Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jim Allenby about his choice of Can You Hear Me?

Transcript

Talks to Jim Allenby about his choice of Can You Hear Me? · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt. Pen knife for doing.
• 0:35
  Quicker, Quicker. Welcome back to a Hamster with a
• 0:43
  Blunt pen Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary Podcast.
• 0:47
  I'm here today with Joe and he's here with me as well.
• 0:53
  How? How are you today, Joe?
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  I don't know. I just a guy who happened to log
• 1:01
  in on your. Podcast.
• 1:04
  We don't know who that man was at the beginning of that
• 1:06
  episode, but he had a really sexy voice.
• 1:10
  Celebrity haven't detached any fingers today.
• 1:15
  No. Oh dear.
• 1:17
  Do you know what? Right?
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  Imagine waking up in the middle of the night and seeing Ian
• 1:20
  Gelder at the end of your bed in the half dark.
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  Absolutely terrifying. Fingers are a bit comical.
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  Just his face is enough to scare me.
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  Yeah, he's terrifying. He's absolutely terrifying.
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  And he was terrifying in Torchwood as well when he was in
• 1:42
  that. Who was he in?
• 1:43
  Torchwood? Mr. What's his name?
• 1:47
  Mr. Decker? Was it Mr. Decker?
• 1:49
  Oh, in Children of Earth, Yeah. Children of Earth, yeah.
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  He was in, yeah. He had that sort of smile on his
• 1:54
  face when terrible things were happening.
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  Yeah, I haven't watched children there for a long time actually
• 2:02
  need to kind of one of those things that you need to saver, I
• 2:06
  think, but not want to Overwatch.
• 2:09
  The end of torture? Because I couldn't imagine them
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  going to a darker place than Jack murdering his own grandson
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  to save today. No, that show is sick on another
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  level. So what are we?
• 2:21
  What are we talking about today? Today we are talking about the,
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  and I can confirm this due to the Twitter explosion, that
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  we've had a very divisive episode of Jodie Whittaker's
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  second season. Can you hear me?
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  Can you hear me? We should have maybe called this
• 2:40
  episode a hamster with a divisive pen knife.
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  Yeah. Well, but it seems to be like
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  there seems to be a kind of positive sway towards the
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  episode as a whole, and a very divisive opinion on one of the
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  final scenes. Yeah.
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  And I Wait, we'll get there. Yeah, we will and I do.
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  I do wonder if if that divisive scene at the end of it sometimes
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  overshadows what a fantastic story that we do have leading up
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  to up to that point. Because, you know, looking
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  through the Twitter comments and questions, which we'll get to
• 3:24
  later on and we will get to them.
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  There is very little. There is a little discussed
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  about what takes place during the episode, but there's a lot
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  about what takes place at the end of the episode.
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  And it's a shame because, I mean, it's great, but it's a
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  shame because it feels like a lot of it's got lost.
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  There's not a lot of discussion over that.
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  What do you know what? I think in the first season,
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  Jody, which is first season, yeah, there wasn't a lot of
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  this. There wasn't a lot of debate.
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  And I think Chibber's is more savvy than people.
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  Give him credit. I think he knew this, this final
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  scene was going to be divisive and suddenly people were talking
• 4:10
  about the show in the positive and the negative and the issues
• 4:15
  that the episode brings up in a very passionate way.
• 4:18
  I can confirm that's annoying. Had a very passionate debate
• 4:23
  with somebody and it kind of Harkins back to some of the
• 4:29
  stuff that was going on in the Stephen Moffett era where there
• 4:31
  was just debate all the time because he was doing quite
• 4:33
  radical things with the show and experimental things with the
• 4:36
  show and people were talking on. I don't think that's healthy.
• 4:40
  It is healthy. It is healthy.
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  I think. I think people need to have a an
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  open, healthy debate about things.
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  And I think people need to respect people's opinions.
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  And I'm pleased to say I'm the sort of person, I hope I'm the
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  sort of person who can listen to other people and who can take on
• 5:03
  board their argument without dismissing it or insulting.
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  Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, I would, I was thinking
• 5:14
  about this before we before we started.
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  And it's like sometimes being a Doctor Who fan is being a fan of
• 5:21
  ice creams or desserts or something like that.
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  It's like I prefer mint ice cream to strawberry ice cream,
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  but it doesn't mean I'm going to go and attack the person who's
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  buying a strawberry ice cream. You know, I'm.
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  And there is no right or wrong in that debate as well.
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  It's so subjective. Like you cannot definitively say
• 5:37
  mint chop chick ice cream is the best ice cream just because
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  that's the one that you like. But there does seem to be a
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  certain corner of fandom that think because that's their
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  opinion. It is the opinion.
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  Yeah. And it's not.
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  There's so many I I can't. I I used to.
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  I used to go to a a scifi shop in my town and this, this the
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  guy who owns it is a nice guy. But he used to say to me he was
• 6:04
  a massive fan of Doctor Who from the 70s.
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  He grew up watching. I think probably season 17 was
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  his first season and he got into the 80s stuff and he loved it
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  when he was a huge fan and when RTD brought it back, he just
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  hated it. He hated it.
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  And with each different. Doctor, no, don't like it.
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  It's not Doctor Who, it's not Doctor Who, this isn't Doctor
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  Who. This isn't Doctor Who.
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  And I would say to him, but Doctor Who, the whole one of the
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  wonderful things about the series is that it changes
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  constantly. It will always have that feeling
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  of Doctor Who in it, but it doesn't always have to be the
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  same because if it was always the same, it would be so dull,
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  you know? I mean I the the Sylvester McCoy
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  era is nothing like the Hartnell era.
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  The Pertry era is nothing like the Colin Baker era.
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  It changes all the time. And to just suddenly dismiss, to
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  dismiss it because it doesn't feel like what you grew up with
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  is just so narrow minded I think.
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  But the sort of the big difference there is that's fair
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  enough to have that opinion? Absolutely, yeah.
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  But that doesn't mean it's not Doctor Who.
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  Just because it's not Doctor Who for you, For you is the
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  important thing there. Yeah, exactly.
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  Exactly. Do you know what else is really
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  healthy? What's that?
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  Talking about mental health? Yes.
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  And I think both this and Vincent and the Doctor less so.
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  Because I think that's a more popular episode, but they do
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  come in for a bit of criticism for bringing these sort of, I'm
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  going to say in inverted commas, woke issues into into the show.
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  I'm somebody that struggled with my mental health for many, many
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  years and I have really good periods and I have really bad
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  periods and I've learned how to handle my mental health
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  extremely well, but in my worst periods.
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  It was pretty bad. I'm talking about this stuff
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  really, really helps. And I think any episode of
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  Doctor Who that is encouraging people to talk about mental
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  health is doing something massively positive.
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  Absolutely. It isn't, you know?
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  And I think more people need to know that it's okay to talk
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  about it. You know, I suffered with my,
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  with my mental health, you know, it was a couple of years ago now
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  and I got myself into such a place where I just couldn't.
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  I just felt like I couldn't talk to anybody anymore.
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  I felt like I was lost and and then I realized that there
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  would, I could talk to people and there were people out there
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  that I that I could talk to. And you know you I think this
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  whole kind of the thing that you hear people you know saying all
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  you know people people being called snowflakes and things
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  like that because they because they're because they're the
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  because of the mental health. I don't think that's you know
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  that's not fair on people because people need to talk and
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  I don't think there's anything wrong with with being able to
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  talk about things. I don't I've never understood
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  that kind of stiff up a lip kind of attitude that you have to
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  have. You know it's.
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  I do wonder if we're a couple of generations away from that not
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  being a problem anymore. You know, I think there'll
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  always be people that, you know, think you're a bit of a wimp for
• 9:44
  having your heart on your sleeve.
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  But I think I think in the future that would be less.
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  And in this episode in particular, they take such a
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  clever approach to mental health because there's three separate
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  storylines. There's Yaz and her past with
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  depression, and I think there's a strong suggestion that she's
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  suicidal. Then you've got Ryan's friend
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  who is extremely depressed and insular and has cut himself off
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  from everybody. And then you've got Graham who's
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  dealt with something massive in his life and has huge sort of
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  worries that that may reoccur. And I think as you sort of watch
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  this episode you could potentially be any one of those
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  three and and any one of those 3 is that is sort of you're in to
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  this episode. I don't think so.
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  And you know I've I've Ryan's friend Thibo he's I didn't quite
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  get to that extreme point because I have people around me
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  who didn't allow me to get to that point.
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  You know people who eventually realized that you know that they
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  could help me. So I never got myself to that,
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  to that stage. But you can see it.
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  You can see is that I see myself in him of of what I potentially
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  could have become if I hadn't opened up.
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  And you know, I think I said to you last night when we were
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  messaging that, you know, I actually had a tear in my eye
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  when I was watching that, that that scene.
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  Because it just reminded me of the the the very black hole that
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  I was. I had inside me at the time
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  because I, you know, because I I didn't want to talk about it.
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  I just felt I could carry on, carry on and.
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  Yeah, the storyline that moved me the most and the 1:00 I could
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  relate to was Yassis. That's not because of, well,
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  actually during my doctors, I did head up to the I live on the
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  South Downs and I did head up to the hills.
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  Not to commit suicide, I would add, but just because it was
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  sort of an open space to think. But I had somebody who in my
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  life was extremely kind to me when I was in that dark place,
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  and who was so kind and funny and patient and listened.
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  And would just listen to me and I would ball into tears and and
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  just advise me and and just sort of be normal with me when I was
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  in the dark place and I got the chance.
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  Just like Yaz does when she gives her the 50 P to go to that
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  person when I felt better and thank them for it.
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  And I think that's a really responsible approach as well.
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  You you're basically saying you can go through stuff and still
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  have worries. You can go through stuff and
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  feel better and you can have ongoing mental health issues.
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  It it actually tackles all three of those things it does because
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  you know it doesn't go away. You know I think when I had my
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  issues and and you know I I won't go into too much detail
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  about it all. But when I, you know when I had
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  my issues I I was like I I went to see a counselor for six
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  weeks. I think it was a council for six
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  weeks and you kind of you just think I'm fine now.
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  So what I did is I stopped using the building blocks that I'd put
• 13:00
  into place to help me because I thought I'm all right now and
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  that wasn't the case and and you know to this day I have to I
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  still slip back sometimes and you have to put you have to kind
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  of build yourself back up again and and go back to those those
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  building blocks that you were taught to to to use.
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  And because it doesn't it it doesn't go away.
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  And I think it's also it's important that you know this
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  this story also like you say it doesn't doesn't tell you that
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  everything's magically better. You know it leaves you with you
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  know things are not things that things are not always going to
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  be better. There's no click of the fingers
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  and things things are perfect. It doesn't.
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  That's, you know, that's not how life works.
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  Because Graham's oh, I'm Sort of better now is probably going off
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  in the TARDIS and having these wonderful adventures.
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  And this just goes to show even that's not enough to keep the
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  fears away. Yeah.
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  Yeah. And it's actually it's it's
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  really interesting because it's, you know you've got Ryan who's
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  kind of at the end of the episode saying, you know we're
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  we're we're moving on and we're not with we know we're leaving
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  our lives behind and and that kind of starts feeding into him
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  eventually leaving. Whereas you've got Yaz who's
• 14:20
  quite excited. It's the it's the excitement of
• 14:24
  the adventure that you know she realizes she's found herself
• 14:28
  this this exciting life. So for you know those characters
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  are going in totally opposite directions by by the end of this
• 14:35
  episode. What's interesting with Yazis is
• 14:38
  come revolution of the Daleks. She's in a dark place again.
• 14:42
  She's lost the Doctor and she's obsessed with getting her back
• 14:45
  and getting back to that lifestyle to the point where
• 14:47
  she's totally withdrawn to that TARDIS And what's brought up
• 14:51
  there and what's brought up here makes me wonder as he post Power
• 14:54
  of the Doctor. Where she's had to leave that
• 14:56
  life behind is she can have another moment again.
• 14:59
  Maybe it looks like she's got all that support of the other
• 15:02
  companions, but if she has got sort of an aptitude for this
• 15:06
  sort of mental state, then then maybe she's got tricky times
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  ahead. Yeah, it's an interesting, it's
• 15:12
  an interesting idea, and I do hope we revisit YAZ one day in
• 15:16
  the future. I think anybody that says that
• 15:19
  these regulars aren't defined and are developed within this
• 15:23
  episode, they're watching us like very different for me,
• 15:26
  yeah, they are. They are.
• 15:28
  This is like this is the most developed of the companions I
• 15:33
  think I've ever, I've ever seen. You know, it's you know, they
• 15:38
  might not be my favorite companions, but they are
• 15:42
  definitely the most developed companions that I've ever seen.
• 15:45
  Well, I want to say something about how subtly done it all is
• 15:50
  as well. I've often made this comparison
• 15:52
  that the characterization in the sort of series one to 10 can be
• 15:58
  very heightened and a bit hysterical.
• 16:01
  And we love it because it's hugely melodramatic, you know,
• 16:04
  together or not at all, you know, don't know how many
• 16:08
  memories ripped away from her. And it's all and it's amazing
• 16:10
  drama. And this is so much subtler than
• 16:14
  that. Graham's confession to the
• 16:17
  doctor and Yas's moment on the hill and Ryan's quiet scenes
• 16:21
  with his friend. But actually, I'll say one to
• 16:25
  10, is TV drama. This feels far more like real
• 16:32
  drama to me. You know what actually happens
• 16:35
  in people's lives. And I think it's really
• 16:37
  interesting for the show to sort of touch on that.
• 16:40
  Yeah. And and it's and I think you
• 16:42
  know that's probably why there was so much of AI don't want to
• 16:47
  say there was a there was a that people weren't really enjoying
• 16:51
  series 11. But it was such a change.
• 16:54
  It was such a gear change from you know the the the wild
• 16:58
  adventures and you know you know the Capaldi finale and twice
• 17:04
  upon a time and and all of a sudden were dropped into this
• 17:08
  kind of someday evening drama with people that we probably
• 17:16
  know and we talk to and we we're friends with and we we work
• 17:20
  with. And I think I think that's
• 17:25
  probably I think he probably pulled the rug out from
• 17:27
  underneath a few people's feet and and what I what I've noticed
• 17:32
  over the last few years is that people are those that maybe
• 17:35
  didn't like it to start with a kind of coming around to coming
• 17:39
  around to it now. And I I absolutely from from to
• 17:43
  get go as soon as Jody came onto onto the screen as soon as that
• 17:47
  first episode was on I was like wow this is this is good.
• 17:51
  This is different. This is this you know the show
• 17:53
  needed shaking up a little bit and that's not that's not to say
• 17:57
  that I wasn't enjoying it but it was kind of a bit like each year
• 18:01
  Doctor Who came out it's another series load of exciting
• 18:04
  adventures and then we move on get another series and it kind
• 18:09
  of every now and again Doctor Who just needs fresh you know
• 18:11
  and he's freshening up and and Chibnam came along and whether
• 18:16
  you you know whether you enjoy all of his writing or whether
• 18:19
  you enjoy the characterization of the Doctor or what it needed.
