Latest / First Thing Today with Joe Thomas / "Libel" (Tuesday, May 19, 2026, Hour 4)

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"Libel" (Tuesday, May 19, 2026, Hour 4) · First Thing Today with Joe Thomas

0:02
Speaker 1: To detain and defort German Japanese Italian immigrants doing World
0:08
Speaker 1: War eleven.
0:09
Speaker 2: Hundred to do list. Putting the radio on is the
0:12
Speaker 2: first thing today.
0:13
Speaker 3: So steal me step. You have a day at least
0:19
Speaker 3: for work when the sun comes up, drops a kid
0:21
Speaker 3: to school, joys everything a dream do all the jas
0:27
Speaker 3: needs no wonder Jose smile, he only expag.
0:36
Speaker 4: Jack, thank if for letting me be of service to
0:38
Speaker 4: you this morning.
0:40
Speaker 5: I want to be.
0:42
Speaker 6: You are a blessing for your attendance. We will tell
0:46
Speaker 6: you what went on last night. We will give you
0:48
Speaker 6: our analysis of it, but I also want to hear
0:51
Speaker 6: how it's impacting you where you are at four three
0:54
Speaker 6: four eight eight two four two one seven, The host
0:57
Speaker 6: of the Tom Drops Bombs video pot casts on YouTube.
1:02
Speaker 6: Former congressman, former document well, I guess you are you're
1:04
Speaker 6: never a former documentary filmmaker Tom Garrett. I wanted to
1:08
Speaker 6: ask you about a couple of things regarding our rights.
1:12
Speaker 6: But first Amendment, the press is holding a master class
1:18
Speaker 6: in yelling fire in a crowded theater in San Diego
1:22
Speaker 6: by leaking things, you know, like oh, well they had
1:26
Speaker 6: racially charged letters.
1:28
Speaker 4: What race? What race are they? You know, and without contract.
1:33
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you got a shoot her who is apparently
1:37
Speaker 7: by with a co conspirator who was apparently Latino.
1:40
Speaker 8: So well, things in tragic, right.
1:43
Speaker 7: It drives me to sadness to see people who are
1:47
Speaker 7: so hopeless that they feel number one, that they should
1:49
Speaker 7: take their own lives and number two that they should
1:51
Speaker 7: attack someone else who they perceived to be different. We
1:54
Speaker 7: tried very hard to consistently adhere to that which is
1:58
Speaker 7: true and advocate for that which is true. Shouldn't shrink
2:00
Speaker 7: from telling the truth, but we tried not to attack individuals. Right,
2:06
Speaker 7: So we did this supposed recently. Yeah, we did a
2:09
Speaker 7: video recently attacking the idea that we would need tampon
2:13
Speaker 7: machines in the men's room and made it clear that
2:15
Speaker 7: this isn't about people who have the tragic distinction of
2:19
Speaker 7: genderness for you, but instead about the lies that that
2:23
Speaker 7: sort of undergird that and encourage it, because you know,
2:29
Speaker 7: I just if I had a child suffering with that,
2:31
Speaker 7: that would break my heart and I would try to
2:33
Speaker 7: sort of point them to what I thought was universally true.
2:36
Speaker 4: Well, but you you would be trying.
2:38
Speaker 8: To help rather than particular on how to do it.
2:42
Speaker 6: Yeah, but that's the problem is it's exploitation and and
2:46
Speaker 6: we're we're again playing this card for clicks on our
2:50
Speaker 6: you know, news sites. More people probably getting you know, CNN,
2:54
Speaker 6: you know, on their phone than on TV these days.
2:57
Speaker 4: And that's the thing.
2:57
Speaker 6: I just feel like it's. As I was taught this business,
3:01
Speaker 6: context is important. So just saying, you know, it's a
3:05
Speaker 6: racially charged letter, well, what races are we talking about?
3:09
Speaker 6: And you need to provide context with all that, because
3:14
Speaker 6: you can't just say something and then not have you know,
3:17
Speaker 6: as I said, the classic fire in a crowded theater, Well,
3:19
Speaker 6: if there is actually a fire in a crewded theater,
3:22
Speaker 6: you damn well better.
3:23
Speaker 4: You help fire.
3:24
Speaker 8: Well.
3:24
Speaker 7: The other thing that frustrates me is we'll hear these
3:27
Speaker 7: young men characterize as Christian terrorists at some point, and
3:30
Speaker 7: no one who want to know who's a Christian would
3:32
Speaker 7: have done this. So certainly it would appear that it
3:36
Speaker 7: was terrorism targeted and Muslims, although by understanding is they
3:39
Speaker 7: shot a random landscaping professional on their way to kill themselves. Right,
3:44
Speaker 7: this is a layered tragedy. I've spent more time in
3:47
Speaker 7: the Middle East and have a lot more friends who
3:49
Speaker 7: are Muslim than most of the people listening, and I've
3:51
Speaker 7: had more discussions on radical Islam with them than you've
3:54
Speaker 7: probably had with your next door neighbors. And so this
3:58
Speaker 7: is something that we should unif warmly condemn. It's never
4:01
Speaker 7: okay to take the life of someone because they disagree
4:04
Speaker 7: with they're.
4:04
Speaker 8: Different than you.
4:06
Speaker 7: It is okay to point out injustice where you see it,
4:10
Speaker 7: and so they will not ever know. I mean that,
4:13
Speaker 7: you know, social media is taking down and I understand
4:16
Speaker 7: some of the reasonings some of the videos of the
4:18
Speaker 7: terrorist attack in Italy this past weekend. Most of your
4:20
Speaker 7: listeners might not know there was one, but we'll know
4:23
Speaker 7: this guy forever because it fits the agenda, right. So
4:27
Speaker 7: it's but but it's tragic at any level, and I
4:29
Speaker 7: wholeheartedly condemn it because it breaks my fars for the
4:33
Speaker 7: victims who could have been remarkable people for all we know,
4:37
Speaker 7: and and and and because these people are miserable and
4:40
Speaker 7: want of it in their own lives.
