Latest / Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt / CI to Eye | Choreographing Change with Data

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CI to Eye | Choreographing Change with Data · Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt

0:01
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Hello everyone! Dan here. As full-blown data nerds here at CI,
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we believe you can't change what you do not measure.
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So we sat down with the team at Dance Data Project,
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an organization that promotes gender equity in the dance industry with
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metrics-based analysis. Through their research, programming,
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and advocacy,
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DDP showcases and uplifts women across the dance industry-from artistic and
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executive leaders, to lighting designers and commissioned composers.
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In this episode,
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their team illuminates the latest industry stats and shares observations that
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can help us carve a path forward for gender equity in dance.
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And if you are as numbers-obsessed as we are,
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you'll want to turn up the volume for this one. Let's dive in, shall we?
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So today I'm joined by three team members from Dance Data Project,
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an organization dedicated to promoting gender equity in the dance world.
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And they speak our love language, which is data.
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Thank you all so much for being here.
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Thank you so much for having us.
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So before we get started,
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let's just do a quick round robin and introduce ourselves so the listeners get
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to know your voices. If you could introduce your name, your role at DDP,
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and maybe what interests you in dance-what got you into dance in the first
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place?
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I'm Liza Yntema. I am the President and Founder of Dance Data Project.
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I started dancing around my kitchen at three and
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my mom, who quite unusually for the time, had a full-time job,
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I think just wanted to park me someplace. I was a ball of energy,
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so they started me on dance classes,
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which I continued until I was about 13.
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But I've never lost the love for performing arts generally,
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and dance in particular.
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Hi, I'm Isabelle Ramey.
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I'm the Chief External Affairs Officer for Dance Data Project.
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I've been with the company for almost three years now and I've been dancing
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since I was in the womb.
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My mom talks about having to leave concerts because I was kicking so much and I
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really never stopped. I am a professional ballet dancer right now.
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I went to college for dance and mathematics and it's a part of my identity.
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Hi, I'm Jenna Magrath. I am the Research Lead for Dance Data Project.
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I also have been dancing my whole life,
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from four years old up until now.
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And I'm currently a contemporary dancer with a small company located in northern
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British Columbia, Canada.
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Amazing. So dance has always been with you all.
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We have a lot of podcast listeners who work for dance companies,
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but there are also plenty who work in other artistic genres.
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So just to set the scene,
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what is unique about gender equity conversations in dance?
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Yeah,
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so about 75 to 85% of the dance workforce is
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made up of women.
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But once you start to look at the leadership roles and choreographers,
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there are significantly more men in these positions than women. There are many,
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many,
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many women who are eager and well-equipped and more than capable to take on
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these greater roles and step into leadership roles or into the role of the
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choreographer and utilize their experience and knowledge in new ways.
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But unfortunately, many aren't afforded the opportunity to,
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as they often go to men instead.
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I think it's so interesting because ballet is sort of built on the backs of
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women.
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Women have always been there and they've always been in the pointe shoes ready
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to go.
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We're advocating really for a majority of this workforce population that's been
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egregiously underfunded, underrepresented, and underpaid,
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and willing to take unpaying positions because they love it so much and because
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they're sort of dangled this opportunity that if they just stick with it a
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couple more years and work at the restaurant to make do,
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that they'll get these opportunities. And it doesn't always happen.
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So Liza, Dance Data Project or DDP started as an independent research project
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at your kitchen table. What inspired you to start this project originally?
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So I had one of those a-ha moments.
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I was sitting in the Auditorium Theater in Chicago-by the way,
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DDP is partnered with the Auditorium Theater.
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And I had one of those lightning bolt moments where I sat upright in my seat and
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then I actually stood up and I looked around the auditorium theater.
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And then I looked at the book and I realized that not only for that season,
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but also I had never seen a company run by a woman or
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a classical dance work by a woman.
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Now I need to point out that I'm talking mostly ballet.
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And I said, this doesn't make any sense.
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And I started asking questions and the answers that came back got more and more
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ridiculous. And I thought what's really missing here is data.
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Before we dive into the data,
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let's take a moment just to lay the groundwork for our listeners.
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Would you mind sharing DDP's research methodology and some of your
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key operational definitions?
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Yeah, I can speak to this, Dan.
