Latest / None of Your Business Podcast / The Therapist Who Graduated 5th Grade! Rabbi Spivak, MHC-Part 1

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The Therapist Who Graduated 5th Grade! Rabbi Spivak, MHC-Part 1 · None of Your Business Podcast

• 0:00
  There's two things we do with things that make us anxious.
• 0:04
  Something makes you anxious? You got 2 plays in your
• 0:06
  playbook? We try to control it or we
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  avoid. It none of your business Oshi.
• 0:18
  None of your business, Michael. It's the None of Your Business
• 0:21
  podcast hosted by Michael and Oshi.
• 0:25
  Welcome back everybody to the None of Your Business podcast.
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  This week we have with us the one and only Rabbi Spivak.
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  Rabbi Spivak, it is an honor to have you here.
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  But before we begin, let's remind everyone that this is
• 0:37
  sponsored by Prime Source, of course, and we thank the team at
• 0:40
  Prime Source and all the partners that are along with us
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  for this ride. And we ask you to please like,
• 0:45
  follow and subscribe. It's difficult for me to say it
• 0:47
  every week, but I have to remind you because those algorithms are
• 0:50
  watching and doing their job. And we can use your help to get
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  our message and our podcast out. Thank you, Rabbi Spivak.
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  Welcome. Thank you.
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  Thank you so much for inviting me.
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  It's really a pleasure to be here.
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  OK, Rabbi, why don't we just get right into it with who is Rabbi
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  Spivak? I mean, we were talking a few
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  minutes ago about our families and, you know, that, you know,
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  we're getting to know each other a little bit more.
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  And then I was like, hold on a second, rabbi.
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  You're not just the rabbi. You're not just an educator.
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  You're not just a mentor and a therapist.
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  You're also a family man, right? You're a husband, you're a
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  father. You have a practice.
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  Tell us a little bit about. Yourself friend, yes.
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  So he has like, you know, his best friend as well, who doesn't
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  know him as a rabbi, knows real Rabbi Spivak.
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  Trying to get secrets. Yeah, I'm already, I'm already
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  prying. Yes, but none of your business
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  podcasts for a reason. All right, so I'm our own
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  Spivak, and in the current chapter of my life, I am both
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  the rabbi of a shul as well as a therapist in private practice,
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  and in previous iterations of myself, I was in elementary
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  school. Rebbe actually did that for over
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  20 years. Where?
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  Where most of it was at Yeshiva Dahe Noam, which then became
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  Yeshiva Katana Aruvain. I taught 5th grade Asala
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  Skamara. That was a passion of mine.
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  I actually wrote books that are published and used in many
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  schools now and and. So you wanted to pick fifth
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  grade? Like that was your choice.
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  No, I fell into it. But what I loved about fifth
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  grade was that when it came to learning Gemara, which is so new
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  and complex and different, I was starting the kids off from
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  scratch. So I was able to do it the way I
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  believed to be the right way. So 5th grade is the turning
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  point where kids start to learn Gamora.
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  Right, that's that was. You know, so that's a big
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  responsibility for you to figure out how to like do the olive
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  Bayes of Gamora. Yeah, and you know, I have
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  opinions about things, so obviously I have opinions on
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  what the right methods and techniques and skills are that
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  are needed to start off in Gamora.
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  So being able to teach at that ground level was was really
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  gratifying. I'd like to pause and get back
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  to that later. Let's go back to who you are, a
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  little bit of your background. Who am I and a little bit of my
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  background so I it's a tough question.
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  Who am I right, that's like that's an existential question,
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  very philosophical. I grew up in Muncie, New York,
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  went to yeshiva's out of town, came back and really soon as I
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  got married at a pretty young age, I set out and started my
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  career in and that was really the primary piece of my public
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  identity that I was that well known 5th grade Rebbie right
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  and. You became a Rebbie right after
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  you got married. Your first job was being a
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  elementary school teacher. Yeah, I was.
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  I was a married and and and a rebbie before I was old enough
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  to drink. Wow, when did you know you
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  wanted to be a rebbie? When did I know?
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  I don't know. Very early arms.
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  I don't know that I knew I knew that.
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  It. Was something Anita and and I
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  thought it was something I thought I'd be good at.
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  Let me give it a shot. I wasn't committing to it.
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  Very few people. Who need a job?
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  Think of being a rappy. Well, if they're more limited as
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  you didn't go to college. I don't know.
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  I don't know. I'm.
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  Looking to get into the. Business I took, I took some
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  training courses. Listen, I'm still waiting to
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  decide what I what I want to be when I grow up.
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  Like I said, I know what I'm doing with the current chapter
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  and stage of my life. Love it.
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  And, you know, making that transition from one chapter to
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  the next, you know, that goes with its own set of of highs and
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  lows. All right, so being a rebbie,
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  tell us what that was like for you.
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  So being a Rebbie, like I said, I didn't make any long term
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  commitments. It was something I was going to
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  try and it was something that really I just connected to it.
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  The more than the giving over of the knowledge and the
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  information, it was the human connection with the students
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  that was really, that's what really kept me in it.
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  How long did you go for? How long did I go for as a?
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  Rebbe Yeah. So a total of 22 years.
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  Wow. Yeah, yeah.
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  Total of 20. Years respect, by the way.
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  I mean, after a while you realize you're not doing it for
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  the money, right? That was a very short.
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  Matter of fact, do they still owe you money like let's do they
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  put you on a payment? Plan.
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  You know, I hope not. I.
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  Hope. No.
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  Yeah. No.
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  Barack Hashem, I have. Like kids that come today to you
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  and like Rabbi speak back. Do you Remember Me?
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  Like from like 15 years? Happens all the time.
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  Right. Sure, I get invited to weddings.
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  Listen if if I can. Oh, they're inviting you to
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  weddings? OK, thank God.
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  Meaning. Right.
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  If I can, if I can toot my own horn.
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  Yeah, you know, please. I was with all the time here.
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  I was a really good ready, right.
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  I really connected well with the students.
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  I was well liked, the kids learned a lot, they gained a lot
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  of skills, they developed self-confidence and we were we
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  were well connected, like the end of the last day of school
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  every year. OK, believe me, I was thrilled
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  at July and August in front of me, but I was really saddened
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  that my day-to-day connection with this group of kids was, you
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  know, was coming to an end. Wow, you know that's.
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  My 5th grade Rebbe used to fall asleep long enough for us to
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  leave the room, go to the bathroom, come back and get find
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  our seat and he would still be sleeping.
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  That was my fifth grade Rebbe and.
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  And, and that's not an uncommon experience, I'll tell you that.
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  That's precisely why I made an exit strategy.
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  If I was still in the classroom today, I might be that might be
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  that type of Rebbe. I might be the kind of Rebbe
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  that the kids would be doing. I'd be edgy.
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  I'd be, you know, frustrated, burned out.
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  And when I saw that coming, I said OK, I need to start
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  planning for what's after because I'm not going to have 25
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  more years of kids saddled with me because I have nothing else.
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  I. Have to say I love this because
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  I meet with people that need career guidance and I can't tell
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  you lately the amount of rabaeum that I personally been meeting
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  week after week who want to exit the Rebbe world and go into some
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  sort of business because of your reason and respect to every
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  single Rebbe that does that. You give it your all.
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  You really create a system that works.
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  Then you can give on your system to others potentially, which I
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  hope you're doing right. You were.
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  I I I have 3 published books on Australia Skamara which are used
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  in 10s of. Schools, That's that's amazing.
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  But what would be your suggestion?
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  What would you say to these Rabaim who are leaving the, the
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  rabbihood and they want to go into a career?
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  What would I, I don't know generally what to say to them.
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  I, I, I'd like to know your take on it.
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  Well. The first thing I would say is
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  kudos to you for having the courage to recognize that you're
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  a human being in the tank is going to run out.
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  I would say to the Rabaim a few years before that, be proactive.
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  Don't wait until you're dreading every day in the classroom.
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  That's what the camera's for. Don't wait until you're dreading
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  every day in the classroom. Start preparing because if
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  you're going to do it well, if you're going to want to get some
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  kind of degree and some kind of licensing, some kind of
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  training, it's going to take some years.
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  So what would you recommend going from?
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  Into what? Yeah, that depends on each
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  individual. How could he recommend going
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  into some specifics everywhere? Because you have experience a
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  decade in teaching. So no.
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  No, I'm asking specifically you have a decade experience in
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  teaching. What is that call for?
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  That's why I'm asking his opinion.
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  I don't know based on that I guess.
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  You're asking does teaching translate?
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  To something else, yeah. So similar so I can tell you.
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  For me, because the thing I cherished most about teaching
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  was the human connection. So going into therapy was a very
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  logical progression. Cool.
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  Right, if some people love the the technical aspects or maybe
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  going into being a corporate trainer or, or if people love
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  the public's, there are so many things that, you know, if people
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  love the information spreading, so they want to go into some
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  kind of IT field and or if they want to stay in the education
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  sphere, either go into education administration or curriculum
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  development. There's so many things that you
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  can do. Educational technology is is a
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  booming field with so many different things.
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  So there's a lot of places to go.
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  And then some people might want to say, you know what?
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  I did this. Let me do something totally from
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  scratch and let me sell insurance.
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  Let's go a little. 360 here we're talking about the rebeum
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  that have that you said the courage to recognize that this
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  is not for me anymore and I'm not doing any of the kids any
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  favors by sticking around year after year and let me go find a
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  different path, right? What about those, Rebeum?
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  And we all, you know, had those that are a little bit past their
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  prime, way past their prime. And they're probably doing a
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  very big disservice to the kids by remaining in the field.
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  And I think the school usually keeps them on a little bit
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  longer because they're tenured. And it's in a way disrespectful
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  after all these years to say it's probably not for you
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  anymore. Let's bring him the younger
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  Rebam. What do you do about that?
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  I mean, it happens in every school.
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  You have those unqualified who were very qualified for many,
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  many years. They were great.
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  And we should appreciate what they've done for many years.
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  And I'm not saying that we should just hang them out to
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  dry, but something's got to give.
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  There's got to be that. How do we treat that?