4:42
Speaker 8: I just it's I can't wrap my brain around it.
4:45
Speaker 6: Tom drops bombs on YouTube Hang on a second with
4:49
Speaker 6: me there, because I do need to tell everyone what's
4:51
Speaker 6: been going on so that we can discuss UH fully,
4:54
Speaker 6: including that which is going on in San Diego.
4:57
Speaker 9: UH.
4:58
Speaker 6: The latest there are reports of police investigation finding letters
5:04
Speaker 6: and things written on the weapons. Again, these are without
5:08
Speaker 6: context as they continue to investigate, but we do know
5:12
Speaker 6: that the mother of one of the assailants called the
5:15
Speaker 6: police saying that the kid had stolen her gun and
5:21
Speaker 6: was going to kill himself. She didn't know what horrors
5:24
Speaker 6: were going to come next, as before they killed themselves,
5:28
Speaker 6: they killed several at a mosque in San Diego. President
5:34
Speaker 6: Trump announced this morning over social media that he was
5:37
Speaker 6: calling off a planned strike in Iran, saying that allies
5:43
Speaker 6: in the Middle East had called him and said there
5:45
Speaker 6: are serious negotiations underway. He wrote to social media, there
5:49
Speaker 6: seems to be a very good chance they can work
5:51
Speaker 6: something out. If we can do that without bombing the
5:54
Speaker 6: hell out of them, I will be very happy. Founder
5:57
Speaker 6: of the Minnesota nonprofit and broiled in the two one
6:00
Speaker 6: hundred and fifty million dollar COVID era meal frauds scheme,
6:04
Speaker 6: is claiming that Representative Ilhan Omar knew about the plot,
6:09
Speaker 6: as did other quote state and federal officials. Amy Bach
6:13
Speaker 6: claims that she was trying to warn lawmakers about it.
6:17
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6:21
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6:25
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7:01
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9:05
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11:00
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13:12
Speaker 2: Amaze your friends. Here in the first thing today by
13:15
Speaker 2: Joe Thomas.
13:17
Speaker 4: Pack it up, puck it in, let me begin.
13:20
Speaker 17: I came to win.
13:21
Speaker 8: Battle me. That's a sin.
13:22
Speaker 4: I won't tell us some punk it back up.
13:24
Speaker 17: Come time playing a Yoda home cruel. Don't get up, stand.
13:28
Speaker 8: Put your hands up.
13:29
Speaker 17: You got the feeling. Jump across the ceiling. I can
13:32
Speaker 17: took it down. I can knock it down.
13:33
Speaker 4: So get up to scene, jump around, jump fuck it.
13:37
Speaker 17: Down, jump around.
13:41
Speaker 6: Tom drops bombs on YouTube visiting with us this morning.
13:49
Speaker 6: So a couple of things going on now, Tom, I
13:53
Speaker 6: think you know are important for us to look at.
13:57
Speaker 6: Most importantly to this is is what we're finding out
14:02
Speaker 6: now about Uh. These co conspirators out of Minneapolis and
14:06
Speaker 6: out of Portsmouth, Virginia.
14:08
Speaker 4: Where you know, the fall guys and gals.
14:10
Speaker 6: Are turning and giving you know, jailhouse confessions that you know,
14:16
Speaker 6: somebody set me up il han Omar, Senator Louise Lucas. Uh,
14:20
Speaker 6: they're the folks that were supposed to take the.
14:23
Speaker 4: Fall for them aren't doing so very quietly.
14:27
Speaker 7: They didn't even have to sweat mister Upton, I believe
14:29
Speaker 7: was his name, very hard. He was literally being walked
14:32
Speaker 7: to the police cruiser. He looked at the Virginian plot
14:35
Speaker 7: reporter and said, y'all need to talk to Senator Lucas.
14:38
Speaker 7: I'm just a pawn unquote. I mean, and I don't
14:42
Speaker 7: have I don't do shodding for it.
14:44
Speaker 8: A well, right, I mean.
14:44
Speaker 7: Every human being is loved by their creator. But you know,
14:47
Speaker 7: you break the law and then get held accountable, you
14:49
Speaker 7: shouldn't act but so surprised. Yeah, and she's innocent until
14:53
Speaker 7: proven guilty. But yeah, in ilhan Omar's brother, I mean sorry,
14:58
Speaker 7: I couldn't help it.
14:59
Speaker 4: Well it would be would see yeah, co conspirator, let's
15:04
Speaker 4: use that phrase.
15:05
Speaker 6: But you know now this the woman is in jail
15:08
Speaker 6: saying that we're unnamed.
15:11
Speaker 4: State and federal officials.
15:13
Speaker 6: Were aware of what was going on, and she was
15:16
Speaker 6: actually the one trying to get people to stop it.
15:20
Speaker 6: Methink she doth protest too much. But you know I,
15:24
Speaker 6: and I said this in my Daily Signal column it
15:26
Speaker 6: published yesterday. You make a big enough cookie jar, you
15:29
Speaker 6: shouldn't be surprised how many kids get caught with their
15:31
Speaker 6: hands in it.
15:33
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you start to wonder whether or not the
15:36
Speaker 7: cookie cookie jar was made that way by design as well.
15:40
Speaker 7: And frankly, I'm quite confident, having been inside government at
15:43
Speaker 7: multiple levels for multiple years, that there are a lot
15:46
Speaker 7: of programs that as they're being made there are members
15:50
Speaker 7: and staffer's going, Okay, here's how we monetize this, and
15:53
Speaker 7: that's just that's deplorable.
15:56
Speaker 4: Sorry, well you know it is.
