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#096_ STORY INSPIRE: Stop Doing This — These Subtle Body Language Mistakes Are Making People Dislike You · INSPIRE STORY

0:00
Speaker 1: Your brain is 12.5 times more likely to believe my
0:03
Speaker 1: gesture over my words. And that's because it is very
0:05
Speaker 1: hard to lie with our gestures. For example, you want
0:07
Speaker 1: to do a little experiment with me?
0:08
Speaker 2: Sure.
0:08
Speaker 1: Okay, I want you to say five, but hold up
0:10
Speaker 1: the number three.
0:12
Speaker 2: Five.
0:13
Speaker 1: Hard, right?
0:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had to think about them separately.
0:15
Speaker 1: This is why liars use less gestures. But a known
0:18
Speaker 1: tool like that is critical if you're trying to set
0:20
Speaker 1: yourself up for success.
0:21
Speaker 2: And we're going to go through all of them.
0:22
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
0:23
Speaker 2: Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral investigator whose science-backed research
0:27
Speaker 2: from body language and micro-expressions to vocal tones and first
0:30
Speaker 2: impressions has revolutionized the way we build confidence.
0:32
Speaker 1: And create more authentic relationships in every social and professional interaction.
0:35
Speaker 1: I'm a recovering awkward person, and I thought that charisma
0:37
Speaker 1: was genetic, and I didn't know how to have conversations.
0:40
Speaker 1: I didn't even know how to have friends. Then I
0:42
Speaker 1: discovered that highly successful people speak a hidden language, and
0:45
Speaker 1: that is the language of cues. This is directly from
0:47
Speaker 1: the research. They know that blueprints will talk to anyone.
0:50
Speaker 1: They know that if you sit within 25 feet of
0:53
Speaker 1: a high performer, your own performance improves by 15%, and
0:56
Speaker 1: that there's a direct correlation between confidence and anxiety and
0:59
Speaker 1: the distance between our shoulder and our earlobe.
1:01
Speaker 2: So interesting.
1:01
Speaker 1: They also know that 82% of our impressions of people
1:04
Speaker 1: are base, on warmth and competence. So if you worry
1:07
Speaker 1: that people don't take you seriously, you have trouble getting raises,
1:10
Speaker 1: you feel anxious and overwhelmed, I have five power cues
1:12
Speaker 1: for competence. But if you have ever been told you're intimidating,
1:15
Speaker 1: hard to talk to, I want you to use these
1:17
Speaker 1: five warmth cues first.
1:20
Speaker 2: What about how to get a partner in terms of
1:22
Speaker 2: cues and body language?
1:23
Speaker 1: Let's start with a study that blew my mind. It's
1:25
Speaker 1: impossible to be attracted to someone who.
1:28
Speaker 2: That's so crazy, just such a small.
1:29
Speaker 1: That one little thing.
1:32
Speaker 2: This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53%
1:35
Speaker 2: of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet
1:37
Speaker 2: subscribed to this show. So could I ask you for
1:40
Speaker 2: a favor before we start? If you like the show
1:41
Speaker 2: and you like what we do here and you want
1:42
Speaker 2: to support us, the free, simple way that you can
1:44
Speaker 2: do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And
1:47
Speaker 2: my commitment to you is if you do that, then
1:49
Speaker 2: I'll do everything in my power, me and my team,
1:51
Speaker 2: to make sure that this show is better for you
1:53
Speaker 2: every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find
1:56
Speaker 2: the guests that you want me to speak to, and
1:58
Speaker 2: we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.
2:03
Speaker 2: Vanessa Van Edwards, for someone that's just clicked on this
2:08
Speaker 2: conversation now and they're wondering why they should stay and
2:11
Speaker 2: listen to what we're going to talk about, what would
2:13
Speaker 2: you say to them?
2:15
Speaker 1: Very highly successful people speak a hidden language and that
2:19
Speaker 1: is the language of cues. If you don't know how
2:22
Speaker 1: to read the cues people are sending to you, if
2:24
Speaker 1: you don't know how to control the cues you're sending
2:26
Speaker 1: to others, you are missing a crucial element of success.
2:30
Speaker 2: How do you quantify that in a way that I
2:33
Speaker 2: know that it's true. Are there studies or stats that
2:35
Speaker 2: reinforce what you've just said?
2:37
Speaker 1: 82% of our impressions of people are based on warmth
2:41
Speaker 1: and competence. That means that if we can control our
2:45
Speaker 1: warmth cues and our competence cues, we know we are
2:48
Speaker 1: taking care of 82% of our impression. And that is
2:52
Speaker 1: critical to being more memorable, to being more confident, to
2:54
Speaker 1: having clearer communication.
2:56
Speaker 2: And to take that a bit further, what areas of
2:58
Speaker 2: my life will that ask impact? So if I'm warm
3:01
Speaker 2: and I'm competent, which you're telling me are things that
3:02
Speaker 2: I can control, what are the downstream consequences of that?
3:06
Speaker 1: So I think my mission is to tackle a big lie.
3:10
Speaker 1: And that is that smart people will translate their book
3:14
Speaker 1: smarts into people smarts. But actually, no matter how smart
3:19
Speaker 1: you are, if you do not know how to communicate
3:21
Speaker 1: with people, you can't connect with people, You can't have
3:24
Speaker 1: good relationships. You can't have supportive friendships. You get looped
3:28
Speaker 1: into difficult people or toxic people. You have trouble getting
3:31
Speaker 1: raises or promotions. When you are able to control your communication,
3:35
Speaker 1: it helps you not be overlooked, not be misunderstood. And
3:38
Speaker 1: that affects your friendships, your partner, your career. And it
3:41
Speaker 1: also helps you feel more confident walking into a room.
3:45
Speaker 2: And what is your research based on? Are you a researcher?
3:47
Speaker 2: Have you done sort of first party research yourself? Where
3:50
Speaker 2: were you drawing from?
3:51
Speaker 1: So I'm a recovering awkward person. So I used to
3:55
Speaker 1: believe that you were either born with charisma or you weren't,
3:58
Speaker 1: that charisma was genetic. And in 2002, I discovered a
4:01
Speaker 1: study that changed my life, which said that charisma can
4:05
Speaker 1: be learned. This is when I started to tackle, to
4:09
Speaker 1: figure out, okay, if charisma can be learned, how do
4:11
Speaker 1: we learn it? How can we learn blueprints for conversation?
4:14
Speaker 1: How can we learn frameworks for how we connect and
4:17
Speaker 1: how we socialize? That's when I started doing my own research.
4:19
Speaker 1: So I'm a behavioral researcher and a best-selling author on communication.
4:23
Speaker 1: And I specialize in helping very brilliant, very smart, awkward
4:27
Speaker 1: folks not be overlooked.
4:29
Speaker 2: And give me some sort of depth as to the
4:31
Speaker 2: amount of research and the quantity of research that you've done,
4:33
Speaker 2: how many people you've studied, how many hours of footage,
4:35
Speaker 2: et cetera.
4:36
Speaker 1: Yep. So I developed my first framework about 12 years ago,
4:40
Speaker 1: and we've helped 400,000 students learn that framework, master it,
4:43
Speaker 1: and conquer awkwardness or feel more confident. Some of those
4:46
Speaker 1: folks had very professional goals like getting raised or promotion.
4:49
Speaker 1: Other folks were so socially anxious and so awkward they
4:53
Speaker 1: couldn't make friends. Other people were looking for their soulmate
4:55
Speaker 1: or their partner. And so 400,000 students have told me
4:58
Speaker 1: that this framework works.
5:00
Speaker 2: Nobody teaches this stuff, do they?
5:04
Speaker 1: Or actually, extroverts tend to teach it. So I read
5:07
Speaker 1: the quintessential How to Win Friends and Influence People back
5:09
Speaker 1: in the day. And that's a wonderful book, but it's
5:11
Speaker 1: a book written by an extrovert. If you are not
5:14
Speaker 1: naturally extroverted, I am not naturally extroverted. I'm more ambiverted.
5:18
Speaker 1: It is very hard to learn how to communicate if
5:20
Speaker 1: you don't naturally gravitate towards people. I was like, there
5:24
Speaker 1: has to be a way to teach introverts and ambiverts
5:26
Speaker 1: to be able to feel confident without having to fake
5:29
Speaker 1: it till you make it, without having to pretend to
5:31
Speaker 1: be extroverted or outgoing to be taken seriously or to
5:33
Speaker 1: be charismatic.
5:35
Speaker 2: What's an ambivert?
5:37
Speaker 1: So ambiverts get energy from the right people in the
5:40
Speaker 1: right places. So for example, in this interview, I love
5:43
Speaker 1: one-on-one conversations. I feel myself. But if we were to
5:46
Speaker 1: go to a loud bar or a nightclub, I would
5:48
Speaker 1: completely shut down and want to be alone. Amberverts can
5:51
Speaker 1: dial up extroversion to hit their goals so that they
5:54
Speaker 1: know they have to be friendly and meet people for
5:56
Speaker 1: an interview or a position. They can do it, but
5:59
Speaker 1: they need lots of recharge time. The reason why it's
6:01
Speaker 1: important to know if you're an Ambervert is because you
6:03
Speaker 1: should know what are the people and places that drain you.
6:08
Speaker 1: There are certain people, when you open your calendar and
6:10
Speaker 1: you look at it and you're like, Oh, I have
6:12
Speaker 1: to be with that person. That is someone that drains you.
6:15
Speaker 1: They do not bring out your extroversion or your natural
6:18
Speaker 1: love of people. There are also certain people who you
6:20
Speaker 1: feel you could talk to for hours. They give you
6:24
Speaker 1: social energy. They charge your social battery. So the very
6:26
Speaker 1: first thing I have students do is sit and make
6:28
Speaker 1: a list. Who are the people who give you energy,
6:30
Speaker 1: who charge you up? Who are the people who take
6:33
Speaker 1: from you? Those are people that we want to put
6:35
Speaker 1: boundaries around. We want to say no to. We want
6:37
Speaker 1: to limit as much as possible. And then also the places.
6:40
Speaker 1: Where do you thrive? Is it conferences, one-on-one business? Or
6:43
Speaker 1: is it friends, socializing, parties? Knowing those places helps you
6:46
Speaker 1: optimize your social battery.
6:48
Speaker 2: And when you say cues, which you said at the
6:50
Speaker 2: start of this conversation, people think of just body language.
6:53
Speaker 2: Is that the sort of full extent of areas that
6:55
Speaker 2: you focus on?
6:56
Speaker 1: Yes. So cues come into four different channels. There is
7:00
Speaker 1: body language. That's facial expressions, gestures, posture. But there's also vocal.
7:05
Speaker 1: So vocal cues are the tone of our voice, our pace,
7:07
Speaker 1: our volume, our cadence. There's also the words we use, obviously,
7:11
Speaker 1: verbal cues. The types of words that I'm choosing to
7:13
Speaker 1: use are signaling my warmth and competence to you. And
7:16
Speaker 1: the last, the smallest channel is our ornaments. The colors
7:18
Speaker 1: we wear, the jewelry we wear, the way we wear
7:20
Speaker 1: our hair, the way we wear your facial hair, those
7:23
Speaker 1: are also signaling different things or cuing people to feel
7:26
Speaker 1: a certain way about you.
7:27
Speaker 2: And what about what we say? Mm-hmm. Because I know
7:30
Speaker 2: you're writing a book about, I don't know if I
7:32
Speaker 2: can leak this, but here we go.
7:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can.
7:34
Speaker 2: You're writing a book about conversation, so what we say.
7:38
Speaker 1: So I did not realize how powerful our words are.
7:41
Speaker 1: And here's a study that really changed the way I
7:43
Speaker 1: think about this. Very simple study. They brought people into
7:46
Speaker 1: the lab and they split them up into two different groups.
7:49
Speaker 1: In one group, they said, today you're going to play
7:52
Speaker 1: the community game. And they played kind of a prisoner's
7:54
Speaker 1: dilemma type of game. The second group, they came into
7:57
Speaker 1: the same room, the same researcher, and they said, good morning.
8:00
Speaker 1: today you're going to play the Wall Street game. The
8:03
Speaker 1: trick was the games were exactly the same. There was
8:05
Speaker 1: no difference between the two games. What they found was
8:08
Speaker 1: everyone who was told they were playing the Wall Street
8:10
Speaker 1: game shared an average of one-third of their profits. Everyone
8:14
Speaker 1: who was told they were playing the community game shared
8:16
Speaker 1: an average of two-thirds of their profits. This means that
8:20
Speaker 1: that one word, community game, community, made people think and
8:25
Speaker 1: feel more about community. It made them act more collaboratively.
8:29
Speaker 1: This means that the words we're using in our emails,
8:31
Speaker 1: our subjects, our texts, our LinkedIn profile headlines are cuing
8:35
Speaker 1: people for how they should treat us. One really simple
8:38
Speaker 1: way to think about this is your calendar. I send
8:41
Speaker 1: out calendar invites multiple times a week to clients, to friends.
8:45
Speaker 1: When we have meeting, one-on-one, call, video, interview, I'm being
8:50
Speaker 1: cued for nothing. Those words are so overused, they're sterile.
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Speaker 1: If you add cues that prime people to feel or
8:58
Speaker 1: think a certain way, you're actually setting them up for success.
9:01
Speaker 1: So 2025 wins, collaborative session, strategy meeting, goal meeting, goal overview,
9:07
Speaker 1: teamwork collab session. Those words are actually cuing that person's
9:11
Speaker 1: brain every single time they open their calendar that when
9:14
Speaker 1: we read a word like collaborate, we are literally more
9:17
Speaker 1: likely to be collaborative. So the words that we use,
9:20
Speaker 1: even one single word can actually change the way people think.
9:24
Speaker 2: It's funny because our entire lives are people. Like the
9:27
Speaker 2: difference between me being a president, prime minister, superb salesperson,
9:32
Speaker 2: exceptional entrepreneur is probably just my understanding of other people
9:36
Speaker 2: and how I show up in my words and my cues.
9:39
Speaker 2: And so when you think about it like that, this
9:41
Speaker 2: could be for many people, the most important subject for
9:46
Speaker 2: them to improve upon.
9:48
Speaker 1: I would even go further and say if you don't
9:51
Speaker 1: have people skills, you cannot succeed. You cannot succeed in life.
9:54
Speaker 1: You cannot succeed in love. You cannot succeed in business.
9:57
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how smart you are. You need people.
10:00
Speaker 1: to have success. So this is, I think, the most
10:03
Speaker 1: fundamental skill that people can invest in.
10:05
Speaker 2: And how many people did you say you've taught people
10:07
Speaker 2: skills to? 400,000 students. And is there a particular case
10:10
Speaker 2: study that stands out to you as being the most
10:13
Speaker 2: extreme in terms of case studying the fact that someone
10:17
Speaker 2: can go from zero to... a wonderful place.
10:20
Speaker 1: Yes. And it's my very brilliant but stoic students. So
10:27
Speaker 1: I've noticed, especially over the last 10 years, because I've
10:29
Speaker 1: been doing this for about 17 years, in the last
10:31
Speaker 1: 10 years especially, my most extreme students are the students
10:35
Speaker 1: who are very, very smart, very talented and good at
10:37
Speaker 1: what they do, but they don't know what cues to send.
10:40
Speaker 1: And so they completely shut down. They try to become stoic, unreadable.
10:44
Speaker 1: They try to have no facial expressions. They literally try
10:47
Speaker 1: to poker face all the time. And as they try
10:50
Speaker 1: to make connections, meet a partner, make friends, people don't
10:54
Speaker 1: like them. People don't trust them. They can't get by
10:56
Speaker 1: into their ideas. And those are the students where I
10:59
Speaker 1: see the biggest transformation. They don't realize that muting, muting
11:03
Speaker 1: your cues is a danger zone cue. If you try
11:07
Speaker 1: to be stoic and unreadable, people literally cannot get a
11:10
Speaker 1: read on you. And so my biggest transformations have happened
11:12
Speaker 1: when I can say, you don't need to hide your
11:15
Speaker 1: true feelings. It's about amplifying them with the right cues.
11:18
Speaker 1: There's a famous example of this, Jamie Siminoff, founder of Ring.
11:22
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you ever watched Shark Tank.
11:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:25
Speaker 1: So in this episode, for those who haven't seen it,
11:27
Speaker 1: Jamie Siminoff entered the tank and he pitched a billion-dollar idea.
11:31
Speaker 1: Literally a billion-dollar idea because it went on to raise
11:34
Speaker 1: funding from Shaq and Richard Branson. But in the tank,
11:37
Speaker 1: he pitches the idea and he gets so much pushback
11:40
Speaker 1: and so much negotiation and he walks out of the
11:41
Speaker 1: tank without a deal. In fact, the Sharks did not
11:43
Speaker 1: like him.
11:44
Speaker 2: What happened?
11:45
Speaker 1: What happened? He had the billion dollar idea, but he
11:48
Speaker 1: did not know how to share it. This is the
11:50
Speaker 1: biggest transformation I see, is people who have brilliant ideas.
11:53
Speaker 1: They're good people. They're hardworking people. And they cannot get buy-in.
11:57
Speaker 1: They cannot make friends. They cannot find partners.
11:59
Speaker 2: How do they feel? So if you had to say
12:01
Speaker 2: words that make them feel seen right now, how are
12:04
Speaker 2: they feeling as they're listening to this?
12:07
Speaker 1: Overwhelmed. Getting into interaction, just social overthinking, not knowing what
12:11
Speaker 1: to do, not knowing what to feel. Underestimated. like people
12:15
Speaker 1: don't see you or the real potential that you have,
12:17
Speaker 1: a lack of confidence and fear. Afraid that if you
12:22
Speaker 1: are your true self or you try any of the
12:24
Speaker 1: things we're talking about, people won't like you. And I
12:27
Speaker 1: want to teach you that you can be yourself and
12:29
Speaker 1: you can be liked and you can find your people.
12:32
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean everyone's going to like you, but
12:34
Speaker 1: it means if you signal the right things, cues tell
12:36
Speaker 1: others how to treat you. If you signal the right cues,
12:39
Speaker 1: you will find your people.
12:41
Speaker 2: One of the things that I was sort of inferring
12:43
Speaker 2: from what you said is the importance of understanding your
12:46
Speaker 2: resting bitch face. That's like the term we use in
12:48
Speaker 2: the UK, resting bitch face, which is like when you're
12:51
Speaker 2: just listening or doing nothing. Like how does your face look? Yes.
12:54
Speaker 2: And you're telling me that's really, really important.
12:56
Speaker 1: It's real. So I call it resting bothered face because
12:59
Speaker 1: I have to be a resting bothered face. RBS, same thing.
13:02
Speaker 2: Okay.
13:03
Speaker 1: This is a real phenomenon, which is that all of
13:05
Speaker 1: us have different faces at rest. Now I want you
13:08
Speaker 1: to look at my face for a second. My face
13:11
Speaker 1: at rest, I'm going to rest it for a second.
13:13
Speaker 1: My mouth angles down and sort of an upside down U.
13:15
Speaker 1: So it looks like this. You see how these are
13:18
Speaker 1: going down?
13:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
13:20
Speaker 1: Are you laughing at my U?
13:21
Speaker 2: A little bit. Okay.
13:23
Speaker 1: So at rest, I look a little sad. Yeah. That
13:27
Speaker 1: is just my mouth at rest. Yours goes pretty straight across.
13:29
Speaker 2: I just, I just.
13:31
Speaker 1: You have a lot of hood. That's what that's called.
13:32
Speaker 2: I have a lot of hood.
13:33
Speaker 1: A lot of hood.
13:33
Speaker 2: Yes.
13:33
Speaker 1: This is hood. Yes.
13:34
Speaker 2: Yes.
13:35
Speaker 1: So that probably makes you, do people think you're angry
13:37
Speaker 1: or tired?
13:37
Speaker 2: Both. Both. Okay.
13:39
Speaker 1: People never call me angry. They call me sad. You
13:41
Speaker 1: need to look in the mirror and figure out what
13:43
Speaker 1: is the default of your face. If your mouth angles
13:45
Speaker 1: down into a frown, people are going to think you're sad.
13:47
Speaker 1: You're going to have to be counteracting that with your cues.
13:49
Speaker 1: If you have a lot of hood above your eyes
13:52
Speaker 1: or you have these two vertical lines that appear between
13:54
Speaker 1: your eyebrows, you actually don't have them. But if some
13:55
Speaker 1: of the people at rest even have those two lines,
13:57
Speaker 1: people are going to think you're angry or frustrated. If
14:00
Speaker 1: you have down eyes, so I don't know if you noticed,
14:02
Speaker 1: but I have added cat makeup to my eyes.
14:05
Speaker 2: Ah, yes.
14:05
Speaker 1: Yes, that actually makes me look less sad because also
14:08
Speaker 1: my eyes slope a little bit down at the end,
14:10
Speaker 1: which makes me look sad.
14:12
Speaker 2: Okay.
14:13
Speaker 1: So people often are like, are you okay? Are you tired?
14:15
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, that's just my face. So I have
14:19
Speaker 1: ways that I counteract it. One, I get to use makeup,
14:21
Speaker 1: which is a great thing. But second, I know that
14:24
Speaker 1: I need to make my face a little bit more up.
14:27
Speaker 1: So when I am interacting with someone, when I'm on video,
14:30
Speaker 1: when I'm on interview, I typically rest my face in
14:32
Speaker 1: an upward position. I've activated these muscles. So don't I
14:34
Speaker 1: look happier?
14:35
Speaker 2: You do, but have you got to consciously tell yourself
14:38
Speaker 2: to do that or do you just always remember?
14:40
Speaker 1: No, I have to consciously tell myself to do that. Now,
14:42
Speaker 1: I only need to do that with people with their
14:43
Speaker 1: first impression or when I'm trying to make a good impression.
14:46
Speaker 1: My team knows that I'm not sad, right? Like my team,
14:49
Speaker 1: they see me all the time. They see me without makeup.
14:50
Speaker 1: They know that I'm not sad. They know that's just
14:51
Speaker 1: my face. So here's what's critical. One, you should know
14:54
Speaker 1: what is your resting default. Are you looking sad, angry,
14:58
Speaker 1: or afraid? Oh, afraid I didn't do. So if you
15:00
Speaker 1: have– you actually have some.
15:02
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. Oh, you're joking.
15:03
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You have these lines.
15:05
Speaker 2: I just had someone laugh in the back. One of
15:07
Speaker 2: my team just laughed in the back.
15:08
Speaker 1: So you have them just right here, these light lines here.
15:11
Speaker 1: So when we're afraid, we go– we raise our eyebrows
15:15
Speaker 1: up and our– you can't see it because I have
15:17
Speaker 1: Botox on my forehead. But if you– yeah, there you go.
15:19
Speaker 1: There you go. That's for now. Open your eyes and
15:21
Speaker 1: go– That's afraid. So the more you have those lines
15:25
Speaker 1: and the whites of your eyes appear, like if you've
15:26
Speaker 1: ever seen someone kind of walk around like a deer
15:28
Speaker 1: in the headlights, they make you feel anxious. Like if
15:30
Speaker 1: I were to do my entire interview a little bit wide-eyed,
15:32
Speaker 1: you would not only feel anxious, but you wouldn't believe
15:34
Speaker 1: what I was saying. So you all should see if
15:35
Speaker 1: you have this default lines or if the whites of
15:38
Speaker 1: your eyes show. Look at your profile pictures. In your
15:41
Speaker 1: profile pictures, here are the three biggest mistakes people make. One,
15:44
Speaker 1: they're showing fear eyes.
15:45
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
15:48
Speaker 1: So people, you're signaling accidentally anxiety. So try to make
15:52
Speaker 1: sure you're not showing the upper whites. Second mistake you'll
15:55
Speaker 1: do is they make a contempt micro-expression. So that's a
15:59
Speaker 1: one-sided mouth raise. So just do a one-sided mouth raise
16:00
Speaker 1: for me. Does it make you kind of feel like, mm, better?
16:04
Speaker 1: Don't do it for too long. So if you do
16:05
Speaker 1: it at home, there's a facial feedback hypothesis. When you
16:08
Speaker 1: make these faces, it actually triggers the emotion. Just like
16:10
Speaker 1: when you have the emotion, it triggers the face. There's
16:12
Speaker 1: a loop that happens. So if people make the contempt expression,
16:17
Speaker 1: one-sided mouth raise, Not only do they look scornful, kind
16:20
Speaker 1: of disdained, they actually begin to feel better then and scornful.
16:24
Speaker 1: So do not do an asymmetrical smile in your profile picture.
16:27
Speaker 1: You are accidentally signaling negativity. The third biggest mistake you
16:31
Speaker 1: will make is they do an inauthentic smile in their picture.
16:36
Speaker 1: The only true indicator of happiness is when these cheek
16:39
Speaker 1: muscles are activated. Anyone can fake smile. This is what
16:41
Speaker 1: mine looks like. But you see people do it, right?
16:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do it.
16:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, and people know. I would rather you not.
16:50
Speaker 2: No, because I just don't have a good smile. What? Look.
16:54
Speaker 1: Am I going to say, no, it's horrible? That's not
16:59
Speaker 1: your real smile.
16:59
Speaker 2: I literally have to do this when I take a face.
17:03
Speaker 2: That's my smile. I can't do the teeth thing. What
17:06
Speaker 2: am I going to do?
17:07
Speaker 1: Well, you can smile without your teeth as long as
17:08
Speaker 1: it hits your upper cheek muscle. So just try this
17:10
Speaker 1: for me. Put your pen or your finger in between
17:12
Speaker 1: your mouth like this. And smile as high as you
17:14
Speaker 1: can go. Oh, that's better. That reaches all the way
17:17
Speaker 1: up into your eyes.
17:18
Speaker 2: Do you see? Oh, that's not.
17:20
Speaker 1: That looks so much better. Okay. If you can activate
17:23
Speaker 1: these muscles in your profile picture, you don't have to
17:25
Speaker 1: walk around like that. But if you can activate, not
17:27
Speaker 1: the fear, not the fear, just here, just here. Okay.
17:31
Speaker 1: If you can activate these muscles in your profile picture,
17:33
Speaker 1: it shows authentic happiness or don't smile at all. I
17:36
Speaker 1: hate the advice. Just smile more. Fake smiles do not work. Dr.
