Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Maria Comella - How Campaigns Became An Industry & What Is Cost Us

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Interview Only w/ Maria Comella - How Campaigns Became An Industry & What Is Cost Us · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to
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  Speaker 1: you by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about Medicare
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere. And you're
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  Speaker 1: skeptical of that, as you should be. I get it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now.
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  Speaker 1: over exactly this, companies that branded themselves as unbiased while
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  Speaker 1: to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole
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  Speaker 1: reason I want to tell you about Chapter. They're independent
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  Speaker 1: it's across the board is what they're trying to do.
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  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, they're advocating for you.
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  Speaker 1: They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person
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  Speaker 1: who actually goes through your doctors, your prescriptions, your needs,
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  Speaker 1: I need help. You're like customer service. The plan, help
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  Speaker 1: me navigate this again. So you ever get hit with
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  Speaker 1: a wrongful medical bill, they'll help you fight it. They
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  Speaker 1: want to stay an advocate for you even after you've
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  Speaker 1: done this. So look, I get it. I think there's
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  Speaker 1: all sorts of space. You see a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: are throwing themselves in this health care space. What I
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  Speaker 1: like about these chapter folks, I've spent time with them.
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  Speaker 1: This is a very transparent organization. It is Medicare and
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  Speaker 1: all of its affiliated stuff can be very confusing. The
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  Speaker 1: whole point of this is to make this easier and
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  Speaker 1: less confusing. OK, so look, take the skepticism you already
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  Speaker 1: have in all of this, point it at your own
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  Speaker 1: plan for 20 minutes. It's free. There's no pressure. And
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  Speaker 1: then call chapter. today at 980-734-3985. Well, the topic of
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  Speaker 1: conversation today with my guest, my next guest is sort
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  Speaker 1: of the, what do consultants owe when it comes to
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  Speaker 1: ethics of candidates they recruit or candidates they choose to
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  Speaker 1: work for? Um, Maria Camilla, who has worked for both
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  Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans, in fact, worked at one point for
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  Speaker 1: the governor of New York and at one point for
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  Speaker 1: the former governor of New Jersey. She is yet to
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  Speaker 1: work for somebody from Connecticut, but she is going to
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  Speaker 1: cover the tri-state area, I think, at some point. But
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  Speaker 1: she wrote an interesting piece in Vanity Fair after the
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  Speaker 1: whole Graham Plattner debacle about this, which is, you know,
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  Speaker 1: what is the line? We all know the consultant industry
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  Speaker 1: is sometimes, you know, some of them just take whatever
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  Speaker 1: bag of cash a foreign leader will hand them. Because, hey,
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  Speaker 1: it's a bag of cash and it'll allow them to
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  Speaker 1: do good work when they're over here, right? There's always
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  Speaker 1: a rationalization when enough money is involved. But Maria, your
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  Speaker 1: piece was pretty, what I found interesting about it is
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  Speaker 1: that you didn't really have an answer. And I don't
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  Speaker 1: mean that in a negative. You were just sort of saying, hey, look,
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  Speaker 1: the incentive structures are so broken in so many places.
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  Speaker 1: And it's not just for the candidates that the incentive
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  Speaker 1: structures are broken when it comes to campaign finance and
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  Speaker 1: all this stuff. Where it's really broken is actually on
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  Speaker 1: the staff level and the consultant level, and sort of,
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  Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the influencer space, whether it's
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  Speaker 1: old-fashioned influence, like buying regulatory certainty or uncertainty, depending on
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  Speaker 1: your business, or this modern way of the influencer space,
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  Speaker 1: if you're trying to change the direction of the Democratic
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  Speaker 1: Party with socialists, for instance. So, but I thought it
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  Speaker 1: was interesting. You seem to be really offended by the
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  Speaker 1: Platner consultant's who knew all the flaws and covered them
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  Speaker 1: up anyway. Is that fair? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think it was something that I've been grappling
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  Speaker 2: with for a while. I think the Platner example just
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  Speaker 2: was very stark, right? So it was a really clear-cut
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  Speaker 2: way to kind of go into the conversation around what's happened,
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  Speaker 2: I think, to the consultant class over the last 15,
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  Speaker 2: 20 years. And I say this, like, understand that there's
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  Speaker 2: always been money in politics, right? It's not as if
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  Speaker 2: this is a new phenomenon. But the way the industry
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  Speaker 2: has grown over, you know, the last decade or so,
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  Speaker 2: I think is a different version of that.
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  Speaker 1: It's an industry now. Yeah. I would argue it wasn't
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  Speaker 1: fully an industry in the 80s and 90s, although maybe...
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  Speaker 1: Maybe somebody like myself who worked for a trade publication
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  Speaker 1: called The Hotline that was trying to make money off
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  Speaker 1: of this fledgling industry may have been an unfortunate contributor
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  Speaker 1: to creating the industry. But even back then, they were
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  Speaker 1: all boutique firms. They could barely afford The Hotline. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it wasn't an industry. It was more of a sort
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  Speaker 1: of a second ring that was connected to politics, but
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  Speaker 1: it wasn't quite its own thing. You know, like defense
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  Speaker 1: contractors were. And now it feels, yes, defense contractors are
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  Speaker 1: the lion's share of what's made D.C. the wealthy, one
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  Speaker 1: of the wealthiest places in the country. But the consultant
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  Speaker 1: class is, you know, not so distant second. No.
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  Speaker 2: And I think it and it's certainly I think changes
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  Speaker 2: the your incentives. But I think it goes back to
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  Speaker 2: like I feel like there was a time not to
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  Speaker 2: like once once once upon a time.
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  Speaker 1: Here we go. The good old days, which always were
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  Speaker 1: never as good as we want to believe. But they
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  Speaker 1: seem to be better than they are now.
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  Speaker 2: But one of the points that I make in the
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  Speaker 2: op-ed was sort of my own personal journey and the
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  Speaker 2: things that I learned. Because, right, I always like to say, like,
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  Speaker 2: you know, consultants, staffers, operatives, we're kind of, we're our
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  Speaker 2: own main character, right? So, like, you know, people are
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  Speaker 2: looking at a campaign.
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  Speaker 1: Well, somebody's got to look at your resume, Maria.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Somebody's got to look at your resume and go, huh.
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  Speaker 1: You work for Rudy Giuliani and Andrew Cuomo. So, you know,
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  Speaker 1: walk me through ethics on that. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And I think I tried to actually kind of front
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  Speaker 2: some of that because I'm very cognizant of that. And
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  Speaker 2: I I think there was something of being young and
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  Speaker 2: being exposed to principles and being on different races, which
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  Speaker 2: I sort of. I think I own that, and I
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  Speaker 2: certainly did. I went into it being very idealistic. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: that's why I got into politics. I wanted to change things.
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  Speaker 2: I was a big history buff, right? And I thought
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  Speaker 2: this is how you do it. And it's very intoxicating,
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  Speaker 2: particularly as a young person, you know, when you're on
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  Speaker 2: a campaign and you're in the throes of that and
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  Speaker 2: you're surrounded by, you know, I think what is adjacent
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  Speaker 2: power or is power and attention. And I think... For me,
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  Speaker 2: if I had being on those races and being exposed
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  Speaker 2: to different principles over time helped me determine who I
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  Speaker 2: who I am, you know, what do I actually believe in?
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  Speaker 2: Because I certainly went in very specifically as a party
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  Speaker 2: operative in some ways. You know, I didn't know, but
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  Speaker 2: there's two parties. You pick one and that's what you do.