15:58
Speaker 6: But it's either monotor highs or vote rize, you know
16:02
Speaker 6: is you know, we do this to buy the votes,
16:04
Speaker 6: or we do this to actually get money to buy
16:07
Speaker 6: votes with their as well? What are you working on
16:10
Speaker 6: for Tom Dromp's moms? What's got you all fired up?
16:15
Speaker 7: Well, let's see, I've got a quick hitter which I
16:19
Speaker 7: can spoiler alert with regard to how surprised the Democrats
16:22
Speaker 7: were with the latest FTUS action, and just how surprised
16:25
Speaker 7: they're going to be when they learned about the Second Amendment.
16:30
Speaker 7: You know clearly that you have not read any of
16:32
Speaker 7: these documents.
16:33
Speaker 4: Well, let's let's pick on that for a second.
16:35
Speaker 7: Be another one, Joe, I'll tell you another one. I'll
16:37
Speaker 7: tease this one. Ask not what your country can do
16:41
Speaker 7: for you. The only thing we have to fear is
16:43
Speaker 7: fear itself. Four score and seven years ago, I have
16:47
Speaker 7: a dream winning the course of human events. It's becomes necessary.
16:52
Speaker 7: I know not what course others may choose to take.
16:54
Speaker 7: Ten fing one Great moments in political rhetoric with Tom Garrett.
17:01
Speaker 4: Great moments in political order.
17:03
Speaker 6: I want to jump back to the Second Amendment though
17:05
Speaker 6: a lot of lawsuits are already flying over a gun
17:09
Speaker 6: confiscation and gun restrictions and gun bands in Virginia, and
17:16
Speaker 6: the question came up whether or not it would have
17:19
Speaker 6: been better at the Constitutional Convention had we done what
17:24
Speaker 6: Virginia did. So Virginia's Second Amendment isn't even an amendment.
17:29
Speaker 6: It's part of Article one of the Constitution that what
17:32
Speaker 6: you know Americans call the Bill of Rights is actually
17:35
Speaker 6: Article one of Virginia's Constitution was it a mistake to
17:40
Speaker 6: make these things amendments and giving leeway to people to
17:44
Speaker 6: think that, hey, maybe we can change them.
17:47
Speaker 8: Now.
17:47
Speaker 7: Look, I mean I'm not hubris is thinking you're smarter
17:50
Speaker 7: than the founders, right, Hubris is thinking you begin to
17:53
Speaker 7: understand the infinity that is God. So I'm not going
17:58
Speaker 7: to second guess them. I think that this is a
18:00
Speaker 7: small example of how you can win the argument when
18:03
Speaker 7: you control the lexicon. In order to grasp the Constitution
18:07
Speaker 7: and Bill of Rights, you have to read it within
18:10
Speaker 7: the context and meaning that was present at the time
18:14
Speaker 7: it was drafted. And so the left gets hung up
18:16
Speaker 7: on a well regulated militia, right, because when we think
18:20
Speaker 7: of militia we think of, you know.
18:21
Speaker 8: The Virginia National Guard or what have you.
18:23
Speaker 7: The reality was that it was very commonly understood that
18:26
Speaker 7: the militia was every male between like some ridiculous spans
18:30
Speaker 7: sixteen and fifty. Yeah, and in a lot of places
18:34
Speaker 7: you were essentially required to own a gun because when
18:38
Speaker 7: the French came asserting a claim to the place where
18:41
Speaker 7: you've settled, you were expected to defend it.
18:44
Speaker 8: Right.
18:44
Speaker 7: And so if you look at the Second Amendment in
18:49
Speaker 7: the context of the words used when it was written,
18:52
Speaker 7: it's very clear that it's an individual right and that
18:54
Speaker 7: specifically it's military style weapons.
18:58
Speaker 6: Specifically, you have to be the military. We're gonna come
19:01
Speaker 6: calling on you at some point to be our military.
19:03
Speaker 8: And uh right.
19:05
Speaker 7: So there's a problem this is we've changed the meaning
19:07
Speaker 7: of words a lot of times.
19:09
Speaker 8: They do it quite intentionally.
19:11
Speaker 7: Love is love and and and it becomes and it's
19:16
Speaker 7: a drift drip, so it's hard to argue with, and
19:18
Speaker 7: it's slow, and you wake up one day and a
19:19
Speaker 7: boy can be a girl. But that look, I mean,
19:23
Speaker 7: it's so incredibly clear, and the court, at least as
19:26
Speaker 7: it's currently comprised as people who have a fundamentally decent
19:30
Speaker 7: appreciation of history, and it's the majority.
19:33
Speaker 8: You know.
19:34
Speaker 7: I don't like kicking on Katanji, but it's very whatever
19:40
Speaker 7: she needs it to mean is what it means. And
19:42
Speaker 7: that's dangerous, right, I mean, there needs to be some consistency.
19:45
Speaker 7: We've had this debate in Virginia with regard to the
19:48
Speaker 7: Virginia Code, which uses women, mothers and birthing individuals interchangeably
19:53
Speaker 7: in various places. I'm pretty confident I know what a
19:56
Speaker 7: woman is. I know I know what a mother is.
19:58
Speaker 7: I'm not so sure what a thing individual is. And
20:01
Speaker 7: I really have advocated that the Code of Virginia should
20:03
Speaker 7: be uniform, consistent, clear and concise because you run risks
20:08
Speaker 7: otherwise of a misinterpretation or a convenient interpretation to suit
20:12
Speaker 7: your ends.
20:12
Speaker 8: And that's not what loss would be.
20:14
Speaker 4: No, you're absolutely right.
20:16
Speaker 6: So how do people get all your stuff again? Because
20:19
Speaker 6: you've got a whole bunch of different handles and things
20:21
Speaker 6: like that.
