Latest / The Fourcast / Nadine Dorries on Tory sleaze and scandal and her church abuse

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Nadine Dorries on Tory sleaze and scandal and her church abuse · The Fourcast

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You're a woman who's got to the top of British policies.
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Looked it gone. It's it's utterly rotten.
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Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah.
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And it has to change. If it doesn't change, the
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Conservative Party has no chance of survival because I cannot
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believe in a million years that people who behave in this way.
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You are more interested in a hedonistic lifestyle in having
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group gay sex sessions in officers.
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If you look at any stage during the day at BBC parliament you
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will see empty green ventures in debates, but you won't see empty
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bars and you won't see empty officers. 2 particular officers
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where those group gay sexes. Do you think Boris Johnson ever
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had sex in a work environment? Hello and welcome to this
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special edition of The Political Forecast.
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I'm joined today by Nadine Doris, former Cabinet minister.
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And I'm A Celebrity contestant, also an author, once of fiction
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but now of something a lot stranger.
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In her latest book, she reveals a shocking, some say improbable
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account of life inside Westminster, a world of
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secretive cabals, political dark arts and sordid WhatsApp groups.
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Now, she's also been in the news this week because of a column
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she wrote largely in response to the Channel 4 News revelations
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around the Church of England, in which she talked about her own
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experience of abuse and her dealings with the Church of
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England as a result of that. And we'll be delving into some
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of that experience, too. Welcome.
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Now you say in this latest book, if Kenny Badenoch is elected as
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leader of the Conservative Party, you will have to decide
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whether you're still a conservative and whether it's a
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party worth fighting for. So are you still a conservative?
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Look, it's, you know, I, I remember in 2017 being very
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vocal about the fact that I could not understand how Labour
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MPs could campaign for Jeremy Corbyn and how they could stand
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for the Labour Party. And so it's, and for the first
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time really, I understand how they did because actually, I
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think what happens is your, your principles and your party
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actually come before the yeah, it actually plays a big part.
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So I face this question, you know, and it's, and I realise
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I'm, you know, I'm a conservative.
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Conservative principles run through my veins.
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But I mean, what you have described here is a very, very
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dark place. It's a party that's, well, I
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mean, it's not really a political party.
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You know, in your world, the Conservative Party is controlled
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by a very small number of unelected people, financed by
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mysterious sources in which political leaders are not really
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in charge of anything and elections don't really mean
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anything. I mean, how is that?
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Well, there's something else. Very interesting point actually.
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So can I just make 2 points in response to that?
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The first is that when I wrote the first book, the plot, that's
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that people were saying this Dougie Smith that she's written
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about, It's a figment of her imagination.
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There were MPs going out on camera on college greed saying
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he doesn't exist. I've never heard of him.
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And yet this Sunday just gone, you had Tim Shipman from The
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Sunday Times writing about Dougie Smith.
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There's a mainstream figure in the Conservative Party, Dougie
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Smith. Has long been known as a
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Conservative party. No, I mean he never had a no.
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Chris, you know, you know very well that a year ago when the
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plot came out, it was the mentioning of Dougie Smith.
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But I was ridiculed for for outing him.
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I'm glad to say he's now fully out and he's written about in
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mainstream media. But what we've just what you
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needed to be is the way you portray him as the mastermind,
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the Svengali, the sort of, you know, the the man who really
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controls everything. So.
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Why would you think? That why should you?
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Think ridiculed. No, I don't.
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I mean, but I'm saying your view is ridiculed by some
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conservatives. No, I don't think it's anymore.
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I don't think. Why explain?
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You know how you think? Well, describe the world first
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of all, because to anyone who hasn't read the books or the.
4:04
Collars. What?
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The conservative world. Just just describe, you know,
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what, what you would say is this world and how it's controlled
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because people think of it. As a world that's controlled,
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it's, it's very simple. There are a group of men,
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Dominic Cummings. You, you know well of Dominic
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Cummings, Dougie Smith, Michael Gove, who from a very early
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stage have been key players in how the Conservative Party
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operates. Now, you know, the members vote
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doesn't really count for anything because they voted for
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leaders successively. And if it isn't the right
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leader, that leader is removed. And one of the most interesting
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interviews, I think, happened was an interview between Laura
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Kuenssberg and Dominic Cummings in which he said in the
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interview very clearly, well, we knew we wanted Boris Johnson as
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Prime Minister, but we didn't want him to stay.
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We had to get him out. And he gave that.
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And she said to him, what? But he just been elected as
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Prime Minister. You mean within months?
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He said, no, not within months, within days.
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These people worked, have worked for they've been there since
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since for 23 years. Well, that's the question, you
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know, you will know I ask everybody I should just say
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these books, you know, are interviews with other people.
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So most of the words, 96% of the words are not mine.
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They're the they're the words of everybody from very senior
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couple of people you've. Spoken to, you know where does
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the power derive? From well, there are two.