17:42
Speaker 1: Barbara Wild studied this. She took pictures of people thinking
17:45
Speaker 1: of something they were authentically happy about, took a picture
17:47
Speaker 1: of them smiling. Then she told them to fake smile
17:50
Speaker 1: and took a picture of them. On the surface, you
17:51
Speaker 1: really couldn't tell the difference between the two smiles. They
17:53
Speaker 1: looked very similar. But she had participants take mood tests.
17:58
Speaker 1: Then look at one picture or the other, group A,
18:00
Speaker 1: group B. People who saw the positive picture had an
18:04
Speaker 1: improved mood. They caught the happiness from the photos. People
18:08
Speaker 1: who looked at the fake smile had no mood change.
18:11
Speaker 1: This means I would rather you have no smile at
18:13
Speaker 1: all or be neutral than fake smile. But if you
18:16
Speaker 1: can smile in your picture, it is so great for
18:18
Speaker 1: authentic happiness.
18:20
Speaker 2: It sounds like it might be quite exhausting for some
18:23
Speaker 2: people because I think some people, although they're happy, they
18:26
Speaker 2: feel good, they're nice people, they do have that resting
18:30
Speaker 2: bothered face, I think you called it. Mm-hmm. And there's
18:33
Speaker 2: other people that I know that just kind of walk
18:34
Speaker 2: through life with this like resting smile. Yeah. Like we
18:37
Speaker 2: can all think of that person that's just like always happy. Yeah.
18:40
Speaker 2: And then there's these other people who are like objectively
18:42
Speaker 2: happy too, but they just have that resting bothered face.
18:44
Speaker 2: So it feels like life is going to be more
18:45
Speaker 2: exhausting for those people.
18:47
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's about choosing your heart, right?
18:50
Speaker 1: It is hard. It is exhausting for me to show
18:52
Speaker 1: up to a meeting when I'm in a good mood
18:54
Speaker 1: and have someone be like, are you sad and tired?
18:56
Speaker 1: Are you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. I find that exhausting.
19:01
Speaker 1: Is it also a little exhausting to make sure that
19:03
Speaker 1: in my first impression, I'm being a little bit more
19:05
Speaker 1: up with my face, open eyes wide and open mouth?
19:08
Speaker 1: A little less exhausting than that. So I think you
19:10
Speaker 1: have to choose what are the cues you're going to
19:12
Speaker 1: purposefully add. There are 97 cues. I've narrowed it down
19:15
Speaker 1: to 97 that I think are the most important. You
19:17
Speaker 1: get to make your own recipe. You don't have to
19:19
Speaker 1: do all the cues. If smiling is not your thing,
19:22
Speaker 1: smiling is not essential for being charismatic. When we talk
19:26
Speaker 1: about being charismatic, it's about being warm and competent. And
19:29
Speaker 1: you have 97 cues to choose from to make that
19:32
Speaker 1: warmth and competence recipe. And so you don't have to
19:34
Speaker 1: be a bubbly extrovert to be charismatic. You can be
19:37
Speaker 1: a quiet, powerful introvert. You can be a compassionate, empathetic healer.
19:41
Speaker 1: Those look different. And so I think it's less exhausting
19:45
Speaker 1: to find your recipe and to use those cues a lot.
19:48
Speaker 1: there's certain cues in my book that i teach that
19:49
Speaker 1: i don't use they just don't feel natural to me
19:52
Speaker 1: but there are other cues where i'm like i really.
19:55
Speaker 2: Like this has anyone ever done any really compelling studies
19:57
Speaker 2: on this idea of resting bitch face or resting bothered
19:59
Speaker 2: face as you call.
19:59
Speaker 1: It there is research on resting bothered face and there
20:02
Speaker 1: are certain people who when people see pictures of their
20:06
Speaker 1: face at rest they assume a mood change In other words,
20:09
Speaker 1: when there are certain people at rest, where you look
20:11
Speaker 1: at them, they look neutral. But there are a certain
20:13
Speaker 1: percent of the population, when you look at them, they
20:14
Speaker 1: look angry, sad, or afraid. So it's real.
20:17
Speaker 2: And there's certain people you look at and they look
20:19
Speaker 2: happy and make you happy.
20:20
Speaker 1: Very few people have happy resting face, though. You either
20:23
Speaker 1: look neutral or bothered.
20:25
Speaker 2: So you said you were a recovering awkward person. Yes.
20:28
Speaker 2: Take me into what you were like. Oh, goodness. And
20:30
Speaker 2: what do you mean when you say awkward person?
20:32
Speaker 1: I really wanted to go it alone. I was really
20:34
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by people and interactions. I didn't know what to
20:37
Speaker 1: do with my hands. I didn't know what to say.
20:39
Speaker 1: I felt like I missed a memo that everyone got
20:42
Speaker 1: on conversation. I always felt like I was saying the
20:45
Speaker 1: wrong things. I had all these awkward silences. And then
20:48
Speaker 1: what would happen is I would try to overcompensate by
20:51
Speaker 1: sharing a ridiculous story or talking too much or completely
20:53
Speaker 1: shutting down. And I kind of like wavered between completely
20:57
Speaker 1: shutting down and being overwhelmed and talking too much and
21:00
Speaker 1: saying too much and just verbal vomiting over everyone. And
21:04
Speaker 1: so I shut down. And in college, especially, I just
21:07
Speaker 1: felt so left out. I just felt so lonely. And
21:10
Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone watching is feeling lonely. I
21:14
Speaker 1: thought it was all my fault. I was like, I
21:16
Speaker 1: missed the memo. I don't know how to have conversations.
21:19
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to have friends. That's what
21:22
Speaker 1: it felt like, that I desperately wanted to make connections,
21:26
Speaker 1: but I had no idea how to level up a
21:29
Speaker 1: new person to a friendship. I had no idea how
21:33
Speaker 1: that path happened. I had no idea how to have
21:35
Speaker 1: a conversation with someone, share something real, and then have
21:38
Speaker 1: a real interaction back. And so it was really lonely
21:42
Speaker 1: and overwhelming.
21:43
Speaker 2: And what was the catalyst for you to go on
21:45
Speaker 2: this journey?
21:46
Speaker 1: I was in college and there was a group paper assigned.
21:51
Speaker 1: And you had like five people and everyone had to
21:53
Speaker 1: do five pages. And I went to the professor and
21:55
Speaker 1: I said, I will write double the amount of pages
21:58
Speaker 1: if I can work by myself. And he was like, Vanessa,
22:02
Speaker 1: The point of the paper is not the paper. It's
22:05
Speaker 1: working with the people. And I was like, and I
22:08
Speaker 1: started to cry in his office. I was like, that student.
22:10
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know how. And he was like, Vanessa,
22:14
Speaker 1: you're very good at science. You're very good at breaking
22:18
Speaker 1: things down. What if you studied for people like you
22:20
Speaker 1: study for chemistry? That was like an aha moment for me.
22:25
Speaker 1: He said, why don't you study good conversation? Why don't
22:28
Speaker 1: you study the popular kids? Why don't you look at
22:30
Speaker 1: what are they doing in conversation that's working? study it
22:33
Speaker 1: like it's a science. Hence my brand was called Science
22:37
Speaker 1: of People. That's when I realized, okay, it didn't come
22:39
Speaker 1: naturally to me, but maybe there's research on actual things
22:43
Speaker 1: I can do with my body, things I can do.
22:45
Speaker 1: I can say verbally questions that work that will help
22:48
Speaker 1: me learn this the other way, turning soft skills into
22:51
Speaker 1: hard skills. That's when I started creating my first conversational blueprints.
22:54
Speaker 1: That's when I started creating my conversation formula and it
22:57
Speaker 1: started to work. I started to try out these kind
23:00
Speaker 1: of tiny experiments. And I actually started to feel like myself,
23:04
Speaker 1: make more friends. It was tools. I had to use
23:07
Speaker 1: tools to be able to connect because it did not
23:09
Speaker 1: come naturally to me.
23:11
Speaker 2: Was it fixed from day one? No. So it was
23:14
Speaker 2: a journey?
23:15
Speaker 1: It was a real journey.
23:16
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's important because often people think, you know,
23:19
Speaker 2: read the book, get the tips and tricks and you're
23:21
Speaker 2: changed and you're fixed. You talk about, I think, later
23:24
Speaker 2: in your life where you enter a dinner party and
23:26
Speaker 2: your husband is was there with you and you went
23:29
Speaker 2: home and told him that you thought everyone was angry
23:30
Speaker 2: at you.
23:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:32
Speaker 2: When was that?
23:33
Speaker 1: That was probably maybe four or five years later. So
23:36
Speaker 1: I started mostly with conversation. That was sort of my
23:40
Speaker 1: first tool I needed. Questions I wanted to ask, first impressions,
23:44
Speaker 1: and how to close a conversation very practically. I also
23:47
Speaker 1: realized about five years later, I married my college sweetheart.
23:50
Speaker 1: So I've been with my husband for a long time.
23:52
Speaker 1: And he said to me, you always think everyone's angry
23:55
Speaker 1: at you. I was like, isn't everyone angry at me?
23:59
Speaker 1: And I realized there are certain people who misinterpret neutral
24:03
Speaker 1: facial expressions as negative. I have this problem. So I
24:07
Speaker 1: will see a neutral expression on someone and assume they
24:10
Speaker 1: are angry or afraid or stressed or don't like me.
24:13
Speaker 1: And that was creating this really bad loop because when
24:16
Speaker 1: you think someone doesn't like you, you shut down and
24:18
Speaker 1: become more unlikable. There was a study I discovered right
24:21
Speaker 1: around this time. This is done by Dr. Van Sloan.
24:26
Speaker 1: He wanted to know what makes popular kids popular. Very
24:29
Speaker 1: clever study. He studied thousands of high school students across
24:32
Speaker 1: a variety of high schools looking for patterns. Why is
24:35
Speaker 1: it that some kids across these grades and ages are
24:37
Speaker 1: really popular? He had all the kids ranked across all
24:40
Speaker 1: these schools. He had them looked at traits. And then
24:42
Speaker 1: he guessed what made the popular kids popular. Were they
24:45
Speaker 1: more athletic? Were they more attractive? Were they funnier? Were
24:48
Speaker 1: they smarter? What was it? Can you guess what it was? Hmm.
24:57
Speaker 2: So I'm just basing this on the kids that were
24:59
Speaker 2: popular in my school. They were funnier. They were self-deprecating
25:04
Speaker 2: to some degree. They were good at– they were remotely
25:08
Speaker 2: good at some sports maybe. They were funny, happy. I
25:13
Speaker 2: don't know.
25:14
Speaker 1: Okay. So he found that the most popular kids– that
25:18
Speaker 1: one single variable that was held true across all the
25:21
Speaker 1: different students– was the most popular kids had the longest
25:24
Speaker 1: list of people they liked. So when he asked, one
25:28
Speaker 1: of the questions of the survey was, who do you like?
25:31
Speaker 1: They had the longest lists. And when he looked at
25:34
Speaker 1: their day-to-day, they had micro moments of liking. They would
25:38
Speaker 1: go down the hallway and be like, hey, Chad. Hey, Chelsea. Hey, Sarah.
25:44
Speaker 1: They liked so many people, and that in turn made
25:47
Speaker 1: them more likable. This showed me that being likable is
25:51
Speaker 1: in our control. Being likable means you have to be
25:55
Speaker 1: first liker. If you set out to like more people,
25:58
Speaker 1: you become more likable. And that was a really big
26:02
Speaker 1: shift for me because for so long, I thought it
26:04
Speaker 1: was all about me. It's a very selfish way to be, right?
26:06
Speaker 1: I was like, I better be impressive. I better be funny.
26:09
Speaker 1: But actually, what makes us likable is just liking as
26:12
Speaker 1: many people as possible.
26:13
Speaker 2: I was laughing as you were speaking because I was
26:15
Speaker 2: just playing out all the different sort of personas of
26:17
Speaker 2: people listening right now.
26:18
Speaker 1: Yeah.
26:18
Speaker 2: And I just had this one persona of the person
26:20
Speaker 2: sat at home. Who just like slumped over because they
26:22
Speaker 2: realized they hate everybody. When you said that, they were
26:25
Speaker 2: just like, fuck, I hate everybody.
26:27
Speaker 1: Look, I get it. I get it.
26:28
Speaker 2: I get it.
26:29
Speaker 1: And I also think that if you hate everyone, if
26:31
Speaker 1: that's you, let me try to convince you for a second.
26:34
Speaker 1: It could be because you're asking the wrong questions. I
26:37
Speaker 1: think I fell into that camp. I don't need people.
26:40
Speaker 1: I don't like people. I was very much in that
26:42
Speaker 1: camp for the first couple of years. Why? Why? because
26:45
Speaker 1: I had terrible interactions and terrible conversations.
26:47
Speaker 2: It was awkward.
26:48
Speaker 1: Of course I didn't like people, but I was also
26:50
Speaker 1: asking the wrong questions and I was telling the wrong stories.
26:52
Speaker 1: I was trying to be impressive. The best way to
26:55
Speaker 1: be impressive, to be likable, is to help people impress you,
26:59
Speaker 1: is to make them feel so liked that they begin
27:02
Speaker 1: to like you back. It's aggressively liking. So that means
27:06
Speaker 1: that when you're with someone, you should be constantly giving
27:08
Speaker 1: them verbal and nonverbal assurances of how much you want
27:11
Speaker 1: to like them. Watch them change. Watch your relationships transform.
27:17
Speaker 1: So I make it a policy of aggressively liking people.
27:20
Speaker 1: So I have three magic phrases for likability. Can I
27:23
Speaker 1: teach them to you?
27:24
Speaker 2: Please.
27:25
Speaker 1: Okay. So I want you to use these as many
27:26
Speaker 1: times as you can. Three magic phrases for likability. One,
27:29
Speaker 1: I was just thinking of you. Okay. So here's how
27:32
Speaker 1: you use this authentically, right? You think of a lot
27:35
Speaker 1: of people in your life all the time. Yeah. If
27:37
Speaker 1: you are thinking of someone and you can text them,
27:40
Speaker 1: text them, I was just thinking of you. How are you?
27:42
Speaker 1: I was just thinking of you, how'd that project go?
27:44
Speaker 1: I was just thinking of you, it has been a
27:45
Speaker 1: while since we talked. Or, and better, you see a movie,
27:48
Speaker 1: you see a documentary, you see a matcha latte, you
27:51
Speaker 1: see a mug, you see a ceramic candle, and you're like, oh,
27:54
Speaker 1: this made me think of you. So my text messages,
27:57
Speaker 1: my conversations are full of actual moments where I was
28:00
Speaker 1: triggered to think of that person, actually, that this thing
28:04
Speaker 1: made me think of you. Or I was just thinking
28:06
Speaker 1: of you, I wanted to ask you about. If you
28:09
Speaker 1: don't think of someone, they're not a person you need
28:11
Speaker 1: to have in your life.
28:12
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's number one. I want to pause on
28:14
Speaker 2: number one because I've got some sort of questions to
28:16
Speaker 2: ask here. It sounds exhausting. It sounds like it's going
28:19
Speaker 2: to cost me a lot of time that I don't
28:21
Speaker 2: necessarily have. And this is just my surface level reaction was,
28:24
Speaker 2: oh God, another job. Do you know what I mean?
28:29
Speaker 2: If I've got to set aside an hour to text
28:31
Speaker 2: everyone I know and go, I was just thinking of you,
28:33
Speaker 2: it's going to be exhausting. I've got like six friends
28:35
Speaker 2: and I've got my partner and I've got my family
28:37
Speaker 2: and my team. It's a lot.
28:40
Speaker 1: Then just them. And also, it doesn't take an hour
28:42
Speaker 1: when you're like, oh, stainless steel mug. This made me
28:45
Speaker 1: think of you.
28:46
Speaker 2: Right?
28:46
Speaker 1: Like, you're only doing it when it's actually naturally occurring
28:49
Speaker 1: to you. I don't want you to sit at your
28:51
Speaker 1: desk and be like, I'm due for some I was
28:53
Speaker 1: just thinking of you's. No, this happens in the wild. Okay.
28:56
Speaker 1: You're watching a documentary. You're at a restaurant. You're on
28:59
Speaker 1: the bus. You're like, oh, that reminds me of this person.
29:02
Speaker 1: Quick text. That is less work than missing an old
29:06
Speaker 1: friend and not knowing what to say. It is less
29:09
Speaker 1: work to see something in real life or have a
29:11
Speaker 1: thought of like, I wonder how Sarah is. And reaching
29:14
Speaker 1: out to them then, I miss Sarah, but I'm not
29:17
Speaker 1: going to reach out to her. It's also less work
29:20
Speaker 1: when you see someone and you haven't seen them in
29:21
Speaker 1: a while or they're a friend of a friend or
29:23
Speaker 1: they're that casual coworker relationship. And you're like, what do
29:26
Speaker 1: I say? I think it's a lot of work to
29:28
Speaker 1: go up to that person and be like, how was
29:30
Speaker 1: your weekend? I think that's a lot of work. I
29:33
Speaker 1: think boring small talk is a lot of work. If
29:35
Speaker 1: you actually thought of them to say, you know, I
29:38
Speaker 1: know you love dolphins. I saw this dolphin. documentary on Netflix.
29:40
Speaker 1: Have you seen it? I was just thinking of you.
29:42
Speaker 1: Made me think of you.
29:43
Speaker 2: I got another concern. So if I start firing out
29:46
Speaker 2: these WhatsApp messages telling people what I'm thinking of them,
29:49
Speaker 2: it's just going to be opening up loads of conversations
29:51
Speaker 2: that I then have to deal with. Do you know
29:53
Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, it's going to be like, hey,
29:54
Speaker 2: I was just thinking of you. And then they reply.
29:55
Speaker 2: They go, oh, how are you? And I go, I'm good, thanks.
29:58
Speaker 2: And then they go, I go, how are you? They go,
29:59
Speaker 2: I'm good, thanks. And then, do you know what I mean?
30:03
Speaker 1: I don't believe in asking, how are you? That's a
30:06
Speaker 1: whole other thing. This is a good test. If you
30:09
Speaker 1: are worried that they're going to start a conversation that's
30:11
Speaker 1: going to bore you and feel like work, they're not
30:14
Speaker 1: a close friend.
30:15
Speaker 2: So don't text them. Okay.
30:17
Speaker 1: It's a very good test. If there's someone where you're like,
30:20
Speaker 1: I don't really want to hear how they are. This
30:23
Speaker 1: is for the people who you want to level up with.
30:26
Speaker 1: There are three levels of intimacy. People who you kind
30:30
Speaker 1: of know, you know their personal, you know their general traits,
30:32
Speaker 1: where they work, where they live, what they do, that's it.
30:35
Speaker 1: You don't want to go any deeper with them. Level
30:37
Speaker 1: two people are people where they know your personal concerns.
30:39
Speaker 1: You know their goals, their motivations, their personality traits, their worries.
30:43
Speaker 1: Those are people you want to invest in. And there's
30:45
Speaker 1: a last level, which is the most deep level, which
30:47
Speaker 1: is called self-narrative, which is the story we tell ourselves
30:49
Speaker 1: about ourselves. If you categorize your relationships, another activity I
30:53
Speaker 1: love for my students to do is make those three
30:55
Speaker 1: levels on a piece of paper. Write down the 20
30:58
Speaker 1: people you can think of, the top 20 people you
31:00
Speaker 1: spend the most time with, where they fall.
31:02
Speaker 2: So we have acquaintances, we have.
31:04
Speaker 1: Acquaintances who just kind of know where you're from, what
31:06
Speaker 1: do you do, the basics.
31:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
31:09
Speaker 1: And by the way, some of the people who you're
31:10
Speaker 1: close with, you might not be deep with.
31:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, true. Right?
31:14
Speaker 1: Level two, personal concerns. Could they tell you what is your, Stephen,
31:18
Speaker 1: biggest goal right now?
31:19
Speaker 2: Okay. And then the middle layer, I didn't understand.
31:21
Speaker 1: That's the middle layer. That's the middle layer. So it's
31:23
Speaker 1: general traits, personal concerns, self-narrative.
31:26
Speaker 2: What's self-narrative?
31:27
Speaker 1: So this is what my next book is about. I'm
31:29
Speaker 1: doing research on it right now. Self-narrative is the story
31:31
Speaker 1: you tell yourself about yourself.
31:33
Speaker 2: So is this a group of people?
31:35
Speaker 1: It's the levels of intimacy you are with someone. So
31:37
Speaker 1: would your partner know the story you tell yourself about yourself?
31:42
Speaker 1: I'll give you an example.
31:43
Speaker 2: 100% she would.
31:44
Speaker 1: I think so. So I think that there are basically
31:48
Speaker 1: three main types of narratives, and you should know what
31:51
Speaker 1: these are for the closest people in your life. Maybe
31:52
Speaker 1: only two or three, and you should also know what
31:54
Speaker 1: it is for yourself. The best one is a hero narrative.
31:57
Speaker 1: This is, I've worked really hard, I've had some challenges
32:01
Speaker 1: and mistakes, but I've overcome with hard work and smarts,
32:04
Speaker 1: and now I am where I am. Every version of
32:06
Speaker 1: their story, their career, their life, their relationships is that
32:10
Speaker 1: same narrative over and over again. Then there's what I
32:13
Speaker 1: think is called the healer narrative. Again, I'm doing research
32:15
Speaker 1: on this for my next book. The healer narrative, their
32:18
Speaker 1: story is all about helping others. They typically are in
32:21
Speaker 1: careers of service, of helping others, physical therapists, nurses, healthcare.
32:27
Speaker 1: Their story is, how can I be more helpful? They
32:29
Speaker 1: tend to have a problem, though, if you're in a
32:31
Speaker 1: relationship with a healer, is they always put other people's
32:33
Speaker 1: needs before themselves.
32:36
Speaker 2: Do they have some kind of historic trauma?
32:38
Speaker 1: They can. And a lot of the times they were
32:40
Speaker 1: put in a position of caretaking too early. Like they
32:44
Speaker 1: were told that you're of value if you can caretake.
32:47
Speaker 1: You're of value if you put your needs last. So
32:49
Speaker 1: they tend to be people pleasers. They tend to say
32:51
Speaker 1: yes to everything. You have to be careful if you
32:53
Speaker 1: work with a healer because they're great to work with.
32:55
Speaker 1: They help, help, help. but they say yes to too much.
32:58
Speaker 1: So a healer is the middle one. The last one
33:00
Speaker 1: is victim narrative. Victim narrative, no matter what, personal, professional,
33:05
Speaker 1: love life, taxes, they have the same narrative. I experienced
33:09
Speaker 1: challenges and mistakes and I didn't overcome. No matter how
33:12
Speaker 1: hard I work, no matter how smart I am, the
33:14
Speaker 1: world is against me. So a question I ask people
33:17
Speaker 1: to begin to uncover their self-narratives. Do you feel lucky?
33:21
Speaker 1: Do you feel lucky?
33:22
Speaker 2: I feel very lucky.
33:23
Speaker 1: I also feel very lucky.
33:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:25
Speaker 1: People who have a resounding yes to I feel lucky
33:27
Speaker 1: are more likely heroes or healers. People who say, I
33:32
Speaker 1: don't feel lucky, I feel very unlucky, are typically victims. Dr.
33:35
Speaker 1: Richard Wiseman did a study. He asked people to perceive
33:39
Speaker 1: their own luck. How lucky do you feel? Then he
33:42
Speaker 1: gave them a challenge. He gave them a newspaper. And
33:44
Speaker 1: he said, I want you to count the amount of
33:45
Speaker 1: images in this newspaper. They sat with the newspaper and
33:48
Speaker 1: they counted all the images, but there was a trick.
33:50
Speaker 1: There's always a trick in these studies. On the second
33:52
Speaker 1: page of the newspaper, in big print, it said, stop counting.
33:56
Speaker 1: There are 42 images in this newspaper. Almost all of
34:00
Speaker 1: the people who perceived themselves as lucky saw the ad,
34:03
Speaker 1: closed the paper, and gave it back. So there are
34:05
Speaker 1: 42 images. Almost none of the unlucky people did. The
34:10
Speaker 1: unlucky people missed the ad and kept counting, spent a
34:13
Speaker 1: lot of time, and made more mistakes. This means that
34:16
Speaker 1: if you think of yourself as lucky, you literally see
34:20
Speaker 1: more opportunities. If you think of yourself as unlucky, you
34:23
Speaker 1: miss them.
34:25
Speaker 2: Is it possible to change how you see yourself?
34:27
Speaker 1: I do believe in a growth mindset. So I do
34:30
Speaker 1: believe that if this is resonating with you and you're like, uh-oh,
34:34
Speaker 1: I feel unlucky. I might have this victim self-narrative. I
34:37
Speaker 1: do believe it's possible to change your perception of yourself.
34:42
Speaker 1: And that's starting with small moments of heroism. I think
34:46
Speaker 1: that changing your people skills, saying I don't like people
34:49
Speaker 1: and saying I'm going to find a way to like people,
34:51
Speaker 1: saying I'm bad at conversation, I'm going to find a
34:53
Speaker 1: way to be good at conversation. To say I'm an
34:54
Speaker 1: awkward person, no, I'm a recovering awkward person. If we
34:57
Speaker 1: can begin to take those tiny experiments and change them
35:00
Speaker 1: one by one, we begin to have small moments of
35:02
Speaker 1: heroism and that's how we change our self-narrative.
35:05
Speaker 2: As an employer, I think about this a lot, these
35:07
Speaker 2: sort of verbal and nonverbal cues. I actually had an
35:09
Speaker 2: interview some time ago and I think I came out
35:12
Speaker 2: of the interview and I think Objectively, the person might
35:15
Speaker 2: have been qualified, but there was something about their energy
35:19
Speaker 2: or cues or something that signaled something else to me
35:22
Speaker 2: that they were an unhappy person or they were tired
35:26
Speaker 2: or they didn't really want to be here or something
35:28
Speaker 2: like that. Are there any studies that confirm that our
35:32
Speaker 2: hidden communication is driving our success in the working environment?
35:37
Speaker 1: Yes. So this study blew my mind. It's 58,000 working hours.
35:43
Speaker 1: over 11 different companies. So a huge amount of data.
35:47
Speaker 1: They wanted to know if low performers infect the people
35:51
Speaker 1: around them and if high performers infect the people around them.
35:55
Speaker 1: What they found was if you sit within 25 feet
35:58
Speaker 1: of a high performer, your own performance improves by 15%.