20:23
Speaker 7: Well, the one that really exploded, I think we're fifty
20:25
Speaker 7: some one thousand total followers up this year was Delia
20:28
Speaker 7: Tom Garrett Facebook It's Tom Garrett to r S two
20:31
Speaker 7: ts jr. At TikTok, which we waited until it was
20:35
Speaker 7: rested control was rested from the chotcoms. The best one
20:39
Speaker 7: really is is Tom drops Bombs, that YouTube that hasn't
20:42
Speaker 7: caught on with the tens of thousands of followers the
20:44
Speaker 7: other ones had, but I hope people will go there.
20:47
Speaker 7: We're trying to sort of feel our way into the
20:51
Speaker 7: podcast realm and do some more long form but yeah,
20:54
Speaker 7: it's the original quote. Checked it out on AI, you know,
20:58
Speaker 7: because we got to have those power planks is in
21:00
Speaker 7: order to win hearts and minds. You gotta win eyes
21:02
Speaker 7: and ears first, and we're just trying to get those
21:05
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21:07
Speaker 7: common sense to people and maybe change the future direction
21:10
Speaker 7: of our great nation.
21:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, free speech doesn't mean much if nobody's listening.
21:14
Speaker 6: So a well done is always, sir, bless you, and
21:18
Speaker 6: I we'll talk to you again very soon.
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28:11
Speaker 8: And what does Band von Ruthless do? Monologue?
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Speaker 7: He starts monologue and he starts like this prepared speech
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28:22
Speaker 2: You from Joe Thomas its first thing today.
28:35
Speaker 6: Any number of minutes spent with the program, you know,
28:37
Speaker 6: I have a theory that you know that which you
28:39
Speaker 6: see on television represents about I think I'm being generous
28:44
Speaker 6: five percent of the population, whether it's people jumping up
28:49
Speaker 6: and down and protesting at a city council meeting or
28:52
Speaker 6: standing on a street corner saying no Kings even when
28:56
Speaker 6: they avoided the actual King.
28:58
Speaker 4: Who was here for about a week.
29:01
Speaker 6: But that being said, doesn't mean it doesn't take up,
29:04
Speaker 6: you know, consider amount of air, and it's used to
29:08
Speaker 6: create narrative. And joining us is Carson Holloway. He's got
29:13
Speaker 6: a great book out, No Liberty to Libel, and it's
29:18
Speaker 6: about the press.
29:19
Speaker 4: It's about, you.
29:21
Speaker 6: Know, how we shrug and use what we were talking
29:25
Speaker 6: about earlier, sloppy reporting. I don't even know if it
29:29
Speaker 6: raises to the level we are where CNN is out
29:31
Speaker 6: there saying that authorities have let me quote them a
29:35
Speaker 6: suicide note that contained writings about racial pride. Okay, no
29:40
Speaker 6: context about what race that is. There are a bunch
29:43
Speaker 6: of them. I mean, if we've got a million genders,
29:46
Speaker 6: we've got ten times as many races out there. So
29:50
Speaker 6: we don't know yet. The story on Sunday without context
29:55
Speaker 6: Sunni or Shia, Caucasian Latino, well you the guy could
30:00
Speaker 6: have just been mad at his girlfriend for all we
30:04
Speaker 6: know there and let the investigation play out. I've been
30:09
Speaker 6: through this before where these investigations don't happen in a
30:14
Speaker 6: half an hour like a Colombo episode, And unfortunately the
30:18
Speaker 6: press does this and it creates a narrative that I
30:22
Speaker 6: think is intentional. Carson, thank you for taking some time
30:25
Speaker 6: out with us this morning. I know your book focuses
30:29
Speaker 6: on this kind of issue where saying stuff and shrugging, saying, hey,
30:33
Speaker 6: free press is causing a lot of problems in this world,
30:37
Speaker 6: isn't it.
30:39
Speaker 13: Yeah?
30:39
Speaker 11: I think so, And I think the White House Correspondence
30:42
Speaker 11: Association shooter is an example of that. My book is
30:45
Speaker 11: about defamation or libel and how I think it's allowed
30:49
Speaker 11: to go too far under the standards that the Supreme
30:52
Speaker 11: Court is created in modern times, coming out of New
30:55
Speaker 11: York Times versus Sullivan, pivotal case from nineteen sixty four.
30:59
Speaker 11: But you know, I think that that ruling is constitutionally wrong.
31:03
Speaker 11: But I also think that there are dangerous consequences of it.
31:06
Speaker 11: One of them is this culture of, as you said,
31:09
Speaker 11: just spitting narratives that may or may not be true,
31:12
Speaker 11: which you can get away with because there's not a
31:13
Speaker 11: lot of discipline that can be imposed upon the press
31:17
Speaker 11: if they're trafficking in falsehoods, and especially ones that are
31:20
Speaker 11: damaging to somebody's reputation.
31:21
Speaker 13: I mean, that's really what libel and defamation have to
31:24
Speaker 13: do with.
31:24
Speaker 11: So I thought of the connection to the really worst
31:26
Speaker 11: consequences when I read these news accounts about the Correspondence
31:30
Speaker 11: Association shooter and saw that there was a connection between
31:34
Speaker 11: defamation of the president and this guy's murderous aims. He
31:37
Speaker 11: said he thought Trump was a was a pedophile, and
31:40
Speaker 11: a traitor. Well, these are not things that Trump has
31:42
Speaker 11: ever been convicted of, but there are things that have
31:44
Speaker 11: been said by his enemies with a view to damaging
31:47
Speaker 11: his character for political reasons.
31:49
Speaker 6: Well, Jimmy Kimmel is actually he said it during the monologue.
31:52
Speaker 6: He said it, you know, he was making jokes about it.
31:56
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, And these are reasons that I think the
31:58
Speaker 11: Supreme Court really should recon consider the libel standards that
32:01
Speaker 11: they've established. I also thought about this because as a
32:05
Speaker 11: student of the American Founders, I was reflecting on the
32:08
Speaker 11: old commentaries on the Constitution.
