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3 - SWTOR: Jedi, Sith, and the Moral Nature of MMO Gameplay · Mythic Mind Games

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Mythic Mind Games podcast, where
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: we pursue wisdom on the past between primary secondary worlds
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: with a focus on video games. I'm doctor ANDREWS. Knyder,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad that you're here. Hey, they welcome back. Today.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: I'm joined by Ian Miller to wrap up our Knights
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: of the Old Republic series with Star Wars the Old Republic,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the MMO that came as something of a sequel to
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Nights of the Old Republic one and two. Now, as
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: we discuss, this is a game that I mostly played
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: many years ago. I mean it's probably been I don't know,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: ten years since I had really played it. Now I
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: recently played a little bit in preparation for this. I
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: did recently play through the Jedi Knight storyline as a refresher.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: But there are, I mean, there are eight different class
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: stories that are like fully worked out games, they're just
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: countless companions. Like this is a difficult came to remember
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: the details of, and so for that reason, I mean,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Ian really did a great job of carrying this conversation.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: It was difficult for me to remember the details, let
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: alone engage in significant philosophical analysis and investigation. But I
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: thought that it was important to wrap up this series
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: with this game, and so keep that in mind as
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: we as we get into this. I feel like it
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: was a good conversation. It was a fruitful conversation, even
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: though I wasn't really equipped to go as in depth
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: as I would like to. Let's go ahead and get
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: to it, and at the end I will reveal where
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: we're going next. All right, well, welcome back to Mythic
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Mind Games. As we wrap up this series on the
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Old Republic. This is a game that perhaps is less
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: familiar to many of the listeners versus the first two games,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the Kudr one Kudre two, But I thought that it's
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: important to to kind of round things out here. Although
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I should say that I played through this game quite
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: a bit years ago, went through all all the class stories,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: which that alone is basically like eight more Kotar games.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: With how in depth and just well written these various
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: class stories are. Now for that same reason, makes it
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: a little bit difficult to remember years later what's happening
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: in each story. But I think that this is significant enough,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: It has enough staying power that I think it's gonna
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: be a good conversation. Join here by Ian, who I
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: think is the only other member of our fellowship who's
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: played this game, and so I look forward to seeing
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: what he has to say about this. In fact, maybe
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: maybe that's just where we'll start. Just tell us generally
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: about your experience with the game. You know, how long
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: you've been playing, I mean, kind of where do you
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: want to start off with your own relationship with this game.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I played Quotar two in college, and then
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I played Quotar one in between college and grad school.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: And that was around two thousand and eight. Two thousand
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: and nine when they announced The Old Republic, which I
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: think was actually like four years before it actually came out.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: You know, you had that trailer of the shuttle slamming
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  Speaker 2: into the Jedi temple and all the Syth coming out,
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  Speaker 2: and you had that great lightsaber battle between the main
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  Speaker 2: Sith and the main Jedi. I was really excited. I
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: read the Talian novel that came out at the time,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Fatal Alliance, and then when the actual game came out,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I subscribed for three months because I thought I could
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: finish one of the storylines in that time. Unfortunately, I miscalculated,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: and I got to level forty nine of fifty and
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: didn't quite finish it then, and that was back in
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: twenty eleven twenty twelve, whenever the game first came out.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I didn't try again until the pandemic, and so I
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: was able to still work, but a lot of the
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: other social things that I was doing at the time
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: kind of disappeared during the pandemic. So during the nights
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I would play The Old Republic and I finished all
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: of the storylines, included the first one they started, and
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: then I did all the other seven. Had a really
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: good time. I think that took me between four to
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: six months. It was a pretty significant amount of time
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: that I developed because I wasn't rushing, I was just
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: having fun playing the game. I didn't I did never
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: go on to the Fallen Empire storyline, the DLC stuff,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: which has been continuing. I think it's kind of fun
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: to note that The Old Republic still has about one
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: hundred thousand people who still play it daily, which is
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: pretty significant for a thirteen year old game.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I can't remember when I first or I
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: know it wasn't there when it first came out. I
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: think I joined right around the time that the first
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: DLC the Hut Cartel came out, although I never really
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: got to that content, but that's about when I jumped
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: into it, and I mean I was just blown away.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: I have not played a lot of MMOs now, I
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: mean I played. I played Wow a good bit back
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: at the launch. You know. I was there from the
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: the open beta up till probably a little past Burning Crusade,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: and I jumped into here and there every once in
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  Speaker 1: a while for a couple of years. But moving to
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  Speaker 1: the Old Republic, it's just a totally different dimension. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: for one thing, I think a Star Wars just has
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: richer potential for storytelling. I say, this is somebody who
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: really enjoyed, like you know, Warcraft three, and like, I
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: think they do some stuff and some significant stuff there.
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  Speaker 1: But I think Star Wars is such a richer environment.
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  Speaker 1: And then also the full voice acting that the fact
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: that each class does have its own fully work story.
