Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Do Pop Stars Define Feminism? with Audra Heinrichs

Transcript

Do Pop Stars Define Feminism? with Audra Heinrichs · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
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  Speaker 1: and I have conversations.
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  Speaker 2: That put a new spin on pretty. This is pretty smart.
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  Speaker 3: Hello.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: I always want to say happy Thursday, but I feel
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  Speaker 1: like there are thousands of you that don't listen on
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  Speaker 1: a Thursday.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna say hello.
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  Speaker 1: And whatever day you're listening on, I hope you're having
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  Speaker 1: a bright, beautiful day. And if for some reason you're not,
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  Speaker 1: because that happens, I hope this brightens your day.
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  Speaker 2: I'm in New York.
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  Speaker 1: Right now and I'm covering the Tribeca Festival, which used
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  Speaker 1: to be called the Tribeca Film Festival, but they dropped
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  Speaker 1: the film because they cover so much outside of film.
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  Speaker 1: Now they cover TV series and shorts and podcasts and
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  Speaker 1: even live musical performances, so now it is just try
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  Speaker 1: beca festival. And fun fact, Robert de Niro started Tribeca
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  Speaker 1: last year. I actually got to meet him and talk
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  Speaker 1: with him. He was exactly what you would expect him
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  Speaker 1: to be. He was very real, very authentic, and very Italian.
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  Speaker 1: So everything is about to start, but I tacked on
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  Speaker 1: a few days in New York, one to film episodes
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  Speaker 1: of Pretty Smart with some New York based people that
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  Speaker 1: I'm excited about, and then also just to take like
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  Speaker 1: a day or two to enjoy the city. I'm staying
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  Speaker 1: on the Lower East Side, which has been really fun
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  Speaker 1: because you're kind of like in the thick of things.
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  Speaker 1: And the timing has been amazing because I filmed an
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  Speaker 1: episode of First Look, which is NBC's travel show, and
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  Speaker 1: it's now playing in all of the cabs here, so
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  Speaker 1: I had all my friends sending me photos and people
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  Speaker 1: were tagging me on Instagram, and then I got into
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  Speaker 1: a cab last night and I saw it. Also, of course,
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  Speaker 1: now that I'm trying to record this intro hotel, doors
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  Speaker 1: are slamming and everybody's yelling in the hallway. I guess
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  Speaker 1: that's my cue to just jump into it, right. It
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  Speaker 1: actually came about because of a recent event. Tina Turner
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  Speaker 1: passed away about two weeks ago now, and I saw
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  Speaker 1: an Instagram video of Beyonce doing a tribute to her
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  Speaker 1: on tour, and she said, without Tina Turner, there is
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  Speaker 1: no me.
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  Speaker 4: I've never in my life saw a woman so powerful,
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  Speaker 4: so fearless, so fabulous and those legs.
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  Speaker 1: And then I thought of Madonna's Instagram posts from October
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  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember.
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  Speaker 1: It got picked up in all of the entertainment news
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  Speaker 1: outlets because she was spitting some truth. She said, I
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  Speaker 1: spent years being interviewed by narrow minded people who tried
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  Speaker 1: to shame me for empowering myself as a woman. I
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  Speaker 1: was called a whore, a witch, a heretic, and the devil.
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  Speaker 1: And now Cardi B Can sing about her wop, and
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  Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian can grace the cover of any magazine with
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  Speaker 1: her naked ass, and Miley Cyrus can come in like
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  Speaker 1: a wrecking ball.
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  Speaker 2: You're welcome, bitches.
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  Speaker 1: So sure, we can take Beyonce's tribute or Madonna's post
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  Speaker 1: at phase value, or we can.
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  Speaker 2: Really analyze the meaning behind both of their words.
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  Speaker 1: What I was hearing from both of them in very
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  Speaker 1: different ways, is that we stand on the shoulders of
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  Speaker 1: the women that came before us. And that's the thing
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  Speaker 1: about feminism or any social movement. Really, women of one
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  Speaker 1: generation pushed the culture ball forward. The women of the
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  Speaker 1: next generation reaped the benefits, but oftentimes don't even really
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  Speaker 1: know the sacrifice it took, and then see the new
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  Speaker 1: ills of society and hopefully the cycle continues. So for us,
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  Speaker 1: hopefully we're pushing the culture ball forward and the next
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  Speaker 1: generation will take us for granted too. But I guess
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  Speaker 1: I'm staring away from today's topic a little bit. All
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  Speaker 1: of this talk about women in music got me thinking
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  Speaker 1: each generation had their own pop stars, and in some way,
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  Speaker 1: those pop stars defined and reflected what it meant to
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  Speaker 1: be a woman of that time. The women's liberation movement
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  Speaker 1: of the nineteen sixties and seventies found a voice in music.
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  Speaker 1: Think about artists like Aretha Franklin, Helen Reddy, and Joni Mitchell.
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  Speaker 1: They created songs that highlighted women's empowerment, gender equality, and
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  Speaker 1: even reproductive rights.
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  Speaker 2: Where do you think this feminist anthem came from?
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  Speaker 1: It came from demanding equal rights. And then skip thirty
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  Speaker 1: five years and we got Can't Hold Us Down by
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  Speaker 1: Christina Aguilera featuring Little Kim Shut Up.
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  Speaker 5: Something. I just can't see the.
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  Speaker 2: Guy have to the girls that he's the man. He
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  Speaker 2: can even give.
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  Speaker 5: Us some head of sex or rule the world?
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  Speaker 2: Do the same season?
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  Speaker 1: Well, that song was all about double standards, sexism, misogyny,
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  Speaker 1: calling for women to assert themselves and be heard and
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  Speaker 1: break down societal barriers.
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  Speaker 2: Or think about Roar by Katie Perry.
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  Speaker 1: Sure it was just a pop smash, but the message
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  Speaker 1: behind it was empowering women. It was saying, find your voice,
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  Speaker 1: be confident, stand up for yourself. Think about the powerful
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  Speaker 1: lyrics for Beyonce's unapologetic anthem Flawless.
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  Speaker 6: We teach girls to shrink for themselves, to make themselves smaller.
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  Speaker 6: We say to girls, you can have ambition, but not
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  Speaker 6: too much. You should aim to be successful, but not
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  Speaker 6: so successful, otherwise you would threaten the man feminist, a
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  Speaker 6: person who believes in the social, political, and economic equality
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  Speaker 6: of the sexist sexience.
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  Speaker 7: You wake up poused up right around in it.
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  Speaker 1: That song is just something. It's so beautiful and so
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  Speaker 1: well done. So from the iconic anthems of the past
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  Speaker 1: to the boundary pushing hits of today, pop stars have
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  Speaker 1: fearlessly embraced feminism as a driving force behind their art.
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  Speaker 1: Through their music, they've given a voice to the experiences,
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  Speaker 1: the struggles, the triumphs of women all over the world,
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  Speaker 1: and I think their lyrics have ignited conversations and shattered
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  Speaker 1: stereotypes and honestly sparked movements, making a lasting impact on
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  Speaker 1: generations of listeners.
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  Speaker 2: And I think the impact.
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  Speaker 1: Of pop stars on feminism extends far beyond music.
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  Speaker 2: How about their image?
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  Speaker 1: What is what they wear, how they do their makeup,
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  Speaker 1: how they dance impact the women of the time.
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  Speaker 2: How about their resilience and life experiences.
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  Speaker 1: My mind immediately goes back to Tina Turner and her
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  Speaker 1: experience with domestic abuse with Ike Turner. That awful situation
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  Speaker 1: and her ultimate resilience as well put a face to
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  Speaker 1: something that was not even being spoken.
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  Speaker 2: About in culture at the time.
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  Speaker 1: Or more recently, think about Taylor Swift's sexual assault trial.
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  Speaker 1: Into that seventeen she countersued a radio DJ who groped
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  Speaker 1: her during a meet and greet for a symbolic one dollar,
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  Speaker 1: and her testimony shed light on the importance of believing
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  Speaker 1: survivors and spark discussions about consent and victim blaming, and
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  Speaker 1: regardless of your feelings on Taylor, seeing a young woman
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  Speaker 1: stand her ground was really empowering in itself. So that
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  Speaker 1: brings me to another part of the discussion today. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: this is a windy one. Is it a requirement to
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  Speaker 1: be a feminist if you're a pop star.
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  Speaker 2: Have our pop stars.
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  Speaker 1: Even commodified feminism? And if so, are we okay with that?
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  Speaker 1: There's so much to get into, and today we're going
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  Speaker 1: to explore the stories of pop stars who have left
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  Speaker 1: an indelible mark on women and feminism. We're diving into
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  Speaker 1: their groundbreaking songs, their personal journeys, and the cultural shifts
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  Speaker 1: they've inspired. We are going through the eras Diana ross Cher, Madonna,
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  Speaker 1: Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, The Spice Girls, Britney Spears,
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  Speaker 1: Christina Aguilera, Pink Beyonce, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, Katie Perry,
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  Speaker 1: Ariana Grande, Selena Gomez, Lizzo, Dua Lipa, Billie Eilish, Who
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  Speaker 1: if I'm out of breath and if I left any out,
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  Speaker 1: please groast me because I have deserved it.