32:10
Speaker 13: By Justice Joseph's story.
32:12
Speaker 11: These are from eighteen thirty three, and he even makes
32:14
Speaker 11: the point that if the press is free to just
32:17
Speaker 11: destroy people's character without any restraint, or destroy their reputations
32:21
Speaker 11: without any restraint, people will not only have a hard
32:24
Speaker 11: time being happy, they'll have a hard time being safe.
32:27
Speaker 11: It will damage their safety because you'll create this body
32:31
Speaker 11: of hatred towards certain people, which will lead the unhinged
32:34
Speaker 11: to maybe use violence against them.
32:36
Speaker 6: You know, it's interesting. We were just talking about this
32:39
Speaker 6: with a former congressman now Member of the House and
32:42
Speaker 6: podcaster as well. We were talking about the intent, the
32:46
Speaker 6: original intent, and I always go back to the First
32:48
Speaker 6: Amendment and say, in seventeen eighty nine, the phrase press
32:52
Speaker 6: did not mean news media. It meant the printing press.
32:56
Speaker 6: It literally meant you have the right to publish. But
32:59
Speaker 6: once public, that creates that liability where the social media
33:05
Speaker 6: platforms are giving given immunity from being held responsible for
33:10
Speaker 6: the very things that they, in my view anyway publish
33:14
Speaker 6: and profit from the publication of But shrug and say.
33:17
Speaker 4: Oh no, we're just an aggregator.
33:19
Speaker 6: We didn't because they don't want to have to actually
33:22
Speaker 6: go through the content and edit it. They just wanted
33:26
Speaker 6: up there, inflammatory as it may be.
33:29
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think you're right, and you're making two very
33:31
Speaker 11: important points about how the founders viewed this, and I
33:34
Speaker 11: think it should be viewed even today. One is that
33:37
Speaker 11: freedom of the press belongs to everybody. It doesn't just
33:39
Speaker 11: belong to the institutional press. Anybody can publish their thoughts
33:43
Speaker 11: and they're protected, but that protection does not mean, at
33:46
Speaker 11: least not to the founders, that you had total impunity
33:50
Speaker 11: to say whatever you wanted without any legal consequences.
33:52
Speaker 4: Exactly.
33:53
Speaker 11: We still recognize this. I mean, you can still sue
33:56
Speaker 11: for libel if you're a private person.
33:58
Speaker 8: You can.
33:58
Speaker 11: If you're a public person, it's just really hard to
34:00
Speaker 11: prevail under the standards that the court has established. So yeah,
34:05
Speaker 11: I mean, the tendency in our time is to think
34:07
Speaker 11: that freedom means unlimited freedom to do just anything you want.
34:11
Speaker 11: But it really has to be understood as freedom to
34:13
Speaker 11: do what you want or say what you think is
34:15
Speaker 11: true within just limits or reasonable limits. And traditionally, libel, defamation,
34:21
Speaker 11: false attacks on people's reputation were understood.
34:24
Speaker 13: To be a limit that you don't go beyond.
34:26
Speaker 6: Professor of political science at the University of Nebraska and
34:32
Speaker 6: Washington Fellow at the Claremont Institute, Carson Holloway is on
34:35
Speaker 6: with us.
34:35
Speaker 4: I should have said that.
34:36
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, you're brilliant and making a whole
34:39
Speaker 6: bunch of sense, but you could just be a guide
34:41
Speaker 6: driving a truck.
34:42
Speaker 13: You know.
34:42
Speaker 6: There's some gravitas to him as well, not that the
34:45
Speaker 6: truck driver doesn't have a point of view on this
34:47
Speaker 6: and might even be able to shed light. I want
34:51
Speaker 6: to ask, because you know, as axiomatic as freedom of
34:54
Speaker 6: the press seems to get this idea that if you're
34:57
Speaker 6: a public person you have a harder lift in terms
35:01
Speaker 6: of getting your reputation back.
35:03
Speaker 4: When did that begin? Because you know, I try.
35:06
Speaker 6: To read between the lines of the Bill of Rights
35:09
Speaker 6: and I don't see except if you're a you know,
35:12
Speaker 6: if you ask for attention, then you know you're Johnny
35:14
Speaker 6: bar the door for you.
35:16
Speaker 4: It's not in there. So how did that start?
35:20
Speaker 11: That really is the fruit of the case I mentioned
35:22
Speaker 11: earlier New York Times versus Sullivan.
35:25
Speaker 13: And then subsequent cases.
35:26
Speaker 11: Nineteen sixty four, the court held that if you are
35:30
Speaker 11: a public official, then it's not enough to prevail in
35:34
Speaker 11: a libel suit to show that your reputation was damaged
35:37
Speaker 11: by a false report. You also have to show, if
35:41
Speaker 11: you're a public official, that the publisher knew that it
35:44
Speaker 11: was false or published it with reckless disregard for its
35:47
Speaker 11: truth or falsity. That's what's called the actual malice standard.
35:51
Speaker 11: And then, over the course of the next several years
35:54
Speaker 11: and really kind of finalizing it in nineteen seventy four,
35:57
Speaker 11: they also applied that standard to public figures. Well, so
36:01
Speaker 11: that's beyond public officials, but people who are somehow prominent,
36:05
Speaker 11: either generally prominent or prominent for the purposes of some
36:08
Speaker 11: controversy or issue. And it really does make it really hard,
36:12
Speaker 11: almost impossible, to win a libel suit even and this
36:15
Speaker 11: is the important part.
36:15
Speaker 13: I think, even.
36:17
Speaker 11: If it is true that the published item about you
36:21
Speaker 11: was false, it was false, it was defamatory, and you
36:24
Speaker 11: still can't prevail because you've got this, like you said,
36:27
Speaker 11: heavier lift, which involves showing things that are very difficult
36:30
Speaker 11: to prove about the subjective thoughts of the people who
36:33
Speaker 11: publish it, like did they know it was false or
36:35
Speaker 11: did they act with reckless disregard.