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  Speaker 1: I was just really blown away by this potential, by
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: by this experience that I really wasn't expecting, because in
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  Speaker 1: many ways, the Old Republic it is kind of like
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: a Wow skin, and that it keeps all the same
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: basic gameplay elements down to the user interface, Like everything
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: is almost exactly the same mechanically, with the difference being
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  Speaker 1: I think it's just a much richer potential for storytelling.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Have you Have you delved much into MMOs outside.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Of I'd heard a lot about both Wow and Star
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Wars Galaxies, the previous Star Wars MMO in college, but
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I never got into them, and I never played the
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: MMO part of The Old Republic either. I basically played
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: it as as you said, like eight sequels to Knights
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: to the Old Republic, because it's structured in such a
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: way that you can have a full story just playing
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: as if it were a single player game.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's true. That's that's mostly how I played
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  Speaker 1: as well. I mean now for the MMO element, I
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: would sometimes do the battleground games and those were kind
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: of fun, but you know, otherwise, yeah, I agree, you
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  Speaker 1: can play them fully independently, which is mostly how I
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: did it. In that I mean, per when I have
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: played games over the last several years, it's usually you know,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: late at night or kind of whatever. I can work
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: it in here and there, and so not not great
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: for like actually socially playing. So as we mentioned, it's
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: kind of like eight games packed into one. Just looking
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: at the class stories, what are what are some of
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  Speaker 1: your favorites or what's what is your favorite out of
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: the eight?
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: I would say I have two favorites, and that would
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: be the Trooper. As people who have listened to the
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: previous Star Wars podcasts that I've been on know, I
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: love the x Wing series of novels, So I love
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: that sort of ground level elite troop band of brothers,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: military science fiction story, and the Trooper is very much
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: you get to live that story. You you collect your
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: squad members, you train with them, you go on these
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  Speaker 2: missions where you save other soldiers, you say, civilians. It's
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: is perfect for someone who enjoys that military science fiction,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: small unit tactics type thing. I also really love the
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Jedi Consular, which is different than the Jedi Knight. So
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: the Jedi Knight is much more a warrior going in
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: pursuit of glory and honor. The Jedi consulor is a diplomat.
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  Speaker 2: You are constantly forming relationships with important representatives of groups
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  Speaker 2: and trying to offer things and fix problems for those
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: groups so they'll join you in your alliance. And the
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: reason I like that Jedi Consular better than the Night
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  Speaker 2: is every one of the eight storylines has a finale.
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  Speaker 2: In the finale of The Jedi Night, you arrive at
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  Speaker 2: the final planet, which is Karelia, and a bunch of
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  Speaker 2: people who saw you do stuff in the past show
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: up and say you inspired me. I'm gonna follow you now,
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: which is nice, but it doesn't feel like you had
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  Speaker 2: to work on that. When you get to Karelia as
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  Speaker 2: the Jedi counsulor all of the Alliance, you've formed, all
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: the different people groups, all the different ships and military
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  Speaker 2: units that you've done favors for, you've solved problems for.
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  Speaker 2: They are part of your team, and you get to
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: coordinate like a real like a leader in general, you
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: say this team has this specialty, go over here, and
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  Speaker 2: so it feels much more like you built up this
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  Speaker 2: entire faction of people that help fight the Sith Empire.
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  Speaker 2: And that's a really different way of being a Jedi
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  Speaker 2: than I think the movies really portray that. I really
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  Speaker 2: liked being able to experience. It's still very spiritual, still
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  Speaker 2: very much focused on the force, but it's not in
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  Speaker 2: that direct way. It's in that relational and diplomatic way.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you definitely generally speak. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that.