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  What do we do about that? So it's a tough and painful
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  question. Listen, if you have a colleague
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  that you've been sharing coffee with every morning for the last
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  30 years and he's put his heart and soul into the kids and into
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  the school, right? And now, you know, they're at
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  that point. It's very tough not to have your
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  number one allegiance to this colleague of yours or this
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  employee of yours who you want to show our Garza Tov to.
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  But I will go on record and say that the top priority of the
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  school must be what's right for the kids.
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  Now, you can't treat dedicated rebellion.
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  You can't mistreat them for the sake of doing right by the kids,
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  right? Because that's not going to help
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  the kids in the long run. If you have rebellion working in
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  an environment where they feel like, you know, the walls could
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  be caving in unaniminated time. But if, if a school knows that
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  that the kids are suffering because this person doesn't have
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  that passion and that love and that excitement and everything
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  the kids are getting is antithetical to what we want
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  them to get. In the end of the day, it's the
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  school's administrator's position.
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  They have to prioritize the kids first and there are BAME 2nd.
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  And how do you handle that? What do you do with this
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  individual? You know that's going to be a
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  case by case basis? How, how much does the person
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  recognize that they're past that prime?
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  How much are they in denial that they're not?
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  That they don't have it anymore to do it in the way it needs to?
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  Be we're talking about it's clear as day to everybody.
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  The school knows it, the parents of the children know it, The
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  Rebel himself probably knows it, but he's got nothing.
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  Else to do, but is he ready to admit it?
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  No, he's still denial a little bit.
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  So. So how forceful do we need to
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  be? I mean, you're saying that, you
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  know, you got to put the kids first, not at the at the expense
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  of the Rebbe, not to mischief. We're not mistreating him.
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  This is what needs to be done. I mean, kids are suffering from
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  this, you know, class after class.
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  At what point do you have to actually forcibly remove this
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  this Rebbe and the nice way you could possibly do what you got
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  to do it? So this is actually brought down
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  in this discussed their shilos and shoeless.
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  It's actually discussed in halacha and what's accepted
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  across the board is that if there's somebody else who is
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  very clearly going to be demonstrably better for the
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  kids, you have to make the change right now.
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  You're going to do everything you can to, to help the person
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  get training and, and help them, you know, see if they can
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  rejuvenate themselves. If, if if it's past that point.
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  You know, typically these people are doing this for 30 plus.
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  Years so if there's a space to carve out for them in the
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  administration right you know we raise funds for so many
• 12:42
  different things right so if the school knows that they're not
• 12:44
  going to be able to dismiss this Rebbe right it would be a
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  community outrage because the person wouldn't have wouldn't
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  have a job right so if we need to take on a a community
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  fundraising project so 25 kids every year don't have to spend 5
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  hours of the day with somebody who's bitter and snapping at
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  them right instead of showing them passion love, and
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  excitement and and building them up right I think that's a worthy
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  cause so if you have to say to somebody listen we found a job
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  in the school for this person we need to fundraise an extra
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  however many 10s of thousands of dollars to pay that salary so.
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  It's a nice idea, but historically I don't think
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  that's been happening. I think historically our
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  communities are somewhat guilty of avoiding this.
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  Topic It's getting a lot better now, though.
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  It is getting a lot better. I could say personally with my
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  experience that schools are paying more to get more Rabam
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  and the only the the bottleneck for the for the up and coming,
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  Yeah, the bottleneck that they had.
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  Every school still has those Rabam that have been there but
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  for many, many, many years. It took time.
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  It took time to, perhaps for. I hope so, I'm not in the game
• 13:44
  as. Much pushy.
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  Is the point of this discussion so that we can talk about doing
• 13:49
  things exactly as they've been done historically, or are we
• 13:52
  having a discussion to come up with ideas and new thoughts to
• 13:56
  improve things in any way? So, So yes, that's historically
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  how it's been done, right? By the way, you should start an
• 14:04
  organization. Somebody should start an
• 14:05
  organization to help transition. Some of these rebate.
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  Not even the ones that are getting a lot older.
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  Maybe the ones that are somewhere midway through and
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  they realize, wait a second. I don't know if this is the best
• 14:13
  thing for me. I probably want to do something
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  else. There should be an organization
• 14:17
  to help them just integrate into the workforce and find a
• 14:20
  business that's suitable for them.
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  Why don't we start something like this?
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  Why don't we have some? I'm challenging you.
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  Maybe you used to like you would be perfect for this type of
• 14:28
  thing. Maybe let's talk about it.
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  Let's talk about. It all.
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  I just don't know if that's something I choose to do with my
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  time but. Not you, not you, you'll
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  spearhead. So I I I'll find the right
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  person. I guess the first question to
• 14:39
  find out is if something like this exists yet.
• 14:43
  That would be the first question if possible.
• 14:45
  And if not, I would bring this to Tora Misora.
• 14:48
  You know, they're the ones who who are there to support Rabaim
• 14:52
  and to build the infrastructure and the materials and the, you
• 14:56
  know, and, and the inspiration that the Mahan can need.
• 15:00
  So developing an exit strategy is part of that.
• 15:04
  You know, there's been a tremendous push in recent years
• 15:06
  to make sure Rabaim is safe for retirement and have pensions for
• 15:10
  this very reason that once a Rebbe is at retirement age, she
• 15:13
  doesn't have to keep teaching, you know, just to, you know,
• 15:16
  just to pay the bills, Right. So this can be an extension of
• 15:20
  that, you know, besides for having a way out at retirement.
• 15:24
  Have a way out when it's time. Yeah, it's time to move.
• 15:27
  On that's a great idea by the people have taken upon
• 15:29
  themselves life insurance to fund for Rabian, which is also a
• 15:32
  good idea very important organizations that do that.
• 15:34
  We just had something actually here happened at prime source, a
• 15:36
  little bit controversial, like we were in a, we were in a very
• 15:39
  Gray area and we weren't sure how to proceed, but it's right
• 15:42
  on this topic. How's my facial expression?
• 15:44
  Is it OK? Like I'm.
• 15:45
  I'm ready to hear. What?
• 15:46
  You sure you weren't actually? I'm like getting nervous.
• 15:48
  Here as it was happening. OK.
• 15:51
  I'm ready so much in the process, but a few of us here
• 15:54
  that were were thinking about hiring for a certain position at
• 15:58
  at prime source and we didn't currently exactly find the right
• 16:00
  person. But funny enough, just came up
• 16:03
  one day and we realized, wait a second, this person actually
• 16:05
  might be grateful and who was it?
• 16:07
  He was a Rebbe. He's a Rebbe in an elementary
• 16:09
  school. And he also does like certain
• 16:12
  organizations that he spearheads throughout the year as well.
• 16:15
  He runs campaigns. He runs like certain
• 16:17
  organization that he helps do their campaigns.
• 16:20
  And we're very impressed by him because his managerial skills
• 16:24
  were off the chart. Like you could tell that he was
• 16:26
  very detail oriented. He had a great personality.
• 16:29
  You know, he was very, he was pretty loud.
• 16:31
  He's very, he speaks very well. He articulates himself very
• 16:34
  well. You know, he has a lot of these
• 16:35
  characteristics that are that a Rebbe typically has.
• 16:38
  And we like, wait, we should offer him the job.
• 16:40
  I think you'd be perfect for it. And me and a few of the people
• 16:43
  here, we agreed. And then at one point, like we
• 16:45
  asked ourselves, wait a second, wait a second.
• 16:47
  He's he's a Rebbe. He's learning Torah and he's
• 16:51
  teaching Torah. Not only he's teaching Torah.
• 16:53
  Is it our place? Is it appropriate for us to
• 16:56
  technically now solicit him? And I don't think he's thinking
• 17:00
  about leaving the space, but we're going to introduce the
• 17:03
  idea to him. And we're even thinking about
• 17:05
  how to entice him, like I'm going to lure him away.
• 17:07
  I'm actually going to offer him. I'm basically going to say, stop
• 17:10
  doing what you're doing. And let me tell you why you
• 17:12
  should come into the business workers.
• 17:14
  You'd be perfect. He'd be great.
• 17:15
  You have a lot to offer. And then we realized that I
• 17:17
  don't know if that's like so ethically, morally, hologically
• 17:21
  correct to do. And we held off and we decided
• 17:24
  not to because, you know, we're going to speak.
• 17:25
  It was a few people about it. We never actually did.
• 17:27
  Let's do it now. We never took, but exactly.
• 17:29
  It's so interesting. Love it.
• 17:31
  I do remember it. I do remember what you're
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  talking about now. Yes, absolutely.
• 17:34
  It's also because when a Rebbe organizes events, they become
• 17:38
  event coordinators. They really do so many
• 17:40
  different. Things right and when they
• 17:41
  they're teaching a class they're selling themselves on the
• 17:43
  product or the subject matter that they're experts on customer
• 17:46
  service with their parents sales right they have to make sure
• 17:48
  that they're Oh yeah right they. Have to learn how to deal with
• 17:50
  people's personalities. Rabbi, this is someone
• 17:52
  proficient in technology. Rabbi before before you give
• 17:55
  your thoughts, I just want the listeners to know who you are
• 17:57
  more than just the Rebbe. So continue that, you know, line
• 18:00
  for just 30 seconds from becoming a Rebbe.
• 18:02
  You then did what? So from becoming a Rebbe, I then
• 18:05
  transitioned into being a therapist.
• 18:09
  And there was an overlap between the two, you know, for a couple
• 18:12
  of years, you know, well, I first I went to school, then I
• 18:16
  did my internship and then I did my, you know, hours under
• 18:19
  supervision to get my state license.
• 18:22
  And all of that happened while I was teaching in the morning and
• 18:24
  doing this. Work.
• 18:25
  How long did that process take? Just curious.
• 18:27
  How long did that process? Until you saw your first client.
• 18:30
  So I was in school, so I actually the first thing I had
• 18:33
  to do was finish up my bachelor's degree.
• 18:35
  So that took a year, then two years to get my master's degree.
• 18:42
  And then because I was still teaching in the morning to get
• 18:45
  my clinical hours. My licensure is called licensed
• 18:48
  mental health counselor. So I needed 3000 clinical hours
• 18:53
  to to get my license under supervision.