36:01
Speaker 1: Here's the kicker. If you sit within 25 feet of
36:07
Speaker 1: a low performer, your own performance decreases by 30%. This
36:13
Speaker 1: means that our negative emotions are more contagious, that if
36:16
Speaker 1: you're around people who are low performers, whatever that means
36:20
Speaker 1: to you, who have negative cues, who are feeling anxious
36:23
Speaker 1: or tired or low confident, you could catch those cues
36:25
Speaker 1: and that affects your own performance. This is why it
36:29
Speaker 1: is incredibly critical to invest in the five people who
36:32
Speaker 1: you spend the most time with. You want to make
36:34
Speaker 1: sure those five people are the cues you want to catch.
36:37
Speaker 1: Do you like the cues they're sending? Do they give
36:39
Speaker 1: you the right motivation, feelings? Do they make you feel liked?
36:43
Speaker 1: Do they make you a better version of yourself? There's
36:46
Speaker 1: just one more chemical aspect of this, which we have
36:49
Speaker 1: to do more research on. This is a very gross study,
36:53
Speaker 1: but it's one of my favorites. It's a little gross.
36:55
Speaker 1: You ready?
36:56
Speaker 2: Okay.
36:57
Speaker 1: So they brought people into their lab. They split them
36:59
Speaker 1: up into two different groups. And They made the first
37:02
Speaker 1: group wear a sweatsuit where they catch your sweat and
37:04
Speaker 1: run on the treadmill. So they sweat a lot on
37:05
Speaker 1: the treadmill. The second group, they wore sweatsuits and they
37:08
Speaker 1: took them skydiving for the first time. Both groups sweat
37:11
Speaker 1: a lot. Treadmill sweat and skydiving sweat. They took these
37:15
Speaker 1: sweat samples and they had unsuspecting participants go into fMRI
37:19
Speaker 1: machines and scan their brains. Then they gave them both
37:22
Speaker 1: sweat samples to smell. Poor these poor people, didn't know
37:26
Speaker 1: what they were smelling. They went, everyone who smelled the
37:29
Speaker 1: skydiving sweat had an activation in their own amygdala, their
37:33
Speaker 1: own fear response triggered. In other words, when they smelled
37:36
Speaker 1: fear sweat, they didn't know why they began to feel afraid.
37:40
Speaker 1: Everyone who smelled the treadmill sweat had no change at all.
37:44
Speaker 1: This means that, yes, we can talk about facial expressions
37:46
Speaker 1: and body language and vocal cues and words, but there's
37:49
Speaker 1: also something chemically happening with the people around us that
37:52
Speaker 1: we can literally smell fear and we catch it. And
37:56
Speaker 1: that is also why it's really important to follow our gut. Oh, dear.
38:00
Speaker 2: I was going to say, well, then we're all screwed,
38:01
Speaker 2: aren't we? We can't do anything because if we're giving
38:05
Speaker 2: off these chemicals which are impacting those around us, it
38:08
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if I smile and do the whole like.
38:10
Speaker 1: No, because I think intention is the backdoor into confidence.
38:15
Speaker 1: It's very hard to fake confidence. I don't believe in
38:17
Speaker 1: fake it till you make it. I don't really. But
38:19
Speaker 1: if I say I have a conversational tool for you
38:21
Speaker 1: that's going to make your conversations better, you become less nervous.
38:25
Speaker 1: You become more excited. You ask a better question. They
38:27
Speaker 1: give you a really good answer. You feel super charismatic.
38:30
Speaker 1: They feel really liked. You feel really likable. Oh, we
38:33
Speaker 1: have a good little cycle. So I think that intention,
38:36
Speaker 1: going in with really purposeful cues, helps you feel more
38:40
Speaker 1: confident and triggers these beautiful cycles.
38:42
Speaker 2: The cycle. Is this the cycle you're talking about? Yes.
38:45
Speaker 2: The cue cycle.
38:45
Speaker 1: The cue cycle, yes.
38:46
Speaker 2: I'll put it on the screen and in the description
38:48
Speaker 2: for anyone that wants to see it. But when I
38:50
Speaker 2: saw this, the reason I printed this off was because
38:52
Speaker 2: it really hit close to home. Because I'm someone that
38:54
Speaker 2: meets a lot of people and... when I meet people,
38:57
Speaker 2: there's on the very rare occasion, something about someone will
39:00
Speaker 2: just kind of throw my energy and it throws my
39:03
Speaker 2: energy to the point that I realize I'm then acting
39:05
Speaker 2: a little bit in terms of my interaction with them.
39:08
Speaker 2: And it's almost like I can't control it. Like something
39:09
Speaker 2: about the person has unnerved me or just made it.
39:12
Speaker 2: And it's nothing that I could consciously tell you, like
39:14
Speaker 2: say it was the way they shook my hand. Just
39:17
Speaker 2: something about them throws me into this different state. And
39:21
Speaker 2: when I saw this, I almost figured out Why? Because
39:24
Speaker 2: the first step in this queue, you explain, I mean,
39:26
Speaker 2: it's your queue cycle.
39:27
Speaker 1: Yes. Okay. So we often mistakenly think that we send
39:34
Speaker 1: a signal to someone else, they send a signal back
39:35
Speaker 1: to us, and that's it. We don't realize that there's
39:38
Speaker 1: a cycle happening within us, which is that if you
39:40
Speaker 1: send me a negative queue, I internalize it, and that
39:44
Speaker 1: changes the queues I'm sending back to you. Here's a
39:46
Speaker 1: very simple experiment that showed this. They put a participant
39:49
Speaker 1: in a room and they had an actor in the
39:52
Speaker 1: room flash them a social rejection cue. That could be
39:58
Speaker 1: an eye roll, a scoff, a distancing and blocking behavior.
40:02
Speaker 1: So the participant's in the room and this person across
40:05
Speaker 1: from them, they don't know it was an actor, sends
40:06
Speaker 1: them a social rejection cue. What they found was the
40:09
Speaker 1: moment that participant saw the social rejection cue, their own
40:14
Speaker 1: pupils dilated and their field of vision increased. This means
40:19
Speaker 1: that somebody saw, uh-oh, that person doesn't like me, and
40:23
Speaker 1: their body reacted to fight or flight. Does anyone else
40:26
Speaker 1: feel this way about me? Are there any escape routes
40:29
Speaker 1: for me? And that then changed what cues they sent
40:31
Speaker 1: back to that person. They were more anxious. They were
40:33
Speaker 1: more nervous. If you walk into a room with someone
40:36
Speaker 1: and you're feeling bad, you probably caught a cue. Here's
40:39
Speaker 1: the good news. You can stop the cue cycle from
40:42
Speaker 1: being negative. There's also positive cues, right? We can catch
40:45
Speaker 1: positive cues. That can be good for us. But we
40:47
Speaker 1: can stop the negative cycle if we label the cue
40:49
Speaker 1: we see.
40:50
Speaker 2: Dr.
40:50
Speaker 1: Matthew Lieberman at UCLA studied this very clearly. He put
40:53
Speaker 1: people in fMRI machines and he flashed them a fear microexpression,
40:56
Speaker 1: the one that you showed us earlier, with your eyes
40:59
Speaker 1: really wide. When people saw the fear microexpression, they caught
41:02
Speaker 1: the fear. They began to feel afraid and their amygdala
41:04
Speaker 1: lit up. But when he taught them say fear or
41:08
Speaker 1: think fear, he taught them the microexpression fear. It stopped
41:12
Speaker 1: activating their amygdala. Meaning if you know how to read
41:15
Speaker 1: the 97 cues and you see contempt or social rejection
41:18
Speaker 1: or a mouth shrug or a lip purse, all not
41:21
Speaker 1: great cues, you can in your head say, lip purse,
41:24
Speaker 1: I'm good. Or clocked, noted. That intel is actually empowering.
41:29
Speaker 1: So that backdoor into confidence is also, you can label it,
41:32
Speaker 1: name it, tame it, and you're in control of it.
41:35
Speaker 1: That is a much better way to interact and also
41:37
Speaker 1: can help you like people. For all my people who
41:39
Speaker 1: don't like people.
41:40
Speaker 2: Okay, so in those moments, I should, in my head,
41:42
Speaker 2: just say what I'm... Clocked. Labeled. Clocked.
41:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I say to myself. Or like, red flag.
41:48
Speaker 1: Or noted.
41:50
Speaker 2: You're particularly famous for a TED Talk that you did,
41:53
Speaker 2: which did very, very well. It was called You Are Contagious.
41:57
Speaker 2: And it really opened my eyes to the importance of
42:01
Speaker 2: hand gestures.
42:02
Speaker 1: Yes.
42:02
Speaker 2: Which I didn't really think were that important before. But
42:04
Speaker 2: it's funny because going through this election cycle... And obviously
42:07
Speaker 2: Trump has now been elected as the next president of
42:09
Speaker 2: the United States. He is someone in particular that uses
42:12
Speaker 2: a lot of hand gestures. And in your TED Talk,
42:14
Speaker 2: you make the case that hand gestures matter.
42:17
Speaker 1: Oh, so much. I think the hands are the windows
42:20
Speaker 1: into the soul. I think what we underestimate is the
42:24
Speaker 1: power of our gestures. Love it. Just love it. Just
42:26
Speaker 1: those jazz hands. Just those jazz hands. So here's, I'm
42:28
Speaker 1: going to do a little experiment with you. So I'm
42:30
Speaker 1: going to put my hands in my lap. I've been
42:31
Speaker 1: very careful to leave my hands on the table for
42:34
Speaker 1: the entire interview. That's on purpose. Now, Something funny happens
42:38
Speaker 1: in your brain when you can't see my hands. And
42:39
Speaker 1: the longer my hands are underneath the table, the more
42:42
Speaker 1: your amygdala will begin to fire. And the more distracted
42:44
Speaker 1: you become with, where are her hands? Why are her
42:47
Speaker 1: hands under the table? And then when I bring my
42:49
Speaker 1: hands back out again, your brain goes. And that is
42:53
Speaker 1: because hands show intention. And this makes sense from an
42:55
Speaker 1: evolutionary perspective. So if we go back to caveman days,
42:58
Speaker 1: if we were approached by a stranger caveman and they went, friend, friend, friend. Friend, friend, friend.
43:03
Speaker 1: We saw they weren't carrying a rock or a spear
43:05
Speaker 1: and they were probably a friend. In fact, when we go,
43:07
Speaker 1: so nice to meet you, we can see someone's hand,
43:08
Speaker 1: we know that they're literally not going to harm us.
43:11
Speaker 1: So our brain still keeps this mechanism that if we're
43:14
Speaker 1: on video and we can't see someone's hand or they
43:16
Speaker 1: walk into an office with their hands in their pockets
43:18
Speaker 1: or behind their back, we feel a little bit uneasy.
43:21
Speaker 1: So there's two things for this. First is the moment
43:24
Speaker 1: someone first sees you, you want to be friend, friend, friend.
43:26
Speaker 1: Good to see you. Oh, so nice to meet you.
43:28
Speaker 2: What put your hand up for people that can't see you?
43:30
Speaker 1: The moment I walk into a room... Hey, nice to
43:32
Speaker 1: see you. Even before I handshake, even an old friend,
43:34
Speaker 1: I'll be like, oh my gosh, so good to see you.
43:36
Speaker 1: On Zoom, morning.
43:37
Speaker 2: For people that can't see, she's basically putting her hand
43:40
Speaker 2: in the air.
43:41
Speaker 1: Which is like a little wave. A little wave. We
43:43
Speaker 1: love a palm. As humans, we love seeing someone's palm.
43:46
Speaker 1: There's something about it that makes us feel like, ah,
43:48
Speaker 1: they're literally open-palmed. So that's the first. In the first
43:51
Speaker 1: few seconds of someone seeing you, in person, on video,
43:54
Speaker 1: try to flash your palm. Very, very simply. Second, we
43:59
Speaker 1: understand competence in two ways. Very highly competent people know
44:04
Speaker 1: their content so well, they can speak to you on
44:07
Speaker 1: two tracks. They can speak to you verbally, but they
44:09
Speaker 1: also can speak to you with their hands. This is
44:11
Speaker 1: why we love picture books as kids. And so when
44:14
Speaker 1: someone is speaking, we're listening to their words. But second,
44:16
Speaker 1: we're looking, are their hands outlining their words? So for example,
44:21
Speaker 1: all the best TED Talks start the same way. And
44:23
Speaker 1: this is what got me my TED Talk is we
44:26
Speaker 1: studied all the TED Talks from 2010 looking for patterns.
44:30
Speaker 1: And my team and I coded every TED Talk we
44:33
Speaker 1: can find looking for differences between the most viral TED
44:35
Speaker 1: Talks and the least viral TED Talks. We found the
44:39
Speaker 1: most viral TED speakers used an average of 465 hand
44:45
Speaker 1: gestures in 18 minutes, whereas the least popular TED Talkers
44:49
Speaker 1: used an average of 271 gestures, so not quite half. Meaning,
44:56
Speaker 1: If someone walks on stage, here's a really good TED Talk.
44:57
Speaker 1: They all start this way. You ready? Today, I want
45:02
Speaker 1: to talk to you about a big idea. We're going
45:04
Speaker 1: to share three different things that are going to change
45:07
Speaker 1: your life. So for people listening, I was outlining with
45:10
Speaker 1: my hands along with my words. If I were to
45:13
Speaker 1: get on stage and say, today I have a really
45:15
Speaker 1: big idea, it's huge, and hold up my hands in
45:18
Speaker 1: a really small way, your brain is 12.5 times more
45:21
Speaker 1: likely to believe my gesture over my words. And so
45:25
Speaker 1: what we can do as speakers, as very highly charismatic speakers,
45:28
Speaker 1: is think about how can I outline, very basically, not
45:32
Speaker 1: modern dance, what I'm saying, or how can I emphasize
45:35
Speaker 1: things with my gestures? If something is big, show me.
45:37
Speaker 1: Is a beach ball big? Is it, what is this big?
45:41
Speaker 1: Donkey big? Is this a donkey? I don't even know. Yeah,
45:43
Speaker 1: most donkeys. A goat? A goat? This is a goat big.
45:46
Speaker 1: If you have something that's really small and no big deal,
45:49
Speaker 1: doing this actually helps you think that it's not a
45:51
Speaker 1: big deal. I'm making a little kind of dismissive gesture
45:53
Speaker 1: with my hand. This also works with emphasizing points you
45:57
Speaker 1: want people to remember. If you have three ideas, tell
45:59
Speaker 1: someone you have three ideas. It is very hard to
46:02
Speaker 1: lie with our gestures. For example, you want to do
46:03
Speaker 1: a little experiment with me? Sure. Okay, I want you
46:05
Speaker 1: to say five, but hold up the number three. Five. Hard, right?
46:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
46:12
Speaker 1: So it's really hard.
46:13
Speaker 2: I have to think about them separately.
46:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really hard. Our brain is not meant to
46:16
Speaker 1: lie with gesture, which is why humans pay so close
46:20
Speaker 1: attention to gestures. Because we're looking to see, are they congruent?
46:24
Speaker 1: it is so hard to be incongruent with their gestures.
46:26
Speaker 1: Liars typically use less gestures. So we're also drawn to
46:30
Speaker 1: people who are using gestures, who are congruent with their gestures,
46:33
Speaker 1: because it makes us feel like, oh, they know their
46:35
Speaker 1: stuff and they're being honest.
46:36
Speaker 2: So it made me reflect, how do we establish causation
46:39
Speaker 2: here in terms of these hand gestures? Could it be
46:41
Speaker 2: the case that the more confident TED speakers are doing
46:46
Speaker 2: more gestures because they're less nervous? So is it about nerves?
46:51
Speaker 2: And the less confident... More nervous TED speakers are doing
46:55
Speaker 2: less gestures just because they're self-soothing a lot and they're
46:58
Speaker 2: kind of closing off their body. Is confidence the thing here?
47:01
Speaker 2: Is it nerves?
47:03
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think it's about engagement. So
47:06
Speaker 1: I think most TED speakers, and I watch these TED Talks,
47:09
Speaker 1: they're all good. All of them are good. And some
47:11
Speaker 1: of them are experts in their fields. The difference is,
47:14
Speaker 1: do I want to watch their good? It is hard
47:17
Speaker 1: for me as a viewer to pay attention for 18
47:20
Speaker 1: minutes with someone who didn't use enough gestures. It was
47:23
Speaker 1: like physically hard for my brain to pay attention. I
47:25
Speaker 1: think those speakers, whether good or not, had over-rehearsed and
47:28
Speaker 1: rehearsed out their hand gestures or were holding a podium
47:32
Speaker 1: or were holding a clicker too hard. So I actually
47:34
Speaker 1: think that it's less to do with the speaker's nerves
47:37
Speaker 1: or confidence and it's more to do with are they
47:40
Speaker 1: going to let themselves use their hands to explain their
47:42
Speaker 1: points and that becomes more engaging.
47:44
Speaker 2: One of the things I've noticed on this podcast is
47:46
Speaker 2: people who are using their hands are more expressive. And
47:49
Speaker 2: if they're more expressive, there's likely to be more sort
47:51
Speaker 2: of intonations in their voice. And if there's more intonations,
47:53
Speaker 2: it's more engaging. And if it's more engaging, then it's
47:55
Speaker 2: more attentive for the algorithm. And if it's more attentive
47:57
Speaker 2: for the algorithm, it's suggested more. If it's suggested more,
47:59
Speaker 2: there's more views.
48:00
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes.
48:01
Speaker 2: So I would like to tell my guests, all the
48:03
Speaker 2: past and particularly future guests, that if you have more
48:08
Speaker 2: expression in what you're saying and more intonations in your voice,
48:11
Speaker 2: then Our show will grow.
48:14
Speaker 1: Okay. Let's talk about two things here. One is we
48:16
Speaker 1: did a test on my YouTube channel and found that
48:18
Speaker 1: if we used a thumbnail of me doing any hand gesture,
48:21
Speaker 1: it didn't even matter what it was. It could be this.
48:23
Speaker 1: It could be this. Any hand gesture, that got more clicks.
48:27
Speaker 1: People even in a thumbnail like to see the hand
48:29
Speaker 1: gesture even more than my crazy facial expressions. We tried both. So, yes,
48:33
Speaker 1: we are– because if you see a thumbnail of me,
48:36
Speaker 1: you know, holding up two, you're like, well, what two
48:38
Speaker 1: things is she talking about? What is it? So we
48:41
Speaker 1: like it. It shows competence. And the second thing is
48:44
Speaker 1: that vocal variety is an incredibly important aspect of charisma.
48:50
Speaker 1: We're talking about gestures, but there is a feedback loop here.
48:54
Speaker 1: If I were going to sit on my hands for
48:56
Speaker 1: this interview, you would notice my facial expression would get
48:58
Speaker 1: less charismatic. My vocals will be less charismatic. It's really
49:01
Speaker 1: hard to be charismatic without movement. Vocal variety is a
49:05
Speaker 1: critical aspect of both warmth and competence. That is because
49:08
Speaker 1: when we hear someone who's able to, for example, give
49:11
Speaker 1: us the TED Talk voice. So I'm going to give
49:13
Speaker 1: you the TED Talk voice. You ready? This point is
49:17
Speaker 1: going to change the way that we think about the world.
49:20
Speaker 1: And if we don't analyze this point, we will be
49:24
Speaker 1: in huge trouble. Like that is a voice that is
49:27
Speaker 1: telling you, ooh, this is important. You also hear that
49:30
Speaker 1: really good speakers will use like a numbers voice. So
49:32
Speaker 1: a numbers voice sounds like this. Did you know that
49:36
Speaker 1: 43% of humans all believe in the same thing? 43%.
49:40
Speaker 1: Like there's, and if you're telling a story, it changes again.
49:43
Speaker 1: So a story tone would go like this. You're never
49:46
Speaker 1: going to believe what happened to me. So last week
49:48
Speaker 1: I'm walking down the street and I saw this guy.
49:51
Speaker 1: It's a totally different vocal variety. That is a gift
49:54
Speaker 1: to your listener that makes you more engaging because they're
49:57
Speaker 1: able to clock up. We're doing a number now. Oh,
50:01
Speaker 1: We have a story now. Oh, this is an important point.
50:02
Speaker 1: I better write it down. Really good TED speakers are
50:05
Speaker 1: outlining their talk for you in many different ways. And
50:08
Speaker 1: that's the best speakers I see on stage.
50:10
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because in this podcast, we had quite
50:13
Speaker 2: a long conversation a couple of months ago about arms
50:16
Speaker 2: on the chair, the chair that you're in now. And
50:18
Speaker 2: it was just this observation we had when we first
50:20
Speaker 2: flew out here to New York. The chairs that we
50:21
Speaker 2: ordered were pretty similar to this, but they just happened
50:24
Speaker 2: to have arms on them. And what I noticed was
50:27
Speaker 2: that guests would lean and it would take out their arms.
50:31
Speaker 2: So it took out their arms and they became less
50:33
Speaker 2: expressive and the conversations were less interesting. Yes. So we've
50:36
Speaker 2: removed the arms again. Okay.
50:38
Speaker 1: So let's talk about this just very briefly.
50:39
Speaker 2: Yeah.
50:40
Speaker 1: I actually do recommend chairs with arms, not in this
50:43
Speaker 1: setup because look at the difference. So actually right before
50:47
Speaker 1: this interview, you asked me to scoot my chair in, right?
50:49
Speaker 1: Your amazing team asked me to scoot my chair in.
50:51
Speaker 1: Thank you for that because it makes it so that
50:53
Speaker 1: I want to put my hands up. If I were
50:55
Speaker 1: to be sitting farther back, I'm just going to lean
50:57
Speaker 1: back for a second. I would be tempted to put
50:58
Speaker 1: my hands in my lap.
50:59
Speaker 2: Yes.
51:00
Speaker 1: So the critical piece of this is you're having me
51:02
Speaker 1: scoot up to the table. It would be really hard
51:04
Speaker 1: if I had arms because then I would want to
51:07
Speaker 1: go like this and it would make me look like
51:08
Speaker 1: a duck.
51:08
Speaker 2: Yes. Right.
51:09
Speaker 1: So you want to use a chair with arms to
51:11
Speaker 1: be broader. It actually does broaden your arms out unless
51:14
Speaker 1: you're really close to the table and you can put
51:16
Speaker 1: your hands on the table. But it's amazing how the
51:18
Speaker 1: physical environment can change how we are perceived and how
51:22
Speaker 1: we move.
51:22
Speaker 2: But even we're very intentional about the sort of mirroring
51:26
Speaker 2: of our body language and just making sure that we're
51:28
Speaker 2: head on. Because this conversation is entirely different if we're
51:30
Speaker 2: side on. Very much. It's not going to be the same.
51:32
Speaker 1: Very much.
51:33
Speaker 2: And there's not going to be the same level of intimacy.
51:35
Speaker 2: We also thought a lot about how big the table was.
51:37
Speaker 2: This is quite a big table.
51:39
Speaker 1: What's the distance?
51:40
Speaker 2: I'm going to say it's about just shy of two meters.
51:42
Speaker 1: Wait, can you hold your arm out? Okay, so this
51:44
Speaker 1: is perfect distance. The perfect distance between two people having
51:47
Speaker 1: a good conversation is that we could shake hands if
51:50
Speaker 1: we wanted to. And that is because there are four
51:52
Speaker 1: different proxemic zones. So the fancy word for space is proxemics.
51:56
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have that beautiful graphic.
51:59
Speaker 2: I printed out this.
52:00
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, that's it.
52:00
Speaker 2: Yes.
52:01
Speaker 1: So there are four different space zones, and these are
52:03
Speaker 1: really good to know if you're trying to set yourself
52:04
Speaker 1: up for success. The public zone is about five to
52:08
Speaker 1: eight feet away. I don't know, not feet, but five
52:10
Speaker 1: to eight feet away. Then you have the social zone,
52:13
Speaker 1: which is where we like to socialize with people. That is,
52:16
Speaker 1: depending on who you ask, three to five feet away.
52:17
Speaker 1: Then there's the personal zone. That's our favorite zone. That
52:20
Speaker 1: is about arm's distance apart, right? So we could shake
52:22
Speaker 1: hands if we wanted to. That's where our best conversations happen.
52:25
Speaker 1: And then there's the intimate zone. A big mistake people
52:28
Speaker 1: make is they place their video camera too close to
52:31
Speaker 1: their face, which means they are accidentally signaling intimacy cues
52:35
Speaker 1: with their colleagues and their coworkers. Have you ever been
52:38
Speaker 1: on a Zoom with someone where their face is the
52:40
Speaker 1: entire camera?
52:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was on one earlier on.
52:42
Speaker 1: And you're like, please back up. And that is because
52:44
Speaker 1: your brain is going too close, even though they're across
52:46
Speaker 1: a camera. So what I would really recommend, measure the
52:49
Speaker 1: distance between your nose and your camera. It should be
52:52
Speaker 1: one arm length. So it should be the tip of
52:53
Speaker 1: your nose to the tip of your fingers or a
52:56
Speaker 1: foot and a half to three feet away. That is
52:58
Speaker 1: the ideal zone for having good conversation over Zoom.
53:01
Speaker 2: That's really interesting as well, because I was thinking about
53:03
Speaker 2: the conversation I had actually on the way here in
53:04
Speaker 2: the car with a colleague of mine, and they had
53:07
Speaker 2: called me on FaceTime. Now, the thing with FaceTime is
53:10
Speaker 2: it's going to be close.
53:11
Speaker 1: It's going to be close.
53:12
Speaker 2: And it did feel a little bit intimate.
53:13
Speaker 1: It does.
53:14
Speaker 2: Because they called me on FaceTime.
53:15
Speaker 1: Yes.
53:15
Speaker 2: Obviously, if I was on my laptop, they would call
53:18
Speaker 2: me on Zoom or something else, and there would be
53:20
Speaker 2: a meter.
53:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think that that's why we can sometimes,
53:24
Speaker 1: at least introverts, feel like don't FaceTime me. It's way
53:26
Speaker 1: too personal. It's because there's a setup there that it's
53:29
Speaker 1: actually accidentally tricking you into being in the intimate zone
53:32
Speaker 1: with someone. This is also why loud bars and nightclubs
53:35
Speaker 1: work so well for facilitating romantic relationships. What happens in
53:39
Speaker 1: a loud bar or a loud nightclub is you can't
53:41
Speaker 1: hear someone. So you go, what? And then you get
53:43
Speaker 1: a little bit closer. And all of a sudden, you're
53:45
Speaker 1: accidentally standing in someone's intimate zone, which then that cue
53:49
Speaker 1: cycle begins to kick in where you're like, Well, if
53:51
Speaker 1: I'm standing within a foot and a half from this person,
53:53
Speaker 1: maybe I should feel intimate with them, which then makes
53:55
Speaker 1: you lean more. It makes you want to touch more.
53:57
Speaker 1: That is why people go to bars and nightclubs to
54:00
Speaker 1: facilitate these romantic relationships. It's accidentally going into the intimate zone.
54:04
Speaker 2: When I was younger, I've said this a few times
54:06
Speaker 2: on the podcast before, but it feels very relevant. My brother,
54:09
Speaker 2: my older brother, Jason, he ordered this book called The
54:11
Speaker 2: Game by Neil Strauss. And he ordered it to university,
54:15
Speaker 2: but he accidentally put the wrong address. And so it
54:17
Speaker 2: came to home. This sounds like an elaborate story for me,
54:19
Speaker 2: like buying a pickup artist book. But it came to
54:21
Speaker 2: home and I read the book and it was my
54:22
Speaker 2: first time understanding that body language was A, important, but
54:25
Speaker 2: even something you could learn. And when I say body language,
54:29
Speaker 2: I mean everything. And it's interesting because now after reading
54:34
Speaker 2: your work, I actually think maybe what I should have
54:36
Speaker 2: been aiming at was how to be more charismatic. And
54:40
Speaker 2: you talk about these five science-based habits for being more charismatic. Yeah.
54:46
Speaker 2: I guess the first question is what is charisma?
54:48
Speaker 1: Yes.
54:49
Speaker 2: And then what are these five science-based habits that can
54:52
Speaker 2: make me more charismatic as a person? Like, how do
54:54
Speaker 2: I know if I'm charismatic?
54:56
Speaker 1: You are charismatic, but you lean higher on competence. So
54:59
Speaker 1: let's break it down, okay? So this is not my work.
55:02
Speaker 1: This is the work of Dr. Susan Fiske. This is
55:04
Speaker 1: an instrumental study. It's been repeated many times back in
55:07
Speaker 1: 2002 that found that to be charismatic, you have to
55:10
Speaker 1: be both highly warm and highly competent. Or more importantly,
55:14
Speaker 1: you have to signal high warmth and high competence. And
55:17
Speaker 1: this makes up 82% of impressions of people. Warmth, trust, likability, friendliness, competence, power, reliability, capability.
55:26
Speaker 1: So very highly charismatic people, you meet them, you see them,
55:29
Speaker 1: and they are signaling, you can trust me, you like me,
55:32
Speaker 1: and boy, am I reliable and competent at the very
55:34
Speaker 1: same time. So when I say you are charismatic, but
55:39
Speaker 1: you lean very high in competence, which means that people
55:41
Speaker 1: can see you as cold or stoic if you're not
55:44
Speaker 1: showing enough warmth cues. Hmm. Have you been told that? Intimidating?
55:49
Speaker 2: Indirectly. Indirectly, yeah. People are just going to say it
55:52
Speaker 2: to me and I'm joking. But no, I do get that.
55:54
Speaker 2: I think I have some degree of self-awareness as to
55:56
Speaker 2: how I come across. And I think how you described
55:59
Speaker 2: it is exactly how I come across.
56:00
Speaker 1: And that's not a bad thing, right? Like you get
56:02
Speaker 1: to pick your own recipe. Like I lean a little
56:04
Speaker 1: higher on the warm side. I'm also female. There are
56:06
Speaker 1: differences between men and women. So typically, not always, men
56:10
Speaker 1: default to higher in competence. Women are defaulted to higher
56:14
Speaker 1: in warmth. Typically, not always. This isn't a bad thing,
56:17
Speaker 1: but you should know that if you are trying to
56:19
Speaker 1: come across as warmer on your team, you're trying to
56:22
Speaker 1: inspire more collaboration, you're trying to make more friends, you
56:24
Speaker 1: want to dial up your warmth cues. If you're someone
56:27
Speaker 1: who's interrupted a lot, not taken seriously, People forget meeting you.
56:32
Speaker 1: You need to dial up competence. This is like a thermostat.
56:36
Speaker 1: You can dial up warmth cues and dial up competence cues,
56:38
Speaker 1: and this changes the way people treat you. So I
56:40
Speaker 1: have five power cues for competence, and I have five
56:43
Speaker 1: warm cues for warmth.
56:45
Speaker 2: We're going to go through all of those. Yes. I
56:47
Speaker 2: saw this wonderful graph, which kind of explains it, which
56:48
Speaker 2: I'll put on the screen for anyone that's watching. And
56:51
Speaker 2: this was really, really interesting. There's a danger zone. The
56:55
Speaker 2: danger zone, I'm guessing, is when you're low warmth and
56:57
Speaker 2: low competence.
56:58
Speaker 1: That's it. Those are those folks that are stoic. If
57:01
Speaker 1: you don't send enough warmth cues, if you don't send
57:05
Speaker 1: enough competence cues, people cannot trust you. They have trouble
57:08
Speaker 1: working with you. They have trouble talking to you. This
57:11
Speaker 1: is the curse of very smart people. Very smart people think,
57:14
Speaker 1: my ideas will stand alone. My book smarts are great.
57:18
Speaker 1: I don't need to communicate these cues. My ideas are enough.
57:22
Speaker 1: That's what happened to Jamie Siminoff in the tank. He
57:24
Speaker 1: did not show enough warmth or competence cues. He relied
57:27
Speaker 1: solely on his ideas and his numbers, and he could
57:29
Speaker 1: not get a deal. So people who want to be
57:32
Speaker 1: taken seriously, you have to show warmth and competence. The
57:34
Speaker 1: other problem with highly competent folks, and you lean higher
57:37
Speaker 1: in competence, this is for you too, which is directly
57:40
Speaker 1: from the research. Too much competence without enough warmth leaves
57:44
Speaker 1: people feeling suspicious. So no matter how competent you are,
57:48
Speaker 1: no matter how good your ideas are, if you are
57:50
Speaker 1: not showcasing that with warmth, People are skeptical of you.
57:55
Speaker 1: And this is what happens with a lot of my
57:56
Speaker 1: students is they're like, people don't trust me. They don't
57:59
Speaker 1: believe my ideas. They're skeptical. I get pushback or I
58:03
Speaker 1: do sales trainings. They can't close. You'll push back on
58:07
Speaker 1: their numbers. And that is because some part of them
58:09
Speaker 1: is saying, I hear your competence, but you're not giving
58:11
Speaker 1: me enough warmth.
58:12
Speaker 2: And you'd be too warm.
58:14
Speaker 1: You can be absolutely too warm. You can be too
58:15
Speaker 1: warm and too competent. Too warm. You know what that
58:17
Speaker 1: looks like? That's too warm.
58:22
Speaker 2: Ah, okay. Okay?
58:23
Speaker 1: Too warm is, so we'll talk about the five warmth cues.
58:26
Speaker 1: Too much of any cue is dangerous, right? So too
58:30
Speaker 1: much nodding, too much laughing, too much vocalizations. Those are
58:35
Speaker 1: all too warm, and they make us think this person
58:37
Speaker 1: is a bimbo or a ditz or not competent. That's
58:41
Speaker 1: what happens. We have too much warmth. It takes away
58:43
Speaker 1: from our competence.
58:44
Speaker 2: Where should we start?
58:46
Speaker 1: Let's start with the power cues.
58:47
Speaker 2: Okay, the power cues. So this is competence.
58:48
Speaker 1: Yes, power cues. Let me get some more power cues.
58:51
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
58:52
Speaker 1: Okay, so we talked about the importance of hand gestures.
58:55
Speaker 1: There is a very good competent hand gesture, which everyone
58:58
Speaker 1: should know if you want to be perceived as higher
58:59
Speaker 1: in competence. It's called the steeple.
59:01
Speaker 2: Oh, this.
59:02
Speaker 1: Oh, yes. It's on the cover of my book if
59:03
Speaker 1: you want to see it. Yes, this is when your
59:05
Speaker 1: hands look like a little steeple. They're kind of relaxed open.
59:08
Speaker 2: It's a triangle for anyone It's kind of like a triangle.
59:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, a triangle. It's a power pose for the hands.
59:11
Speaker 2: Why?
59:12
Speaker 1: If you were doing this pose, you're showing I'm not
59:14
Speaker 1: hiding anything from you. You can still see my palms,
59:16
Speaker 1: but I am very relaxed and poised enough so that
59:21
Speaker 1: I'm keeping my hands together. Now, be careful. Don't drum.
59:23
Speaker 1: This is evil fingers.
59:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.
59:25
Speaker 1: This is Mr. Burns, for those of you who know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
59:28
Speaker 1: So it's a nice, still steeple. They rated hand gestures
59:32
Speaker 1: in a study, and they found that this was the
59:34
Speaker 1: single most– the highest rated hand gesture that leaders made
59:37
Speaker 1: was when they made this gesture. Now, personally, I don't
59:40
Speaker 1: use this a lot in my interpersonal interactions because it
59:43
Speaker 1: doesn't feel super natural to me. It's funny because we
59:46
Speaker 1: took one picture for my cover photos. And every single
59:51
Speaker 1: picture of me from my cover photos, I was smiling.
59:53
Speaker 1: And my wonderful photographer, Maggie Kirkland, said, Vanessa, can we
59:56
Speaker 1: just do one of you serious? I was like, but
59:58
Speaker 1: I'm not serious. She's like, just one. Just do your
1:00:00
Speaker 1: most powerful power cue. And this is the only picture.
1:00:05
Speaker 1: And that was the one that we chose for it.
1:00:08
Speaker 1: So it's just funny because it's a very high-competence cue.
1:00:10
Speaker 1: So you can try the steeple. Just be careful not
1:00:12
Speaker 1: to do evil fingers with it. That's a high-competence cue.
1:00:16
Speaker 2: That picture of you on the front, what is that signaling?
1:00:18
Speaker 1: So it's a perfect balance, right? So one, I have
1:00:21
Speaker 1: the steeple cue, competence gesture. Two, I'm angled towards you.
1:00:24
Speaker 1: My body is angled towards you, which is a warmth cue.
1:00:26
Speaker 1: That's fronting. My toes are angled towards you, which is warmth.
1:00:28
Speaker 1: I also have a smoldering eye contact look, which is
1:00:31
Speaker 1: high competence, which we can talk about. And I have
1:00:33
Speaker 1: an up face, right? I'm not in my resting, bothered face.
1:00:35
Speaker 1: So that's a slight warmth cue.
1:00:37
Speaker 2: That is actually how it makes me feel. There's an
1:00:39
Speaker 2: element of power, but it's not an intimidating level of power.
1:00:42
Speaker 1: Because I balanced it with that warmth.
1:00:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like a welcoming. Well, yay.
1:00:47
Speaker 1: Woo! We did it. Now I got to do it
1:00:48
Speaker 1: for the next one.
1:00:49
Speaker 2: Okay, steeple.
1:00:50
Speaker 1: Okay, steeple. Yeah. Second, this is a weird one. The
1:00:54
Speaker 1: most important measurement on your entire body is the distance
1:00:58
Speaker 1: between your earlobe and your shoulder. This distance right here.
1:01:02
Speaker 2: Watch.
1:01:03
Speaker 1: If I were to do this in the interview the
1:01:05
Speaker 1: entire time, if I were to have a very small
1:01:07
Speaker 1: distance between my earlobe and my shoulder, I would look anxious.
1:01:11
Speaker 1: I would also have a really hard time giving you
1:01:12
Speaker 1: vocal power. You would have a hard, do you trust me?
1:01:15
Speaker 2: No, you look nervous. Right.
1:01:17
Speaker 1: I look nervous. There's a direct correlation between confidence and
1:01:19
Speaker 1: anxiety and the distance between our shoulder and our earlobe.
1:01:22
Speaker 1: And very quickly, we're trying to just assess someone in
1:01:24
Speaker 1: the first few seconds of seeing them. We're trying to
1:01:26
Speaker 1: assess how confident are you? Can I catch it? We
1:01:30
Speaker 1: don't like people who are anxious. We don't want to
1:01:32
Speaker 1: talk to someone like this because we don't want to
1:01:34
Speaker 1: catch that anxiety. But we do want to talk to
1:01:36
Speaker 1: someone who has the max distance between their earlobes and
1:01:38
Speaker 1: their shoulder. So when you're in a first impression, also
1:01:41
Speaker 1: in your profile pictures, I want a relaxed distance, shoulders down.
1:01:46
Speaker 1: earlobes out, which is another reason why I like that
1:01:48
Speaker 1: this is how your table is set up because it
1:01:50
Speaker 1: pushes my shoulders down so I have a max distance.
1:01:52
Speaker 1: That makes me look more confident, but it also makes
1:01:55
Speaker 1: me feel more confident. There's a look here. So when
1:01:58
Speaker 1: you do the steeple and then you roll your shoulders
1:02:00
Speaker 1: down and back, you will begin to feel more confident.
1:02:04
Speaker 1: Don't you feel that?
1:02:06
Speaker 2: What if you, like, raise your head, though? Because if
1:02:08
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get my ears away from my shoulders,
1:02:10
Speaker 2: I might go like this.
1:02:10
Speaker 1: Actually, they're the same distance. So you want to actually
1:02:13
Speaker 1: keep your chin level. And if you can help it,
1:02:16
Speaker 1: you don't want to actually look down your nose at someone.
1:02:19
Speaker 1: It's quite a scornful judgmental. Exactly. So you just noticed
1:02:22
Speaker 1: it even when I did it. So it's not this.
1:02:24
Speaker 1: It's just this. So maximizing this difference. Third one. I
1:02:29
Speaker 1: love eye contact. We all know good eye contact is important,
1:02:32
Speaker 1: but here's what you might not know about good eye contact.
1:02:34
Speaker 1: Eye contact is a power move when you look at
1:02:36
Speaker 1: someone at the end of your sentence. So we're very
1:02:40
Speaker 1: used to if someone's thinking about something and they're processing
1:02:43
Speaker 1: something in their head and I'm telling you that there
1:02:45
Speaker 1: were 465 gestures in a TED Talk, that is the
1:02:48
Speaker 1: most important way that I want to showcase something to you.
1:02:51
Speaker 1: That we like it when someone is actually accessing different
1:02:54
Speaker 1: memories or areas of their brain, but then when I
1:02:57
Speaker 1: end my sentence looking right at you, you're like, So
1:03:00
Speaker 1: highly competent people make eye contact specifically at the end
1:03:05
Speaker 1: of their sentences to drill a point and ideally when
1:03:08
Speaker 1: the other person is saying something important.
1:03:11
Speaker 2: Okay, interesting. I just did it then. I do that
1:03:14
Speaker 2: when I'm doing interviews because I kind of like look
1:03:16
Speaker 2: off into the distance to think a little bit and
1:03:17
Speaker 2: then I come back to ask.
1:03:18
Speaker 1: The worst advice I hear people give, body language experts give,
1:03:22
Speaker 1: make more eye contact. Make 100% eye contact. It's awkward. Actually,
1:03:27
Speaker 1: in Western culture, as they've studied this, the ideal amount
1:03:30
Speaker 1: of eye contact is between 60 and 70% of the conversation.
1:03:33
Speaker 1: If you make over 70% eye contact, it's actually considered
1:03:36
Speaker 1: a territorial gesture. So if I were to be making
1:03:39
Speaker 1: 100% eye contact with you, it'd feel very invasive, very awkward.
1:03:42
Speaker 1: We like it when someone is processing or gathering information
1:03:45
Speaker 1: from around. Like if I'm processing something or I'm thinking
1:03:47
Speaker 1: about something or I'm accessing, all that matters is at
1:03:50
Speaker 1: the end of my point, I'm looking right at you.
1:03:53
Speaker 1: And that feels so much more powerful.
1:03:55
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's number three.
1:03:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's number three. Yeah. Fourth one, one of my favorites.
1:04:00
Speaker 1: It's called a lower lid flex. Lower lid flex is
1:04:04
Speaker 1: one of the least utilized, but one of my favorite cues.
1:04:07
Speaker 1: So biologically speaking, when we are trying to see something
1:04:12
Speaker 1: far away, we harden our lower lids. I'm trying to
1:04:15
Speaker 1: read the titles on your bookshelf. I harden my lower lids.
1:04:18
Speaker 1: That is because when our eye is trying to see far,
1:04:21
Speaker 1: it squints to block out the light. So you'll see
1:04:24
Speaker 1: more details in my face when you harden your lower
1:04:26
Speaker 1: lid at me. So harden your lower lid. If you
1:04:28
Speaker 1: look at People's Sexiest Men Alive, almost every man in
1:04:32
Speaker 1: that magazine is It's Zoolander, right? Blue steel is actually
1:04:37
Speaker 1: just a lower lid flex. That is because when someone
1:04:40
Speaker 1: is trying to really focus on something and really understand something,
1:04:43
Speaker 1: their lower lid is flexed as you're doing right now.
1:04:46
Speaker 1: And boy, oh boy, do we like it when someone
1:04:48
Speaker 1: is lower lid flexing at us because it means you
1:04:50
Speaker 1: are really trying to understand and see me. So a
1:04:53
Speaker 1: lower lid flex is a great power cue to use
1:04:56
Speaker 1: in moderation, right? Nothing too much. That when someone is
1:04:59
Speaker 1: saying something on a date or in a meeting or
1:05:02
Speaker 1: a colleague is saying something really important and you want
1:05:04
Speaker 1: to show them, I am really listening, that lower lid
1:05:08
Speaker 1: flex shows them, I am super focused and intense on you.
1:05:11
Speaker 1: That is why women find men who do the lower
1:05:13
Speaker 1: lid flex very sexy because they feel like, oh, he's
1:05:17
Speaker 1: really focusing on me. Now, there's a little side note
1:05:21
Speaker 1: to the lower lid flex. Lower lid flex is not,
1:05:24
Speaker 1: it's inherently in itself a positive cue. It's a cue
1:05:26
Speaker 1: of focus, right? If you are in a presentation or
1:05:30
Speaker 1: a meeting and you say something and someone suddenly lid
1:05:33
Speaker 1: flexes at you, you might have just said something and
1:05:37
Speaker 1: they're like, really? Yeah. So for me, this is a
1:05:41
Speaker 1: game-changing moment as I was giving a presentation to a
1:05:44
Speaker 1: bunch of executives and I said something about oxytocin, which
1:05:47
Speaker 1: is the hormone of love and cuddle and connection. And
1:05:52
Speaker 1: he goes– I saw him lower lid flex at me.
1:05:54
Speaker 2: But he's also turned his head there.
1:05:56
Speaker 1: I don't know if he, I don't remember if he
1:05:57
Speaker 1: turned his head, but all I noticed is that distinctly
1:05:59
Speaker 1: he went from to.
1:06:01
Speaker 2: Ah, yes.
1:06:03
Speaker 1: And I went, does that make sense? Any questions? So
1:06:06
Speaker 1: if you see a lower lid flex, your best choice
1:06:09
Speaker 1: is to try to gather more information. That makes sense.
1:06:11
Speaker 1: All good. Any questions for me? How we feel about this?
1:06:14
Speaker 1: So I said, any questions for me? And he goes,
1:06:16
Speaker 1: and I looked right at him. I said, any questions
1:06:18
Speaker 1: for me? He said, you know, I think they gave
1:06:21
Speaker 1: my wife oxytocin in labor. Is that the same thing?
1:06:24
Speaker 1: And it's true that they give a form of oxytocin
1:06:27
Speaker 1: to induce women in labor. That's how strong oxytocin is.
1:06:30
Speaker 1: In high doses, it will put women into labor. It's
1:06:32
Speaker 1: a form, it's called pitocin. I said, you're absolutely right.
1:06:36
Speaker 1: In medical settings, they can give synthetic forms of oxytocin
1:06:39
Speaker 1: to push women into labor. That was a moment for
1:06:41
Speaker 1: me because one is I realized I was able to
1:06:43
Speaker 1: stop the skepticism and the confusion right there before we
1:06:47
Speaker 1: moved on to anything else. And now when I teach oxytocin,
1:06:50
Speaker 1: I say, in social settings, oxytocin means this, because in
1:06:55
Speaker 1: medical settings, it means something different. So noticing that lower
1:06:59
Speaker 1: lid flex is incredibly important for you to understand where
1:07:02
Speaker 1: you might have a hint of skepticism or a hint
1:07:05
Speaker 1: of confusion. If you're in a sales meeting or a presentation,
1:07:08
Speaker 1: you want to make sure you have addressed whatever that
1:07:11
Speaker 1: person is flexing about before you move on.
1:07:14
Speaker 2: Super interesting. And that example you give there as well,
1:07:16
Speaker 2: you Had you not investigated that lower lid flex, you
1:07:20
Speaker 2: might have also thought something you said was wrong and
1:07:23
Speaker 2: lost your confidence. And that can spiral into, you know,
1:07:26
Speaker 2: closing off and becoming a worse presenter.
1:07:29
Speaker 1: This is why I thought people hated me and I
1:07:31
Speaker 1: hated people. So for my folks that are listening who
1:07:34
Speaker 1: are like, I hate people and I get it. I
1:07:36
Speaker 1: was misreading cues as skeptical or negative of me when
1:07:41
Speaker 1: it could have been neutral or curiosity or trying to
1:07:43
Speaker 1: understand something better. If you can give these a try,
1:07:47
Speaker 1: It will help you more deeply understand people, which might
1:07:50
Speaker 1: help you like them more. Ready for the fifth one?
1:07:54
Speaker 2: I'm ready for the fifth.
1:07:55
Speaker 1: Okay, the fifth one. This is a vocal cue. So
1:07:57
Speaker 1: we talked a lot about body language cues, but vocal
1:07:59
Speaker 1: cues are incredibly important. Vocal cues. Tell someone how you
1:08:06
Speaker 1: are feeling about them and how you feel about yourself.
1:08:09
Speaker 1: One of the biggest ones is an accidental question inflection.
1:08:13
Speaker 1: A question inflection is when we go up at the
1:08:15
Speaker 1: end of our sentence and So it sounds like we're
1:08:17
Speaker 1: asking a question, even if we're actually using a statement.
1:08:21
Speaker 1: The brain, research has actually looked at what the brain
1:08:24
Speaker 1: does when it hears an accidental question inflection. If we
1:08:28
Speaker 1: are listening to someone and we hear them accidentally use
1:08:30
Speaker 1: the question inflection, our brain goes from listening to scrutinizing.
1:08:34
Speaker 2: Why?
1:08:35
Speaker 1: Our brain wonders, why did you ask me that? Liars
1:08:39
Speaker 1: typically accidentally use the question inflection. If I say to
1:08:43
Speaker 1: my daughter, did you take the cookie from the cookie jar?
1:08:45
Speaker 1: And she goes, no. Liars are asking, do you believe this?
1:08:52
Speaker 1: So we have noticed we did a massive experiment in
1:08:55
Speaker 1: our lab where we had people play two truths and
1:08:57
Speaker 1: a lie with us. So share two truths about themselves
1:08:59
Speaker 1: and a lie. And we found overwhelmingly one of the
1:09:02
Speaker 1: biggest patterns. There's a couple of different patterns. And one
1:09:04
Speaker 1: of the biggest ones was that liars asked their lie statement.
1:09:08
Speaker 1: So it would sound like this. Here, you can play
1:09:10
Speaker 1: with me and I'll add the question inflection to one.
1:09:13
Speaker 1: I love dogs. I live in Austin, Texas. And I
1:09:16
Speaker 1: love cilantro.
1:09:17
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. You don't like cilantro? No.
1:09:19
Speaker 1: It's like a crime against humanity. Why do people put
1:09:23
Speaker 1: cilantro on anything? So we notice people ask the lie
1:09:26
Speaker 1: because they were asking, do you believe this? So our
1:09:29
Speaker 1: brain is very adept at this. If we hear the
1:09:31
Speaker 1: accidental question inflection used, we go, wait a minute. Is
1:09:34
Speaker 1: someone lying to me? The biggest mistake that salespeople make
1:09:37
Speaker 1: is they get through their entire pitch and they ask
1:09:40
Speaker 1: their number. So it sounds like this. Hi, we'd love
1:09:44
Speaker 1: to do business with you. We'd love to have your project.
1:09:47
Speaker 1: And the cost of this service is $ 5, 000. If you
1:09:52
Speaker 1: ask your number, you are begging people to negotiate with you.
1:09:56
Speaker 1: If you are asking for a raise or you are
1:09:58
Speaker 1: asking for a certain salary and you ask it, you
1:10:00
Speaker 1: are signaling to the other person, I don't really believe
1:10:03
Speaker 1: this number and you shouldn't either. So the power cue,
1:10:06
Speaker 1: number five power cue is using the downward inflection. Highly
1:10:10
Speaker 1: competent people, they do not mistakenly use the question inflection.
1:10:13
Speaker 1: They actually go down at the end of their sentences.
1:10:16
Speaker 1: President Obama is very good at slinging down his words,
1:10:21
Speaker 1: which makes you want to listen. So it sounds like this.
1:10:23
Speaker 1: I'm going to say nothing so you can hear it.
1:10:25
Speaker 1: The problem in this country is that we don't take
1:10:28
Speaker 1: seriously enough the issues of our people. And if we
1:10:31
Speaker 1: don't take those issues seriously, we will be in grave trouble.
1:10:36
Speaker 1: So he tends to go down at the end of
1:10:38
Speaker 1: his sentences. He also has a lot of space in
1:10:39
Speaker 1: the bottom of his mouth. That makes us, gives us
1:10:42
Speaker 1: him more resonance, but it also makes us think, oh,
1:10:44
Speaker 1: he really believes his word because it's the opposite of
1:10:46
Speaker 1: the question inflection. If you have a boundary, if you're
1:10:49
Speaker 1: setting a limit, if you're telling someone something really important
1:10:53
Speaker 1: about you, say it. Don't ask it. That is the
1:10:57
Speaker 1: biggest thing you can do to get people to take
1:10:58
Speaker 1: you seriously.
1:10:59
Speaker 2: Interesting.
