Latest / Follow the Leighder / Forced Retirement as a Trans Space Force Colonel | Col. Bree Fram (Ret.)

Transcript

Forced Retirement as a Trans Space Force Colonel | Col. Bree Fram (Ret.) · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining us from Reston, Virginia is United States Space Force Colonel, retired, Bree Fram. Welcome to the studio. Bree Fram: ⁓ thanks for having me, Lee. It's a pleasure to join you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Folks, check out this resume and prepare to be humbled. lifelong public servant. This is Bree Fram joining us again from Virginia. She's running for office ⁓ for Virginia 11 Congress. Thank you for raising your hand to run. But this is after spending 23 years defending the United States and the Constitution. ⁓ as in the military. And again, the United States Space Force, we have some questions about that. But what is really inspiring, awesome and really defying of all the narrative coming out of the Pentagon right now is that when she was promoted to Colonel, ⁓ she was openly out about her transgender journey and her identity, which goes to show, mean, you were second in ⁓ the list for merit on for this position. And I mean, you're astounding. You have done so much for our military and for our country. And first of all, thank you for your service. Thank you for choosing to run and use your voice after serving to continue serving in and for the public. Can you talk to us a little bit about what motivated you to serve in the military to begin with? Where does this come from? Bree Fram: Yeah, despite a long history of military service in my family, and we can certainly get into this story of both my grandfathers as 20th century immigrants and refugees who turned around and fought in World War II with distinction, I had no intention of joining the military as a kid. Even growing up, I just went to school to be an aerospace engineer. But I graduated in 2001 and I thought, wow, there's this amazing ⁓ piece in front of us and I can do anything I want to. So I was applying for jobs at places like NASA, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, but then we got attacked as I was doing those interviews and my worldview changed in a heartbeat. It was just several days later that I was... driving from the Twin Cities in Minnesota to see my then-girlfriend, who is now my wife, who lived in Duluth. And that's about a two-hour drive up the interstate. And there was an American flag hanging from an overpass halfway there. I saw that. I cried the rest of the way. It was a good thing I had done that drive so many times that I could do it on autopilot. But I walked into her apartment and said, I'm going to join the Air Force. And so within a few weeks, I was in a recruiter's office and began the journey to serve because I knew then that freedom wasn't free and it was my turn to help be part of defending it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Wow. And that you did. Can you talk about your, first of all, thank you for your family's military service too, to show that you knew what this was, you know what it was like to serve, the lifestyle at least, just the, that it's not a nine to five in the way that it's not a normal job. ⁓ It's a whole different world with a different language, uniform. And so you kind of had this experience and like you said, were also, ⁓ your grandparents were immigrants and refugees. Can you talk a little bit about that? Bree Fram: Yeah, absolutely. I look at my family history and on one hand through one of my grandmas, I can trace ⁓ service all the way back to Virginia's House of Burgesses in the 1650s and military service in the Revolution with a number of officers. Though that family then moved down to South Carolina and fought on the wrong side for a while. But the whole rest of my family at my grandparents level came to this country in the 20th century. My grandfather's parents came from Latvia and Lithuania ⁓ as immigrants in the 19-teens, and he then became a first lieutenant in the US Army Signal Corps, had this amazing claim to fame from his guile of demanding the surrender of over 3,000 Germans from him and his 20 men and two trucks, ⁓ and they did. He captured the entire city of Selingen in Germany three days before the rest of the army got there through telling them they were surrounded. ⁓ Incredible story. ⁓ My other grandfather, whose medals hang behind me here as we're talking, ⁓ was a refugee, was a German Jew who got out in 1936 on a midnight train to Paris in a brief window opened by the Berlin Olympics. the day before the SS came to arrest their family. And it was only after ⁓ there was an incident outside their hotel that my great grandfather owned where two men or two people were hung naked, ⁓ one ⁓ a Jew, one a Christian. And the sign underneath said, this is what happens when you pollute the Aryan race. And my great grandfather had thought he was safe. The Nazis were were uplifted, he was an Imperial German war hero in World War I. And he thought the uniform would protect him. But that was the time he realized, we have to go. And through a lucky quirk of someone they had met 15 years earlier, they got into the United States. And as soon as my grandfather was old enough, raised his right hand, knowing what evil was and said, send me back. ⁓ He earned two bronze stars, was offered a battlefield commission for valor. that he turned down so he could stay with his unit. And ⁓ when I was commissioned, he gave me one of those brown stars. And there is photographic evidence of me looking confused. Like, what does this mean? Because he put it in a frame with a picture behind it with the words that said, courage does not always roar. Sometimes it is the quiet voice, and I get emotional thinking about this. It's the quiet voice at the end of the day that says, I will do my best tomorrow. And I didn't understand that as a 23 year old, what that meant. But I learned what that meant through my years of service, through two attempts, one that finally worked to throw me out of the service based on something that had absolutely nothing to do with my ability to serve, but what it meant to get up. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Bree Fram: day after day to put on the uniform to do your best on behalf of this country despite everything going on around you. And so now I sure as hell get it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Wow, that is so powerful. was getting like, thank you for sharing that. That is so moving. And it really demonstrates the pride and the patriotism that you had, even though, like you said, you weren't particularly interested in serving in the military until later, until after it changed for you. And then suddenly, like in your words, we were attacked. You knew evil and you said, all right, send me. So there is that connection even between your... your family story and you and ⁓ you're not alone. There's so many American families that this is, serving is part of their family story. And I'm curious, you went on to be a rocket scientist, which is so apt in the military. Can you talk about your service, what it looked like to go into the United States Space Force, a new branch? relative, you know, in the last 10 years. Can you talk about your your actual service? Bree Fram: Well, joining the Space Force was like a dream come true on so many levels. And when I finally got the email that said, would you like to join the Space Force, it felt like a marriage proposal. And I was like, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. And it was amazing because I can go all the way back to being nine or 10 years old and having a friend drag me over my objection. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No. Bree Fram: to watch an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation with them. And I was like, ⁓ I want to be Geordi LaForge. I want to make the warp engines go. I want to help humanity expand into the stars. And that's what led me on this path to become an aerospace engineer and then specialize in astronautical engineering and be a rocket scientist. Because I also saw early on not just the power of technology and what it could do, but When I look back at my early like Star Trek, it wasn't just seeing the technology and the ships, that was great. But it was also seeing the culture that I believed in, where people literally from different planets could come together, work together, trust one another, do the most difficult things possible to protect the galaxy and protect people. And that was super important to me to see that early on as well. not just the tech that inspired me to go into this field. But when I did join the service, I got to do so many incredible things over the course of my career. From my very first job where I was designing ⁓ small rockets that could launch satellites into space from underneath an F-15, or working on the vibration isolation systems that would prevent satellites from being shaken apart as they're launched on top of these basically controlled explosions that are Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Bree Fram: rocket engines. And from there, I got sent to get a master's degree in astronautical engineering. I worked on a number of missile warning programs, infrared satellites that detect anything on the planet that's hot. I worked in the intelligence community doing signals intelligence satellites and groundwork. ⁓ But I also got all sorts of cool opportunities to do some non-space stuff. I came to the Pentagon, I worked on the hill for a year as a defense fellow working for the congresswoman from Guam. I've done international affairs, strategic planning. I spent my year as a ⁓ commander doing counter drone work before Ukraine. We were doing the amazing work that could knock out drones with cyber and electronic effects. And I've been able to work and get another master's degree in national security studies. And in my final couple of jobs, when I came back to the Pentagon, I developed the Space Forces policy for how we buy things and then worked to do requirements in my very final job. So planning, what are the capabilities that we're going to need five, 10, 20 years down the road to, if conflict extends to space, ensure we're there with the capabilities that'll let us prevail. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Wow. Well, that, I think, A, taught a lot of people about what the space force does. I think a lot of people still have a lot of questions. But all of that is incredible. And those are critical institutional programs that you are a part of. mean, policies, procedures, decision-making, influence, where... I mean, like you said, you were trusted with strategic analysis and international affairs, relationship building, looking at policies, cross-cultural. There's just so much. Talk to me about what was that like and what does the military do to train folks to do as much as you did? Bree Fram: There's so much that goes into our training, whether it's your technical training in your specialty or it's broad-based leadership training that is how to lead under pressure. How do you know yourself, which I really believe is the foundation of leadership, is if you can't be honest with yourself, how do you be honest with others in building those trusting relationships that are so important to cohesive teams? But our training is... varied and will be dramatically different for