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  Speaker 1: In this game in particular, I suppose with the Jedi storylines,
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  Speaker 1: it definitely is a lot more engaged than the general
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  Speaker 1: detachment that you see in the movies that that's at least
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: your players. I mean, I guess it'd be kind of
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: boring if you weren't. But I think that we definitely
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: just see more involvement. And I think that part of
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: that has to do with just the general head to
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  Speaker 1: head nature of the Jedi in the Sith that it
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: is kind of underwrapped in the in the movies, versus
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  Speaker 1: this major galactic conflict that's you know, already kind of
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: the Galaxy of part and at the beginning of these
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: stories it's threatening to do that again, there's this this
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: kind of cautious piece. But I did recently replay the
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Jedi Night story, and that's the only one I've played recently,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: and I do think that they do some pretty sophisticated
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: things with that story. I think it's very interesting that
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: it really begins on a somewhat political angle, where you know,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: you have the these natives of sorts attacking the Jedi civilization,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: and so you know, kind of dealing with you know
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: what's going on there, you know what what's something seems
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: to be funding them or equipping them, or you know,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: setting them off on this. And so as you uncover
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that plot, you know, eventually you discovered that there seemed
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: to be some kind of Sith backing, but even then
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: it's kind of unclear. Then you move on to Coorissant,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: where we continue from a very political kind of angle
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: that there are all these refugees in Coroissant that had
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: been kind of just taken advantage of by this criminal
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: enterprise that's come in. And so we really start on
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: a very political kind of angle dealing with some very
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: hot button issues that I don't know if they would
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: have wrote that story today, or at least it would
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: have looked very differently I think if they did. And
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: then out of the political we start to emerge into
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  Speaker 1: the more spiritual, the more religious conflict between the light
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: and the dark, that the Jedi and the Sith, until
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: eventually you're coming head to head with essentially the devil,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: the Sith emperor, who doesn't he's unlike Palpatine, he even
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: you know, he doesn't have like a peace and order.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: He's trying to establish he just wants to consume everything,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: very much in Anhelist kind of way, and so we
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: get these strong terms between being and non being happening
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: here and along the way, you have to, you know,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: undergo a kind of repentance. You know, you gotta break
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: out of influence, and then you know, decide how you're
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: gonna deal with your fellow Jedi who had fallen. And
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: so there's a very spiritual element that spirals up from
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the political and it reminds me of this quote from
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Kirkyguard kimming Rid word for word, but he basically says that,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: you know, eventually the political gets unmasked to reveal the religious,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: and I think that that is actually accomplished pretty well
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: in the Jedi Night story.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd agree. I think that in general, all of
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: the four Sith and Jedi storylines do a very good
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: job of showing how the underlying moral and religious beliefs
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: of that forced wielding set plays out into the political order.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So I think it's really interesting that, unlike the prequel movies,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: the Jedi have removed themselves from direct Republic control. They're
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: no longer on Coruscant at the time of the game.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: You're on your own planet, whereas the Sith are in
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: direct control of the entire political structure of the empire.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: So the Jedi, your political and moral elements are very
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: much on a liminal basis. You're kind of between official
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: and unofficial, and it's up to you to navigate those
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: things when you interact with senators and regular people. Whereas
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: when you come in as a Sith, you are a
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: direct representative of the governing theocracy of the Sith Empire,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: and you know the guiding principles of the Sith of
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: aggression and hatred and envy, and you know all the
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: things that we think of as sins, the cardinal sins.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: You embody that for people. Even if you are playing
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: a light side character. One of the things that I
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: enjoy playing is I am always lightside because I just
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: enjoy being that kind of character. So being a light
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: side Sith and maneuvering around all these dark side darths
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: and your masters and the Emperor himself eventually is really
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: kind of funny because it shows the difference that someone
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: who's trying to live according to virtues versus someone who's
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: always selfishly attempting to betray, destroy, consume everyone around them
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: makes and I think that well, of course they want
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Sith players to have fun. The writers of the game
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: aren't interested in portraying some kind of utopia. When the
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: people with the religious force powers have the power, they
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: show all the negative consequence of that selfishness and that
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: greed and that lust.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting playing the opposite of alignment of
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: what's natural. I mean, especially if you're playing a light
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: side because one hand, that play style means that you're
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: you're maintaining a certain kind of honor, that you're not
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: just consumed by what's gonna gave me. The dark side points,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: you know, what's the I'm gonna kick a puppy just
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: because it's there. It's it's more of you're more rational
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: in what you're doing, even though you're still working for
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: an evil empire. You know, maybe you could argue that
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: you're you're playing some kind of reformer. And in fact,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: even in the Jedi Night story, you encounter the Sith
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: on Oh I can't remember, maybe maybe it was tattooing.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: He's someone who tries to maintain you know, honor and
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: fidelity and as somebody that who makes him really stand
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: apart for that reason, but of course it's very arguable
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: that that kind of syth would be far would make
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: for a far more effective empire than the one that's
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: just constantly backstabbing and betraying.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I've commented before on Twitter that if I were a Sith,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: I would not take an apprentice is going to kill you, right,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I don't understand the upside. I suppose that it's just
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: a demonstration of the irrationality of evil, which like, whenever
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: you have a villain who just wants to destroy everything,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: you know, that seems kind of cliche people will you
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: kind of turn away from that, thinking that it's just,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: you know, we need someone that we can really relate to.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think that's actually a
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: pretty solid demonstra representation of what actual evil is. If
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: you could get as close as you can get to
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: absolute evil, it's just destroying everything just because we hate goodness.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And so I guess that is something that the Sis
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: had going for him.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Well. I would argue that we've got several of what
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: I would consider death cults in today's political movement, certain
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: types I don't want to say all types, but certain
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: types of environmentalism very much want basically human extinction certain
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: types of philosophy or like existence is suffering and the
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: goal of humanity should be to end suffering. So we
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: should end human distance because then end suffering. Like that's
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: almost literally what the Sith Emperor and Krea and Kotor
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: two want, is this end of existence because their own
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: life is so much pain, or they perceive it to
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: be so much pain. Yeah, I think there is some
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: realism in that kind of villain really.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're You're exactly right, and you know, ultimately
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: taking a very Augustinian framework as I tend to do,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's behind all forms of evil, that even
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: more palatable evils than we want the elimination of humanity.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: It comes down to valuing lesser goods over the higher goods.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And in valuing lesser goods, we're turning away from the
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: font of goodness. We're turning away from the source of
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: being toward non being. You know, it's a very Platonic
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Augustinian way of viewing things, but I think that I
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: think that's true. And so whether we go all the
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: way to we just want to eliminate existence, to I
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: prefer lesser forms of existence over the greater it's moving
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: in the same trajectory. And so I do think that
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: these great world destroying villains are telling something real about
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: certain elements of contemporary philosophy and politics, as well as
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: just something real about the reality of all sin, even
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: the more palatable and relatable ones to most of us.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: So I'm actually very much okay with the irrationality of
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the Sith as the storytelling element. Now you say, you you, you,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: you always play light side, whether you're republic or or empire. Now,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: maybe this gives us We've addressed this a little bit
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: in previous conversations, but what would you say about somebody
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: who enjoys playing the dark side? Is there resalithing about
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: the characters that play style? Like, what do we think?