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These this small group of people who said.
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Yeah. And there are two constant
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questions that I ask and have never received a an effective
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answer for. And that is how and why?
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How and why have they been allowed to create so much chaos
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over such a long period of time? No one has the one cabinet
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minister. That's why so many people don't
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believe it though, isn't it? Because it doesn't make any
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sense. Well, I don't think you're right
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in saying that anymore, Chris, because I've lived with the
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first book for a year and I know now that, you know, it was the
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most borrowed book in the House, the Commons, in the library.
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I know now that you know, MPs do believe it, they do understand
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it because most of the things, a lot of the scenarios explained
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in the book now makes sense to to a lot of people.
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And you know, so Dougie Smith is he engineered quite vocally the
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removal of Boris Johnson. He was behind the scenes until
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then removed Boris Johnson put in place Rishi Sunak, who is no
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long before Rishi Sunak became an MP.
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He's credited in the book with by a number of people you know,
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with having got Michael Gove his seat as well.
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He engineered for the removal of Rishi Sunak when Rishi Sunak
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didn't do what he wanted to do and they could see power
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slipping away and then engineered for the installation
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of chemi based on he's still there.
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He's still there. So just let me finish.
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He's still there in central office being paid a very
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handsome salary running the leader of the oppositions
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office. I mean, why does nobody get rid
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of him? So a number of party treasurers
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have over the years tried to get rid of him.
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And what happens is party treasurers come into CCHQ and
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they go through the books, successive new ones and they go
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who is this bloke? And he's get rid of him, why is
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he here? And then they receive a phone
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call from Michael Gove, a hair dryer treatment phone call.
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This has happened over successive years, telling them
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that he will not go and he will stay and he will remain.
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There who's? Michael Gove, well he was very
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close to Dave. This has joined David Cameron's
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years and as you know, you know, they were very close.
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They holidayed together. He was very much part of the
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team Cameron until he stabbed Cameron in the back.
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He was very much a part. And this is something successive
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that he did and. He's still there now, you know,
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so why why would why, why was why was, you know, Liz Truss not
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able to get rid of. Him she tried to get rid of.
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Him, but ultimately he's. She didn't, yeah.
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No, she because she didn't last long enough, Chris.
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She was only there 49 days and she was told by the lawyers that
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she would have to go through. And because he'd been there so
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many years, a legal process to remove him.
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His past was removed to number 10, but he was still there on
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the payroll. And the first thing Rishi Sunak
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did when he became Prime Minister was reinstate Dougie
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Smith's past. Let me tell you a story.
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The day Rishi Sunak became Prime Minister and aide was standing
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next to Boris Johnson, and Boris Johnson sent a message to Rishi
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Sunag asking Rishi Sunag to be kind to those MPs who'd worked
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hard and were loyal to the party.
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And within seconds a reply came back onto the AIDS phone from
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Dougie Smith. I'm not going to say what that
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reply said, but Boris Johnson sent to Rishi Sunag, Dougie
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Smith sent back to the aid in less than a minute.
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Couldn't that have been a coincidence?
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No, it was in response to that text message.
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It was a direct response to the message Boris Johnson sent to
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Rishi Sunak. And what do you think that
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proves? Well, that, Boris, that Dougie
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Smith was right at the heart of what was happening the day Rishi
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Sunak became Prime Minister. I mean, obviously Dougie Smith
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has kept an incredibly low profile.
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He never comments on any of this stuff, and you've been talking
9:00
about it for months. And he never defends himself.
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He never gives his version of the story.
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So we don't honestly know what's the truth is.
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Well, I think I've spoken, the number of people I've spoken to.
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I think it would be bizarre if given the calibre of people I've
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spoken to, both inside #10IN cabinet, across the party, at
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the top of CCHQ, from top donors down.
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I think it would be bizarre given the number of people I've
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spoken to, if what was in the book wasn't true.
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And also there is the legal aspect of this.
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So not only does my book have to go through a filter in Harper
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Collins, but because of the the nature of the material that's in
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there, it also has to go up to external media barristers.
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I can promise you that every word in that book is true.
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So so so then the question is, why are you still wedded to
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this? Because I this institution.
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Because this institution, as you describe it, is corrupt.
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I say it's people say it's corrupt.
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You know is is, you know has has base instincts.
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You know it's selfish. It has got nothing to do with
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public service. So why aren't you a conservative
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then? If that's what it is, because I
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believe in conservative principles of freedom and and
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many other points of of conservatism that I believe in.
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But what I'm hoping isn't there. Another is what I'm hoping is
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that Kemi Bantanok will kind of like cut the ship free from Gove
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and Cummings and Dougie Smith. By the way, the three of them
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are 30 year old friends, very close, very close that she will
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cut the almost indivisible, you know, between us as individuals.