• 18:55
  So I did those three hours. It took me 3 years.
• 18:58
  Ideally want you to do it in two years, but.
• 19:00
  I'm, I'm super impressed. I just have to say with your
• 19:02
  process, right, with, with what you did, because a lot of
• 19:05
  therapists today are social workers and they're OK.
• 19:07
  They have the the the ability to help people, but you know, you
• 19:11
  took it to the next level and you know what, that's great.
• 19:14
  So you're definitely qualified to answer this question.
• 19:17
  Let's go back to this question As a rabbi of a community.
• 19:20
  As a I didn't. Get to that part yet how it
• 19:22
  became a rabbi of a community? Oh, which happened when?
• 19:25
  Sorry. So that happened after I became
• 19:28
  a therapist. Oh, you talk.
• 19:29
  About when you became a RUV. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:31
  But that's a separate topic. 100% get to 100% that'll be.
• 19:35
  Good story too, that'll. Be kind of part.
• 19:36
  Two. But now let's go back to the
• 19:37
  questions. Yeah, when you.
• 19:38
  Were a Rebbe when you were a Rebbe and you're a?
• 19:40
  Therapist. Yeah, yeah.
• 19:41
  'Cause I being a RUV, by the way, I have lots of questions
• 19:44
  about that and I'm very, very curious to hear.
• 19:46
  About. But you're very qualified to
• 19:48
  answer this question, which is why I like what you do.
• 19:50
  Yeah. What do you do?
• 19:50
  What do you. I love this.
• 19:51
  Question Are you allowed to even?
• 19:52
  Am I allowed to? And should I feel bad that I
• 19:55
  took somebody away from learning to to actually?
• 19:57
  Right. And we, we, we deal with this
• 19:59
  challenge in business all the time of poaching other people
• 20:01
  from companies. That's a separate question which
• 20:04
  we're not talking about. Talking about taking someone
• 20:05
  away, A Ravi, someone who's helping the community.
• 20:09
  We're giving him a partner, right?
• 20:10
  We're giving him a partner. And he may, he may get an offer
• 20:12
  in a year from now from someone else.
• 20:14
  And instead he could come to us and we wouldn't even be inviting
• 20:16
  that. We may be doing him a favor as
• 20:18
  well. So how do we address this great
• 20:20
  question? Is she?
• 20:21
  Yeah. It's a great.
• 20:21
  Question only a great question because it's a real time.
• 20:23
  And for the right person, it actually happened the.
• 20:25
  Therapist in the IS stumping at the bit to get to something.
• 20:30
  You dangled in front of me. You said those words.
• 20:33
  Should I feel bad? That's like.
• 20:38
  Jewish guilt. There's nothing that competes
• 20:40
  with Jewish. Guilt.
• 20:41
  It's really relevant to the answer because this is not a
• 20:44
  black and white question. You know, on one hand, you're
• 20:46
  going to look and like there could be hundreds of children
• 20:49
  who would have this really dynamic, qualified, great person
• 20:54
  influencing their lives, building their self esteem, you
• 20:58
  know, giving them a, a, a, a, a passion for Torah and mitzvos.
• 21:03
  Why would I want to stop that? But then on the other hand,
• 21:07
  listen, maybe this person wants to, you know, do right by their
• 21:11
  family and you know, and bring in, you know, as you mentioned,
• 21:14
  you know, being a Rebbe is not the most lucrative of fields.
• 21:17
  So maybe I want to maybe want to do right by their family.
• 21:20
  And so it's a tough question. So there isn't a black and
• 21:23
  white. So you you threw in this idea of
• 21:28
  should I feel bad, right? So when when we approach a
• 21:32
  decision of I'm afraid of doing something that's going to make
• 21:36
  me feel bad, right? So that's a very negative space
• 21:43
  to be, to be approaching a decision from.
• 21:46
  You know, the first word of that phrase is should, right?
• 21:49
  So anybody who's ever sat in my office knows the word should is
• 21:54
  vile, right? It is, it is, it is, it is foul
• 21:59
  language. What is the word should mean?
• 22:04
  Should means one of two things. Either I am taking the world's
• 22:10
  expectations and putting it on me.
• 22:13
  I should really work harder. I should really, you know, be
• 22:18
  better at this. I should, should, should,
• 22:20
  should, why? Who said should?
• 22:21
  Well, the world, that's what the world told me, right?
• 22:24
  Or I'm taking my expectations and putting it on everyone else,
• 22:29
  right? So he should really have well,
• 22:32
  who said, well, that's what I expected, right?
• 22:35
  You know, somebody should really Why?
• 22:38
  Because I think so, right? The word should always carries
• 22:43
  with it negative energy. The word should will always put
• 22:47
  you in that, because should is always followed with.
• 22:50
  But right, I should really do this, but I'm too tired.
• 22:55
  I'm too lazy. The world wants me to do this.
• 22:57
  Should I do this Because the world wants but I don't want?
• 23:00
  But but what is the other way? What what?
• 23:04
  What is the on the opposite side of the should paradigm is the
• 23:10
  will what I want? What is my will?
• 23:13
  And Hebrew would say, what is my rut zone?
• 23:16
  What do I choose? Right?
• 23:18
  What is my Bahira, right? The should operates in the
• 23:22
  emotional sphere, emotional reactivity, right?
• 23:25
  Oh, I have to do this because I'll feel guilty if I don't,
• 23:28
  right? It doesn't get into what is my
• 23:31
  will? The word should doesn't address
• 23:34
  my rut zone. It address my guilt.
• 23:37
  So when you have a question like this, when you have an ethical
• 23:41
  or a moral question, let's say moral question that's not clear,
• 23:46
  that doesn't have a right answer or wrong answer, the way to
• 23:50
  address it is by looking into your values.
• 23:54
  What is the list of values that I have in my life, right, that I
• 23:59
  choose to live by, not because I should, but because that's what
• 24:04
  I choose. That's what I want my life to be
• 24:08
  about. And values don't always have to
• 24:11
  be like these virtuous things that they'll write about in your
• 24:13
  art scroll biography, right? The, you know, your values are
• 24:17
  anything you value in life, right?
• 24:19
  And some of them might be virtuous things and some of them
• 24:22
  might be just things that are important to you because they're
• 24:24
  important to you, right? When you will look into your
• 24:28
  values and say, based on my values, what is it that I
• 24:31
  choose? Now, values take emotions into
• 24:34
  into account, right? But to answer that question, do
• 24:38
  Ioffer somebody who is currently an effective and and and
• 24:43
  valuable member of the hinoch world a corporate job, right?
• 24:49
  But what are my values? And based on those values, what
• 24:52
  is it that I choose to do? What is it that I want to do?
• 24:56
  But what if I'm making the wrong choice?
• 24:57
  What if I'm doing the wrong thing, right?
• 25:00
  That's something that we have to have the courage to move past.
• 25:04
  They have the courage to to rely and trust our values and make
• 25:09
  choices that are going to bring that out and going to make our
• 25:13
  lives valuable. So we're not offering him a job.
• 25:16
  No, no. What?
• 25:17
  He said. Wow, Michael, you're jumping
• 25:20
  right away. You pulled the trigger.
• 25:21
  I'm saying that's the value. I'm still on assessment clear.
• 25:23
  Right now, I want to assess that, OK, So I listen very
• 25:26
  carefully. It's what you said.
• 25:27
  And I see a very clear distinction between should and
• 25:31
  between want, and I'm with you on that.
• 25:33
  And now I'm thinking to myself, what are my values that I choose
• 25:37
  to follow and to and to believe in.
• 25:40
  And ultimately, at the end of the day, look, my values are I
• 25:43
  want to be in the corporate world and I want to make money
• 25:46
  and why I want to make money. I want to make money so I can do
• 25:48
  certain things. One of those things is that I
• 25:50
  can support people in my community like Rabaim, right?
• 25:54
  People that aren't as fortunate as us and they're not driven by
• 25:57
  money and they need money still is to help them.
• 26:00
  That's part of what my values are.
• 26:02
  And therefore he's already doing that.
• 26:04
  He seems to be happy. I'm not doing this because I'm
• 26:07
  thinking maybe he's miserable and I can save him.
• 26:09
  I'm thinking selfishly, I think he would suit our needs.
• 26:12
  He would be an enhancement to our company.
• 26:14
  And that's why I want to go after him.
• 26:15
  But he's he's happy right now. He's ultimately doing what I'm
• 26:18
  going for eventually. That's why we all want to make
• 26:21
  money so we can spread it around to our community.
• 26:24
  And now I'm thinking the right thing would be to let him be
• 26:28
  and, and maybe even put out a probing question or two to kind
• 26:32
  of get his idea of where he's at, feel him out if he's, you
• 26:35
  know, really happy with what he's doing and then make the
• 26:37
  decision. But for now, I'm not in a place
• 26:40
  that I have the right to say to him outright.
• 26:42
  Come work free. But I'm going to pay you
• 26:43
  $1,000,000. That's the wrong move.
• 26:45
  Let me first feel it out. Let me come and put up a couple
• 26:47
  of questions out there and then make that decision based on what
• 26:50
  I think is is correct. And and that's a beautifully
• 26:56
  articulated expression of this concept.
• 26:59
  I'm just going to before I add more to of my thoughts to the
• 27:02
  specific topic. How does it feel to come out at
• 27:05
  a decision with what do I want to do based on my values versus?
• 27:09
  Should I feel bad if I do that? I love it, It's liberating, but.
• 27:12
  It's liberating. It's empowering.
• 27:15
  I get to make choices when when the Torah says Uvahartaba Haim
• 27:20
  choose life, it means choose life, right?
• 27:23
  Make choices of your life how you want to live, what it and,
• 27:28
  and and it it is. It is liberating.
• 27:30
  It is uplifting, it's empowering.
• 27:32
  It's it's amazing. Right.
• 27:34
  I feel good about it on my own. Like I just came to that
• 27:36
  conclusion. Obviously, you gave me sound
• 27:37
  advice of you gave me a tool, you just gave me a tool that I
• 27:41
  can use in other times, other instances as well.
• 27:44
  And I just used it right now and I applied it right here.
