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Grow Your Writing Business with Gotham Ghostwriters | Dan Gerstein · The Daily Writer

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an author and ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that last line I just said about growing your impact and income is particularly relevant for today's episode since I'm bringing you an interview that is absolutely going to help you grow your impact and income, especially if you're a ghostwriter or if you would like to be.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you've probably heard of Gotham Ghostwriters, which is a New York City ghostwriting agency.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's headed up by CEO Dan Gerstein, who is a nationally recognized political writer, communication strategist, and idea man.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: He's been writing professionally for more than 30 years.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Gotham Ghostwriters has seen incredible growth in recent years, and I had the pleasure of talking to Dan about Gotham, as well as their annual event called Gathering of the Ghosts.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this year's event was recently held in New York City, and next year's event is sure to be even bigger.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Gotham also recently released some fantastic on-demand resources for ghostwriters in the last couple of years.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: First is the Business Book ROI study, which is an in-depth assessment of how a great book can impact somebody's business.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And second is a course called Ghostmasters 101, How to Break into the Business of Ghostwriting.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can access both of these on the Gotham website.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, if you're interested in joining the Gotham Ghostwriters Network, you can find more info about how to do that on the Gotham website.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in this conversation with Dan, we dive into all these topics and much more.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you're currently ghostwriting, you'll find a lot to chew on here.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're looking for a way to make some extra income with your writing skills or maybe even build a robust full-time career as a ghostwriter just like I've done, this conversation will inspire and empower you to take the next steps.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you can find out more about Gotham Ghostwriters and all it has to offer by going to Gotham Ghostwriters.com.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And with that, here's my conversation with Dan Gerstein.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Dan, so glad you could join me on this episode of The Profitable Rider.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: We have not actually connected before, but I've known of you and about you for several years and your work with Gotham Ghost Riders.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to have you.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me, Ken.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So for those who are not aware of what Gotham Ghost Riders is, um, maybe they're interested as a client, but also as somebody who is a prospective ghostwriter.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're looking into that career path, which I of course would highly recommend.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's what I've been doing for the last few years.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is Gotham Ghostwriters and uh how did you get involved with it?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, maybe I can tell you the origin story and that will help.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, that'd be great.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what uh, you know, uh what we do and what makes us distinctive.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been writing professionally since I was uh 18 years old.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was a newspaper reporter at college, and then I was a speechwriter in Capitol Hill, um, did 10 years in DC, uh, had my film, moved to New York, and then started doing communications consulting, mostly with issue advocacy groups.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what started happening was my friends in PR and politics who knew me as a writer would occasionally come to me in a panic, say, you know, our boss has to give an important speech, and we don't know anything about speechwriting, or we have to turn around a high-level op-ed, and they would ask for my help in um writing it.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I really didn't have the time or frankly the inclination to do that.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, as a favor, I would just introduce them to my other freelance writer friends.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd, you know, I'm a natural-born connector, took five minutes out of my day, no big deal.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the thing is, it kept happening after about the 20th time, the proverbial light bulb cracked my thick skull and was like, wait a second, I'm performing a service here.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And more importantly, there seemed to be an unmet need in the marketplace that I was in a position to fill.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: There was this uh growing demand for high-level specialized writing talent, people to work with public figures, thought leaders, people who really cared about the quality of the story and ideas they're putting out into the world.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then all these amazing um independent writers out in the marketplace.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem was there was no efficient or effective way for demand to find supply.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so my idea to try and solve that problem was instead of trying to hire a bunch of people and follow a traditional PR agency model where you do everything in-house, was to move in the direction the internet was taking everything towards customization and specialization, um, and build and curate a network of elite writing talent who specialize in all different kinds of long-form writing, and then be in a position to play matchmaker.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was the genesis of Gotham Ghostwriters.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: We started off primarily doing speech writing and other thought leadership content, but over time, um, you know, organically people came to us to help them uh write and publish books.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um in that um, in fairly short order became the dominant part of our business, um, in large part because it's such a specialized service, it's really hard to find elite book ghostwriters.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And there were very few solutions like ours out in the marketplace.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're at a point where we have a network of 4,000 writers, editors, editorial strategists, and consultants.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we function like a mashup between a search room recruiting firm and a litter agency.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: On the front end, our clients are coming to us saying, I need help writing a book on nanotechnology, or I want to write a series of thought leadership posts on LinkedIn regarding the future of work.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we're in a position to deliver a bespoke customized solution and not just recommend a couple good writers, but uh a handful of writers who really specialize in the form and then have a real familiarity with the subject matter.