• 18:23
  It needed something something else and I think it didn't.
• 18:26
  I think it pulled the rug under, pulled the rug out from under a
• 18:30
  lot of people. And whilst I love that sort of
• 18:34
  melodrama. Of those first ten seasons, you
• 18:37
  know, you know me over the top bloke and I love all of that
• 18:41
  sort of madly expressed emotion. I'm really surprised very often
• 18:48
  in TV how much subtle drama moves me and and not going for
• 18:56
  the sort of soap opera hysterics.
• 18:58
  Instead going for something a bit more naturalistic, which I
• 19:01
  think this era does as well. And we ain't even touched on any
• 19:05
  of the Doctor Who stuff in this episode yet.
• 19:07
  You know, you should press play, you know, because we should have
• 19:10
  a few tweets to get through at the end.
• 19:13
  I think it's going to be a. It's going to be a task
• 19:18
  navigating the more you've got. You've got comments within
• 19:23
  comments and tweets within. They'll do it, don't you?
• 19:26
  Why? We'll untangle that web and I
• 19:29
  shall tell everyone how they're wrong.
• 19:31
  No, sorry. How?
• 19:32
  Their opinions are very valid. Do you want to count this in?
• 19:37
  I will, yes. And we'll go in 54321 Go.
• 19:44
  I mean, you're saying, so, you know, we've been able to have
• 19:46
  1/2 an hour discussion before we even started the episode and we
• 19:49
  barely touched upon, you know, a fraction of the episode.
• 19:53
  Yeah. And I like these.
• 19:56
  What I what I've noticed is is one thing that's improved so
• 20:02
  much over the years in Doctor Who is the kind of CG landscapes
• 20:06
  that we that we see now. Yeah, You feel like you feel
• 20:12
  like you're looking at actually looking at it and it's not, you
• 20:16
  know, it's not CG creation. This weird enough to start with
• 20:22
  a criticism perhaps would have just got rid of all the Aleppo
• 20:25
  scenes. Now I think they're incredibly
• 20:27
  well realized. Sets are great, the light is
• 20:30
  great, the CGI is great, the monster is great, and I even
• 20:33
  think the characters are fun. But I think it's, as usual in
• 20:36
  Season 12, maybe one element too much.
• 20:40
  I think so. I mean, I think, you know, one
• 20:43
  of one of the criticisms of of the chip malarias of too many
• 20:46
  people. And I think that what you're
• 20:50
  doing here is you're introducing another character here, Tahira
• 20:55
  and Tahira. I don't know if it's Tahira or
• 20:57
  Tahira, she goes. Tahira, yeah.
• 21:01
  And so you're introducing, you're introducing her and
• 21:08
  perhaps it could have been retooled for it to have been.
• 21:10
  One of the one of the companions instead.
• 21:13
  Say this about Jody Whisker episodes.
• 21:15
  You know where they bring in all these guest stars.
• 21:17
  Perhaps this could have been a more substantial role for one of
• 21:20
  the companions. Well, the perfect example of
• 21:23
  that is in is in resolution with the policewoman, I can't
• 21:28
  remember name now what they could have been.
• 21:30
  Yes, you know you've got a ready made police policewoman there.
• 21:36
  That would have been great as well.
• 21:38
  Do you know this is one of the very few Doctor Who stories that
• 21:41
  is both written and directed by a woman.
• 21:46
  Yes, and it's it's also the is she the second, the only the 2nd
• 21:55
  black woman to have written an episode as well?
• 21:58
  Really. Yeah, Charlotte are into Doctor
• 22:01
  Who. That is shocking.
• 22:04
  No, I'm wondering if the reason these things are included is
• 22:11
  because they didn't think people would get on board with this
• 22:14
  without a monster, like an actual monster.
• 22:17
  Whereas you've got two gods, you've got mental health issues
• 22:20
  which could be a monster all on its own, and then you've got
• 22:23
  this bloody great creature which looks great, yeah, but I think
• 22:27
  it's the weakest of the free. I think so.
• 22:30
  And you know, it's, I think is it.
• 22:36
  Yeah, I think. You could have you could have
• 22:38
  easily have brought that into into the into the kind of the
• 22:43
  modern era and had that even even perhaps he has his sister
• 22:47
  could have been you know the one that was being terrorized by
• 22:51
  these by these creatures. But yeah it's and also cold
• 22:58
  opening as well before the theme tune.
• 23:00
  So we don't. We don't.
• 23:01
  We didn't get a lot of them in the chimney.
• 23:03
  Ever did one? No.
• 23:04
  And they're usually pretty good when they do.
• 23:07
  Is that the right? Is that the right word, Cold
• 23:08
  opening? Or is it a cold opening when it
• 23:10
  goes straight into the titles I'll just call it a pre title
• 23:12
  sequence. Well I've been I've been sort of
• 23:15
  programmed by Americans call it that as they did it long before
• 23:20
  we did. Now this was great though this
• 23:23
  and this reminded me remember in Spy for when we caught up with
• 23:25
  all of them at home and then we're doing it again here.
• 23:30
  Yes, it's going home to assist to commemorate.
• 23:33
  We don't know what. Yeah, Ryan's off to see his
• 23:36
  friend, and Graham is there with his mates, and I like that, sort
• 23:42
  of. It annoys me less than sort of
• 23:45
  the Clara Roswell thing of her constantly being at home and
• 23:49
  traveling and sort of having one foot in the door.
• 23:51
  Yeah, it works better. You know, you kind of.
• 23:55
  It's the sort of thing you would do if you were genuinely
• 23:58
  traveling. You know you would go back home
• 24:00
  every now and again. You just you wouldn't go back
• 24:02
  home at the end of each day. Well, you might do it depends on
• 24:04
  where you go. But you know, and I love the
• 24:07
  kind of the this color scheme in the TARDIS when it goes red and
• 24:11
  creepy, Oh my. Word.
• 24:12
  I'm not sure you could have it all the time because we couldn't
• 24:15
  have the TARDIS that can act creepy all the time.
• 24:16
  No, no, but it's it's definitely lit better in series 12, I think
• 24:22
  from how it was lit in when it goes all red in Timeless
• 24:28
  Children as well before the you do come in, every time they lie,
• 24:31
  another color is automatically more atmospheric.
• 24:34
  It is, It is. It makes you wonder why they
• 24:37
  settled on the color scheme to the original color scheme to
• 24:40
  start with. I'm still baffled by those
• 24:42
  penises that come down to the time she touches the controls,
• 24:45
  but you know. That's the one thing there's a
• 24:49
  lot of hate for the. The interior of her TARDIS.
• 24:55
  But the only thing I didn't, the only thing I wasn't keen on was
• 24:59
  the penises. So, you know, I mean, I can
• 25:02
  understand that given, you know, you are a heterosexual man.
• 25:05
  I get it. Oh my God, this line of rhymes.
• 25:11
  I don't often like Ryan's line readings, but when he goes.
• 25:14
  But I've got chips though that line.
• 25:19
  It sounds like such a dork. Isn't it lovely to see Yazzie's
• 25:23
  sister again as well? Yeah, yeah, it's nice because
• 25:27
  and sadly, we don't really get to see.
• 25:29
  We don't get to see kind of her parents and sister we never get.
• 25:37
  I think we could, we should have seen, we should have seen more
• 25:39
  of them, or at least seen them towards the end of the era
• 25:46
  maybe. And look, these two characters
• 25:49
  here are playing cards with Graham.
• 25:50
  They are one scene characters. We never ever seen them again
• 25:54
  before or since. Yeah, and yet, because Bradley
• 25:57
  Walsh has got such an effortless way with people, I just feel
• 26:00
  like they've been friends for years.
• 26:04
  He's just so natural and and he's kind of the way he delivers
• 26:08
  his dialogue as well. There's a few, there's a few
• 26:12
  things that he does which I picked up over, picked up on.
• 26:15
  He'll kind of be saying something and then he'll put
• 26:18
  himself up saying it and and say something else.
• 26:22
  And it happens a few times in in this, and it's just it's just a
• 26:25
  very naturalistic way of playing a character.
• 26:31
  And I think he's the best actor on the ensemble.
• 26:36
  Yes, I think he is. Actually, I do.
• 26:39
  No, I think Jody's the best actor in the ensemble.
• 26:41
  But I don't. I love Jody Whitaker's Dr. I
• 26:45
  don't think we saw her entire potential realized.
• 26:49
  No, I think she she she definitely develops and she gets
• 26:54
  better as each series goes on. I think when they then they
• 26:58
  allow her to play, you know, things a little bit darker from
• 27:03
  time to time and it kind of shows you her range.
• 27:08
  You know this sometimes she does it with just a look as well.
• 27:12
  You know, even in even you know in the very first episode of the
• 27:17
  the woman who fell to earth and the the scene where she's
• 27:20
  watching Ryan on his bike on the distance and it's just just that
• 27:25
  she's not saying anything. It's just the look that she that
• 27:28
  she gives, the look she just gives to that creature, then
• 27:33
  what the hell is that terrible bit of CGI?
• 27:37
  Jesus Christ. It's not.
• 27:39
  It's not. It's not perfect is it?
• 27:41
  I think she's characterized super well in this.
• 27:43
  I really love the fact that she can't just wait around the
• 27:46
  TARDIS for them, what we're going to do whilst everyone's
• 27:49
  actually guys, I could always skip forward to the next day
• 27:51
  when they're back. But no, she finds her own
• 27:55
  mysteries to solve. It's it's it's, you know, it's
• 27:58
  one of the things I like about her.
• 27:59
  She's she's all for wanting to have an adventure and get out
• 28:02
  there. And she's not.
• 28:03
  She's not brooding and she's not.
• 28:05
  You know she doesn't. She doesn't tend to be want to
• 28:09
  be kind of on her own and you know that that that kind of
• 28:13
  comes across a little bit. You know without the that
• 28:16
  divisive scene at the end as well where she's kind of
• 28:20
  everybody's discussing the feelings and she just quickly
• 28:23
  wants to get on to the next adventure.
• 28:25
  You know almost as if and we will get to it.
• 28:27
  You know, we won't be able to avoid that, but it's it's almost
• 28:30
  like she's she masks her. Anxiety as you know, a social
• 28:38
  anxiety with let's just get back into it, let's get back into it.
• 28:42
  You know, I don't want to talk about this.
• 28:43
  Let's let's get out there and have some fun, you know, and
• 28:47
  there are other occasions of her sort of stepping back from
• 28:51
  moments where she could have gone all in, like tenant would
• 28:54
  have all passed at Smith. You know, I think she keeps a
• 28:57
  deliberate distance from her companions to an extent.
• 29:01
  She does, yeah. Yeah, I don't think anyone
• 29:04
  expected of the first female Doctor.
• 29:06
  No, I quite like. Yeah, I like it.
• 29:09
  I can't remember which episode it is.
• 29:11
  I don't know if it's after Fugitive, Fugitive of the Doom,
• 29:17
  when Yaz is asking her what's wrong and she's just kind of
• 29:20
  like nothing. Nothing's wrong.
• 29:22
  And it's kind of, she's very much, she doesn't want to talk
• 29:24
  about it. She just wants to.
• 29:26
  She just wants to sweep that away, you know?
• 29:29
  And I like that in the last season you get a lot of things
• 29:32
  of yaz saying no. You're going to tell me what's
• 29:36
  going on and why you're so bothered and what bloody mystery
• 29:40
  is you're trying to solve. And eventually she just breaks
• 29:42
  down that wall to only to Yaz and they get incredibly close in
• 29:47
  those last couple of episodes. What makes that part at the end
• 29:50
  so touching? This is really great because
• 29:53
  when I did my SO when I walked out of my depression at its
• 29:59
  lowest point, I then decided to give back a little bit.
• 30:01
  So I joined mine as a volunteer and I went on the befriending
• 30:06
  program to help other people that were going through that.
• 30:08
  And one of like there was lots of great stuff in the training
• 30:12
  about signs that people could be depressed or could be feeling
• 30:16
  low. And the messy house like this
• 30:20
  was one of those signs that people sort of not and personal
• 30:22
  hygiene and things like that. So I think all the details here
• 30:26
  are absolutely spot on. I don't know if they probably
• 30:29
  got some advice from outside. It does make me wonder.
• 30:34
  I mean, I don't know the background of the writer really.
• 30:38
  I tried to do a bit of research onto her, but.
• 30:43
  She doesn't really come up with much, so I don't know if this is
• 30:46
  kind of written from anything that she's experienced or not.
• 30:49
  I know it's written with Chibnil though as well as it's kind of
• 30:51
  Co written with him. I'm wondering if he's pushing
• 30:54
  some of the regulars character development.
• 30:58
  Yeah, I think so, Yeah. Or he was like, no, I'm just
• 31:02
  gonna get a mention of the toy maker in there and the Eternals
• 31:05
  as well. We're doing Gods, but what I
• 31:10
  love about her sister in this is that she was a bit she was sort
• 31:14
  of like the comic foil in Iraq is in the UK.
• 31:16
  Was she the annoying sister? And I really like the fact that
• 31:19
  they show a different shade to their relationship here, where
• 31:22
  she wants to celebrate enough here that Yaz is alive.
• 31:26
  Yeah, it's very real, isn't it? It's it's a very real
• 31:30
  relationship, you know? It's like when she says that
• 31:34
  she's she lost a job and she's just.
• 31:37
  It's just normal dialogue, isn't it?
• 31:41
  Between people. There's no reason other than it
• 31:47
  to be. It's just natural dialogue
• 31:49
  between people. That's why I enjoy it so much.
• 31:52
  It feels real. Another thing I really like
• 31:57
  about this is how for a while it feels a bit like one of those,
• 32:02
  you know, what I used to have in the heart of era, The part
• 32:04
  historical stories, the future stories, and then the sort of
• 32:07
  sideways adventures, Space Museum, episode one Planet the
• 32:11
  Giants. You know, stories that didn't
• 32:13
  quite fit into the passing. And for quite a while this feels
• 32:17
  like one of those. It is a contemporary story and
• 32:20
  it's this sort of fantasy story or dark fantasy story with
• 32:24
  having these chilling dreams and Graham having these weird
• 32:28
  visions. Do you think this is great, the
• 32:32
  way they film this? It is and it's so creepy the the
• 32:36
  way they they filmed the the police the police officer.
• 32:39
  She's just, it's proper. You know, that desolate road,
• 32:45
  and that feels sort of nightmareish, doesn't it?
• 32:48
  That's all being all on your own.
• 32:50
  Yeah, it's proper and just glimpses of a nightmare as well.