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  Speaker 2: Can't miss a pop.
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  Speaker 1: Star come on here to break it all down? Is
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  Speaker 1: Adre Heinrix, a writer and reporter. She specializes in feature
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  Speaker 1: writing about politics, entertainment, and cultural moments and movements. Her
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  Speaker 1: work's been published in Rolling Stone, The Washington Post, Harper's Bizarre,
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  Speaker 1: l Teen, Vogue, Cosmopolitan, Glamour, them.
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  Speaker 2: The list goes on.
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  Speaker 1: She holds an MA in American Journalism from NYU and
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  Speaker 1: a BA in English Literature and Women's Gender and Sexuality
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  Speaker 1: Studies from the Ohio State University. And in addition to
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  Speaker 1: her writing career, she's also amassed years of experience as
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  Speaker 1: a part time political organizer, co founding the New York
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  Speaker 1: City chapter of the Women's March in twenty seventeen. And
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  Speaker 1: you all know writers are my pop stars. So Adre
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  Speaker 1: really is a pop star in my eye. I've followed
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  Speaker 1: her writing for years, and I really appreciate her perspective. So,
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  Speaker 1: whether you're a dedicated fan of anyone I listed earlier,
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  Speaker 1: or just simply curious about the intersection of pop music
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  Speaker 1: and feminism, let's explore some of the artists whose voices
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  Speaker 1: have reshaped the world. Okay, Adra, you are a journalist
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  Speaker 1: who's writing I have followed for a long time, and
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  Speaker 1: your words are so incisive. I love the way that
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  Speaker 1: you look at pop culture. If you had to describe
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  Speaker 1: your lens, what would you say?
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  Speaker 8: It is critical, really cynical, but it comes find it cynical?
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  Speaker 9: Really?
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  Speaker 6: No?
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  Speaker 9: Okay, good?
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  Speaker 2: I find it culturally critical.
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  Speaker 9: Yeah, I think criticism comes from and maybe this is
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  Speaker 9: maybe this is showing that I need to go to therapy.
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  Speaker 9: But I think criticism comes from a place of deep love.
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  Speaker 9: I love pop music, I love pop culture. I think,
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  Speaker 9: for as long as I can remember, both have played
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  Speaker 9: such a role, a meaningful role in my life and
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  Speaker 9: in my happiness and in my sanity in a lot
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  Speaker 9: of ways, and in my growth as an individual. So
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  Speaker 9: when I write about it and I'm critical, it's not
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  Speaker 9: because I want to be mean for the hell of it.
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  Speaker 9: It's because I know that well, I know what it's
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  Speaker 9: meant to me. I know what it's what it meant
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  Speaker 9: to me as a young person. And if I can,
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  Speaker 9: through my own criticism of it, make someone else go, yeah,
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  Speaker 9: that's exactly how I feel, then I'm doing my job right.
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  Speaker 9: Or if I can challenge someone to think differently and interrogate,
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  Speaker 9: you know, their own biases and feelings about it, then
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  Speaker 9: I'm doing my job right.
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  Speaker 1: You were to look back and your upbringing, what do
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  Speaker 1: you think has given you that critical lens?
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  Speaker 9: So many things, I would say my family in one way, well,
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  Speaker 9: I grew up with older siblings, so I was exposed
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  Speaker 9: to a lot of things that kids my age, weren't
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  Speaker 9: I remember vividly watching MTV VH one, you know, all
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  Speaker 9: of that stuff, engaging with all of that. When I
• 11:25
  Speaker 9: was a really young young person, we're talking like four
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  Speaker 9: years old. My family exposed me to it, and I
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  Speaker 9: come from a family where we talk about things at nauseum,
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  Speaker 9: So you know, my brother always had an opinion, my
• 11:42
  Speaker 9: sister always had an opinion, My parents always had an opinion.
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  Speaker 9: But in a way that again was critical, but not exclusionary.
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  Speaker 9: It wasn't binary, It was how did that make you feel?
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  Speaker 9: What do you make of that? Why? You know, we
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  Speaker 9: always asked big questions from the time I was young,
• 12:00
  Speaker 9: and then of course as I grew and you know,
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  Speaker 9: accumulated a family of friends of all identities and backgrounds
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  Speaker 9: and socioeconomic statuses, my worldview broadened even more. And it
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  Speaker 9: was like, I want to just spend my life interrogating
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  Speaker 9: pop culture and how it makes me feel and how
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  Speaker 9: it impacts people's lives in my life.
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  Speaker 1: So every great writer I know grows up reading other writing, right, Like,
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  Speaker 1: I imagine you on.
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  Speaker 2: Your bed reading all.
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  Speaker 1: The magazines, just like over consuming pop culture, reading books,
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  Speaker 1: And I imagine it because I was the same like,
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  Speaker 1: I think people that love pop culture are just kind
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  Speaker 1: of like ferocious about it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what does it feel like to be a prominent
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  Speaker 2: pop culture voice in the zeitgeist?
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  Speaker 7: Now?
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  Speaker 9: I don't know if I'm prominent. I think you might
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  Speaker 9: be being kind.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not.
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  Speaker 5: I'm not.
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  Speaker 9: I think you might be being really kind. But I think, again,
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  Speaker 9: it feels like a tremendous honor because I like to
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  Speaker 9: imagine young people like me engaging with what I write
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  Speaker 9: and engaging with my opinion, and whether or not they're
• 13:17
  Speaker 9: agreeing with it, just the fact that they're thinking about
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  Speaker 9: it at all just feels beyond words for me.
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  Speaker 2: Did you ever have the dream of being a pop star?
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  Speaker 9: Absolutely? If only I had a shred of talent, I mean, truly,
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  Speaker 9: the world would never be the same if I could
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  Speaker 9: just sing. There's a funny story my mom loves to tell.
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  Speaker 9: I would just sing at the top of my lungs.
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  Speaker 9: You know, Janet Jackson, Jennifer Lopez, Britney Spears, Spice Girls,
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  Speaker 9: you know, across the spectrum, Aliyah. And one day my
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  Speaker 9: parents probably were just so annoyed with me that I
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  Speaker 9: went downstairs and my mom was like, all right, so
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  Speaker 9: I need to tell you something. And I was like okay,
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  Speaker 9: and she was like, I know that you love music
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  Speaker 9: and we love that, but you're not a singer. You're
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  Speaker 9: many things, but you're not a singer.
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  Speaker 3: Oh you have a good mom.
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  Speaker 2: She told you.
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  Speaker 9: She did, tell me she did. And again criticism coming
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  Speaker 9: from a.
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  Speaker 2: Place of love, right, My mom tried to tell me
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  Speaker 2: the same thing. But I did it. Anyways, Good for you.
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  Speaker 9: Yes, you were so you went to you, you were
• 14:32
  Speaker 9: in choir. Yeah, you pursued it.
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  Speaker 2: I loved it.
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  Speaker 1: Before we jump into everything, I kind of want to
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  Speaker 1: start by recognizing that we're not talking about men and masculinity,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: and that would never even be a topic to cover, right, never,
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  Speaker 1: So there's already some bias inherently that we're even covering
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  Speaker 1: this topic.
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  Speaker 2: Think maybe bias isn't the right word.
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  Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean in terms of well, in terms of
• 15:06
  Speaker 9: what we're talking about. I mean we're talking about pop music,
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  Speaker 9: and for me, I mean when you think of pop music,
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  Speaker 9: you think of women period. Not saying that men can't
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  Speaker 9: be great pop stars or non binary folks can't be
• 15:22
  Speaker 9: great pop stars. I would I love to see it,
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  Speaker 9: but I think so much of the pioneers are women.
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  Speaker 2: I think so too. And I also the reason I
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: really wanted to cover.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: This is I think that as public figures, our pop
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: stars have helped to define and honestly perform in a
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: lot of ways, what it means to be a woman
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: at any given time. I'm not sure if they set
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: the trend and the women of that generation follow, or
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: if they're a mirror.
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  Speaker 2: To the women of that generation. I think maybe a
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: little bit of both.
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  Speaker 9: I think it's both, I really do. I think, you know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 9: there's such a you can find so many through lines
• 16:05
  Speaker 9: from women of the seventies, the eighties, the nineties. It
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  Speaker 9: just it all carries through, and there's so many modern
• 16:13
  Speaker 9: examples today that you can again see a clear through
• 16:17
  Speaker 9: line too. Oh, they took influence from here, they took
• 16:20
  Speaker 9: inspiration from this person. They're you know, they're sort of
• 16:25
  Speaker 9: borrowing from that person and making it their own. I
• 16:28
  Speaker 9: think I think there's there's definitely room for both.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I think so I kind of wanted to start with
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: what I think are some of the first pop stars.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Although you and I didn't live through those eras, so
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: we researched because we're all journalists. But it's still it's
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: different when you've lived through it. So we're going to
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: kind of like breathe over some of the first pop
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  Speaker 1: stars and then really heavily get into the ones that
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: we lived through.