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I think there's a There's a really good article I
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: found when I was prepping for this episode call a
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Moral Galaxy War and Suffering in Star Wars the Old
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Republic by doctor Robert Garassi and nat Racine that addresses
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: this very question. And they said that someone who chooses
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: the negative or or vicious or sinful play style or
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: pattern is that there's no demonstrated correlation between that and
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: you know, sociopathic or cool behavior. In real life and
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Star Wars the Old Republic. The writers are careful too,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: never make it a pure fantasy as I As I said,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: when you behave in that way, the characters react and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: dislike you. You you develop a negative reputation, You don't
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: have as much help, and maybe you can develop enough
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: power that you can still you know, bulldoze over everyone else,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: but you you are given up that that's pro social,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: that relational, that communal, that community aspect of the universe
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: when you make those choices. So I think that it
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: is not something that you could just say, oh, yes,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: this person loved shooting people in call of duty, therefore
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: they're going to be a school shooter, as is so
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: often the common narrative. I think that someone who is
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: thoughtful and just enjoys exploring what it's like to live
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: as someone who's given themselves over to their base desires.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: You know, that's that's an experience that they know they're
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: not part of that. There's a there's a separation. You
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: are not the main character. You are not the sith Worre.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: You are not a rogue Jedi knight who's given over
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: to the dark side. You're Ian or Andrew who's choosing
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: to explore that. You know, there's a detachment where it's
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: not just oh, I'm this person, I just enjoying murdering civilians.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's a good point
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: that I mean, when you're playing a game, for the
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: most part, you're playing a character, like you're not playing yourself. Now,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: obviously characters and archetypes have some relation to human psychology,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: but at the same time, you aren't identifiable with every
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I mean every every fiction that you act out. And
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: so I think that I agree that you know that
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: role playing in this universe that doesn't necessarily have real
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: world ramifications, that is a good way of psychologically dealing
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: with things of interest and interest can you know, take
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: a number of different manifestations. It can be good, it
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: can be bad, right told con says, don't don't study
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: the device of the enemy too too deeply. But at
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: the same time, like, I think that there can be
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: value in that. Is it's why people like watching the
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: you know, the like crime shows and you know that
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: really get into the mind of criminals and murderers and whatnot.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: That there can be some value in that as long
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: as that inst doesn't turn into personal devotion, which I
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: think for most people isn't a serious threat. You know,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I in my recent Jedi Night playthrough, I decided that,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: you know, it's always boring if you just go I
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: want to get light side points or I want to
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: get dark side points. And so I decided I was
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I was gonna try to play like a pragmatist, where
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: you know, he's not necessarily a you know, full on
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Jedi code, but also not necessarily a villainous monster. But
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I noticed that as I started off on sort of
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: this this gray pragmatist uh sort of philosophy, that over
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: time it ended up becoming very very dark, which because
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: those those decisions became easier. And I think that that's
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: just one example of how engaging in fiction can reveal
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: something significant because you know, I don't I didn't set
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: out to be a dark Jedi. I set out to
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: be a pragmatist, but in that I became a dark Jedi,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: which I think demonstrates something very true about the nature
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: of pragmatism of setting aside code, setting aside principles, and
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: saying I'm just gonna do what's gonna get the effects
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: that I want. And so I mean, that's just one
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: example of how I feel like the dark light dynamics
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: of this game demonstrate to something that I think it's
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: philosophically valid, philosophically true.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: One thing that I really like about every one of
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: the eight storylines is your companions almost always include someone
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: who has come over from the other side in some aspect.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: The Jedi Knight, of course, has Cure Carson, who was
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: raised as a child of the Emperor, the Sith Emperor.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: The Jedi Consul, actually Jedi Consular doesn't, but either the
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Trooper you've got a defector from the Empire. The Sith
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Inquisitor and the Sith Warrior both have Jedi apprentices who
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: you sort of kidnap, and you can either if you're
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: light side, you can kind of side with them and
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: form this reform Sith, or you can you know, turn
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: them into a dark Side apprentices like Bastile and Malik
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: in kotoor one you're smuggler. You've got your smuggler and
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: your Sith and guizor you run up against this shadow
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Illuminami and so you have characters from that join your
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: party who tempt you towards greater power and greater self aggrandizement.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: It's fascinating how your party is designed to allow you
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: to go in any direction, so you always have a
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: character who you can hang out with and have a
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: strong bond with, whether you choose to go towards the
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: light side or the dark side. On any faction, you've
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: got your scoundrels, your your sith converts, your Jedi converts,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: your traders, your double agents. It's just really well constructed
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: how no class story is designed to funnel you along
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: and just be a good partisan. There's always someone who's