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So we're providing a national and international ranking of dance companies,
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and that's based on financial and programming data that's available.
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And we are kind of just the messengers.
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All of this information is out there for grabs,
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and taxpayers and consumers just need to know that what's happening
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with these nonprofits is they have the right to understand this information.
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On the financial reporting side,
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which results in our ranking of dance companies and it gives us a groundwork for
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the overall size and scope of the industry financially,
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as well as the compensation for artistic and executive leadership,
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we use a proprietary software to process the e-filings from the IRS website.
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So that's directly from the IRS website.
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We'll cross-reference those results against previous reports and other
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third-party databases to ensure the accuracy of the software results.
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There is a double and triple checking process with our research team to verify
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that no human error has occurred and to ensure a proper statistical
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analysis has been done. And then we even go a step further.
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We don't need to do this, but we do,
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and we reach out directly to the dance companies to make sure that what they
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filed with the IRS is entirely correct.
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What we have on file for them is correct.
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Just to continue that conversation with them and make sure they're given every
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opportunity to ensure what we have for them is correct.
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Because as we've seen recently,
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our numbers truly do make a difference.
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And boards of directors look for them.
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Grant officers look for them.
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People are looking to this data and they want to be accurately represented.
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In terms of reporting on season programming,
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that's done by examining company websites, press releases,
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and also reaching out directly to companies.
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So it's very communicative and it's developing and refining over the years for
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sure.
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Wow, that's impressively thorough going through and double checking everything.
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Does that thoroughness come from also the pressure and how important this is to
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get this data right?
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Pressure? What pressure? Ha ha!
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Yeah,
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we don't publish it-talk about pressure-we don't publish it until it's a hundred
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percent correct. And if we make a mistake,
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we say we've made a mistake.
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We try and be as transparent as possible about it,
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because as Isabelle said, we are refining this all the time.
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And we added one more layer,
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which is our WWL documents- sort of
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like timeouts in surgery. Like, "Timeout, hands off the body.
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Are we all making sure that we're operating on Mrs. Carruther's left leg today,
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not Mr. Smith's right ventricle?" It's a good idea in
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hospital administration, and it's a great idea in research.
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"Everybody take a beat, take a pause. What did we learn? What can we do better?
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What questions remain unanswered?".
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Yeah, there's very much a culture of, especially in tech,
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move fast and break things.
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And I don't think that's always the best thing to do,
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especially when it comes to research.
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Having a time where you do have that "Hands off, let's all take a break" is...
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I think more people should consider that.
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Yeah, I mean you'll definitely see our research calendar,
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which we do post online. Things sort of slide out,
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and that's because I give all my new people a do's and
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don'ts and number one or number two is good enough is not good enough,
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and that may mean something is delayed a little bit.
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And how does your team verify the gender identities of choreographers and
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artistic or executive directors?
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So we collect all of this information from company websites,
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company press releases, social media.
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So we specifically look at biographies to determine
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pronouns in our research.
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We have a few categories that we put choreographers and artistic directors in.
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So we have men, we have women, we have gender expansive,
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which encompasses people who identify outside of the gender binary.
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And then we also have a mixed gender category,
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which is for teams of co-choreographers or co-artistic directors which are
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of differing genders.
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So fast forward to today, and DDP has compiled a wealth of data.
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How would you summarize the state of gender equity in dance today?
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Yeah, so we have no shortage of data really highlighting what the gender
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equity landscape looks like in ballet, primarily.
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We aren't quite at a state of equity yet,
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and that's not to knock anyone.
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There are a lot of really great organizations who are doing some amazing work to
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promote equity and highlight women and hire women. But overall,
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we are still working towards equity. So in the 2022-23 season,
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only 32% of the works presented within the largest 150 companies in
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the U.S. were choreographed by women.
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And this is only a slight increase from the season before where only 29% of
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works were by women.
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So when you consider the fact that about 85% of the
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dance field is women, that's a pretty significantly low proportion.
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When you kind of further break this down into the types of works that women do
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get to present, they are a lot more likely to present mixed bill works,
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which are typically shorter in length, involve fewer dancers,
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and ultimately require fewer resources. And over the past two
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seasons, women have choreographed 35% of these mixed bill works.