• 32:56
  And here he is. I've said it before, and I've
• 32:59
  said it again. If I woke up and Ian Gelda was
• 33:02
  there in the shadows, staring at me, I would shit the bed.
• 33:08
  There was a lot of talk at the time.
• 33:10
  Well, say there was a lot of talk.
• 33:12
  It's just reading, reading comments that people thought he
• 33:15
  might have been that to be the Black Guardian at the time.
• 33:18
  But that never obviously came to be.
• 33:21
  I mean, they're all supposed to be in that sort of group, aren't
• 33:23
  they? This pair?
• 33:26
  Why this pair called Zelin and? I've written a name down.
• 33:32
  Remember it? Fabulous woman with the white
• 33:34
  hair. Oh yeah.
• 33:35
  She's beautiful as well, isn't she?
• 33:40
  I can't find. I can't remember.
• 33:41
  Her name is now. It's not Zakia, is it?
• 33:44
  No, Sure. Well, we'll see when she comes
• 33:47
  along. Like those fingertips are going
• 33:52
  into his ear. I do think that's quite funny.
• 33:55
  Like he he could have done it with a look.
• 33:57
  Gelder is good enough that he could do it with a look, you
• 33:59
  know. Yeah, but again, it's it's, you
• 34:02
  know, it's doing something that will terrify the kids as well,
• 34:06
  you know? Or or all the kids will find
• 34:08
  that fun. And you know, you know, the
• 34:11
  man's fingers will come off and stick in your ear, and the kids
• 34:14
  can do that. You know, it's like a wet Willy,
• 34:16
  isn't it? Wet Willy, you know, No.
• 34:23
  You suck your finger and stick it in someone's ear and it was
• 34:26
  called a wet Willy. I wasn't going around sitting in
• 34:28
  the playground. Did you?
• 34:33
  No, nothing in Crawley, but we were a bit electric.
• 34:36
  So you have to forgive us. Jodie's hair is a bit longer in
• 34:42
  this as well. It's nice.
• 34:46
  I like it. It's a good look on it.
• 34:47
  See, these are I love all these sets in Aleppo.
• 34:50
  Yeah. Although it does feel a little
• 34:54
  bit like a studio, yeah, but it doesn't feel like they've gone
• 35:04
  to a location to film it, because they obviously haven't
• 35:06
  had they. But they're sort of vast, aren't
• 35:09
  they? They're big MM HM, good
• 35:13
  lighting. Yeah, this cool merge thing.
• 35:17
  It's great. Yeah, yeah.
• 35:20
  Did you ever see that? Somebody put together a I don't
• 35:24
  know if it was the Doctor Poop Twitter account put together
• 35:29
  this scene, but she was on the phone to so many different
• 35:31
  people. She was on the phone to Rose, on
• 35:33
  the phone to Donna and Martha, and it was just hilarious.
• 35:39
  Cool. Merge.
• 35:39
  I'm bringing you all together. Then you get the three of them
• 35:43
  in split screen. You know who my friend Tahira?
• 35:49
  Well, that is 1. Old thing is because then they
• 35:51
  take to here in the TARDIS and then to the future, to this
• 35:53
  weird space station, and she takes it all in her stride.
• 35:58
  But again, I mean Chipnel Chipnel's kind of, he does that
• 36:01
  quite often. I mean he did it in in dinosaur
• 36:04
  on the spaceship as well didn't he's he he takes in the the
• 36:07
  Hunter. I can't remember the the
• 36:09
  Hunter's name. He's got Rory's dad's, and yeah,
• 36:12
  yeah, he's he just, he seems to like gathering a lot of people
• 36:16
  in into the TARDIS. You know these telepathic
• 36:21
  circuits or whatever is she uses on Graham in a minute to take
• 36:25
  them to the other place. You know where the woman's being
• 36:28
  held prisoner is that the same ones that is used in dark water?
• 36:33
  I think it's the same idea, but it's the the ones in dark water
• 36:37
  and it's is it in Listen as well.
• 36:40
  It's like they stick the fingers in the in the console, like it's
• 36:44
  some kind of Jelly. It's been upgraded to a helmet.
• 36:52
  Her face there. Was.
• 36:55
  She's like, ooh, oh, Jesus Christ, Jim Ryan is so
• 36:59
  beautiful. I don't care that he's a bit
• 37:01
  boring. He's so pretty.
• 37:04
  And it's such a shame that he didn't.
• 37:06
  He didn't get to come back for a brief scene with with Graham and
• 37:10
  the Power of the Doctor. The only thing I think that's
• 37:13
  missing from that well, I'm Chris Knopf and John Barrowman,
• 37:18
  but we know why they weren't there.
• 37:19
  Yeah, yeah, they're gone. This, this with with Graham, he
• 37:27
  starts saying about, yeah, if you get me an A-Z for the
• 37:30
  universe, I can point my finger on the planet and it's like, no,
• 37:33
  I can't, I don't know. And it's that kind of natural
• 37:36
  kind of. He stops himself talking.
• 37:41
  You know, yeah, it almost. It's almost like Bradley Walsh
• 37:45
  wit rather than Graham Wit, you know?
• 37:47
  And I like that. Yeah, I think he's sort of
• 37:50
  really merged into the part now where you can see Bradley Walsh,
• 37:53
  the entertainer, coming out as well.
• 37:54
  Yeah, and they do him up quite they they age him up a little
• 37:59
  bit, don't they, as Graham? Because I don't think he is kind
• 38:03
  of, he don't think he looks that.
• 38:05
  He doesn't look old as Graham, but I think they age him up
• 38:08
  slightly with the makeup. Now these again, are very
• 38:11
  obviously sets. This space station where, boy,
• 38:14
  could you imagine if the Graham Williams era, which had a lot of
• 38:16
  these sort of space stations and corridors, looked as good as
• 38:19
  this. I like all the weird crisscros,
• 38:24
  sort of girders, the way she plays a violin or something.
• 38:28
  It's strings, isn't it? To get the.
• 38:30
  Yeah, yeah, we'd be. We'd be having beige corridors
• 38:34
  and the people in. Silver suits.
• 38:36
  Suddenly I I really watched The Nightmare of Eden the other
• 38:38
  night. So yeah, it's very fresh in my
• 38:41
  mind. It's very well lit, isn't it?
• 38:44
  But I feel like designs come on in leaps and bounds in the new
• 38:47
  series, even from Moffett's era. Yeah, we we're no longer using.
• 38:51
  Well, we may still be using it at some point, but we're no
• 38:54
  longer using the, you know, the Temple of Peace or corridors
• 38:57
  under the Millennium Stadium. Is it the Millennium Stadium or
• 39:00
  kind of Marble Wolves again? Or the same, the same lift shot.
• 39:08
  This is the second time today I've got to compliment Second
• 39:12
  iconola's music, but he's playing heavy bass instruments
• 39:16
  in this and he's doing string work which goes up and down your
• 39:20
  spine. It's really great school.
• 39:24
  Well, what I noticed the other day when I was re watching it,
• 39:30
  there's pretty much. A very low ambient music
• 39:34
  throughout the entire episode. It's always kind of there, just
• 39:37
  it's not too loud. It's not overpowering until it
• 39:41
  needs to be overpowering, but it's always there.
• 39:44
  There's always a little bit of music just playing under each
• 39:47
  scene. And I think that kind of rap
• 39:49
  that kind of ramps up the tension and the kind of, yeah,
• 39:53
  the the tension of it all. I love it when every time he
• 39:58
  appears in someone's room and that bass goes by oh God.
• 40:03
  Each time they tell you the bit that gets me is when when he's
• 40:07
  when Zelen stood in, stood in the child's bedroom.
• 40:11
  And the camera. The camera pans and you get the
• 40:15
  each time I see it, I jump. Each time.
• 40:17
  She goes there's no such fingers to Boogeyman, and he goes that's
• 40:20
  not true. This is really nice as well.
• 40:26
  I like the the smoke effect that goes across where you see the
• 40:29
  the picture going across as Smokey pattern.
• 40:34
  It's good. It's really good direction.
• 40:36
  It is it's really good direction.
• 40:38
  And I also, you know you you kind of I like the fact that and
• 40:45
  I feel bad that I cannot remember the the other actresses
• 40:49
  the other character's name but she that that she's calling out
• 40:53
  to Graham you know save me, can you hear me?
• 40:56
  Help me. And later on he has that
• 40:59
  nightmare of grace saying why didn't you save me, you know.
• 41:04
  So she's kind of playing on that on his guilt of it all.
• 41:08
  You know, come and save me. And Speaking of somebody you
• 41:11
  know, who's been having some pretty lucid, like, I don't
• 41:15
  really remember my dreams, but for some reason in the last
• 41:18
  couple of months I've been sort of drifting lightly.
• 41:21
  In the mornings and having some pretty potent, scary dreams
• 41:26
  about people I know behaving in ways that frighten me.
• 41:32
  Yeah, I used to. I don't remember my dreams
• 41:34
  anymore. I used to when I was a kid.
• 41:36
  I still remember the dreams I was when I was a kid.
• 41:38
  They were terrified, but I don't tend to remember them anymore.
• 41:42
  So the one thing I don't like is that there's an awful lot of
• 41:46
  tick the Babble in these scenes. Yeah, and.
• 41:48
  Star Trek. I'll just switch off
• 41:49
  immediately. Yeah, this and.
• 41:51
  And I think this is where it sags a little bit.
• 41:54
  You know, you've got there was a there was a line which Jody
• 41:59
  said, which the doctor said just a little bit ago, where she says
• 42:05
  it just felt so unnaturalistic. Where she says this place has so
• 42:10
  much, so many secrets to yield. And I was just like, that
• 42:13
  doesn't sound like a natural line.
• 42:15
  It just feels like it's forced in.
• 42:16
  It's not techno bubble, but it does this this kind of middle
• 42:20
  bit sags a little bit, I think, because it's just too much.
• 42:23
  I get the impression this setting is supposed to be like a
• 42:27
  really scary, nightmarish setting.
• 42:29
  And what it feels like to me is just a particularly well
• 42:32
  designed and lit sort of space station, You know, because it's
• 42:36
  got the fingers hanging and all of that, isn't it?
• 42:38
  Yeah. Now this is where it picks up
• 42:42
  again. Yeah, yeah, we're suddenly back
• 42:45
  to. To where?
• 42:49
  Interesting stuff. Well, it's it's basically their
• 42:54
  fears taken to the nth degree, isn't it?
• 42:56
  So in this version, is it the sister that's going through what
• 43:00
  Yaz went through or is it this is just saying to where no one's
• 43:03
  coming for you, I think. I think, I think the sister was
• 43:09
  the one who called the police to go and help Yaz.
• 43:15
  And I think he has his fear here is possibly that this time Sonia
• 43:21
  is not going to do that. And she's saying to her, you
• 43:24
  know, you know go and you're alone in the dark and you know I
• 43:28
  got that's the that's what I got from it.
• 43:31
  That that she's now worried that the one that actually helped to
• 43:35
  to kind of, you know, put her back onto this path of being
• 43:39
  helped is now not there. That that's that's what I got
• 43:43
  from it. That pullback from Yaz there, I
• 43:47
  think that's one of the best shots in the whole episode.
• 43:49
  That really feels like a nightmare.
• 43:51
  You are completely alone in this desperate landscape.
• 43:54
  Yeah, there's nothing there. And then you get Ryan's friend
• 43:58
  basically saying you weren't there for me, Yeah.
• 44:04
  Sure. The Flames are a bit much, Yeah.
• 44:06
  I'm not quite. And I wasn't quite sure that
• 44:09
  they needed to have the kind of they put the dregs in it, don't
• 44:12
  they, From or from 55. I'm not quite sure that they
• 44:15
  needed that. They could have.
• 44:18
  I mean, I'm not a TV producer or a director, but I would have, I
• 44:21
  would have had Ryan's nightmare of him finding his friend in his
• 44:26
  flat, old and still there, you know, on his own.
• 44:30
  That's how maybe I would have done it.
• 44:32
  I think I would have been braver and gone further because we've
• 44:35
  done the suicide in Doctor Who before we we did Vincent and the
• 44:39
  Doctor, we did Adelaide in the waters of Mars, so I would have
• 44:42
  implied it rather than showed it.
• 44:46
  This is the killer, though. Him being worked on by grace say
• 44:52
  the cancer's back. And you know, I've, I've never
• 44:59
  been through this, so I can't speak for anybody who is going
• 45:06
  through this. Well, I can only imagine the
• 45:11
  kind of fear that people would go through was being diagnosed
• 45:16
  with cancer. I mean, I lost my mother to
• 45:19
  cancer about four years ago. And it was, it was very much
• 45:23
  this of we're going to fight this, we're going to fight this.
• 45:26
  No, the fight's over. So these fears are compelling,
• 45:31
  you know? Yeah.
• 45:33
  And just to have grace there doing it, as you know, that's
• 45:36
  just twisted and cold as well, you know, she's not, you know,
• 45:39
  there's nothing warm about her there.
• 45:42
  It's, you know, she's it's the person that he loves telling him
• 45:48
  this. And Sharon Park is in five
• 45:52
  episodes and I don't think she puts a foot wrong.
• 45:54
  You know she doesn't. In fact, to the point where when
• 45:58
  she was in when we first saw The Woman Who Fell to Earth, sorry,
• 46:04
  we I almost forgot that she wasn't going to be part of the
• 46:09
  the regular. She does.
• 46:12
  She does it. She really does.
• 46:16
  Yeah. But yeah, it's a shame that, I
• 46:19
  mean, it would have been way too many people in the Targets then,
• 46:21
  but. I don't know why I booted out
• 46:24
  Ryan, you know, and had Grace instead.
• 46:26
  That would have been interesting.
• 46:27
  Husband and wife on board the. Yeah, amazing.
• 46:29
  We've done it before, yeah. Yeah, of course we have.
• 46:31
  Yeah. People said, you know, I was so
• 46:33
  predictable because she went off with that cable going, you know,
• 46:36
  is it wrong that I'm enjoying this?
• 46:38
  But that's exactly the line that Amy said to the doctor in Asylum
• 46:41
  of the Daleks. You know she was going to die on
• 46:43
  that. Zillion.
• 46:47
  Oh, chibbers are such a space name.
• 46:50
  Yeah, at the front, Yeah, if there is.
• 46:54
  If there is one thing I will say about Chibbers, I don't like his
• 46:59
  space names. There's a hell of a lot of them
• 47:02
  in essentially the Cybermen. Yed Lami and I can't remember
• 47:08
  the rest of them. Yed Lami is the one that always
• 47:11
  sticks out, but. On the keyboard and whatever
• 47:14
  came up on Microsoft Word is like yeah, that's the one it's
• 47:19
  it reminds me of you kind of yet you some of the space names that
• 47:24
  you would get in the virgin new adventures names that you just
• 47:30
  they're just not easy to whereas Russell is got you know Linda
• 47:34
  and you know just natural sounding names.
