've spoken about governments.
38:17
Does transnational crime worsen or strengthen international
38:20
relations? I think Percy, from my
38:23
perspective, it I think it's one of the subjects way to be like,
38:27
I guess it's a divided subject because I can, you know, again,
38:32
I'll use a case study in this. If I could bring in an example
38:37
of this. So this is going back, I think I
38:40
believe all the way to I think, you know, for example, when the
38:43
19, I think it's the 1970s or the nineteen 1980s.
38:47
But when America, obviously, you know, at the time that was run
38:50
under the president, Jimmy, Jimmy Carter, who was the
38:53
president of the United States at the time.
38:54
And obviously the what he did was there was international, you
38:57
know, issues with at the time with Israel and, you know,
39:01
Palestine, Egypt. But what he did was but he, you
39:04
know, you know, sat like a meeting with Israel and the
39:08
leader of Egypt. I started to come to was called
39:11
Freeman International international agreement and
39:13
stuff to like come to, you know, to put aside the differences and
39:17
to strengthen and but they're needed was called other
39:19
countries abroad as well. I still have to help and I think
39:21
what he did was and it actually was successful and strengthened
39:25
other countries, you know, came together and Norway wasn't an
39:28
example of this. I came that actually helped to
39:31
with the with this peace process.
39:32
And obviously the impact of that is the way that strengthened
39:35
that relation was that in today's society, Israel, Egypt
39:40
or northern was called the not much of A, you know, conflict as
39:43
what it was before, because at that time it was like a heavy,
39:46
you know, a huge conference. So he actually what they did,
39:48
those people by working together, you know, helped,
39:51
helped to strengthen the international relations between
39:54
those countries around them. Thanks for sharing.
39:58
We're going to move it forward to the questions segment.
40:02
Wild. There's already been questions,
40:04
but the viewer questions, listener questions.
40:07
So thank you very much for sending these in Vilma and
40:10
Kerry. We'll start with almost
40:13
questions. Question number one, is it
40:16
possible that some transnational crimes like smuggling exist
40:21
because of unfair global systems rather than just bad people?
40:27
Yeah, I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, I would say probably that's an
40:30
interesting one because again, that goes back to, you know, the
40:33
subject of, you know, like, you know, like a corruption as well
40:36
and stuff. Because, you know, you can't see
40:38
obviously you've got the drug cartels, you got the, you know,
40:40
these organized criminal stuff. But obviously then you have to
40:43
look at who's actually really, you know, pulling the pulling
40:46
the the strings to operate these crimes.
40:49
Because obviously it's not just, you know, for example, it's not
40:51
just the drug cartels that are doing it on their own.
40:53
They needed what's called other, you know, you know,
40:55
international, what's called organization or even, you know,
40:58
help from what's called global, you know, you know, what's
41:01
called like the governor said, to help them, give them what
41:03
they were to and it as a much smuggling.
41:05
So like weapons traffic smuggling or trafficking stuff.
41:09
Obviously to get those weapons, they they obviously got the
41:12
weapons from, you know, other countries.
41:14
So they could then smuggle those, you know, those weapons,
41:17
you know, out of their country and they'll obviously get them
41:20
to make the money out of it. I still don't feel like it
41:24
addresses the the the question. I mean, the assumption is that
41:33
all criminals are bad, right? Yeah.
41:37
And I guess what this question is trying to stress is could it
41:40
not just be because if people feel maybe trapped under systems
41:46
that are not fair, could it not be that?
41:49
Like I'd leave it like that for the like the justice system I
41:52
talk about or. Could be maybe.
41:54
Yeah. I mean, for example,
41:59
historically, I know there's been crime in in certain
42:02
countries where it came about as a result of like that.
42:07
Prohibition is a good example. Al Capone did like a lot of bad
42:13
things, but he also did a lot of good things that people don't
42:15
always talk about. Like he, for example, invented
42:18
soup kitchens, I believe. Big thing that he he tried to do
42:22
because the government just wasn't doing anything.
42:25
And, you know, obviously that people begrudgingly accepted
42:28
that because it's from a criminal.
42:29
It's like, oh, but it was a lot of good things he did as well.