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When you look at full length works-and these are your Nutcrackers,
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your Swan Lakes, which are larger in scale, involve the full company,
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require more marketing,
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more company resources-women have historically received fewer
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opportunities. And last season women only choreographed 24% of these full
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length works among the largest 150.
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And something that we've kind of observed in our data is that the largest
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companies-so,
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ranked by expenditure from one to 50-they tend to
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program lower percentages of women-choreographed works compared
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to the additional 50,
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which is companies ranked 51 to a hundred,
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and the additional 50,
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which are companies ranked 101 to 150.
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So these companies that are smaller in scale and often have less resources
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are making greater efforts and greater advancements
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towards gender equity and providing these opportunities for women in the field.
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That's so interesting. Isabelle,
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in January you released your first international study examining programming
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outside the U.S. That's a huge milestone.
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Yeah, it was a huge milestone. And Jenna and the research team,
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it was a huge push for them, and us as an organization.
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And I think the emphasis in that is this was our first examination of company
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programming outside the U.S. We're not new to the international space,
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but we definitely have dipped our toes in and we're continuing to refine how we
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look at international work.
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The dance industry is inherently global. I mean,
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artistic director searches happen across the globe.
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Choreographers are commissioned across country lines.
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We even see dancers picking up and moving to perform in an entirely new time
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zone or on a new continent. I mean,
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we can't talk about the United States solely without the context
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of what's happening in the world around us.
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We just weren't at the scale to do that yet. And now we are,
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and we're learning how to do that by starting to look at companies
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that are primarily English speaking so that we don't have things lost in
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translation.
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And our recent report looked at that global programming at English
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speaking companies. There were 33 well-known companies included,
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ranging from regions including Australia, New Zealand,
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Canada, Hong Kong, Ireland, the Philippines, the United Kingdom,
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Singapore, and South Africa. So we're really taking a look everywhere.
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Wow, that's very global.
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Yeah, everywhere. And what we found is really interesting.
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Of the works commissioned in the 2023-2024 season
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globally, with those companies in mind,
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just 23.6% of them were choreographed by women.
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And now that we took a look globally,
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we can look inward at the United States status.
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And to compare,
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our largest 10 U.S. ballet companies are respectively
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similarly sized and of similar influence in the international industry to the
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companies that were researched during this global report.
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And of those largest 10 companies,
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we saw just 14.9% of works choreographed by women.
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Now that's for the most recent data collection we have for that population,
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which is the 22-23 season. So the season prior to our global report.
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But we see a similar number when we look at the largest 50 U.S. companies where
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22.9% of works are choreographed by women.
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So now that we have this breadth of knowledge built up globally and we can
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continue to produce the research at a global scale,
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drawing the comparisons between how we're doing on the state side
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will be really interesting going forward.
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I find that absolutely fascinating.
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What percentage of leadership positions are filled by women?
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Yeah, so within the largest 150,
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only 43% of artistic directors are women.
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And this gender distribution unfortunately hasn't really changed much between
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2018 and 2023. And again,
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when you consider how many women are in the field, this is significantly low.
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We do tend to see women lead our smaller companies rather than these larger
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companies.
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So this 43% is propped up by
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companies ranked from 51 to 150 as only
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about 24% of artistic directors within the largest 50 are women.
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To look a little bit more globally,
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we're still seeing more men come into the role of artistic directors than
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women, but there is some great progress among executive directors,
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resident choreographers,
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and associate artistic directors with more women being appointed into these
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roles. So we're seeing some positive improvements there,
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but nearly twice the amount of men becoming artistic directors than
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there are women.
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And Dan,
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I think it's important to note that this can almost be a position for life.
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We're seeing an extraordinary turnover in the industry.
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Just the sheer number of transitions in artistic
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director positions is, I would say, unprecedented.
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But it's not like we're going to see a crop like this again,
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which means the decisions being made now are going to have a generation's worth
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of impact.
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One of the interesting things you said there was in the top 10,
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that number seemed even lower.
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Do you feel that the bigger an organization gets,
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the slower they are to update, the slower they are to move?
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Overall,
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there's an inverse correlation between the size of a budget and the
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likelihood that they'll program women, is what we're telling you.
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Up until recently, they were less likely to be run by a woman.
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And I will say we are seeing some really exciting changes.