• 16:53
  Speaker 9: Yeah, sounds great, Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Diana Ross and Chaer I think, and Tina Turner and
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: some ways was a pop star in my mind were
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: some of the first female pop stars.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 9: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: What do you think of when you think of Shared?
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: I take that.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Because to me, so much of it was her style
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: and her looks. Obviously, Kim Kardashian has famously taken a
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: lot of inspiration from her.
• 17:52
  Speaker 9: I think a lot of people have taken inspiration from Share.
• 17:55
  Speaker 9: I take inspiration from Share with her. I think her voice.
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  Speaker 9: It was her voice that was so distinctive and what
• 18:03
  Speaker 9: people really remembered, for better or for worse. Obviously, you know,
• 18:06
  Speaker 9: so so many folks can impersonate her and maybe maybe
• 18:09
  Speaker 9: poke fun at her very distinctive voice. But the point
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  Speaker 9: is is that it's hers, it's memorable. And then, of course,
• 18:16
  Speaker 9: you know her style. You look back at the sartorial
• 18:19
  Speaker 9: statements that she made from you know, the Sonny and
• 18:22
  Speaker 9: Share Show to her solo career, and all of them
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  Speaker 9: are are so iconic and have been, you know, replicated
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  Speaker 9: in so many ways by so many different people, and
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  Speaker 9: I think will forever.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Tina Turner to me was so much about her dance moves,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: love but.
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: A second love? Who needs a hoden Hogny brother basing you.
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: I'm at de confused when you close.
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  Speaker 4: To me, give that change of little face. I've read
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: in some place. I've got calls to food. That's a name, body,
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  Speaker 4: there's a.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: Whatever do it of me?
• 19:24
  Speaker 8: What?
• 19:28
  Speaker 9: Right?
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Like you just think about everybody.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Her legs are famous, and her costumes I think are
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: famous to yes.
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  Speaker 9: Watching her as a performer as well, I mean she
• 19:40
  Speaker 9: she sweat like, she puts everything into those performances, and
• 19:45
  Speaker 9: and when you think about the energy that she exerted
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  Speaker 9: and the level of which she was performing at all times,
• 19:53
  Speaker 9: it's really remarkable how her vocals coupled with those insane,
• 19:59
  Speaker 9: you know, dance moves and and just the level of
• 20:02
  Speaker 9: artistry was so unique to her.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm glad you brought that up, because I the
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: next question I wanted to ask was how do you
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: think that those women either helped or detracted or just
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: represented feminism of that era?
• 20:18
  Speaker 9: You know, Diana Ross and Tina Turner especially were you know,
• 20:23
  Speaker 9: such trailblazers in terms of pop music for black women
• 20:27
  Speaker 9: and creating that representation and laying that groundwork.
• 20:48
  Speaker 10: This knew me coming up and I.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: And I again, I'm completely positive. I think this time around,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it. You never knew it. Oh, they
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: get through.
• 21:06
  Speaker 9: They were bold, they were you know, unapologetic. They were
• 21:11
  Speaker 9: again performers that weren't afraid to really lay it all
• 21:15
  Speaker 9: out there, to sweat, to put their everything into something,
• 21:20
  Speaker 9: and they weren't concerned so much about it. I mean,
• 21:22
  Speaker 9: obviously their their appearance and their their costumes and everything
• 21:25
  Speaker 9: were remarkable, but they weren't afraid to marry that with
• 21:32
  Speaker 9: their artistry, with their vocals, with everything.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I think with Tina Turner, there was her incident with
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: like the domestic violence that yes, really like to this
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: day is a punchline in many jokes about domestic violence. Yes,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I think it was one of the first times, at
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: least in my memory. And if there's women who have
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: lived through that generation that are listening, please correct me
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. But in my memory, that was really
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: the first public incident of domestic violence in a very
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: pop culture sort of way.
• 22:07
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I think if it's not the first, it's one
• 22:10
  Speaker 9: of the first for sure. But what's interesting about that
• 22:14
  Speaker 9: is when you think about, at least when I think
• 22:17
  Speaker 9: as a you know, millennial, when I think about the
• 22:20
  Speaker 9: legacy of Tina Turner, I don't think about that. I
• 22:24
  Speaker 9: think about her contributions, her artistry, she is. I hesitate
• 22:30
  Speaker 9: to even let that abuse define who she is as
• 22:35
  Speaker 9: a performer and as a person, even though, of course,
• 22:39
  Speaker 9: you know, being so candid and having that play out
• 22:41
  Speaker 9: so publicly, certainly people and women could glean inspiration, could
• 22:48
  Speaker 9: glean a sense of closeness and intimacy with her. Because
• 22:52
  Speaker 9: it is such a pervasive issue, it does marvel lives
• 22:55
  Speaker 9: and affects the lives of so many women.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I think that all of these women made way for
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Madonna in my eyes, like is the first major feminist
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: pop star.
• 23:28
  Speaker 9: For that time. You could start to, as a performer
• 23:33
  Speaker 9: as an artist, say, you know, use the F word,
• 23:37
  Speaker 9: you know I'm a feminist or what have you. I
• 23:39
  Speaker 9: don't think in previous generations or previous years, even if
• 23:44
  Speaker 9: you couldn't overtlyast say it or make it a part
• 23:46
  Speaker 9: of your brand, you could certainly embody it. I think
• 23:48
  Speaker 9: Diana Ross, Tina Turner, Dolly Parton, but Madonna, for sure.
• 23:52
  Speaker 9: I mean she she was so brazen about so many
• 23:58
  Speaker 9: things it even surpassed, you know, being a feminist. She
• 24:02
  Speaker 9: was extremely vocal about queer culture, about HIV and AIDS.
• 24:08
  Speaker 9: She wasn't afraid to say things out loud.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: I think for sure, Well, you touched on what I
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: think she did so well, which is she pushed up
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: against the too muchness that women face, too brash, too sexual,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: too ambitious, too talkative. She wasn't going to let anybody
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: tell her she was too much of anything.
• 24:28
  Speaker 9: She was Madonna, yes, absolutely, and I think you know,
• 24:33
  Speaker 9: obviously culturally we were at a different time in the
• 24:36
  Speaker 9: eighties than we were in the seventies, and we were
• 24:38
  Speaker 9: in the sixties and so on and so forth. She
• 24:41
  Speaker 9: was the star who met the moment.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: You know what's.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Crazy is I was looking up if Madonna was her
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: birth name, because so much of Madonna is the virgin
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: and the whore, which is really well known as the
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Madonna in the Horror Complex. Yes, missus, she was born
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Madonna Louise Chaconi. And I was just thinking it was
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: almost like she was born to push up against this.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I think she came during a time where sexual liberation
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: was happening in our country and she pushed it way further.
• 25:44
  Speaker 9: Yes, most definitely to that end, with queer culture especially.
• 25:47
  Speaker 9: I mean, obviously much has been said about did she
• 25:51
  Speaker 9: appreciate and uplift queer culture or did she appropriate it?
• 25:54
  Speaker 9: And I think that's a needful conversation to have.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Oh I've never heard that. That's interesting.
• 26:00
  Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, I mean, for me, pop music is and
• 26:04
  Speaker 9: has always been queer. There's always been been, you know,
• 26:08
  Speaker 9: queer subtext rooting all of it. And for her to
• 26:15
  Speaker 9: come at the time that she did, again, she was
• 26:17
  Speaker 9: the star for the moment, and so she got to
• 26:19
  Speaker 9: be the arbiter of a lot of the messages, a
• 26:24
  Speaker 9: lot of the issues, a lot of the joy that
• 26:29
  Speaker 9: was always known and has always been known within queer culture.
• 26:34
  Speaker 9: So yeah, it depends on who you'd ask, right, I
• 26:36
  Speaker 9: think there are a lot of folks who feel like
• 26:38
  Speaker 9: it was appropriation and that she wasn't necessarily giving queer
• 26:43
  Speaker 9: folks their flowers. But you know, to that end, there
• 26:47
  Speaker 9: are some people who would say, I learned about my
• 26:50
  Speaker 9: introduction to queer culture was through Madonna. So I think,
• 26:54
  Speaker 9: you know, that's that's the tricky part about being a public,
• 26:58
  Speaker 9: mainstream figure, right, I mean, or you're sort of opening
• 27:01
  Speaker 9: the door, or you should be opening the door to
• 27:04
  Speaker 9: cultures and ideas and issues that the mainstream wasn't talking about.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: I think that there's this Madonna and the horror complex
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: that we see play out with the pop stars a
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: generation kind of right after Madonna. So I saw it
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: with TLC. I really saw it with Janet Jackson.
• 27:26
  Speaker 10: Haven't funny you smunn back at me? Understandable? I love
• 27:36
  Speaker 10: you having sexy? Yes?