42:34
And that came about because of, you know, the system not taking
42:38
care of his people, you know? Yeah, yeah.
42:41
I think, yeah, that's a yeah, very interesting subject because
42:44
when it comes to, for example, I say said the system I like, for
42:47
example, whether that's the justice system and stuff.
42:50
Obviously you know what the question is, what role do they
42:53
play in this? Whether they, you know,
42:54
contribute to this or whether they, you know, what they really
42:57
care about the people, you know, of the, for example, of that
43:00
country or that state where these crimes are taking place.
43:05
And yeah, that's what I just wanted to say things.
43:09
It's like, you know, again, you know, of, you know of, you know,
43:12
whether they're contributing to this as well because of, you
43:15
know, for example, some of these people get unfair, you know,
43:17
sentences when they when they get caught.
43:21
Question number 2 When countries work together to fight crime,
43:25
who decides what justice of their laws and I values or
43:33
values are different? Do I get that right of their
43:36
laws and values are different? Maybe like who, who does who?
43:44
Who's justice system is taken into account?
43:49
Maybe who's who's is prioritized if if they clash on some level.
43:57
I think so. I think like without what is I
44:00
get it, it's a heavy so with terms like, you know, as
44:02
mentioned, like the the justice system itself, who actually is
44:05
in charge stuff because obviously each country, you
44:08
know, has their own set of laws and values and values and stuff.
44:11
So those are not every country, for example, will you know,
44:14
agree, agree with what I've done nothing.
44:16
Again, a perfect example again, I could, you know, I'll bring
44:20
it, you know, use this case study example would be that, you
44:23
know, so when they were looking for some, you know, where
44:26
they've looked for some of bin Laden and the al Qaeda group.
44:30
Question #3 Could technology like AI, i.e, deep fakes,
44:34
etcetera and cryptocurrency make transnational crime impossible
44:39
to control in the future? Oh, that's yeah, that's a very
44:43
it's accepted because I know AI artist tells us a big, you know,
44:47
the thing going on at the moment be used to different things that
44:49
if you look up specifically for like, you know, a transnational
44:52
crime and stuff, I can I would say it could do more more harm
44:58
than controlling it in the future itself.
45:01
Because, you know, it depends. Because obviously, again, it
45:03
could, you know, the question is, you know, how would it
45:06
control these, this form of crime?
45:08
Because, you know, rather, because don't forget, there's no
45:10
just one form of transnational crime because, you know,
45:13
millions of thousands of other forms transnational crime.
45:16
That's for sure. Question #4 Do you think we will
45:20
ever see a world where transnational crime doesn't
45:23
exist? Or is it simply part of human
45:26
nature? Yeah, I really like that
45:29
question. I think I'd get this in my
45:31
perspective. I think there will.
45:33
I don't think there will be like a society or or time where that,
45:37
you know, I think tries not to come, but one of the things will
45:39
always exist throughout human history, that stuff.
45:42
Because I feel like, you know, you can't fully what's called
45:46
eliminate, you know, any form of trans.
45:48
I mean, you could, you could tackle, you could reduce what's
45:50
called the, you know, for example, you could reduce the
45:52
number of people, you know, doing, for example, controlling
45:54
like that aspect. But it's like, for example,
45:56
terrorism. They you know, you know, for
45:58
example, even though that 911 happened and they caught the
46:01
people do it, it didn't stop that you know that group doing
46:04
the 7/7 bombings in London this stop the London bombing ever are
46:08
granted. They did, you know, threats
46:10
against Saudi even Kenya was a target as well after 9 I think
46:13
that was after 911 when they did the bubbly that was a bombing.
46:16
They they did that. But yeah, it should, I think the
46:19
best one of the things I believe will never ever fully,
46:22
completely what be wiped out so. We've got a couple of questions
46:26
from Kerry 999. Thank you very much, Kerry, for
46:29
sending these. In which country or countries
46:32
have zero crime? OK, I think I think it's
46:39
interesting one, but I think there's always, you know, every
46:42
country has a form of you know, your crime sapling, but I would
46:45
say I can I know people say Dubai, for example, which is in
46:49
the Middle East. As I say, that's meant to be one
46:51
of the safest place you could go there because the way that
46:54
they've could have the system there is that they control, you
46:57
know, the crime rates have been lower.