• 27:46
  And I feel like, you know what, I don't always need to run to a
• 27:48
  rabbi about things because I have the capabilities of making
• 27:52
  decisions based on my experiences in my life and based
• 27:55
  on what I value and does it apply to that.
• 27:58
  And I think that that's very useful.
• 28:00
  It's going to serve me very well and I, I appreciate that.
• 28:02
  That's amazing. Mike, a little breakthrough
• 28:05
  moment over here. What do you think?
• 28:07
  What do you think? It was a little easier for me
• 28:09
  because I have experience with Rabbi Spivak and understanding
• 28:12
  the tools that he gives me because I've known him for a
• 28:14
  number of years now. And you've given me tools in the
• 28:17
  past and which you couldn't have said it better.
• 28:20
  You didn't just think about what he said and now you just said
• 28:23
  the answer. He gave you a tool, that tool of
• 28:25
  understanding the should versus will, right.
• 28:28
  Meaning is it my desire I have to confess something?
• 28:31
  Yeah. Go ahead.
• 28:32
  Will and desire are two different things.
• 28:33
  We can talk about that later. I had to throw that in there
• 28:36
  because we all have desires that are not our will.
• 28:39
  Right. Not our true will, Right?
• 28:41
  Right. Are not are not what we choose
• 28:42
  to do. We desire it because we're I.
• 28:44
  Forget the word desire, we desire.
• 28:46
  Yeah, I agree with that. I'm just going to say like this.
• 28:48
  I used to go to every single wedding.
• 28:51
  I used to go to every single bar mitzvah.
• 28:53
  I used to go to every single chevre broche.
• 28:55
  So I felt bad, I felt guilty. And then finally, my wife one
• 28:58
  day tells me she goes, do you want to?
• 29:01
  She literally said it, but she didn't come from the idea of the
• 29:04
  tool that you're saying now. She came from a practicality.
• 29:07
  Like what are you doing to yourself?
• 29:09
  Go if you want to. And then I every time now I go
• 29:11
  to a wedding or a bar mitzvah or I think, do I want to go here?
• 29:14
  Is this friend important enough for me to fly in?
• 29:17
  Do I need to drive an hour? Should I right versus versus
• 29:21
  will I, It's it changed my life from that perspective.
• 29:24
  So I'm now I'm realizing that tool and I need to use it even
• 29:27
  more. Of course sometimes I'd like to
• 29:28
  fly in, but I can't because I'm I'm with my kids doing something
• 29:31
  else. You choose not to because I
• 29:33
  choose to stay with your kids, right?
• 29:34
  Something. Exactly.
• 29:35
  Has to be. That's my value, that's what.
• 29:37
  I want to. Do you're choosing that's?
• 29:38
  What I'm choosing to do based on my values right should be about
• 29:41
  love it. Are your values and follow that
• 29:45
  and then even if you don't. I don't want to go to bar
• 29:47
  mitzvah tonight because I'm not in the mood, but I'd rather be
• 29:49
  home watching the show instead of.
• 29:51
  Going whoa, whoa, is that your value?
• 29:53
  That's a that's a desire. That's a that's.
• 29:55
  Good thinking what what is my my value is community love
• 29:58
  community. It's very important.
• 29:59
  And I know if I go to this person's bar mitzvah, it's going
• 30:02
  to bring a smile to his face. And also when I make a bar
• 30:05
  mitzvah, he's going to come to me and bring a smile to my face.
• 30:07
  So community is very important to me.
• 30:08
  So now I want to go, even though I'm not in the mood, I want to
• 30:12
  go because I predicated it on what my actual values are.
• 30:16
  Let's do that. This is game changing, by the
• 30:18
  way. Absolutely.
• 30:19
  I'm going to institute this in so many figures that going
• 30:21
  forward, and you know what? I'm going to be happier for it.
• 30:24
  You're definitely going to be happier for it, and the positive
• 30:27
  things that you do are going to be with a different energy when
• 30:31
  you do something positive because you should or because
• 30:34
  you have to, right? So what have you accomplished in
• 30:38
  your mind? I escaped blame.
• 30:42
  I freed myself from guilt, right?
• 30:45
  Freed yourself from guilt. So what did I accomplish?
• 30:48
  What was tonight about freeing myself from guilt?
• 30:51
  What does that fill me with him when I'm freed from guilt?
• 30:54
  When I say one second, there's no I'm not operating in the
• 30:57
  guilt sphere and I'm going to do the same exact thing from a
• 31:02
  place of a values based choice. Now, I didn't escape guilt.
• 31:08
  I lived my values that I wanted to live.
• 31:12
  I'm filled with enormous positive feeling about my life
• 31:16
  and about what I'm doing. Can we talk about Jewish guilt
• 31:18
  for a second? Can we talk about that for a
• 31:20
  second? Because that's a real thing, OK.
• 31:23
  And all of us have a Jewish guilt.
• 31:24
  Maybe the barometer for some are 90%, some are 1000%.
• 31:29
  But everybody's got little Jewish guilt.
• 31:30
  And I can't imagine it's a good thing because Jewish guilt is
• 31:33
  one of those things that really makes people very down and very
• 31:38
  depressed because let's face it, our whole lives is about living
• 31:41
  for God. And it's all about Judaism and
• 31:43
  doing the right thing. And if you're not doing the
• 31:45
  right thing today, then you better work on yourself to start
• 31:47
  doing the right thing, right? And if you're not, it makes you
• 31:50
  feel less than, it makes you feel unworthy.
• 31:52
  I want to, I want to share something with you.
• 31:54
  I want to share something with you both, Michael, you know,
• 31:55
  because we talk about this sometimes, but I'm going to
• 31:57
  share something, OK? I have Jewish guilt to the point
• 32:01
  that I stopped doing certain things because I don't feel
• 32:05
  qualified. I'll give you an example.
• 32:07
  Like when I go to school, right, I used to sometimes stop in, you
• 32:11
  know, down for the Ahmed, you know, lead the the synagogue in
• 32:15
  prayers for those that don't know what that means.
• 32:17
  And I always felt like somebody who does that needs to be, you
• 32:21
  know, someone who's, I guess you know who's who's, I don't want
• 32:25
  to say a very righteous person, but you have to, you know,
• 32:28
  you're, it's a big responsibility.
• 32:29
  You're you're, you're leading other people, right?
• 32:32
  So I stopped doing it. I stopped doing it because I
• 32:35
  don't feel like I'm the best, You know, I'm, I'm not a bad
• 32:38
  Jew. I'm not a great Jew.
• 32:39
  I'm average at best, maybe even some part sometimes.
• 32:42
  That's Jewish guilt to me, right?
• 32:44
  That's 100% Jewish guilt. And I'm probably wrong.
• 32:47
  I'm probably wrong. And I even mentioned this one
• 32:49
  time to my rabbi and they even told him about this and he
• 32:52
  looked at me like, what are you doing?
• 32:53
  What are you talking about? That's fine, don't worry about
• 32:55
  it. But I I still don't feel worthy.
• 32:57
  And that's just one example. And there were others as well.
• 32:59
  And Jewish guilt, and it brings people down.
• 33:02
  It's demoralizing. And you know, it doesn't just
• 33:04
  affect you, it probably affects your family, it affects your
• 33:07
  friends because it has a rebounding effect, right?
• 33:10
  And everybody starts suffering from it.
• 33:12
  So Jewish guilt, I think is a huge trigger word.
• 33:14
  I think it's something that snowballs and has a big effect
• 33:17
  on you and your life and other people around you.
• 33:19
  How do we deal with that? How do we get rid of that?
• 33:21
  How do we how do we minimize it? How do I manage Jewish guilt?
• 33:27
  You're speaking to a topic about which I I'm so passionate.
• 33:30
  I'm so glad you brought that up. One of the niche clienteles that
• 33:35
  I that I service in my therapy practice are young men who can't
• 33:42
  get out of bed in the morning, whether they're in yeshiva or
• 33:46
  post yeshiva. You know, literally more
• 33:50
  commonly in yeshiva's where you know the direct consequences,
• 33:54
  don't, you know, attack you so much guys who are getting out of
• 33:58
  bed 3:00 in the afternoon. And I'm not exaggerating, right?
• 34:02
  And what is the go to response to the people in their lives,
• 34:07
  their parents, the the mashiach or abayim in their yeshiva?
• 34:13
  The go to response is to ramp up the pressure and the guilt,
• 34:17
  right? If you would want, you would get
• 34:20
  up. You obviously don't.
• 34:22
  And, And if you had something that was important to you, you'd
• 34:25
  get up. If I ramp up the pressure, I'm
• 34:27
  going to knost you. I'm going to find you.
• 34:29
  I'm going to make you feel lousy about yourself.
• 34:32
  I hear those voices, Michael. Do you hear them?
• 34:34
  Do you remember those voices? I remember right.
• 34:36
  We all know. Yeah, We all have that, Yeah.
• 34:39
  So I, I, I do a lot of work with these clients and, and, and
• 34:42
  thank God, you know, I can say that we've accomplished a lot of
• 34:46
  great things. These young men who who we work
• 34:48
  together, the changes they're able to make are, are really
• 34:52
  life changing. So I once get a call from
• 34:55
  Mashiach in the yeshiva and he saw one of his students who he's
• 35:00
  been been Hawking, you know, and trying to drill into the ground
• 35:04
  about this issue for years with no success.
• 35:08
  And within like 3-4 months, he went from getting out of bed at
• 35:11
  three O clock to getting out of bed every morning at like nine
• 35:14
  930. And then ultimately, you know,
• 35:18
  most mornings on time for, you know, for shockers, for the
• 35:20
  morning prayers in the yeshiva. Like, so he says, you got to
• 35:24
  tell me your secret sauce, right?
• 35:27
  So as you know, as a business person, like, uh oh, if I give
• 35:29
  away the trade secrets and I'm like, yeah, this one's safe, I
• 35:33
  could tell him he's not going to implement it.
• 35:35
  And I told him as much. I said, I'll tell you, but
• 35:37
  you're not going to do it. He said.
• 35:40
  I said to him, the first thing I told him was what time you get
• 35:44
  up in the morning. Doesn't matter.