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: Nothing.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: People were obsessed with her innocence.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Was she a virgin? Wasn't she? And I saw her documentary.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: She felt a lot of pressure in that.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: And I think that that in a lot of ways
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: holds a mirror up to where we were culturally, because
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: as much much work as Madonna tried to do as
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: a feminist pop star, the world was still obsessed with
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: women being innocent and not really having ownership over their sexuality.
• 28:14
  Speaker 9: Yes, and it's nuanced, right because I mean, obviously, as
• 28:18
  Speaker 9: you said, Madonna tried to sort of blow the door open,
• 28:22
  Speaker 9: but at the same time, you know, you factor in
• 28:25
  Speaker 9: you know race as well. That's a white woman blowing
• 28:28
  Speaker 9: open the door, and it's different for black women. Black
• 28:33
  Speaker 9: women are held to a different standard, you know, women
• 28:35
  Speaker 9: of color generally are held to a different standard.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: When you think of Janet and her impact on culture
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: specifically having to do with women, what do you think
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: of Well, I think.
• 28:47
  Speaker 9: It's really telling that Janet is now in her fifties,
• 28:53
  Speaker 9: this is a grown woman. And the last thing, the
• 28:56
  Speaker 9: last major news story that I saw in terms of
• 29:00
  Speaker 9: obviously looking and doing my research through the lens of
• 29:03
  Speaker 9: how she's treated sexuality wise, And one of the last
• 29:08
  Speaker 9: news stories that I saw was a family member of hers,
• 29:11
  Speaker 9: a male family member of hers, who is younger than her,
• 29:14
  Speaker 9: criticizing how she's made, you know, being her openness with
• 29:20
  Speaker 9: sexuality being a part of her music, being a part
• 29:23
  Speaker 9: of her brand. And it was just so funny to
• 29:25
  Speaker 9: me that we're still you know, people are still men
• 29:28
  Speaker 9: are still thinking in those terms. You know, I think
• 29:33
  Speaker 9: she is still sort of held to a standard as
• 29:39
  Speaker 9: a lot of women are in that way as well.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I think that they they've all had to walk this
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: line between progress and exploitation, sexualization and objectification. It's a
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: really thin line, And I think pop stars have a
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: really hard time and when I say hard time, they
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: have a hard time with a because it's it's an
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: impossible line to.
• 30:02
  Speaker 9: Walk, yes, and you have to ask yourself. I think
• 30:07
  Speaker 9: as a young person growing up, I never interrogated it.
• 30:10
  Speaker 9: But of course now I'm twenty nine and I look
• 30:13
  Speaker 9: at pop women in pop across the spectrum, and I
• 30:17
  Speaker 9: think to myself, are these women sexually empowered? Are they
• 30:21
  Speaker 9: making the decisions? Are they driving what we're seeing? Or
• 30:25
  Speaker 9: is it men in boardrooms deciding how to market these women?
• 30:29
  Speaker 9: Is it men in these boardrooms deciding what songs they're
• 30:32
  Speaker 9: going to sing? Is it men in studios deciding what
• 30:35
  Speaker 9: songs they're going to sing and how they're going to
• 30:37
  Speaker 9: present themselves. So I think for us as listeners and
• 30:41
  Speaker 9: as consumers, we have to think about that and sit
• 30:45
  Speaker 9: with that. I mean, there's so much joy to be
• 30:48
  Speaker 9: had and taken. And I feel like if their music
• 30:52
  Speaker 9: is opening the door for the sexual liberation of women
• 30:55
  Speaker 9: and you know, young women in particular, great, But you
• 30:59
  Speaker 9: do you know, it is a question you have to
• 31:02
  Speaker 9: ask yourself is this coming from them or someone else?
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Well, we're going to get into it later.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I think Miley Cyrus actually has an interesting impact on that.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: But to try and stay chronologically, we have Britney Spears,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Christina Aguilera, and the Pink Era, which very famously all
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: have come out and said it was men in boardrooms
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: and that felt so manufactured, and they all kind of
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: had their moment of trying to break free. Christina did
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: it with Dirty Pink, did it with her second album,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and has since then blown the lid off of it
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: at every single album. Brittany's obviously a different case. But
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: this is the first time that I think in my memory,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: we see women in media pitted against each other.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: It's not the first time it's happened.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I know it definitely happened generations above us, but it's
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: my first memory of it. Jessica Simpson and Christina, who's hotter,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: who's thinner, who's more beautiful, who has a better voice.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: It was always hitted against each other.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: You know, I really was curious to hear your thoughts
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: on this because I see it play out in media
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: right now with Haley Bieber and Selena Gomez, and I
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: can't believe with all of the work that we've done
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: is in society that I'm seeing it play out again
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: in the exact same way.
• 32:29
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I think it's human nature. Sadly, I'm an old
• 32:33
  Speaker 9: enough person to remember really the heyday of like sensational lit,
• 32:38
  Speaker 9: tabloid culture, writing to grocery store and seeing nothing but
• 32:43
  Speaker 9: headlines again where it was, you know, a split photo
• 32:46
  Speaker 9: of two women against each other, you know who's thinner,
• 32:51
  Speaker 9: who's dating who, who's more famous. Now I think we've
• 32:56
  Speaker 9: moved a little bit, but I think mostly the medium
• 32:59
  Speaker 9: has just changed. I mean, obviously, young women, yes, exactly,
• 33:05
  Speaker 9: young women growing up now will still go through the
• 33:07
  Speaker 9: grocery store line and see the tabloids or whatever. But
• 33:11
  Speaker 9: now it's social media. It's Twitter, it's it's TikTok, it's Instagram.
• 33:16
  Speaker 9: But it's still the same.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: So I'm thirty two, you're three years younger than me.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: We're Pink and Christina and Brittany your first pop stars
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 33:28
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: So how did their brand, their style, their everything impact you?
• 33:38
  Speaker 9: I would say I connected the most with Brittany. Okay, yeah, absolutely,
• 33:43
  Speaker 9: I feel like I maybe saw the most commonality with her.
• 33:47
  Speaker 9: I felt like she was really positive as this kind
• 33:50
  Speaker 9: of girl next door. All of her sort of lyrics
• 33:53
  Speaker 9: were really sweet.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 33:55
  Speaker 9: I was actually just listening to her first album. I
• 33:58
  Speaker 9: love the song sometimes off first album sometimes.
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: Terms to that.
• 34:20
  Speaker 8: Baby Colin the great song, and it's such a vulnerable
• 34:25
  Speaker 8: It's a really sweet, open song and that I think
• 34:29
  Speaker 8: listening to that for me was like, yeah, this is
• 34:33
  Speaker 8: this is huge In terms of why I was.
• 34:36
  Speaker 9: I connected with her the most, I would say because
• 34:38
  Speaker 9: she felt the most like someone I would know. I
• 34:42
  Speaker 9: grew up in a small town in Ohio. I remember
• 34:46
  Speaker 9: consuming v H one and MTV. I have older siblings,
• 34:49
  Speaker 9: so that was always on in the house, and I
• 34:52
  Speaker 9: remember being you know, subject to tabloids again and just
• 34:55
  Speaker 9: feeling like like Brittany. I could walk to the ice
• 34:59
  Speaker 9: cream parlor and I'd see a girl like Brittany, and
• 35:02
  Speaker 9: that was who I would aspire to become. Not that
• 35:07
  Speaker 9: Christina and Pink weren't sort of positive, well more Christina
• 35:11
  Speaker 9: positive the same way she certainly was. I mean, you
• 35:14
  Speaker 9: look at both of their kind of debut albums and
• 35:16
  Speaker 9: they're they're very innocent. But yeah, for me, it was
• 35:19
  Speaker 9: it was absolutely Brittany, and ironically enough, it was Janet
• 35:22
  Speaker 9: because I had an older sister who's fourteen years older
• 35:25
  Speaker 9: than me. I was exposed to Janet for sure, and Aaliyah.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Janet and Aliah were really important because
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: there's actually, I think a lot of racial bias in
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: pop stardom. Yes, and there's not as many women of
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: color who are considered pop stars, so to speak. And
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: that's a whole nother conversation because the music industry is
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: it's like weirdly set up. You'll hear R and B
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: singers talk about how like Robin Thick or Justin Bieber
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: get played on R and B radio, but Tank or
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Brian McKnight won't get played on Top forty. Yes, so
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff here that I think is
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: too tangential to the topic that we're trying to cover.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: But I think the fact that you were so influenced
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: by Jana and Aliah is really cool because yeah, there
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: weren't as many black pop stars.
• 36:23
  Speaker 9: And Latina as well. I mean Jennifer Lopez I would
• 36:26
  Speaker 9: consider one of my first pop stars as well.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, Beyonce, this is where the podcast takes a turn
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: because she is the most interesting pop star to talk
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: about in terms of feminism.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: For a lot of reasons.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: It's because of who she is, It's because of her branding,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: It's because of the way she transcends racial and cultural
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: lines in a way people I don't think had before.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Her reach was so large. So before I give you
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: all my thoughts, give me your thoughts. So on Beyonce.
• 37:01
  Speaker 9: First of all, Destiny's Child was another huge influence for me.