1:11:00
Speaker 1: And don't ask your name. Most often, I hear people
1:11:03
Speaker 1: ask their own name and it destroys their vocal charisma.
1:11:07
Speaker 1: So that would be, my name is Vanessa Van Edwards.
1:11:11
Speaker 1: Not my name is Vanessa Van Edwards. Your perceptions of
1:11:15
Speaker 1: my confidence in those two introductions are radically different. There's
1:11:19
Speaker 1: a study that looked at this and they looked at
1:11:21
Speaker 1: the vocal statements of surgeons. They had surgeons come into
1:11:26
Speaker 1: their lab and record 10-second voice tone clips, the clips
1:11:29
Speaker 1: that are most important when they're meeting patients. their name,
1:11:32
Speaker 1: their specialty, and where they worked. Sounded like this. Hi,
1:11:35
Speaker 1: my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology and
1:11:38
Speaker 1: I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital. They took these clips
1:11:41
Speaker 1: and they warbled the words so you could hear the volume,
1:11:44
Speaker 1: the pace, the cadence, but not the actual words being said.
1:11:46
Speaker 1: So it sounded like this. I worked very hard on
1:11:53
Speaker 1: practicing that, by the way.
1:11:53
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
1:11:54
Speaker 1: Because it has to sound like me, but nothing. They
1:11:57
Speaker 1: took these clips and they had people rate these surgeons
1:12:00
Speaker 1: on warmth and competence. The two things that we know
1:12:03
Speaker 1: are most important for charisma. The doctors who had the
1:12:06
Speaker 1: lowest ratings of warmth and competence had the highest rate
1:12:10
Speaker 1: of malpractice lawsuits. In other words, we don't sue doctors
1:12:15
Speaker 1: based on their skills. We sue doctors based on our
1:12:19
Speaker 1: perception of their skills, and that happens within the first
1:12:21
Speaker 1: few seconds of hearing them. So if you give the
1:12:25
Speaker 1: question inflection, on your name, on your specialty, on what
1:12:28
Speaker 1: you do, people begin to doubt you. So the bad
1:12:31
Speaker 1: doctors sounded like this. Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards.
1:12:35
Speaker 1: I specialize in oncology and I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital.
1:12:40
Speaker 1: Those doctors got rated as low in both warmth and
1:12:43
Speaker 1: competence because their brains were going, why are they asking?
1:12:47
Speaker 1: Are they not sure? I'm not sure either.
1:12:48
Speaker 2: So it's really signaling conviction in who you are, what
1:12:53
Speaker 2: you're about and what you do. Interesting.
1:12:56
Speaker 1: So practice your name, your price.
1:12:58
Speaker 2: Hello, my name is Steven. No, that was up.
1:13:01
Speaker 1: That was a little off.
1:13:02
Speaker 2: Hi, my name's Steven. That's it. Okay.
1:13:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
1:13:06
Speaker 2: I literally asked that like a question, didn't I, the
1:13:08
Speaker 2: first one? I was like, hello, my name's Steven. I
1:13:11
Speaker 2: was trying to ask you if it was a good pronunciation.
1:13:13
Speaker 2: That's so funny.
1:13:13
Speaker 1: That was the upward inflection. And didn't it feel different?
1:13:16
Speaker 2: Totally different. The second one was me. So the first
1:13:18
Speaker 2: one was like seeking validation.
1:13:19
Speaker 1: And you use a lot of downward inflection, except when
1:13:21
Speaker 1: you're asking questions, which we like.
1:13:22
Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. right?
1:13:23
Speaker 1: That's why you lean higher in competence is you use
1:13:26
Speaker 1: already a lot of downward inflection.
1:13:28
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because as you were speaking, something came
1:13:30
Speaker 2: to mind, which I was reading about in your work,
1:13:33
Speaker 2: which is you're really good at what you do. You're
1:13:35
Speaker 2: like very good as a guest on a podcast and
1:13:39
Speaker 2: just as a professional generally. And as I was thinking this,
1:13:41
Speaker 2: I was saying to myself, I'm sure she knows. And
1:13:44
Speaker 2: I'm sure she can tell from my face that I
1:13:45
Speaker 2: think she's good. But it's funny because in your work,
1:13:48
Speaker 2: you say that we're actually, we over-assume people can read us.
1:13:52
Speaker 2: So like when I was thinking, oh, she's so good.
1:13:54
Speaker 2: And in your work, it says that I was doing it.
1:13:57
Speaker 2: I was assuming you knew how I felt about you.
1:14:00
Speaker 2: But in your work, you also make the case that
1:14:02
Speaker 2: I should say it.
1:14:03
Speaker 1: Yes, yes. There's an effect where we think that people
1:14:07
Speaker 1: know how we feel. Specifically, it's called signal amplification bias.
1:14:11
Speaker 1: It's a name for this study, which is that we
1:14:13
Speaker 1: think our signals are obvious, that if we like someone
1:14:16
Speaker 1: or if we're having a good time, we think, oh,
1:14:18
Speaker 1: they for sure know it.
1:14:19
Speaker 2: They don't.
1:14:20
Speaker 1: Oh, the three magic phrases, we never finish them. That's
1:14:23
Speaker 1: why you say, I was just thinking of you. That's
1:14:25
Speaker 1: a way of assuring someone, I do think of you,
1:14:28
Speaker 1: only if it's true. The second one is you're always so,
1:14:33
Speaker 1: so if you're with someone and you're impressed by them
1:14:35
Speaker 1: or they're interesting or they're funny, saying, oh, you always
1:14:38
Speaker 1: make me laugh. You're always so interesting. You're always so
1:14:41
Speaker 1: great to interview. You're always so great at interviews. Giving
1:14:44
Speaker 1: them a label that is a positive label is the
1:14:47
Speaker 1: best gift you can give someone because it's fighting that
1:14:49
Speaker 1: signal amplification bias. And the last one is, Last time
1:14:53
Speaker 1: we talked, you mentioned we are so honored when we
1:14:58
Speaker 1: get brain space that you remembered and you're going to
1:15:00
Speaker 1: bring it up. And you specifically bring up something that
1:15:02
Speaker 1: they lit up with, something they were like, oh, it
1:15:05
Speaker 1: was great. It was exciting. It was wonderful. Those are
1:15:07
Speaker 1: my three magic phrases. And it's because they are fighting
1:15:10
Speaker 1: that signal implication bias. I have no idea if you
1:15:13
Speaker 1: like this interview. I have no idea if you like
1:15:14
Speaker 1: my work. I have no idea. And the more that
1:15:17
Speaker 1: you can broadcast those symbols, those signals, the more people
1:15:21
Speaker 1: actually like you.
1:15:23
Speaker 2: So what advice would you give me then as an interview,
1:15:25
Speaker 2: I guess I'm an interview host of the show? Because
1:15:30
Speaker 2: people come here, sometimes they're nervous. We have people come
1:15:33
Speaker 2: in there. Some people come in there nervous a little bit.
1:15:37
Speaker 2: And I always want to make them feel comfortable, but I...
1:15:40
Speaker 2: As you said, I probably don't rank that high on warmth,
1:15:42
Speaker 2: so it doesn't come that natural to me. I'm not
1:15:44
Speaker 2: the kind of person that comes out and is like, hiya, welcome.
1:15:48
Speaker 1: And that would be off-brand for you.
1:15:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it wouldn't be authentic.
1:15:51
Speaker 1: No, no, it would be off-brand for you. Right, it's
1:15:52
Speaker 1: too much. Okay, so five warmth cues. So for those
1:15:55
Speaker 1: of you who are listening, the five power cues I
1:15:57
Speaker 1: just shared, those are if you think you are really
1:16:00
Speaker 1: high in warmth, but you worry that people don't take
1:16:02
Speaker 1: you seriously, you're worried that people ignore you, You get
1:16:06
Speaker 1: interrupted in meetings. I want you to use those five
1:16:09
Speaker 1: power cues if that's you. Now I'm going to teach
1:16:11
Speaker 1: you five warmth cues. If you have ever been told
1:16:14
Speaker 1: you're intimidating, hard to talk to, cold, if you often
1:16:18
Speaker 1: feel like people are holding back or not opening up
1:16:20
Speaker 1: to you, I want you to use these five warmth cues.
1:16:22
Speaker 1: This is dialing up your thermostat. Okay, these are for
1:16:24
Speaker 1: you too. First, we love a triple nod. Research has
1:16:29
Speaker 1: found that if we do a slow triple nod, the
1:16:32
Speaker 1: other person speaks 67% longer. So as an interview, this
1:16:38
Speaker 1: is a great cue.
1:16:39
Speaker 2: Watch.
1:16:39
Speaker 1: So here's my triple nod is mm, mm, mm. We
1:16:44
Speaker 1: love it. It's like a nonverbal dot, dot, dot. It's
1:16:45
Speaker 1: like tell me more.
1:16:47
Speaker 2: Tell me more.
1:16:48
Speaker 1: Now, be careful. Don't bobblehead. So you don't want to
1:16:51
Speaker 1: do it too much.
1:16:51
Speaker 2: Right.
1:16:52
Speaker 1: That's too high and warm. And second, you don't want
1:16:54
Speaker 1: to do it too fast. Too fast of a triple
1:16:57
Speaker 1: nod is impatience.
1:16:58
Speaker 2: It means shut up.
1:16:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if you want someone to wrap a question, yeah,
1:17:02
Speaker 1: that's that. Yeah.
1:17:04
Speaker 2: That's it. That's exactly it.
1:17:06
Speaker 1: So here's for everyone watching. Here's good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
1:17:09
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
1:17:10
Speaker 1: Here's please hurry up. Mm-hmm.
1:17:12
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's shut the fuck up.
1:17:14
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:17:14
Speaker 2: I've seen that before.
1:17:15
Speaker 1: And it works. It's a really nice way of saying
1:17:18
Speaker 1: please rap. Please end. So I love a warm triple nod,
1:17:22
Speaker 1: but you have to be careful with it. Okay, so
1:17:23
Speaker 1: that's cue number one. Second, a head tilt. So universally,
1:17:28
Speaker 1: if we're trying to hear something, we tilt our head
1:17:30
Speaker 1: up and we expose our ear. right? As if we're saying,
1:17:33
Speaker 1: what was that? Like dogs do this when they're like,
1:17:36
Speaker 1: you know, and they expose their ear. Humans also do
1:17:38
Speaker 1: this across cultures because it's kind of a way that
1:17:41
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, I'm listening to this. Research has found
1:17:44
Speaker 1: that if you deliver bad news with a head tilt,
1:17:46
Speaker 1: you are more likable. So people take the news better
1:17:50
Speaker 1: if you deliver bad news with a slight head tilt,
1:17:52
Speaker 1: because it literally makes you look more warm. It literally
1:17:54
Speaker 1: makes you look like you're listening. Now, I only want
1:17:55
Speaker 1: you to do this when you're actually listening. But a
1:17:58
Speaker 1: head tilt is also a way that you can slightly
1:17:59
Speaker 1: add warmth to your conversation or to your interview or
1:18:02
Speaker 1: to your date. Okay, so we're going to go back
1:18:04
Speaker 1: to that. So we don't want to go too far.
1:18:05
Speaker 1: That looks weird. A little weird. Not too much. And
1:18:10
Speaker 1: I also like to teach a head tilt to my
1:18:12
Speaker 1: highly warm folks who are bobbleheaders. So if anyone– if
1:18:15
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I do this a lot. I'm a bobbleheader.
1:18:19
Speaker 1: I'm a recovering bobbleheader because I like to– people like me, right?
1:18:22
Speaker 1: So I'll nod too much. If you are a bobbleheader,
1:18:26
Speaker 1: you can train yourself to replace it with the head
1:18:28
Speaker 1: tilt because it's physically impossible to head tilt while you nod.
1:18:32
Speaker 1: So if you're a bobbleheader, just head tilt.
1:18:35
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:18:36
Speaker 1: Head tilt.
1:18:37
Speaker 2: There's something about the head tilt which makes me, it
1:18:39
Speaker 2: signals they care. Yeah. And they're empathetic.
1:18:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:18:45
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is about someone's head tilt
1:18:48
Speaker 2: Because if someone was firing me and they were doing
1:18:51
Speaker 2: it like this, I feel like they don't care. There's
1:18:53
Speaker 2: something ruthless. But if they do it like this, it's
1:18:55
Speaker 2: like … They really.
1:18:56
Speaker 1: Care about me.
1:18:57
Speaker 2: That's so crazy.
1:18:57
Speaker 1: Just such a small … That one little thing. You
1:18:59
Speaker 1: know that you mentioned the book The Game?
1:19:01
Speaker 2: Yes.
1:19:01
Speaker 1: I know a lot about that world. And there's a
1:19:05
Speaker 1: funny … trick they teach, which I'll teach you. It's
1:19:08
Speaker 1: not part of my warmth cues, but I'm going to
1:19:09
Speaker 1: teach it to you because I think it's interesting. Don't
1:19:12
Speaker 1: let anyone use this on you.
1:19:14
Speaker 2: Okay. And nobody at home use this on anyone else.
1:19:16
Speaker 1: Don't use this on anyone else. But so there's this
1:19:19
Speaker 1: thing that NLP people will do or pickup artists will
1:19:22
Speaker 1: do where they move their hand like this and it begins,
1:19:25
Speaker 1: the other person will begin to nod because typically when
1:19:27
Speaker 1: we do this with our hand, the other person starts
1:19:29
Speaker 1: to nod, which makes you think, I agree, I agree,
1:19:30
Speaker 1: I agree.
1:19:31
Speaker 2: What are you doing for anyone that is watching?
1:19:33
Speaker 1: I'm moving my hand up and down in a nodding
1:19:36
Speaker 1: yes motion. And so what I've noticed very manipulative people
1:19:40
Speaker 1: will do is they'll be doing this. They speak like,
1:19:42
Speaker 1: don't you understand what I'm saying? Do you get this?
1:19:43
Speaker 1: Another person will start to nod. And I've seen audiences,
1:19:45
Speaker 1: entire audiences will start nodding. And then you think to yourself, well,
1:19:48
Speaker 1: I'm nodding, so I must agree with this person. It's
1:19:50
Speaker 1: a secret way to get someone to secretly agree with you.
1:19:52
Speaker 1: So just be careful. Don't make sure no one uses
1:19:54
Speaker 1: that on you.
1:19:56
Speaker 2: And you're doing it in a bit of a circular motion.
1:19:58
Speaker 1: Right.
1:19:59
Speaker 2: Circular motion. It's not straight up and down. You're just
1:20:01
Speaker 2: kind of like, for anyone that can't see, she's... Like.
1:20:02
Speaker 1: We're rolling something forward. And then you're like, I want to...
1:20:05
Speaker 1: It's really hard to not nod your head when someone's
1:20:07
Speaker 1: doing this, which then makes you feel like you agree
1:20:09
Speaker 1: with them.
1:20:10
Speaker 2: That's so crazy. It's like you've got like a string
1:20:12
Speaker 2: on my head.
1:20:12
Speaker 1: A string on your head. It's very weird. So don't
1:20:14
Speaker 1: let anyone do that to you. And don't use it.
1:20:15
Speaker 2: Don't use it on anyone.
1:20:16
Speaker 1: I don't teach it in my books because it's like,
1:20:17
Speaker 1: I'm worried that people.
1:20:19
Speaker 2: It's too powerful.
1:20:19
Speaker 1: It's too powerful. Okay. Triple nod, head tilt. One and two.
1:20:22
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:20:23
Speaker 1: Third, we already talked about this one, an authentic smile, right?
1:20:25
Speaker 1: A smile that reaches all the way up into your eyes.
1:20:27
Speaker 1: Highly warm people typically do that authentic smile more. Now,
1:20:31
Speaker 1: I don't like a fake smile, so I only want
1:20:32
Speaker 1: you to do it when you're authentic. What's wrong about
1:20:35
Speaker 1: that was my authentic smile?
1:20:36
Speaker 2: You laughed. This is why I don't smile. This is
1:20:39
Speaker 2: why people think I'm intimidating because people laugh at my smile. Look.
1:20:43
Speaker 1: That's good. That was better. That was better.
1:20:45
Speaker 2: I can tell you're lying. This is body language. I
1:20:47
Speaker 2: can tell you're lying.
1:20:49
Speaker 1: That was better. That was better than the first one.
1:20:50
Speaker 2: That's better than the first one. That doesn't mean it's good.
1:20:52
Speaker 2: I'm looking for good.
1:20:54
Speaker 1: Anyway, number four is.
1:20:56
Speaker 2: That's authentic smells number three.
1:20:58
Speaker 1: Authentic smells number three. Number four. We love a lean. Ooh,
1:21:03
Speaker 1: we love a lean. When in the proxemic zones, right?
1:21:07
Speaker 1: We're in those four zones. If someone's leaning into you,
1:21:10
Speaker 1: it shows they're literally trying to cross from that zone very,
1:21:12
Speaker 1: very subtly. And so you'll notice very highly charismatic people
1:21:15
Speaker 1: who you want to be friends with. They'll be like,
1:21:17
Speaker 1: tell me more, tell me everything. And they lean in
1:21:20
Speaker 1: really close to you. And that makes you also feel closer.
1:21:23
Speaker 1: So if you want to be seen as higher in warmth,
1:21:25
Speaker 1: you can do this as a speaker. So you can
1:21:27
Speaker 1: lean in as you bold an important point. Like when
1:21:30
Speaker 1: I'm making an important point for you, I lean into it.
1:21:32
Speaker 1: I'm like, listen to this. This is good. But if
1:21:35
Speaker 1: I'm listening to you and you say something good, I'll
1:21:38
Speaker 1: be like, what? Really? So you can do it as
1:21:41
Speaker 1: a speaker and as a listener and it immediately adds
1:21:43
Speaker 1: more warmth.
1:21:44
Speaker 2: It's funny. Okay. This might be a little bit of
1:21:45
Speaker 2: a tangent, but it just came to mind as you
1:21:47
Speaker 2: were speaking. There are like the odd person in my
1:21:50
Speaker 2: life who I've known for many, many years, but whenever
1:21:52
Speaker 2: I'm around them, it kind of goes back to what
1:21:53
Speaker 2: I was saying earlier. My body is just off. And like,
1:21:59
Speaker 2: I just don't know what it is. Like, I'm thinking
1:22:01
Speaker 2: of one particular person, my shout name, where I could
1:22:05
Speaker 2: be in a room full of people and I'm relaxed,
1:22:06
Speaker 2: I'm calm, whatever. And this person who I've known for many,
1:22:09
Speaker 2: many years, the minute they arrived in the room, I
1:22:13
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to be the same person. And I
1:22:15
Speaker 2: don't know what it is. I'd suddenly start overthinking my
1:22:18
Speaker 2: body language and I'd start thinking, how's my legs and
1:22:20
Speaker 2: what's my body? And I'd start covering, blocking a little bit.
1:22:23
Speaker 2: What is that trying to tell me? Do I need
1:22:26
Speaker 2: to cut this person out of my life? Is there
1:22:28
Speaker 2: like words unspoken? What is it?
1:22:31
Speaker 1: I would say it means do more research. I think
1:22:34
Speaker 1: that gut feelings are incredibly important because, you know, the
1:22:36
Speaker 1: best cue reading machine we have is our subconscious. Our
1:22:39
Speaker 1: subconscious or unconscious is picking up on lots of cues
1:22:42
Speaker 1: that we can't consciously know. We can't consciously know that
1:22:44
Speaker 1: we're smelling adrenaline, but we are smelling it. So I
1:22:47
Speaker 1: think that's a very important thing to pay attention to.
1:22:49
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you should cut them out, but I
1:22:51
Speaker 1: think it's time to do more research. Are they truly
1:22:53
Speaker 1: happy for you? Are they truly rooting for you? Are
1:22:56
Speaker 1: they secretly angry or jealous?
1:22:58
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm doing it to them.
1:23:00
Speaker 1: It's possible that you're in a loop with them, right?
1:23:02
Speaker 1: Like you're expecting that bad thing and that expectation becomes reality.
1:23:05
Speaker 1: Like they've studied this, that the Pygmalion effect is real.
1:23:08
Speaker 1: If you expect not to like someone, you send off
1:23:11
Speaker 1: more unlikable cues. They feel unliked and so they don't
1:23:13
Speaker 1: like you either. And so it could be that you're
1:23:16
Speaker 1: in a loop with this person that maybe you make
1:23:17
Speaker 1: them feel the same way.
1:23:18
Speaker 2: What do I have to do then next time I
1:23:19
Speaker 2: see them? Because I want to dial up, I don't know,
1:23:23
Speaker 2: some warmth with this person or something or Break that cycle. Okay.
1:23:27
Speaker 1: If I were you, they're important to you?
1:23:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're important to me.
1:23:31
Speaker 1: Okay. So I would recommend asking questions that will level
1:23:35
Speaker 1: you up with them to level two. So my guess
1:23:37
Speaker 1: is you might be stuck in level one with them
1:23:39
Speaker 1: because you're obviously uncomfortable with them. Research shows that the
1:23:42
Speaker 1: more commonalities we have someone, the more that we understand them,
1:23:45
Speaker 1: the more compassion we have with them, the more that
1:23:46
Speaker 1: we like someone. So I wonder if we could level
1:23:49
Speaker 1: up your relationship with them so you get to know
1:23:51
Speaker 1: them better, which means you'll like them more. And if
1:23:54
Speaker 1: you make it through these six or seven questions and
1:23:56
Speaker 1: you still don't like them, then maybe they're not your person.
1:23:59
Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.
1:24:00
Speaker 1: Can I give you some questions for them?
1:24:02
Speaker 2: Please. Okay. Please.
1:24:03
Speaker 1: So here are my favorite. I call these level one,
1:24:06
Speaker 1: level two, level three questions. In the framework that I'm
1:24:08
Speaker 1: researching right now, it's not done yet. I have four
1:24:10
Speaker 1: questions for each level and I'm working through these questions.
1:24:13
Speaker 1: But here are the questions that I think are the
1:24:15
Speaker 1: shortcut to connection.
1:24:16
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:24:16
Speaker 1: That if you ask these questions with your partner, your friend, colleagues,
1:24:19
Speaker 1: you're going to level up with them.
1:24:20
Speaker 2: Okay. First.
1:24:23
Speaker 1: Are you working on anything exciting recently? So stop asking
1:24:26
Speaker 1: what do you do. Stop asking how are you. Stop
1:24:29
Speaker 1: asking how's it going. That's why you hate people. If
1:24:31
Speaker 1: you're asking those questions, of course you're going to hate people.
1:24:34
Speaker 1: Those are the most boring questions anyone's ever asked. Can
1:24:37
Speaker 1: I give you a challenge? A challenge. Here's one challenge
1:24:40
Speaker 1: from this podcast. Stop asking what do you do. For
1:24:44
Speaker 1: 30 days, I want you to go on a what
1:24:45
Speaker 1: do you do diet. Asking what do you do is
1:24:47
Speaker 1: telling the person's brain, stay on autopilot. How am I
1:24:50
Speaker 1: off that last night? I know. No, no more. We're
1:24:53
Speaker 1: on a diet.
1:24:53
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:24:54
Speaker 1: Also asking someone, what do you do? Is asking, what
1:24:57
Speaker 1: are you worth? And if someone's not defined by what
1:25:00
Speaker 1: they do, it's actually a rude question.
1:25:02
Speaker 2: Do you know what? You're so right. It's so funny
1:25:04
Speaker 2: you say this because yesterday I went to this thing
1:25:06
Speaker 2: in New York, right? And I was introducing myself to
1:25:10
Speaker 2: some people and there was one particular person who I
1:25:11
Speaker 2: went over to and we're having a conversation. And halfway
1:25:13
Speaker 2: through the conversation, I went, so what do you do?
1:25:16
Speaker 2: And do you know what they replied? They went, this. Okay.
1:25:20
Speaker 2: And I just, I went home thinking about it. Like,
1:25:22
Speaker 2: I was like, of course, we're fucking at one. What
1:25:27
Speaker 2: I've done there is I've just belittled what we're doing
1:25:29
Speaker 2: right now as if it couldn't possibly have been what
1:25:31
Speaker 2: they do.
1:25:32
Speaker 1: Right.
1:25:33
Speaker 2: And I just, honestly, I got in bed last night
1:25:35
Speaker 2: thinking about it. I thought, God, do you know what
1:25:37
Speaker 2: it was? I think I was so impressed by them
1:25:40
Speaker 2: that I was a bit awkward.
1:25:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:25:43
Speaker 2: And then that just came out mid-sentence. What did you do?
1:25:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:25:46
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:25:46
Speaker 1: So we're going on a diet. Everyone for the next
1:25:48
Speaker 1: 30 days, we're going on a diet. No more, what
1:25:49
Speaker 1: do you do? You're going to replace it with working
1:25:51
Speaker 1: on anything exciting these days or working on anything exciting recently.
1:25:54
Speaker 1: This is permission connection. You ask someone that question, you
1:25:58
Speaker 1: are giving them permission. If they want to tell you
1:25:59
Speaker 1: about what they do, oh, they will. If they are
1:26:02
Speaker 1: not defined by what they do, they'll tell you something better.
1:26:05
Speaker 1: And that also gives you really good nuggets for the
1:26:07
Speaker 1: next time you see them when you can say, hey,
1:26:09
Speaker 1: how was that thing you were working on that was
1:26:12
Speaker 1: really exciting going? So start with working on anything exciting
1:26:14
Speaker 1: these days, working on anything exciting right now.
1:26:17
Speaker 2: Second.
1:26:18
Speaker 1: What's your biggest goal right now? So if you can,
1:26:21
Speaker 1: especially as we go into the new year, in the
1:26:23
Speaker 1: new year, right, beginning part of the year, I love,
1:26:24
Speaker 1: I asked this question in December, January, and February. I
1:26:28
Speaker 1: ask everyone, what's your biggest goal right now? What's your
1:26:30
Speaker 1: big goal for 2025? When you ask this question, you're
1:26:34
Speaker 1: going to get one of two responses. One, someone shuts
1:26:36
Speaker 1: you down. I don't believe in goals. Not my person.
1:26:40
Speaker 1: Not my person. I'm a growth-minded person. If someone says that,
1:26:43
Speaker 1: I'm like, cool, peace. We're not going to get along
1:26:46
Speaker 1: very well because I have a lot of goals. Or
1:26:48
Speaker 1: they're going to be like, oh, let me tell you.