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When I started Dance Data Project,
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[among] the largest 10 ballet companies in the United States,
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only one was run by a woman. And typical glass cliff situation,
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it was Miami City Ballet, which was in real financial trouble.
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There are now four. But to reiterate what Isabelle was saying,
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across the board,
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we see fewer works by women and the company is less likely to be run by a woman
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the larger it gets. One of the things that we're researching right now is,
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is there a relationship between companies founded by women and as they
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grow, the boards tend to bring in a man to signal success or
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competency? "We want to hire a rockstar." You hear that all the time.
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In our conversations with consultants, with board members, et cetera,
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we're really having to look at:
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is there an assumption that being a rockstar and being a draw
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is equal both on the artistic director and choreographer side with being male?
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It's interesting what you said about wanting a rock star because I think that
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often comes with a lot of preconceived biases.
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I think a lot of the time men are allowed to be rock stars,
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whereas women have more emotional labor to have to
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keep everything organized and within the guidelines,
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within the bumpers.
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I think that's absolutely fair and that is absolutely...
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We see that in the data.
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Because if you look at the executive director side-which is to keep the lights
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on, keep the donors happy, keep things running-first of all,
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there's almost wage parity.
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One of the few places you're going to see men and women making almost exactly
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the same amount of money.
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And there's a lot more prevalence of women because they're doing the high
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touch involvement, they're dealing with unions, plumbers,
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security, et cetera, and very often doing a brilliant job. But yeah,
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being an executive director for the most part does not mean you're a rockstar.
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Yeah.
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When you have a study or a piece of data-some analysis that
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can be seen as criticism-how do people generally react to that?
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Yeah, I mean it's interesting because we're working in the arts,
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which is so subjective.
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It's weird to have this objective point of view now.
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And I think that's been startling for a lot of organizations that weren't used
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to being under this microscope before. So it's kind of scary for some people.
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We always approach our collaborations with organizations and our research from a
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positive way.
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We want to celebrate and uplift organizations that are doing their part
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to elevate women in the industry, to hire equitably.
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We're never trying to strike fear into their hearts.
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We want everyone to succeed. And I think there's been this transition,
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and Liza and I speak about it all the time, from kind of: who are you?
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To: Why do we care? Why are we talking about women in dance?
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There are plenty of women in dance. To:
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You have no right to this information. Meanwhile it's all publicly available,
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and we know that and they know that, but there's some conflict there.
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And then now, we're hearing,
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"Please include us." And we get requests all the time from organizations,
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small and large, national and international,
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that want to be a part of our research,
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that want to be featured by us in our newsletter, on our website,
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on our social media.
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It's great to see now reporters coming to us for the
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statistics that can help elevate and contextualize the work that they're doing.
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And same with companies who are looking to us to try and help better
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their ecosystems.
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We usually don't focus on individual companies. We're looking at trends.
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So if we're citing individual companies,
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it's because what our data shows is that they're an outlier.
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I think people also, they want to know when they're outliers as well.
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It reminds me of the nudge group in the U.K.
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I don't know if you've ever heard of this concept,
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but there was a group put together which looked at data and basically
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told people when they were outliers. So one of the studies they did,
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there was the top 5% of doctors-so "GPs" in the
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U.K.-who were prescribing the most antibiotics.
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They just sent a letter out to them to tell them that, "Hey,
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you are an outlier." And a lot of the time,
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I think I'm going to mess up the stats exactly here,
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but a lot of the doctors who were in that top 5% then dropped to the bottom 50%
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just because they knew they were outliers.
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So I think often when people understand that they're outliers,
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they naturally adjust.
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Yeah, I think to just add to that,
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whether you're an outlier because you are doing great work and you are
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programming or hiring more women than the average company, or less,
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then we can use this data to collaboratively work together to
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figure out what best practices are and how we can just overall make the industry
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better for everyone.
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Yeah. I think earlier, Liza,
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you mentioned profitability and how
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that can be kind of a harmful assumption.
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So many arts organizations are continuing to recover from financial effects of
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the pandemic.
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Have you noticed those revenue concerns stalling the movement towards equitable
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programming?
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I think [there's] embedded unconscious bias here. Very often,
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the assumption-we just ran into this with a dance writer and I wanted to reach
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through the screen and grab him because he said, "Well,
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companies can only afford so much equity," essentially if you boil down what he
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said. And I was like, huh? Because that assumption is,
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if you hire a woman or a person of color for your full
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length world premiere, nobody will show up.