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I'm hoping she will cut the Conservative Party ship free
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from those individuals. Find the strength within herself
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and the confidence to to run the Conservative Party as a leader
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with confidence and to take it forward.
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That's what I'm hoping. That's what I'm pinning my hopes
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at the moment is that that Kemi can turn her back on them and
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and understand that she has both the the ability even though you.
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Say they they helped create her. So, you know, they've been
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friends with Kemi people. Who then they use?
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People they and and. Then they turn on them.
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They use. Malleable people that they can,
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they can fashion now. So why would she turn on?
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The people who helped put her in place, they've.
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Known Kemi since long before she was in and and she's she's been
11:21
a long time. When I first started writing the
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plot 2 1/2 years ago, but made it very clear in the plot that
11:27
actually Cami was going to be the next leader of the
11:29
Conservative Party. That was very obvious because
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she was very obviously I'd had so much information that she was
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the next protege. I predicted this 2 1/2 years ago
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when people were still saying who is Cami Badenoch?
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I I knew 2 1/2 years ago she was the next she was the plot.
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She was the next person after Ishi.
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They always have one in reserve, so they always have one-on-one
11:48
in reserve. So she's been in training on
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time. You you have.
11:50
Some sort of hope that she will. She will cut the cord.
11:54
So, like she hates me for saying all this.
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You know, she doesn't like it. She says I'm my own person.
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I'm not controlled by anybody. It's just not true.
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You know, she has been. But I'm hoping now, because my
12:05
position now honouring the members vote, being a
12:07
Conservative, is to from this point of, you know, the book
12:11
coming out will be to, to, to loyally back Cammy in the same
12:15
way Labour MPs loyally, in fact, Corbyn, Yeah, I, you won't hear
12:19
me again unless she does something absolutely
12:22
catastrophically wrong or something very odd happens.
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You know, she has my support from now on.
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I want her to succeed. I want, I don't want reform to
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be the next government. I want Kemi to succeed.
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So you don't. Want Boris back anymore?
12:35
Boris doesn't. Want to come back?
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Boris doesn't want to come back. You know, it's interesting, one
12:40
of the reasons why Nigel Farage is filling the political stage
12:42
at the moment is because Boris Johnson has left it, but he
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doesn't want to come back. Why?
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I think it's that's a slightly. Different question.
12:48
I mean, whether he wants to, but I mean you, you were always
12:50
clear that you wanted him back. I think you thought it was Oh,
12:53
I. I think, I think if Boris
12:55
Johnson were to come back tomorrow into a winnable seat
12:57
and he was to be elected to lead to the Conservative Party, that
12:59
it would be guaranteed that this Labour government would be
13:01
serving one term. And and Labour know that too.
13:05
But I think his time as Prime Minister was possibly one of the
13:08
most miserable times of his life.
13:09
And I don't he's earning huge amounts of money.
13:12
He's doing a great deal of work with Ukraine.
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He's living his best life with his wife and his young children.
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I don't think, I don't think you could.
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I think wild horses could drag him back.
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You see, I. Mean, I, you know, we, we spent
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election night together here. And then I spent election night
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with Boris Johnson in America. And, and my sort of my take on
13:34
him was very much sort of he was looking at Trump and thinking,
13:38
well, if Trump can come back after everything that he's been
13:41
accused of, nothing I've been accused of is remotely as bad as
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that, I can come back too. And that and that and his whole
13:48
analysis of why the Conservative Party has gone wrong is because
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they got rid of him, you know, and that's mine and that's your
13:54
analysis. So that's not just.
13:56
Mine and Boris's analysis, that's a lot of people.
13:58
'S analysis. So, so I mean, I I'm not sure I
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believe that he doesn't want to come back.
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He may not want to come back now.
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No. Well, I can't predict what he'll
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want to do in a year or two from now, but he definitely doesn't
14:10
want to come back now. No, exactly.
14:11
Well, I mean, the point is you come back after a couple of
14:13
years of Kemi Badenoch. Who knows?
14:16
I just, you know, you can't even look a week ahead, isn't that?
14:18
Really. The plan?
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You can't. Look, a week ahead, not two
14:20
years ahead, you know, but that's what.
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You'd like to see, isn't it? No, I.
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I just, I don't know because I'm not sure.
14:26
It's, it's quite complex in terms of the make up of the
14:29
Conservative MPs. There are a lot of MPs in
14:32
Westminster right now who worked very hard to remove Boris
14:35
Johnson. Conservative MPs, are they, are
14:38
they ever? Do you know any MP?
14:40
Whoever says I got that completely wrong, you don't.
14:44
So I just can't see a scenario whereby Conservative Party right
14:49
now as it stands with those 121 MPs says I got that so wrong.
14:55
We actually I want to keep my seat next time I need Boris
14:57
Johnson back. I just don't see it happening.