36:38
Speaker 13: So yeah, that's the history on that.
36:40
Speaker 6: Well, and I'm not necessarily saying that that's a bad
36:46
Speaker 6: precedent to say, but these are the people who are
36:49
Speaker 6: most likely to fall prey to those kind of attacks,
36:52
Speaker 6: aren't they, Carson.
36:54
Speaker 13: Yeah, well, it's true.
36:56
Speaker 11: The members of the court are themselves victims of defamation nowadays.
37:00
Speaker 13: Well, yeah, I used to be treated with a lot
37:01
Speaker 13: more respect.
37:03
Speaker 11: I mean, I guess one of my complaints besides the
37:05
Speaker 11: ones we've been talking about, my book is based upon
37:09
Speaker 11: an originalist approach like the intentions of the Framers, and
37:13
Speaker 11: it's just not The modern standards that the Court Court
37:17
Speaker 11: has devised are not really based on the original understanding
37:20
Speaker 11: the First Amendment.
37:22
Speaker 13: The idea that you would.
37:24
Speaker 11: Have to prove actual malice in order to prevail was
37:28
Speaker 11: not something that the founders thought about at the time.
37:30
Speaker 11: They thought more simply, and I think more elegantly and
37:33
Speaker 11: more decently about this question. They simply thought that libel
37:38
Speaker 11: or defamation was outside the scope of the freedom of
37:41
Speaker 11: the press. It was what they would call licentiousness or
37:44
Speaker 11: an abuse of the of the press.
37:46
Speaker 13: It's something for which you could be sued.
37:48
Speaker 6: Well, and it goes back to the original. You know,
37:50
Speaker 6: this is only going to work if we're a moral society.
37:53
Speaker 6: If we understand thou shalt not bear false witness against
37:56
Speaker 6: thy brother, then it works.
38:00
Speaker 4: Carston Holloway.
38:03
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Speaker 24: training and more So, go forth, bring home those donut
40:47
Speaker 24: earrings and bring home so much.
40:49
Speaker 2: Good to your community.
40:54
Speaker 24: Goodwill, bring good home.
40:57
Speaker 1: Exercise is hard, so is maintaining a healthy diet. Of course,
41:03
Speaker 1: neither is half as hard as dying. Sadly. Type two diabetes,
41:08
Speaker 1: heart disease, and stroke kill nearly a million people a year.
41:12
Speaker 1: Even sadder, most of these deaths are preventable with a
41:15
Speaker 1: few lifestyle changes, including regular activity, healthier eating, and not smoking.
41:22
Speaker 1: Talk to your doctor about your risk for type two
41:24
Speaker 1: diabetes and heart disease, and if your doctor recommends lifestyle
41:28
Speaker 1: changes or medication, listen. The reason so many die is
41:33
Speaker 1: because not enough are willing to change. You can stop
41:36
Speaker 1: it starting right now. It's your life. Listen to your doctor,
41:41
Speaker 1: eat better, get moving, Visit check up America dot org,
41:45
Speaker 1: or call one eight hundred diabetes a message from the
41:48
Speaker 1: American Diabetes Association.
41:50
Speaker 2: My name is Jim.
41:51
Speaker 4: I'm a veteran and I lost both legs in Vietnam.
41:55
Speaker 4: My victory was proving that the disability is not a limitation.
41:58
Speaker 8: I'm Julius, I'm a My victory was going from homeless.
42:02
Speaker 9: Toll at DAV We're on a mission helping veterans of
42:06
Speaker 9: all generations get the benefits they've earned.
42:09
Speaker 23: I'm cc.
42:10
Speaker 1: My victory was finishing my education.
42:13
Speaker 9: When America's veterans win, we all win. Help us support
42:16
Speaker 9: more victories for veterans. Go to DAV dot org.
42:21
Speaker 24: We the people are guaranteed five freedoms in the First Amendment.
42:25
Speaker 12: Freedom of speech, freedom.
42:28
Speaker 10: Of religion, freedom of the press, freedom to peaceably assemble,
42:35
Speaker 10: freedom to petition the government.
42:38
Speaker 7: Only the United States has these five freedoms, so simply
42:41
Speaker 7: bound together and guaranteed.
42:43
Speaker 4: Think First.
42:44
Speaker 24: Learn more at Think First Amendment dot org.
42:48
Speaker 25: No word in the English language is less convincing than probably.
42:52
Speaker 23: Are you sure we should get matching tattoos on our
42:55
Speaker 23: first date?
42:56
Speaker 24: Sure?
42:57
Speaker 17: We'll probably stay together.
42:59
Speaker 25: Probably, it's been twenty three minutes since I ate. I
43:03
Speaker 25: can probably swim.
43:05
Speaker 24: You should wait thirty minutes.
43:07
Speaker 13: Okay, I'll tell me what to do.
43:09
Speaker 3: Can it bar.
43:12
Speaker 15: Cramp?
43:12
Speaker 16: Oh?
43:13
Speaker 4: I have a cramp.
43:16
Speaker 8: I can probably hit the green from here?
43:19
Speaker 2: Probably?
43:24
Speaker 8: Can I get a Mulligan.
43:26
Speaker 4: Ready to go?
43:27
Speaker 6: Hey?
43:27
Speaker 23: Are you sure you're okay to drive?
43:29
Speaker 2: Yeah?
43:30
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sober. Yeah, I'm probably okay.
43:35
Speaker 25: Probably okay isn't okay, especially when it comes to drinking
43:39
Speaker 25: and driving. If you're drinking, call a cab, a car,
43:42
Speaker 25: or a friend. Buzz driving is drunk driving. A message
43:45
Speaker 25: brought to you by NITSA and AD Council.