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the client's getting hand delivered on a silver platter, um qualified, well-matched talent that they can then choose based on their own priorities and idiosyncrasies, right?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because a big part of this, as you well know, when you're writing in the voice of someone else is the click factor, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, whether you're comfortable with the writer, you trust them, you're on the same page, literally and figuratively.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that's the one thing that we can't account for.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, and that's a big part of our value proposition is that understanding that the clients really want to have some say in the writer they work with.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than us just saying assigning someone to them, we'll give them somewhere for between three to five options that we think on paper are a really good match, and then they can kick the tires and then pick the person that they have the um most comfort with and confidence in.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So for for writers who are interested in working with Gotham Ghostwriters, how does somebody get on your list or how do they sort of get on your radar screen to potentially get gigs through Gotham?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we are at a point now with, you know, given that we have uh a network now of 4,000 plus, um, we're not actively seeking new writers, right?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: We we have an amazing, amazing community of talent that we can draw upon.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's both a talent pool and a recruiting vehicle because through that universe, we can reach a much, through that community, we can reach a much larger universe of freelance writers.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we are selectively adding new writers to our network who um really align with the kind of work that we specialize in.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So long-form sophisticated writing, primarily for um business leaders, thought leaders, advocacy leaders, public figures who really care about the quality of content they're putting out in the world.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then have um an area of specialization that really aligns with um, you know, the sectors that we're mostly working with.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that tends to be technology uh with heavy emphasis on AI, as you're well aware.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, finance, business management and leadership, future of work, um uh energy.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then when it comes to you know different book genres, you know, we do a lot of memoir uh in addition to thought leadership and business books.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then um, you know, uh prescriptive nonfiction.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, how-to books, um, you know, relationships, psychology, things like that.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that totally makes sense.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at some point you've got so many writers sort of in your uh who are affiliated with you that you know you don't want to have 10,000 of them.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of untenable.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that totally makes sense.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, for us, you know, there's there's really no downside or marginal cost to continuing to expand our network.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And for the writers, it's the closest thing to a free lunch because there's no risk, cost, or obligation.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're on an anonymous email listserv, and we're bringing new business opportunities to the doorstep.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: The thing we just you know try to explain to people, set their expectations realistically is that um we can't guarantee anyone writer work at any given time because, again, given we have such a large network and we are catering to clients' particular um priorities and needs.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you know if someone specializes in, you know, we I recently connected with a writer who specializes in writing about uh um the equine community, right?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're you know, working with horses.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you know, there's definitely a demand for that out there, but there's not a heavy demand, and it's not necessarily expressing itself to us.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to kind of say there, you know, more than happy to kind of consider you adding your network, but you can't really count on us for work versus someone who's like an expert on AI and we're getting, you know, 10 to 15 new client opportunities coming to us every month that would want to write either books or other thought leadership content about AI.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that makes total sense.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thanks for sending a context for that.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'd love to dive into this uh study for a few minutes.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So Gotham Ghost Riders, you partner with a couple of other organizations.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, look at my notes here.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Amplify Publishing Group and Smith Publicity and Thought Leadership Leverage to produce this really interesting study that has gotten a lot of press.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen this all over LinkedIn the past uh when did this come out?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Has this been out what three or four or five months?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we released it last fall.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's so it's been out for a few months.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, really fascinating.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's so interesting.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to throw out a couple of things um specifically from the data highlights page.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And of course you go into much more detail in the actual report on this.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and by the way, P for you know, for those who aren't aware, you can download this for free at what is what is the URL where they can go to download this?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Authoroi.com.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Authorroi.com.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I should have had that in my notes pulled up here, but I forgot to add that.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, this is so fascinating for anybody who's involved in making or selling or publishing books on any level.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is uh fantastic.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um so let me just dive into a few things here, and I'm I'd like to just kind of share this and then get your perspective on this and maybe expand on this a bit.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one thing that I thought that I thought was really interesting is um it says the median ghostwritten book was four times as profitable as other books.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, as a ghostwriter, my ears perked up, or I guess my eyes perked up.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's not really a saying, but but I thought that was a really interesting observation.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that is?