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  Speaker 2: And I think being able to sort of see over time, right,
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  Speaker 2: different individuals for who they are, because I think that's
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  Speaker 2: that's that's a piece that I kind of I came
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  Speaker 2: to a place where I could determine what. you know,
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  Speaker 2: the lines were for me. And I think the interesting thing,
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  Speaker 2: you know, even getting to the point of you raising,
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  Speaker 2: you know, Governor Cuomo, you know, I went into work
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  Speaker 2: for him, you know, at a time where Trump had
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  Speaker 2: become president. I wasn't sure that I was quite ready
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  Speaker 2: to give a public service. It felt like a way
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  Speaker 2: to still be involved when I wasn't quite, you know,
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  Speaker 2: ready to leave it. And And it actually was sort
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  Speaker 2: of the most personal growth moment for me in some respects,
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  Speaker 2: because it was one of the jobs that I left
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  Speaker 2: before it just ended. And that was a personal choice
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  Speaker 2: because at some point I realized it wasn't where I
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  Speaker 2: wanted to be or the right fit for me for
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  Speaker 2: a lot of reasons. And most of that was my
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  Speaker 2: own personal choice. lines in terms of how I think
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  Speaker 2: things should be, the business should be conducted. But it
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  Speaker 2: took me a decade to get there. And so I
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  Speaker 2: own that. There were times where I didn't always make
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  Speaker 2: or show up in that way in terms of the choice,
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  Speaker 2: whether it was something small or something larger.
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  Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I've had similar experiences just sort of
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  Speaker 1: with You know, I always say I in hindsight, did
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  Speaker 1: I round some edges because I didn't want to cause
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  Speaker 1: grief internally with executives? I didn't want to create a
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  Speaker 1: beef with the morning show if they were trying to
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  Speaker 1: book somebody. Right. And you do. And I think we
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  Speaker 1: all realize this when you especially you join any organization
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  Speaker 1: where you're not in charge of every decision. You've got
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  Speaker 1: to sort of go along to get along a little bit. Right.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you can you can push where you can.
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  Speaker 1: And you tell yourself, I'm going to push where I
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  Speaker 1: can and I'm going to back off. And look, I
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  Speaker 1: picked my spots. You picked your spots and you do
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  Speaker 1: the best you can. But I know people can go
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  Speaker 1: back and say, well, you know, why didn't you speak
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  Speaker 1: up then? And why didn't you speak up then? And
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  Speaker 1: it's like, they're fair critiques. I can give you a
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  Speaker 1: perfectly good explanation. Let me show you the situation I
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  Speaker 1: was in. And it's why I'm always trying to be
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  Speaker 1: more careful as I've gotten older. to, um, not assume
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  Speaker 1: every staffer wanted to go along with whatever scandal that the, the,
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  Speaker 1: the officer did that the, whoever's in office did because,
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  Speaker 1: you know, they have a mortgage to pay. They have
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  Speaker 1: a family to feed. We don't know, you know, it's like,
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  Speaker 1: you don't know until you know the situation they're in. Right. 100%.
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  Speaker 2: And I think.
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  Speaker 2: To your point, this isn't just something in politics, right?
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  Speaker 2: It's in any industry, particularly if you're, you know, sort of,
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  Speaker 2: you know, playing at the top. And I think that's
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  Speaker 2: why I sort of say, like, I'm not going to
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  Speaker 2: be naive about this. There's a reality of the world
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  Speaker 2: that we operate in that, okay, there's some things that
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  Speaker 2: are going to be the way they're going to be. And,
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  Speaker 2: you know, to sort of say, if you're going to
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  Speaker 2: be in the arena, you're going to be faced with
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  Speaker 2: difficult decisions and you're going to have to make the
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  Speaker 2: best possible decision you can at the moment. Um, to me,
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  Speaker 2: that's slightly different than, than where we kind of are
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  Speaker 2: today in some of the decisions that are made. And
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  Speaker 2: I think the platter one was, is a good example
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  Speaker 2: of that because in some respects it's like, what is
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  Speaker 2: this for? And what is it really about?
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe I'm giving more grace, you know, um, when you
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  Speaker 2: kind of enter into something, believing in an individual and
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  Speaker 2: then information comes to light or, you know, things become
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  Speaker 2: more complex.
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  Speaker 1: Let's, you know, I think two comparisons here could be
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  Speaker 1: John Edwards, Graham Plattner. Plattner, the flaws were there before
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  Speaker 1: he became a candidate. Edwards was a different situation. And
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  Speaker 1: so there were people that felt let down by him.
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  Speaker 1: But who he was when he entered politics, it was
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  Speaker 1: something that happened. He couldn't handle the fame. That's what
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  Speaker 1: it turned out, ultimately. And I've got like a million
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  Speaker 1: other theories, I think. I have a lot of empathy
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  Speaker 1: for the Edwardses because I think when you lose a child,
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  Speaker 1: you do– you never get over that and you do
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  Speaker 1: some radical things sometimes that maybe make no sense in
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  Speaker 1: the moment. But I think if you look at the
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  Speaker 1: totality of that situation, I have nothing but empathy there
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  Speaker 1: versus a Platner. And this is where you got at it,
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  Speaker 1: which is they were looking– it was almost like they
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  Speaker 1: were looking for an avatar, right? Right. And and he
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  Speaker 1: was this incredible avatar. And they were like, well, let's
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  Speaker 1: not look under the hood. Oh, no, we looked under
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  Speaker 1: the hood. Oh, let's let's shut the hood because the
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  Speaker 1: avatar is so good. We're able to run a socialist
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  Speaker 1: adjacent campaign with this big, rugged, good looking guy that that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, can be, you know, the Gordon's fisherman here. Right, right.
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  Speaker 2: It checks the boxes, but we perceive that to be.
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  Speaker 2: And I think what kind of got me with that,
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  Speaker 2: and there's a little bit of this like kind of
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  Speaker 2: narrative coming even off of it is, You know, throwing
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  Speaker 2: around the term authenticity or we we don't want perfect candidates.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm so done with authenticity, though. I mean, it's
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  Speaker 1: like we've ruined the word, haven't we?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not in itself a value. It's it's a
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  Speaker 2: descriptor for sure. But then what's behind what are you
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  Speaker 2: authentic about? Like that we're sort of missing the next
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  Speaker 2: piece of that. Like you could be authentic, but like,
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  Speaker 2: what are you authentic about?
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  Speaker 1: And are you authentically lazy? You know, I'm an authentically
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  Speaker 1: lazy person. I think, you know, whatever. I mean, it
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  Speaker 1: is sort of a dumb when you really think about
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  Speaker 1: it with a word descriptive that we've turned into an
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  Speaker 1: adjective that isn't that great. No.
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  Speaker 2: And I think this idea of. you know, sort of
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  Speaker 2: embracing or sort of using it as a defense. Well,
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  Speaker 2: we want flawed candidates or real people does a disservice
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  Speaker 2: to quote unquote real people. But I think gets at
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  Speaker 2: sort of, you know, I was trying to make the
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  Speaker 2: point of particularly using Mayor Giuliani as an example for me.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: I think he was because I was young and he
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  Speaker 2: was really the first kind of formidable candidate that I
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  Speaker 2: worked for. I really saw a nuanced person. I saw
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  Speaker 2: him as a person, not just as You know, the man,
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  Speaker 2: the sort of America's mayor, right, kind of what we
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  Speaker 2: what we all project on some of our officials, particularly
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  Speaker 2: at certain points in time. And I think that's important
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  Speaker 2: because particularly if you're working, you have to understand these
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  Speaker 2: are people, they are going to be nuanced. And you
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  Speaker 2: have to kind of be able to have enough familiarity
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  Speaker 2: with that to understand when that nuance occurs. like works
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  Speaker 2: and is okay. And there's, and it, and because whatever
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  Speaker 2: else that person brings to the table in terms of
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  Speaker 2: what they believe, what they can do, how effective they
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  Speaker 2: are as a leader is one thing versus they're just
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  Speaker 2: kind of a terrible person or do awful things. Right.