• 47:39
  Well, just like, I don't know, like Linda with a Y as a person
• 47:42
  from the future, I said then You just never forget what you get.
• 47:45
  You never forget Linda A. Rendus way.
• 47:49
  He's a bad man. But with these sort of these
• 47:56
  gods that we're we're fighting against in this.
• 48:00
  Yeah, I really like how they're established.
• 48:03
  So they're turning up in the bedrooms and her in Graham's
• 48:06
  head. I really like.
• 48:09
  How their back story is presented in a minute, something
• 48:13
  completely new. The animation and I really love
• 48:16
  the sequences where they're walking down the streets and
• 48:19
  they're about to take. The only thing that it ruins it
• 48:22
  for me is that's just so easily defeated.
• 48:25
  Yes, yes, it's. Really annoying.
• 48:28
  It's so quick and it's so easy and it's like, let's just Chuck
• 48:33
  them away quickly, you know, so we can move on to to the kind of
• 48:37
  character bits instead, that's. Exactly what's happening, isn't
• 48:40
  it? Yeah, hurry in that plot so they
• 48:43
  can get to the meat of the episode.
• 48:45
  Yeah. And that's where it fails
• 48:47
  sometimes. And it's not the only story
• 48:49
  that's guilty of doing that across the entire run of Doctor
• 48:54
  Who, but it's such a shame because.
• 48:57
  In the new series they rush a lot of they do yeah it just it
• 49:01
  just kind of cheapens it because I would have, I would have liked
• 49:05
  to have seen more of of the of these two characters.
• 49:09
  I think somebody even mentioned on the Twitter comments which we
• 49:12
  get to later that somebody mentioned that you know this
• 49:14
  kind of could this have been swarming as your from flux you
• 49:19
  know or could these have become swarming as your as a recurring
• 49:23
  character that kind of moved into into flux, you know, so
• 49:28
  it's a shame that we don't get to see any more of them.
• 49:31
  I mean, I know it might have felt a little anticlimactic, but
• 49:34
  I would have liked them to have gotten free and then just got on
• 49:37
  the way. And then there was a promise
• 49:39
  that we were going to see them again.
• 49:40
  Yeah, and then we did the character stuff, cuz it's just
• 49:43
  cheapen them. Yeah, just a line, just a line
• 49:46
  with Jody. It's called Jody the Doctor
• 49:49
  saying they're out there somewhere.
• 49:51
  Every time they defeat these gods, the Eternals and
• 49:53
  Enlightenment, or the Black Guardian in the Armageddon
• 49:56
  facts, you're like, well, they weren't all that, were they?
• 50:00
  That's all it took, Linda Baron. Just get thrown overboard or
• 50:04
  something, yeah, yeah. Oh, there she comes.
• 50:13
  And that's the idea of the prison as well.
• 50:15
  That's a that's a huge concept of two planets with her trap
• 50:19
  there in the middle. It's all good stuff.
• 50:24
  It is. And I think, I think as well
• 50:28
  it's it's a sort of story that you kind of, I've said about
• 50:31
  this before. Usually when you watch an
• 50:33
  episode for the first time it's you're so like you're so on edge
• 50:38
  because you want it to be the best thing ever And you you you
• 50:41
  don't always take in what you're watching.
• 50:43
  And so I think probably the first time I watched this, I
• 50:46
  didn't quite get the whole the the plot line of what was going
• 50:50
  on here. But the more you watch it, the
• 50:52
  more you allowed to sink in, the more it makes sense, you know?
• 50:56
  Whether or not that filters through to the general public, I
• 51:01
  don't know, but this scene is. I mean that we could do it a
• 51:08
  little more of this sort of visual.
• 51:11
  It's so good. I remember they did something
• 51:15
  similar in. Was it the first Black Panther
• 51:19
  film or am I misremembering? Was that like an animated
• 51:23
  sequence? Did it with Shadow Puppets and
• 51:28
  series seven. It was really good there as
• 51:31
  well. It works, it's nice.
• 51:32
  I mean, I wouldn't want it all the time, but it just it it's so
• 51:37
  stylized. It's so it's something so
• 51:39
  different. The thing is, is with and I've
• 51:42
  had this argument with Fraser Gregory too many times, is with.
• 51:46
  Chip Chipnall Exposition. This is my greatest failing of
• 51:49
  Chipnall for me. Is that the I can't even say it
• 51:53
  now, how did you say exposition? Exposition is so clunky,
• 51:57
  sometimes people just turn up, it's like an essential sum.
• 52:00
  They turn up, say who they are, what they used to do, what
• 52:03
  they're doing there. And you know and it's just a lot
• 52:06
  to be to have to be delivered in one sort of lump when they do
• 52:09
  something like this, which is. So it's such a creative way of
• 52:13
  filling in all the blanks very quickly.
• 52:16
  Or like in I remember in Dear Darcy, when they have the dance
• 52:19
  scene and everyone's gossiping about everyone else and it just
• 52:23
  feels such a natural way to explain who everybody is and
• 52:26
  what their relationships are. Yeah, it's it's much more
• 52:30
  interesting than just being told, isn't it?
• 52:33
  And that that animated sequence, it gets it across straight away.
• 52:36
  You, you, you, you know, you, you get everything from that.
• 52:39
  You don't need, you don't need anything else.
• 52:42
  So they could get us in a lot of the techno bubble.
• 52:45
  I just have that, you know? But.
• 52:48
  Don't they make a visually interesting couple as well?
• 52:53
  I like the idea of him being, you know, he's kind of feeding
• 52:59
  her these nightmares. You know, she's the one who's,
• 53:02
  you know, she's feeding off these nightmares and he's
• 53:04
  providing them for her like that.
• 53:07
  Yeah, look at this with her going down the sort of dark
• 53:10
  fooky St. It reminds me a bit of the
• 53:12
  nightmare man from Sarah Janoventures.
• 53:14
  Remember when he was on the street sucking in everyone's
• 53:17
  nightmare? What I find scary about these
• 53:19
  two is they kind of say it's not people's fears that we're after
• 53:23
  is we want. It is literally people's failing
• 53:28
  mental health that they're attacking.
• 53:31
  That's really scary. It is.
• 53:33
  Because I'll tell you what time where there's a lot of mental
• 53:36
  health that's going down the train.
• 53:38
  Yeah, and this was shown during lockdown, wasn't it?
• 53:43
  When the during the pandemic, this, this, this whole series?
• 53:47
  Yeah, they also did practice, which was about, you know, a
• 53:50
  pandemic, a virus sweeping across.
• 53:55
  I sure knew what to pick for topics in that season.
• 54:00
  They did. Oh, the Timeless Child in the
• 54:05
  time, In the time before we really knew what it was as well.
• 54:09
  And it's probably the wrong episode to discuss it.
• 54:12
  But I I never had an issue with the Timeless Child arc.
• 54:15
  I really didn't. I think actually, as we're going
• 54:18
  along, a lot of people saying it was a nice shot of innovation.
• 54:22
  There's always going to be hardcore people that don't like
• 54:24
  it. And fair enough.
• 54:26
  If you don't like the the history of the the show
• 54:28
  rewritten for a modern audience, fair enough.
• 54:34
  But in a time when so much had been explained, it was suddenly
• 54:38
  an element of mystery again. Yeah, it was.
• 54:43
  I felt it opened the door. It blew the doors wide open and
• 54:47
  just injected something different into it, whether or
• 54:51
  not we will ever revisit it again.
• 54:55
  I think Russell T is contrary enough to bring it up, I think
• 55:00
  if he's going to celebrate everything in those 60th
• 55:03
  anniversary specials. He will celebrate everything.
• 55:06
  He certainly won't exclude the first female Doctor.
• 55:08
  No no, no cuz he you know he's. Good dog.
• 55:18
  How does she make that Sonic zip out of her pocket like that?
• 55:21
  I don't know. I don't know.
• 55:23
  It's a bit like a. It's a bit like a lightsaber
• 55:26
  moment, isn't it? Just lies into her hand.
• 55:29
  I don't know. I mean how does the Doctor make
• 55:31
  a a bunch of flowers appear from out of thin air You know in The
• 55:36
  Three Doctors you know it's it's just.
• 55:38
  The magic trick? Yeah.
• 55:41
  When he makes that tape reel disappear in The Ambassadors of
• 55:47
  Death, that's magic. Yeah, it's just the way it is.
• 55:50
  It's daft. It's silly.
• 55:53
  Doesn't always have to have a reason to it.
• 55:58
  Yes. Thank you, Doctor.
• 55:59
  You created the Chakaska from your nightmares.
• 56:02
  We had figured that out. Sometimes I forget that this is
• 56:07
  aimed at younger children. Some need a little bit of things
• 56:10
  explained to them. It's interesting because do you
• 56:13
  think at this stage a lot of children were watching it?
• 56:18
  I mean, we obviously know this there was a whole new generation
• 56:22
  of fans that were born out of the, you know, the the tenant
• 56:26
  stuff really Do you think there's A and that's that's not
• 56:32
  to kind of, you know be be a downer on on the Chipnall era,
• 56:35
  but do we think there's a new generation that were born
• 56:39
  through the Chipnall era? I think it was enough because
• 56:42
  there were 5 to 6 million people watching series 12 sort of the
• 56:46
  final figures, but it's somewhere 5 to 6 million and I
• 56:49
  know for Rusty Davis won a record saying.
• 56:52
  Is only like a couple of 100,000 that are the hardcore thoughts
• 56:57
  who fans? So those other 5 million, I've
• 57:01
  got to be someone, you know? Yeah.
• 57:03
  They have to be, yeah. Who knows?
• 57:06
  Well, you know, without the breakdown, we'll never know.
• 57:08
  We'll never know. I mean, my, my, the 1st doctor
• 57:12
  that my son ever saw was Jody. So it was, I think he was six
• 57:16
  months old at the time and just plonked him in front of the TV
• 57:20
  and said they go watch the woman who fell to work on
• 57:22
  broadcasting. Anyone who says that the
• 57:24
  children who can't do scares like Moffett needs to watch this
• 57:27
  scene in this kids bedroom. And he's almost out Moffett in
• 57:31
  Moffett, because he loves doing stuff with kids, doesn't he?
• 57:33
  Like that, that thing on the bed with the sheet over it?
• 57:36
  Yeah. And you don't get to see the
• 57:40
  results of this, you know, there's no sudden, you know, the
• 57:42
  kid doesn't run out the room and escape.
• 57:44
  The Doctor doesn't appear to save the child.
• 57:47
  That's all you get the fingers flying at the.
• 57:49
  Train a lot To have a kid terrified in bed and terrifying
• 57:53
  Ian Gilda coming at you. That's not true.
• 58:03
  I used to be scared like that in the dark, you know?
• 58:06
  Seriously, my my dad used to turn the light out, and I used
• 58:09
  to beg him not to. So, yeah, So the thought of
• 58:13
  this, it's the same with me. I'm not, I wouldn't say I wasn't
• 58:17
  terrified of the dark, but I do, You know, the other night I was,
• 58:21
  the dog sleeps up here on the bed, on the end of the bed.
• 58:23
  And I woke up at 2:00 in the morning.
• 58:25
  The dog sat at the end of the bed just staring at the wall.
• 58:28
  I was like, OK. I've got.
• 58:32
  I've got a lovely warm Doctor Who found in bed next to me now.
• 58:34
  So I'm all right. No, actually, I'm not.
• 58:36
  The other day we had a Creek downstairs and he went, oh, you
• 58:39
  go downstairs and see what I oh. He's twice as firm as I.
• 58:44
  How about that? Oh, I do like this though.
• 58:48
  They live with their fears, doubts, guilt.
• 58:50
  Now some might say this is a bit on the nose.
• 58:52
  It's a good statement to make but we are magnificent because
• 58:55
  we do have mental health problems and we still get for
• 58:58
  each day. She's kind of almost looking
• 59:03
  straight at the camera there telling us and and yeah so yeah
• 59:12
  I just think it's a bit weak. I mean you know, he's, you know,
• 59:15
  how do you control, how did you control them And it's it's kind
• 59:19
  of like, I know we're kind of meant to be showing them how
• 59:25
  strong people can be, but just the fact that they're defeated
• 59:29
  so easily, it's just so it's disappointing.
• 59:35
  But like I said, like ultimately, this isn't what the
• 59:38
  episode's about, is it? It's about the regulars and what
• 59:42
  they what they're going through, yeah.
• 59:45
  But yeah, I could understand if people were very unsatisfied
• 59:47
  with this, because I was. Yeah, it's so sudden that you've
• 59:53
  not actually finished processing what's happened.
• 59:58
  You know when once the next scene comes up.
• 1:00:00
  I think you had a comment on Twitter about that shot of the
• 1:00:03
  two of them inside the ball, and whoever made that comment,
• 1:00:07
  You're right, it's a terrible, terrible shot.
• 1:00:12
  It sort of weakens them even more, but this is what's
• 1:00:17
  important. And he still Ryan is still there
• 1:00:22
  for him. He still stayed the night for
• 1:00:24
  him and like you said, this gives him the impetus.
• 1:00:27
  Yet there are people that need me and I'm not having these
• 1:00:30
  jollies. And do you think that's such a
• 1:00:33
  responsible thing for a young man to do, to say they give up
• 1:00:38
  all the time in space because they need me?
• 1:00:40
  To actually make that choice as well to leave, which we don't
• 1:00:45
  often get in knew who we get. Martha, do it.
• 1:00:49
  But. Most of the time people are
• 1:00:52
  forced to leave the doctor rather than the make that choice
• 1:00:57
  to go. It's the mature choice.
• 1:00:59
  It's the boring choice. Yeah, Brian, you are boring to
• 1:01:02
  the end. Well done.
• 1:01:05
  But you were still pretty. If we see that fellow in Spyful,
• 1:01:11
  is he the way to play basketball with?
• 1:01:13
  Yeah, it's nicely set up. Yeah, it's a shame we don't kind
• 1:01:16
  of get to visit him again, but then I suppose.
• 1:01:20
  You know, life goes on and people's lives go on even when
• 1:01:23
  you're not not around them. I suppose it's a hell of a lot
• 1:01:26
  going on in the flux, you know, we can't have any more elements.
• 1:01:32
  And I love this, is that this sort of group therapist where he
• 1:01:36
  talks about sort of going out to the shop just to have some human
• 1:01:40
  interaction, Just that I've done that, you know?
• 1:01:44
  And I considered it a win when I got out of my house and went to
• 1:01:48
  a supermarket and just engaged with the cashier.
• 1:01:51
  Yeah, and it's the guy who says to it it's not just you, it's
• 1:01:56
  not just you. And that sometimes what you
• 1:01:59
  need, you need somebody to say, you know, on your own there, you
• 1:02:03
  know, yeah, it's really great stuff.