47:00
And so that's why they haven't had was called a major
47:02
international threats or they haven't had any, for example,
47:05
you know, cases of, you know, major transnational stuff
47:08
happening in that place because the way that the government has
47:11
what's called controlled, you know, that that particular, you
47:14
know, the country in the Middle East.
47:18
What would you say is the biggest international crime?
47:24
I would say the biggest form of international crime would be
47:27
definitely, I would say have to say terrorism stuff that would
47:31
be the biggest one. And because and also if
47:33
smuggling as smuggling as well as was trafficking, those are
47:37
the, I would say the biggest forms of transnational
47:40
international threats. What are the key defining
47:44
characteristics of transnational crime?
47:47
I think the key is to find out. So for example, one of the key
47:51
elements will be to see, you know, for example, it's to
47:55
operate, for example, that that group of the organized organized
47:58
crime group. For example, I, you know, I'll
48:00
use, you know, going back to that Japanese doomsay group,
48:03
except which is who did the Turkey Sarah night asset type,
48:06
because I was potentially, you know, you know, leading up to
48:09
international threats and what the way they go.
48:11
They were under, you know, after that threat happened with the
48:14
with the sarin a gas tanks. They were under a lot of
48:16
surveillance from, you know, from the CIA and the government
48:20
of, you know, Japan and stuff. And also it didn't just happen
48:23
straight away. They got caught.
48:24
It was over years. They caught, it was on.
48:26
It wasn't until I believe 2011 where all the people
48:29
responsible, even the leader got caught itself.
48:31
And and that happened with the attack up in 1992.
48:35
And the way he did it was that it was a lot of, you know,
48:36
inside jobs. They had to find out how to
48:39
operate these people. Final question for you, what are
48:41
the challenges to addressing transnational crime?
48:47
I think one of the main challenges will be that, you
48:49
know, for example, would you for I think one of the main
48:52
challenge would be like how, how to, you know, the reduction of
48:56
how to reduce this form of crime, Because I think it's
48:58
like, you know, how you control it and self because don't
49:01
forget, you know, one, one group life, for example, when like
49:04
it's like the Japanese, you know, didn't screw when that
49:05
even though that, you know, those those people got caught
49:08
and they were, you know, they got whatever sentence they got
49:11
another, they renamed themselves into something, something
49:14
different when they're a new leader.
49:16
And I think it didn't stop the group from doing what's called,
49:19
you know, for the terrorist acts.
49:20
The group are still operating. They're still doing the crime.
49:23
So I think it's one, it thinks it's like, make a chance to hire
49:26
you. You can't control one group
49:28
because it will always be a big challenge because there always,
49:30
someone else will always come a new leader or a new group will
49:33
always take over. Look at ISIS, they have a
49:35
perfect example. Or they took over.
49:37
You know what Al Qaeda was pretty much doing?
49:41
So as we kind of draw things to a close today, what's your final
49:47
message that you'd like to leave our audience with on the subject
49:51
of transnational crime? I think like, well, one subject
49:55
I would like to leave on the posting note actually, and
49:58
actually, this actually links to, I guess World Peace and
50:01
stuff, which is that, you know, again, you know, we I'd say, you
50:06
know, we should have a society where we put aside the
50:08
differences and just come together as human beings are
50:11
like, you know, 1 without, you know, any war discrimination,
50:14
without any, you know, hatred because it's like it's easier to
50:17
put aside differences, just come together rather than that.
50:20
But unfortunately, we people want to, you know, take that
50:23
fortune challenging route route and you know, you know, build
50:27
Society of, you know, so much corruption happening.
50:32
Thank you very much now for appearing on the show and for
50:36
joining us here today. All well for for helping us do
50:40
this show today on transnational crime.
50:43
Thank you so much. Thank you very much for pretty
50:46
good. Thank you.
50:47
And to all the listeners and watches of Christian Reef
50:51
Podcast, I hope you enjoyed this show as much as I did.
50:54
If you'd like to get access to bonus podcast content and to
50:58
support.mewiththisshowyoucandoso@patreon.com/christian Reeve.
51:04
And until next time, be safe. Be well.
51:07
I'll see you in the next one.