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  Speaker 2: So I just think we've kind of, we're using this idea.
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  Speaker 2: We don't want someone who's perfect in a way to me.
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  Speaker 2: That's a little bit, it's a little bit false because,
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  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about how the system itself can supercharge
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  Speaker 1: a flaw. And let's use Giuliani as an example, because,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I think when you first started working for Giuliani,
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  Speaker 1: there was this nuanced figure. He was still. He was
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  Speaker 1: extremely confident, but also was self-aware of what he didn't know. So,
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  Speaker 1: you know, meaning like. I think he was continuing trying
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: to grow. He went from prosecutor to mayor. Then he
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: was trying to go from mayor to statesman, right? So
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  Speaker 1: you got to him when he was still trying to grow,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: trying to learn, trying to advance. But he had, look,
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  Speaker 1: he had his own narcissistic qualities. He had his own things.
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  Speaker 1: And the spotlight in some ways may have been in
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  Speaker 1: the same way that I think John Edwards couldn't handle it.
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  Speaker 1: turns out maybe Rudy couldn't handle it. And the version
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  Speaker 1: of Rudy now, and even let's go five years ago, Rudy,
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  Speaker 1: I think now he's quite sick. But he became sort
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  Speaker 1: of the caricature of himself. And I do think that
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  Speaker 1: happens over time. Like even Donald Trump is now a
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: caricature of what Trump was even 10 years ago. And
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  Speaker 1: yet he's behaving like the caricature now, even more than
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  Speaker 1: he did at the time. I think some of that
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  Speaker 1: is age. Right. But I think I wonder how much
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  Speaker 1: of this is the system sort of the way our
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  Speaker 1: system does it. It almost emphasizes the war. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: No, I think it's interesting because, you know, it's almost
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  Speaker 2: like we've like. We've, of course, corrected too much in
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  Speaker 2: one direction, right? I think, you know, there was a time, right,
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  Speaker 2: where I think, you know, on either side, there'd be
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  Speaker 2: a flaw, like there would be something that would get
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  Speaker 2: in the spotlight of a candidate, whether it's John Edwards
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  Speaker 2: or Rudy with his personal life, however we want to
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  Speaker 2: kind of characterize it. and there'd be a lot of
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  Speaker 2: focus on that, right? And it would be the thing
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  Speaker 2: that people would hang their hat on. Well, if for this,
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  Speaker 2: does that mean, you know, he's worthy of being president,
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  Speaker 2: of being mayor, governor, whatever it is. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: people who are defenders would be like, this feels too much.
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  Speaker 2: It feels overblown, you know, putting you in the context
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  Speaker 2: of all of these things. And now we've like gone
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  Speaker 2: to the complete other side where it's like everything is like,
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  Speaker 2: just throw it all out there and everything's fine and defensible.
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  Speaker 1: There's no character test. Right.
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  Speaker 2: We don't even want that.
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  Speaker 1: Right. We went from, I do think character still to
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  Speaker 1: this day is sort of eye of the beholder, right? Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But I do think we all fundamentally want some character
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  Speaker 1: in office, right? Some higher level of character than ourselves. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And because so much of that comes down to decision-making,
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  Speaker 2: and I know it feels like very quaint in terms
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  Speaker 2: of the politics we are in today, but ultimately, the
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  Speaker 2: person is going to be president. You see how this
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: plays out even today, right?
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: How does that character show up in their ability to
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: fulfill the role and make decisions that are going to
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: be ethically and morally complex? Because that is what that
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: person is going to have to face. And let's be honest,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: they're not always going to get it right. And sometimes
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: the American people have grace for that. And sometimes by
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: more often than not, they won't. And can they withstand that? Right. Um,
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: and so when I think of how do we measure
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: that during a candidacy, I guess the quaintness of me
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: is like, well, how I'm looking at that in terms
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: of how will that, how will that show up when
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: they're in office? And, um, And that can be different
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: than some of the kind of personal stuff, whether it's
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: affairs or whatnot, that people have said, well, that doesn't
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: necessarily bleed over into my belief that this person can
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: still make the kind of right decisions on the big,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: important issues. And that makes it all very gray, for sure.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: What's the line? So there was the one Platner staffer, remember,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: early on, and she decided to go public. Yeah. Said, look,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I know of these texts. This is just, you know,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: this was... This was the bridge too far for me,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: and I decided I needed to share this. And to me,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: that is quite the dilemma if you're a consultant, because
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: on one hand, you walk into that room and you
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: want to build trust with a candidate. And like, look,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: we all have flaws. We know what could be– and
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: what you really want to know is just tell me
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: what is likely to be weaponized against you. And I want–
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: And you're basically trying to reassure this person, I want
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: to help. Okay, I'm here to help. I know, you know,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: we know that, you know, and then, but then the
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: more you learn, you start to go, okay, at what point, right?
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: When does it, and I, you know, look, I always
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: say this about Trump, and I say this to my
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: spouse all the time when she gets worked up and
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I say, remember, everybody has a line. It's just not
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: in the same place. Trump eventually crosses everybody's line. Right.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: I always say, you know, for Liz Cheney, you know,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: she was with him until January 6th. You know, you know,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: John Bolton was with him through, you know, the three
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: through the Iran debacles and stuff like that. You know,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: the point is, is that like everybody has a line
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: and it's in a different place. What did you make
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: of that decision by her? And You know, is there
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: a right answer here for a consultant who on one hand,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you're in that room building trust with that candidate and
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: their spouse, and you're hoping to essentially, you're trying to
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: help them mitigate what could be a problem. And then
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: you realize, wait a minute, this person doesn't have the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: character to hold office. What's the ethical, would you just
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: simply resign? Or would you go that next step and say,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: you know what, this is going to, if I can't
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: about the democratic party, I ought to torpedo this now.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's really personal. And I, I
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: think what she did, um, takes like take Scots. Cause
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: I think it is hard when you are in the
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: room and, um, You're also close to something and everyone
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: else is like, this is going to be fine. This
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: is going to be fine. And also just sort of
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: the nature of being in the world and in this work, right?
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you kind of can't comprehend, like, am I really
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: going to walk away from this, right? Because it is
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: so rare. And it almost feels crazy to be doing that.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: And you also kind of assume... sometimes in those situations
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: as well, is there like, am I seeing this wrong?
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: And is everyone else seeing this, you know, in the
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: right way.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Right. Right.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Um, and so I do think it's like, so I
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: think it's very personal. And so clearly for her, what
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: she saw, you know, hit her line. And I think
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I don't, um, I don't pass judgment on whether you
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: take that public or not.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: I do think in the context of Platner, there was
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: enough stuff that was circulating and public that was being
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: dismissed that I can understand the timing and why.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of like, OK, people aren't paying attention
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: to this. It felt like it might come out like
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: in due course and it's not or it's come out
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: and everyone's like we're explaining it away. And justifying it.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: And to me, that goes to the larger problem with
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: the sort of approach to his candidacy and the justification
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: piece of it. And, you know, like the slippery slope
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: that comes from that, as I kind of was making
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: the point about, you know, how is this really different
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: than how Republicans started down the slope of justifying certain
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: things with Trump? to get and to get comfortable with
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: him because it's going to mean, you know, lower taxes
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: or the Supreme Court or whatever, you know, pick the
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: issue that you care about. And I feel like Democrats
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: essentially fell into the same place with Plattner. And and again,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: like I think that is like the larger issue than
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: with both sides from a sort of establishment operative perspective.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Hey, this episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought
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• 23:20
  Speaker 1: August of 2026. I always thought that the second Trump
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: term was always going to be more damaging to the
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Democratic Party than to the Republican. It was always going
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: to change the Democratic Party more than the Republican Party. Right.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Which was the first Trump term was treated as an outlier.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: And the Democratic Party acted that way. And they didn't
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: try to emulate. I'm not saying everybody was that case.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: But now that Trump's back, there's the assumption of, oh,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: this works.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: It's trying to replicate tactics.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Versus which I think, you know, I kind of versus
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: the harder work of how do we really from a
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: policy and political perspective, how are we actually talking about
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: things and connecting with voters? and trying to persuade them
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: on the substance versus let's just emulate tactics that have
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: worked in a broader way, which again, I don't think
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: is effective because the tactics have worked for Trump because
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: he's Trump in a lot of ways, right?