1:26:49
Speaker 1: And they're going to tell you all about goals. That's
1:26:51
Speaker 1: also a great thing you can follow up on because
1:26:53
Speaker 1: then when you see them a month later or a
1:26:55
Speaker 1: week later or a year later, you can be like, hey,
1:26:56
Speaker 1: how did that go?
1:26:58
Speaker 2: It's a great interview question.
1:27:00
Speaker 1: It's great.
1:27:01
Speaker 2: I was just thinking that. I should ask people that
1:27:02
Speaker 2: in the interview. Trademark. Yeah, because you're right. Someone that
1:27:06
Speaker 2: can't articulate some kind of goal is probably not my
1:27:09
Speaker 2: kind of person. Those kind of people that go– actually,
1:27:13
Speaker 2: those kind of people don't listen to this podcast anyway. Right.
1:27:14
Speaker 2: They're not here. They just leave hate comments and fuck up.
1:27:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So, like, it's a very– I call those
1:27:18
Speaker 1: allergy questions.
1:27:20
Speaker 2: Interesting.
1:27:21
Speaker 1: It's a way to see, are we going to have
1:27:22
Speaker 1: an allergic reaction to each other? It creates an allergy. Like,
1:27:26
Speaker 1: I know there's a type of person that susses them
1:27:28
Speaker 1: out really quickly, and that's not my kind of person.
1:27:30
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
1:27:31
Speaker 1: Okay, so working on anything exciting, what's your goal right now?
1:27:35
Speaker 1: And then this is harder. This is a self-narrative question.
1:27:37
Speaker 1: Do we want to go deeper for a self-narrative question?
1:27:39
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Of course we want to go that route.
1:27:44
Speaker 1: So if we're getting into self-narrative and you're trying to
1:27:47
Speaker 1: figure out yourself or someone else's narrative, you want to
1:27:50
Speaker 1: ask the question. It sounds innocuous, but it's not. What book, movie,
1:27:55
Speaker 1: or TV character is most like you and why? It's
1:28:00
Speaker 1: kind of a silly like dinner party question. It's like
1:28:01
Speaker 1: sort of sounds casual, but the answer to this question
1:28:04
Speaker 1: is so incredibly important. And here's an example. How someone
1:28:08
Speaker 1: relates to characters, their values or personality is how they
1:28:11
Speaker 1: see themselves. And people's answers will shock you. I'll give
1:28:14
Speaker 1: you one example. I was friends with someone for six years.
1:28:18
Speaker 1: One of my closest friends saw them all the time.
1:28:20
Speaker 2: Weekends.
1:28:21
Speaker 1: We went on outings together. We went on weekend trips together.
1:28:23
Speaker 1: I thought I knew her so well. I was like,
1:28:24
Speaker 1: I know her. I asked her this question and I hypothesized,
1:28:27
Speaker 1: this is all my research for my next book. I
1:28:29
Speaker 1: was like, I hypothesized she's a mom of three, super funny,
1:28:32
Speaker 1: super savvy. I was like, she's going to pick a
1:28:34
Speaker 1: great TV mom character that's super savvy and funny.
1:28:39
Speaker 2: Asked her.
1:28:40
Speaker 1: She thinks about it for maybe one second and goes,
1:28:42
Speaker 1: Katniss Everdeens from The Hunger Games. I was like, the
1:28:48
Speaker 1: one who's fighting for her life? She's like, yeah, that's
1:28:51
Speaker 1: how I feel every day. And we, for the first
1:28:55
Speaker 1: time in six years, had a conversation about how she
1:28:58
Speaker 1: feels about her day that was totally different than anything
1:29:01
Speaker 1: I had ever known, that she feels scared and lonely
1:29:05
Speaker 1: and that she is fighting for survival. And it was
1:29:08
Speaker 1: the first time that I truly connected with her. I
1:29:11
Speaker 1: cannot tell you how many times the answer to this
1:29:14
Speaker 1: question has changed for people in my life. And I'm
1:29:15
Speaker 1: like careful which examples to use because I'm worried that
1:29:17
Speaker 1: they're going to be watching, but has changed my relationship
1:29:21
Speaker 1: with people in my life based on how they see themselves.
1:29:24
Speaker 1: Not how I see them, but how they see themselves.
1:29:27
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because there's so many people listening right
1:29:31
Speaker 2: now that are now doing that. And they're discovering, maybe
1:29:36
Speaker 2: for the first time, even how they see themselves. Because
1:29:38
Speaker 2: it's funny, because when you said that, obviously I did
1:29:40
Speaker 2: it in my head. And I was like, fuck.
1:29:44
Speaker 1: Well, now I want to know what it is. Will
1:29:45
Speaker 1: you tell me after?
1:29:46
Speaker 2: Stereotypically. No, I'll tell you now. I was thinking, it's
1:29:49
Speaker 2: funny because the first person I thought of was Will
1:29:51
Speaker 2: Smith because people say I look like him sometimes, right?
1:29:53
Speaker 1: Yes. And you have to correct someone. If someone says
1:29:55
Speaker 1: who they look like, you say, oh, no, no, no,
1:29:56
Speaker 1: you look like values personality.
1:29:58
Speaker 2: But then when I thought about TV characters, I actually
1:30:00
Speaker 2: thought about Will Smith in The Pursuit of Happiness. And
1:30:04
Speaker 2: if you think about his journey, he was broke and
1:30:06
Speaker 2: he was fighting really hard to get out of that situation.
1:30:09
Speaker 2: And he got out of that situation. So it goes
1:30:10
Speaker 2: back to the personality type you described at the beginning
1:30:12
Speaker 2: where like, Hero. Hero of your own journey. Like, well,
1:30:15
Speaker 2: you've overcome something.
1:30:18
Speaker 1: And do you feel you've found it?
1:30:21
Speaker 2: Found the.
1:30:22
Speaker 1: Found it?
1:30:22
Speaker 2: Happiness?
1:30:24
Speaker 1: Are you at the end of the movie?
1:30:26
Speaker 2: I'm at the end of the movie. I don't know
1:30:30
Speaker 2: if you can ever get to the end of the movie.
1:30:32
Speaker 2: That's why I'm struggling with that question.
1:30:33
Speaker 1: Because there's... Like, I think I've found it.
1:30:37
Speaker 2: But I've always... I don't know.
1:30:41
Speaker 1: Like, not the end of your movie. It's not the
1:30:42
Speaker 1: end of your life movie. But like, In that example,
1:30:45
Speaker 1: we could have a long discussion about, like, what is–
1:30:48
Speaker 1: have you made it?
1:30:50
Speaker 2: So the reason why I think I'm hesitating is because
1:30:53
Speaker 2: I think to myself, if I say I've made it
1:30:55
Speaker 2: or if I'm at the end of the movie, then
1:30:56
Speaker 2: I'm like– it kind of robs me of the future
1:30:58
Speaker 2: in a weird way. In my head, it's like robbing
1:31:00
Speaker 2: me of, like, doing anything else with my future. No,
1:31:02
Speaker 2: because– Do you know what I mean?
1:31:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yes. You see what I'm saying? If you
1:31:05
Speaker 1: feel like you– Like the end of the movie.
1:31:06
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, no.
1:31:08
Speaker 1: Yes, no, that's true. You're never at the end of
1:31:09
Speaker 1: the movie. But, like, if you feel that you've made it,
1:31:11
Speaker 1: it means you have freedom to– pursue things and do
1:31:15
Speaker 1: work for meaning as opposed to hitting it.
1:31:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Like I used to work in
1:31:22
Speaker 2: call centers at nighttime selling hotel rooms and car insurance
1:31:27
Speaker 2: and artificial grass. And now I get to sit here
1:31:29
Speaker 2: and have conversations with people like you and like people
1:31:31
Speaker 2: tune in and stuff. If I don't realize at this
1:31:33
Speaker 2: moment how much privilege I have, I think I'd be
1:31:38
Speaker 2: I'd be pretty fucked up. So yeah, I do feel
1:31:40
Speaker 2: like disproportionately, like unbelievably fortunate in a way that I
1:31:43
Speaker 2: actually don't think I can understand. I think maybe I
1:31:45
Speaker 2: dreamed of this, but to be here feels, feels suspicious. Suspicious?
1:31:55
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:31:55
Speaker 2: That's a strange word that came to mind.
1:31:56
Speaker 1: Yes.
1:31:57
Speaker 2: It feels suspicious because it, I don't know. You just think,
1:32:03
Speaker 2: you just think sometimes you think.
1:32:05
Speaker 1: Are you worried?
1:32:06
Speaker 2: Maybe it is worry, but it's also just like, surely not. Like,
1:32:11
Speaker 2: it's so interesting because I had the dream of like
1:32:13
Speaker 2: being successful in business, but I didn't have a dream
1:32:16
Speaker 2: of or ever imagine that my life would be like this,
1:32:21
Speaker 2: where like people know who you are. I never had
1:32:23
Speaker 2: that dream. Never imagined it being possible. That was other people.
1:32:26
Speaker 2: For sure. And so.
1:32:27
Speaker 1: Also, that's a very accurate, like that's how I think
1:32:31
Speaker 1: of Will Smith and the pursuit of happiness a little
1:32:33
Speaker 1: bit is like, You never really see him truly happy
1:32:36
Speaker 1: in that movie.
1:32:36
Speaker 2: No, he's always just, yeah, running.
1:32:38
Speaker 1: Like, that's something that I, that's why I asked, like,
1:32:41
Speaker 1: did you get it? You know, you pursued it. You're here.
1:32:44
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm still chasing after something, aren't I?
1:32:45
Speaker 1: That's what I think.
1:32:47
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm chasing after.
1:32:47
Speaker 1: I wonder what you're chasing after.
1:32:48
Speaker 2: I don't know. I actually don't know.
1:32:50
Speaker 1: But I think that you're interviewing for something. Like, when
1:32:52
Speaker 1: I watch your interviews, which are amazing, I'm like, he's
1:32:54
Speaker 1: trying to find the answer to something. What is it?
1:32:56
Speaker 2: Always. Like, with every person, it's a different thing. And actually,
1:32:59
Speaker 2: most of the answers, I'm looking for my own answers.
1:33:01
Speaker 2: And my general belief is that if I check, like
1:33:04
Speaker 2: authentically go in search of my own answers, which requires
1:33:07
Speaker 2: some level of like being open and willing to be open,
1:33:11
Speaker 2: even though there's a lot of people watching, then there'll
1:33:13
Speaker 2: be lots of other people out there that are struggling
1:33:14
Speaker 2: with the same things or searching for the same answers
1:33:16
Speaker 2: as well.
1:33:17
Speaker 1: Yes.
1:33:17
Speaker 2: This is interesting. I do ask myself a lot. What
1:33:19
Speaker 2: am I, like, what's the point? Like, what am I, like,
1:33:20
Speaker 2: what am I, but is it not, this is a
1:33:23
Speaker 2: bit of a tangent, obviously. Is it not the case
1:33:25
Speaker 2: that we should all be searching forever? Like we should
1:33:28
Speaker 2: all be in pursuit of something forever.
1:33:32
Speaker 1: I do love a quest and I love pursuing and
1:33:34
Speaker 1: I think humans are built to pursue things. But I
1:33:36
Speaker 1: also think, I hope, and I'm not here yet, I'm
1:33:39
Speaker 1: getting there, that there's a point in our life where
1:33:41
Speaker 1: we can stop the grind. I think I'm grinding a
1:33:44
Speaker 1: little bit in my career. I don't know if you
1:33:45
Speaker 1: feel like that. Like I've made it. I feel like
1:33:47
Speaker 1: I've made it. I'm luckier than I ever, I can't
1:33:50
Speaker 1: believe I get paid to do what I do, but
1:33:52
Speaker 1: I'm still pursuing, pursuing. I hope there's a point in
1:33:55
Speaker 1: my life where I can just be sharing wisdom, where
1:33:58
Speaker 1: I'm not pursuing anything. It's not a number or a
1:34:01
Speaker 1: list or a... It's just like all I'm doing is
1:34:03
Speaker 1: sharing wisdom and giving out public education. Like I think
1:34:08
Speaker 1: that I'm hopeful there is a stage of our life
1:34:10
Speaker 1: where it's just that.
1:34:12
Speaker 2: Number five on the one.
1:34:13
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
1:34:14
Speaker 2: We did Lean, which was number four.
1:34:16
Speaker 1: Number five is.
1:34:17
Speaker 2: Actually, I have to pause on Lean because I wanted
1:34:19
Speaker 2: to ask you about something I read in a book
1:34:21
Speaker 2: about peacocking.
1:34:22
Speaker 1: Yes.
1:34:23
Speaker 2: So I read in this pickup artist book that I
1:34:25
Speaker 2: read when I was 18 and some of the videos
1:34:27
Speaker 2: that I watched thereafter and some of the other books
1:34:28
Speaker 2: that I read thereafter and some of the other videos
1:34:29
Speaker 2: I watched thereafter about this. concept of peacocking where you can,
1:34:34
Speaker 2: if you're like on a date or you're interested in
1:34:36
Speaker 2: a girl or a guy in a bar, if you
1:34:38
Speaker 2: lean in too much, you're signaling low value and like over-interest.
1:34:42
Speaker 2: And ever since I learned that I've seen it everywhere.
1:34:45
Speaker 2: And I've seen it in my friends. Me and my
1:34:46
Speaker 2: friends went to like Marbella or somewhere.
1:34:48
Speaker 1: I can't remember.
1:34:48
Speaker 2: It was many, many years ago. And there was this
1:34:50
Speaker 2: beautiful girl there and we were all pursuing her. Yes.
1:34:54
Speaker 2: Like that, like a Labrador. And I was saying to
1:34:58
Speaker 2: my boys, there's actually a photo of it on my phone.
1:35:00
Speaker 2: It's me, Dom, and my friend Ash sat there. And
1:35:03
Speaker 2: we're looking over at some of our other friends. And
1:35:05
Speaker 2: we're saying, they're peacocking. They've got no chance. And that's
1:35:08
Speaker 2: how the story transpired. And then when this beautiful girl
1:35:10
Speaker 2: came over to my other friend, he was aware of
1:35:13
Speaker 2: this peacocking thing. He kept his neck back. He kept
1:35:15
Speaker 2: his chest back. All these kinds of things. He didn't
1:35:17
Speaker 2: lean in, even though it was loud. Closed. Closed.
1:35:22
Speaker 1: Okay. Here's why. Too much of a lean is a
1:35:26
Speaker 1: bad thing. It's called a bow. If you lean too
1:35:29
Speaker 1: far over, you get very quickly into bowing or submissive behavior.
1:35:33
Speaker 1: We don't like people who are submissive to us. We
1:35:35
Speaker 1: want equals. And so you're absolutely right. What triggers in
1:35:39
Speaker 1: the brain if you're leaning too much is literally I
1:35:41
Speaker 1: am subservient to you. And that makes someone who does
1:35:44
Speaker 1: not want to be in an unequal relationship feel very uneasy.
1:35:49
Speaker 1: So that is why too much of a lean, always
1:35:52
Speaker 1: with these nonverbal accusers, too much of a good thing.
1:35:54
Speaker 1: You lean too much, it's considered a bow. You also
1:35:57
Speaker 1: don't want to lean the entire time because then you
1:35:58
Speaker 1: look like a hunchback. Right?
1:36:00
Speaker 2: I'm lowering my value by leaning in too much.
1:36:03
Speaker 1: And it's distracting. Like, I want to lean in as
1:36:06
Speaker 1: a bold or a highlight. If I were to be
1:36:08
Speaker 1: reading a book and highlight the entire page, the highlight
1:36:10
Speaker 1: means nothing. If you lean in when someone's like, what?
1:36:14
Speaker 2: Really?
1:36:15
Speaker 1: And then I lean back, then it's powerful. Every single
1:36:18
Speaker 1: one of these cues we are using as a bold
1:36:20
Speaker 1: or an emphasis or a highlight. Just enough of a
1:36:23
Speaker 1: good thing. Okay.
1:36:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. Not too much leaning. Just use it as a
1:36:27
Speaker 2: party trick. No, no. No, I mean, just use it like.
1:36:32
Speaker 1: As a highlighter. As a highlighter. You're highlighting. Yes, yes, yes.
1:36:36
Speaker 2: Number five.
1:36:36
Speaker 1: Okay, five. Nonverbal bridge. So this is a concept that
1:36:40
Speaker 1: I learned on the road. So I saw this in
1:36:42
Speaker 1: action in a lot of our experiments. We did a
1:36:44
Speaker 1: big speed networking experiment in our lab where we had
1:36:46
Speaker 1: 500 speed networkers try out different conversation starters. We've recorded them.
1:36:51
Speaker 1: We coded their conversations and we looked for patterns of
1:36:53
Speaker 1: good and bad conversations. And we found there were certain
1:36:57
Speaker 1: questions that worked better than others. And there were certain
1:36:58
Speaker 1: questions that did terribly. And one thing we found is
1:37:01
Speaker 1: that when people rated a conversation on a five scale,
1:37:04
Speaker 1: like five amazing best conversations I had, we're going to
1:37:06
Speaker 1: connect on LinkedIn. I think I like them. The best ones,
1:37:09
Speaker 1: they used a lot of nonverbal bridges. Nonverbal bridges are
1:37:13
Speaker 1: when someone is trying to bridge the distance between you.
1:37:16
Speaker 1: So that could be a lean. Lean is one of them.
1:37:19
Speaker 1: But it also could be a reach out. We noticed
1:37:21
Speaker 1: that in the good conversations, People were trying to physically
1:37:25
Speaker 1: close the distance between them with hand gestures, with leans,
1:37:28
Speaker 1: with nods, with foot movement, with drinks. And when they
1:37:31
Speaker 1: were close enough, they would often do very light touches
1:37:34
Speaker 1: on the arms, on the shoulder. So have you seen
1:37:37
Speaker 1: this like on a really good date? Have you ever
1:37:38
Speaker 1: been in a restaurant? Like my husband and I like
1:37:39
Speaker 1: to play this game where we look and we try
1:37:41
Speaker 1: to guess a couple.
1:37:42
Speaker 2: Yes.
1:37:43
Speaker 1: Very like new couple, old couple, how they're doing. In
1:37:46
Speaker 1: a very good date, they are looking for as many
1:37:48
Speaker 1: opportunities to touch as they possibly can. That's nonverbal bridge.
1:37:51
Speaker 1: Even if I were to be like, oh, let me
1:37:52
Speaker 1: tell you something. like that slight reach out, top of
1:37:55
Speaker 1: the knuckles, top of the arm. That's a quick saying,
1:37:57
Speaker 1: I'm going to reach into your intimate zone, but I'm
1:37:59
Speaker 1: not going into your intimate zone. And really good relationships,
1:38:02
Speaker 1: really warm people are those, they are bridging all the time.
1:38:06
Speaker 1: They walk by you, they touch your shoulder. They say,
1:38:07
Speaker 1: how's it going? Hey, I was thinking about you. They're
1:38:10
Speaker 1: constantly doing these very small bridges. And that couldn't, might
1:38:14
Speaker 1: not be actual, a physical touch. It could even be
1:38:15
Speaker 1: the look of a touch. Like one thing that I
1:38:18
Speaker 1: teach my students who are uncomfortable with touch is you
1:38:20
Speaker 1: can even touch without touching. That sounds really weird, but
1:38:23
Speaker 1: like put your arm closer to me so I can
1:38:24
Speaker 1: demo it for you. So let's pretend that we're at dinner.
1:38:27
Speaker 1: I could be like, oh my gosh, really?
1:38:28
Speaker 2: Okay, so.
1:38:30
Speaker 1: you didn't touch me I didn't touch above my hand
1:38:32
Speaker 1: but it did the same thing yeah Not quite oxytocin.
1:38:34
Speaker 2: No, but it kind of did.
1:38:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're like, I get it.
1:38:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:38:37
Speaker 1: She's trying to close the intimacy of the distance. So
1:38:40
Speaker 1: nonverbal bridges, trying to reach out, reach into someone's face
1:38:43
Speaker 1: very briefly and come back, trying to lean into someone's
1:38:45
Speaker 1: face very briefly. This is why giving people things or
1:38:48
Speaker 1: serving people is such a warm thing. You hand someone
1:38:51
Speaker 1: a drink, like you come to my office, I offer
1:38:53
Speaker 1: you hot chocolate, I offer you tacos, I want to
1:38:55
Speaker 1: break the social scripts, I want to give you something different,
1:38:57
Speaker 1: and I'm looking for reasons to serve you.
1:38:59
Speaker 2: You give people tacos at your office? Yeah.
1:39:02
Speaker 1: I'm in Austin, Texas. You would like it. You would
1:39:07
Speaker 1: like it. If you were hungry, you'd be like, give
1:39:09
Speaker 1: me that taco. Give me that taco.
1:39:11
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's office food, but each to
1:39:14
Speaker 2: their own. So hugging and stuff like that, you know,
1:39:18
Speaker 2: there's this thing that people talk a lot about, which
1:39:20
Speaker 2: is awkward hugging. And sometimes you hug someone and you
1:39:22
Speaker 2: just feel like, oh God, they didn't like that. I
1:39:24
Speaker 2: didn't like that. That was bad for both of us.
1:39:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, horrible. Can we address the hug issue?
1:39:28
Speaker 2: Please. Okay.
1:39:29
Speaker 1: You need to signal what kind of greeting you want
1:39:32
Speaker 1: from the moment someone first sees you. You can stop
1:39:35
Speaker 1: awkward greetings from happening with simple nonverbal cues. Here's what
1:39:38
Speaker 1: they are. You want a handshake? So good to see you.
1:39:42
Speaker 1: I want you to be doing this from 10 feet away.
1:39:44
Speaker 1: So good to see you.
1:39:45
Speaker 2: I'll come in with it. Yeah.
1:39:46
Speaker 1: You're literally signaling to someone, so good to see you, right?
1:39:49
Speaker 1: This immediately signals their brain, don't try to give me
1:39:51
Speaker 1: an awkward hug. Don't side hug me. Don't hug me.
1:39:53
Speaker 1: We're handshaking. It is a very clear way to be like,
1:39:56
Speaker 1: it's called blading. So we angle our body a little
1:39:58
Speaker 1: bit forward and we put one hand out. You know
1:39:59
Speaker 1: I'm coming in for a handshake. If you want a
1:40:02
Speaker 1: hug and you're a hugger, it's so good to see you.
1:40:04
Speaker 1: It's so good to see you.
1:40:06
Speaker 2: Okay. Arms out.
1:40:07
Speaker 1: Arms out. And that's also going to prevent the awkward
1:40:10
Speaker 1: side hug. The worst thing you can do is like this.
1:40:13
Speaker 2: Which is a kind of butt.
1:40:15
Speaker 1: One arm up. People are like, do I shake it?
1:40:17
Speaker 1: Do I side hug? Are we going to hug? Are
1:40:19
Speaker 1: we going to high five? Are we going to fist bump?
1:40:20
Speaker 1: If you want a fist bump, you're coming in with
1:40:22
Speaker 1: a fist bump.
1:40:22
Speaker 2: Should I be a hugger? Because I don't, or is
1:40:25
Speaker 2: it context dependent?
1:40:27
Speaker 1: I do not like. hugging people when I first meet them.
1:40:31
Speaker 1: I was pitching a TV show about recovering awkward people.
1:40:35
Speaker 1: I had a very big network and I walk into
1:40:37
Speaker 1: the pitch room and at that point I was a
1:40:39
Speaker 1: hugger or I was, I thought I should hug because
1:40:41
Speaker 1: that was one of the things in LA. LA people
1:40:43
Speaker 1: are huggers and cheat kissers a lot. And so I
1:40:45
Speaker 1: was like, I walk into him and I say, oh,
1:40:47
Speaker 1: it's so nice to meet you. I'm a hugger.
1:40:49
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
1:40:50
Speaker 1: And the exec goes, I'm not.
1:40:53
Speaker 2: Oh.
1:40:54
Speaker 1: Just cringe.
1:40:56
Speaker 2: Oh God.
1:40:57
Speaker 1: Just, I died inside. I died inside. And you know what?
1:41:01
Speaker 1: That pitch went terribly. Do I have a TV show
1:41:03
Speaker 1: called Recovering Awkward Person? No, I don't. That's because I
1:41:06
Speaker 1: think I hugged him. And I went forward with it.
1:41:09
Speaker 2: Too much warmth. Too much warmth. Not enough competence.
1:41:14
Speaker 1: And so I will never do that again. So now
1:41:17
Speaker 1: I never, ever say I'm a hugger and I always
1:41:19
Speaker 1: offer my hand. Now, if someone says to me, oh,
1:41:21
Speaker 1: but I'm a hugger and they wave my hand away,
1:41:23
Speaker 1: no problem. No problem.
1:41:25
Speaker 2: That's interesting. If we take that back to the charisma
1:41:27
Speaker 2: framework of warmth and competence, it is signaling a little
1:41:30
Speaker 2: bit too much.
1:41:31
Speaker 1: A lot of warmth. It's a lot of warmth. And
1:41:33
Speaker 1: I know a lot about a person when they tell me,
1:41:35
Speaker 1: I'm a hugger.
1:41:36
Speaker 2: What do you know?
1:41:39
Speaker 1: High warmth, probably a people pleaser, over eager, really want
1:41:43
Speaker 1: to connect, probably feel lonely, a little bit afraid, and
1:41:45
Speaker 1: I want to make them feel as liked as possible.
1:41:49
Speaker 2: Gosh, that's a lot just from that one sentence.
1:41:52
Speaker 1: I've hugged a lot of people.
1:41:54
Speaker 2: No, it is.
1:41:55
Speaker 1: Also, you know, I have amazing students. You know, we
1:41:57
Speaker 1: have millions of views on our YouTube channel, and they
1:42:00
Speaker 1: feel like they know me. And so if they want
1:42:01
Speaker 1: to hug me, I'm totally okay with it because I've
1:42:04
Speaker 1: been in their bed. I've been in their living room.
1:42:06
Speaker 1: I've been in their kitchen TV, been on their phone.
1:42:08
Speaker 1: I've shared my stories with them, and I understand why
1:42:11
Speaker 1: they want to hug me because we feel like friends.
1:42:13
Speaker 1: And that actually is a compliment.
1:42:15
Speaker 2: And you like it.