someone who flies an aircraft ⁓ or leads a small unit into ground combat. ⁓ We clearly have a different technical path that we all go on, but at a more senior level, it really does focus in on what does it mean to lead and what does it mean to have a broader strategic perspective? How do you pick your vision up from looking down at this is the thing I have to be really good at, to looking up and around and saying, now I really need to understand the context that we're operating in. Not just what do I need to do and what does my team need to do, but how does it connect to everything else? Whether that's within the military and the joint force or within the whole of government and what does it mean to serve the interests of the United States and the American people. That's really important to be able to do the more and more senior you get. Leigh/@followtheleighder: You've talked about your family. You've talked about how your girlfriend is now your wife, your girlfriend at the time when you saw the flag at 9-11. And you've talked about this team aspect, this coming together. What was that like to go through your change gender journey in the military, in the service? What was the response and what surprised you and what didn't surprise you? Bree Fram: Honestly, the response did surprise me in a way of exceeding my wildest expectations. And when I came out, it was the very first day that the ban ended on transgender service members serving openly back in 2016. And I was in my first tour at the Pentagon. I actually thought about going down to the press briefing room where the Secretary of Defense was making the announcement. just to try and be a fly on the wall and be in the room where it happened, if we can get a Hamilton reference in there. ⁓ But I stayed at my desk, I watched on closed circuit TV inside the building there, and when he was done speaking, I had an email ready to go to all my colleagues and a Facebook post coming out to the world. And he wrapped up and I hesitated, because I didn't know how my life was gonna change. But eventually I got the courage, I hit send, I hit post and then I ran away. I went to the gym buried underneath the Pentagon. I got on that elliptical machine and I like to say I went nowhere faster than I'd ever gone anywhere in my life because all that nervous energy of what now? But when I got back to my desk, one by one, the people in my office walked over to me, shook my hand and said, it's an honor to serve with you. And... ⁓ I was in your tears because the honor was mine to serve with them. Now, admittedly, I worked with a bunch of space nerds in planning at the Pentagon, but that response, by and large, is what trans people received because our military ethos is basically around, look to my left, look to my right, do you have my back when things are tough? Can you do your job? Are you competent? And the answer Leigh/@followtheleighder: Hahaha! Bree Fram: When it's yes, it's easy. You're part of the team. Come on, let's get the job done. We have a mission to do. ⁓ On Facebook with friends and family, it was almost nothing but love for me as well. The only downside was my wife lost about half her friends and family that day, merely for who she chose to love. Her parents didn't speak with us for almost a year other than two emails to say, are the kids? And that hurt. It hurt her. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you Bree Fram: and it hurt me seeing her be hurt in that way. ⁓ So that was really hard. But that experience, and there's certainly so much that happened in between, was really the bookend. ⁓ Because at the very end of my service, when I knew I was being placed on administrative leave after the Supreme Court allowed the executive order that this president issued to fire me, ⁓ I would go to my last week's worth of meetings every time telling folks, ⁓ or knowing that it was my last. And so there was one with the joint staff. And because the Space Force is so small, we often send someone who is one or two ranks lower than the other services send. So I go as a colonel to this room full of admirals and generals. And just so happens that I sit at the end of the table where when we went around the room at the end, I was last. And they said, all right, Space Force, what you got? I offered one work-related item and I said, this is my last meeting. ⁓ I don't know when we're gonna have a replacement because this is an unexpected departure. And the officer sitting next to me looked at me and said, ⁓ why? What new assignment did you get? Where are you going? Because when I walked into a room, whatever room it was, people didn't see a trans person. They saw a colonel. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you Bree Fram: what that uniform represented, the responsibility and experience that it carried, and what that meant. And what happened then in that room was that I said, no, I don't meet this administration's standard for military excellence and readiness, which was the title of the executive order that fired me. And it took a moment, but the scene from 2016 repeated. except this time it was a room full of admirals and generals standing up, walking over to me, shaking my hand and saying with the tinge of sadness in the past tense, it's been an honor to have served with you. I made it out of that room before just leaning against the wall in tears because my heart had shattered into a million pieces, but it also told me that we won. We. knew that everyone else had accepted who we were because we had showed up for a decade and got the job done, had met or exceeded every standard and that every argument thrown against us was so full of nonsense that it was obvious to everyone who had the chance to serve with us. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you Thank you for that. was a very powerful story. And I did for folks who aren't watching this. I got a little choked up earlier, but I didn't want to interrupt. But that's exactly the ideal. It's been an honor to serve with you. From anyone you serve with, that is exactly the handshake I want to have at the end of anyone's career. That's the training we want, and that's the training you had. And it's the community support that you had in your unit. And it really goes to show how much this entire rhetoric ⁓ coming out of the Pentagon, coming out of so much is, transgender people are not the problem. They are not what is, that's not what is. Bree Fram: do not have that second head growing out of our shoulders. We're not the boogeyman. We're people where, like, the 17th most interesting thing about us should be that we're trans. Though I always worry when I say something like that, people are like, tell me the 16 more interesting things about you, and then I'll sputter. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No. I know. Okay, well, here's the thing also, just reading, like I said, researching you before this conversation, that was kind of, I I don't, that was, was like, she's so interesting. Like I have so many other things we could talk about before we even get there. I think, but this is what, this is the hormone. And I know that you also have worked so much with Sparta Pride and we'll talk about that too. But I did want to ask you if there was anything you weren't good at because if you had. Bree Fram: Parallel parking. I suck. I am probably an average driver, but I am a way below average parker. I'm terrible. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. That's fine. That's fine. Keep building rockets. Someone else will work for you. We'll figure that out. ⁓ Well, we'll talk about what that was like. I know you talked about the exit and the conversation with your unit before you left. But I mean, to have the family of your romantic partner and then also have the institution. sort of like these aren't people that are closest to you. These are outsiders you can't control. Can ⁓ you talk about particularly navigating the system going from being selected by merit as an openly trans person into the highest ranking position, again, openly, openly folks, for a transgender person as Colonel, for the whole armed forces, by the way, to to again losing your career out of in an institutional bureaucratic move that was not even in alignment with your unit. Can you talk about that feeling that the loss of control or just even navigating the military institutional part of it? What was that like? Bree Fram: Yeah, probably the toughest thing, both through the first attempt to throw out trans people in the first Trump administration and the second, while wearing the uniform, was navigating how you walk down that road where you understand and comply with the restrictions that are placed on our speech by the uniform and the regulations that we have to follow. And this is what I actually think and believe. So... For a lot of us, I think it built a skill set of how do we talk about the issue and how do we make sure we take as much of, I don't want to say the emotion out of it, but there's certainly no partisanship as part of it. It is about readiness. It is about having highly qualified people that can say, look, here are all the standards and here's exactly how I meet or exceed them. And in my case, it was... and in just about everyone's case, it was super simple. You could look at our performance reports that all said, meet or exceed standards for years and years of service. ⁓ So I took it as storytelling. This is what I can do ⁓ from the position that I have is tell people's stories. And that turned into two different books, that turned into a number of profiles across social media, say, Look at these people. Look at what they've done. See who they are. And then try and come to a conclusion based on what they've done and draw that argument to its rational conclusion. When you look at what is being said about us in the position of the executive order that labeled us as undisciplined, dishonorable liars who lack the humility required for military service or you get an extension of those arguments that were thrown against every group that has integrated into the military over the past hundred years, where it is some form of they are incapable, unwilling, or just too incompetent to serve in whatever role that is. And that was with African Americans, with Native Americans, with women. with lesbians, gays, and bisexuals, with women again, and now again and again in combat as they look to argue to throw people out. But every time, if you ever took a fact-based approach to the competence and the character of these people, they met or exceeded every standard and the arguments were nonsense. And that's what happened with Transfolks 2, and so tried to do everything possible through storytelling the show again and again, just how. there was nothing except for animus behind the arguments to throw us out. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, what did that look like specifically for you to be forced out? you, was it a modified retirement? Like kind of walk us through what that looked like too. Bree Fram: Yeah, because I had 23 years in service, I was able to request retirement. ⁓ But I knew when the Supreme Court fired me, which was just one year ago yesterday, or they let the president's executive order go into place, that very shortly thereafter, I was going to be placed on administrative leave ⁓ because I had already had several negative instances where I was the expert in a situation and I was supposed to go brief senior leaders across the service on this program and what we were trying to do. And then I was pulled from it at the last meeting because they didn't want to embarrass the people in the room to have a trans person there who was the expert and my boss had to go do this stuff. ⁓ So I got placed on administrative leave ⁓ early last. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Was that ever verbalized or was that just kind of understood? Bree Fram: ⁓ That's what I was told, yes. ⁓ That, yeah, you weren't supposed to be there. Now, I don't think I was supposed to have been told that, but I got that from people who were in those rooms. And then it was seven months sitting around waiting for my retirement to be finalized where the only duty that I had was to send an email every Monday that said I was alive. No one responded to that. And it was just the processing on the way out. And then even then, a week before I was formally retired, I got called into the Pentagon ⁓ and told by a three-star general that even after retirement, I am still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. And this was just a couple weeks after Mark Kelly had been told the same thing ⁓ by Hegsath. And I'm like, are you threatening me? Is this a you need to be silent? Because absolutely not. I will not be. It was one of the most awkward, strangest meetings. But in that meeting, it was also where I was told you will have no official support for your retirement ceremony. The members of your unit will not be allowed to attend. No honor guard. None of those things that are typically part of a military retirement ceremony. And that was on top of the fact that I already knew and others as well. that we weren't even allowed to wear our own uniforms to our retirement ceremony or we would have been brought up on charges. So it was indignity on top of indignity while we were being kicked out the door. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm so sorry for your experience and so many others who experience the same, because it's like you said, ⁓ it's cruel for the sake of cruelty because it's not pragmatic. There's no real just, you were the expert in the room. People are embarrassed by, and the whole thing is. It almost is like weirdly like on it is unmilitary like it just shouldn't matter you go into the room You deliver the information you leave it shouldn't matter who's delivering that info that is like kind of the whole point of the rank, know what and so it's ⁓ There's so many I Don't want to say loopholes, but like hypocrite and maybe hypocritical ⁓ is probably the best way but Can you talk about how that translated into your role with Sparta Pride and what is Sparta Pride for those who may not know? Bree Fram: So SPARTA is a nonprofit organization that represents, educates, and advocates on behalf of transgender service members. And by the time I was kicked out, my time with SPARTA had ended. I was the president of the organization, but that ended in 2023. But I had served in leadership roles with them for quite a while. So They are that organization out there that does everything possible to take care of trans service members ⁓ and do the work not only to look for legislative ⁓ answers to this, to basically codify what had been done via executive order over the years beginning with the integration of African Americans into the military by President Truman to say it is all about Can you meet the standards? Not anything about your identity that should be the limiting factor on what you can or can't do in the service. And more importantly, even than that, than doing that work, doing that external advocacy was being there for service members. Having a peer-to-peer support network, finding people in crisis, the resources that they needed, and making sure people were taken care of. So I'm proud of what the organization has done over the years, what it continues to do ⁓ as ⁓ so many of the people in the organization are plaintiffs in the court cases that are still going to be going through the judicial system for years on this issue and what the organization continues to do to advocate for the service members that have been affected by this and people in the future that want to serve that just happen to be trans. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right, Well, it is an amazing program and there's so much advocacy. I know that you've done that. You led that for several years and now Major Kara Corcoran has taken that over, correct? Is that? Yeah, yeah. And she's over in the Army. One question I did forget to ask before we moved on to your post service. Can you just explain for folks Bree Fram: That's correct, kids. Leigh/@followtheleighder: why there is a space force and an air force. for those who thought this was all fun and games and is now realizing, no, it's not. Can you talk about what it is? Bree Fram: Yeah. I'm super happy to talk about ⁓ why a space force. And it is actually really critical. Because without our space capabilities, we basically set the clock back about 100 years. We've taken away some of the capabilities that we may have had 60 years ago, and we've moved them to space. And we can do these things so much better. But The Space Force is there not just to develop leaders who think about space for their entirety of their career, because it's a dramatically different domain. Just like you wouldn't expect someone in the Air Force to know what does it mean to have small arms infantry tactics or work with tanks. They don't think about ground maneuver. We think about how to do it in the air. It is the same in space. It is dramatically different. There's a whole different set of physics basically that operate