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be remained to be seen. Well, look at
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Abdul El-Sayed with Piker. He's basically pulling a Trump, right?
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Trump never apologizes, won't apologize for being with Nick Fuentes, right?
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: And he seems to get away with it. And I
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: think the Abdul El-Sayed campaign or at least he's decided,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: if Trump doesn't have to apologize, I'm not going to apologize.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: You know, I'll say I'm not going to bring him around.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I'll say, I don't know why anybody cares, but I'm
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: not going to go that next step. And because once you,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: you know, the Trump mindset is once you apologize for one,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you know, which is not wrong, right?
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: There is totally not wrong. Yeah, that's what we all
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: used to do.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Right, exactly. So there is this, and yet it does
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: feel as if, If you're borrowing a page from the
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Trump playbook, are you sure you wanna be borrowing that page?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Right, well, I think that's, I mean, that's the larger
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: existential question for everyone in this, right? And that's why
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, I don't know that I didn't, I don't
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: have an answer Because I think it is existential and feels,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: you know, very personal for all of the people who
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: operate within this industry. And it would be I will
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: say it was nice to hear from a lot of
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: sort of current and former operatives who were very like
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: who felt the same way. And that was encouraging. I
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, it's good to know there's some of
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: you out there who were kind of like, yeah, this sucks.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: So we should be we should be doing better. Yeah. So,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: you know, because I do I do think there's I
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: do think there are people in the industry out there.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: They're just maybe not the ones who are getting the
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: getting the New York Times profiles.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: So, well, you know, it's yeah. Well, and I do
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: think the the delegitimization of media, meaning that the idea
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that it's all partisan now, then even the vetting that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: media does of candidates is. not seen you know it's
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: sort of like when a left of center media organization
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: takes down a democratic candidate it's taken seriously and when
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: a right of center organization takes down a republican candidate
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: it's taken seriously but you rarely see it now the
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: other way.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah because of well there's like a piece of
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: a distrust right and um yeah.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I let me give you I'm curious if you've looked
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: at the Natalie Harp story the way I've looked at
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: the Natalie Harp story. And let me give you my
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: quick framing of it. I think the reason why we
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: know so much about her relationship with Trump is somebody's
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: leaking this stuff from inside the White House because they
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: can't talk to the candidate. In this case, the principal,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: he's sort of not going to listen on this. They
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: think this is a problem. And they think maybe if
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: we go public and the public reacts of how weird
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: this is, maybe he'll get the message that way. I
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: don't know that this is how this has happened, but
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: here's what I do know. These leaks didn't come from Democrats.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: And we do know there is a concern of who's
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: in the circle. Who gets into that office? I mean,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I had somebody remind me the other day that the
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: entire Bill Pulte situation literally happened on a day that
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Susie Wiles was getting treatment for her breast cancer and
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: wasn't there to essentially intercept one of those ridiculous appointments
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: that Trump made of Pulte as the acting DNI head, right? Yeah.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I have looked at the entire harp story through, hmm,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: somebody in the West Wing is trying to essentially mitigate this,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: realizes this is only going to get worse, and at
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: least wants to get this in the ether to hope
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that the principle maybe backs off a little bit. Did
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: you see it similarly? Because you know how that world
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: operates a little bit. Yeah.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is, I think it is interesting how
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: it sort of suddenly like kind of blew up and,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: you know, came to light. And there does seem very
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: like specific things.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: That somebody would access. Who else is getting these letters?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Like, where is that coming from?
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Right. It is not coming from Hakeem Jeffries' office. Okay.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Or Chuck Schumer's office. Yes. Yeah.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: I think what's interesting about that is, well, one, thinking
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: that kind of the traditional method of how you might
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: shame or an official who wasn't listening into action would
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: work with Donald Trump.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: And you've been involved in operations that have tried to
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: do that. Well, we can't. He's not listening to us.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe he'll listen to The New York Post, you know. Yeah.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: And yeah. And so, I mean, but I think then
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: but then you kind of saw the sort of rallying around.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Because. you know, again, the dynamic here is that, you know,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Republicans and individuals, they're not going to speak out of
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: school or out of turn.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And they're going to, you know, they're going to defend
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: this and explain it away.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: So you kind of saw them the interesting, I guess,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: maybe the backfiring of it, of the tactics didn't quite work.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Because that's the way the tactics are in this day
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: and age. And, you know, and I just thought it
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: was interesting, you know, to see the kind of the outrage,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: you know, in terms of how, you know, the descriptors
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: or the language that was being used to describe Natalie,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: or the very, you know, Ossoff to me felt like
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: it was a very benign, you know, turn of phrase
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: when he, you know, mentioned her.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: In his rally. Oh, it was definitely, they, it does
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: strike me as huh, why did you guys react so
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: badly to that small little, I mean, there wasn't even
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: a high, hard one in baseball. That was like, yeah,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: it was a little bit inside. Yeah.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: But also, you know, from, you know, being sitting where
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: I'm sitting, you know, the whole thing feels a little,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I want to say hypocritical, but it's kind of like, well,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: how can it's like, you know, the boycott wolf, like
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: everyone acts so outraged when it's related to them, but
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: has no qualms using aggressive language or throwing the same
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: lobs on the other side. So, you know, for me,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I kind of looked at it and I was like,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: this is just a perfect example of how none of
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: this really matters. We're going to be outraged, even though
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: the language we use in the tenor reviews and language
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Trump's use, you know, has been aggressive when it's related
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: to women, women's staff, women elected officials. So, you know,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: what are we talking about here? Which I had to
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: sort of say, I was like, unbelievably shocked to sort
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: of see Jesse Watters, like admit to him not being
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: upset about the awesome thing because Trump said worse. And
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: he was kind of like, and I defended it. So
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: what am I going to do?