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: What is it about the fact that a book is ghostwritten that makes it much more highly likely that it's going to be profitable or successful?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I will welcome the chance to address that specific question, but I just want to kind of step back and explain to people that the the reason we can commission this study was that, and I'm sure you've experienced this a little bit, Kent, is we've had literally hundreds of conversations with aspiring authors, particularly in the business book world.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And they are halfway sold on the idea of writing and published in a book.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: But they're like, is it worth it?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: The bottom line is they tend to be bottom line people, and they're like, what's the return on my investment?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because it takes a lot of time and in some cases capital to get a book out into the world that will have meaningful impact.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we've had plenty of anecdotal evidence that it's worth it, but we didn't really have hard data.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we thought, well, this is a question that gets comes up a time and time again.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: It would be really useful to be able to have a data set that we can point to authors to kind of show them first and foremost, you know, is it possible to quantify what the ROI is?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: But secondly, you know, from those results, be able to extrapolate, okay, what can I do on my end to maximize the potential ROI?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and by from learning from the experience of others, right?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that was sort of the the inspiration for doing this and what our objective was.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we ended up uh surveying more than 300 business book authors.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's the first of its kind large-scale survey of uh authors looking particularly at what's the payoff for publishing a uh business of thought leadership book.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we found a couple things.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: One is um we looked at a baseline metric of profitability, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And to really focus on the fact that for most business book authors, they're not gonna sell a lot of books.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever financial return they get on the investment of time and capital in putting a book out is gonna be from um other sources than selling books, right?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's from you know creating more visibility for your you as a thought leader and an expert in your field, from raising the profile of your business and credentialing your business as a you know a great partner for people.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's generating speaking opportunities that will therefore generate revenue, right?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so those we looked first and foremost at profitability, and as you pointed out, like what we found is that close to two-thirds of all authors generated profit above and beyond book sales from doing a book.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: The median profit was uh about eleven thousand dollars.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: But the the real critical finding in the key insight was there was a very strong correlation between um investing in professional support, working with a ghostwriter, working with a um a serious PR and marketing uh consultant or firm, uh and then most importantly, having a dedicated revenue strategy, right?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: By in investing in those tools, the return was substantially more uh interesting by for uh than simply just putting the book out yourself or trying to promote it yourself.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, so you cited the fact with the ghostwriter, right?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So working with uh a launch PR firm or consultant, the median profit jumped up to$55,000.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um having a strong revenue strategy, the median profit jumped up to almost$100,000.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So almost 10x what the median was for the generic author.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not purely about working with a ghostwriter per se, but it's about investing in the quality of the content and um having a plan that is aligned with the author's business objectives, a strategy, and then having the other resources to execute on that strategy that led to greater payoff for the author.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really fascinating.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I would assume that the ghostwritten books would by and large need to be way more profitable than the ones that are not ghostwritten.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Again, just kind of painting with a broad brush truck here, because just the investment in ghostwriting alone is pretty substantial.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and of course, ghostwriting fees can range, you know, all over the map.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: But that's you know, even at the lower end, that's still a substantial investment for right.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and that that was definitely that was something that came out of the the the survey was that um of the different expenses authors identified for producing their book, ghostwriting was the most expensive line.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably by a long shot.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: The median spend was frankly on the lower end from our experience, it was about$25,000.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's median.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but plenty of authors were spending in the range of$50,000 to$100,000 to work with really accomplished professional ghosts.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And your your point is exactly right, is you know, the gross revenue that was generated to create profit um was much higher to offset that cost, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it's not a one-to-one causative thing, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Where like if you hire a ghostwriter, you're gonna make more money.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: But the correlation was very, very clear.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: However, it's not happening in a vacuum.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the reason why ghostwritten books tended to be more profitable was both that they were higher quality books, but also the author was more likely to invest in other resources to maximize the the impact of the book, whether it's you know, PR marketing support, having a revenue strategy, um, you know, um having a social media campaign, all these kinds of things.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So would it would it be fair to say that essentially the author who has the uh the insight and the intention, the business acumen and the resources to invest in ghostwriting is also typically gonna be investing in those other things that help make a book really successful.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna have a plan.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're gonna you know allocate resources.