• 35:47
  You want to get up, get up. You don't, don't.
• 35:51
  We ramped down the pressure. We created a vacuum of guilt, of
• 35:58
  anxiety and all the things guilt brings.
• 36:03
  Anxiety, Anxiety that I'm going to be rejected, that I'm going
• 36:06
  to be looked down upon, right? There's two things we do with
• 36:11
  things that make us anxious. Something makes you anxious.
• 36:14
  You got 2 plays in your playbook, You ready?
• 36:16
  Or at least two different books of plays.
• 36:20
  We try to control it or we avoid it.
• 36:24
  That's what we do with the things that make us anxious.
• 36:26
  So the first thing we'll do is, OK, I'm going to make a log and
• 36:29
  I'm going to write down one time I went to sleep and one time I
• 36:31
  wake up and there's going to be a whole system in place and I'm
• 36:34
  going to give myself this reward and I'm going to set a perfect
• 36:37
  amount of control. When that doesn't work, I avoid
• 36:42
  it. Now what am I avoiding the whole
• 36:44
  anxious setting? What's the anxious setting?
• 36:46
  I'm going to walk into the bass matterish for chakras.
• 36:48
  And I'm going to be, you know, 20 minutes late and, and then
• 36:53
  Mashkyak is going to be looking at his watch like this and he's
• 36:56
  going to look at me and I'm going to feel right, like a
• 36:59
  worthless piece. I, I can't deal with that, the
• 37:02
  ink and then the whole idea of getting up.
• 37:04
  Am I going to be on time? That whole thought process,
• 37:07
  right? So my my subconscious brain is
• 37:11
  just going to avoid the whole thing.
• 37:13
  You know, these guys say like they will tell me that you're
• 37:16
  not trying and he's to try harder.
• 37:17
  I'm trying so hard and like, it's the greatest injustice,
• 37:20
  right? You're trying.
• 37:22
  You don't know what to do because your brain is avoiding a
• 37:25
  situation that is just too intense.
• 37:29
  So we have to create a vacuum of the intensity of a vacuum of the
• 37:33
  guilt, a vacuum of the anxiety. And in that vacuum, Will Rutzone
• 37:39
  can take root. You know you guys are business
• 37:44
  people, so let's put it in business terms.
• 37:46
  Please yeah, you're right. That's that's kind of how we
• 37:49
  understand things a lot better and and not people that earn
• 37:52
  into business is one somebody's into sports.
• 37:54
  So it's very important to humanize things and to find
• 37:58
  where that sweet spot is for someone so they can understand
• 38:00
  it in layman's terms, right. Like what you're saying that, by
• 38:03
  the way, was amazing and I'm I'm with you, but you didn't bring
• 38:06
  it home yet. You didn't bring it home yet.
• 38:08
  And I, and I love that you right away said, let me now give you
• 38:11
  another version that you you can understand.
• 38:13
  Business terms. Here we go.
• 38:16
  When you're operating in the guilt sphere, you're always
• 38:19
  operating in the red, right? The guilt sphere says what?
• 38:23
  What is baseline? What is that zero?
• 38:26
  What is that zero line on the balance sheet?
• 38:30
  The zero line is perfection. If I'm perfect, I'm baseline.
• 38:35
  I'm at 0. I'm at where I'm supposed to be
• 38:37
  at the starting point. Who's perfect?
• 38:40
  Who has all their ducks lined up?
• 38:42
  Who? Who gets it all right?
• 38:44
  Who Stephen? Stephen does.
• 38:46
  Well, besides Stephen, right? Nobody.
• 38:49
  Right. So therefore, what's defining
• 38:51
  me? My debt?
• 38:53
  OK, when you're in the red, what's the thing on your mind
• 38:57
  the entire day? How in the red am I right?
• 39:01
  And if I manage one day or one week to make everything perfect,
• 39:06
  what do I say? I'm out of debt.
• 39:10
  I'm not in the red anymore. Is there anything positive?
• 39:14
  Absolutely not. Lack of negative.
• 39:16
  Right. It's, it's all about lack of
• 39:17
  negative. So there's this total focus on
• 39:20
  the negative, the negative, more negative, less negative, right.
• 39:23
  I'm always in the red when the baseline, when that zero line
• 39:28
  on, on, on on the balance sheet is where I am right now,
• 39:34
  wherever that is. That is today's starting point.
• 39:39
  That's today's baseline. Now where do I want to go?
• 39:44
  I'm free to go wherever I want. Where does my will take me?
• 39:47
  What am I? Do I want to get up for chakras?
• 39:51
  Well, do I put value into davening, into being in the shul
• 39:57
  together with the community or what?
• 39:59
  Any other reason that I put value to it, I'll do it.
• 40:01
  And if I don't, I'll use my time and energy on something that is
• 40:05
  in line with my values, right? So the Jewish guilt, right?
• 40:10
  There's always going to be something to be guilty about.
• 40:13
  There's always going to be a reason to be in the red.
• 40:16
  And when we're focused on that, what happened to all the things
• 40:18
  I'm doing, right? What happened to all the things
• 40:21
  that that are valuable and meaningful about what I'm doing,
• 40:24
  right? They're not there.
• 40:26
  The only thing that defines me is that red is that debt?
• 40:32
  Is that flaw? Is that fault?
• 40:35
  So who could live like that? Now I'm so anxious because
• 40:39
  there's always a reason for me to be rejected and put down and,
• 40:43
  and and and ashamed. So now I'm so anxious about
• 40:46
  that. What am I going to do?
• 40:47
  I'm going to avoid. I'm going to check out right SO.
• 40:51
  Enter avoid. That now becomes the next coping
• 40:55
  mechanism because of all that guilt that we've been compiling
• 41:00
  and just been collecting over the years.
• 41:03
  Now the answer is let's avoid those things because it's not
• 41:07
  working out for me and it's not a feel that.
• 41:08
  Way and it's not a conscious decision it's it's a it's a
• 41:11
  preservation mode right we are programmed to avoid the things
• 41:17
  that are dangerous, right it's reflexual, right it's a reflex
• 41:22
  so when it feels dangerous on an emotional level right the
• 41:26
  amygdala in our brain which is there to find the dangerous
• 41:29
  things and alert it to us it doesn't distinguish between
• 41:32
  physical dangers like a bear jumping out of the woods and and
• 41:35
  you know and, and having me for lunch or the emotional danger of
• 41:40
  of being looked down upon and shunned from the group right so
• 41:45
  I have to avoid the whole situation where I'm anxious
• 41:49
  about being shunned so I'm not going to show which.
• 41:52
  Was another problem. You just went from one problem
• 41:54
  to now a second problem. Feeling guilty is no good and
• 41:57
  avoiding is no good, but that's ultimately like you said.
• 42:00
  Those are the two things. OK, so we've you've heightens
• 42:03
  the the problem, what's going on and what people go through,
• 42:07
  right, You've and very well, I may add.
• 42:09
  So now comes the real question here.
• 42:12
  Let's bring this home. What are we simple people?
• 42:15
  What do we do? How do we not have the guilt and
• 42:18
  not avoid because I'm with you like I'm thinking about my own
• 42:21
  son. I'm trying to apply this to
• 42:22
  myself and everybody that's listening should do the same.
• 42:24
  Apply it to yourself. Where are your shortcomings and
• 42:26
  where do you feel like maybe you're you're causing somebody
• 42:29
  else to have? I'm thinking about my kid, like
• 42:30
  I don't have a 13 year old, 14 year old boy, but I'm thinking
• 42:33
  if I did and he's sleeping till, you know, two in the afternoon,
• 42:36
  am I going to get down his back? Am I going to start?
• 42:38
  No, I'm not going to chastise him.
• 42:39
  I'm going to do what you're saying.
• 42:40
  I'm going to lower the temperature in the room.
• 42:42
  I'm going to make sure he doesn't feel like I'm just, you
• 42:45
  know, putting anxiety on him. And I want him to have that
• 42:49
  space so he doesn't have to avoid, so he doesn't have to
• 42:51
  check out from everything else that we have.
• 42:53
  And that what I'm telling him and what else is important.
• 42:55
  I want to make sure that I'm creating a safer.
• 42:57
  So the guilt I don't want him to have.
• 42:59
  I don't want to do it only because his father's telling
• 43:01
  him. His Rebbe's telling him because
• 43:02
  that's what's normal in this community.
• 43:03
  Because if he comes to Shrew late, he feels like an outcast
• 43:06
  because everybody's on time, only he's late.
• 43:07
  He feels very uncomfortable, the guilt.
• 43:09
  So what does he do? I'm not going to Shrew at all.
• 43:11
  I don't want to have that pressure.
• 43:13
  What does he do? He's going to avoid.
• 43:15
  I don't want to avoid either. I'm thinking about my own kid,
• 43:17
  right? I'm thinking I don't want him to
• 43:18
  be unhappy. I think every parent wants their
• 43:20
  children to be happy. Most important thing.
• 43:23
  So I want to answer he can't. I don't want to give him the
• 43:25
  guilt and I don't want to avoid or by Spivak.
• 43:27
  Help us what comes next? OK, so you threw two things in
• 43:33
  there that have to be separated. 1 is how do we deal with it in
• 43:37
  ourselves? And then you started broaching
• 43:40
  the topic of parenting and how do we raise our kids in that
• 43:43
  healthy way? OK, but that's not limited to
• 43:46
  parents, to the children, anything saying from one person
• 43:48
  to another? Person, then how do we deal with
• 43:50
  ourselves and how do we not give it off to other people?
• 43:52
  Correct. Those are two different
• 43:53
  questions. You're saying there's a very
• 43:55
  specific thing when it comes to parents, children?
• 43:57
  Shielding ourselves from the guilt and the negativity that's
• 44:00
  being thrown on us and living in a positive sphere, right, is one
• 44:05
  question. And then how do we create a
• 44:07
  positive sphere and not a guilt sphere for other people around
• 44:12
  us? That's a different thing.
• 44:13
  That's right. So let's.
• 44:14
  Stay in our lane where we started.
• 44:15
  Let's stay in our lane for ourselves.
• 44:17
  How do we avoid the guilt and then the avoiding for ourselves?