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: And I was like, wow. It was the most self-aware
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: thing Jesse Watters has ever said. It was, you know,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: it was one of those you're like. Um, yeah.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, correct. Okay. You know, it was sort of like, well,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I guess the stop clock, right? It's, it's right. It's right. Every, uh,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: twice a day. Um, well, it's just, it, and I
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: guess it gets to what I want to get to,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: which is, you know, and, and I guess I'm trying
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: to evolve the conversation a little bit. When did, how
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: can you communicate how to mitigate bad behavior when you're,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: when the principal won't listen.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's sometimes you can't, right? And I
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: think that's the thing that as, you know, and that's
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: where maybe the line or the choices come, right? Like,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: you know, look, like I think a lot of times
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: we put blame or we ascribe, you know, this individual
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: is underserved by their staff. Like the staff should have
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: been in front of this.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: That's what, you know, the only time a Republican elected
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: in Congress criticizes Trump, they never criticized Trump. I can't
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: believe the advice he got on this. And you're just like, oh, yeah,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: it was advice.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: But OK, totally. But at some point you're like, well,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: this is the person who was elected by the American people. But,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: you know, staff is not elected.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Right. We're not.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: This is paid at the will of whoever we're working for. And,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: you know, ideally, if you voted for this person or
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: they're holding office like, you know, President United States, they
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: should be able to make some basic decisions without needing permission.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: you know, the judgment of, you know, 5,000 staffers, um,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: to hold them accountable. And so that's why I think
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: like there are certain forms of obviously, you know, I
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: want to say like protecting a candidate or an elected
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: official from themselves and kind of knowing where their flaws
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: are and, you know, helping that, helping facilitate that versus
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: getting to the point where there's just at some point
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: they're going to be who they're going to be. And, um,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: You can't you can't necessarily change that. And, you know,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: and at some point, nor should you, because ideally you've
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: elected that you've worked for that person. That person's gotten
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: elected and you've made a choice at some point where
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: you felt comfortable enough to work for them. And and
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: that's where I think the choice piece comes in. And
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: and the line that anyone I think if you get
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: to a point where there's really bad behavior and you're like,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: it's not changing, then. everyone kind of has a responsibility
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: to themselves to make choices for themselves and own those choices,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: whether you decide to stay or not. And and I
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: think that's the most important thing. Like you have to
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: own that choice no matter which direction it goes in.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: We sort of switch gears slightly because you have a
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: unique perspective. You have literally worked for both parties. You've
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: worked for presidential candidates now in both parties, not just
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Not just in some medium level, at the highest levels,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: whether it's Giuliani for president, whether it's Kamala Harris and
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: helping with Republicans for Kamala Harris. Obviously, when they hired
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: you to get some advice on this, they believed there
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: was a slice of voters that were persuadable. Who are
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: these Republican voters that you think are persuadable? And what
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: do you expect them to do in 26?
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's interesting because I actually think how
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: people have defined themselves specifically by party is shifted. So
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I think particularly, you know, I mean, I think the
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Harris campaign had one idea about this. I think I
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: have some other ideas based on Right. Data and kind
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: of looking at sort of shifting ideology. Right. That you,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: I think, have people who are both identified as Republicans,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: but also people are identified as Democrats and certainly nonpartisan blanks,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: independents who are kind of, I think, form this sort of.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: I would say this other swath of voters. And I
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: would say that there's a subset of Republicans just as
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: much as there's of Democrats that do not feel like
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: they're being served by their current, you know, parties.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Do you believe that those folks are now actually where
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: they can registering as independent, even if they are mostly partisan?
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think and I think that's why I
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: even think about targeting and who you're going after. You
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: kind of have to evolve beyond just the, you know,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: sort of party idea and And primary turnout, because when
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: it comes to the general, it's, you know, look, sometimes
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: this is going to be the harder group to persuade
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: to actually turn out. But they they definitely do not
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: feel like they're being served by either like party framework.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: And it's almost like there's there's like almost. I don't
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: say there's like four parties. I feel like I was
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: having this conversation with someone.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I'm a believer that we might be better off as
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: a four party system. Right.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Because there's only two, almost two subsets on each side. Right.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: You've kind of got like the establishment Democrats. You've got
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: kind of D.S.E. progressives on the Republican side of what
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: we're calling really MAGA and then actually like Republicans. So, yeah.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: So I think it's it's a little bit. So I
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: do think there there's room to pull from from from both.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: The real question, I think, in terms of what happens
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: in 26, I think it's going to be candidate dependent
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: because then that voter is going to be motivated by
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: something that's just not purely ideological from a partisan perspective.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: You know, and so if you're looking to appeal to
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: that voter, it's like appealing to them, not in like
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: partisan terms, but, you know, on the on the issues
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: and the substance that's going to move them that they're
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: caring about right now. And it's a little bit of
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: I would say it's a little bit of a dance,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: but it's more like you've got to then meet that
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: voter where they are in terms of where you are
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: from a geographic perspective more than anything else. Because I
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: don't think obviously what works in New York isn't going
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: to work in Texas.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, I've I've I've I've come to believe that
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: the Senate is is a three state contest and it's Michigan,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Iowa and Texas in some form. Yeah. OK, meaning, you know, look,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: if Democrats hold Michigan, then maybe they don't have to
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: worry about Texas or Iowa. But if they don't, they've
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: got to win Texas or Iowa.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Like it's the math is the math. And so and
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: I think this strategy is true whether you're Rogers or
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: whether you're Turek. OK, whether you're Tallarico or whether you're Turek,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: which is who's persuadable and who do you want to
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: give an exit ramp to to a third party candidate? So, right,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: like Jon Tester won two of his three statewide races,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: thanks to libertarians who made the who were lowered the
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: winning number from 50 plus one to forty eight point five. Right. Yeah.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: How much of your time would you be telling a
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Tallarico or a Turek or a Rogers to be focused
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: on persuasion versus actually what you really want is to
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: convince them to either skip the race or vote third party?
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think I would be focused on persuasion
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: just in terms of your actual ability to To move in.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: And because I look, I think that's like I would
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: say it's like more complicated. But I mean, again, it
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: depends on your resources and like how much time you
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: have to ideally.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe I look at a guy like a lot of money.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I'm very skeptical he can get to 50. That doesn't
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: mean that Paxton can get to 50 either. Right. Right. And,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: you know, Paxton, that race has libertarians going to get
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: three points written all over it. And you could just picture, oh,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Tallarico wins 48-47 because essentially an Abbott got 50, you know,
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: say 52. Right. And you could see like, oh, I
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: know where those voters went. They didn't vote for Tallarico.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: They voted, you know, Libertarian. The question is, do you
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: actively try to get that or do you in the
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: in your art of persuasion, you know, you just make
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: sure that exit ramp exists?
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I would I mean, I would be more
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: of the the persuasion and then with an exit ramp. Right.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: And I think in Texas, the Tallarico specifically, you know,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: he's an adept candidate. And I think is if there
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: is a place to do that. Right. He seems like.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: like he seems like he understands like the job currently, right.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: That he's going to have to win Republicans and people
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: who wouldn't be inclined to vote for him. And I
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: think he's done a job of which I think is
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: true in these cases is like, you know, you kind
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: of have to hit the high notes on like the
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: issues that people would care about, but doing the work
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: of getting them to like you enough or be comfortable
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: enough with you.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Because that's, you know, that's like, that's, that's, that's part
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: of it. Right. Cause you're, you're trying to get someone
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: who's non-inclined normally to vote for someone with a D
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: in front of their name. to just be receptive to
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: you and feel like this is that this is I'm
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: more comfortable with this certainly than the alternative, even if
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: I don't agree with you on everything. And that's not
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: really dissimilar, frankly, than, you know, the strategy in 2009,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: you know, with Governor Christie running.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: You know, as a Republican in a blue state. Right.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: So we.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: He won without 50, didn't he? Didn't he like it? 49.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Wasn't it a 49, 48? There was a third party,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: a green party, I think.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think part of it was, as we
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: always kind of thought about it, it's like, okay, we know,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: and I mean, economic issue is always key thing, right?
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: And it almost feels like it never really changes in
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: terms of affordability. It's always an affordability, right? Or a
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: different turn of phrase. But then, so people could connect
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: on that. There's a frustration there, but it's like, oh,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: can I trust this guy in other areas, right? So
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: it's like, how do you address those and make them comfortable?