• 37:06
  Speaker 9: I loved Destney's Child. I had every album. I tried
• 37:10
  Speaker 9: to dress like Destney's Child.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Did you which one the Survivor video or like which.
• 37:16
  Speaker 9: One hundred percent you had you hit the nail on
• 37:19
  Speaker 9: the head. I remember vividly watching the Survivor video just thinking,
• 37:24
  Speaker 9: I have to have camo everything. Now. I need to
• 37:27
  Speaker 9: have camo everything, and I need to wear crap tops,
• 37:30
  Speaker 9: and I need to have parachute pants. And of course
• 37:32
  Speaker 9: I was like too young at the time, but I
• 37:35
  Speaker 9: remember that sort of becoming the ideal for me in
• 37:39
  Speaker 9: terms of femininity, in terms of womanhood. But for me,
• 37:44
  Speaker 9: I mean Beyonce going from she had the quintessential kind
• 37:49
  Speaker 9: of star story, right, I mean, you look, you look
• 37:52
  Speaker 9: at so many pop stars and they came, they started
• 37:56
  Speaker 9: in as a group. They they made their their mark
• 37:59
  Speaker 9: as the leader, so to speak of a group, and
• 38:02
  Speaker 9: then they go solo and then they just have this
• 38:05
  Speaker 9: like catastrophic rise and or fall or fall.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: A lot of them don't make it actually.
• 38:13
  Speaker 9: Or fall or both, right. I mean, like, if there's
• 38:17
  Speaker 9: anything we as consumers love, it's a rise and fall
• 38:20
  Speaker 9: story and then from a you know, fall to back
• 38:24
  Speaker 9: to rise story.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: One of the things I've seen with her that I
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: find so interesting is that she lived feminism in so
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: many ways without ever speaking about it for a significant
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: period of time. We hear it in her songs a
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: little bit like the topics, they're all very empowered.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: In a lot of ways.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: She was one of the first to have an all
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: female band. Yes, that was also I thought very empowering.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, we actually hear her talk about being
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: a feminist yes, and there's a speech at the beginning
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: of her song Flawless.
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller.
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: We say to girls, you can have ambition, but not
• 39:07
  Speaker 6: too much. You should aim to be successful, but not
• 39:10
  Speaker 6: so successful, otherwise you will threaten the man. Because I
• 39:14
  Speaker 6: am female, I'm expected to aspire to marriage, I'm expected
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: to make my life choices. Always keep it in mind
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: that marriage is the most important.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful poem that was repurposed for the song,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: and then her twenty fourteen Video Music Awards performance featured
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: a giant screens emblem is a huge emblem of feminist
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: in big capital letters, and to me, it was almost
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: like She's decided, this is part of my brand now.
• 39:47
  Speaker 9: And I think we as a culture were moving to
• 39:51
  Speaker 9: embrace feminism more and using the F word more, and
• 39:55
  Speaker 9: it was becoming part of the cultural lexicon, and for
• 39:59
  Speaker 9: her to embrace it and put it on a stage
• 40:03
  Speaker 9: lest there be any confusion at all, she was making
• 40:06
  Speaker 9: it very clear I hear you, I'm with you. I'm
• 40:10
  Speaker 9: moving in that direction too, and I'm also not afraid
• 40:13
  Speaker 9: to make that a part of my brand. And I
• 40:16
  Speaker 9: think now that could be such an eye roll. I
• 40:19
  Speaker 9: think a lot of gen Z people would go, what's
• 40:22
  Speaker 9: wrong with saying that you're a feminist. But even that
• 40:27
  Speaker 9: time ten years ago, you know, people who were public
• 40:30
  Speaker 9: figures weren't saying it.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: It was almost political, and journalists were asking it on purpose.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Lady Gaga famously said that she wasn't sure if she was.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: She later said she was Lana del Rey said it
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: just wasn't interesting to her. Yes, I really hated that answer,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: But to be fair, I don't think there was a
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: good answer for a lot of them, and men weren't
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: being asked if they were feminists, which now I'm only
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: interested in asking men that question.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I don't really want to hear women answers anymore. I
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: don't think they should be asked as much.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: But to your point with the IROL it was helpful
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: at the time, and then a few years later, like
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: we see run the World Right, and it was such
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: an it was an anthem for women, and then as
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: it played out, I think people felt like it was
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: a little bit hollow and they felt like, Okay, is.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Your brand just feminism or are you living it?
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: And then Beyonce drops lemonade.
• 41:26
  Speaker 7: They don't love you, love you. Slow down, they don't
• 41:29
  Speaker 7: love you.
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: Love you. Back up, they don't love you, love you.
• 41:34
  Speaker 7: Step down, they don't love you. Love you.
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: Can't just see.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: There's no other man above you. What a wicked way
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: you should read the girl.
• 41:41
  Speaker 7: I loved you, they don't love you, love you.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: And Mike drop because I really do feel like her
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: heart and soul comes out. I think she always lived it,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: but people now saw that she's lived it because for
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: one of the biggest stars in the world to delve
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: so deep into the triumphs and the pain of black women,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: and she like blended her personal experiences with black history,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: and I just felt like all of the image rematched
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: it as well. If anybody had any question about her feminism,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: it felt like not just a professional, branded statement, it
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: felt like a personal statement.
• 42:27
  Speaker 9: Absolutely. Everyone remembers where they were when Lemonade dropped. I
• 42:31
  Speaker 9: was a senior in college, and I remember it was
• 42:34
  Speaker 9: a Saturday night and it came on HBO, and I
• 42:37
  Speaker 9: got HBO. Specifically, I literally bought HBO just so I
• 42:41
  Speaker 9: could see the full video. And I remember the journey
• 42:45
  Speaker 9: of watching that and coming away and feeling overwhelmed by
• 42:50
  Speaker 9: how vulnerable she was, because this was one of the
• 42:54
  Speaker 9: most famous, beautiful, financially successful, secure comp women in the world.
• 43:02
  Speaker 9: Admitting that I was cheated on, I wasn't enough for someone.
• 43:08
  Speaker 9: I felt like I wasn't enough for somebody. Someone allowed
• 43:11
  Speaker 9: me to feel not just someone. My husband and the
• 43:15
  Speaker 9: father of my child made me feel like I wasn't enough,
• 43:19
  Speaker 9: and to just lay it all out there in that way,
• 43:23
  Speaker 9: and then to show forgiveness. I overcame this. I know,
• 43:28
  Speaker 9: I'm enough. We got through this. It was unlike anything
• 43:32
  Speaker 9: anyone had ever seen.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think that.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: The spotlight on the imperfection of it all was so powerful.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Like her songs were about insecurity and grief and the
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: love she has for her child, the anger and love
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: that she had for her husband.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, and so much of.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Pop stardom was perfection, the perfect body, the perfect image,
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: and she literally.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Broke the fourth wall with that absolutely.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: I think that actually changed the way popstars moved for
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: ever after that well.
• 44:12
  Speaker 9: I mean, I think, you know, songs and albums about divorce, heartbreak,
• 44:17
  Speaker 9: adultrey like are some of just the best across the board.
• 44:22
  Speaker 9: I'm a huge heartbreak song girl. I would rather hear
• 44:25
  Speaker 9: a song about someone getting their heartbroken or an album
• 44:28
  Speaker 9: about someone getting their heartbroken, than I would about falling
• 44:30
  Speaker 9: in love. I think it's more vulnerable, I think it's
• 44:33
  Speaker 9: more creative. I think it resonates deeper. So for certain,
• 44:38
  Speaker 9: her take on that, it makes me think of, you know,
• 44:41
  Speaker 9: the criticism that like Tammy Winnett got about stand by
• 44:44
  Speaker 9: Your Man, Beyonce, I was saying the same thing. And
• 44:47
  Speaker 9: I think it really challenged and pushed back on the
• 44:51
  Speaker 9: idea that you know, if someone hurts you, if someone
• 44:54
  Speaker 9: you love hurts you, or if a man hurts you
• 44:57
  Speaker 9: your week, if you stay with them. I think it
• 44:59
  Speaker 9: really challenged people to think, well, actually, you're really you're strong.
• 45:05
  Speaker 9: There's there's an inner strength that has to be there
• 45:09
  Speaker 9: to stay with someone who hurt you so publicly and
• 45:12
  Speaker 9: so profoundly.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, our next pop star is your wheelhouse.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: You are the expert in Lady Gaga.
• 45:20
  Speaker 9: I am the expert on Lady Gaga.
• 45:22
  Speaker 7: Yes, all right, just say.
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: Okay, same.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Same, you really are, Okay, So I want to start
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: with twenty ten. Gaga shows up in a meat dress,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: and she came to the awards ceremony with four former
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: servicemen and women, all of whom had been forced to
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: leave the US military because of discriminatory don't ask, don't
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: tell policies, basically like you can be gay so long
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: as you never reveal it. Yes, And she was making
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: a statement saying, if we don't stand up for what
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: we believe in, if we don't fight for our rights,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: pretty soon we aren't going to have as many rights
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: as meat on our bones.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, that was her a statement.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: So there's a whole flew of information to talk about
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: with Gaga.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna let you roll well.