14:59
I. Mean, I know you're doing this
15:01
sort of like I will be loyal to Kemi, but I mean, it's not
15:06
honestly very convincing, you know, look.
15:10
You've put a hypothetical scenario to me.
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So let's let me talk about a hypothetical scenario to try and
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to try and answer your question. So say 2 years from now, we are,
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I don't know, reform a polling way better than we are.
15:26
Say we're looking at, if an election was held two years
15:31
today, we'd be looking at losing 60 MPs and down to say 50 MPs
15:37
returning, which quite easily could have happened this time.
15:40
So say we're looking at that. So just put yourself inside the
15:45
head of MPs and say polls are coming out saying if Boris
15:50
Johnson was leading the Conservative Party, this is how
15:53
it'd look. There'd be 350 Conservative MPs.
15:57
What would you expect MPs to do? Would they say, well, look, you
16:01
know, we've got to say we got it wrong, let's go and get Boris
16:04
back. I think they probably will
16:06
because they'll want to save their own skins and save the
16:08
party. I think that will probably
16:09
happen. But the question is, would he
16:12
come back? I don't know what the answer to
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that is. I mean, I think we probably do.
16:16
I know. You think he will because he
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spoke. About Cincinnatus and the.
16:21
Plan the guy. Coming back and all that, and
16:23
you mentioned that in your pastel of Easter maybe.
16:25
Yeah, you. Know, I mean, there are enough
16:26
reasons out there. The fact that he doesn't go
16:28
away, the fact that he comes on Channel 4 on election night is
16:31
enough to tell you you know this.
16:32
Man, this man. Has not left the political stage
16:36
and he still wants to matter and so that's why people kind of
16:39
yeah, I'll. Give you that it's.
16:40
You know, politics. Is in his.
16:42
It's all. Guesswork ultimately.
16:43
I mean, The thing is the scenario you put is not
16:47
unlikely, but a lot of Conservative MPs at the moment
16:51
are feeling quite buoyant because they think they.
16:54
Are because Labour are doing so badly.
16:56
And so they think it's all gonna land in their lap.
16:58
I just I. Mean explain why you think.
16:59
They're wrong. I've been saying that like after
17:02
interview after interview. I think the worst thing that
17:05
could have happened for the Conservative Party is for Labour
17:06
to fail as badly as it is. You know, Labour have upset so
17:09
many voter groups who will never forgive them for what they've
17:12
done, whether it's farmers or whether it's pensioners or
17:15
whether it's small businesses. They just whether it's doctors,
17:18
GP surgeries, whatever it is, they will not forget.
17:20
OK, they've made a few people happy like hospital doctors and
17:23
and others, but there's a lot of people they've had too many
17:26
people too fast and too hard to recover.
17:29
And I think we can both probably say that's a difficult scenario
17:33
for them to be in even longer term.
17:35
I think it's very likely this is just a one time government.
17:38
What this? Struck me as is someone who has
17:41
been in politics and left and very much left and kind of now
17:45
looks at it almost with disgust. Who?
17:49
You. Oh.
17:53
So I I've got to say, I have to say when I first started writing
17:56
the plot, I did not expect in a million years I was going to
17:59
learn the things that I did. And I thought with that I didn't
18:02
want to write down for this is the.
18:03
Sexual stuff you're talking about?
18:05
Yeah, the sexual. Stuff in No No in the plot, the
18:07
stuff I uncovered week after week about how Boris Johnson was
18:12
brought down. I just didn't even believe
18:14
myself what I was being told to. Hear how that turned you off?
18:16
Politics is my point. Hasn't.
18:18
Turned it made you think. God this is a ghastly game.
18:21
Honestly, I just feel like the merry White House of politics at
18:23
the moment. The stuff I was told for
18:24
downfall did shock me. It did shock me and and politics
18:30
needs to clean it's act up. Politicians need to clean their
18:33
act up. Why?
18:34
Are you so shocked by gay sex in Westminster 'cause it's.
18:38
A bloody office. It's a place where would you?
18:41
Would you be shocked if grey if gay?
18:44
I can't believe people asked me this question.
18:46
Would you be shocked if you discovered that there was a
18:48
WhatsApp thread in your company that organised group gay sex
18:52
sessions in offices but hasn't? Straight sex been going on in
18:55
offices since time they were more I don't.
18:57
Think it was organised in a group sex session in a on a
19:00
WhatsApp thread called right now.
19:02
Well. That's just modern technology.
19:03
But I mean, what I mean is the sort of there's, there's no.
19:06
No, you people didn't be something in the.
19:08
Office for as long as this. Isn't just we've ever talked
19:11
about this isn't just sex, sex. Sex at work and and what you've
19:14
revealed is, is some WhatsApp groups in apparently in which
19:18
gay MPs and some straight MPs get together and have casual sex
19:22
in Westminster. Into office, that is.