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: And so they're kind of like, OK, I know you're
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: going to be more effective on getting this done. And
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: I'm more comfortable. I'm comfortable enough with you that it's
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: OK now. And I think in Texas, Mike Rogers.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: How about a Mike Rogers? How would you look at
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: that with the situation he is? His is not scant. Like,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: you know, he's got a there's a scandal. There's two
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: different types of penalties. I went through this deep dive.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: There's the ideological penalty. You're you're. You're too far out
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: of supposedly what the Overton window is in your state. Right.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Todd Akin was that back in 2012. That was too
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: far out of the Overton window for people. Mandela Barnes
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: in 2022. Right. Evers, you know, the Democratic wins. The
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Democrat wins the governor's race, but it was close. And
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Mandela Barnes underperformed about three points. And that was the
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: difference between winning and losing. Maybe maybe had it been
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: a bigger Democratic state. Mandela Barnes survives, right? So if
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: you're Rogers, how do you deal with what is clearly
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: you're going to, you're not going to have a gubernatorial
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: candidate helping you as much with turnout. You're going to,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: you know, you got to talk to, you got to
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: win over some of those voters. How do you.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Do it?
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, this becomes like an issue of
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: like really which demo demographics, and I've looked as closely
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: at this in terms of the last few races in Michigan,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: but like what are the demographics that like that writers
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: needs to turn out right that are not as great
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: right because that feels like that that feels like this
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: race to me does feel like more of a turnout
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: and how do you really target and talk to the
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: constituencies that particularly as it relates this dynamic are going
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: to have the most concerns right um because you're not
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: i think in terms of because it's going to be,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to be a lot, I want
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: to say more nuanced, but it's going to be more
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: targeted and specific, right? Because you could argue on like
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: the economics and affordability piece, like Roger's at a disadvantage, right? So.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Well, that's his, I think that's Roger's problem, right? It's like,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: I think there's, He needed– ideological penalties are one thing,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: but you kind of– he probably needed a scandal penalty,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: and he doesn't have that without Abdul Al-Sayed. Yeah. You
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: could say, well, you know, he seems like a nice
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: enough guy. I just– you know, I don't agree with
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: him on this type of thing.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Versus a Paxton, you can really play the– you trust him,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: you know? You trust him with your own kids, with
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: your own money. Yeah.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say like the dynamic is
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: sort of for a Democrat in Texas, a perfect storm
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: of Tallarico as a candidate and Paxton as a candidate
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: and any other matchup. I don't even know if there
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: would there truly would be a chance. And I think, yeah,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: and I think it'll be interesting to see if like
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Tallarico can pull it off. And is the reality like
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: it's just really tough for a Democrat to win statewide?
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Because I do think you do have you do have
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: a perfect storm with Paxton. And I think he's right
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: at this point, a pretty big disadvantage. I think there's
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: money wise. I think a third party is coming in.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: It's, you know, it is, you know, sometimes politics is simple. Hey,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: candidate has more money than good candidate has more money
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: than bad candidate. Like we're seeing this in Iowa. Rise
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Rob Sand winning. He's a good candidate. He has more money.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: The Republicans nominated somebody who isn't a full-time resident. Yeah.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: That doesn't work in Iowa. Good luck with that. You know? Yeah.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: No, it's true.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: And I mean, it is really, it's basic, but it
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: is also just really true that like a good candidate,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: it's a good candidate. And, um, you know, you can
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: get complicated about all the rest and the issue and
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: the targeting. And you're like, but again, if the candidate
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: at the top isn't any good, is it going to matter?
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: You know? Um, and I don't know that, and I
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: don't know that it does.
• 44:17
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• 45:56
  Speaker 1: for governors, I'm curious... And I'm sure, you know, without
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: you giving away any private sector clients you're doing, how
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: would you be handling this data center situation if you're
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: a politician? And how would you be handling this if
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: you were a tech company?
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'll kind of go backwards. I think
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: because I think we're in this situation because of the
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: way tech companies have handled it, right, which has created,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: which has allowed it to be this like political punching bag. Um,
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: I think the broader issue with big tech always has
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: been this idea of like, we're just going to come
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: in and we're going to, you know, throw money at
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: it and we're just going to bulldozer over.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: And versus an approach, we've seen this a lot of
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: different areas of tech. I mean, going back to ride
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: sharing at the very beginning, um, without, um, yeah, they.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Did sort of just bulldoze communities with the taxicab, those
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: poor taxicab units all thought they had allies in these
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: city governments and state governments and, Nope. Tech had more money. Sorry. Yeah.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: And, you know, and I think as opposed to sort
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: of like a ground up, you know, approach in terms
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: of how are we creating buy and how are we
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: starting small? How are we kind of? how are we
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: seeding the story of what this does, what like its impact,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: whether it's from an economic perspective or otherwise. And like,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: that does take time versus I think like the bulldozing
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: or we're just throwing money at the problem because the
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: issue with like, just throwing at the money at the problem,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: which I feel like all of these guys have experienced
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: at one point or another is like, politicians will definitely
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: turncoat when it's politically advantageous for them. So, you know,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I think way back in the day when it was
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: like a, it was a thing politicians wanted to do
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: was to go to the Facebook headquarters, right? And sign
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: the wall and everybody was all in on it. And,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: you know, you fast forward.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: I had to cover a couple of politicians who did
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: that as if it was like- stopping at the Drake
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Diner in Des Moines. Yeah, yeah.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: And then you just kind of see how far this comes.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: So I think, you know, we're a little bit here.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: And look, once you're in a situation where you've become this, frankly,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: on both political sides, this punching bag and, you know,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: an example of, you know, the scariness of tech and
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: particularly AI gone wrong, it becomes really hard to kind
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: of crawl that back, particularly from a public standpoint.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I consider myself a progress voter, meaning I
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: always think we've got to be thinking, you know, we've
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: got to be prepared. You've got to always future proof
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: your economy, future proof your infrastructure, right? All of those things.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: I'm always a little leery of no's and full on
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: moratoriums and all this stuff. Sure. But I realize, I mean,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: I watch I've watched a couple of politicians try to
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: be sort of nuanced about this. I know the voters
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: have no interest in nuance. I mean, you know, Josh
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Shapiro suddenly looks like an extraordinarily weak potential presidential candidate
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: right now. And you're like, all he did was, you know,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: do something that the blue collar unions loved in Pennsylvania. Right. Right. Right.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: Which you would normally said was good politics.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Totally. Right.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. Right. Well, I think it's in
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: part because AI is becoming, well, this avatar for everything
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: that's unknown and scary.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: And, you know, politicians have started to leverage that and
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: use that as the resource. why, right. It's going to
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: be the explainer, right. For why we're having issues in
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: terms of jobs, in terms of economic mobility, right. Like
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: just our ability, um, you know, to, to, to use
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: our brains. So it's, You know, AI generally has become
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: this very kind of scary thing. And when you position
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: it that way, I think for an average voter, it's
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: very easy to understand, right? And so I think data
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: centers have become an extension of that. And this is
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: in part because, right, as we know, like with actual
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: elected leaders, the idea of thinking through AI and actually
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: actively regulating it is too hard. So, you know, so
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: it's like, it's, you know, like everything it's.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Good or bad. Can we just either, either it's great
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: or it sucks. Let's not talk about something that makes
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: it challenging and difficult. Yeah. Right.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: And, or how do we think about data centers in
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: a responsible way?
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: Cause to your point, it's like we go from either
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: fast tracking them or not at all.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, this to me feels like this is what
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: you need trusted presidential leadership Right.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: This is not good government.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: And you would want, you know, it's like in a
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: normal world, you'd have a president meeting with the National
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Governors Association. And that might be the topic of conversation.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: All right. We've got to figure out this data center business.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Do we public lands where, you know, how much public
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: land should we contribute to this process? What should communities,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: what should be the barriers? What should be this? Like
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: this would be what a responsible set of leaders would do. But.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: That's not the world we live in, you know?