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: a little voice in your head, sort of like Kraya, like,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: what are the consequences of this action? Are you really
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: serving the best interests of yourself or is this just
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: a facade that you've put up to please the people
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: around you.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point that there are very interesting
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: character dynamics. Now, I will say from a gameplay angle,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I don't really like that at some point, if I
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: remember correct, I don't think this is always the case,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: but at some point they made it so every companion
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: can serve every role of you know, fighter, heeler, tank,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: which just I don't know. I like when you have
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to specialize, but nonetheless, that you do have this whole
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: cast of characters that you can choose from. And I
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: will say that generally speaking, they've really I don't know
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: if this is only for the like you know, one
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: to sixty level of content or not, but that they
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: really emphasize the story element. Like the game itself is
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: not difficult. It's actually incredibly easy for the most part,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: at least in my experience. And you know, all the companions,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: you can make them play a new role because there
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: really is this emphasis on the story that's being told,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: whether that be the plot of your class or even
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: just the interpersonal story. And so you know, many ways
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: it is a different game depending on what companions you're
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: taking and what conversations that you have on on a
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: regular basis. And I think that you ill stated well
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: that just that different dynamic of you know, the different
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: voices that are in your head, so to speak, and
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I do think that that's that's interesting. I guess I
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: should mention another fan favorite story, which is the uh,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the the Imperial Operative or agent, right, the Imperial Agent. That's
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: a really fun one. You're you're kind of like a
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: James bond Er, like maybe like Jason Bourne is a
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: better connection, and that for a time you're you're even
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: I only vgular remember it. I feel like at one
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: point you're you're like, don't you go from like fighting
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: that the you know, terrorists, the resistance to you, uh
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: doesn't like the empire turn on you or I can't
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: remember the detail.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Yes. So the fascinating thing is the Sith Empire is
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: very much not a utopia, and as an agent, you're
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: constantly dealing with different Sith lords taking control of the
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: agency and fighting a different Sith lord with it. So
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: you become their tool, and eventually they get tired of
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: that and they dissolve your job, and so you're kind
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: of this rogue agent with no authority over here. You
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: just try to accomplish your missions. And then eventually a
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Syth lord comes and says, no, we're gonna have a
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: new Syth intelligence. You're directly under my control again. But
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: one of the great things about that is you spend
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of time in a kind of George Smiley
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: versus Carla in you know those John Leclaury stories. There's
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: a republic agent who's kind of your opposite, and you
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: go back and forth trying to control them, and they
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: control you like sometimes literally they control you with you know,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Star Wars technology, And in the end you have a
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: choice whether you turn them into a double agent so
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: they give they become a Sith Empire agent, or you
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: can become a Republic agent helping them. And I love
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: just how you can make that choice as a as
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: an Imperial agents. Every single companion in the Imperial Agent
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: has a split loyalty, whether it's you've got a guy
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: who's half bug half human, You've got a guy who's
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: you know, loyal to the Chiss part of the Empire
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: versus the Sith part of the Empire. Just everything is
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: split loyalty. And I love the thematic consistency that you
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: get with that agent storyline, even though I actually put
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: it pretty low on the on the overall storylines. Uh,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: there there's a lot to admire about it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that's one of the strongest philosophically,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: but I think it's one of the more interesting ones politically.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: It's just it's just it is fun for that reason,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: all those divided loyalties, different ways you can go with that. Yeah,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, where else do you want
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: to go with this.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Well, one thing that I think is kind of funny
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: and I if the Old Republic had been made a
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: few years later, I think that the bounty Hunter and
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Smuggler would have been their own faction, the fringe faction,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: because you see a lot of games like the current
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Star Wars Outlaws that are about the fringe rather than
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: being necessarily imperial or rebellion or Republic. And I really
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: like both of those storylines because you get to be
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: a more normal person and you see how the choices
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: of the Sith that the Republic impact you as a
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: person just trying to live your life with your own
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: goals that aren't explicitly political or religious. So one of
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: my favorite things is you're a smuggler just wandering around
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: on tatooed and a Jedi comes and you get to
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: see them helping people and you see their selflessness, and
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: it's kind of a fun what happens if the normal
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: person meets Superman kind of moment, and there's there's a
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: real spiritual thing, a real inspiration thing about how that
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Jedi is portrayed and how you as a smuggler who
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: tend to be much more. Oh, I'm out for my
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: own I want my own ship, on my own life.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: I lived by my own code. I'm not bound by anything.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: And you see someone who has dedicated themselves to this
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: ideal saves people, and it's it's a really fun kind
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: of the spiritual breaking forth into the mundane moment for