1:42:16
Speaker 1: I do like it. Like when a student says, oh,
1:42:17
Speaker 1: my gosh, I love you. I love Captivate. I'm like,
1:42:20
Speaker 1: come here. It feels like a friend.
1:42:23
Speaker 2: So on the hugging point then as well, is there
1:42:25
Speaker 2: a great way to hug someone?
1:42:27
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah.
1:42:28
Speaker 2: How is that?
1:42:30
Speaker 1: Have you been told you're a good hugger? Because then
1:42:32
Speaker 1: you might not be.
1:42:33
Speaker 2: I've tried to work on it. So I think I
1:42:35
Speaker 2: am now. I actually have been told I am. But
1:42:38
Speaker 2: it's part of the reason why is because I've learned
1:42:40
Speaker 2: a lot from doing this podcast and someone told me,
1:42:42
Speaker 2: don't tap on the back.
1:42:43
Speaker 1: Don't tap on the back.
1:42:44
Speaker 2: And they told me to like.
1:42:45
Speaker 1: We don't like being tapped on the head. We don't
1:42:47
Speaker 1: like being tapped on the back. It's a submissive cue, right?
1:42:49
Speaker 1: It's like you'll notice on power players and politics, We'll
1:42:52
Speaker 1: sometimes demean someone by going, hey, bud.
1:42:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:42:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely don't hug. So you're going to want to
1:42:59
Speaker 1: approach equally. You don't want any kind of asymmetry in
1:43:02
Speaker 1: your hug, right? So that's why you want to approach
1:43:03
Speaker 1: someone like this, like no asymmetry, none of this. Straight on.
1:43:07
Speaker 1: So this is hard. If you are taller than the person,
1:43:09
Speaker 1: you typically want to go up, but you want to
1:43:11
Speaker 1: avoid like the who's going up, right? So the taller
1:43:14
Speaker 1: person should always try to go up, and you want
1:43:16
Speaker 1: to like literally angle up. The lower person is going
1:43:18
Speaker 1: to angle down, and you're going to try to go
1:43:20
Speaker 1: torso to torso, right?
1:43:22
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:43:23
Speaker 1: And I like a two second hug. By the way,
1:43:25
Speaker 1: there is research on the length of handshakes that I
1:43:27
Speaker 1: haven't seen research on the length of hugs, but a
1:43:30
Speaker 1: handshake should be between one and three pumps and one
1:43:33
Speaker 1: and three or one and three seconds. So for example,
1:43:36
Speaker 1: we're saying one, two, three, that's good. And typically they
1:43:40
Speaker 1: found that if we do a three second shake, it's
1:43:42
Speaker 1: with a new person. So our first shake was about
1:43:44
Speaker 1: three seconds because we didn't know each other. But if
1:43:46
Speaker 1: I were to see you again, like, oh, it's so
1:43:48
Speaker 1: good to see you.
1:43:51
Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
1:43:52
Speaker 1: So typically, if you already know someone, you're just like
1:43:54
Speaker 1: doing a quick reading, it's a one second. And if
1:43:55
Speaker 1: you don't know someone, it's a three second.
1:43:57
Speaker 2: What if.
1:44:00
Speaker 1: I.
1:44:00
Speaker 2: Your face is like, what seconds? You're like offended. You're like,
1:44:04
Speaker 2: not my person. You're like, you cussed me out with
1:44:07
Speaker 2: your eyes. Yeah, I was like, horrible.
1:44:08
Speaker 1: That's how I feel.
1:44:09
Speaker 2: I was giving my arm back.
1:44:11
Speaker 1: You also want to make sure that when you're doing
1:44:12
Speaker 1: a handshake, you're offering thumb up. Thumb up is really important.
1:44:17
Speaker 1: You'll notice a certain... political power players will hear if, yeah,
1:44:23
Speaker 1: so they'll flip you.
1:44:24
Speaker 2: Oh, Donald Trump. Yes. And he like really pulls.
1:44:28
Speaker 1: And he'll pull you. He'll pull you off. I've never
1:44:30
Speaker 1: shaken hands with him, so I don't know. But I've
1:44:32
Speaker 1: watched many, many a video and he'll shake your hand,
1:44:35
Speaker 1: turn you up. This is a very vulnerable place to be.
1:44:37
Speaker 1: We don't like it as humans to have these arteries up.
1:44:40
Speaker 1: So he'll flip. So he'll flip. And he'll pull you
1:44:43
Speaker 1: off there.
1:44:44
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel good, does it? But what does that signal?
1:44:47
Speaker 2: Does that signal competence and strength?
1:44:50
Speaker 1: No, I don't think it's either. I actually think it's
1:44:52
Speaker 1: a danger zone.
1:44:53
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:44:53
Speaker 1: Because it's purposely, I don't, none of the cues I
1:44:57
Speaker 1: teach are manipulative in that way. Like that is purposely
1:44:59
Speaker 1: trying to get someone off balance, like to give them disequilibrium.
1:45:03
Speaker 1: I like relationships to be equal. That's why I want
1:45:05
Speaker 1: you to offer a thumb up. I want, I also
1:45:07
Speaker 1: don't want you to open, you know, offer your hand like,
1:45:08
Speaker 1: you know, up where you're saying I'm going to be
1:45:10
Speaker 1: submissive to you. We don't like that, right? So Thumb up.
1:45:14
Speaker 2: I can't remember where I learned it, but I learned
1:45:16
Speaker 2: that if you cup, then it's signaling warmth.
1:45:19
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
1:45:19
Speaker 2: I was going to cup earlier on, but I was
1:45:20
Speaker 2: holding some stuff. I remember thinking, I'll walk out there
1:45:23
Speaker 2: and I'll cup.
1:45:24
Speaker 1: Why did I get my cup?
1:45:25
Speaker 2: Because I was holding all your books.
1:45:26
Speaker 1: It is warm.
1:45:27
Speaker 2: I was holding your books. I was like, I can't
1:45:28
Speaker 2: imagine if I tried to cup with your books. It
1:45:31
Speaker 2: would be so strange.
1:45:32
Speaker 1: No, so cupping is really warm. It's double the warmth.
1:45:35
Speaker 1: It's double the oxytocin. It's like a hand hug. So
1:45:37
Speaker 1: it's super high and warm. It's also called the politician's handshake.
1:45:40
Speaker 1: So you only want to do it if you are
1:45:42
Speaker 1: truly and genuinely trying to show warmth. Otherwise, it can
1:45:45
Speaker 1: come across as forced.
1:45:46
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:45:47
Speaker 1: I also, speaking of like weird signals, I've heard this
1:45:50
Speaker 1: about men, that men to men have two different kinds
1:45:54
Speaker 1: of nods. Tell me if you think this is true.
1:45:57
Speaker 1: So if you walk down the hallway and you see
1:45:59
Speaker 1: a man you know, you go, hey, nod up. If
1:46:04
Speaker 1: you see a man you don't know, you go, mornin'.
1:46:07
Speaker 1: And you nod down.
1:46:08
Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting.
1:46:09
Speaker 1: And supposedly it's because a person you know, you're willing
1:46:11
Speaker 1: to expose this part of your neck. But if you
1:46:14
Speaker 1: don't know someone, you want to keep your chin down.
1:46:16
Speaker 1: But you're still acknowledging them. Is that true?
1:46:18
Speaker 2: Well, do you know what's funny? The way that I
1:46:21
Speaker 2: think about it is if I see a black guy. Okay.
1:46:23
Speaker 2: Out and about.
1:46:24
Speaker 1: Okay.
1:46:26
Speaker 2: Pretty much anywhere. And they know me, whatever. They'll typically
1:46:30
Speaker 2: do that. There's something about... I don't know if I'm
1:46:33
Speaker 2: just making this up. But there's something about... Like being
1:46:36
Speaker 2: part of, I can see them from across the room,
1:46:39
Speaker 2: have no idea who they are. In group. It's like me.
1:46:42
Speaker 1: And you are boys. And I trust you. It's a
1:46:45
Speaker 1: way of being like, I'm willing to expose this. I
1:46:47
Speaker 1: trust you.
1:46:48
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. So interesting. Interesting.
1:46:51
Speaker 1: So I've noticed that. Women don't do that.
1:46:54
Speaker 2: Okay. Oh, yes.
1:46:57
Speaker 1: Knocked down is stranger. Morning.
1:47:00
Speaker 2: So interesting.
1:47:01
Speaker 1: Got noted.
1:47:03
Speaker 2: So interesting. So, so interesting. I'm a CEO. I do
1:47:09
Speaker 2: speaking on stage. You speak on stage as well. You're very,
1:47:12
Speaker 2: very good at it. Is there anything that I should
1:47:13
Speaker 2: know if I'm a leader in a business or I'm
1:47:16
Speaker 2: a public speaker that I should be thinking most about
1:47:18
Speaker 2: when I'm up on stage to signal, I don't know,
1:47:20
Speaker 2: whatever I want to signal to get whatever I want?
1:47:22
Speaker 1: Yes. Purposeful movement. A big mistake I see CEOs make
1:47:27
Speaker 1: on stage is they either don't have purposeful movements, they
1:47:30
Speaker 1: pace the stage back and forth, or they're stuck in
1:47:34
Speaker 1: one point and they don't move from that point and
1:47:36
Speaker 1: it makes them look very stiff. I believe you should
1:47:38
Speaker 1: block your speeches just very subtly. So for example, I always,
1:47:43
Speaker 1: when I deliver, I start in the middle of the stage, always, always.
1:47:46
Speaker 1: So when I'm being introduced, right, your first few seconds
1:47:49
Speaker 1: on stage is the most important for your entire talk.
1:47:51
Speaker 1: So as you're being introduced, you walk on stage, pick
1:47:54
Speaker 1: a point and walk purposely to it. Don't meander onto stage.
1:47:59
Speaker 1: You're walking right to the middle of the stage or
1:48:00
Speaker 1: the left of the stage, however you pick, And you're
1:48:02
Speaker 1: delivering your first opening lines, opening story in that middle point.
1:48:06
Speaker 1: That's where I like it. And that intention of walking
1:48:08
Speaker 1: on stage is going to make you look so much
1:48:10
Speaker 1: more confident and not disorganized or ambiguous. Then, if you can,
1:48:17
Speaker 1: this is for the advanced speaker and this is you,
1:48:18
Speaker 1: I think. you want to help your audience with your
1:48:21
Speaker 1: stage movement. So in my presentations, when I'm sharing science
1:48:26
Speaker 1: or fact or research, I'm on the left-hand side of
1:48:28
Speaker 1: the stage. When I'm moving to personal story, gifts, anecdotes,
1:48:32
Speaker 1: or a funny video, I'm on the right side of
1:48:34
Speaker 1: the stage. That is a way I'm helping my audience
1:48:37
Speaker 1: organize and categorize my talks. I've also noticed In the audience,
1:48:40
Speaker 1: there are highly warm people and there are highly competent people.
1:48:44
Speaker 1: I've noticed if I train them that way, I'm doing
1:48:46
Speaker 1: a 60-minute keynote, they begin to subconsciously recognize it. My
1:48:50
Speaker 1: highly competent folks perk right up. I get to the
1:48:53
Speaker 1: left side of the stage. Oh, this is for me.
1:48:55
Speaker 1: And my highly warm folks are like, huh, my turn.
1:48:58
Speaker 1: And it really helps them know when to pay the
1:49:00
Speaker 1: most attention. So you should think about for your talks.
1:49:03
Speaker 1: You also can do this chronologically. Some of my students
1:49:05
Speaker 1: are like TED speakers and they're telling more of a
1:49:07
Speaker 1: chronological story as opposed to like making points. I will
1:49:11
Speaker 1: often teach them to start, like we like to, you know,
1:49:14
Speaker 1: in Western cultures, we read from left to right. I
1:49:16
Speaker 1: like them to actually start on the left-hand side of
1:49:18
Speaker 1: the stage or the audience's left because the beginning of
1:49:21
Speaker 1: their story starts here and they share their childhood. There's
1:49:24
Speaker 1: a picture of their childhood on the slide and they
1:49:26
Speaker 1: slowly begin to move over to the middle when the
1:49:27
Speaker 1: middle part of their journey happens and they finally get
1:49:30
Speaker 1: to their arc, their knowledge, their aha moment. They're finally,
1:49:32
Speaker 1: they've made it over to the far side of the stage,
1:49:34
Speaker 1: the far right side of the stage.
1:49:36
Speaker 2: And in terms of what I'm saying, we talked a
1:49:38
Speaker 2: little bit about the actual content of what I'm saying,
1:49:41
Speaker 2: because this applies not just to when I'm on stage,
1:49:43
Speaker 2: but also to emails and WhatsApps. And I think most
1:49:45
Speaker 2: of our communication these days is on a screen. So
1:49:49
Speaker 2: if I'm trying to be a master of structuring a
1:49:52
Speaker 2: sentence on a screen to set people up for success,
1:49:58
Speaker 2: what have I got to be thinking about?
1:50:01
Speaker 1: What emotion do you want your person to feel when
1:50:04
Speaker 1: they see your name? In their inbox, on stage, in LinkedIn.
1:50:10
Speaker 1: That is the emotion that you want to label yourself.
1:50:14
Speaker 1: So for example, in your talks, like for example, in
1:50:17
Speaker 1: my talks, I am trying to acknowledge the pain of awkwardness.
1:50:22
Speaker 1: I don't want people to feel like they are unseen.
1:50:24
Speaker 1: So when I say you're overlooked, you're misunderstood, you're underestimated,
1:50:29
Speaker 1: you feel awkward and out of control and anxious and overwhelmed,
1:50:31
Speaker 1: I hear you. You're not alone. I've been there. And
1:50:35
Speaker 1: then the solution to that feeling, the where it gets better,
1:50:38
Speaker 1: is confidence and presence and memorability. And the mechanism is
1:50:42
Speaker 1: blueprints and formula and hard skills. That helps me gift
1:50:49
Speaker 1: to the audience a solution emotion. So for you, I
1:50:51
Speaker 1: would say, what are the pain points you want your
1:50:54
Speaker 1: audience to resonate with so they feel heard by you,
1:50:56
Speaker 1: seen by you, understood by you? What's the goal emotion
1:51:00
Speaker 1: that you want to give them from your talk, from
1:51:02
Speaker 1: your podcast, from the email that they're subscribing to? And
1:51:05
Speaker 1: then what's your mechanism? What's your way that you do that?
1:51:08
Speaker 2: Imperfection. So imperfection. I was watching a video of yours,
1:51:13
Speaker 2: I think from 10 years ago, where you sat with
1:51:15
Speaker 2: two lovely people talking about charisma. And one of the
1:51:18
Speaker 2: things you said earlier in the video is that, I
1:51:21
Speaker 2: think it was like TV shopping or something like that,
1:51:23
Speaker 2: where like a lady made a mistake. She spilled a
1:51:26
Speaker 2: milkshake or something.
1:51:26
Speaker 1: Yes.
1:51:27
Speaker 2: And she did more sales because she spilled a milkshake?
1:51:29
Speaker 1: Yes, that's it.
1:51:30
Speaker 2: Explain this to me.
1:51:31
Speaker 1: Yes, another study by Dr. Richard Wiseman. who wanted to know,
1:51:35
Speaker 1: do you have to be perfect? Which for many years,
1:51:38
Speaker 1: I wanted to be perfect. And then I realized, oh,
1:51:41
Speaker 1: there is no such thing as perfect. And I don't
1:51:42
Speaker 1: want to be that way. Very simple. He had a
1:51:45
Speaker 1: model selling a blender in a mall. And in one version,
1:51:49
Speaker 1: she had the perfect pitch. And I'll take your strawberries
1:51:51
Speaker 1: and your bananas and just hit the button and here
1:51:53
Speaker 1: you have perfect smoothies. And the second one, he had
1:51:57
Speaker 1: same smoothie, same pitch, same verbal, but she spills the
1:52:00
Speaker 1: smoothie on the table as she's pouring it. People bought
1:52:03
Speaker 1: more of the blender when she spilled the smoothie. Now,
1:52:07
Speaker 1: does this mean I want you to purposely spill your smoothies? No.
1:52:10
Speaker 1: I did have a piece of kale in my teeth earlier,
1:52:12
Speaker 1: and I really considered coming in with it just to
1:52:14
Speaker 1: see what would happen. I did. I did. I did
1:52:16
Speaker 1: think about it, but I didn't do it. But I
1:52:19
Speaker 1: do think there's like, stop trying to be perfect. Own
1:52:23
Speaker 1: your authentic vulnerabilities. Don't purposely spill a smoothie. Don't purposely
1:52:26
Speaker 1: spill your coffee. By the way, that experiment was repeated
1:52:28
Speaker 1: with coffee and job interviews. If I remember correctly— They
1:52:32
Speaker 1: had an audio clip and hirers were rating job candidates
1:52:36
Speaker 1: on performance. And in one of the audio clips, they
1:52:38
Speaker 1: had him spill his coffee. Oh, whoops, oops, oops, sorry
1:52:41
Speaker 1: about that. I spilled my coffee. Let's cut that. And
1:52:43
Speaker 1: then go back to the interview. And they rated that
1:52:45
Speaker 1: candidate as a better candidate, even though he spilled his coffee.
1:52:49
Speaker 2: Why?
1:52:50
Speaker 1: It's called the other shoe effect. We know that every,
1:52:53
Speaker 1: no one's perfect. We know this, it's impossible. And so
1:52:56
Speaker 1: when we're interacting with someone, even on a commercial, even interview,
1:52:59
Speaker 1: we're like, what's wrong with you? What is your imperfection?
1:53:05
Speaker 1: And it kind of distracts us that this research, The
1:53:07
Speaker 1: Other Shoe Effect, found the longer the interview goes on
1:53:10
Speaker 1: without something dropped, like without the other shoe to drop,
1:53:13
Speaker 1: the more the interviewer is like, hmm, what's going on here?
1:53:17
Speaker 1: And the more they'll try to ask questions to try
1:53:19
Speaker 1: to find it. You are better off in an interview
1:53:21
Speaker 1: or on a date dropping your shoe. So sharing whatever
1:53:25
Speaker 1: that vulnerability or imperfection is, closer to the start of
1:53:28
Speaker 1: the interview or the date, because it helps the other person, A,
1:53:31
Speaker 1: get to know you better, but also not be so
1:53:33
Speaker 1: worried that they're not seeing your true imperfection. Captivate, when
1:53:37
Speaker 1: I first wrote it, my intro was really, really boring.
1:53:43
Speaker 1: And my publisher, I love her, Nikki, my editor, wrote
1:53:46
Speaker 1: back and she's like, Vanessa, your intro doesn't sound like you.
1:53:49
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're trying to be something you're not.
1:53:51
Speaker 1: And she was right. I was trying to sound like
1:53:53
Speaker 1: an academic researcher. I'm not an academic researcher. I'm a
1:53:56
Speaker 1: behavior researcher. I'm a pop scientist. I'm a recovering awkward person.
1:53:59
Speaker 1: She's like, start with that. So the opening line of
1:54:02
Speaker 1: Captivate is, hi, I'm Vanessa. I'm a recovering awkward person.
1:54:06
Speaker 1: That is why that book hit the bestseller list. I
1:54:09
Speaker 1: dropped the shoe. Yes, I teach charisma. Yes, I teach
1:54:12
Speaker 1: body language. I am still in recovery. I am still
1:54:15
Speaker 1: constantly worried that people hate me. I have a small
1:54:17
Speaker 1: and wonderful group of friends, but otherwise people make me
1:54:19
Speaker 1: still nervous. I know how to deal with it. I
1:54:21
Speaker 1: know how to make conversation, but I want you to
1:54:24
Speaker 1: know There's still awkwardness here. No matter how many of
1:54:27
Speaker 1: these you learn, you're probably still going to face awkwardness
1:54:30
Speaker 1: and overwhelm, but at least it will be a little
1:54:31
Speaker 1: bit easier. So I think it's really important that we
1:54:36
Speaker 1: plan to share our inner perfections and not try to
1:54:38
Speaker 1: hide it.
1:54:40
Speaker 2: Personal branding is a big thing now because we have
1:54:43
Speaker 2: social media, we have LinkedIn. It's a big part of
1:54:45
Speaker 2: what gets you a job and gets you opportunities and
1:54:46
Speaker 2: gets you speaking appointments and book deals, et cetera. So
1:54:49
Speaker 2: everybody is, well, most people are playing the game of
1:54:51
Speaker 2: personal branding to some degree. So- As you were saying
1:54:55
Speaker 2: about being perfect and showing imperfections, again, it feels like
1:54:59
Speaker 2: there's a, there's like a, like a, is gradient the
1:55:03
Speaker 2: right word? Spectrum. Spectrum. That's a nice word.
1:55:06
Speaker 1: For sure.
1:55:07
Speaker 2: You can go too far with imperfection.
1:55:09
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
1:55:09
Speaker 2: Me and my friends call this deficiency promotion.
1:55:11
Speaker 1: What?
1:55:12
Speaker 2: And then on the other end of the spectrum, you've
1:55:13
Speaker 2: got ideas promotion, which is like when you're all about like,
1:55:15
Speaker 2: look how smart I am and these are my ideas.
1:55:17
Speaker 2: And deficiency promotion is look how traumatized, broken, sick, ill
1:55:23
Speaker 2: I am. And you build a whole brand around that.
1:55:27
Speaker 2: And you can like, you know, so you're probably still
1:55:31
Speaker 2: going to get speaking appointments either side because, you know,
1:55:34
Speaker 2: they're going to want people to speak about this stuff,
1:55:35
Speaker 2: but also this stuff. But I think you have to
1:55:37
Speaker 2: be quite intentional about how you show up on this spectrum.
1:55:39
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, what's true? The very first question
1:55:42
Speaker 1: is like, don't purposely spill the smoothie.
1:55:44
Speaker 2: But you know what's interesting is when you build a brand,
1:55:47
Speaker 2: it becomes self-reinforcing. So I see people on both sides
1:55:51
Speaker 2: of the spectrum. Maybe they started in the middle and
1:55:54
Speaker 2: then they got likes and followers that.
1:55:56
Speaker 1: Are like, go further.
1:55:58
Speaker 2: What else is wrong with you? That's why we love you.
1:56:00
Speaker 1: You're so broken. Totally. I think that there are people
1:56:03
Speaker 1: who are locked into being broken and being messy and
1:56:06
Speaker 1: people don't want to see them triumph. However... I think
1:56:10
Speaker 1: it is important to show people if you are very
1:56:12
Speaker 1: broken and in a bad point and a bad stage
1:56:14
Speaker 1: in your life, like show it and then show them
1:56:16
Speaker 1: how you're a hero out of it. That can inspire
1:56:18
Speaker 1: other heroes.
1:56:19
Speaker 2: I agree. But is there such a thing as spending
1:56:22
Speaker 2: too long in either camp? Do you know what I mean?
1:56:24
Speaker 2: Because we like a little bit of, oh, you had
1:56:26
Speaker 2: a bad day. Great. But you have a bad life.
1:56:29
Speaker 1: Different strokes for different folks. I think there are people
1:56:31
Speaker 1: who would stay all over there forever. Yeah, but.
1:56:34
Speaker 2: If you're there for 10 years where you're just every
1:56:36
Speaker 2: day you're showing up like another shit day for me
1:56:38
Speaker 2: for 10 years.
1:56:39
Speaker 1: I think they would still get likes. They would.
1:56:41
Speaker 2: Of course they would.
1:56:42
Speaker 1: I think it would be okay. I mean, it would
1:56:44
Speaker 1: be miserable for you as a person, but if that's
1:56:46
Speaker 1: your brand, that's your brand.
1:56:47
Speaker 2: I guess you said the most important thing, which is like,
1:56:50
Speaker 2: who are you?
1:56:50
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like if that's the truth, if you're having a
1:56:52
Speaker 1: decade of.
1:56:54
Speaker 2: Then be honest.
1:56:55
Speaker 1: You've got a decade of it.
1:56:57
Speaker 2: It's interesting with social media that I think social media
1:57:00
Speaker 2: started in a place where it was, you know, the
1:57:02
Speaker 2: margarita on the beach. And that was in such high
1:57:06
Speaker 2: supply that something else became in greater supply, which was
1:57:09
Speaker 2: being a bit more honest and open about it.
1:57:10
Speaker 1: Stretch marks on the beach.
1:57:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Stretch marks on the beach.
1:57:12
Speaker 1: That's exactly what happened. And those are people who've gone
1:57:14
Speaker 1: viral from those kind of posts. I do want to
1:57:16
Speaker 1: say something about personal branding. I think about it a
1:57:18
Speaker 1: little bit differently. So in the very last section of cues,
1:57:21
Speaker 1: I talk about visual cues. We have to remember that
1:57:25
Speaker 1: the cues in our brand, the colors we wear, what's
1:57:28
Speaker 1: behind you in your background, the props you're holding in
1:57:31
Speaker 1: your picture, what's behind you in your videos, They're triggering
1:57:35
Speaker 1: neural networks. So for example, they've researched this. If I
1:57:39
Speaker 1: say free associate to fire truck, you might say red, engine, dog,
1:57:46
Speaker 1: and you might start to associate different words. There are
1:57:48
Speaker 1: really common neural networks. So what you want to think
1:57:51
Speaker 1: about is what neural networks are you triggering in your
1:57:54
Speaker 1: personal brand? So for example, I like you to create
1:57:59
Speaker 1: strong neural networks. All of my single students, my students
1:58:02
Speaker 1: who are dating, I say your profile picture should be
1:58:05
Speaker 1: triggering all kinds of neural networks that you like. So
1:58:09
Speaker 1: if you love... skiing, you should be on a slope
1:58:12
Speaker 1: holding skis because for some people that will trigger a
1:58:15
Speaker 1: fear neural network, right? Like I'm not a skier. I
1:58:18
Speaker 1: see skis, I'm like cold, scared, alone, right? Like knees hurting.
1:58:24
Speaker 1: Like that's what I think when I see skis. I
1:58:26
Speaker 1: would not be a good partner for them. But someone
1:58:28
Speaker 1: else is going to be like adventure, family, fun, vacations.