• 1:02:08
  And then the look on his face. Yeah, it's not just me.
• 1:02:13
  And then, yes, here, like, even the way she's positioned in this
• 1:02:18
  scene on the sofa with the blanket around her, it kind of
• 1:02:21
  leads me to say, you know, you're still vulnerable.
• 1:02:30
  And what I like about this, this scene here, the police officer
• 1:02:36
  is when she's dreaming. You've had this amazing
• 1:02:24
  experience. But you could.
• 1:02:26
  Yeah, still. I think she could still have
• 1:02:28
  Dark. She's kind of she's set up to be
• 1:02:40
  this kind of ominous figure on the road.
• 1:02:43
  And you know it's leading you to think well what has actually
• 1:02:49
  gone on here. But the actual fact, you know
• 1:02:51
  the ominous figure in the road is the one that that's there and
• 1:02:56
  gives you that drive to to continue.
• 1:02:59
  I like that turns it on. I think they have to say you
• 1:03:03
  know they're scared your suicidal as well.
• 1:03:04
  I think you can imply enough from the dialogue.
• 1:03:08
  Yeah, and she's so warm, the police officers suddenly.
• 1:03:14
  I like her line when she says about getting a new job and she
• 1:03:18
  she says about the paving not very good and she says get
• 1:03:22
  another job and she says I can't, I love it too much.
• 1:03:24
  And it's like, yeah, sometimes this sort of naturalistic
• 1:03:28
  dialogue really hits, doesn't it?
• 1:03:30
  Does, Yeah. I don't think it's as memorable
• 1:03:33
  as the sort of witty quips that you had every 5 minutes in the
• 1:03:36
  Moffett era. No, sometimes it really hits
• 1:03:39
  home. It's what surrounds it that
• 1:03:43
  makes it, I believe, and the intention behind it.
• 1:03:47
  But it's like, you know what? You can have all that noise and
• 1:03:50
  nonsense in their Moffett era, but you can have a moment where
• 1:03:53
  two people just sit down and talk like.
• 1:03:55
  This. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:58
  And it's as engaging as attention grabbing.
• 1:04:01
  I can't imagine it, if ever. Like this in the mock era.
• 1:04:07
  You know I can't. It never slowed down enough.
• 1:04:09
  No, I can't remember a scene where anybody really sits down
• 1:04:14
  and and just relaxes and talks. I think there's there's one
• 1:04:19
  example, but it's a Chignel script and it's the power of
• 1:04:21
  free where the doctor in front of that.
• 1:04:24
  But even that's a bit overblown, you know?
• 1:04:28
  Yeah, it's beautiful. But it is, Yeah, items.
• 1:04:32
  Yeah, And sometimes, I don't know, sometimes it just takes
• 1:04:37
  one person to make a difference like this.
• 1:04:40
  It does. Sometimes it's, you know, it's
• 1:04:45
  what you need or you know, an event I think to cut forward to
• 1:04:50
  her, then going with the 50P and giving it to her and her saying
• 1:04:54
  God, of course I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:57
  I think I tiered put that bit as well yesterday.
• 1:05:00
  She's in like 2 scenes, I think two or three scenes.
• 1:05:03
  That character I would not forget.
• 1:05:05
  You know, there's many a secondary character in a new
• 1:05:09
  whose story that I'll never remember.
• 1:05:14
  And it's it's yes is kind of. She steps back from that door,
• 1:05:18
  as it said. Should I really be here?
• 1:05:20
  Should I really be doing this and to be asked to reward her
• 1:05:23
  kindness? I really like that.
• 1:05:26
  But you were there for me. Yeah.
• 1:05:28
  And another fact, she goes, can you, do you want to come in?
• 1:05:31
  She's like, Oh yeah, And then that's enough, you know?
• 1:05:33
  Yeah, you. Don't need to see anymore.
• 1:05:36
  Oh man, it kills. Smile.
• 1:05:40
  Gosh, she's gorgeous. You know, she all saw her the
• 1:05:42
  other week at Comic Con. She gave me the biggest hug and
• 1:05:45
  the biggest. She is beautiful.
• 1:05:49
  I'm telling you, Jim, the people think the things people say
• 1:05:52
  about these people not being popular, these characters, she
• 1:05:56
  had the longest cue by 10 times. I can imagine I've never seen
• 1:06:02
  such a such a kind of explosion as there was for the love for
• 1:06:07
  Jody. I've never seen that in in in
• 1:06:10
  for any of the other doctors you know you got the popular popular
• 1:06:14
  doctor with tenant, but I've never seen such an outpouring of
• 1:06:17
  love sections of banned them. Here we go.
• 1:06:23
  OK, this is the scene. Do we talk about this later or
• 1:06:30
  do we talk about this? There's a lot of people that got
• 1:06:32
  a lot of things to say about this scene later.
• 1:06:34
  Yeah. How do you think it's played?
• 1:06:40
  It's a hard one because I've ever since I saw the scene, I've
• 1:06:43
  been kind of dancing on the fence about how I feel about it
• 1:06:48
  and I think. I will always dance on the fence
• 1:06:51
  about how I feel about it because I think it is absolutely
• 1:06:55
  right to show that some people don't do not know how to react.
• 1:07:03
  They do not know what to say and.
• 1:07:07
  I think it's absolutely right to show that because people.
• 1:07:10
  There are people like that. There are people like that.
• 1:07:12
  I'm like it. I I may have mentioned before,
• 1:07:14
  you know when we, when we recorded Utopia, the commentary
• 1:07:17
  for Utopia, when we originally talked about this, that I had a
• 1:07:21
  friend who told me the other year that she had cancer and I
• 1:07:26
  didn't know how to react to that.
• 1:07:29
  I didn't know and all I could, you know, say was.
• 1:07:35
  You know, I'll. I'll be there for you if you
• 1:07:37
  need me. I didn't know what to say other
• 1:07:41
  than that. And I am a socially awkward
• 1:07:45
  person. I I overthink things.
• 1:07:49
  I, you know, I and I was saying to you off mic earlier on about
• 1:07:53
  being stuck at a party. You know, I didn't know what to
• 1:07:56
  do. I didn't know how to react.
• 1:07:58
  You know, I just want to shrink away.
• 1:08:00
  So I I know that kind of that kind of.
• 1:08:04
  Thing of you don't know what to do.
• 1:08:05
  You don't, you really don't know what to do in that situation,
• 1:08:08
  how to speak to somebody. I can also see the argument of
• 1:08:14
  people who say that the doctor should know what to say and that
• 1:08:20
  the doctor should be able to comfort somebody when they need
• 1:08:25
  that. But then on the flip side of
• 1:08:27
  that, is Graham wanting that from the doctor?
• 1:08:31
  Is is Graham just wanting to? To talk Is he really wanting the
• 1:08:35
  Doctor to give him a big speech about how you know everything's
• 1:08:39
  going to be okay? You know, there's so many
• 1:08:41
  different variables. You know you can't.
• 1:08:47
  It's hard because, you know, do we want the Doctor to be a
• 1:08:49
  superhero who know who has all the answers?
• 1:08:51
  Or do we want the Doctor to be like us, who doesn't have all
• 1:08:55
  the answers? This.
• 1:08:56
  That's my take on it. This is exactly the same person,
• 1:09:00
  yeah, who is celebrated in Pyramids of Mars for saying to
• 1:09:04
  Sarah Jane. Well, I told him not to be.
• 1:09:07
  I told him not to go after his brother.
• 1:09:09
  It's his own place. He's dead.
• 1:09:11
  And she goes. Sometimes.
• 1:09:12
  You don't seem human. No, I'm not.
• 1:09:16
  Different morality, like the Doctor can be a callous boss.
• 1:09:20
  She's not callous. There, She listens.
• 1:09:23
  She acknowledges she doesn't know the right things to say,
• 1:09:27
  and she goes, look, I'm gonna try and be better.
• 1:09:29
  I'm gonna go over here and I'm gonna try and be better.
• 1:09:32
  Yeah, she she acknowledges. She acknowledges that she should
• 1:09:37
  probably say something. She just doesn't know what to
• 1:09:41
  say at that point. And Graham, by the look of it,
• 1:09:44
  also understands that as well, which is why he goes away.
• 1:09:48
  You know, just listening is enough.
• 1:09:52
  Exactly. Yeah.
• 1:09:53
  And and I will always dance on the fence over it because, you
• 1:09:57
  know, you just, it's what it is. You know, it's I I really love
• 1:10:04
  the speech the doctor makes in Vincent and the Doctor when he
• 1:10:06
  says there's a part of good stuff and there's a part of bad
• 1:10:09
  stuff in life and you know, trying to make sure that the
• 1:10:12
  good stuff is bigger than the bad stuff.
• 1:10:14
  I really think that's a beautiful speech, but it rather
• 1:10:19
  takes the edge of the nastiness of like, mental health issues
• 1:10:25
  that the episode. It makes it a little more easier
• 1:10:28
  to digest and maybe actually just keeping it a bit cold and a
• 1:10:32
  bit awkward and uncomfortable because that's what it is.
• 1:10:36
  That's what it is. You tell your friends.
• 1:10:39
  I told my friends that I had mental health issues.
• 1:10:42
  Yeah, I told them I was really struggling.
• 1:10:44
  Some of them stopped talking to me because I was always the life
• 1:10:47
  and soul of the party. They just didn't know how to
• 1:10:49
  handle me as somebody who was completely lost.
• 1:10:52
  And that's why I was ever so grateful to that one friend who
• 1:10:56
  totally normalized it and said, let's go out for a coffee.
• 1:10:59
  You don't have to talk or you can talk about whatever you
• 1:11:02
  want, but let's just go out and have a drink, you know?
• 1:11:06
  Yeah. And and you know and I've often
• 1:11:08
  said to you know to to my close friends, you know if there's
• 1:11:11
  ever anything wrong with me, just talk to me act act normal
• 1:11:16
  around me. I don't want you know it's scary
• 1:11:20
  enough without having people trying to.
• 1:11:26
  I don't, I don't want it to come across wrong because it's you
• 1:11:28
  know again it's it's just my it's my opinion that you know
• 1:11:32
  you kind of need to just try and.
• 1:11:35
  Get by as best you can. Sometimes I think and and not
• 1:11:39
  only that but how many people identified with with the doctor
• 1:11:44
  in that moment. You know for as many people who
• 1:11:46
  said, who said this is not how the doctor should be, there was
• 1:11:51
  that section of people who also said Oh my word, this is how I
• 1:11:55
  am. The Doctor is the same as me.
• 1:11:58
  You know, and why should we exclude, and why should we
• 1:12:01
  exclude any of those people? You know, just because we think
• 1:12:04
  that the doctor should be a certain way, like like those
• 1:12:08
  people that really dismiss the error, I do just wonder
• 1:12:10
  sometimes if the people that don't like it are louder than
• 1:12:13
  the people that do, which is why they get heard more.
• 1:12:17
  But I will say as well, I think both readings are perfectly
• 1:12:21
  valid. I think the second you start
• 1:12:23
  saying that's not a valid, the point you're making, my point
• 1:12:28
  about is that's that's when the debate ends, you know, and there
• 1:12:33
  is no discussion, there's just opinion.
• 1:12:35
  And it turns into, it turns into the, you know, what the sort of
• 1:12:39
  thing that we've witnessed on on Twitter tonight, you know, of of
• 1:12:43
  people just, you know, people just shouting.
• 1:12:47
  Well, not people shouting, but certain people shouting.
• 1:12:50
  You know, about about things. Well, this as the haunting of
• 1:12:54
  Villa Diadati has started on the iPlayer and what marvelous
• 1:12:58
  episode that is. Shall we engage with some people
• 1:13:03
  on Twitter then and see what they have to say?
• 1:13:05
  I think we shall. How brave are you feeling?
• 1:13:10
  Well, let's see, shall we? Because I'm gonna have to see if
• 1:13:15
  we can navigate it all anyway, so.
• 1:13:17
  Let's have a look. As you're looking at that, I'll
• 1:13:20
  just comment that the period dress that all the regulars are
• 1:13:23
  wearing in Dear Darcy is very beautiful.
• 1:13:26
  Sadly, as I'm only watching the Blu-ray, I've gone straight to
• 1:13:31
  the scene selection scene and I've just got a static image of
• 1:13:34
  Ryan looking at me. Well, I mean as well.
• 1:13:39
  You know how we did Utopia as our first one.
• 1:13:42
  This is the utopia of series 12, isn't it?
• 1:13:45
  It's the sort of single episode that leads into the two-part
• 1:13:48
  finale. It is.
• 1:13:51
  It is, yeah. But anyway, we're not here to
• 1:13:53
  talk about it, I'll say. No, that's guy with the
• 1:13:56
  comments. OK, so we're gonna get, I'm
• 1:13:59
  gonna try and navigate this as best as I can because each tweet
• 1:14:02
  opens up another thread. So we've got.
• 1:14:05
  So we'll go with the first question that we've got on here,
• 1:14:08
  which is from Fraser, Fraser, Gregory.
• 1:14:12
  And which tells us how many questions do you think you'd
• 1:14:14
  have you'd have if Elon hadn't broken Twitter, I think.
• 1:14:20
  Don't worry, Fraser, I think the restriction on views is now over
• 1:14:23
  only last for the day. I was going to say a fair few
• 1:14:27
  less than what we actually did get.
• 1:14:31
  OK, so we've got Tom Newson. Do you think Yaz's and Graham's
• 1:14:36
  backstories are the most real companions have been?
• 1:14:41
  Yeah, it might not be showy, but it's authentic.
• 1:14:45
  Yeah, I think, I think we did. We had a we had a little bit
• 1:14:51
  with with Rose, I think with her, with her father.
• 1:14:55
  But I think we kind of jettisoned a lot of a lot of
• 1:14:58
  back stories of companions. But we didn't jettison it.
• 1:15:02
  But it didn't feel as real, I don't think.
• 1:15:04
  I think I enjoyed this stuff with Rose.
• 1:15:07
  Back back in series one with her father dying.
• 1:15:11
  That felt very real and something that people you know
• 1:15:14
  could relate to. But I do think that this the and
• 1:15:18
  you know Yaz and Graham is, yeah, I think.
• 1:15:21
  I think that people genuinely people don't generally strive
• 1:15:25
  universes or you know reunite their dead fathers with their
• 1:15:29
  mothers or have their memories wives or become puddles.
• 1:15:34
  No in lesbian relationships or go flying off in diners or any
• 1:15:38
  of this stuff. Yeah.
• 1:15:39
  People do genuinely have depressive moments and deal with
• 1:15:41
  cancer. So definitely told me
• 1:15:43
  definitely. And then we've got Rod Who,
• 1:15:49
  while staying enjoying this. Who's Rod?
• 1:15:52
  He's Rod. Rod.
• 1:15:57
  Rod. Good old Rod.