• 46:23
  Speaker 9: I think a lot of people, yes, when you think
• 46:25
  Speaker 9: about Lady Gaga's emergence are coming out, you think of
• 46:28
  Speaker 9: the meat dress. But for me, my introduction to Lady
• 46:32
  Speaker 9: Gaga came with the Just Dance video and Just Dance
• 46:35
  Speaker 9: on the radio and the whole The Fame Monster album
• 46:40
  Speaker 9: because I remember clocking that it was a song not
• 46:45
  Speaker 9: having anything to do with a man. It was a
• 46:47
  Speaker 9: song about going out and having fun and having too
• 46:50
  Speaker 9: much to drink and just like dancing and leading it
• 46:53
  Speaker 9: all on the dance floor. And for me, interesting, Yeah,
• 46:56
  Speaker 9: for me, that was so compelling. It's not about a
• 46:59
  Speaker 9: love interest, It's about me having a great night.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: So like even Whitney Houston, I want to dance with
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: somebody is like somebody else exactly.
• 47:08
  Speaker 9: So that was my introduction, and then of course listening
• 47:12
  Speaker 9: to that album and I listened back to it this
• 47:14
  Speaker 9: week just to refresh myself. There were so many songs
• 47:18
  Speaker 9: on that album that were so radical for that time.
• 47:22
  Speaker 9: I mean poker Face especially, and she was asked so
• 47:25
  Speaker 9: much about this in that time by some very intrusionary journalists.
• 47:30
  Speaker 9: By the way, you know, there's there's the lyric about
• 47:33
  Speaker 9: bluffing with my muffin, and at the time that was like,
• 47:37
  Speaker 9: wait a minute, what are you implying. Are you implying
• 47:41
  Speaker 9: that you're not a woman? Are you implying you know
• 47:44
  Speaker 9: something about your sexuality? And she was asked about it
• 47:47
  Speaker 9: over and over again to the point where she appeared
• 47:50
  Speaker 9: bored because it was boring for her. It was like,
• 47:54
  Speaker 9: I'm making music that feels authentic to me. You're gleaning
• 47:57
  Speaker 9: whatever you want from it. But to own only ask
• 48:00
  Speaker 9: me about my sexuality and to make it about gender
• 48:04
  Speaker 9: or what have you when I just made a great
• 48:05
  Speaker 9: pop song. How boring. But it really opened the door
• 48:09
  Speaker 9: to a lot of those conversations, Well, what does poker
• 48:12
  Speaker 9: face mean? You know, what does that imply about your sexuality?
• 48:16
  Speaker 9: Are you interested in men? Are you interested in women?
• 48:18
  Speaker 9: Which one both? And so she was really sort of
• 48:22
  Speaker 9: backed into a corner in a lot of ways where
• 48:25
  Speaker 9: she ultimately just said, yeah, I'm bisexual. Me singing poker
• 48:28
  Speaker 9: face and having a poker face about my sexuality means
• 48:31
  Speaker 9: that it's information that's mine and it's my identity, and
• 48:38
  Speaker 9: you know, maybe I don't want you to know it.
• 48:40
  Speaker 9: Maybe it doesn't matter to me.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Madonna ran so Lady Gaga could sprint. I thought she
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: took it to a whole other level. You and I
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: had like a pre call to talk about which pop
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: stars we were gonna dissect and discuss, and I asked
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: you which one you identified with most, and you said
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Gaga percent.
• 49:02
  Speaker 9: Lady Gaga, I mean, just for so many reasons, sexuality
• 49:05
  Speaker 9: for certain, but also because she was one of the
• 49:09
  Speaker 9: first pop stars that I have clocked anyway who was
• 49:13
  Speaker 9: very candidate about being sexually assaulted and very cantiond about
• 49:17
  Speaker 9: being used and abused and dehumanized by the entertainment industry.
• 49:22
  Speaker 9: I mean, you go back to her performance. I believe
• 49:25
  Speaker 9: it was at the VMA's performing pop Parazzi.
• 49:30
  Speaker 11: Fini your Lovely Umma Bumba VOXI.
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: There's no more soon staying than Pivosi.
• 49:45
  Speaker 9: That performance was so insanely radical for that time. I
• 49:50
  Speaker 9: remember again, it was one of those moments in pop
• 49:52
  Speaker 9: culture where I remember exactly where I was when I
• 49:55
  Speaker 9: watched it and how I felt afterward, and seeing her
• 49:59
  Speaker 9: is eventually die on stage. That was her way of saying,
• 50:05
  Speaker 9: I have watched for years what this industry does to
• 50:09
  Speaker 9: women like me, what it did to Britney Spears, what
• 50:12
  Speaker 9: it tried to do with you know a number of
• 50:14
  Speaker 9: other people, and that will not be me. You will
• 50:18
  Speaker 9: not dehumanize me, you will not kill me. I'm the
• 50:22
  Speaker 9: one driving this, basically, I'm the one, you know who
• 50:27
  Speaker 9: is subverting what the industry does to female pop stars.
• 50:33
  Speaker 9: It blew the door open for me, and I think,
• 50:36
  Speaker 9: I would say, obviously for a lot of people as well.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Kesha obviously publicly came out and said
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: she was abused, and Gaga publicly supported her, but a
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: lot of people didn't.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: And where's Kesha.
• 50:51
  Speaker 9: And it's important to note that Kesha's defamation trial against
• 50:57
  Speaker 9: doctor Luke or excuse me, I believe it's doctor Luke
• 51:00
  Speaker 9: is alleging defamation against her for publicly accusing him of assault,
• 51:04
  Speaker 9: is happening this summer, and so I think we're going
• 51:07
  Speaker 9: to see a re emergence of conversations, hopefully hope about
• 51:13
  Speaker 9: again what industry figures have been empowered to do to
• 51:18
  Speaker 9: the lives and careers of women like Kesha, and her
• 51:22
  Speaker 9: last album I have to say, where she really sonically
• 51:26
  Speaker 9: acknowledged the trauma that she has, you know, alleged and
• 51:31
  Speaker 9: the pain that she's alleged that doctor Luke inflicted upon
• 51:35
  Speaker 9: her is absolutely one of the most remarkable works to
• 51:40
  Speaker 9: me in the last ten years.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: I think in the twenty tens, we start getting into
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: the I think the public starts asking what is feminism?
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Is feminism? Brushing your teeth with Jack Daniels? Is feminism?
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: A meat dress our butt implants feminist? All of these
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: things start to come up because of Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: and Kesha, and then you have Taylor Swift, and to me,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Taylor is a really controversial feminist.
• 52:13
  Speaker 11: Look what you made me too? What you made me to?
• 52:16
  Speaker 11: Look what you just name me to? Look what you
• 52:19
  Speaker 11: just named me? Look what you made me do? Look
• 52:22
  Speaker 11: what you made me too? What you just made me do?
• 52:26
  Speaker 7: What you just made me to?
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: What you made me to?
• 52:30
  Speaker 10: What you mean me to?
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: What you just made me do? What you just what
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: you made me do?
• 52:37
  Speaker 7: What you made me to?
• 52:39
  Speaker 11: What you do you do?
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: Look what you just made me do.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: On one hand, some of the things I think she's done.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Is really helpful for feminism.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: She sued the radio DJ that assaulted her for a dollar,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: which I thought was her standing up in absolutely in
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: a way that was necessary. She joined independent labels in
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: a fight to make Apple Music pay artists for the
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: free trial period it offered consumers earlier. In the last
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: few years, her former label, Big Machine bought her Masters
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: and she re recorded everything, and she's been really vocal
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: in a lot of important ways for women in the
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: music industry. She was slut shamed for having so many relationships,
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: and I was thinking today about men who have also
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: had so many relationships. Leonardo DiCaprio, Diddy, Derek Jeter. We
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: don't ever talk about any of them. The list goes on.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: And on the other hand, there is this brand of
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: white feminism that is a cloud that follows Taylor Swift.
• 53:44
  Speaker 9: I agree, yes. Firstly, I think feminism is what we
• 53:50
  Speaker 9: decided to be. I think it's a very individualized thing.
• 53:55
  Speaker 9: If wearing a tie and a leather jacket is feminism
• 53:58
  Speaker 9: to you, great, If plastic surgery and you know, amendments,
• 54:03
  Speaker 9: surgical amendments is feminism to you awesome, I really think
• 54:07
  Speaker 9: it should be an individualized answer. It's not for me
• 54:11
  Speaker 9: to decide for any one person, nor is it any
• 54:14
  Speaker 9: one person's decision for me. So with regard to Taylor Swift,
• 54:19
  Speaker 9: I think media played a huge role in demonizing her,
• 54:25
  Speaker 9: and obviously that that played a huge role in her
• 54:29
  Speaker 9: you know, relationships as well, where she was positive as
• 54:33
  Speaker 9: like this, like complete Jezebel for daring to date as
• 54:40
  Speaker 9: many men as she did and then to turn around
• 54:43
  Speaker 9: and write songs about them. How dare she.