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: me when I was playing the game.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's that's a fun element of any
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: of these Star Wars stories where the Jedi Sith stuff
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: is kind of on the periphery, whether we're talking about
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you know, your I don't know Rogue one or even
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: your Solo where Darth Maaltra's up at the end. It's like,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: you know, the these major force powers are kind of
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: on the sidelines. It makes them more significant when they
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: do show up. And I think that that the Old
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Republic deals really well with those non force stories, the
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: the the Trooper, the smuggler, the agent, and the bounty hunter. Yeah,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that I think that they did deal with that really
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: well in a way that highlights the spiritual dynamics by
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: not focusing so much on the spiritual dynamics.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that as a Christian,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: of course, we have the ideal in romans of the
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: magistrate is put in place to punish the evil and
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: reward the good. And because so often even in the
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: non Jedi or Sith characters, you become sort of a magistrate,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: or you become part of the one of the big
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: political entities. You have to make those decisions of what
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: is the evil, how do I punish it? How do
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I reward the good? How do I be the good?
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: And I think all those questions are really rewarding when
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: you think them through. As a Christian, even if you
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: choose to go down the evil side, you see the
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: results of as a sciety that has chosen to reward
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: the evil and punish the good.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that's very true, and that you know,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: you're you are regularly forced matter what side you're dealing with,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you're regularly forced to deal with those questions of you know,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: how do we relate mercy and justice? You know, when
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: do we forgive and strive for reconciliation? And when do
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: we execute the sword right? When when do we bring
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: down judgment? And I think we have to recognize that
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: there is a place for both, not even that those
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: are always mutually exclusive, but at the same time it
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: can be it can be difficult, and I think that
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: even if you're role playing a character, even asking the
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: question like how would my character engage with this, I
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: think that can lead to some interesting thought exercises regarding
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: what is good and evil? What what is fitting? Right?
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: That's that's a word that you know, I'm right now,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I'm reading a lot of the mediev for a course
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: that I'm teaching, and and someone talks about this a
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: lot about you know, what what's fitting. That's a good
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: way of approaching kind of what is good, what seems
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: to be most fitting, and that can be interesting thing
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: to engage with in these moral scenarios that the game provides.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I think there's a very interesting blend of the medieval
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and the modern in the Old Republic because it is set,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: you know, three thousand and seven hundred years before the
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: prequel era, and so it has got that patina of
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: the far past. Of course, you've got your spaceships, you've
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: got your hyperspace, you've got your your blasters, but you
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: also have a real sense of how these these roving
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: bands of Jedi knights and Sith warriors meeting out justice
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: can could impact a society in a way that isn't
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: quite the same as your organized police forces, and I
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: would say that that also has application in the the
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: prequel era. And then when after the movies, you've got
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Luke Skywacker rebuilding the Jedi Order and the Old Expanded Universe,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: and you you still have that Night Monastery medieval context,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: and so I think it's it's interesting. I'm wondering if
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: you have seen any other parallels between the medieval era
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: that you're reading from and Star Wars in general, but
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: specifically the Old Republic.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it's an interesting points between question. And I
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: do think that that that lack of institutionary justice or
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: institutional justice is something that carries through one hand, you
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: definitely see it in that medieval kind of uh format,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: but then it also carried over very well to the
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Western feel of say the Mandalorian, and it's it's interesting.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I never really thought about some of the connections that
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: can be made between the medieval world and the wild West,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: like in both of them, a lot of times you're
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: i mean lacking clear institutional guidelines, and you have people,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: to the best of their ability, either trying to enact
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: honor themselves or see what they can get away with,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: and so I do think that you definitely see some
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: strong elements of that in Star Wars storytelling and even
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: in the Old Republic, and I need to think with that.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: I feel like more can be done on the connections
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: between the medieval world and the old American West, which
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I had just never even made those connections before, but
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: I think something interesting could be done there.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, both are very liminal stories. Both are about a
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: space that either civilization has retreated from, you know, the
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: fall of Rome and the way the troops have left
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: and all the people are left with, you know, the ideals.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: That's where King Arthur comes from, is trying to uphold
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: the Romano ideals of civilization and justice for all that
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: a code of laws versus your roving bands of mercenaries
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: and warriors who just I have the power, I will enact,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: my will haunt you. And I think that's exactly what
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the Wild West is as well. It's this place that
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: people came from civilizations, so they have this memory of it,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: but there's no one there enforcing it. So are you
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: going to enforce it? Are you just gonna suck up
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: to the powers that be?