• 1:16:01
  He's he says. Whilst I really enjoy the story,
• 1:16:05
  is there just too much going on to focus on the core themes?
• 1:16:08
  What if we only had What if only one of the fam had their dreams
• 1:16:11
  invaded? Would this have allowed us time
• 1:16:13
  to explore things in more depth and therefore ultimately make
• 1:16:16
  this more successful? Oh, interesting, because I think
• 1:16:19
  that's the part of this that works really well and it's the
• 1:16:22
  rest of the story that suffers. I think so, I think.
• 1:16:27
  You know as we we were talking earlier in the episode about you
• 1:16:31
  know ditching the Aleppo stuff with Sahira and it would have
• 1:16:36
  been better to focus more on on the three and but I don't think
• 1:16:44
  we're shortchanged in no regulars and what we're.
• 1:16:48
  No, I don't think so. Everybody, everybody gets there.
• 1:16:52
  Everybody gets there. Run gets their time to shine.
• 1:16:55
  I think to shine. Maybe not the right word, but
• 1:17:00
  yeah, I think, yeah, I think I wouldn't change it.
• 1:17:04
  I wouldn't change it to focus on just one.
• 1:17:10
  Right, Okay. So this one possibly opens us
• 1:17:16
  up. To the All opinions are welcome
• 1:17:21
  here. Okay.
• 1:17:22
  So we got it's Fraser who triggered it.
• 1:17:26
  I don't, I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's the the
• 1:17:34
  the full extent of what we got later on so there might be
• 1:17:36
  something further down so we got, Fraser said.
• 1:17:39
  Would it. Would people be as bothered
• 1:17:40
  about the final scene of it where one of the male doctors
• 1:17:44
  who responded to Graham in that way?
• 1:17:47
  Well, someone actually did say that later down through it.
• 1:17:50
  Yeah, so there is more to come from that.
• 1:17:53
  We we have, we have some gentleman called James Broff.
• 1:17:58
  I pronounced that right. He said no.
• 1:18:00
  I really don't think they would. Compare that scene with 12
• 1:18:03
  needing prompt cards to remind him to sound concerned about
• 1:18:06
  other people. 12 is such a callous bastard.
• 1:18:10
  He says it into the Dalek. Look, you want to have a chat
• 1:18:13
  with your mate who's just died. He's that top layer is every
• 1:18:17
  that's more heartless than this. Oh, absolutely.
• 1:18:20
  I was talking. I was talking to somebody the
• 1:18:25
  other day about the way he just abandons Clara.
• 1:18:27
  It didn't kill the moon, you know.
• 1:18:29
  You know, at that point, I don't know what we're talking about.
• 1:18:33
  Can you hear me? But at that point, watching 12,
• 1:18:35
  I was like, as much as I enjoy serious, I was like, do I like
• 1:18:39
  this, this Doctor? Yeah.
• 1:18:43
  It does challenge you. Yeah.
• 1:18:46
  I think where it probably stands out a little bit more with Jody
• 1:18:48
  is because she usually comes across as across as quite quite
• 1:18:53
  kind. But again, as we've discussed
• 1:18:56
  already, I don't think she's been callous.
• 1:18:59
  I don't think there's anything, any part of that comes across as
• 1:19:02
  being callous at all. I think they are starting to
• 1:19:05
  give her a bit more sort of challenging characterization.
• 1:19:07
  I love the bit. I mean, I'm coming out about
• 1:19:09
  dear Dalcy again, where she goes.
• 1:19:10
  Do you know what? Sometimes this flat team
• 1:19:13
  structure isn't so flat after all, you know.
• 1:19:16
  Yeah, yeah, Okay. And then we do have okay.
• 1:19:26
  So do we. Wow.
• 1:19:27
  This is like proper opening up. This is.
• 1:19:31
  So this is, this is John the White who he said sadly.
• 1:19:37
  He's been living with terminal cancer for over six months.
• 1:19:40
  Not once. You.
• 1:19:41
  Not once. Human beings told me they're too
• 1:19:43
  socially awkward to be able to talk about it.
• 1:19:45
  The Doctor never acted that way. Most people don't act that way,
• 1:19:48
  and it was a bad idea for 13 to act that way.
• 1:19:52
  Don't challenge his experiences, but I do challenge his opinion
• 1:19:56
  that most people don't act that way.
• 1:19:58
  Because I'm telling you, nobody could face the fact that my
• 1:20:02
  mother was dying of terminal cancer and they couldn't have
• 1:20:05
  that conversation with her. And that's not a fault of this.
• 1:20:09
  It's just they did not have the the language and the emotional
• 1:20:13
  capacity to have those conversations.
• 1:20:16
  What this is really interesting. I want to talk about John the
• 1:20:20
  White and the conversation we ended up having.
• 1:20:22
  What happened was he got very angry that I wouldn't
• 1:20:26
  acknowledge his opinion. And ultimately I just started
• 1:20:31
  throwing affection at him because I thought, he's trying
• 1:20:35
  to really roll me up to the point where he, like, made a
• 1:20:39
  comparison between me and a rapist.
• 1:20:43
  So to a point where I wasn't reacting to very strong
• 1:20:47
  statements that he was making, I just kept saying all the best
• 1:20:50
  love and hugs, you know. And then eventually he blocked
• 1:20:55
  me because he couldn't make me angry.
• 1:20:58
  And there is this element of fandom on Twitter that hases era
• 1:21:03
  so much and they desperately want to fight with people about
• 1:21:05
  it. And the best way to react to
• 1:21:08
  these people is just to to fight back with kindness.
• 1:21:11
  You have to. You have to.
• 1:21:12
  Generally speaking, they just go away.
• 1:21:14
  As example I budge on the white. Yeah, and you can't because you
• 1:21:18
  know he. And he he does go, he, he does,
• 1:21:22
  you know, add more to it, you know, I don't know.
• 1:21:25
  Shall we go through the the rest of the things?
• 1:21:27
  He says. I mean, I think that's very
• 1:21:32
  heated that discussion. Yeah it is.
• 1:21:34
  It's A1 sided heated discussion unfortunately.
• 1:21:37
  What I will say is I think he makes a valid point that his
• 1:21:42
  reading is valid or him. Yeah, he couldn't accept that my
• 1:21:48
  reading was valid for me, and that is a problem when you're
• 1:21:52
  having a discussion. Yeah, it is a problem.
• 1:21:55
  The thing is, we're all different.
• 1:21:57
  Every single one of us in in this universe, on this planet is
• 1:22:02
  is a different person. And we are all different in so
• 1:22:06
  many ways. We all have to respect each
• 1:22:10
  other. We have to respect what each of
• 1:22:13
  us feel and think. And not attack each other
• 1:22:17
  because of it. You know it's not.
• 1:22:21
  I don't understand how people cannot understand that.
• 1:22:25
  How people cannot be okay with other people having different
• 1:22:29
  opinions. You know, if we were all the
• 1:22:32
  same, how boring would life be? Well, podcasts be the same for a
• 1:22:36
  style. Everyone would be saying the
• 1:22:37
  same thing. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:22:40
  I spent most of the last couple of weeks challenging my opinion
• 1:22:43
  on the Stephen Muffett era, with a load of people coming on and
• 1:22:47
  telling me how amazing it is and actually making me question my
• 1:22:51
  opinion on a lot of that stuff. You know, that's the best
• 1:22:53
  conversation to have. It is, yeah.
• 1:22:56
  It's not to be sort of dogged in a corner and say this is right,
• 1:22:59
  it's all right. Well, tell me what you think and
• 1:23:01
  let's talk about it. Yeah, it's, you know, it's like,
• 1:23:04
  you know, Delta in the Bannerman.
• 1:23:06
  It wasn't a very loved story. But over the over time, so many
• 1:23:11
  people's opinions, you know, you listen to people's opinions and
• 1:23:14
  more people love that story now because because they form their
• 1:23:17
  own opinion on it rather than listen to the, to the, you know,
• 1:23:20
  the kind of received wisdom of of fandom.
• 1:23:24
  So yeah, it's people just need to accept that there's other
• 1:23:27
  opinions. There's no need to attack
• 1:23:29
  people. I still think the Wedding River
• 1:23:32
  Song is the right dog of an episode just out there.
• 1:23:35
  Yeah, okay. Come on in.
• 1:23:38
  Let's hear from somebody else. Okay okay, so let's get back to
• 1:23:42
  the original tweet. So Dave Rennie, Dave from the
• 1:23:48
  Cattle, says he says Ian Gelda plays Creepy Bug as well.
• 1:23:55
  He was also unsettling in Torchwood, too.
• 1:23:57
  Yes, he was, absolutely. Right.
• 1:24:01
  And if you blow that Dave, ready.
• 1:24:02
  Yeah, and if you ever get a chance, I'm just going to plug
• 1:24:05
  this because I like plugging this series every now and again.
• 1:24:10
  Ian Gilda, I believe, is I think he might be married to Ben
• 1:24:14
  Daniels, who is a star of a fantastic series called The
• 1:24:20
  Exorcist. Which is a spinoff or sequel to
• 1:24:24
  the film and it's amazing. Got cancelled after two series,
• 1:24:27
  but he's amazing and he plays an alcoholic exorcist.
• 1:24:31
  Check it out everybody. Yeah, I don't think you can get
• 1:24:34
  it on DVD, but let's do something that still recommends.
• 1:24:39
  Always. Any chance I get to plug that
• 1:24:41
  series, I will do. I loved it.
• 1:24:45
  We got Brendan. Brendan A Jones.
• 1:24:47
  It's one of my faves of series 12, Ryan.
• 1:24:50
  Support of Tibo is really well handled.
• 1:24:53
  The villains plan really connects well with childhood
• 1:24:55
  fears. Love.
• 1:24:56
  The Doctor flying off to get into trouble because she's
• 1:24:58
  bored? Yes.
• 1:25:01
  And he also continues with while I think the off criticized
• 1:25:05
  Doctor Graham bit at the end could have.
• 1:25:07
  A better dialogue. I don't do wonder if it's more
• 1:25:10
  vocal critics always if it if it's more vocal critics always
• 1:25:14
  have the right words to say when their friends ask for support.
• 1:25:19
  And in a response to that, Jeff, the lovely Jeff Goddard.
• 1:25:26
  But he's been on both sides of the conversation at various
• 1:25:28
  points. I'm sure many have.
• 1:25:30
  Sometimes just vocalizing is all that's needed.
• 1:25:33
  You don't need, want or expect an answer, just a pair of ears
• 1:25:36
  to hear, and sometimes there are no words to offer in return,
• 1:25:40
  only empty platitudes and Andy Parkinson added.
• 1:25:46
  I do wish they hadn't put that scene in if they weren't going,
• 1:25:50
  If they weren't going to, at least.
• 1:25:51
  Get her to empathize. It does seem a bit clunky, but
• 1:25:54
  Bradley Walsh knocks it out of the park with his performance.
• 1:25:57
  I question that. I think she does empathize by
• 1:26:01
  listening by saying she wished she did better.
• 1:26:04
  I mean, she kind of makes it about herself rather than about
• 1:26:06
  what he's going through. But I think the act of listening
• 1:26:10
  is an act of empathy. Yeah, absolutely it is, Andy
• 1:26:15
  also says. This is one of the best shipment
• 1:26:18
  episodes for companion development, which we kind of
• 1:26:22
  touched on that. Yeah, definitely, and somebody
• 1:26:27
  called the British Alien said. For me, the companions loom
• 1:26:30
  large, but their characters aren't developed.
• 1:26:34
  It's so interesting, isn't it? It is in every direction.
• 1:26:38
  And not one point. Are we sitting here criticizing
• 1:26:42
  the opinions of these people? You know, because it is, Yeah,
• 1:26:49
  you can. Sometimes you can choose to see
• 1:26:51
  the development or you can choose to say there's no
• 1:26:53
  development there. You know, it's for me.
• 1:26:56
  I watch it and I see Ryan developing into somebody who
• 1:26:59
  actually maybe doesn't want to continue this life traveling in
• 1:27:02
  the TARDIS and wants to actually stay at home and support his
• 1:27:05
  friends and everything. That's the development I see for
• 1:27:07
  Ryan, acknowledging that she's come from a dark place and
• 1:27:13
  thanking the person that helped her do that.
• 1:27:16
  And then I'll see Graham acknowledging the facts out loud
• 1:27:21
  that he still has fears about his physical health.
• 1:27:24
  Yeah, I mean, I do, I do, I do. You know, kind of, I would have
• 1:27:28
  loved to have seen it hinted at from the start perhaps that
• 1:27:33
  there was, that there was these issues going on, you know, say
• 1:27:36
  there was something. In the background that we
• 1:27:38
  weren't quite aware of with Yaz from from right at the start of
• 1:27:42
  the series. But that's how television is
• 1:27:45
  made, isn't it? Sometimes things don't come into
• 1:27:49
  it until it's done that as well though, you know, Cuz I think
• 1:27:52
  that scene in Spiteful where she breaks down in tears after she
• 1:27:56
  goes off to that dark space, it does show her to be quite
• 1:27:59
  vulnerable. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:28:01
  So yeah, I think I've read a comment about that earlier on,
• 1:28:03
  actually. And Andy also puts also a Zelin
• 1:28:08
  Rekaya that was the name of the female, the prototypes for Swarm
• 1:28:13
  and Azure. So it was Andy who mentioned
• 1:28:15
  that you can feel some similarities between this and
• 1:28:18
  the Flux. You can.
• 1:28:20
  I think Swarm and Azure are more melodramatic in camp and far
• 1:28:25
  more entertaining to watch as a result.
• 1:28:29
  Yeah, Fraser. So Fraser's lightning the mood a
• 1:28:35
  little bit. Snog marry or poke to death with
• 1:28:38
  detachable fingers and your options are Tibo Tahira and
• 1:28:42
  Yazis police officer Tibo Tahira and Yazis police officer Okay.
• 1:28:48
  So I'll obviously snog Tibo cuz he had massive gorgeous full
• 1:28:54
  lips and he looked very kissable.
• 1:28:57
  I'm going to marry the police officer because she seems like a
• 1:29:00
  lovely person. What am I doing?
• 1:29:04
  I'm shoving fingers here. To death with detachable
• 1:29:07
  fingers. Yeah, because I want her out of
• 1:29:09
  the episode. So sorry to hear her.
• 1:29:10
  You're out. What?
• 1:29:11
  About you, I think I'd say Snog. He has his police officer
• 1:29:19
  because I think she's absolutely bloody wonderful for what she
• 1:29:22
  does in that in that story. I would say marry TiVo because
• 1:29:28
  it just feels like you need some some love, some comfort.
• 1:29:35
  And yeah, poke to death with detachable fingers to hear her,
• 1:29:37
  unfortunately. And we like to hear her as well,
• 1:29:40
  but I love the bit when she comes along at the beginning.