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And that's absolutely not the case.
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I would like to see the data on that because I don't think it exists.
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I think that the reason there's half as many people going to ballet
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performances now versus 20,
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25 years ago is that we do need new stories and we do need new ways to
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tell them. So the answer is: Excellent question. Yes,
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there is that embedded assumption,
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and if people don't figure something out soon,
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we're going to be seeing Nutcracker ending in July and starting again in
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October. I mean, the sector has got to come up with something interesting.
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I think you can get new people in the seats,
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[but] there has to be some creativity there.
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And I understand that budgets are small, but we need to try new things.
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We really do.
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We were in a conversation with the Artistic Director at Hubbard Street,
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Linda-Denise Fisher-Harrell, who's fantastic,
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and she was just talking about all the new types of people who were coming to
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Hubbard Street's performances.
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And it's because they've been creative and they've brought in new voices.
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And I think to sustain this industry long-term,
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that's exactly what we need to be doing and we need to figure it out now.
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I think that's such a good point, Isabelle.
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And I think it also points to how it is so important
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for the artistic side and the marketing side to just talk more,
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just have more conversations, be linked more. Because as marketers,
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the more we can honestly represent what is on stage,
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the better connection we'll have with our audience and the more people we're
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going to bring in as well.
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Exactly. How can we keep informing our audiences?
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How can we keep them excited and help them learn more and want to come to the
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show?
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Let's talk about what happens after people interact with the data
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that you've provided. After an artist or leader reads one of your reports,
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how do you encourage them to follow up with the next steps?
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So to speak to the data side of things:
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I think referring to the reports and the data that we are presenting and then
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using that as a comparison to what the organization is doing
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internally in terms of hiring,
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just to compare and reflect on where things could be better,
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where improvements can be made, where things may be lacking,
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or just identifying where room for improvement is.
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I think it's such valuable information. I know on the consultant side,
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one of the biggest questions is,
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"How are we doing in comparison with other people?" It's such a useful thing to
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know.
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I also go on listening tours.
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I'll let Isabelle talk a little bit more about our listening tours,
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but I think we've been to almost 30 companies.
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Yeah.
26:25
Something that's hard to get a sense of when you're just looking at the numbers
26:29
is sort of the culture at a company.
26:31
And Liza's been going to visit to meet with artistic staff,
26:34
hear from the dancers,
26:35
and just sort of be an open ear to hear about their experiences,
26:40
learn more about what's happening behind the scenes at the organizations,
26:43
and then when her face is put with the work that we're doing,
26:47
and she can have these one-on-one conversations with artistic staff,
26:51
there's so much room for creativity and collaboration,
26:54
and honestly just the sourcing of new names.
26:57
Why do we keep-even though some companies are doing great and are
27:01
commissioning female choreographers, sometimes they're the same ones!
27:05
We keep seeing the same ones.
27:06
And there are a plethora of talented women who are flooding this
27:11
industry that is, I think Jenna said,
27:13
a 75 to 85% female-identifying workforce population.
27:17
And so many are interested in choreography.
27:20
There is so much creativity that we can be using to try and get more women in
27:24
the door and on the stage so that audience members who are 70%
27:29
female-identifying can see themselves represented.
27:33
So Isabelle, here at CI, we love data. The more stats the better.
27:36
But some people prefer to process information through anecdotes and stories.
27:41
Do you have any resources that can help tell this story in a more emotional way?
27:45
Yeah, this is what I spend a large portion of my day doing,
27:48
so thank you for asking.
27:50
And it's funny because DDP existed to kind of shift us from anecdote to
27:55
hard numbers, and now we also,
27:57
we love a story and we love hearing from these actual people because when you
28:01
put a face behind the work and behind the statistic,
28:05
it's a lot harder to dehumanize that. So we're trying to make these connections.
28:10
And we have so many resources on our website.
28:13
Raising the Barre is our biggest programming initiative to accomplish this.
28:17
It launched last fall.
28:19
We've also had interviews and very candid conversations with
28:23
mothers in the industry with our Moving Forces series.
28:27
Our DDP Talks To interview series really spans
28:32
written and verbal interviews.