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: Yours getting back together?
• 55:10
  Speaker 9: You know, even the ones that you know she claims
• 55:14
  Speaker 9: caused real harm to her. You know, It's what Taylor
• 55:17
  Speaker 9: Swift did is no different from what we all do
• 55:21
  Speaker 9: when we get our heart broken or date and have
• 55:24
  Speaker 9: a remarkable experience, good or bad. You know, we're going
• 55:27
  Speaker 9: to talk about it. We're going to use it as art,
• 55:29
  Speaker 9: We're gonna you know, write about it, We're going to
• 55:32
  Speaker 9: remark on it for years and years to come. That's
• 55:35
  Speaker 9: just what we do. It's human nature. And in her case,
• 55:39
  Speaker 9: it's really interesting, right, Like I want to know who
• 55:42
  Speaker 9: broke her heart. I want to know how she got
• 55:44
  Speaker 9: it broken. I want to know the times that she
• 55:47
  Speaker 9: was made to feel amazing by love or was inspired
• 55:50
  Speaker 9: by love or got through a breakup. I think again,
• 55:53
  Speaker 9: human nature, right, Like, that's just that's what an artist
• 55:57
  Speaker 9: is meant to do, reflect the experience of a collective
• 56:01
  Speaker 9: by sharing their own individual one. So is she sort
• 56:05
  Speaker 9: of this arbiter of white feminism one hundred and ten percent.
• 56:09
  Speaker 9: I remember feeling quite disappointed by her for being silent
• 56:15
  Speaker 9: on a lot of political matters in years past, but
• 56:19
  Speaker 9: I know that she's acknowledged that and has moved forward.
• 56:24
  Speaker 9: And again, there's a few pivotal scenes in her documentary,
• 56:28
  Speaker 9: her Netflix documentary, where you see the conversation she's having
• 56:32
  Speaker 9: about being vocal about politics, and the conversations she's having
• 56:37
  Speaker 9: and whom with right So it's literally her as one
• 56:41
  Speaker 9: of the only women in a room and she's having
• 56:43
  Speaker 9: to fight against men who are telling her you can't
• 56:47
  Speaker 9: have an opinion on that publicly because you will slice
• 56:50
  Speaker 9: your audience in half.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: There's also this interesting thing with Taylor is that we
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: forget that she was a country star first.
• 56:57
  Speaker 9: Exactly the best.
• 57:07
  Speaker 11: He saying an Jennie.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: And growing up in the South, being in country music,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: there's a whole different expectation of what you do and
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: don't say. Like Dolly Parton, very famously doesn't get involved
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: in politics, and Taylor switched over to being a pop
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: star and the expectations and what people want from you
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: are different.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: And is it a requirement to be a feminist as
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: a pop star?
• 57:42
  Speaker 7: Now?
• 57:43
  Speaker 9: It depends on who you ask. For me, No, as
• 57:48
  Speaker 9: I've grown older, and I think maybe if you would
• 57:51
  Speaker 9: have asked me that question even five years ago, I
• 57:53
  Speaker 9: would have said yes, right. But for me, I am
• 57:57
  Speaker 9: most intrigued by people who are honest. And you named,
• 58:04
  Speaker 9: you know, Dolly Parton, who you know, for years refused
• 58:09
  Speaker 9: to call herself a feminist and said, you know, it's
• 58:12
  Speaker 9: just not for me. I haven't felt included in that conversation.
• 58:17
  Speaker 9: I haven't been embraced by, you know, the supposed arbiters
• 58:22
  Speaker 9: of feminism. So why would I consider myself one when
• 58:27
  Speaker 9: I've fallen prey to the quote unquote like intellectual feminists
• 58:33
  Speaker 9: for a while, so many women in country too have
• 58:37
  Speaker 9: have fallen prey to that. I mean, Tammy Whinett, stand
• 58:40
  Speaker 9: by your man, you know, Oh my god, you can't
• 58:42
  Speaker 9: say that, you know, don't stand by your man, don't
• 58:44
  Speaker 9: look weak or whatever. And again then that calls to mind,
• 58:48
  Speaker 9: you know, Beyonce and lemonade because she did and it
• 58:52
  Speaker 9: worked for her, and she's regarded as a feminist.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: There's an honesty factor.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: You're right, though, Like if it's from your heart, if
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: it's what you feel, yeah, then it works. And if
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: you don't want to be part of that, I guess
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: it feels like a put on, which is maybe what
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: audiences are struggling with with Taylor, because actually it's what
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: I struggle with because I feel her struggle.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: I feel her teetering the line.
• 59:18
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean right, because you have to, as a
• 59:22
  Speaker 9: pop star, try to appeal to a lot of different people,
• 59:26
  Speaker 9: and I think there are masses of people who'd want
• 59:29
  Speaker 9: to hear her say yep, I'm a feminist, and there
• 59:32
  Speaker 9: are masses of people who don't really care, and then
• 59:35
  Speaker 9: there are masses of people who don't want to hear
• 59:36
  Speaker 9: her say that. So I think it's a very thin
• 59:39
  Speaker 9: line to walk, and I'm just not interested in holding
• 59:43
  Speaker 9: anybody to that standard anymore. I don't need to know
• 59:47
  Speaker 9: that about you, or know really anything about you to
• 59:49
  Speaker 9: consume your art. As long as you're not racist, as
• 59:52
  Speaker 9: long as you're not transphobic, as long as you are
• 59:54
  Speaker 9: not actively harming people I don't care if you use
• 59:58
  Speaker 9: the F word.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: I almost wanted to put Cardi B in our pop
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: star category. Would you agree with that?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 9: Yes?
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: So I was thinking, okay, wop became this sort of
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: feminist anthem right now.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 12: From the top, make it jup. That's the wet ass.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 12: Good a fucking you, no mock, that's the wet egg.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 12: To see, I'm fucking wop wop wop. That's the wetest
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 12: pussy mac pop. That's the wet egg plus see huh.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: And then I kind of thought about, Okay, what came
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: before her? I think Nicki Minaj had anaconda.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: Anna my Anna, conduct don't want none unless you got
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: buns on.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 12: Oh my gosh, look at her, Oh my gosh, look
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 12: at her.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 6: Look at that.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: We had Lady Marmalade with Pink and Christina and Little
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Kim and Maya.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 7: Love that done.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: She said, hello, you want to give it a doll?
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 9: I mean Little Kim, complete trailblazer in terms of.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: We could do a whole episode on her.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that the sexualization objectification thing, that's fascinating. But with
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Cardi B, what do you think her stamp has been
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Because I actually think it's been quite significant, hugely.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 9: What I appreciate most about Cardi B Is that she
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 9: doesn't purport to have all the answers. And again this
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 9: is where I go back to honesty and authenticity. I
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 9: am not interested in holding any artist accountable for having
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 9: all the answers or knowing all the right things to say,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 9: or exhibiting, you know, the best possible experience. I think
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 9: to look at at folks whom you don't know and
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 9: try to make them into a role model where we
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 9: trip up as a society. We're all fallible, we're all
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 9: extremely human. And again, of course that means that doesn't
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 9: mean I don't care if you're a racist, transphobic, sexist, whatever.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 9: I don't want and I don't want to see anyone
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 9: causing harm to another another person or you know, marginalized
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 9: groups or what have you. But what is significant to
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 9: me about Cardi B. Is that she'll make a She
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 9: can make a statement and then go, actually, I fucked up,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 9: I said the wrong thing, or I have changed my mind,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 9: and that's human. We all do that, and she's just
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 9: doing it under a microscope. So I loved that about her,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 9: that there wasn't hesitation or fear in being seen as
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 9: fallible to.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: Me because of the way she came up through reality
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: TV and then the Internet and Instagram is so emblematic
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: of our generation, right, Like, I think the idea of
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: authenticity is so important to us. And you know, we
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: talked about the perfection of pop stardom. She's the antithesis
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: of that, right, and she's now with certain interviews she's
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: done where she talks about plastic surgery and how she
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: wants to look kind of perfect. It's interesting to see
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: how being a pop star has impacted her self image.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 9: Of course. I mean she you know, raps and talks
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 9: about getting her teeth fixed. You know, she's been very
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 9: honest about any cosmetic amendment she's made to herself.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: Which the honesty is amazing. It's fascinating.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think we have two more pop stars to
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: talk about, which are Lizo and Billie Eilish. So Lizzo
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: comes at us in twenty nineteen with her hit Juice
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: and the quote is I was born like this, don't
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: even gotta try, And then she comes out with these
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: amazing feel good hits.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: I do my head dolls check maybe how you feelings check?