• 44:21
  So that's a complex question that every person is going to
• 44:25
  have their own journey on. And it really depends, you know,
• 44:29
  where did that guilt come from in your life and finding the
• 44:34
  courage to step outside of it. You know, somebody who comes
• 44:39
  from a background where that was the message they were given in
• 44:41
  the home and that's where the message they were given in
• 44:43
  school. That you only matter in as much
• 44:46
  as you meet up at with our expectations.
• 44:49
  And if you do everything the way we expect you to do it, you're
• 44:52
  passable, right? Nothing more, just passable.
• 44:57
  And if you do things that are short of that, you're
• 45:02
  rejectable, right? So if that's the message you're
• 45:05
  giving. So there's a lot of internal
• 45:08
  work to become the voice of positivity that you perhaps
• 45:14
  didn't have to have the courage to say that I am going to reject
• 45:21
  those messages that I've been given and I have permission to
• 45:26
  reject them. I will be safe in rejecting
• 45:29
  them, right? You know, why is it that these
• 45:34
  messages are so deeply embedded in US, right?
• 45:37
  It's a very deep psychological reason why particularly the
• 45:40
  messages of parents are so hard to step outside of, right?
• 45:46
  When you're three years old, can you navigate this world on your
• 45:51
  own? No, no.
• 45:52
  If you were left to your own devices, you'd have nothing to
• 45:55
  eat, nothing to wear. You'd die.
• 45:57
  No shelter. You would die.
• 45:59
  Does a three-year old typically know that?
• 46:01
  No, that they would die if. They're left alone that that
• 46:05
  they must have caretakers, otherwise they're in big
• 46:09
  trouble. I don't think they comprehend it
• 46:10
  yet at that age. But is it instinctual?
• 46:13
  Oh yeah, maybe, yes, you could say it's instinctual.
• 46:15
  What happens if a three-year old feels like they're lost and
• 46:18
  nobody's around them? What happens?
• 46:19
  He'll he'll scream, scream, ask for help because they don't know
• 46:22
  how to take care of him. Because I'm going to die.
• 46:24
  But naturally, right? Not a conscious who's going to
• 46:26
  give me food? Who's going to give me clothes,
• 46:29
  right? They start screaming and crying,
• 46:31
  right? Until some kind person finds
• 46:33
  them and tries to calm them down.
• 46:34
  Let's find your parents, right? Why?
• 46:37
  Because instinctually they know that without parents to provide
• 46:42
  them with food, clothing, shelter, nurturing, they're
• 46:45
  dead. And that's where it starts.
• 46:48
  So now when you have a parent who gives over a negative
• 46:53
  message about the child, right? About their self worth, about
• 46:59
  what they need to do to be acceptable or anything like
• 47:01
  that, that's a perhaps less than ideal message or a corrupt and
• 47:07
  dysfunctional message. It's a hurtful message, right?
• 47:11
  But the child has two options. Option A is to see it for what
• 47:16
  it is, right? Maybe the child's already 8
• 47:19
  years old and knows that they're not worthless, knows that
• 47:23
  everything. But if I see it for what it is,
• 47:27
  what does that mean about my parents?
• 47:30
  That they're not the greatest, the best, the biggest, the
• 47:32
  strongest, the smartest? Like every child will scream
• 47:35
  through the schoolyard, right? Right.
• 47:38
  My parents are the best and the greatest, right?
• 47:40
  They're really. They're flawed, they're flawed,
• 47:43
  they made mistakes, they're human.
• 47:45
  Or worse, they're they're abusive.
• 47:47
  They. Were wrong.
• 47:48
  Right. They're wrong.
• 47:48
  They were downright wrong, Right?
• 47:51
  What does that mean about my survival?
• 47:53
  To recognize and take in that my parents are capable of those
• 47:57
  types of mistakes, right? It needs my survival's in
• 48:01
  jeopardy. That's way too intense.
• 48:05
  So what's the other option? My parents are the smartest.
• 48:08
  They are the greatest. And if they tell me that I'm
• 48:12
  only acceptable under these conditions.
• 48:14
  That's what I'm going to do that you're perpetuating what the
• 48:18
  problem was from the beginning and that's all you know, but and
• 48:21
  you're not stepping outside of what the real problem was my.
• 48:24
  Survival depends on that being the truth, right?
• 48:27
  So now I've internalized that message.
• 48:31
  So now it's 20 years later. It's 30 years later, right?
• 48:34
  And I find myself living in this shame and guilt cycle, right?
• 48:39
  Why? Because at five years old, my
• 48:43
  survival depended on my believing that this was truth.
• 48:47
  So I still believe it's truth. And having the courage to go and
• 48:51
  give yourself a new message and step out of that message, that
• 48:54
  negative message, that takes a lot of courage, a lot of
• 48:58
  internal work and a lot of work. And it's going to come with some
• 49:02
  pain of. Course, because nothing good, no
• 49:06
  pain. No pain is going to come with
• 49:08
  pain. Saying, you know, accepting a
• 49:11
  truth that I've been shutting out my whole life and saying no.
• 49:16
  The truth is that this painful thing is real.
• 49:19
  Why are humans so complex? Can you believe?
• 49:21
  I mean, think about it, We're wired in such ways that we are.
• 49:26
  And then there are people who want to tell us that this all
• 49:28
  just happened. There was a Big Bang, and one
• 49:31
  day this all just happened. We're that lucky.
• 49:34
  We were that lucky that these intricate details, I mean,
• 49:38
  people are such fickle beans, but were constructed of
• 49:41
  thousands and thousands of different components and how
• 49:44
  many billions, billions, billions of things, but this all
• 49:48
  just happened. Look, I'm not, you know, I like
• 49:50
  I just mentioned them. I'm an OK Jew.
• 49:52
  I do my best. But the the things that were the
• 49:54
  people are out there that just say that there's there's
• 49:57
  nothing. There's there's no higher being,
• 49:59
  there's no divine power. There's no It's mind boggling to
• 50:03
  me. I'm, I'm, I'm going to go back.
• 50:04
  I'm not letting you off the hook so easily.
• 50:06
  OK? You just said, you repeated.
• 50:08
  I'm an OK Jew. I do my best.
• 50:10
  Yeah. That assessment is based on
• 50:13
  what? Based on I understand what the
• 50:17
  expectations are in order to be a a good Jew.
• 50:20
  I'll give you an example. Stop right there.
• 50:22
  I don't meet those those those lines.
• 50:24
  I don't meet those who. Told you that that is the
• 50:27
  expectation to be a good Jew. That's how it who told me like
• 50:31
  specifically? Where did you adopt that message
• 50:35
  that now you holdings the people?
• 50:37
  So now you are defined not by all the amazing things that you
• 50:41
  do. You are defining yourself by how
• 50:44
  short you're falling about the message that you got of how you
• 50:47
  should be. Oh, this is what I should be.
• 50:51
  And compared to that, I'm OK, right?
• 50:54
  Do you do amazing things in this world?
• 50:56
  I sure do. So I absolutely do.
• 50:59
  There are things that I do very, very well, yes.
• 51:01
  So why are you OK? Because there's a gap between
• 51:04
  you and where you should be? Why are you not an amazing
• 51:08
  person for the amazing things that you do?
• 51:11
  I think because I'm ranking all the different things maybe that
• 51:14
  I do and the beautiful things that I do maybe is more common
• 51:17
  found than others and therefore I'm not extra special because of
• 51:20
  it. But then there are certain areas
• 51:22
  where I fall short and I think it's high up in the rankings
• 51:25
  again, because that's what I was told.
• 51:26
  I don't know this on my own. I just know that if you don't
• 51:29
  dive in three times a day, right, morning, afternoon, at
• 51:32
  night, then that's like a baseline of being a good Jew, a
• 51:35
  religious Jew at least. I don't do that.
• 51:37
  I don't do that. So to me, I look at myself that
• 51:40
  I'm falling that area and that's an important one.
• 51:42
  That's a big one. It's a really, really big one.
• 51:44
  Even though I give a ton of charity and, and I, I, I can't
• 51:47
  say no to people. Somebody asked me for some, I
• 51:49
  need to help them, right? That's amazing.
• 51:50
  It's very nice. A lot of people who do that as
• 51:52
  well. There are a lot fewer people who
• 51:55
  every day three times they consistently, they don't miss.
• 51:57
  They don't miss. They don't miss.
• 51:58
  I know a lot of my friends that do that and I, I look up to it.
• 52:01
  It's amazing, but I don't do that.
• 52:02
  So I tell myself I'm not as good.
• 52:05
  Right now imagine that you grew up in a culture that everybody
• 52:12
  gives charity. You give a lot of what you do.
• 52:15
  You're right. You help people when they ask.
• 52:16
  That's the baseline. And it's it's also a nice thing
• 52:19
  to dive in three times a day. Oh my God.
• 52:21
  I'd be I'd. Have so much more confidence.
• 52:23
  So I'd feel great about myself, right?
• 52:25
  So you have you, you, you, you cheapen yourself image because
• 52:32
  of the cultural message that you've taken in about where you
• 52:36
  should be, right? Where should you be?
• 52:41
  Well, everybody speed back. I mean, let's be realistic.
• 52:44
  Let's not pretend like like this is coming out of nowhere.
• 52:47
  I mean, we've all been through the same systems and this is
• 52:50
  what's been going on for decades and thousands of years.
• 52:53
  This is what's been happening. We've all created in Judaism, in
• 52:56
  our communities, it's all been created sort of that
• 52:58
  establishment, right? And everything comes from there,
• 53:02
  right? And from there, guys like me, we
• 53:04
  don't have the decision making power.
• 53:05
  We've fallen line. We just, we're a part of the
• 53:07
  system, all of us. We're a part of the system.
• 53:09
  So where does it come from? This is probably a question
• 53:12
  better suited for some of the elites, some of the grand
• 53:15
  rabbis, some of the people that you know, are, are responsible
• 53:18
  for cultivating the system. But but that is the world, the
• 53:21
  system that we live. In that is the message that a
• 53:25
  big part of Orthodox right wing Jewish culture does give Yes.