43:48
Speaker 23: You know the legal drinking age is twenty one. You
43:50
Speaker 23: may also know this law protects teens. Find out more
43:54
Speaker 23: at Don'tserve Teens dot gov. A message from the We
43:57
Speaker 23: Don't Serve Teens program and the Federal Trade Commission, from
44:12
Speaker 23: the home.
44:12
Speaker 2: Of the First Amendment. First thing today.
44:23
Speaker 8: You gotta be.
44:31
Speaker 6: Oh yeah with the University of Nebraska hit Politics and
44:36
Speaker 6: History Professor Carson Holloway, Department Chair Political Science, University of
44:42
Speaker 6: Nebraska and fellow at the Claremont Institute Center for the
44:46
Speaker 6: American Way of Life. It's got a book out called
44:50
Speaker 6: No Liberty the Libel, talking about how you know this
44:54
Speaker 6: this devil may care attitude towards truth leads to people
45:00
Speaker 6: like the assailant at the White House Correspondence Center may
45:04
Speaker 6: very easily wind up being connected to the shootings in
45:08
Speaker 6: San Diego and violence of all kinds being taken in
45:13
Speaker 6: the public square. As I'm just curious about this because
45:18
Speaker 6: it's one of those things that I've wondered about over time,
45:23
Speaker 6: and it's been a premise that I've had in my
45:27
Speaker 6: coverage of you know, free speech, especially, I've heard this
45:31
Speaker 6: expression so hamhandedly used that you know, you can't yell
45:36
Speaker 6: fire in a crowded theater, and I always look at
45:38
Speaker 6: the person the speaker who says it. And I said, well,
45:41
Speaker 6: what if there is a fire in a crowded theater,
45:43
Speaker 6: isn't it my responsibility to yell fire? And and and
45:47
Speaker 6: if I and if I do it and there isn't one,
45:50
Speaker 6: then I'm going to be held liable for damages, you know,
45:54
Speaker 6: probably criminal charges and citing a riot and that kind
45:57
Speaker 6: of thing.
45:57
Speaker 8: You know.
45:58
Speaker 6: But that but that thought, it's it's like a virus.
46:01
Speaker 6: It starts this idea that we can you know, reinterpret
46:06
Speaker 6: these things. We see it on the Second Amendment. I
46:08
Speaker 6: see it in the Third Amendment. It's my favorite amendment,
46:11
Speaker 6: and nobody ever talks about it. And uh and the
46:14
Speaker 6: Fourth Amendment and and and even the property ownership rights
46:17
Speaker 6: in the Fifth Amendment. We we insert these little things like, oh,
46:22
Speaker 6: well you can't do that for this uh, or the
46:26
Speaker 6: state really does own your property if you don't pay
46:28
Speaker 6: your taxes on it, and we can confiscate it.
46:31
Speaker 4: These kind of things.
46:34
Speaker 3: Uh.
46:34
Speaker 6: Even to the point of being able to take your
46:36
Speaker 6: private property, meaning your money in taxation without justification or compensation.
46:43
Speaker 6: We we shrug and we say, oh, I guess you know.
46:46
Speaker 6: They're they're the justices, they're the elected officials. You know,
46:50
Speaker 6: all these little little fissures have created quite a gap
46:54
Speaker 6: in the dam Carson, Am I wrong?
46:58
Speaker 13: No, I think that's right.
46:59
Speaker 11: I mean it's and part of the reason I wrote
47:01
Speaker 11: the book is because the bigger picture, I guess is
47:04
Speaker 11: there has been a big drift away from the original
47:07
Speaker 11: understanding of the Constitution, which I think is a mistake.
47:10
Speaker 11: I think the courts cleaning it up in certain areas
47:12
Speaker 11: and moving back. But this is another area, the first Amendment,
47:17
Speaker 11: that I think they need to re examine. So I'm
47:19
Speaker 11: hoping they will do that. And since you mentioned the
47:21
Speaker 11: other amendments, I find that interesting too. You know, the
47:23
Speaker 11: second protects a right to keep in their arms. That's
47:26
Speaker 11: a very important right, but nobody would say, and to
47:29
Speaker 11: my knowledge, the courts never said that if you, you know,
47:32
Speaker 11: if you accidentally killed somebody with a gun, then in
47:35
Speaker 11: order to be sued they would have to show that
47:37
Speaker 11: you knew they were going to kill you were going
47:39
Speaker 11: to kill them, or that you acted with recklessnessregard it
47:41
Speaker 11: would be enough that you acted negligently.
47:43
Speaker 13: Right, all these rights have to.
47:45
Speaker 11: Be exercised in a way that respects the rights of
47:48
Speaker 11: other people, and I think that shows.
47:50
Speaker 13: You the first Amendment as well as everything.
47:52
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I've always said that, you know, a free
47:54
Speaker 6: society is the sciety where you can do as you
47:57
Speaker 6: see fit up until the point where it infringes on
48:00
Speaker 6: somebody else's right to do as they see fit. And
48:03
Speaker 6: we allow for that so much. And you actually reminded
48:07
Speaker 6: me of another common point as I point to different
48:10
Speaker 6: translations of the Ten Commandments being either kill or murder,
48:15
Speaker 6: and it sounds like you're the kind of person who
48:16
Speaker 6: says they're entirely different words meaning entirely different things, because
48:22
Speaker 6: murder implies intent, planning, I'm going to go kill you
48:26
Speaker 6: because I want to, versus kill, which you know could happen,
48:30
Speaker 6: you know, in your own self defense. And I think
48:32
Speaker 6: it's very important, you know, differentiation, and maybe that's one
48:36
Speaker 6: of the original delineations that we allowed.
48:40
Speaker 13: Yeah, that's right.