19:23
Shocking. There's no doubt about it, but I
19:26
think. Most of your audience listening
19:27
to this might think that's a bit of out of order.
19:29
And don't try and paint me as being somebody as a being
19:32
against gay sex. No, no, I'm not.
19:33
I'm not, no. What I'm saying is like, it's
19:35
sort of. It's like it's the.
19:36
Biggest privilege. It's the biggest privilege in
19:39
the land to be elected and sent to Westminster.
19:43
If you look at any stage during the day of BBC Parliament, you
19:47
will see empty green benches in debates, but you won't see empty
19:50
bars and you won't see empty officers. 2 particular officers.
19:54
Where those group case do you think?
19:56
Boris Johnson ever had sex in a work environment?
20:01
No, I don't. You don't.
20:03
No, actually, no, I don't. I don't because I think the one
20:07
thing that you would not admit but you know and I know is that
20:12
he's what he does outside of work.
20:14
I don't, you know, but but you and I both know he's quite shy
20:19
and he's not a small talker and he's quite socially awkward in
20:24
those. So now I don't see him as being
20:25
somebody doing that in a workplace.
20:27
No, right? That's interesting, but I mean,
20:30
So what, what, Why, So what, why, why does that sort of
20:34
really get you though in a way that's I think.
20:37
It's the other. Behaviour.
20:38
Don't you know it does? Hasn't pushed you in yet?
20:40
No all of. It does, you know.
20:41
This is like the last straw. Isn't it No.
20:44
Oh, come on. It's one small chapter in a in
20:46
a, in 100,000 words. So it's I know a lot has been
20:49
made about it and made of it. But when I'm sent photographs on
20:53
a but. When I said, you know, yeah.
20:55
When I'm sent photographs on a 30 second timer from somebody
20:59
from a staff member that shows an MP stood in an office naked
21:04
with an erection in his hand, with another MP lounging back on
21:07
the the green sofa behind him with the London Eye going round
21:11
in the background through the window.
21:13
It was pretty shocking. Yeah, it was pretty shocking.
21:17
Even for a former nurse, yeah. And I did say I'm a woman of the
21:20
world. I'm a former nurse.
21:21
This isn't going to shock me. It did.
21:24
Right. So.
21:24
So you're a woman who's got to the top of British politics,
21:28
looked in and God, Oh my God, it's, it's utterly rotten.
21:31
Yeah, in there. Yeah, I have.
21:33
Yeah. And it has to change.
21:34
And I'll tell you if it doesn't change, if it doesn't change,
21:37
the Conservative Party has no chance of survival because I
21:40
cannot believe in a million years.
21:42
But people you have who behave in this way, who are more
21:46
interested in a hedonistic lifestyle and drinking cheap
21:49
booze in bars, in having group gay sex sessions in officers, I
21:54
can't believe that that group of people have the ability within
21:58
them to perform in a way which enables the Conservative Party
22:02
to survive the onslaught which reform is going to present to
22:05
them. And the Liberal Democrats.
22:07
They just don't have it and do you.
22:08
Think that behaviour basically sort of defines who they are,
22:11
which is what you sort of described.
22:14
Or is it just a little? You know?
22:15
No. No, no, no spare.
22:16
Time, you know? No.
22:17
So the, the, you know, 2 1/2 years researching these books,
22:21
it's the, you know, I know more than I want to know.
22:24
And it's, it's a group of MPs. We saw the, and it's interesting
22:28
'cause somebody actually said this somewhere this morning.
22:30
You saw the deterioration in MPs behaviour in 2016 over Brexit,
22:37
You saw the erosion of what was normally, you know, respect,
22:42
collegiate kind of like atmosphere MPs had, you know, in
22:46
working together, even across. Years before that, in people's
22:49
minds, we also had MPs expenses, which, yeah.
22:52
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, that was.
22:54
Down in public. In comparison, there was, Yeah.
22:57
And money's always been, you know, so, so when?
22:59
You look back at your time in politics.
23:02
Do you? Do you ever think I could have
23:06
been better or that I did? All the time.
23:09
Yeah. Well, that I did.
23:09
Things that I now regret. Oh.
23:11
God, yeah, yeah. I've just had to chat with a new
23:13
MP this morning. Actually.
23:14
He was saying something to me and I just put my hand on his
23:17
arm and said you could be somebody one day.
23:20
You could be a cabinet minister one day, you could even be a
23:23
Prime Minister one day. The way the conversation you
23:26
just had with me don't have it with anybody else ever again.
23:29
Don't talk like that ever again because it will prevent you from
23:33
becoming the person you have the potential to be.
23:37
And it's, and I, the problem is that, you know, young MPs come
23:40
into Westminster and they don't know how it works.
23:42
They don't know how to behave when they get there.
23:45
And it's, it's, yeah, I look back on things that I've done
23:48
and think, I wish I hadn't done that.