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: Maybe how you feeling.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: In so many ways, both in her music and in
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: her personhood.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: She has this compelling and almost almost addictive self acceptance,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: like she is so accepting of who she is that
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: it makes her audience feel like I can be okay
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: with myself.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 9: Yes, And we go back to the honesty factor, because
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 9: she's you know, been honest and transparent about the times
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 9: that she hasn't right and about you know, I remember
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 9: one specific instance about two years ago where she said
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 9: that she was, you know, trying to eat healthier and
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 9: exercise more, and she was on some sort of clans
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 9: and people were just up in arms over the fact
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 9: that she was being vocal about that because her brand
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 9: was radical self acceptance and you know, you should love
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 9: yourself and you shouldn't try to amend you know, what's
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 9: God given and you know natural to you or what
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 9: have you. That's being held to a different standard and
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 9: looked at under microscope in a different way than anyone
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 9: we've talked about, because it's like, wait, wait a minute,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 9: I thought you said that it's okay to x y Z.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 9: Now you're you know, trying to you know, eat healthier,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 9: change things about yourself or what have you. And she
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 9: had to come out and you know, make a statement
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 9: on that, and it's just it's wild to see the
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 9: evolution of how society and how consumers try to hold
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 9: Fema popsteris accountable for the marketing.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: Well right, because it's not even about their music the
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: way it is for Justin Timberlake, so right as an
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: exam right right, it's about their personhood.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 9: Yes, well, you said you got on Instagram and you
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 9: said you're doing a juice cleanse. How am I supposed
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 9: to feel about that? It's like, this is a person.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 9: This is a person at the end of the day,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 9: a person who's being photographed everywhere. And you know, it's
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 9: human nature to be hit with photos or videos or
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 9: you know, things where you don't like yourself. It's not
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 9: natural in this society, within its confines, within this the
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 9: beauty industrial complex, to like yourself. Even the most secure
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 9: person in the world would have issues. So to try
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 9: to hold her accountable for not always exhibiting what we
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 9: think is radical self acceptance feels like so unfit, wildly unfair.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: One of the things I love about Lizzo is her musicianship.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: She's an artist artist. There's an amazing Howard Stern interview
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: with her when she talks about how she can actualizes
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: her album from song one to song nine, and I
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: just don't think and she plays instruments. I think you
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: don't get as many musicians like that, especially pop stars nowadays.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: And I just yeah, I like her artistry a lot.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 9: The sad thing is when you say that, it summons
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 9: to mind so many people who so many female pop
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 9: stars who are my favorites or non binary pop stars
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 9: were my favorites, who are also insanely talented and can
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 9: play a myriad of instruments, but are not in the mainstream.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 9: So that's important to note too.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, it takes It's a whole different thing being
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: a mainstream pop star.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 9: Yes, and in a way like I'm on a real
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 9: Muna kick right now, I'm obsessed with Muna.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 5: I could get a tomorrow talk to myself with gentle
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 5: work in a good.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: Let me, sobody who actually for me?
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 9: I look at them and think, you know, those are
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 9: for me, Those are pop stars. They are making pop music.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: You want to hear something great.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, I went to high school with Katie Gavin, stop
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: it right now. Okay, when we were in high school,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: we were in choir together. Okay, she's been that talented.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: If not like she's so talented, she's always been like
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: that and a true artist. Yes, and she did a
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: cover of with my hair Willow Smith when we were
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: in high school and went viral, yes, and.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: Totally put her on the map. But she's amazing.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 9: I love that you love Luna huge fan and have
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 9: been a huge fan for like years since twenty It's
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 9: so awesome. But yeah, I mean they're just one example, right,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 9: Like I look at all three of them and think
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 9: they're so I mean, unbelievably gifted. They do all their
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 9: own production, you know, all their own mixing, everything that
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 9: can play, Like I said, a myriad of instruments have
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 9: the vocals have everything. And in a way, it's like
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 9: I'm glad that they're not mainstream because I feel like
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 9: there's a sense of like protection still, like if they
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 9: were to make it on a more national, worldwide stage
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 9: where getting there was right, they are getting there, And
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 9: do you.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: Predict that they might be or do you think they'll
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: always kind of stay like cool underground.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 9: Selfishly, because yeah, I'm like a hoarder and once I
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 9: like something, I want to just I want to keep
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 9: them like in a protective bubble. I don't want the
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 9: world changing them. I don't want them to have to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 9: deal with bullshit. I don't want to have, you know,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 9: have to have them like deal with like any bullshit
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 9: from executives or whatever. I hope that they stay more
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 9: out of the mainstream. But of course, you know, I
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 9: want them to get their bag. They deserve it.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Speaking of getting the bag, Billie Eilish, I like.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 7: You really rough. It just came good enough. It's just
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 7: always a love guy. I'm not bad side. Make your
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 7: mom sad side, make your girl friend that side, seducive
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 7: sad side.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Oh my good god. She is so interesting to me
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: because she is what I think symbolizes a gen Z
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: pop star. So she rises to fame at fifteen years old,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: and she's wise beyond her years. She comes up wearing
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: baggy clothes and she says, this is so no one
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: can comment on her body.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was shocked by that. I was like, Wow,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: this chick has learned from all the other pop stars
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: that came before her. And she was like, I don't
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: want to deal with any of.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 9: This one and ken reliant can relate. Once she said,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 9: I was never really a fan, I'll be honest with you,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 9: until I saw that, and it was like, oh, that's
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 9: how I always felt. I mean, she came, you know,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 9: to fame as a teenage girl, so I always thought
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 9: that way as a teenage girl as well. Once your
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 9: body is able to be perceived by people, it does
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 9: change everything for you. Suddenly you know your brain isn't
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 9: the only thing that people are paying attention to. Suddenly
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 9: it's not what's coming out of your mouth that people
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 9: are paying attention to. You're being measured against what your
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 9: body and what your appearance, appearance, excuse me, looks like.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 9: So for her to have said that was I just
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 9: thought that was so poignant.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: But don't you think that it would have Like she
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: came at the right time because gen z is that right,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: Like they appreciate complicated, they appreciate green hair, they appreciate
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: different Like if she came up during the Britney Spears generation.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: She would have never made it.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 9: For sure. Her introduction right out the gate was railing
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 9: against patriarchal beauty standards and patriarchal sartorial you know rule
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 9: as well.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: In many ways, I think Billie Eilish was able to
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: do so because of people like Lady Gaga.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 9: I mean Lady Gaga dressed I mean literally presented as
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 9: a man, do you remember.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: I mean that was very cool.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 9: Yeah, and you know, the whole art pop era was
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 9: I mean so off the wall. But yes, to go
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 9: back to Billy, I think yeah, I think her predecessors
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 9: sort of laid the groundwork and then she got to
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 9: come into the industry where we were looking at a
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 9: young girl who was wearing baggy T shirts, baggy pants,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 9: not over sexualized, but of course, because human nature and
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 9: marketability and you know, social media and how people's brains work,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 9: it's like, okay, but how long is she going to
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 9: do that? Is she ever going to present the way
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 9: women should or whatever?
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: And she did change. Yeah, it does kind of present
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: more traditionally feminine.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 9: Now, there was that photo shoot I believe it was
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 9: either Vogue or Vanity Fair where it was like a
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 9: Bourdois shoot kind of yeah, where she sort of came.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 9: It was her debut as like a woman with a waste,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 9: and people just lost their minds. And again it's like
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 9: one of those are we really is this really like
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 9: twenty twenty two or twenty two is a little cringe,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 9: and we're going insane over a woman choosing to like
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 9: present differently.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, wait, so I do some rapid fire at
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: the end. Okay, what is a book that changed your
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: life that you think everybody should read?
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 9: Oh no, this is the hardest question I know ever.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 9: You know, when I think about that, the first thing
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 9: that comes to mind for me, ironically enough, in my
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 9: teen years, I read a innumerable rock music biographies and autobiographies,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 9: and Anthony Keiah is Scar Tissue changed the game for me.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 9: It was talk about fallibility. I mean, he's admitting to
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 9: like really awful, egregious things in that in that memoir.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 9: But by the end, it encourages people to again look deeper,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 9: interrogate things, think about the songwriting process in a way
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 9: that maybe they haven't, think about addiction in the maybe
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 9: a way that they hadn't, and to look at an
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 9: artist as more of a human being and less of
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 9: a commodity.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: M you're really passionate about that.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I am.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: So I do a pretty smart question anything question at
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: the end of it.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 9: I love you, I love your cards, Yes.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you just tell me when to stop. Okay,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: stop what's your favorite scent?
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 9: My favorite scent sandal.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: Would that was quick? You knew exactly what your favorite
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: sense was yep? Okay. And what is the smartest decision
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: you've ever made?
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 9: Ooh, Honestly, it's smart and it's dumb. I go back
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 9: and forth. I vacally between the two every day to
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 9: become a writer.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: Really glad you did.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 9: For the most part, I am too. I would hate
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 9: myself if I hadn't. It hasn't been an easy road.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 9: I probably will never achieve financial security. I have a
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 9: million people in my inbox every day telling me that
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 9: I'm a piece of shit, or I said the wrong thing,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 9: or the opinions I hold are wrong. But for me,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 9: this is the most authentic life that I could imagine
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 9: myself living.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: That's all that matters. I want to thank the people
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: that make the show possible.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: Colleen O'Neil, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe, and Phil speed Tech.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 7: Aboard