• 53:32
  How much do you want to frame that or use that as the
• 53:37
  framework for how you see yourself and how you choose to
• 53:39
  live your life? That is up to you.
• 53:42
  You don't have a choice of what you know at this point in your
• 53:46
  life. You don't have a choice of what
• 53:47
  the message being preached by by society might be.
• 53:53
  But you have a choice to say, let me identify the values by
• 53:57
  which I want to live and try every day to live them.
• 54:01
  And the more I live my values, the more you know I'm
• 54:06
  encouraged, and in the ways that I'm not yet living up to the
• 54:09
  values the way I want to. I'll try more tomorrow.
• 54:13
  Yeah, I've, I've started doing that a lot and for the most part
• 54:16
  I'm very content with it. I have that moxie, you know, I
• 54:19
  have that arrogance that, you know, I, I beat to my own drum
• 54:22
  for the most part and, and I'm content with it.
• 54:25
  But there is still a small part that still feels a little bit of
• 54:27
  the guilt and all that. But I, I'm, I'm speaking about
• 54:30
  this because I know there are a lot of people out there that are
• 54:33
  not happy as they could be because they're letting all the
• 54:36
  stuff weigh them down. And what you're saying is very,
• 54:38
  very sound advice. You know what it really tells
• 54:40
  me, Michael, you always say this.
• 54:41
  And Michael's been very oddly quiet, by the way, throughout
• 54:44
  all this. I don't know what's going on
• 54:45
  here. There's a lot of things spinning
• 54:46
  in his head for sure. But Michael is a very, very big
• 54:49
  fan of therapy. He really believes, and I, I
• 54:52
  agree with him. I think that everybody, when
• 54:54
  they hear the word therapy, you know, what they think of, they
• 54:56
  think of, oh, I have like this embarrassing problem that I have
• 54:58
  to now address. And that's such a negative
• 55:01
  stigma. But.
• 55:01
  Is there something wrong with these?
• 55:03
  Wrong with me? Yeah.
• 55:04
  There's something wrong with all of us.
• 55:06
  We're all floored and we all are.
• 55:07
  You know, we're designed to be problematic and we need to fix
• 55:11
  ourselves and make ourselves as best as we possibly can, which
• 55:13
  means everybody can get help. Everybody can seek that counsel
• 55:15
  and have have a teammate. No good sport ever exists
• 55:19
  without teammates. You got to have a coach, you got
• 55:21
  to have a a captain, that of somebody that's steering the
• 55:23
  ship. That's therapy.
• 55:24
  That's what it is. So we're a big fans of that.
• 55:27
  We always, we always say. This afternoon, this afternoon I
• 55:30
  will be on somebody else's couch.
• 55:32
  Beautiful. Once a week I I don't miss my
• 55:34
  session. Right, Even the people that are
• 55:35
  giving the therapeutics, especially the people that are
• 55:38
  especially because I, I don't want to have somebody telling me
• 55:41
  if they're not worked out themselves, if they're not
• 55:43
  addressing their own demons, I don't want to take it back, Mr.
• 55:46
  Person. So I think it's a beautiful
• 55:47
  thing. And I think, Michael, that we
• 55:49
  should start like this thing like in schools, there should be
• 55:52
  in elementary schools. This is a crazy idea, by the
• 55:53
  way. This is a crazy idea, but it
• 55:55
  might not be so crazy after this conversation.
• 55:57
  It might not be so crazy. Let's start a thing that there's
• 55:59
  English, there's science, there's math, there's Lumuda
• 56:02
  Kridesh, right? There's there's home, there's
• 56:04
  Gomar, whatever. And then there is counsel,
• 56:07
  therapy, one-on-one. Every kid must go once a week,
• 56:11
  twice a week, whatever it is, they must go.
• 56:12
  It's a class. It's a class.
• 56:13
  It's gym. You got 1/2 an hour gym for
• 56:15
  exercise, physical exercise. What about mental exercise?
• 56:19
  What about preventing mental health before it happens?
• 56:21
  When they're 30 years old, when they're 40 years old, 50 years
• 56:24
  old people are still struggling. Let's attack this from the roots
• 56:28
  like you're saying it happens something when they're younger
• 56:31
  and as they're progressing. Let's attack it at the root
• 56:33
  cause. Why are we not instituting this?
• 56:36
  Can you help us? So I love the idea.
• 56:39
  I love the idea that every child should have a weekly counseling
• 56:42
  session. We don't have to call it
• 56:43
  therapy, counseling. Fantastic.
• 56:48
  Listen, the reason the greatest obstacle to that and maybe the
• 56:53
  top two fighting off of the obstacle are a stigma.
• 56:56
  But I think even bigger than that would be funding.
• 56:58
  Right. Funding.
• 56:59
  Yeah. We find money for things we care
• 57:01
  about. I don't want to hear funding as
• 57:02
  an excuse, please. OK.
• 57:04
  You. But you, you have any idea of
• 57:05
  the kind of things that are in our budget to run this country?
• 57:08
  You know, you know, every year Congress has to put out a whole
• 57:09
  budget about, you know, what we need to spend money.
• 57:11
  Do you have any idea of the things that they put on there
• 57:13
  and somehow they find the money for these weird, wacky,
• 57:16
  ridiculous things? Our kids, this is our future.
• 57:19
  This is the next generation money.
• 57:22
  Yeah, money. This the three of us in this
• 57:24
  room, we're going to we're going to raise somebody.
• 57:27
  Somebody wants to execute this idea and somebody wants to take
• 57:29
  this to the next level. I promise you, there will be the
• 57:33
  you build it and they will. Come so so in East Ramapo or any
• 57:36
  school district really, right? Students who have mental health
• 57:40
  issues that are interfering with their schooling, right?
• 57:43
  They get mandated therapy and just from that alone, right?
• 57:47
  Not just from that for a lot of things, right?
• 57:49
  The, you know, the East Ramapo school budget, you know, is, is
• 57:53
  a disaster, right? The the whole district is it.
• 57:57
  You know, there are times my wife who is an amazing
• 57:59
  occupational therapist. Oh, my wife too.
• 58:02
  Yeah, my wife always says O TS is like, well, I'm going to say
• 58:05
  what I have to read because I I might just dismantle.
• 58:07
  You're about to, so go ahead. She has spent a lot of her
• 58:10
  career in the school district working with the school
• 58:12
  district. And there are times when if she
• 58:15
  has to print out a worksheet for the kids to do, she has to print
• 58:19
  it at home because there isn't any paper left in the budget.
• 58:23
  Stop, right. The school district is a
• 58:24
  nightmare. So if you're going to then start
• 58:28
  introducing, you know, an individual therapy session once
• 58:33
  a week for every student. Yeah.
• 58:34
  I mean, privately funded, we're going to fund this private,
• 58:37
  We're not going to rely on the government who does nothing for
• 58:39
  us. We're not going to rely on them.
• 58:41
  By the way, one of the things Aaron Wieder, who was on our
• 58:43
  show a couple of podcasts ago, told us that one of the one of
• 58:47
  the issues that he's running for is to protect the education to
• 58:52
  remain in the hands of the parents in the state of New
• 58:54
  York. Because right now it's shifting
• 58:56
  in a way that the the the local government is going to have a
• 58:59
  lot more clout on what type of education should be infiltrating
• 59:02
  into our private schools, not just in the public.
• 59:04
  Be careful if you want my opinion on this.
• 59:06
  Well, I guess this is another topic that we could talk about,
• 59:08
  but he's fighting for this. That's one of the issues he's
• 59:10
  standing on. Because.
• 59:12
  Because in a lot of ways I'm on the other side of that issue.
• 59:14
  We want. To give more control to the
• 59:16
  officials of what should be taught in a school versus what
• 59:19
  parents think. Obviously that's not ideal, OK?
• 59:23
  But, and I'm going to say this unequivocally, the disastrous
• 59:29
  education that many students are getting where many of them leave
• 59:34
  school with zero prospects of functioning in the secular world
• 59:40
  in business or in a career, and their life choices are Hanford.
• 59:46
  And sure, you can try out many examples of people who are
• 59:49
  tremendous successes in business and things, but the the number
• 59:53
  of kids who are having their education robbed from them so
• 59:56
  that their entire lives are spent in menial labor and having
• 1:00:00
  to just eke out a living. Right is child abuse.
• 1:00:05
  When you rob a child of basic education to know English, to
• 1:00:10
  know math, to know the functioning studies that you
• 1:00:14
  have to function in society, and you say, no, we're going to send
• 1:00:17
  you out at 18 years old knowing nothing.
• 1:00:20
  You can't put together a coherent sentence.
• 1:00:21
  That's criminal. You can't, you can't handle and,
• 1:00:24
  and, and I'll listen, I'm not going to be politically correct.
• 1:00:28
  There are still way too many kids who are getting that
• 1:00:30
  education and Hashem says God says, who is going to stand up
• 1:00:35
  for my children, right? Is it going to be the leaders of
• 1:00:38
  the community? Is it going to be their parents?
• 1:00:41
  Is it going to be the educators? And not one of those people
• 1:00:45
  answers the call, right? So who steps up the most
• 1:00:50
  unlikely of heroes? Kathy Hochul.
• 1:00:54
  She's the only one answering God's call to make sure that
• 1:00:57
  kids who come out of a yeshiva should have basic education to
• 1:01:02
  function in society. She's the one right.
• 1:01:05
  And I'm not going to get into politics of what I think of her
• 1:01:07
  and her policies and as a candidate, but she is the only
• 1:01:11
  one answering the call, God's call, who's going to step up for
• 1:01:13
  my kids? So what's our response?
• 1:01:16
  Let's fight it. How dare she, how dare she try
• 1:01:20
  to stand up for Jewish kids getting a proper education so
• 1:01:24
  that they have career prospects, so that they can live a
• 1:01:27
  menschlock life and earn a menschlock living without being
• 1:01:29
  stressed about money from the time that they're 18 until the
• 1:01:32
  time that they that, that they leave the world.
• 1:01:37
  So I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan of of all of of of
• 1:01:42
  when our community shows that we have proper value that to make
• 1:01:49
  sure that no kid is going to be allowed to slip through without
• 1:01:53
  getting the education that they deserve.