• 1:29:42
  She's a terrible old gossip with her mate, yeah.
• 1:29:46
  Oh, hang on off. Just come off it.
• 1:29:48
  Bear with me. Oh, no.
• 1:29:49
  Here we go. Steve Alexandra Alexander.
• 1:29:53
  Sorry, sorry. Steve says it's it's fingers in
• 1:29:57
  your ears time. I'm sure that was a bit in Wacky
• 1:30:00
  Day where they used to do that. I can't.
• 1:30:03
  I remember Wacky Day, but I can't remember that.
• 1:30:05
  It's good to know you're ready and.
• 1:30:08
  You're walking awake. So on your Marks and gets it go
• 1:30:11
  oh boom boom boom swacky day. No school today.
• 1:30:15
  What? You gonna do that?
• 1:30:17
  Oh my God. You remember Maris Malia?
• 1:30:19
  Yeah, No repetition or deviations, or you get a bash on
• 1:30:21
  the head like this, but on boom, that is all coming, yeah.
• 1:30:28
  That's it. Come on, Steven, you're
• 1:30:30
  challenging me a bit. Daniel Knight, Could this have
• 1:30:35
  been better? We have a moment for Daniel
• 1:30:37
  Knight, please. We do like Daniel that oh, he's
• 1:30:39
  gorgeous. Got to do.
• 1:30:40
  Like we do like Daniel. Could this have been better if
• 1:30:44
  it had focused solely on the doctor and the farm and no
• 1:30:46
  pointless trips back to 14th century Syria?
• 1:30:49
  But it does also add when I say better.
• 1:30:52
  I don't think it's bad, but it could have utilized the regulars
• 1:30:55
  far better. It seemed to be going for a
• 1:30:57
  Bussy, Buffy style vibe and focusing purely on the doctor.
• 1:31:01
  Graham, Yaz and Ryan would have streamlined it and made it more
• 1:31:04
  coherent, in my opinion. Very smart as well.
• 1:31:08
  That's exactly what we said earlier.
• 1:31:09
  Yeah, get rid of Aleppo and more of the regulars.
• 1:31:13
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd have to agree.
• 1:31:15
  I'd have to agree as much as I enjoy it, like you said before,
• 1:31:19
  ditch it and kind of free the space up a little bit in the
• 1:31:22
  story to explore it a little bit further.
• 1:31:25
  Simon, Simon Hart. Which of the stories would
• 1:31:30
  benefit from having animated exposition scenes?
• 1:31:33
  Do you think it works? Oh, yes.
• 1:31:36
  Just Chris Chibnall's script, the timeless children would have
• 1:31:39
  benefited, so we didn't have to put up with that long slide 15
• 1:31:43
  minutes. The Masters PowerPoint
• 1:31:45
  presentation if it was just a 2 minute animation.
• 1:31:49
  I do like that I do like his PowerPoint presentation.
• 1:31:52
  However, I do agree. Reading reading that comment
• 1:31:55
  from Simon, I do think that that would have worked better with a
• 1:31:59
  with an animated sequence. That's been really nice because
• 1:32:03
  it annoys Fraser Crickery so much.
• 1:32:06
  That sequence in Thomas Children.
• 1:32:08
  I think it's interminable. I, I, I, I enjoy it.
• 1:32:11
  I enjoy it. For it's again.
• 1:32:14
  Again, I respect other people's opinions on that.
• 1:32:17
  They might not like that, you know that can happen, isn't.
• 1:32:20
  It I was sat there on the edge of my seat watching that, you
• 1:32:23
  know, and it just goes to show how different people can be.
• 1:32:28
  We've got Daniel Rawnsley. Oh, so I think he's he's
• 1:32:34
  commented on something he might have already commented on, but I
• 1:32:36
  can only see the second part, so he's just put ooh.
• 1:32:39
  Also, they're more creepy than camp, but Zelin and Rekaya,
• 1:32:43
  again, an early inspiration for swarming Azure for the question
• 1:32:46
  mark. So whatever insightful comment
• 1:32:50
  you made, Daniel, thank you very much.
• 1:32:53
  We've got to say we agree with it wholeheartedly.
• 1:32:56
  We do. Hopefully we might find the
• 1:32:58
  first part of the comment somewhere further down.
• 1:32:59
  We'll have a look though. Eric White, which I'm assuming
• 1:33:02
  is not related to John. I liked a lot of the story, but
• 1:33:06
  the resolution was awful and Jarred with the rest of it.
• 1:33:10
  Fair enough. Jack Koyer, Who?
• 1:33:17
  Jack, you've had on your podcast before, haven't you?
• 1:33:19
  It's so he's so smart. Listening to what I need to get
• 1:33:28
  that she's been asking. I need to make it happen.
• 1:33:31
  Getting back in Well, he's got an interesting question.
• 1:33:33
  I think the character development of this story would
• 1:33:35
  have been better served in series 11.
• 1:33:38
  Which series 11 story would you put into series 12 if they
• 1:33:41
  exchanged places? I think some of that series 11
• 1:33:47
  sort of more sedate pace would have worked in series 12 just
• 1:33:50
  for one episode. It's so fast-paced, so serious.
• 1:33:53
  12 stories maybe I would have put in.
• 1:33:59
  It takes you away. Yeah, I was thinking more along
• 1:34:03
  the lines of something like arachnids in the UK still, you
• 1:34:07
  can still, you know you're still taking them back-to-back home,
• 1:34:11
  but. We kind of, it's a little bit
• 1:34:13
  more lightweight. At lightweight we just annoy
• 1:34:15
  everybody and make Ratnes in the UK, the sequel in 612, we have
• 1:34:20
  two lots of it, those spiders that the thing that people
• 1:34:24
  object to. So those spiders being, you
• 1:34:25
  know, crushed to death with no, some of them got out and they
• 1:34:30
  multiplied and they're all over the world now.
• 1:34:35
  The rack needs in the world. There you go.
• 1:34:36
  There's a sequel. There you go.
• 1:34:38
  Cuz I love. I do like.
• 1:34:39
  I like arachnids. I do and I hate spiders.
• 1:34:42
  But I love arachnids. Hannah.
• 1:34:45
  I'm not sure of no Hannah, no Hannah.
• 1:34:51
  She's coming on to do Ghost Light you.
• 1:34:53
  Know. Wow.
• 1:34:54
  Wow. All the stories to choose is
• 1:34:56
  your first one. Such an interesting one.
• 1:34:58
  Wow. Yeah, I would not even attempt
• 1:35:01
  it, so I can't wait to hear that, she says.
• 1:35:04
  I love how unsettling and creepy it is.
• 1:35:08
  Mr. Tom says. There was some very dodgy
• 1:35:11
  direction going on when the Doctor managed to get the Sonic
• 1:35:14
  out of a pocket by wiggling a bit, and it suddenly managed to
• 1:35:17
  leap out of a pocket into her hand.
• 1:35:23
  Yeah. Well, funny.
• 1:35:27
  What the Kragas saw says, I think it suffers from the fact
• 1:35:31
  which blighted most of the chip malaria.
• 1:35:33
  It doesn't actually have a cohesive end, It just sort of
• 1:35:36
  stops and there's no evidence of a plan to revisit the dangling
• 1:35:39
  threads ever again. I think that's entirely wrong.
• 1:35:44
  They think those endings do suffer a bit.
• 1:35:47
  They do. They do, except when she blows
• 1:35:50
  the kiss to the frog. I love that.
• 1:35:53
  It kind of. Sometimes it reminds me of.
• 1:35:56
  I was watching a Deep Space 9 Star Trek Space Nine episode the
• 1:35:59
  other day or the other week with O'Brien where he lives 20 years
• 1:36:06
  hard time. Is it a hard time and you never
• 1:36:09
  see any consequences of it ever again?
• 1:36:11
  It's a fantastic episode, particularly troubling aspect of
• 1:36:15
  Star Trek. You know, I watched Genesis the
• 1:36:18
  other day where the TNG crew got de evolved into monsters.
• 1:36:23
  Between the scenes they were re evolved into their normal selves
• 1:36:26
  with no signs that they had any issues at.
• 1:36:29
  All wow. Wow.
• 1:36:30
  And it's. Yeah, it did remind me of that
• 1:36:34
  kind of Star Trek thing and Deep Space 9 and they were going
• 1:36:39
  totally up on the tangent now. But Deep Space Nine was always
• 1:36:41
  very good at weaving in the. Recurring things.
• 1:36:44
  So to abandon something like that, Yeah, it was a short size.
• 1:36:47
  It doesn't escape the fact that that is a brilliant episode
• 1:36:50
  though. The performances are brilliant.
• 1:36:52
  Yeah, that affected me when I was a when I I think I saw it
• 1:36:56
  when I was about about 14 and it it it upset me, you know, to see
• 1:37:02
  the character that I loved putting into that do health as
• 1:37:05
  well, wasn't it? Exactly.
• 1:37:06
  Yeah, it is, Yeah. Yeah, we made a link at least.
• 1:37:10
  Good. These questions are still
• 1:37:13
  coming. Well, I say questions, but we've
• 1:37:15
  got we've got the continuation of the arguments going on as
• 1:37:19
  well this. It's slowly updating as we're
• 1:37:21
  going through it. But you know we have to get to
• 1:37:25
  everything. Are we, Max?
• 1:37:27
  Blake says this episode has the worst SFX I've I had seen in
• 1:37:31
  Doctor Who based on the year it was made.
• 1:37:33
  After the two villains get trapped, there's a shot of them
• 1:37:35
  screaming trapped and it is terrible.
• 1:37:37
  Poorly active and shot. The rest is fine, but the
• 1:37:40
  depression subplot was underutilized.
• 1:37:42
  Max, you are so right. It's terrible and in an era
• 1:37:47
  where the special effects are amazing.
• 1:37:49
  Yeah, yeah, something went wrong there.
• 1:37:53
  Matt Price says. I think it's it's a truly solid,
• 1:37:56
  solid story that deserves credit for wanting to talk mental
• 1:37:58
  health. And once the ending is divisive,
• 1:38:00
  I think it fits well with the character of Jody's Doctor and
• 1:38:03
  represents me in a way I don't often have the words for a
• 1:38:06
  situation as delicate as that there.
• 1:38:09
  You go. Liz on hiatus says it's a good
• 1:38:15
  episode, but I absolutely hate debating it.
• 1:38:17
  Most of the time it isn't pleasant and just makes me end
• 1:38:20
  up feeling worse. It never turns out to be a fun
• 1:38:22
  conversation, so I will say that I like it and leave it at that.
• 1:38:26
  That's nice for the last two hours of podcasting.
• 1:38:31
  Then see what are you on hiatus from?
• 1:38:34
  Can you come back at us and let us know?
• 1:38:36
  Except for A/C content. That's what's in her name.
• 1:38:38
  Liz on hiatus, except for A/C content.
• 1:38:42
  Come back, Liz. We apologize.
• 1:38:45
  We have had fun debating it, though.
• 1:38:47
  Yeah. And then quite clearly, it does
• 1:38:49
  throw up debate. So.
• 1:38:52
  Carrie says, much like the rest of series 12, I rather enjoy it.
• 1:38:55
  It's not most it's not the most groundbreaking Doctor Who has
• 1:38:58
  ever been. The idea of the Immortals is
• 1:39:00
  captivating. One thing I wanted from Jody's
• 1:39:02
  run was to pit her against evils from the dawn of time, and this
• 1:39:05
  episode was the closest we got very satisfied with this thing.
• 1:39:10
  I I'm a huge fan of series 12 as well.
• 1:39:13
  You know, that's not really opinion.
• 1:39:14
  You could. Oh, I I don't know if it's
• 1:39:16
  because we're in the middle of a pandemic at the time, but it was
• 1:39:19
  like my comfort comfort. Thing at the time you know
• 1:39:23
  knowing that Doctor Who was still there and the doctor was
• 1:39:25
  still out there in the world saving it.
• 1:39:27
  You know I loved it and okay so Lord reverend call hulan igneous
• 1:39:38
  mo. I think this is the, this is
• 1:39:41
  the. This is what triggered the
• 1:39:43
  rather heated. Read the 1st doctor would have
• 1:39:48
  would have ignored Graham's words.
• 1:39:50
  The third would have listened while tinkering with something,
• 1:39:53
  then changed the subject. 6 would have been at a loss and 12
• 1:39:56
  would have been rude. People make a fuss because it's
• 1:39:58
  13 and then he don't. Entirely disagree with that.
• 1:40:03
  No, and he added. I think, in fact I think only
• 1:40:06
  two, five and 11 would have had much empathy, he posted.
• 1:40:11
  Question if two would have actually who struggled to talk
• 1:40:14
  about his feelings? Maybe 5-5 and 11:00.
• 1:40:21
  Possibly, And but that that then triggered A gentleman called
• 1:40:28
  this assume is a gentleman called Problem being you slash
• 1:40:30
  what? I don't know what you've been
• 1:40:33
  watching, but it isn't Doctor Who.
• 1:40:35
  There is absolutely no justification for supporting
• 1:40:37
  that scene. It was an absolute betrayal of
• 1:40:39
  the character. I will.
• 1:40:42
  I will. I won't read everything out, but
• 1:40:45
  he says the error was not maybe awful or sort of bad or
• 1:40:49
  semidecent. It was absolutely turgid, and it
• 1:40:54
  did set off a bit of a bit of a debate.
• 1:41:00
  It's still going on because the guy replied 2 minutes ago about
• 1:41:04
  ratings. That's very much a I I
• 1:41:08
  completely respect that he hates this period of Doctor Who.
• 1:41:11
  You know, I feel sorry for you because there was three years of
• 1:41:14
  Doctor Who that you didn't enjoy.
• 1:41:15
  That's very much a closed tweet. That's not inviting any kind of
• 1:41:21
  discussion. It's just an opinion basically
• 1:41:23
  saying this is a fact and that's that.
• 1:41:26
  So it's not really a conversation you should have.
• 1:41:28
  It's not. It's not, and it's.
• 1:41:30
  You're jumping in with an opinion like that.
• 1:41:33
  It does turn rather vicious. It's a shame, isn't it?
• 1:41:38
  It's a shame cuz wouldn't it be lovely if we could get all these
• 1:41:41
  people with differing opinions onto a podcast and get everybody
• 1:41:45
  together and discuss it face? To face I had Luke Malloy and
• 1:41:50
  Dylan Reeves on the other day to do The Impossible Astronaut and
• 1:41:54
  Day of the Moon 80 past. I have extreme issues with and
• 1:41:57
  they love. Yeah.
• 1:41:58
  And we laughed and discussed and flirted our way through those
• 1:42:03
  two episodes in the most amiable way, whilst we had completely
• 1:42:08
  differing opinions about just about everything it can be.
• 1:42:12
  It can be done. It can be done.