23:51
Oh, just wish I hadn't. And.
23:53
But, you know, I've enjoyed my time.
23:55
I mean, did. Did.
23:56
You get too caught up in the tribalism, no?
23:59
No. So isn't it interesting?
24:00
Because so journalists say to me, one said to me yesterday,
24:05
your loyalty took you to the point of being ridiculous.
24:08
And another journalist said to me last night, you're not loyal
24:11
at all to your party, are you? Do you regret being disloyal or
24:14
something? I'm just like, I can't win, you
24:15
know, on, on either. It depends who's looking at what
24:18
I do. I just can't.
24:18
But those two things. Can be true though, can't they
24:20
'cause I mean they can both be. True.
24:20
At the same time, yeah, 'cause you know I.
24:22
Mean what people need to call. David Cameron and George
24:24
Osborne, the party boys. You know, you would defend Boris
24:26
Johnson pretty much anything, and that's what.
24:29
People, No. I've said, you know, if he
24:30
kicked a dog, I wouldn't defend him, no.
24:32
But what he did do was bad enough and you defended him all
24:35
the way, no? It wasn't well, so let's not go
24:37
down there. No, I must be all argue there.
24:38
I mean like. You, you, you will always argue,
24:40
you will always defend him on that.
24:42
And and that's why I think people kind of wonder or I
24:46
wonder, you know, do you ever think why is it that when when
24:51
you're looking at all these other politicians, you are, you
24:55
are quick to condemn them because of certain behaviour?
25:00
But with with him, you know, you, you would, it seems,
25:04
forgive any any sort of no, it's not true you.
25:07
Know that's not true. So you know, I have two two
25:09
issues really. One is there are two aspects to
25:11
my personality which I think play into that.
25:13
One is that I'm ADHD absolutely to the end of the the NTH
25:18
letter. I have daughter who's trying to
25:20
psychotherapy, who's told me this and and apparently she
25:23
informs me that we have a an instant and almost it hampers us
25:30
ability to perceive other people's personalities, not
25:34
loyalty to other people. The other is that I'm a
25:36
northerner and those two things combined can be a disadvantage
25:39
when you're assessing other people.
25:42
And you know, I knew from the day I met.
25:44
Why is it? I'm a northerner.
25:45
What what's being a Northerner got into?
25:47
This well, maybe it's just been a Scouser there, but I just, I
25:49
was born in Liverpool actually. But oh, were you?
25:52
Yeah. So what's that got to do with
25:54
assessing people? I just think it does.
25:56
I just think it's a northern trait.
25:58
What what that you're good at it or bad at it?
26:00
I think we're. Good at it, Yeah.
26:01
I think people, Northerners are good at sussing people out quite
26:04
quickly. Maybe it's 'cause we have to
26:06
survive on our feet and you know, and if you've been brought
26:09
up the streets that I was brought up in, you need to be
26:11
pretty. But that doesn't.
26:12
Explain to me why, Why you know you you were you know you were
26:15
absolutely yes, I. Don't know where you're going
26:17
with this questioning it seems to be fixated on Boris Johnson's
26:21
best friend. Yeah, no, I'm not his best
26:22
friend. I'm sure he's got a lot of best
26:23
friends. Well, you would.
26:24
Do you would You would be the one who would go out and defend
26:26
him when nobody else would? And and yet when you look at it
26:31
seems everybody else in politics and the Conservative Party, you
26:34
have assessed them here and gone.
26:35
They're all ghastly, they're all terrible.
26:37
No, not. All there are some very good
26:39
that well, there are some very good people.
26:43
You do seem to be quite fixated on my relationship with Boris
26:46
Johnson. It's I have other political
26:48
friends. He's the one who?
26:49
You want to see back? He's the one you think is great,
26:51
and I know. He's the one everybody's
26:52
obsessed with. But, you know, I do.
26:54
There are a lot of people in the Conservative Party.
26:57
They're very good people, you know, Very.
26:59
There are still good people in the Conservative Party, but
27:01
they're diminishing in number. Can I change the subject to what
27:04
you've also been talking about this week, which is the Church
27:08
of England? Now, obviously, this is a story
27:11
that largely came out of Channel 4 News reporting in 2017, which
27:16
has now led to the resignation of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
27:19
And you wrote a furious article in the mail talking about your
27:24
own experience with the church and talking about childhood
27:30
abuse. I mean, what's it been like
27:34
revealing that, given it's been something you have kept secret
27:40
for so long? So I wrote a a trilogy of books
27:43
and by the time it was a cathartic process for me and by
27:47
the time I got to the third book, I think I just felt
27:50
confident enough to write his name.
27:53
And a journalist still was reviewing the book, read it and
27:57
undertook some research and contact.
27:59
And I've been asked the question, is this you, this
28:02
person? Her words were that the the
28:05
scenes of child abuse are so graphic.