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: No, instead to sort of bring it full circle in
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: terms of like, you know, the industrial complex of political consulting,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: you know, instead we've just got massive super PACs on
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: either side throwing obscene amounts of cash at candidates. And
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: you're kind of like, to what end? Because when they
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: get into, what are they really going to do anyway? So,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: but like, that's, but you know, that's where then the,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: that's where then from a political perspective, it feels like
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: the only place we sit anymore is is in which
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: side are you on and the money that it's going
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: to go into either supporting or opposing candidates that, frankly,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: it's unclear once they get into office exactly what they're
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: going to be doing anyway from a substantive perspective to
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: begin with. So to what end?
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Let me get you out of here on the first
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: ever conversation we ever had, I think, when you and
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I met about presidential politics back in 04 cycle, I think,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: going into the or 05 going into 08, thinking about
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: the 08 cycle.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: Which is what's going to happen In the Republican side
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: in the 28th cycle, is this going to be a
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: small field a la Democrats in 16 where there's this
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: kind of heir apparent candidate, but there'll be three or
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: four sort of ankle biters and maybe one of them
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: pops and it becomes something competitive? Or. A blue tsunami
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: happens this November and there is an explosion of Republicans
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: who decide the Trump era is over and now this
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: is a fight to see who's in charge of the
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: next era of Republican politics. What's your sense of what's
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: the most likely scenario of what 27 and early 28
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: looks like on the Republican side here?
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what I would like it to be.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: I would like it to be a fight for the
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: future of the Republican Party. And I would like to see.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: You know, a broad base of candidates who are having
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: that conversation and that there are candidates who get in
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: the race, you know, to have that conversation and force it.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Because I think it's what's needed for the party, you know,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: beyond 28, frankly. But that being said, I don't know
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: that that'll be the case because I'm not sure who
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: is going to be having that conversation. And, you know,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: even though You know, we kind of go through this because, look,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: I'm not convinced even if there is like a blue
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: tsunami in the midterms that that necessarily, you know, I
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: don't know, like the midterms are the midterms. We like
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: to ascribe a lot in terms of process. But I
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: don't know that that necessarily forces the Republican Party in
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: one direction because it hasn't so far. Right.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: And well, I can argue, though, that the 06 midterms
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: certainly sent the message that you needed to be far
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: away from Bush. Yes. In a different nomination. Right. And right.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: And the nomination of McCain, arguably. Yeah. Was as far
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: away as that Republican Party could have gotten from Bush
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: without leaving Bush. Right. Like that. You know. Yeah.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Well, and so I think so. I think how that
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: shows up or whether that happens is whether some of the,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: you know, technical hair appearance that are more that are
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: part of more of what we're going to call the
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Trump version of the party right now, whether that's a
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Rubio or a Vance. You know, do they do they
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: change how they operate and how they speak about the
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: party in the future because of that? Or do they
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: not because they're still, you know, in the overhang of,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: you know, a Trump Republican Party and still afraid or
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: concerned about what that means in terms of, you know,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: quote unquote, the MAGA base? And I think that's really
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: the issue.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: You know, it is.
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: Does Trump still have like a psychological hold over future candidates?
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: That they're afraid to, you know, get out from under.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: So like, what would you tell, let's say a, Brian
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Kemp came to you, says, look, I want to run
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: for president. I want to sort of, I'm not asking
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: to go back to the old Republican party. I'm, you know,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: I've got a good record to sell. I've, this is,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: you know, I've, I've won despite, you know, going against him.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: And I think swing voters will see me as a,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: you know, a conservative who isn't corrupt, I guess might
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: be the way I might put it. Is it worth
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: getting in if Vance is, you know, I mean, look,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: history is history. Stopping a sitting vice president from getting
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: a nomination, I think, is virtually impossible. I say virtually because,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, the. Donald Trump has taught me
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: never to assume anything is impossible. Right. Right.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: And look, I do believe campaigns exist for a reason.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: And they exist to see, you know, who ends up
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: being strong, who ends up being a weak candidate sometimes,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: you know, even if someone is sitting in office. It
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean they've been tested in the same way or
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: gone through the rigors of that type of campaign. And
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: I would say it depends, you know, look like you
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: obviously get in to try to win. But I would
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: also say you don't know having someone in who's bringing
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: a different perspective. How will that will shift the dynamic,
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: whether you're on the debate stages in the course of
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: the race overall? And how does someone like Vance respond
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: to that? I will say, I think all that being said,
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: I think. I would say I think the makeup of
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: the current Republican primary party makes all of this difficult.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: You know, at least I think in this current.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: The actual electorate. Right. It feels like that it's hard
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: to be a non-MAGA candidate and hope you're going to
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: actually win a primary. You can be competitive. Like, I
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: don't think this is going to be a blowout. Right.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: I think this is, you know, I don't. Well, how
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: many factions are in the Republican Party? Do you think
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: it's really two or do you think there is sort
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: of like. I mean, I have one theory, like I
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: think Rand Paul's an intriguing candidate. thorn in the side
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: of MAGA because he's credibly a critic of Trump on
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: two of his worst, on two of his most unpopular issues,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: tariffs and Iran. But nobody's going to mistaken him for
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: a bulwark resistance Republican, right? Like it's a, he's in
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: an intriguing spot. You know, Does that make it harder
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: for like a more what I might call a conventional
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: Republican like Brian Kemp to find to find traction that
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: that oddly, because that libertarian wing of the party, which
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: has always been a little bit different, you know, has
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: a following. And it's certainly a place to start with.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: But it does have a hard ceiling sometimes.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think I do think that's I
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: do think that's right. I think like the traditional version
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: of like, you know, kind of the race everybody ran
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: in 15 while Trump was like over here of like,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: let me talk about my record and the merits. Like,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: I don't think that breaks. I don't think that works
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't break through. So, you know, is your
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: differentiator like an attribute or is it one issue specifically?
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: That you're able to connect and tap into based on
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: where we are at that moment in time, like data centers.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: But like, is it, you know, what is it that
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: like then that resonates that gets you beyond the sort
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: of Trump overhang? And I think that's the interesting kind
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: of curious thing. It's like figuring out how you get
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: beyond that. And I don't think the traditional. That traditional
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: positioning of candidates works for that. And there's also a world, too,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: that depending on the makeup and looking at kind of
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: the state breakout, like, you know, does the turnout in
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: a Republican primary shift at all based on fatigue or,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of where like where Trump is at.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: That point in time? Is there a is is sort
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: of Trump fatigue kick in and you see a different
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: electorate in these primaries than we saw? You know, it's
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: funny hearing you just now. I actually, you know, if
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Rand Paul had a little more charisma, I'd be even
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: more intrigued by him. And I say this, no disrespect,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Rand doesn't know how to smile, right? He's never, I
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: don't think he's ever told a joke, right?
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: I'm half kidding.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: But you know what I mean? Like even off camera,
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: he's a little stiff. But, you know, J.D. Vance's connections
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: to Peter Thiel and this current anti-tech backlash that exists,
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: and we're seeing it with data centers. It's possible there's
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: more of a vulnerability here than maybe Republicans fully appreciate. Yeah.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: And also, what does, like, when you're the candidate, how
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: does that show up, right? Because I also think, and
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: how does he actually position himself?
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: Nobody believed Trump was bought off for whatever reason, even
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: though the man loves a good deal. Weirdly enough, you
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: and I both know this, voters always had this, well,
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: he can't be bought off. He just is already wealthy. Right.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: They won't believe Vance can't be bought off.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: Well, that and I also think there's an interesting thing
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: where like when we were talking about authenticity, I mean,
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: talking about authenticity, Trump's never not shown you who he is.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: He's always been consistent in that respect, like love him
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: or hate him, you know, getting sick of it or not.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: And I think Vance is is not that and has definitely.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: Evolved in a way. You know, if you want to
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: be generous, it's an evolution. If you want to write. cynical,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: it's transactional. Yeah.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: And so the real question is which version of Vance
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: shows up on the campaign trail? Because I would say
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: the version that tries to emulate Trump, I think it
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't come across the same way as a Trump delivers it.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: There's a little bit more of, again, this is like
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: delivery and sort of what makes Trump, Trump, but there's
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: a little more of like, he's funny. He there's like,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: can be a way that even when he's delivering the
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: biting thing, it just lands in a certain way where
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't think, again, I don't think it
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: works for Vance. I don't think it works for most
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: anyone who tries to emulate that.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: So is there a donor community that is just done
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: with the Trump wing that is willing to go out
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: there and, and fund a candidate like Brian Kemp to
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: sort of rid the party of this or no? Have
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: they all just gotten in line?