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things we tell the authors we work with um who are very intentional about they want to leverage the book to raise their visibility, enhance their credibility, um, uh credential themselves as an expert, that they should be thinking about the process of writing and publishing book as a pop-up business, right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: But the book isn't the product, the book is the marketing vehicle.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the author is the product as well as the CEO of this pop-up business.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's this very weird combination of roles that you don't really see in other places.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: But the the key thing is, and the key insight I gained from you know learning a lot about this and talking with authors about their experience is by thinking of it as a a pop-up business, it will lead you to creating a business plan, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what are my what are my objectives for this business?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's my budget?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, or what resources do I need?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then what then what kind of budget should I have in order to acquire the resources that will help me succeed in my objectives.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to the conversation in just a minute, but I want to take a moment to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, Vellum.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: As a writer, you not only want to write great books, but you also want them to look professionally formatted and give your reader a great experience.
• 19:40
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• 19:45
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• 19:52
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• 20:01
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• 20:08
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• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: To download Vellum for free, visit trivellum.com slash Kent.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's trivellum.com slash Kent.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's get back to the conversation.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that seems to tie directly into it.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually one of the things I wanted to mention here from the report is um says among authors with books out six months or more, 18% reported$250,000 or more in income.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking, consulting, and workshops generated much more income than book sales and royalties.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're saying, the the book is basically a marketing vehicle.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: For these other much higher income generating things, workshop speaking, consulting, et cetera.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a lot of data available outside of our survey that show that most nonfiction books, and particularly business and thought leadership books, do not sell a lot of units, right?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and and this is something when we were talking with aspiring authors who are prospective clients that have a really you know frank, honest conversation with them, if you go in with their eyes open, you're probably not going to sell a lot of books.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then this got validated in the the survey results.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the the of the 300 plus authors we talked with, about roughly a third were doing traditional trade publishing.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Another roughly a third were working with high-end hybrid publishers that you know offer the same high-level comprehensive services that a trade publisher does, but it's funded by the author.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then a third were doing some form of indie basic independent self publishing.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um for the traditionally published authors, the the common the common uh feedback we got.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Was that they were disappointed, they were surprised by how many books they sold.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we asked them how many books they expected to sell, and then how many books they actually sold.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: For the traditionally published authors, the median expectation was about 8,900 units.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the actual number was 4,600.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I saw that stat in there.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was really surprised.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then for the hybrid authors, you know, we're more than likely than not, they're not having books that are um gonna be big commercial um successes, um, and nor is that their primary objective.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Their expectation was um, you know, the the median was it's to sell about 400, 4,600 copies, but they only ended up selling 1600.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, considerably lower than the traditionally published.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you know, this is really important for you know people thinking about you know getting a book out into the world, is if your primary reason to do it to do it is to make money, chances are you're not gonna succeed.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then being make money from sales of the book.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: However, the flip side is as we show with this the profitability um data uh from the business book ROI study, is there are plenty of opportunities to um generate revenue for you as an author by leveraging the book in different ways.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And again, the strong correlation is the more you invest um in creating a high-quality book, getting attention for it through marketing and PR, um, and having a tie to a larger revenue, business and revenue strategy, the higher the returns will be.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when when you look at um, let's say outliers in the business book world, I'm just gonna pull a couple off the top of my head.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say I'm gonna, of course, mention the obvious example, which is Atomic Habits, which has sold like 16 million billion copies, you know.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody has like 10 copies or something.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or a book, let's say, like uh Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has like 50-some thousand reviews on Amazon.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: When you look at at business books that are sell that have sold just like gargantuan amounts of of copies, uh what do you attribute that to?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because it can't just be the quality of the book?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, both of those are phenomenal books, obviously.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's kind of like thing number one is you have to have a really good book, obviously.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: But is it the marketing?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is it word of mouth?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are is it sometimes where there's a book that it just for whatever reason it becomes kind of a cultural touchstone and it catches fire?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's sometimes no rhyme or reason to it other than that book spoke to people in a way, in a very specific way, in a very specific moment, and it just exploded.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that is one explanation, but it's not the most common.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Those are rare.