48:40
Speaker 11: I mean, I'm not a biblical scholar, but it's pretty
48:42
Speaker 11: clear that there are cases of justified killing in the Bible,
48:46
Speaker 11: so that murder is something different. And we have to
48:49
Speaker 11: be attentive to the meaning of words as well when
48:51
Speaker 11: we investigate and interpret the Constitution. You know, a bridge
48:56
Speaker 11: the freedom of the press doesn't or a prohibition on
48:59
Speaker 11: a bridging the freedom of the press doesn't mean that
49:01
Speaker 11: the press gets to publish just anything they want without
49:04
Speaker 11: any restraints whatsoever. If you want that far, it would
49:07
Speaker 11: mean that they could publish, say, the war plans of
49:09
Speaker 11: the government in the way that would get soldiers killed.
49:11
Speaker 13: Nobody thinks that there's a right to do that.
49:14
Speaker 4: So funny.
49:15
Speaker 6: I remember an instance, a whole section of a newspaper
49:17
Speaker 6: that getdicated to that Carson, No Liberty to Libel is
49:23
Speaker 6: the book?
49:23
Speaker 4: Where do people get it?
49:24
Speaker 6: Best place to get at Claremont Institute website?
49:28
Speaker 11: Well, I think the best places would be Amazon, and
49:31
Speaker 11: then the website of Encounter Books, which.
49:33
Speaker 8: Is the publisher.
49:33
Speaker 6: Okay, excellent, Well, go to Amazon, drive it up the
49:36
Speaker 6: list of bestsellers, and that'll annoy some people in Bezo's land.
49:42
Speaker 6: I truly appreciate God. I could talk to you for days.
49:45
Speaker 6: It sounds like I should take your class.
49:49
Speaker 13: I really appreciate it. It's been great talking to you.
49:51
Speaker 4: We will talk again soon, I guarantee.
49:54
Speaker 8: It all right.
49:55
Speaker 13: I look forward to it.
49:57
Speaker 6: And it's No Liberty to Libel Carson Holloway And spending
50:02
Speaker 6: some time text message you know, and you guys are
50:05
Speaker 6: great for this, you are like Venus Flytrap, not the
50:09
Speaker 6: character from WKRP in Cincinnati. And by the way, I
50:14
Speaker 6: like the fact that I've lived long enough to see
50:16
Speaker 6: an actual radio station on the air in Cincinnati going
50:19
Speaker 6: by those call letters, just saying that Johnny writes in
50:26
Speaker 6: and says, what's your deal with the Third Amendment? This
50:29
Speaker 6: one fascinates me because you're right, I've never heard anyone
50:32
Speaker 6: even mention it. Okay, So the Third Amendment says, and
50:38
Speaker 6: this may need longer than we have remaining. The text
50:42
Speaker 6: of the Third Amendment is no soldier shall, in time
50:45
Speaker 6: of peace be quartered in any house without the consent
50:49
Speaker 6: of the owner, nor in the time of war, but
50:51
Speaker 6: in a manner to be.
50:52
Speaker 4: Prescribed by law.
50:56
Speaker 6: That was because King George was making colonists quarter his soldiers,
51:03
Speaker 6: and then those soldiers, upon returning to the barracks, would
51:07
Speaker 6: debrief with the commanding officer as to what he might
51:10
Speaker 6: have seen or heard. This was designed to spy on citizens. Surveillance,
51:17
Speaker 6: if you want to use that word, And I've made
51:20
Speaker 6: the case that in twenty twenty six parlance, an officer
51:26
Speaker 6: of the government, say, an intelligence officer surveiling your desk,
51:32
Speaker 6: is that Now, the argument about the Internet is you're
51:35
Speaker 6: not in private, you're out on the street. But I
51:38
Speaker 6: don't sit at my desk on my street, so there
51:42
Speaker 6: has to be you know, positions and what can you
51:46
Speaker 6: surveil through my computer If I'm not posting work to
51:50
Speaker 6: social media, I'm just sitting at my desk writing. But
51:54
Speaker 6: my computer is connected to the internet, much like dominion
51:58
Speaker 6: voting machines weren't supposed to.
51:59
Speaker 4: Be what too soon?
52:03
Speaker 6: I mean, we only mentioned it last week as the
52:06
Speaker 6: President was in China talking about Huawei and all the
52:09
Speaker 6: things that are connected to the Internet except for the
52:11
Speaker 6: dominion machines.
52:13
Speaker 4: Right, But at what point, you.
52:17
Speaker 6: Know, if I'm surfing the internet, if I'm going out
52:20
Speaker 6: on x or Instagram or something. Okay, now I'm out
52:23
Speaker 6: on the street. But if I'm just sitting at my
52:25
Speaker 6: desk writing a column for the Daily Signal, can somebody
52:29
Speaker 6: can an officer of the government surveil that just because
52:35
Speaker 6: my computer is connected to the internet. That's kind of
52:38
Speaker 6: what I'm getting at. But I appreciate the email on it.
52:42
Speaker 6: I appreciate you catching the subtleties of that stuff. I
52:45
Speaker 6: am Joe till tomorrow morning. So long and Thanks for
52:49
Speaker 6: all the fish.
52:54
Speaker 14: Hi, I'm Mark Falter with the Financial Fitness Show. Have
52:58
Speaker 14: you been keeping up on on the big Beautiful Bill.
53:03
Speaker 14: There's a lot of information in this bill. It's eight
53:05
Speaker 14: hundred and seventy seven pages long. And for that reason,
53:08
Speaker 14: we are offering a free webinar free webinar July thirty first,
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Speaker 14: at six thirty pm Central where you can actually get
53:17
Speaker 14: on and ask your questions. Come with your questions, come
53:20
Speaker 14: with your scenario, and hopefully we'll have time to answer.
53:23
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Speaker 14: seven sixty four two six three five eight sixty six
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Speaker 14: six seven sixty four two six three five