28:35
And our Global Conversation series was truly groundbreaking because it happened
28:39
during the pandemic, and because we did 50 interviews in about 14 months,
28:44
I want to say. And we talked with people all over the world.
28:48
They were lighting designers, they were in production, they were stage managers.
28:52
We talked to a fight coordinator,
28:55
and it was basically just to kind of hear what else can we do in this industry?
29:01
We're so used to knowing as dancers that our career
29:05
maybe ends in our thirties if we're lucky, maybe our forties, and we retire.
29:10
And then you either teach or you go back to school and do something else.
29:14
There are so many other creative avenues for staying in the industry that we
29:18
love,
29:18
and we see a disparity in who is pursuing those
29:23
opportunities.
29:24
And so just kind of putting them on a platter for people is how we like to
29:28
structure our interview series and really connect audiences to those stories.
29:33
Amazing.
29:34
And can you tell us a little bit more about the leaderboard you created?
29:38
Sure. So Dan, we're very practical at DDP. We're not just numbers.
29:43
It's see a problem, solve a problem. I was dealing with the perception that,
29:47
quote,
29:48
"there are no good female choreographers." Or in looking for new
29:53
leaders, "Oh, I don't know any women." And the answer is, "Well,
29:57
here you go. Set, costume,
29:59
lighting designers." But the idea is if somebody wants to take
30:04
that extra step, which I sure hope they do,
30:07
and look for a female set, costume, lighting designer,
30:11
back of house people, et cetera, there's a listing of names.
30:14
And Isabelle will correct me, but we're moving towards 900 at this point.
30:19
Yeah, I actually will correct you because we're moving towards a thousand now.
30:22
We have 979 entries and it's been steadily
30:27
growing.
30:28
And it's just funny because the excuse that we don't
30:32
know women who we could hire for this position,
30:36
don't know of other female choreographers than this list of 10,
30:39
is funny because we have the proof and it's really easy to navigate.
30:43
You can search by position, you can search by company,
30:47
you can search by first or last name,
30:49
you can download it as a CSV or an Excel or PDF.
30:54
So it's really interactive and very useful day to day.
30:58
I love that it's 'see a problem, solve a problem' but also 'see an excuse,
31:01
debunk an excuse' as well.
31:05
So conversations about gender equity stretch far beyond the dance world,
31:10
obviously. For listeners who work at museums, theaters,
31:14
presenting organizations,
31:15
what's one thing they can do today to push for gender equity at their own arts
31:20
organizations?
31:22
Yeah,
31:22
I think this is why our data is so useful to track
31:27
change across the industry. But then again,
31:30
individually reflecting and using that data to compare how you
31:34
measure up against other organizations or measure it up against the average and
31:40
how can we use that data to push the average in a more favorable direction.
31:45
Absolutely.
31:46
And information is power. I'm just going to come back to that.
31:51
The more you know, the more you can advocate.
31:54
Change is iterative and the more informed it is, the better.
31:58
I think learning to read a tax return, as boring as it sounds,
32:02
there's a wealth of information in there.
32:05
And I would also say that allyship with other organizations is
32:09
super, super important.
32:11
The other thing I would say is that if you are a donor... I mean,
32:15
for $50 you may not get a seat at the table,
32:18
although there's no reason why a large group of $50 donors couldn't get together
32:23
to create change. I started a hashtag #AskBeforeYouGive.
32:28
The minute before you turn over the check is the minute of your greatest power.
32:32
On the other side, on the organization side,
32:36
a friend of mine in the business who I respect a lot, she said, and I quote,
32:41
"Performing arts philanthropy has not changed much in the last 40
32:45
years." And I think that's why we're all in quite a bit of trouble.
32:50
So let's look for opportunities. For example, fund a daycare initiative.
32:56
Or if you have the means to build a building, which most of us don't,
32:59
instead maybe think about funding opportunities within a
33:03
community.
33:05
Support the leaders of color and support the women.
33:10
Find out what they need. Maybe they need daycare supplement, maybe they need...
33:16
There's a lot of ways to intervene, but it takes creativity.
33:20
And I also think it takes perseverance.
33:23
We always end our interviews with this question, the CI to Eye moment.
33:29
If you could broadcast one message to the executive directors, leadership teams,
33:33
staff and boards of a thousand arts organizations, what would that message be?