• 25:03
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, much more common is you have an author who's already demonstrated they have something of value to deliver to an audience.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, they have built a large following.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: That the minute they put out a book, people are like, oh, I'm I'm going from the appetizer to the main course.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta have one.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta have it.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so they've in that, in essence, they've you know pre-sold their book by delivering value to a to an audience and and being able to identify who those people are and market directly to them.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so people like Seth Godin.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Seth Godin, frankly, and he he he experimented with self-publishing um for one of his books.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: But Seth Godin doesn't need a publisher to reach his audience, right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: He has such a large following, he has an email list.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and and so when he puts out a book, there's it's going to be a bestseller for the reasons we talked about.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but the reality is most business and thought leaders don't have those two key ingredients.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have um a uh a large audience pre-established and a connection with them, um, nor do they have the track record of delivering a lot of value already.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they're using the book to kind of as a launch pad and to accelerate those processes.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um, and and therefore it makes sense to have very low expectations for your first book in terms of sales, because you know, you know, unless you catch lightning in a bottle, um chances are right, your your your book will help you um fast track your um your credentialing and then your connection to you know your connection to audience and building a follow.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: So for for authors who maybe they don't have a huge email list, they don't have a platform like Seth Godin, they haven't been around for decades offering value to people and building trust with their audience.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: All hope is not lost.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the most interesting statements from this report.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um this line really caught my attention.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it said that book sales did not predict success or ROI.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, if you didn't sell a lot of books, you could still have a lot of financial success with books, assuming that you have other things to sell or that they're you know, there's other factors at play.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, like the measure of success of the ROI is not just the number of books that you sold, there's other factors too.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that is the least important metric of success.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: See, that is so fascinating because everybody puts the emphasis on, you know, this was an Amazon bestseller, this is a New York Times bestseller, blah, blah, blah.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting because that's actually not as high as people think that it is, correct?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, but also the reality is very few people can claim that, right?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and therefore, so like, you know, and and this is where we start with our conversations with every one of our clients who are aspiring authors, is you need to have clarity about why you're writing the book.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if your primary reason is you want a bestseller, then you may want to rethink doing a book because you know, it's you know, we're talking about one out of a thousand.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh if I had to, you know, do a rough back to the envelope calculation.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and therefore, like you have to have an understanding of that, you know, um, you're not gonna be a bestseller in most cases.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, what other benefit can you get?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: What's a what's a a uh personal or business um imperative that makes it worth your time to invest at a minimum the bandwidth uh as well as potentially capital, whether it's emotional capital or financial capital, to you know, spend six months, nine months, twelve months on not just producing a book, but prepping the you know, building an audience, you know, expanding your platform, um, you know, having a strategy for promoting the book so it's you know has maximum impact when it comes out.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of work.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um is a lot of work.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's it's you know, having clarity on your goals and then having a plan that is aligned with achieving those goals.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's what's gonna lead to quote unquote success.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: And again, what the study showed is there is a couple measures of success.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: One is, you know, hard data in terms of you know generating revenue.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: How does it help you grow your business, grow your income?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's the soft benefits, right?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which are in terms of you know um raising your profile in social media, getting more speaking gigs, getting more podcast interviews, and most importantly, enhancing your credibility.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, one of the um key data points that came out of the survey is um 90% of the authors said the book substantially increased their credibility as a thought leader and expert in their field, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me is you know, really validates what we tell our clients all the time, which is in this day and age, you know, contrary to you know, some conventional wisdom that, you know, because of attention spans dwindling and social media and snackable content, you know, rising in in prominence, that the book is diminished in value.