• 1:42:13
  You just have to, again, allow yourself to.
• 1:42:17
  I think both approaches have to be open to the challenge of
• 1:42:20
  their opinion. Yeah, and I mean that on both
• 1:42:23
  sides of the coin. Even the pro Jody lovers need to
• 1:42:26
  be open to the challenge that it's not perfect, it is flawed,
• 1:42:32
  and those flaws should be discussed.
• 1:42:34
  Yeah, exactly. So I will kind of, yeah, I will
• 1:42:39
  kind of come away from that. And go on to a few more
• 1:42:44
  questions here. So not questions, comments, but
• 1:42:46
  Alan, who says in my head Cannon, Zellin and Rakia are the
• 1:42:50
  same characters as Mansell and Rack, We, we call them.
• 1:42:55
  Made a bit of a comparison earlier, didn't we?
• 1:42:57
  Yeah, yeah, I like that Michael Russell, he says.
• 1:43:00
  I love it. Including the ending.
• 1:43:02
  Jody Whitaker. Zero was brilliant and I think
• 1:43:04
  years from now it will be reevaluated the way Sylvester
• 1:43:06
  Mccoy's has been. A gentleman did.
• 1:43:15
  I can't pronounce his username maybe Kim in time he he he said
• 1:43:21
  there's something about blocking people but he also made the
• 1:43:23
  point of Chipmel was writing from personal experience and the
• 1:43:27
  people saying this. I've not not had the first clue
• 1:43:29
  what it's like to go through having cancer.
• 1:43:33
  I do. I I do recognize that a lot of
• 1:43:37
  the the writing has has got a bit of a personal twist on it
• 1:43:40
  from. You know, Chip not, I believe
• 1:43:44
  he, he was also, did Chip not say he was also adopted?
• 1:43:48
  And he, he kind of wrote with that idea in mind with the
• 1:43:53
  Timeless child. And so, yeah, he was doing his
• 1:43:57
  own personal experiences within Doctor Who, and that's his
• 1:44:01
  subjective take on Doctor Who as well.
• 1:44:03
  He needs to be open to the challenge of people saying,
• 1:44:06
  well, I didn't really work for me, sorry.
• 1:44:08
  Yeah. Exactly.
• 1:44:11
  James H says OK, so the flip in the Sonic scene isn't really
• 1:44:14
  possible, but I never bothered who previously.
• 1:44:17
  Other than that, it's great, the great tribute to
• 1:44:19
  extradimensional continuity. And gods, John says.
• 1:44:25
  I know I'm in a minority on this, but as someone who
• 1:44:28
  struggles with empathy and is a bit socially awkward in
• 1:44:30
  situations like that, it was nice to see someone on screen
• 1:44:33
  reacting as as I fear I would Cliff any voice work going.
• 1:44:39
  It says incredibly dull for the most part.
• 1:44:41
  Frequently quite stupid and with jaw droppingly ill thought.
• 1:44:44
  With a jaw droppingly ill thought ending that doesn't even
• 1:44:47
  need to be there. Terrible waste of a great guest
• 1:44:50
  star. Just disastrous.
• 1:44:53
  I I love how it divides people, that it's literally all over the
• 1:45:01
  place, isn't it? Some people hate it, some people
• 1:45:04
  love it, and most people are somewhere in the middle saying I
• 1:45:06
  like it, but I'll. Yeah, and some people didn't
• 1:45:10
  talk about it and to be honest, what's something called WA, but
• 1:45:19
  to be honest, what's what 13 says incredibly out of pocket.
• 1:45:23
  It's also kind of accurate to what some people say in that
• 1:45:25
  situation. Hence why Chipman says he wrote
• 1:45:27
  it based off his experience. But I wish he would maybe would
• 1:45:31
  have said it more earlier on, so it aged somewhat better.
• 1:45:37
  I think we're kind of there. I think you know that's we've
• 1:45:45
  done 15 minutes of tweets there. So I think that's a fair
• 1:45:48
  coverage. If we didn't get to your
• 1:45:50
  comment, I apologize. Yeah, because it is also not
• 1:45:55
  because we didn't want to read it, but because it's bloody hard
• 1:45:58
  to to find because we've got discussions now about ratings.
• 1:46:05
  And Moffett era ratings and stuff like that.
• 1:46:07
  So I'm just going to assume that your opinion, those that we
• 1:46:10
  didn't get to is somewhere between height, love and like in
• 1:46:15
  the middle. Yeah, I I would.
• 1:46:18
  I would close the tweet, but I'm not.
• 1:46:21
  I'm going to leave it open because I think it'll
• 1:46:22
  eventually, it'll eventually burn out and people need to get
• 1:46:25
  their opinions off the chest like that.
• 1:46:27
  So that's certainly one of the these sort of the hottest takes
• 1:46:32
  on an episode that I've you put it out to Twitter but hand
• 1:46:37
  stuff. I opened.
• 1:46:40
  I opened the floodgates there. I opened the kind of worms,
• 1:46:42
  yeah, not to do with me or I come through it.
• 1:46:45
  I'm joking. I'm joking.
• 1:46:48
  On this podcast. Jesus, what we do have to do
• 1:46:51
  now, though, we do have to still name the three things that we
• 1:46:55
  would recommend. We do, don't we, About this
• 1:46:57
  episode and start with you? Okay.
• 1:47:00
  Well, I would say my first one, it would be it.
• 1:47:04
  It's tackling of mental health issues and you know we've talked
• 1:47:08
  about it in great depth tonight. It's it's very brave to go
• 1:47:15
  there. It's very it's very brave to go
• 1:47:19
  there with your regulars as well and to show that the size of
• 1:47:23
  them, that you know, you may or may not always agree with and
• 1:47:28
  that you know. There is, there is those things
• 1:47:32
  going on in the world and people need to be aware of them.
• 1:47:37
  So yeah, I would say the mental, the tackling mental health
• 1:47:39
  subjects. I'm gonna say I really love the
• 1:47:42
  weirdness in this episode. I really like how it refuses to
• 1:47:47
  conform to what we kind of accepted.
• 1:47:50
  This is something very dreamy. We're going into nightmares.
• 1:47:53
  We're going into some weird other space between planet
• 1:47:56
  prisons, you know? I like all of that.
• 1:48:00
  And I think there's some really terrific imagery in this
• 1:48:03
  episode. I probably would say the music.
• 1:48:09
  God damn it, my second one. Because second a canola, you
• 1:48:16
  know I love Murray Gold to bits. But second A Canola's music is
• 1:48:20
  just it's been one of the highlights of the chip and Alera
• 1:48:25
  and just that I mentioned it earlier the kind of on constant
• 1:48:31
  ambient music in the background just kind of ramping up that
• 1:48:36
  kind of the. It's there and it gives you the
• 1:48:41
  stings when you need it and it's just there bubbling under the
• 1:48:44
  surface, and I really like that. It's not.
• 1:48:48
  It's just fantastic. It means when he punctuates with
• 1:48:51
  those dramatic stings, you're sort of really taken aback,
• 1:48:54
  aren't you? Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic.
• 1:48:58
  I am going to say the performances of all four of the
• 1:49:03
  leads, they're all given quite challenging material to play in
• 1:49:06
  this. But I really want to highlight
• 1:49:09
  Amanda Gill who as her time goes on, gets more and more to do.
• 1:49:15
  And I think the so 11 she's a little bit wasted 12 the tide is
• 1:49:19
  turning and at 13 she's on fire and we're at that sort of
• 1:49:23
  turning point now. She plays those sequences where
• 1:49:28
  Yaz is depressed and where she's come to terms with that and is
• 1:49:33
  she's just she's just brilliant. I I've been both the person
• 1:49:38
  depressed and the person on the other side of it, and I see
• 1:49:42
  myself in how she plays the character, and I can't.
• 1:49:45
  For me, subjectively, I cannot, you know, say anything more
• 1:49:49
  positive than that about performance is I see myself in a
• 1:49:52
  companion. I say my last one would be
• 1:49:56
  probably the the the lighting and the color of the episode
• 1:50:01
  that you know from the from the Reds and the Blues and the
• 1:50:04
  blacks of the TARDIS to the the complete lack of color when
• 1:50:10
  Zelin and Rakai are walking down the street in the fog to the the
• 1:50:16
  the Blues in Aleppo where the you know the the cold and the
• 1:50:19
  claw. Grabbing the the, the lady's
• 1:50:23
  face and just that kind of the lighting.
• 1:50:26
  I just think the lighting really helps, especially in a in a set
• 1:50:30
  as difficult as as the Jody's console room.
• 1:50:34
  I keep Jody's, Jody's console room, the doctor's console room
• 1:50:38
  I always say Jody is. Jody yeah.
• 1:50:41
  Whittaker's console room. She's so synonymous with the
• 1:50:45
  power, right? Yeah, she is.
• 1:50:47
  Her stamps all over it. Yeah.
• 1:50:50
  But yeah, I would say the lighting and the coloring.
• 1:50:53
  And my last thing is going to be that last scene between the
• 1:50:58
  Doctor and Graham. Partly because I personally like
• 1:51:04
  how it's portrayed and have seen that awkward reaction to tough
• 1:51:09
  conversations, but mostly because it provokes it
• 1:51:13
  stimulates so much discussion around that idea.
• 1:51:18
  And whether that is people jumping in with very sort of
• 1:51:22
  stubborn opinions or toxic opinions or reasonable criticism
• 1:51:28
  or being very positive about it, it people are talking about it.
• 1:51:34
  I think he knew that was going to happen.
• 1:51:36
  I don't think it's an accident that that scene is there and I
• 1:51:40
  think it got the result that he wanted as well.
• 1:51:43
  Yeah, I agree with you. I agree.
• 1:51:46
  I don't think I've ever seen anything so.
• 1:51:49
  Advisive. Well, they'll probably have
• 1:51:51
  timeless. Timeless child.
• 1:51:53
  Arc is love and monsters. Yeah, Yeah.
• 1:52:00
  I would agree with you there. Yeah, I can't.
• 1:52:02
  You know, I can't remember the last time a new series episode
• 1:52:06
  has brought up such a varied number of voices, you know?
• 1:52:14
  Yes, it's been a real treat to talk about this one, and it
• 1:52:17
  surprised me because you might think this is a bit of an
• 1:52:20
  inoffensive mid season episode. Not at all, Not at all.
• 1:52:25
  It's there and it's, I mean we've been talking for what,
• 1:52:28
  nearly two hours? Yeah, two hours.
• 1:52:32
  Yeah. It's absolutely it's a very
• 1:52:35
  important story and. That's what I want Doctor Who to
• 1:52:41
  be. Maybe not all the time.
• 1:52:42
  Maybe sometimes you just want to sit back and watch some daft,
• 1:52:45
  like Iraqis in the UK or, I don't know, dinosaurs on a
• 1:52:49
  spaceship or, you know, sometimes that's that's what you
• 1:52:51
  want. You know, if I wouldn't watch
• 1:52:54
  this as a comfort episode, you know, I've got my comfort
• 1:52:57
  episodes. This wouldn't be a comfort
• 1:52:59
  episode. But I think it's a very
• 1:53:02
  important episode, despite its, you know, some of the
• 1:53:06
  shortcomings. I think it's.
• 1:53:09
  It needed to be done. Anyone that suggests that this
• 1:53:12
  era isn't pushing boundaries, like I accuse the Moffett era
• 1:53:17
  being very ambitious, not often getting it right, but being
• 1:53:21
  extremely brave and ambitious. Why, This is doing exactly the
• 1:53:24
  same thing. Yeah, you know, almost
• 1:53:27
  encouraging people to be uncomfortable with it.
• 1:53:31
  Yeah, and I think as well, you know, you know, for as much as
• 1:53:34
  we pour love onto this era as well.
• 1:53:37
  And it is. Sometimes I think this is my
• 1:53:41
  favorite era of New Who, and it's one of the only years that
• 1:53:45
  I regularly go back to to watch. But as much as I love it, I also
• 1:53:50
  appreciate that there are some parts of it I don't always love.
• 1:53:54
  You know, there's, you know, because I don't.
• 1:53:55
  I don't want people to sit there at home thinking, oh, it's just
• 1:53:58
  a loving for the Chignel era because it's, you know, it's
• 1:54:01
  not. I think.
• 1:54:02
  I think there are some parts of it where it fails, you know, I
• 1:54:05
  think. And I think there was a lot of
• 1:54:08
  wasted opportunities in in series 11.
• 1:54:10
  I think, you know, I'm not keen on the Sinangre conundrum, the
• 1:54:15
  the finale, the battle of runs, Karoff Coal loss.
• 1:54:18
  It's not. It's not.
• 1:54:19
  Perfect Companions was frequently one too many.
• 1:54:23
  Yeah, exactly. And there's sometimes where I
• 1:54:27
  feel sometimes, especially in series 11, where sometimes
• 1:54:29
  Jody's performance feels a little bit forced and it's a
• 1:54:32
  little bit too, you know, happy, happy.
• 1:54:36
  And Legends of the Sea Devils? It's not bloody tedious, yeah.
• 1:54:42
  You know, it's not, it's not all perfect, but that's me and
• 1:54:45
  Doctor Who, and that is how I will always be with Doctor Who.
• 1:54:48
  I will love bits, and I will not love bits as much, but I will
• 1:54:53
  always love it as a whole. And that is Doctor Who for me.
• 1:54:58
  Yeah. Well, I think that's a wonderful
• 1:55:01
  place to end this discussion. Boy, what a discussion, Jim.
• 1:55:07
  Where are we going next? I don't know.
• 1:55:10
  We've not determined that, have we?
• 1:55:11
  We did at some point a while ago consider doing the the No.
• 1:55:20
  What was it? I forgot the name of it because
• 1:55:22
  it's so dull. Eaters of Light from series 10
• 1:55:26
  Oh God, this is well, I don't think we ever set anything in
• 1:55:30
  stone. Or do you love that one?
• 1:55:34
  No. I want, I want to find a cheek
• 1:55:37
  of chink of light in the eases of light.
• 1:55:39
  But well, actually, no, I did watch you recently remark, you
• 1:55:43
  know, and I did come away thinking it was better than I
• 1:55:45
  remembered it being. All right, well, look, it's
• 1:55:49
  going to happen. I've got to cover every episode.
• 1:55:52
  So we'll we'll reengage in Roman Britain, or is it Roman
• 1:55:57
  Scotland? I can't even remember.
• 1:56:01
  I think I watched it twice. We'll sit around a campfire and
• 1:56:04
  discuss how fabulous it is to be bisexual and face a very obscure
• 1:56:10
  monster made of light. Cannot wait.
• 1:56:15
  I mean, I can't wait with that one, but I cannot wait to talk
• 1:56:18
  to you again. Thank you very much.
• 1:56:20
  Thank you for your time. It's been wonderful it.
• 1:56:22
  Has. Thank you very much, Joe.