33:40
I'd say let's look beyond what we've always done. I mean,
33:45
we know that we need to break down some of these traditions that aren't serving
33:49
us anymore, especially in the ballet industry.
33:52
If you have the same list of choreographers you always pull from for a mixed rep
33:56
show, let's shake it up and let's take a chance because we're in the arts,
34:01
we're trying to make change. This is exactly where change should start,
34:05
but we're lagging behind. So use some creativity.
34:09
I really would say engage with your marketing department,
34:12
engage with your community.
34:14
Engagement is so important and education is how you
34:19
create an audience that wants to come back.
34:21
They're not just going to come for a one-off show because you say that this
34:25
world renowned choreographer is coming in from Europe.
34:29
What about this process, what about this new work, is revolutionary?
34:33
And why should it matter to them? That's how you get people in the door,
34:38
and that's how you get them to stay.
34:39
And I don't think we can continue to use the excuse that it's too risky to take
34:43
some of these chances because I don't think we've tried enough yet.
34:48
On the other hand,
34:49
I love to think about what we as individuals in the audience can do,
34:54
because I don't have the money to be donating to a major ballet company,
34:58
but I'm buying tickets. I love dance, so where am I buying a ticket to?
35:03
Because the company's going to look and see what sold out and what
35:07
didn't. And if you keep buying tickets to see Swan Lake...
35:10
I know it's beautiful. I love Swan Lake. I was in Swan Lake. It's great.
35:16
But can we also purchase tickets to support a new up-and-coming choreographer
35:20
and her journey? That's really something that's tangible on our own level,
35:25
and it matters.
35:27
I think let's look within and figure out what we can do on just a
35:31
performance level as audience members.
35:35
Awesome. I love that.
35:36
I think just allowing numbers,
35:40
using numbers and this data to best benefit your community,
35:44
your organization, the whole industry.
35:47
How can we make it a more equitable space? We love to say that as artists,
35:51
that we're change makers and that we want to change the world and make a better
35:56
place,
35:56
but if we don't use this data and actually follow through on our
36:01
practices, are we really able to say that?
36:03
So I think just practicing what we preach and embodying
36:08
that and taking that upon ourselves.
36:11
Amazing.
36:12
And I'll go last. I'm going to put on a different hat,
36:15
which is my donor hat sitting in board meetings.
36:18
It is a reality that development directors sit in on programming meetings,
36:24
and they can very often have an overweighted influence.
36:28
Their job is to curate a small group of
36:33
older, usually more conservative donors,
36:36
and make sure they come through with big gifts. And I've seen it happen,
36:40
and that really alters programming.
36:43
And that's across the board. It's "Oh,
36:47
I can't sell that" or "I don't know how Mrs. So-and-so is going to feel about
36:52
that." That really to me is a dereliction of duty,
36:55
and that is an asymmetric use of power that I think most people
37:00
outside of performing arts organizations or museums,
37:04
et cetera-"I can't sell." That becomes the mantra. "I can sell this.
37:08
I can't sell that." And the assumption is if it's a piece
37:13
done, made, curated, whatever,
37:15
by a rock star filmmaker, choreographer,
37:19
usually white and male, "Oh,
37:21
I can sell that." And I see that insidious tilting.
37:25
Any not-for-profit exists to benefit the community.
37:29
So we are answerable to our constituents,
37:33
who are our taxpayers, or more specifically the communities around us.
37:38
And I think we really do need a reorientation of thought that way.
37:42
Nobody has to go to a performance anymore.
37:45
There are so many more outlets out there that the competition is much
37:49
fiercer, and instead of doubling down on retrograde,
37:52
I think to Isabelle's point,
37:54
opening yourself up and doing the tough work of
37:59
introducing yourself to audiences and people you didn't know before,
38:03
which is uncomfortable, but I think that's where the obligation is.
38:08
Amazing. What great points to end on. Liza, Isabelle, Jenna,
38:12
I've really enjoyed this conversation,
38:13
so thank you so much for taking the time and joining with us.
38:15
Thank you so much, Dan.
38:26
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
38:28
This episode was edited and produced by Karen McConarty and co-written by Karen
38:33
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
38:35
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CI to Eye's designers and video editors,
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and all work together to create CI's digital content.
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