28:07
I don't believe that they can be.
28:08
You cannot have experienced them.
28:10
And she researched and said this name that you've mentioned is
28:14
actually somebody who's a Church of England vicar in a church
28:17
where you lived and kind of like in a way outed me.
28:22
She's very smart. And she did some research and
28:25
discovered that he died. And that became, that was a bit
28:29
of a story at the time. I I did go to see 3 as a result
28:35
of that, 3 bishops from the Church of England in the House
28:39
of Lords. And now they, they treated me
28:42
like I was some kind of contagion.
28:44
They sat in a room with me 12 feet away from them.
28:47
I was sat down the bottom. They sat near the door.
28:49
And I couldn't actually explain in detail what had happened.
28:54
And they went away and they promised me they would look into
28:57
it and they report back to me and they didn't.
29:01
And I just let go. Really.
29:03
I just didn't. It's not something I like
29:06
talking about because it just takes me to, it makes me feel
29:09
crap, frankly. It just makes me feel horrible
29:12
and I don't like talking about it.
29:14
But what I did was just let it go and I think that was probably
29:20
something that was a mistake. I should have been a bit braver,
29:22
I should have been a bit stronger because there are
29:24
people who are struggling and I had a profile and I probably
29:28
should have been. If there was anything I should
29:31
have campaigned on as an MP, it should have been that.
29:34
But I would have received a lot of opposition.
29:35
It would have been very difficult.
29:37
And it was only when I read about the abuse and this John
29:42
Smythe and what those, it was actually just reading what those
29:46
young boys had suffered that just the red mist came down.
29:52
And I wrote my column on it last week, which wasn't a smart thing
29:55
to do in the week that my book was coming out, frankly, because
29:59
the week should all be about downfall.
30:01
And I wrote it. And I think I just, I'd been
30:05
kind of like seething for about a week over it.
30:07
And one of the things that really, really upset me was the
30:12
fact that the person who abused me went to Leeds, bragged about
30:18
knowing Jimmy Savile. Then everybody in my council
30:21
estate was told, oh, he's emigrated to America.
30:23
He was, it hadn't he'd been taken into the church, some kind
30:26
of retraining. And then he was farmed out to a
30:29
rural Norfolk parish where he had a dozen elderly
30:33
constituents, you know, once a month popping in.
30:36
And that was exactly what they did with John Smythe.
30:38
They did exactly the same thing. They contacted the Palace when
30:42
it came out in the story and they sent these 3 bishops to see
30:45
me. And that's what they do.
30:47
Some of those serving bishops now, yeah.
30:49
Welby doesn't speak to anybody. He does.
30:51
They don't have a formal process.
30:54
They don't have a way of dealing with these.
30:55
They can like, farm it out sideways and shut it down, and
30:58
that's what they did with me. And and if they are serving
31:03
bishops, do you think they should all resign?
31:06
I do. And So what I'm doing is my own
31:09
little verification check. We're going back to our 2015
31:12
emails. We're getting hold of them
31:13
through because I'm not an MP anymore.
31:15
So I, we have to go through and get hold of those emails from
31:18
2015 and because I want to make sure double check I've got the
31:22
names right because it would be very wrong of me to say the
31:25
three names and they'd be wrong. So I want to double check that
31:28
I've got the names right. If any of those names are
31:31
thinking of standing to replace Justin Welby, then you know,
31:35
once I know who they were, I will out them.
31:37
And can I just say Bishop Helen of Newcastle is doing an amazing
31:42
job. She is has taken a woman to be
31:45
brave enough and to challenge the institution of the Church of
31:48
England and the historical child sexual abuse and physical abuse.
31:52
Because I'm quite sure that abuse meted out on those boys
31:55
had a home erotic nature to it. And in terms of how it was
31:59
carried out and the reasons why he behaved in that way and beat
32:02
those boys so viciously, she's the first person to challenge
32:07
what has happened and the systems and processes that the
32:09
church use. And, and, you know, thank
32:13
goodness she's doing that. And she's called for the those
32:16
bishops named in the Macon report to resign.
32:19
And I think they should do and. And do you know, I mean you, you
32:23
presume you weren't a sort of a one off in your in your that's.
32:28
Why it was really No, there must be.
32:30
Loads and loads and loads of cases, not just from your I.
32:32
Only saw one girl, so I only saw one in the front seat of his
32:36
car. I only saw one but.
32:38
What I mean is, I mean, that's just your.
32:40
That's one vicar from one period of time.
32:44
Yeah. I mean that the scale of this
32:47
kind of abuse in the Church of England must be enormous, Wasn't
32:51
it I? I think so.
32:53
And so you see, the Catholic Church went through its own.
32:58
Interestingly, I would feel more comfortable in the Catholic
33:00
Church today than I would never Church in England church.