• 1:01:55
  So then of course, who would want the government involvement?
• 1:01:58
  You know, it's like any other child abuse.
• 1:02:00
  Who wants the government getting involved in how kids are raised?
• 1:02:04
  Let parents raise the kids. But when, God forbid you have a
• 1:02:07
  parent that's abusing a child, you get involved.
• 1:02:10
  You need the government to get involved.
• 1:02:12
  OK, so when we have and I'm not going to give numbers, right,
• 1:02:15
  but I know I've spoken to to young men and women who look at
• 1:02:20
  me and say I'm 20 something and I don't know basic math.
• 1:02:24
  What am I supposed to do for a living, right?
• 1:02:26
  Or can't spell. And can't, I can't string a
• 1:02:29
  sentence together. I sit down for a job interview
• 1:02:31
  and I don't know how to sound like a Mensch, right?
• 1:02:34
  And they're crying. And the courageous ones will go
• 1:02:37
  to a school like RCC and take remedial everything and pull
• 1:02:41
  themselves up and make something to themselves.
• 1:02:44
  But not all of them have the fortitude to do that right?
• 1:02:48
  And I talk to them and I have them sitting at my Shabbos table
• 1:02:51
  telling me that this is that, this is their experience.
• 1:02:54
  So if the government are the only ones going to stand up for
• 1:02:57
  them. So be it, Rabbi Spivak, why
• 1:03:01
  don't you tell us how you really feel?
• 1:03:03
  Why? Why don't you, why don't you
• 1:03:04
  react, you know, share with us. You know how you feel on this
• 1:03:07
  top. But by the way, love it and I'm
• 1:03:10
  your biggest fan on this topic, as are many others.
• 1:03:12
  You're right, But I don't know if we we intended it this way.
• 1:03:16
  I mean, there's a line, obviously, that shouldn't be
• 1:03:18
  crossed. We agree that there has to be a
• 1:03:20
  education being provided to the children so they can function
• 1:03:23
  properly in our society and they can get a job.
• 1:03:25
  You know, how many of these kids can we ultimately support, you
• 1:03:28
  know, collectively starts adding up over time.
• 1:03:31
  You know, we're going to be outnumbered, right?
• 1:03:32
  We have to make especially, you know, in the, the ultra orthodox
• 1:03:36
  communities, you know, they're at a much more rapid pace and
• 1:03:39
  and you have your kids by the thousands every single, you
• 1:03:42
  know, year that they're, they're growing by.
• 1:03:45
  And if they're all going to be at the same limitations of what
• 1:03:47
  their education is like, there's going to be a limitation to what
• 1:03:50
  jobs they can get and they're going to they're going to all
• 1:03:52
  start depending on one another. And before, you're not going to
• 1:03:54
  be too many takers, more than givers.
• 1:03:56
  And it's good. You go to shul, right?
• 1:03:59
  And you're in shul in a weekday morning for 45 minutes, right?
• 1:04:04
  How many people are coming by? Because right?
• 1:04:09
  What do you want from me? But you also have to agree
• 1:04:11
  though, and I'm sure you do, is there's a certain limit to how
• 1:04:15
  much we want them to have control as to, for example, we
• 1:04:18
  agree that they should be taught some basic math.
• 1:04:20
  You know, beyond 7th grade, like a lot of schools, unfortunately,
• 1:04:23
  stop it at 7th grade. It's over high school, there's
• 1:04:25
  no math anymore. Now you're learning just all
• 1:04:27
  day, right? So if the if, if Kathy Hochul
• 1:04:30
  says that even from from 10th grade, from 9th grade to 12th
• 1:04:34
  grade, you have to have three hours of math and only two hours
• 1:04:38
  of your private studies, that's not OK.
• 1:04:41
  We don't need Kathy Hochul telling us, but meaning we as
• 1:04:43
  parents, we want this for our children.
• 1:04:45
  We want our children to be educated to be able to survive
• 1:04:47
  in the real world and thrive in the real world.
• 1:04:50
  No, you think that it's, it's many of us, many of us and most
• 1:04:54
  of us perhaps do. But you're saying in the ultra
• 1:04:56
  or they're talking about in the? Is that what we're talking
• 1:05:00
  about? Predominantly, but not 100%, but
• 1:05:02
  I would say predominantly. I I speak to the right, the
• 1:05:06
  parents are not pushing for their kids to get some are, some
• 1:05:10
  are and some isn't. That and is it not their right?
• 1:05:12
  What is that called child abusive.
• 1:05:13
  Let's say there's a Hasidic parent lose them wherever they
• 1:05:16
  live and they don't want their kid to learn English math.
• 1:05:19
  Is it their 8th grade? They don't want them.
• 1:05:22
  You're saying you're saying Kathy Hochul is standing up for
• 1:05:25
  God, that she's forcing this parent to let their children
• 1:05:28
  children learn math and English. Are you saying that?
• 1:05:31
  Is it a parent's right to turn out their child into adulthood
• 1:05:36
  completely ignorant of basic life education?
• 1:05:39
  I think not. But are we, are we OK to judge
• 1:05:42
  them to say that we want to actually now interfere with
• 1:05:46
  their parent decision, that I would think a parent has all the
• 1:05:48
  rights, but how far does it go? You're saying this is how far it
• 1:05:52
  goes, that in this instance, Kathy Hochul should absolutely
• 1:05:55
  be able to infiltrate the I just.
• 1:05:57
  Want to say at a minimum, I just want to say at a minimum, if
• 1:06:00
  they're funding, then yes, right.
• 1:06:01
  If the government is helping fund things, then they do have a
• 1:06:04
  right to say something. They're.
• 1:06:05
  Not funding the private schools. No, we're talking about them
• 1:06:07
  giving funding. They're giving funding for both.
• 1:06:09
  That's not the issue. No, no, no.
• 1:06:11
  No, it's part of it. It's a bit part.
• 1:06:13
  Of it you're saying even if I fund.
• 1:06:14
  I'm going to ask you to get involved if there's a culture,
• 1:06:17
  right? And there are cultures that
• 1:06:18
  believe that the way you raise children is you beat them with a
• 1:06:22
  stick, right? You cut a switch.
• 1:06:24
  And when a child misbehaves, you tell them go cut a switch and
• 1:06:27
  you get a switch, a thin stick, right?
• 1:06:29
  And they get whacked on their behind until they're bloody.
• 1:06:31
  Obviously we don't agree with you, right?
• 1:06:33
  We had rulers, by the way. Are we saying right?
• 1:06:36
  Are we saying that the government has the right to get
• 1:06:38
  involved in how I raise my child?
• 1:06:40
  I'm voting that government out if they don't.
• 1:06:42
  So so I equate it right. So no, if a person who's not
• 1:06:46
  getting their education is not, although is there plenty of
• 1:06:49
  physical abuse going on in in some of the shivers too that we
• 1:06:52
  that we like to think we're beyond.
• 1:06:54
  There's still plenty of that too, right?
• 1:06:56
  I've heard it, you know, from directly from the mouths of the
• 1:07:00
  kids and the adults who that's a separate topic, right?
• 1:07:04
  To be set out into the world at 1820, whatever age without basic
• 1:07:10
  math and English, to be able to sit in a job interview and get a
• 1:07:15
  job and dare I say pursue a further education for a
• 1:07:18
  specialty training right. That is not OK.
• 1:07:23
  It is not OK to abuse a child by by keeping them ignorant so that
• 1:07:29
  they have two choices of careers, both earning minimum
• 1:07:33
  wage or close to it so that their entire lives are going to
• 1:07:36
  be stressed above their heads about about finances.
• 1:07:40
  I think sure. What you were asking is what's
• 1:07:41
  basic. Is that what you're asking?
• 1:07:42
  You're asking who decides what's basic.
• 1:07:44
  Go back. Where's that line?
• 1:07:46
  Where's that line exactly? There's a line.
• 1:07:47
  OK, we don't agree there's a line.
• 1:07:49
  The question is, where's the line?
• 1:07:51
  We agree here. Yeah.
• 1:07:52
  What the rabbi saying is that unfortunately the reality is
• 1:07:55
  that not everybody does agree. There's a line, right?
• 1:07:57
  So that's a that's a big challenge.
• 1:07:58
  By the way, and there isn't a line, it is a Gray area, right
• 1:08:01
  Gray area. And if everyone was operating
• 1:08:04
  near or within the Gray, would be fine.
• 1:08:06
  OK, right, right. We're so far apart in some
• 1:08:08
  instances, you're right. Rabbi, this was very, very
• 1:08:10
  insightful. We have so much that we can
• 1:08:12
  learn from you. I feel like we could do this
• 1:08:13
  every day. The only problem is you're not
• 1:08:16
  cheap. But but I, I just want to finish
• 1:08:21
  this segment, this chapter of this discussion by saying that I
• 1:08:24
  was quiet a lot of the times because five years ago, I asked
• 1:08:27
  myself these questions that Ushi is talking about now.
• 1:08:29
  The guilt and the way we grew up.
• 1:08:31
  I'll never forget when I was a young boy, my, I think it was my
• 1:08:35
  father that used to like look at me when I yawned out loud like
• 1:08:38
  it was, it was not respectful. You know, he came from a very
• 1:08:40
  respectful, respectful family. Like you don't yawn out loud.
• 1:08:43
  And I'll never forget the the minute I bought my first house
• 1:08:45
  in Staten Island, I sat down on a folding chair and my wife
• 1:08:49
  looked at me and I said, finally I could be myself.
• 1:08:54
  And I so learning about the challenges of how we grew up
• 1:08:57
  and, and, and, you know, adapting those challenges and
• 1:09:00
  figuring out, you know, tools that we discussed was amazing.
• 1:09:03
  Thank you so much for coming. And I can't, I'm looking forward
• 1:09:06
  to the next segment where we talk about your experience of
• 1:09:09
  being a rabbi, integrating your family into the community and
• 1:09:12
  the things that we can learn from each other and grow.
• 1:09:14
  Thank you, Rabbi, It was an honor to have you here.
• 1:09:16
  It was an absolute pleasure and I look forward to continuing
• 1:09:19
  this. Conversation as long as we're
• 1:09:21
  continuing to grow.