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the opposite.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: The book is um has this unique, enduring uh uh value proposition that nothing else can match for people who want to be seen as an expert and have something, you know, have influence um in their field and in an in an important in the conversation that's happening.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: I want to dive in a couple of questions, um, not related to this report, uh, in just a second, kind of as we wrap up wrap up the next 10 minutes or so.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: But uh before that, I'm I'm super curious about something, uh, this whole idea of having a best-selling book.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you're in New York City, obviously you're right there in the heart of you know, all the big New York publishers, lots of things happening in the book world all the time there.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: What is your take on the value?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say if somebody does have a book that's a New York Times bestseller, does have you seen that that has actual tangible benefits to people?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: When they can say that their book has been a New York Times bestseller, you know, can they come in higher speaking fees?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Do they get other sort of thing?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: What what's the ROI of being able to say that, in other words?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think it's uh um it's meaningful, right, to be able because what it does in um credentialing an author and showing their showcasing their their their value as an expert is it's a proof point, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right away, if lots of people buy my book that instantly communicates to other people, oh this guy has really something important to say.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a shorthand.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a total shorthand, you know, way to communicate right away that you have something of value to say.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are other ways to communicate that, right?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So like this, so it it's definitely useful and it's better, it's certainly you know, all things equal being equal, it's it's it's um you know a credential that's really worthwhile.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: But there are other ways to communicate the same exact thing that are much more realistic for most authors, right?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's the best way to think about it is rather than chasing this really, really unrealistic um badge of honor, um that uh, you know, credential that you can put on your website, et cetera.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um it it's much more productive to find other ways to communicate the same thing um through other means.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because you really can't, I mean, there's so many things that are not in your control as an author.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think it's it's pretty much an open secret that the New York Times bestseller list is not necessarily a marker of all the books that's sold.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's more of an editorial list, if I'm not mistaken.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's kind of a sense in which you even if you hit the sales, that doesn't necessarily guarantee you're gonna be on the list.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's my understanding.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's actually correct, but that's always been uh what I've understood to be the case.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you know, the the there are a number of bestseller lists, right?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the the ones that are most accessible and and with the lowest bar to meet, is like being an Amazon best seller in your category.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's helpful in terms of credentialing yourself and marketing your book, but I don't think it's so uh it's such a game changer that it's worth chasing that because again, the the the likelihood you're gonna obtain it, even just being an Amazon bestseller, is pretty small.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and but if you're talking about the New York Times list or the say the Wall Street Journals list, um most of those people, not all, but most of them have large platforms already.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: They have large followings, they're they're a recognizable brand.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's not necessarily the the um the quality or the originality of the the content that they're putting out.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's the fact that they're a brand name.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and they have a marketing and PR machine behind them that's right that can help drive sales.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so you know, back to something that you that the report mentioned is email campaigns were uh were really, really important in determining ROI.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And man, if you've got an email list of half a million people, um that's worthwhile.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's super worthwhile.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: I want to ask about a couple of other things here before we uh wrap up.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um you'd mentioned in your email from a day or two ago that you launched a professional development program called Ghostmasters last fall.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Great title, by the way.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the first course that you put out was about how to launch and grow a ghostwriting practice.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love for you to share more with our listeners about that course and about ghostmasters in general.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um last January of 2024, we co-hosted the first ever convention of ghostwriters.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: We called it the gathering of the ghosts.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the the theme of the conference and the conversation was about ghostwriting coming out of the shadows, right?