33:02
But it's just the Catholic Church has been through its own,
33:06
you know, half my family are Irish, they're from Mayo on the
33:08
West Coast of Ireland. And they've been through this
33:11
process of, of the shame and the upset of what was going on
33:18
within that. I mean, it was massive within
33:19
the Catholic Church. They've been through that
33:22
process and and I think it's just beginning for the Church of
33:25
England now. The Anglican hierarchy has
33:29
fought this, it's resisted it. I think it's done it for
33:31
financial reasons. I think it's, you know,
33:33
protected its own coffers and that's because it didn't want to
33:36
have to pay out compensation to victims.
33:39
I think that's why it's done it. Do you?
33:40
Do you? Think it should still be the
33:42
established church? Should there still be this link
33:44
of church and state? Oh, I I.
33:46
Don't know that's that's quite a complex and constitutional
33:49
discussion question and I don't know the answer to that.
33:53
There needs to be a kind of root and branch reform.
33:57
They need to find compassion. They need to to find a way of
34:03
installing processes within. And you know, there is a kind
34:07
of, it's institutional, you know, it's like abuse happens in
34:11
institutions. We know abuse happens in
34:14
Westminster both with young men and young women.
34:16
We've heard enough and know enough about the, you know, the
34:19
complaints process that needs to be set up to know that abuse
34:21
happens in institutions and that it's whether it's the Church of
34:26
England or whether it's the, the Westminster, because it just
34:30
doesn't happen in the Conservative Party.
34:32
We know that whether it's in Westminster, whether it's in the
34:35
Catholic Church, where there are in the BBC, where there are
34:39
institutions, there seems to be cultures that develop and they
34:43
grow up and and they don't get challenged effectively when it
34:47
comes to light. And this is part of the problem.
34:49
That was, it was quite apparent in the BBC.
34:51
Well, that's why. Isn't it about power?
34:53
And that's why I'm sort of saying that we need to sort of
34:55
challenge the power structures. I mean bishops, you know the.
34:57
Hierarchy where you've got a hierarchy in the House of Lords
35:00
where you have a hierarchy and deference when you have when you
35:03
have celebrities and gods and you know, BBC hierarchy and when
35:07
you have it in the Church of England, the deference
35:09
congregations and and you know, priests where you have those
35:13
situations, you have abuse. Well, that's why I'm saying, do
35:16
you think the power needs to be taken away?
35:18
You know, should Should bishops be kicked out of the Lords?
35:22
So I so I yeah, I think they should, you know, I haven't been
35:26
asked that question. I haven't thought that through.
35:27
But I think instinctively, yeah, possibly.
35:30
Are you? Confident that any of these
35:33
institutions are going to be tackled.
35:37
Well, the Catholic Church tackled its own issues and there
35:43
particularly in terms of their safeguarding.
35:45
So they've tackled it. Can the Church of England, we'll
35:52
wait and see. I don't know.
35:52
I can't, I can't, I don't know enough about the structures
35:55
within the, the Church of England hierarchy to be able to
35:59
say that. But I know there's one brave
36:00
woman, a Bishop Helen, who's out there and at the moment, thank
36:04
God she is. And I feel as though I look at
36:06
her and think how weak was I? Because really, So just letting
36:11
it go. I said I'm going to my
36:12
consultant solicitor, I think maybe I need to challenge the
36:15
church and take my case to the church and see how far I can get
36:19
with it so that other people can see what happens because I am
36:24
probably one of the only high profile figures who's spoken out
36:26
about abuse in the Church of England.
36:28
But I was too weak, I was too cowardly.
36:30
I just let it go and from 2015 I shouldn't have done.
36:34
And I do feel a responsibility that maybe I'll let a lot of
36:36
people down by doing that, that I could have been a voice and
36:39
advocate for change and I wasn't.
36:41
And. And how confident are you about
36:42
the Conservative Party being able to?
36:45
Rescue yourself on the shoulders of the new MPs who've come in
36:49
now. And it's it's, it's their
36:51
responsibility to take it to a better place, a more moral
36:54
place, to a place of work, to a place where they are interested
36:59
in politics and policy and the lives of ordinary people.
37:03
And not in, you know, the price of a pint in a Westminster bar
37:06
and who they can have sex with. It's now on.
37:08
It's now the responsibility and which which which leader,
37:12
absolutely which leader they can remove next or which power
37:15
struggle they can get involved into next.
37:17
For too many it's all about the game.
37:19
You know, one minister said to me, she said this about Michael
37:23
Gove, she said it's just all a game.
37:29
And I wonder with Michael Gove what the end game is.
37:33
And somebody else said to me in a different conversation, The
37:38
thing is, there is no end game. It is just the game.
37:42
And that's what has to change. Nadine.
37:44
Doris, thank you very much indeed for your time.
37:46
You're welcome. Thank you.
37:47
That's it for this edition of The Political Forecast.
37:49
And next time, bye. Bye.