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting, And of course in Mallories telling of Arthur,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: he actually conquers room, which shows that we're even even
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: surpassing the power of what we came from. That has
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: no real connection to what we're talking about, but I
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: just felt like throwing it in there.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you're a sith warr, you could definitely
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: come the course off and cause some trouble.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of stumbling over. I just
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: haven't played the scheme as recently enough to really get
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: into it. I mean, I don't know, is there anywhere
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: any other dynamics you feel like we haven't explored that
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: you think are worth getting into.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I think part of the problem with the Old Republic,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: part of the reason why so few people really play
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: it is it's a bit intimidating. I think part of
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: it is that the multiplayer aspect, which I'm hoping that
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: people who listen to this can secure and see, you
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: can play this as a single player. You don't need
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: to have a party, you don't need to play at
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: specific times. You can just play it as a satisfying
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: single player sequel to the Old Republic. But I think
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: also one of the intimidating factors is the sheer size
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: eight game plays, and as you say, each one of
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: them has the kind of depth. You have five companions
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: for every storyline. You know, that's forty characters. And you
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: know in Kotor you can remember your Joe Lee's, you
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: can remember your HK forty seven's, you can remember your
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: your VSUS Mars, your disciples, your handmaidens, all these characters.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: There's only you know, ten or twelve of them, but
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: forty of them. It's hard to kind of pick out
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: which one sticking out. And now I have my own
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: that I remember. I really love the When you're the
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Syth Inquisitor, you kind of kidnap a Jedi apprentice because
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: her family has a line to a Sith ghost. There's
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: this whole Sith ghost plotline that you're following. And I
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: actually got into the game because I found out one
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: of my favorite actresses from a television show was playing
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: that character of the Jedi apprentice. So that character sticks
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: out for me particularly, But other people have played who
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: didn't have that connection, and they thought other characters are
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: much more engaging and out of forty characters, Plus, there's
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: a bunch of additional characters that show up in the
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: endgame content, you can get a bunch of additional companions
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: with their own storylines. It is kind of harder to
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: have some of them stand out. You can have your
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Lord Scourage, a Sith who hates the Emperor who joins
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: the Jedi Night Like, that's something that sticks out because
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: it's a bit different. But there's probably seven well, if
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: you do Sith and Republic, there's probably fourteen Sith or
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Republic military companions because nearly everyone has a military liaison
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: no matter what character you're playing. So how do those
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: stand out? Can I can make my arguments. You've got
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: your Jingo Droid was the trooper who's just hilariously propagandistic
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: and constantly thirsting for the blood of the Empire. You've
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: got your your your defector from the Empire who's sort
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: of like a prisoner on parole, and there's a really
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: interesting tension there that you can either support her or
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: you can kind of marginalize her and be mean to
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: her because she's an Imperial. Like the lieutenant who's the
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: companion in the Jedi Consul, how does he stand out?
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: He doesn't really, He's just a Republic soldier who you
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: have a fun time with. So, Yeah, I think it's
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: really the size that kind of can hamper these discussions
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: because unless someone is really deep into these storylines and
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: has played them relatively recently. Now, I did a rundown
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: of all the companions yesterday trying to prep for this,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: so I kind of have them fresh in my memory.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: But even I'm thinking about that Jedi consoler, I don't
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: remember him. I know he's there. I even had a
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: romance with him as the Jedi Consuler, but I remember
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: what makes him stick out. So I think the size,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: that the sheer number of characters you're encountering does kind
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: of hamper discussion on a granular level for a lot
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: of people.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like, well, you know, I feel like
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: we're doing baswall as we came for a broad overview.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like that, you know, to really give this
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: is due, you need like eight episodes you really have right,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: or you recently played through or at least reviewed each
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: storyline because to each of the individually, and you know
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: they're they're capable of doing that. I mean, there's so
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: much that we want to cover that well, we're not
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: gonna do that here, but I think that that could
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: definitely be done, and I do encourage people too if
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: you haven't done it, I mean, pick up this game.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: It's it's not very difficult to play through, but just
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: focusing on the story elements, I think that it's worth
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: going through each of them. Yeah, yeah, yes. Also you
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: can play for free now it's easier and you get
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: you know, various helps or bonuses for giving a subscription,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: but you don't have to write. So you can literally
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: play it for free, go through each of these class stories,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: and I think that it's it's going to be enjoyable,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: and I think it's good. It's worth doing, even though
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I can't looking back, you know, however, many years later
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: since I played, you know, I can't get into the
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: specifics of the things that happen, but I do at
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the time, it was enriching. And I feel like good
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: stories can be enriching even if you don't clearly remember
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: them consciously. I think that simply participating in them themselves
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: can be a good thing. Yeah. So, I mean, I
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: don't have much else on my part. Is there anything
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: else that you wanted to bring up?