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've seen these trend lines where um more and more uh elite authors and journalists were branching into ghostwriting in large part because the demand for it was growing and the compensation was really, really good.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we're and then conversely, there the ability for authors and journalists to make the same standard of living, the same level of income from writing under their own byline was was shrinking, right?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we've seen this evolution where not necessarily these people are leaving their being author or journalists, but they're broadening their portfolio of professional work.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and more and more authors now um in the age of the internet where there really are no secrets, are getting more and more comfortable with acknowledging that they're working with a collaborator, right?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really something that I think has been a sea change um in book publishing, is this idea that you know the ghostwriter is something that needs to be there's some shame around it or stigma, and you have to hide the fact that you worked with a professional uh writing partner.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And now more and more people, particularly you know, under the age of you know, say 45, have no issue acknowledging that's right they worked with a collaborator, just like they have no issue, you know, acknowledging they work with a PR professional or you know, they uh work with a stylist.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they don't have to maintain the history, the mystery that they do for okay.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anyways, and and so um I made the case in opening the conference that it's a great time to be a ghostwriter.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um the the opportunities are expanding.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the there's been more and more public recognition of the value the ghostwriters uh and collaborators, professional collaborators provide.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, it's still a fairly opaque field.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's very little standardization, um, and most people really just don't know how to how it operates or how to break into it, right?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um we took a, you know, uh we did a survey after the conference, um, and we recognized that um we could provide a really valuable service to the writing community by um first helping people who are established writers but don't have a background as a ghostwriter or collaborator, um, branch out, right, and and find a way to start their own ghostwriting practice and credential themselves and attract opportunities and capitalize on these opportunities.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then to offer um more advanced um programs for uh established ghostwriters to elevate their practice and take it to the next level, command higher fees, and and get access to higher order uh projects.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we launched the Ghostmasters 101, the how to break into how to um launch and grow ghostwriting practice this fall with a two-week intensive, where it was live online.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we captured all the video and had put that up for people who can enroll in a reduced price point to benefit from all this expertise and watch all the videos, but won't have the opportunity to kind of have the you know live dialogue um and interactive function of it.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um, you know, we we we plan on continuing.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're probably gonna offer another version of the intensive this year.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we're um getting ready to announce the the second edition of Gathering of the Ghosts, um, which will be in um November of this year here in New York City.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And how can people find out more about the course and the gathering?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can go to our website, www.gothamghostwriters.com, um, and we'll, like I said, we'll be putting out an announcement about the gathering of the ghost conference um in the next few weeks.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that we'll be sharing that widely on social media and in writer forums.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um but if all else fails, just go to our website and do a quick search and you can find it.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the stories that people tell when they get when go that ghostwriters tell when they get together.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime that I talk with my ghostwriter, we're always swapping stories about crazy, you know, we all have a crazy client once in a while and horror stories and uh and really cool success stories and jobs that you lucked into that and sometimes the the job that you had no business working on at the time, but you sort of grew into the role and you know all kinds of fun things happening.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, Dan, thank you for being an advocate for ghostwriters.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love what I do, it's brought so much joy to my life, and it's really, really a blast getting to work with cool people and also doing this podcast and getting to talk to cool people like you.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you again.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you taking time to share with us and walk through some um material from this report and all the cool things that Gotham Ghost Riders are doing.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: So appreciate it.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: No problem, Ken.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Glad to be with you.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it was helpful to your community.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and people can reach me at Dan at Gotham Ghostwriters.com if they have any questions about the course, um, the conference, or um, you know, uh the work we do.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: So um stay calm and carry on.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: All right, take care.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, thanks again for joining me for another episode of the Profitable Rider Podcast.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks to Dan Gerstein for taking the time to share all the amazing things that Gotham Ghost Riders offers.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure to visit Gotham Ghostwriters.com to learn more.