when you are in orbit. And you have to understand those things. You have to understand how the different military concepts apply in that domain. So to develop the people that can think about that both tactically and then later in their careers strategically is super important rather than having them bounce back and forth in and out of ⁓ space or air or whatever service they happen to come from ⁓ assignments. The other is honestly it's a budgetary. imperative because when most of the space mission was within the Department of the Air Force, even though you have space capability that provides so much to the Joint Force, you would get battles internal to the service about, do we buy another rocket or do we buy more fighter jets? And when you have a service run by fighter pilots, there is an inherent bias. We need more airplanes. So to have that now, that decision made at the Secretary of the Air Force level ⁓ and to have a service chief who speaks space and goes and testifies to Congress. And that is their sole mission to advocate for the needs of the service and organize, train, and equip that force. That's incredibly important. So it's both understanding the technology, understanding how our government works, what advocacy means, and then just building the leaders who know how important space is because the Space Force provides services to the world, like the Global Positioning Service. And so if you use your phone to navigate, you use your credit card to make a purchase, that is all underpinned by things that the Space Force develops and operates. You're not on a daily basis gonna communicate with the Army or the Navy, but you will with the Space Force. And that is a free service provided to the world, but it is vital to everything we do. And there would be a lot of people, mean hundreds of millions likely, that just can't survive if space capabilities go away. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ absolutely. Absolutely. I had a conversation with someone about this recently about if satellites and all of that just, if that was a weapon that overnight, all the satellites are taken out or something. was like, don't, crippling, crippling. That is now a war military strategy to take out someone's satellite. You don't have to take any wives really. It can happen on its own from the effects of taking out a satellite. I mean, it can. Bree Fram: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Leigh/@followtheleighder: You mean it will cause like riots. mean, there is like a whole chain of events that will happen. ⁓ And, it's. ⁓ Bree Fram: I mean, if your Amazon driver can't find their way to your house, I mean, there might be riots just over that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Just over that, But yeah, absolutely. And I've been thinking about that too, the further we get into AI and cybersecurity and satellites, like it's all our, all of our physical world is so dependent on the digital world. And what Space Force provides is that protection. mean, y'all are analyzing that day in and day out and stuff that we don't even think about. Americans don't. Bree Fram: Yeah, it is there to secure our nation's interests in, from, and to space. And if a war extends to space, to fight and win, to defend our assets and hold the enemy assets in space at risk. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, talk about, thank you for your military service and for your SPARTA, but you have recently raised your hand to run for office in Virginia in the 11th District for Congress. Can you talk about that decision to run for office? Bree Fram: Yeah, that goes back to that year ago again when I knew my time in service was going to end. No matter what I tried to do, ⁓ there had to be a next chapter because we weren't in the universe where I was gonna serve for another 10 years anymore. And I wish I could have. I loved what I did, the people that I worked with, the mission and the camaraderie that we had, ⁓ but something would have to come next. And... I also like to believe that even if I hadn't been tossed out I would have been struggling with my conscience and hopefully making a decision to leave on my own anyways because I did not sign up for a Department of War. I think there are so many things going on right now that are illegal, reckless, and dangerous and putting service members' lives unnecessarily at risk while committing what are clearly the definition of war crimes on the high seas. ⁓ where we could be taking law enforcement action, but instead are choosing military force. It would have been really difficult ⁓ to be in regardless. And I know a lot of people are struggling with the moral injury of that right now. had a conversation with someone who left after 10 years and they said they just didn't feel anything other than shame at the end because they had been told all along, that no matter what they did, what small part they played, the end result was part of their work. And they said, I just can't be part of this anymore. ⁓ And I do not say that to say that everyone in the military is doing bad things. Everyone in the military is trying to do the best damn job that they can. And they are all trying to live up to their oaths to the Constitution. But that wasn't there for me anymore. ⁓ And so I thought, what can I do to help protect democracy? helped continue my service and my oath to the Constitution, and was that go work for a large advocacy organization, do other work, but eventually it settled on this. What does public service look like in a different form? What would it mean to run for office and not just use my military, national security, whole of government experience, but also in a glib way at least, Hey administration, here's what happens when you kick out a bunch of highly motivated badasses without expecting consequences. ⁓ So go do the thing that is hard. And even if I don't win the election, ⁓ what other wins can we have along the way? Whether that is inspiring people, getting other people to sign up and register to vote, give people hope that we can get through this because now is the time to stay and fight. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: All right. Bree Fram: And for that story, ⁓ I go back just a couple of years. ⁓ I mentioned what happened to my grandfather, ⁓ but I was at a, ⁓ it was in Maine. I had met my mom there for the weekend. It was her Mother's Day present. And after I picked her up at the airport, we sat down at a bench by the ocean. And the first thing she asked me was, what's your plan to flee? Because she looked back at that family history. She thought my uniform might blind me in the same way her grandfather had been blinded and that this country would come after me and I wouldn't realize it until it was too late and I wouldn't be able to protect my family. ⁓ And I had to tell her just that same thing. Mom, it's not time to flee, it's time to fight. ⁓ It is time to stand up and do everything possibly so we don't end up in that situation. where we go from telling people that trans folks or others are less than human to actually getting rid of them. But that's happening right now. We have people fleeing from one state to another or many more fleeing this country. And I fundamentally believe that not only is there no such thing as the wrong kind of American, but that this nation should be a beacon to immigrants and refugees like my family had the opportunity to do, not a source of them. We can do better. And so that's among the many reasons why I'm fighting to have that representation and that perspective in Congress. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And thank you for naming that. ⁓ What has the support or what has the campaign trail been like so far this year and trying to respond to so many headlines? Bree Fram: There is no way to respond to everything. is seven or eight fresh hells thrust upon us every day and it is truly that flood the zone concept that Steve Bannon said that they were gonna do. There's no way to pay attention to all of it. So you have to pick a couple of key issues and focus on those in terms of your messaging. And what I want to do as much as possible is focus on the positives. Focus on what are those big changes that we can actually put in place that'll make American lives better so that we don't go back to a situation like this where too many people are worried about who can I blame for the things that are wrong in my life? Instead, they have the opportunity to say, wow, things are actually getting better. So to me, that means fighting for things like universal health care in this country. Now, I had government-provided healthcare for the entirety of my adult life. And was it perfect? Absolutely not. But when bad things happen, like when I had a rare form of abdominal cancer several years ago, all I had to think about was getting better. There was no worry about a surprise bill or a medical bankruptcy that might be in the future for my family. We can do that for everyone. And it's the people telling us no, that we can't. are the ones profiting from the system as it exists today. So beyond the universal healthcare, that also means making sure that our billionaires and the hyper rich investor class among us are actually putting back into the system at least a fraction of what they've extracted from us that was built on our public infrastructure, our public education that allowed their businesses to thrive. So tax the rich, universal healthcare, and make sure that we do everything possible. to do campaign finance reform and get corporate money out of politics so that anyone can think about running for office. Because me, as a retired 06, I felt like I was the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder that could even think about doing this, given the massive sums of money that are required and the fact that I still have health care provided as a retiree, that I could do this and be unemployed for a year trying to earn the trust of 800,000 Virginians. It shouldn't be that case. More people should have the opportunity to run for office. And if they do, hopefully we can do those big things and make people's lives better and they worry less about who's the source of my problem. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Wow. Well, I hope that you were getting lots of affirmations from those along the trail for standing up and advocating, because that's really ⁓ kind of what seems to be the mission, running theme here, is that you are looking for solutions to take us to the next level, whether it's to space or it's here in politics. ⁓ That's your whole focus. is reaching for the stars, is for expanding and imagining what else is possible. And for folks like Pete Hegseth, they don't like that. don't like creativity, actually. It's already been defined in a book thousands of years ago, and ⁓ no one else need to apply. And this sort of rhetoric has been very harmful for so many. ⁓ If you don't mind, can you talk a little bit about how either the, how you feel about the rhetoric coming out in the last year from the Pentagon and what have you heard or that has really. Bree Fram: You bring up my favorite third rate fitness influencer, Pete Hexeth. ⁓ There is no man with more hypocrisy and, ⁓ I would just idiocy packed into a single package. When he talks about recently ending the flu vaccine as a readiness issue, like you are nuts. Leigh/@followtheleighder: third rate. Bree Fram: This is actually how we keep people safe. And when you go back and forth on these ridiculous things that are actually readiness multipliers, ⁓ it drives me crazy. And so his ability to drive and direct what is, if not already there in the data, a looming retention crisis with all his attacks on women, with his attacks on senior officers that aren't cisgender white men, removing them from the promotion list or firing them outright. It is wild to think about how he is trying to define who belongs in the military. And that is a Christian nationalist white person and white man in the vast majority of circumstances. So it is really hard to work on that, but I do love some of the language he uses. I will admit when he got up on stage and in front of the generals, and referred to people like me as toxic identity garbage. I was like, Pete, that is a great band name. Why didn't I think of that? If I was a grunge band in the 90s, I would have been part of toxic identity garbage. But it's so over the top when, you know, he also made statements when he was, and I will quote him exactly here, no more dudes in dresses, we're done with that shit. I was like, hey, Pete. You know what I wore to work every day? My uniform. So it's just wild, it's outlandish, it is filled with lies, it is directing war crimes, it is everything that we should be looking at and abhorring about. How did we get to this point where we are operating as a bully on the international stage, we are destroying our alliances? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Alright. Bree Fram: We are destroying all that we put into the world that returned back to us as goodness. If there is one man that I have less regard for in this administration than the president, it is Pete Hexsett. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I thought about that too. Like, what if I know that there were ⁓ calls for impeachment recently and I was like, what happens? Like, and I'm scared he'll get the, ⁓ the Christy gnome or, you know, he'll eventually get fired and move over to some corporate position. Like he'll, and it's just so frustrating. I don't know what will happen except that I hope accountability will happen. ⁓ But yeah, this. The whole thing is such a talk about toxic identity garbage. They're the toxic identity garbage. They're the toxic garbage. Well, I have been just in awe this whole conversation. You have shared so much and you're so well spoken. You've talked about your family, your service, what it was like to ⁓ navigate your transgender service and the military bureaucracy throughout. shared a little bit about Sparta and running for office. You know, as we look ahead, I know that running for office is what you're doing, but what else do you see? Are you optimistic? Are you hopeful? What are some things that you would like to leave us as listeners? Bree Fram: ⁓ I am hopeful. ⁓ And the reason I'm hopeful is that I look at my kids or I look at their generation where these identity issues just aren't a thing. They have friends everywhere, no matter what their background is, and they talk openly about sexuality, about gender identity, about who they are, and they come together in such a way where They're gonna do incredible things. And if we get through this time that we are in now and give them the opportunity to lead in 10, 20, 30 years, they're gonna change the planet in so many incredible ways that there isn't going to be folks who are hated because of who they are. We can and must get there, but it's doing the work now. It goes back to... Yeah, the moral arc of the universe will bend towards justice, but only if we do the work. And I make the joke that, you in the stress of all that, of getting kicked out ⁓ and the work, I put on a few pounds and I say, great, that's fine. Cause that adds a little more to the gravity of the situation as I hang from that moral arc. ⁓ So, but it is about doing that work ⁓ today to talk about those issues that will actually move the ball forward for all Americans. so that we have a chance to thrive, to pursue life, liberty, and happiness in a way that works for us ⁓ and isn't putting any burden, any restriction on someone else's path to that. We can do that. We have done that. But we just have to fight to make that part of who we are again. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So, I'll breathe. Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been such a treat. As mentioned, thank you for your service to our military and to our Space Force and for running for office for Virginia District 11 Congress folks. Don't forget to get out and vote. Can you tell people where they can follow and learn more or donate to your campaign? Bree Fram: Yeah, you can follow us on all the social medias or find our website teambree.com. You can make donations there. That is the most important thing that helps any campaign. Or sign up to volunteer. We'd love to have people be part of this. But yeah, please follow along every social media platform. Share our content. I think I have one coming out about a third-rate fitness influencer himself just tonight. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us, Folks, as mentioned, that was Bri Fram, retired US Space Force Colonel, 23 years in the service, forced into retirement as an 06 after decades of serving aerospace engineering rocket scientist. Thank you for your service and thank you listeners for your time this. I guess afternoon. I don't know what time you listen into it, but thank you. Guys, this has been another episode of Follow the Leader. Let me know what you thought of this episode in the comments. Don't forget to like, follow, and subscribe. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.