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I would really put in a plug for those non Jedi,
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: non Sith storylines. I think that they really do have
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of value in fleshing out the world and
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: giving you additional moral perspectives. You've got your Mandalorian perspective,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: You've got your Secret to Lulabity perspective. You're at the
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: perspective of someone who's kind of crushed down by Sith
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: bureaucracy and Sith ambition. I think all of those have
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: a spiritual element that Christians can really get a lot from,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: even though they're not directly dealing with that light side
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: dark side dynamic.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I definitely echo that that. I think that
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: those are some of the most fun, most engaging stories.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: And I say this to somebody who like generally I
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: mentioned this in previous conversations. If I'm engaging with Star Wars,
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: I like having the for stuff front and center, typically
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: because to me, that's what Star Wars is. But at
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: the same time, I feel like this game in particular
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: does very well with the non force user stories. So
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I would definitely echo that. But yeah, I think that
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: I'm content wrapping it there. I definitely appreciate you carrying
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: much of this conversation, and next time we will move
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: into something non Star Wars y, well, I'll to narrow
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: down exactly what that is. But Ian, thank you. Are
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: you joining us for the New Hope conversation?
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: I believe so.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: All right, fantastic, Well then I will see you this evening.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Thanks for stopping by. Thanks all right, thanks for listening
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: to that. I hope that you enjoyed that, and I
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: do recommend that you play through that game at some
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: point if you haven't done so already. Now to continue
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: our Mythic Mind Star Wars series, I encourage you to
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: hop over to the main Mythic Mind podcast for a
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: conversation of a New Hope, which that should be coming
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: out on June tenth over on the main Mythic Mind podcast,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: and then I also have an exciting announcement to make
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: over there at that time. But for next time on
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: this podcast, I think that we're going to do a
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: short series, maybe a couple episodes on Red Dead Redemption two,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: which I recently played through, just absolutely incredible game, blew
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: me away, and I really look forward to getting into
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: some of that with you. I think I'm going to
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: do one episode by myself giving my own analysis, and
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: then we'll also have some kind of group conversation about
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: it as well. And if you are enjoying these conversations,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: you like these early episodes of this podcast, and you
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: want to see it keep going on for a long
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: time to come, then I very much welcome your support
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: over on Patreon. And the reality is that we're mythic
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: mind is moving in so many different directions. I personally
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: am moving in so many different directions right I've got
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: these multiple podcasts, I'm teaching courses institutionally as well as independently.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I'm currently writing a book that I need to get
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: done soon on Tolkien, and there are other books that
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I want to that I want to write, and I
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: just I literally am not going to be able to
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: keep doing all these different things without the funding that
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: allows me to buy the time to engage in these
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: sorts of pursuits. And so if you want to see
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: me continue to do this, you want to see these
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: game conversations move on for a long time. You want
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: to see the literature and the movie conversations that are
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: happening elsewhere. You want to see these things keep going
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: in as many directions as are going, and more and
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: further than the going. Then you can support me over
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: on Patreon at Patreon dot com. Slash Mythic Mind. Become
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: a patron of any level, even five dollars a month
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: is helpful and allows you to participate in whichever these
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: conversations interests you. And of course if you can invest
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: more in that, then that's always appreciated and will come
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: with additional perks. And if you don't want to become
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: a recurring patron, but you do just want to throw
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: a few dollars my way as a tip, then you
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: can click on the buy me a coffee link in
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: the show notes. But whether you are able to support
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: me financially or you just continue to listen, I appreciate
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: your company and I really look forward to where we're
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: going from here. Until next time, God speed. The Elder
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Scrolls in Philosophy a six week course beginning in September
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. I don't play many video games these days,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: but there are certain titles that have stuck with me,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: enchanting the mind of my youth and never entirely fading away.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: One of the chiefs among these titles is The Elder Scrolls,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: namely Marowin Oblivion and Skyrim. The level of artistry, mythology
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: and lore of this universe is vast and provides a
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: strong representative for asking the question as to how video
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: games might relate to literature as an art form, Where
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: might it rise to such a level, where must it
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: fall short? And what unique advantages does it possess. For
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: this eight week study, we'll be seeking to answer these
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: questions while analyzing various elements of this franchise, specifically focusing
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: on content related to Marow and Oblivion and Skyrim. Will
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: be taking a look at the philosophy of RPGs and
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: considering the philosophical implications of character creation and formation in
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: an open ended series such as this, and will be
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: looking at the relationship between in game religion, lore, and
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: ideas with our primary world philosophical and religious concepts. Each
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: week will include one to two videos addressing these topics,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: ongoing discord conversations, and live meetings. You are also encouraged
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: to spend at least a little time playing one of
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: these titles each week as a launching pad for conversation.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Join us in Tamreil that we might better understand our
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: primary life here on Monday's enrolled today by going to
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind and checking out the shop,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: or you can access all courses that begin during your
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: subscription period. If you purchase a Tier three annual subscription,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Get that Tier three annual subscription, and I'll give you
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: that special code for your all Access pass. I hope
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: to see you there.