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Chuck. If our great hope is relying
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: on a brave, courageous donor, we're really in tough shape.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Saying it out loud was sort of ridiculous, wasn't it?
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: I was like, come on now. I know. I mean,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: I sit here and it's like, who's the one donor?
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: Paul Singer, right? Yeah. That everybody always says, oh, no,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: he's got an ethical line. Okay.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: He's always found his way to Trump at some point,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: It's, you know, so. So I haven't found, look, when
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: I find them, I'll let you know.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: What do you make of Mom Donnie's first year?
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Look, like, I think, I mean, look, immensely, immensely different. popular, um,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: in terms of his, um, you know, favor favorabilities in
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: the city. Um, I think, look, he's been really adept, um,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: certainly from public perspective. Uh, and he's, I think, been
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: able to tap into kind of the value behind the issues, right?
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: There's that he is able to connect because he speaks to,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: you know, the heart of it versus, you know, the fact,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: just the facts and figures. Um, look, he's had some missteps,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: but he's also, I think, um, navigated things, uh, issues
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: in a way that were not as, um, that people
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: were concerned about when he was on the campaign trail.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: I think he's been a little more, I think he's
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: actually been more nuanced from a, um, a governing perspective.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: And I think that shows up in, you know, he
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: just recently announced this, you know, business advisory council, which
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: is a really interesting mix of, of leaders across the
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: city and an industry, um, which I think was like
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: a smart, which was a smart move. And, and, um,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: And I think there's been other examples of that. So look,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: like I think it remains to be seen, you know,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: a year from now, how that actually shows up because
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: you have this grace period, right? You're in your first year.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: You have some run room, right? To address the issues,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: particularly on affordability.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: Like how many politicians have we seen who have acquired
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: a little bit of capital with their most important constituency
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: and have not used it, right? Like he seems to
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: like realize, look, I'm going to have these folks. let me,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: I've got a whole bunch of people, and the expectations
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: were low. So he didn't have to do, filling potholes
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: was enough to win over some of these voters, right?
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Right, and look, you saw him use it in the primary. Yeah,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: you saw him use it in the primary, and it's
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: exactly right. Like, you use it when you've got it,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: because it kind of just depreciates over time.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: Were you surprised that Jeffries and Schumer didn't get more
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: involved in getting Cuomo not to run? in the first place.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: I always thought the two of them should have been
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: held more accountable for their inability. They knew this was
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: probably a bad idea that Cuomo was going to lead
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: to an unusual situation in the primary, and it absolutely did.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: But they stayed out of it. And I, to this day,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: don't get how the two leaders of the National Democratic Party,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: who are both from Brooklyn, pretended they didn't know anything
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: about Andrew Cuomo not running a very good race.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's emblematic of the issue with the
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: democratic establishment, right? And I think the fact that in
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: New York, we got into New York City mayoral primary race.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: And the candidates who ran looked like the same candidates
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: who've run the last however many years. And our best
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: chance was, you know, a disgraced governor who resigned, who
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: was known to be, I mean, I certainly saw this
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: when I worked for him, you know, not a good
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: campaigner and had no actual foundational kind of fueled operation
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: or understanding of grassroots. So like, to me, it's not
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: surprising at all.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: No, and to me, it was obvious it was coming.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: And I just don't get like, How nobody how those
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: two in particular did just look the other way. I mean,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: I've always thought that the real beef that people should
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: have with them is there. It's not that Mamdani won.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: It's that Cuomo ran.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: If you're the head of the establishment, how did you
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: not speak up and say something?
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: Well, but also, how have you not been involved in
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: looking ahead in seating candidates?
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: To run in this race.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: There were other candidates that could have, you know, the sanitation,
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: what was it, Roxanne Garcia?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: Catherine Garcia.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Catherine Garcia.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: From the last time, yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: From the last time. Like, to me, like, you know,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: I think, I've always said this, I think the most
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: remarkable thing that's done in New York City is how
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: they take, I know garbage is hard and people get,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: but like, it's remarkable. And I think, hey, if you
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: can make sanitation work, I trust you with pretty much
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: everything else in the city. Like, I think what I would, would,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: would matter to me. I never got that. It was this,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: you know, whether they were spooked by the, the, the
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: rising progressives, I don't know, but it was, it was
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: such a strange.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: But I think, Yeah, but I think they have been. Yeah,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: but I think they have been, right? Like, I mean,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: I think I looked at it as an establishment that
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: has not organized in a way to put forward candidates
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: to think ahead, right? And it's not just in the
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: mayoral race, but we're even looking to down the line
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: in the Senate to city council races, the legislature, etc.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: And the DSA has been out organizing, you know, for
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: over a decade. And you can't just kind of you
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: can't just throw money or good after bad, like to
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: solve for that.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: And so to me, the looking the other way and
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: the fact that you actually had a lot of folks
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: in the city who did do that from a money perspective,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: from an industry perspective. just showed me that there is
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: an issue in the Democratic Party, quote unquote, establishment in
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: thinking ahead about what is the future of the party
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: and getting ahead of what you're and why the D.C.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: has been successful, particularly in New York and in the city,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: because what's the alternative? So that's true.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: They haven't offered. Yeah. You know, it's sort of like,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: why is Mom Donnie side winning? He's offering something and
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: the other side isn't. Yeah. Yeah. So like we go
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: back to what we said earlier, sometimes politics isn't that complicated.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. Good candidate, good message, more money or
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: not even more money.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: More money helps.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: It does.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: It does. Well, Maria, I look forward to see if
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: some presidential campaign talks you back into this mess. But
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: I have a feeling. What's your what's your appetite for
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: it in 28?
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, again, it's look, I still think there'll be.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: A third part, a legitimate independent or third party. I mean,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: I think it's tough. I'm a cycle away from believing
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: it's going to like I think one more failed presidency
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: like we've had three in a row. You know, I
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: think this is a failed, you know, failed Trump, failed Biden,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: failed this. If there's a fourth failed and it's like two,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: two and two on each side, then I think that
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: I think 32 is the next legitimate shot at that.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: I think you need money and you need a candidate
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: or you need a face of it who's driving a message, right?
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: And I think the message has to, there has to
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: be like a philosophy. I think the problem with some
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: of the third party efforts, they've been a little like
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: abstract and it's been about like, getting things done or
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: like bipartisanship. And that is not, as we know, is
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: like not a motivator.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: It doesn't sell. I know. I know. Everybody wants it.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Everybody says they want that in the focus group, but
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: nobody wants that on the bumper sticker. Yeah.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: So.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: Well, Maria, this was great. I enjoyed, look, you wrote
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: an op-ed that not every consultant would write. I don't,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: is that going to, it could have hurt your business actually.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, but again, that's all the points. Sometimes
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: we've got to, you know, put our money where our
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: mouth is and, and, and, you know, say the things
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: that we think are true. So, well, I don't have
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: candidates I can work for who do that anymore. So
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: I have to do it myself.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: Well, it was a good effort. I'm glad you did it.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: It was a good example to set. Thanks.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Good to talk to you too.