1:58:32
Speaker 1: That's your person. Every picture on your profile should be
1:58:35
Speaker 1: creating allergies and attractors, should be activating neural networks for
1:58:39
Speaker 1: your person. You want them to have similar neural networks
1:58:42
Speaker 1: to you. My husband and I, I think if you
1:58:44
Speaker 1: were to show us both pictures of the same things,
1:58:46
Speaker 1: we would have very similar neural networks for different vacations,
1:58:49
Speaker 1: different props, different foods, different activities. And that's because we
1:58:53
Speaker 1: have similar ways of thinking. We are very different. But
1:58:56
Speaker 1: we activate the same similar neural networks for pain and pleasure.
1:59:00
Speaker 2: Okay. I had a conversation with a really good friend
1:59:01
Speaker 2: of mine about this.
1:59:02
Speaker 1: Okay.
1:59:03
Speaker 2: They are looking for a partner. Okay. And they are
1:59:06
Speaker 2: approaching their 40s. And they were asking me about their Instagram.
1:59:10
Speaker 2: And the first thing I noticed about their Instagram is
1:59:13
Speaker 2: I would say 80% of pictures, they're holding a cocktail
1:59:16
Speaker 2: or a drink of alcohol. Now, as I looked at
1:59:20
Speaker 2: the Instagram, I go, oh, party girl. I don't think
1:59:23
Speaker 2: like settle down and. Let's have a family. Absolutely.
1:59:26
Speaker 1: Does she want to have a family?
1:59:27
Speaker 2: Yes.
1:59:27
Speaker 1: Okay, wrong pictures. Okay. She is activating the wrong neural
1:59:31
Speaker 1: networks for men. She's dating men?
1:59:33
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:59:33
Speaker 1: She's dating the wrong... Men are going to look at
1:59:35
Speaker 1: that and be like, party girl, fun, out, not the
1:59:38
Speaker 1: mother of my children. So those are creating allergies for
1:59:41
Speaker 1: the ideal man.
1:59:42
Speaker 2: So what does she need to change?
1:59:44
Speaker 1: She needs... Okay, so what kind of husband and father
1:59:47
Speaker 1: does she want? Does she want an outdoor lover?
1:59:49
Speaker 2: A good one that can... She said to me, I
1:59:51
Speaker 2: want a good one that can help me with some
1:59:52
Speaker 2: of these overheads. Overheads. Bills. She doesn't want him to
1:59:59
Speaker 2: pay all the bills. She just wants to help with
2:00:00
Speaker 2: the fucking bills.
2:00:01
Speaker 1: Okay, so a hard worker.
2:00:02
Speaker 2: She earns a lot of money.
2:00:03
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's pictures of her, you know, working hard
2:00:05
Speaker 1: at a conference. What kind of way does she spend
2:00:07
Speaker 1: her weekend? She's hiking or she's biking or she's running
2:00:10
Speaker 1: across the Brooklyn Bridge or she's running a marathon or
2:00:12
Speaker 1: she loves dogs or she loves cats or she's eating
2:00:15
Speaker 1: big waffles and pancakes. Like, she should be taking pictures
2:00:18
Speaker 1: of what she wants to do with her partner so
2:00:20
Speaker 1: that they look at that and they're like, I want
2:00:22
Speaker 1: to join her for that. And you also want to
2:00:26
Speaker 1: create allergies. You don't want to appeal to everyone because
2:00:28
Speaker 1: you're going to go on bad dates.
2:00:29
Speaker 2: The other thing I know about this person is something
2:00:31
Speaker 2: you said about earlier. It's just that their body language,
2:00:34
Speaker 2: as I think about it, it's just so, it's like
2:00:36
Speaker 2: trying to take up less space, is the way I
2:00:37
Speaker 2: can describe it.
2:00:38
Speaker 1: Contracted.
2:00:38
Speaker 2: Exactly like that.
2:00:39
Speaker 1: Right. So when we talk about distance between, like, so
2:00:43
Speaker 1: earlobe and shoulder, distance number one. Second distance is important,
2:00:46
Speaker 1: between your arm and your torso. Okay. In a good conversation,
2:00:50
Speaker 1: we have distance that's fluctuating a lot. Like, right, I'm talking,
2:00:52
Speaker 1: my arms are going out. You're seeing distance between my
2:00:54
Speaker 1: torso and my arm. People who are very anxious.
2:00:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, like in, like just like a pencil.
2:00:59
Speaker 1: Or like penguin. I call it penguin where they like
2:01:02
Speaker 1: don't ever release their arms from their torso and they're
2:01:05
Speaker 1: very contracted. They have very minimal hand gestures and they'll
2:01:08
Speaker 1: often clutch something to their chest. Now, if I were
2:01:10
Speaker 1: to give the entire interview like this, you would think,
2:01:12
Speaker 1: oh man, she is nervous or she's you know, afraid
2:01:16
Speaker 1: or she's anxious because I don't have that space. The
2:01:19
Speaker 1: moment I release that space, it makes me look more confident.
2:01:21
Speaker 1: So that's another distance you can play with. Hand gestures
2:01:25
Speaker 1: really help with that. Hand gestures help with space, with
2:01:28
Speaker 1: vocal variety, with comprehension. That's why I like them so much.
2:01:32
Speaker 2: So if I'm trying to get her a husband, I'd
2:01:34
Speaker 2: like to. We've been friends for a long time, almost
2:01:36
Speaker 2: a decade. And I have sat in the passenger seat
2:01:39
Speaker 2: of her life and tried to be a supportive friend
2:01:41
Speaker 2: in any way. But if I tried to give her
2:01:42
Speaker 2: advice in terms of cues and body language and sentences
2:01:46
Speaker 2: on how to get a partner, where do we start?
2:01:48
Speaker 1: Okay. So one, let's get her some pictures that are
2:01:51
Speaker 1: going to attract the right person and create allergies for
2:01:53
Speaker 1: the wrong person. Two, her main profile pictures should be
2:01:57
Speaker 1: showing warm and competent body language. Authentic smile, maybe a
2:02:02
Speaker 1: head tilt. Maybe you have a hand gesture. Maybe that's
2:02:05
Speaker 1: too much warmth. I want to see a lot of
2:02:06
Speaker 1: space between your earlobe and your shoulder. Make sure it's
2:02:09
Speaker 1: a symmetrical smile. Make sure we're not contempt. Make sure
2:02:12
Speaker 1: we're not accidentally fear smiling.
2:02:14
Speaker 2: Right?
2:02:14
Speaker 1: So the profile picture is number one most important.
2:02:18
Speaker 2: Yes.
2:02:19
Speaker 1: Okay.
2:02:21
Speaker 2: It's a lot, but okay.
2:02:22
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. It's going to be hard. We've got to
2:02:24
Speaker 1: find her husband.
2:02:25
Speaker 2: We haven't got much time either.
2:02:26
Speaker 1: Okay. We've got to find her husband. The interpersonal body
2:02:31
Speaker 1: language is really hard as a friend to correct on someone.
2:02:34
Speaker 1: May I ask you, does she use vocal fry?
2:02:36
Speaker 2: What's that?
2:02:38
Speaker 1: Does she ever talk like this where it's kind of
2:02:40
Speaker 1: like a frying pan where she's not using her full voice? Typically,
2:02:43
Speaker 1: people who use contracted small body language often have that
2:02:47
Speaker 1: kind of a vocal power. And so they go into
2:02:50
Speaker 1: a pattern like this and then like, oh, like, I mean,
2:02:53
Speaker 1: I just like watered the plants this weekend and like, oof.
2:02:57
Speaker 2: Also, the intonation, the end of the sentence goes up.
2:03:00
Speaker 1: Right. So. That's the first thing I would actually try
2:03:03
Speaker 1: to help her with is making sure that she does
2:03:06
Speaker 1: not accidentally use vocal fry. It's usually an accident. Here's
2:03:09
Speaker 1: the fastest way to get rid of vocal fry. If
2:03:11
Speaker 1: you are using it, you hear yourself using it or
2:03:13
Speaker 1: someone else is using it, just speak louder. Vocal fry
2:03:17
Speaker 1: happens from a lack of breath. What actually is happening
2:03:20
Speaker 1: is you're speaking and your vocal cords are rattling. It's
2:03:24
Speaker 1: a terrible noise, but it's my vocal cords rattling together.
2:03:26
Speaker 1: And the moment that I speak louder, it goes away.
2:03:29
Speaker 1: It goes away. So oftentimes when we're lacking confidence or
2:03:32
Speaker 1: we have tight body, we have less breath and we
2:03:34
Speaker 1: create vocal fry. So just ask her to speak up
2:03:36
Speaker 1: a little bit.
2:03:36
Speaker 2: Okay.
2:03:39
Speaker 1: It's hard to get someone to stand more broadly because
2:03:43
Speaker 1: if they're uncomfortable with it, they don't like it. So
2:03:45
Speaker 1: what I would recommend is she should do activity dates.
2:03:49
Speaker 1: When you're at dinner with someone or at brunch or
2:03:50
Speaker 1: a coffee at a bar, you're like this. So what
2:03:53
Speaker 1: do you do? And you're like, it's shriveled. And you're
2:03:56
Speaker 1: like clutching your drink and you're in your patterns. You're
2:03:59
Speaker 1: in those patterns. Go on hikes. Go play pickleball. Go
2:04:03
Speaker 1: learn pickleball. Go play ping pong. Like do something physical
2:04:06
Speaker 1: because then it's much easier to be broad.
2:04:11
Speaker 2: Interesting. Okay. That makes a lot of sense actually. Yeah.
2:04:13
Speaker 2: Because you're going to, if it's in a context you're
2:04:15
Speaker 2: super familiar with, the old patterns are going to be triggered. Yes.
2:04:18
Speaker 1: And I've tried to get people to stand more broadly
2:04:20
Speaker 1: just by telling them. And it helps. The awareness helps.
2:04:23
Speaker 1: But it's much easier when you're actually in a context
2:04:25
Speaker 1: that helps you be that way.
2:04:27
Speaker 2: I read a study from your work that said in
2:04:30
Speaker 2: a study to see how men and women look at
2:04:32
Speaker 2: body language differently, they put people in an MRI machine
2:04:36
Speaker 2: and had them try and read body language from just
2:04:38
Speaker 2: pictures alone. What happened? What did they find out?
2:04:42
Speaker 1: So I believe women activated 14 to 16 areas of
2:04:45
Speaker 1: their brain activated while trying to read those body language pictures.
2:04:48
Speaker 1: And men, I believe it was half of that. In
2:04:51
Speaker 1: other words, when women were looking at pictures of body language,
2:04:54
Speaker 1: lots of connections were happening. They were making predictions. They
2:04:58
Speaker 1: were thinking about personality. They were thinking about emotions. They
2:05:01
Speaker 1: were looking at their clothes. They were looking at their
2:05:03
Speaker 1: facial structure. Women were taking in a much broader picture
2:05:06
Speaker 1: of the body language, whereas men were, I think, much
2:05:08
Speaker 1: more cue-focused. Ah, broad shoulders, feet apart, hands visible. Neither
2:05:16
Speaker 1: of these are right or wrong. Actually, in fact, men
2:05:18
Speaker 1: can sometimes be easier to teach. Like my students are
2:05:21
Speaker 1: 50-50 men and women, but sometimes men can, they can
2:05:24
Speaker 1: focus in on the cue that I'm trying to teach them.
2:05:26
Speaker 1: They can understand it. They can comprehend it. Got it.
2:05:28
Speaker 1: It's decoded. Women tend to create a whole narrative. So
2:05:30
Speaker 1: I play a game sometimes with my students where I say, okay,
2:05:33
Speaker 1: tell me about someone. He has a mohawk. And men
2:05:38
Speaker 1: will often say that, I don't let them hear the
2:05:40
Speaker 1: women first. Men will often be like, he has a mohawk.
2:05:44
Speaker 1: He's a man. He's not bald. Women will be like, okay,
2:05:49
Speaker 1: he's a bad boy, and he probably has earrings, and
2:05:52
Speaker 1: I bet you he drives a motorcycle, and I bet
2:05:54
Speaker 1: he'd be really fun on a date, but probably a drinker,
2:05:57
Speaker 1: and they will just go.
2:05:59
Speaker 2: Interesting.
2:05:59
Speaker 1: So this is— it' s good and bad, right? Like, that also
2:06:02
Speaker 1: can hinder women. And by the way, I'm making big
2:06:05
Speaker 1: generalizations on this. This is not the generalization part we
2:06:09
Speaker 1: have to make sure we're careful on. women tend to
2:06:12
Speaker 1: globalize a cue. Like they'll see a cue and be like, oh,
2:06:15
Speaker 1: that means he's bad or that means he's dangerous. I'm never,
2:06:18
Speaker 1: he's toxic. Never going to talk to him again. Yeah.
2:06:22
Speaker 1: Whereas men will sometimes, you know, oh, it's probably just
2:06:25
Speaker 1: a bad day or I'll give her or him a
2:06:27
Speaker 1: second chance. So we just have to be a little
2:06:29
Speaker 1: bit aware of our own interpret, our own lenses, we'll say.
2:06:33
Speaker 2: Is there anything else that I should say to my
2:06:34
Speaker 2: friend in order to help them Because sometimes I wonder,
2:06:38
Speaker 2: you know, there's tips, tricks, tactics, they can lean, they
2:06:40
Speaker 2: can do this, whatever. But is there something deeper that
2:06:43
Speaker 2: is easier? Do you know why I say this? That book,
2:06:45
Speaker 2: The Game, I went off to university, I lasted for
2:06:47
Speaker 2: one lecture. But while I was there, I met this
2:06:49
Speaker 2: guy called Joe, my friend. I won't say his second
2:06:51
Speaker 2: name because people will identify him. But I met my
2:06:53
Speaker 2: friend Joe. And I said to Joe, listen, my friend,
2:06:55
Speaker 2: I said, this book, The Game, really useful, taught me
2:06:57
Speaker 2: a lot about like, you know, interpersonal dynamics, you should
2:07:01
Speaker 2: read it. Gave the book to him. He read it.
2:07:03
Speaker 2: We went out to the club that day. He fucked
2:07:05
Speaker 2: it up. Like he went out there. He started negging
2:07:08
Speaker 2: people inside. And I just thought, God, you know, you
2:07:11
Speaker 2: just can't teach it. That's what I thought. I thought
2:07:13
Speaker 2: there's so many. And actually, when I reflect on the
2:07:15
Speaker 2: people in my life, this guy called Dan, I'll say
2:07:17
Speaker 2: his name, Dan Capon. Dan Capon in school. was always
2:07:21
Speaker 2: just so good with the opposite sex. He was just always,
2:07:24
Speaker 2: he's one of those people, he's charismatic, he was funny,
2:07:28
Speaker 2: he's like that cocky funny. Yeah, yeah. Just a natural.
2:07:31
Speaker 2: No one taught him that. Yeah. And so I look
2:07:34
Speaker 2: at my friend Joe, I look at my friend Dan,
2:07:36
Speaker 2: I go, it doesn't matter if you read the book.
2:07:39
Speaker 2: I'm not saying your book, your book's amazing, everyone needs
2:07:41
Speaker 2: to go read your book. No, they really do, it's
2:07:42
Speaker 2: a great book. But I'm saying, is there something deeper
2:07:45
Speaker 2: within us? Like for my friend, that has the shriveled posture. Yeah.
2:07:49
Speaker 2: Is it just, Like tactics and tips?
2:07:53
Speaker 1: I think anyone can learn it. Okay. I really, truly
2:07:57
Speaker 1: believe that. I have seen the most awkward. uncomfortable people
2:08:02
Speaker 1: totally shut down, slowly transform or completely transform. And remember,
2:08:07
Speaker 1: they don't... Who is your uncharismatic friend? What was the
2:08:10
Speaker 1: fake first name you used?
2:08:12
Speaker 2: He's not uncharismatic. He just... I just gave him the
2:08:14
Speaker 2: book and he just like... Who is it? Joe? Joe. Okay.
2:08:17
Speaker 1: Joe doesn't need to have a complete transformation to find
2:08:19
Speaker 1: his soulmate. Joe does not need to have a complete
2:08:22
Speaker 1: transformation to have friends. You're his friend. So even if
2:08:26
Speaker 1: he has a couple of tactics, like stop asking, what
2:08:29
Speaker 1: do you do? It's boring. Like start making eye contact,
2:08:33
Speaker 1: especially at the end of sentences for 60, 70% of
2:08:35
Speaker 1: the time. Oh, people suddenly feel listened to. Hey, ask
2:08:39
Speaker 1: better questions to your friends. You'll get to know them better.
2:08:41
Speaker 1: Those tactics will get him friendships, hopefully a girlfriend, hopefully
2:08:46
Speaker 1: a job. So I think that everyone can make small
2:08:51
Speaker 1: or big changes. I don't think there's anyone who's unteachable.
2:08:55
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a relationship between these tactics and
2:08:59
Speaker 2: tips and your actual confidence, i.e., does it become like
2:09:02
Speaker 2: a self-reinforcing?
2:09:03
Speaker 1: Yes, so much so. Like, that is the only way
2:09:07
Speaker 1: I found confidence. The only way that I was able
2:09:10
Speaker 1: to conquer my awkwardness and actually begin to go out
2:09:13
Speaker 1: and try to make friends and be less lonely. I mean,
2:09:15
Speaker 1: I was so lonely. was that I was like, okay,
2:09:19
Speaker 1: I have a goal. I'm going to ask someone, what
2:09:22
Speaker 1: have you been doing that's been exciting recently? I'm going
2:09:24
Speaker 1: to ask that question. That gave me just enough confidence
2:09:27
Speaker 1: to get out the door and to get to that party.
2:09:29
Speaker 1: And then when I got a good answer, someone's like,
2:09:32
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you know, I am working on something exciting.
2:09:33
Speaker 2: I was like, oh.
2:09:35
Speaker 1: And then they felt excited.
2:09:36
Speaker 2: I felt excited.
2:09:37
Speaker 1: And so like that one tool gave me enough confidence
2:09:39
Speaker 1: to go out. So these tools give you confidence to
2:09:41
Speaker 1: try something new and to break your patterns. If you
2:09:45
Speaker 1: feel stuck, and this is for anyone, if you feel stuck,
2:09:48
Speaker 1: then you have to try something different. If you keep
2:09:51
Speaker 1: doing the same thing, you're going to keep getting the
2:09:52
Speaker 1: same thing. So that means you have to ask different
2:09:54
Speaker 1: kinds of questions. You have to use different kinds of
2:09:57
Speaker 1: body language cues. And if you're willing to try just
2:09:59
Speaker 1: something different, something will change for you.
2:10:01
Speaker 2: Are these cues, this body language, more important for one
2:10:06
Speaker 2: gender typically than the other?
2:10:08
Speaker 1: Not that I've seen. The research has not found that.
2:10:11
Speaker 1: Good for both.
2:10:13
Speaker 2: And what's, in terms of attraction, is, what is, do
2:10:17
Speaker 2: you think, the most important thing? Is it competent? Is
2:10:20
Speaker 2: it strong? Is it?
2:10:22
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is not, this is research. So I
2:10:24
Speaker 1: believe it was Monica Moore who did this research. She
2:10:26
Speaker 1: found that the people who got approached the most at clubs,
2:10:30
Speaker 1: the people who got approached the most, were just, had
2:10:33
Speaker 1: the biggest signal of availability ever. So they weren't the
2:10:36
Speaker 1: most attractive men and women. She did this for both
2:10:38
Speaker 1: men and women. They were not the most attractive men
2:10:39
Speaker 1: and women. In fact, the most attractive women in the room,
2:10:42
Speaker 1: if they had closed body language, closed off body language,
2:10:44
Speaker 1: they were not approached. They did not get dates. They
2:10:46
Speaker 1: did not get out their number. It was the men
2:10:48
Speaker 1: and women who signaled, I'm available.
2:10:51
Speaker 2: How do you signal I'm available?
2:10:52
Speaker 1: Okay. So this is really important for dating in the
2:10:55
Speaker 1: sense of wanting to be approached. Dating one-to-one is a
2:10:58
Speaker 1: little bit different, right? You don't need to signal this
2:10:59
Speaker 1: if you're one-to-one. But if you're in a big room
2:11:01
Speaker 1: or you're speed networking— One is open body, no blocking.
2:11:05
Speaker 1: I never want anything in front of your torso. I
2:11:08
Speaker 1: don't want this. So I don't want arms crossed. I
2:11:11
Speaker 1: don't want cup in front of you. I don't want
2:11:12
Speaker 1: you clutching your computer or your iPad or your phone.
2:11:16
Speaker 1: I want you to make sure that your torso is
2:11:18
Speaker 1: open and angled out towards the room. I like croissant feet.
2:11:21
Speaker 1: You know, parallel feet are like what we're doing right now.
2:11:24
Speaker 1: In a dating situation, I want you to have croissant feet,
2:11:26
Speaker 1: which is your feet are angled toward the biggest part
2:11:28
Speaker 1: of the room saying, I'm open, come and approach me.
2:11:32
Speaker 1: That signals to both men and women, oh, maybe that
2:11:34
Speaker 1: person is literally physically open to someone coming in and
2:11:37
Speaker 1: breaking this conversation. It also means small, darting glances to
2:11:42
Speaker 1: everyone around the room. Everyone. Everyone you want to approach you.
2:11:45
Speaker 2: Oh, everyone you want to approach you.
2:11:47
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:11:47
Speaker 2: How many times has someone got to do a glance
2:11:49
Speaker 2: to get someone to come over?
2:11:49
Speaker 1: So Monica Moore actually studied this. I believe it took
2:11:52
Speaker 1: eight glances to get someone to approach. Don't quote me
2:11:55
Speaker 1: on that. It was way higher than I thought. Like,
2:11:58
Speaker 1: I was like, two, maybe three glances. I think it
2:12:01
Speaker 1: was something insane like eight. Could you imagine being in
2:12:02
Speaker 1: a bar and looking at someone eight times? That's how
2:12:05
Speaker 1: many times it took to get that person to come over.
2:12:08
Speaker 1: And these are quick glances, not like, you know, it's
2:12:11
Speaker 1: a side glance. It's a side glance and a smile.
2:12:14
Speaker 1: It's a flip of the hair and a look over, right?
2:12:16
Speaker 1: Those are the kind of glances that we're talking about.
2:12:18
Speaker 1: And it takes eight sometimes. So croissant feet, open body, quick,
2:12:22
Speaker 1: short glances. I would also try one of my secret
2:12:25
Speaker 1: tricks for daters is generally gesturing in their direction. So like,
2:12:31
Speaker 1: let's see, like, like there's a hot guy right over
2:12:33
Speaker 1: there that I can see. I've been married for 18 years,
2:12:36
Speaker 1: just to be clear. Yeah. If you want, okay, drop something.
2:12:41
Speaker 2: He's called him hot. He's freaking out.
2:12:46
Speaker 1: Okay. So there's a hot guy right over there that
2:12:47
Speaker 1: I want to see. And I'm talking to you. I
2:12:50
Speaker 1: might make some quick glances over, but I also might
2:12:53
Speaker 1: like when I'm gesturing, I'm sort of gesturing towards them.
2:12:56
Speaker 1: So I'm on their line of gesturing. So like, If
2:12:58
Speaker 1: I'm gesturing out, I'm making a gesture for them to
2:13:01
Speaker 1: literally come over. Like I'm like gesturing and then I'm
2:13:03
Speaker 1: like– I want them to like literally come over. I'm
2:13:05
Speaker 1: sort of gesturing but I'm talking but I'm open gesturing.
2:13:08
Speaker 1: It works.
2:13:09
Speaker 2: It works.
2:13:10
Speaker 1: If they are attracted to you at all, they will
2:13:12
Speaker 1: come over. If they don't come over, they're probably not
2:13:15
Speaker 1: attracted to you. Try someone else.
2:13:16
Speaker 2: What about men? How do men signal in this? Oh, sorry.
2:13:19
Speaker 1: Same, same. So like a man can do the same thing. Now,
2:13:21
Speaker 1: women are less likely to approach men in a crowded– environment. Culturally,
2:13:26
Speaker 1: that's not as accepted. So it's going to be harder
2:13:29
Speaker 1: for a man to get a woman to come over.
2:13:31
Speaker 1: But it does work very well for men to warm
2:13:33
Speaker 1: a woman up that she is about to be approached
2:13:36
Speaker 1: with those things. Quick glances, open gestures, croissant feet towards her.
2:13:40
Speaker 1: That way, when you do approach, she knows that your
2:13:44
Speaker 1: attention has been on her. And look at her responses
2:13:47
Speaker 1: to your gestures and your glances. If she meets your glance, great.
2:13:51
Speaker 1: If she turns away from you, turns her feet away
2:13:54
Speaker 1: from you, She's not probably very receptive to your approach.
2:13:58
Speaker 1: So it's a good way to kind of test the
2:13:59
Speaker 1: waters before you actually approach.
2:14:00
Speaker 2: It's difficult in this day and age, isn't it? To
2:14:02
Speaker 2: know if you can roll up on someone because there's
2:14:04
Speaker 2: a lot of like, you know.
2:14:06
Speaker 1: Too cool for school. That's what I see.
2:14:07
Speaker 2: And also there's like a big culture now of inappropriate advances.
2:14:13
Speaker 1: Yes, but I'm going to be optimistic and say, look,
2:14:16
Speaker 1: I'm not single. So I know that's different, but I
2:14:18
Speaker 1: think people are lonely. And I think people so want
2:14:23
Speaker 1: to meet their person. So if you are actually in
2:14:26
Speaker 1: person and you're interested in someone, it is such a
2:14:31
Speaker 1: gift to go up to someone and be like, hey,
2:14:32
Speaker 1: I like you. I saw you across the room.
2:14:34
Speaker 2: Do you know, I think I said this on one
2:14:38
Speaker 2: or two podcasts before, but I didn't really get an
2:14:40
Speaker 2: answer from anybody. I had this kid at this event
2:14:43
Speaker 2: that I spoke at. Okay. And he was in the
2:14:45
Speaker 2: front row. And it really moved me because it made
2:14:46
Speaker 2: me realize that there's so many people out there, especially
2:14:49
Speaker 2: in the world we live in now in 2024, 2025
2:14:50
Speaker 2: or whatever, who want friends. You just said loneliness, right?
2:14:57
Speaker 2: They want to make a friend. And it's so weird.
2:14:58
Speaker 2: This kid stood up, bless him, in this talk I
2:15:01
Speaker 2: was doing. He put his hands up in the air
2:15:04
Speaker 2: and there's a thousand people around him. It was this
2:15:06
Speaker 2: talk I did in Canary Wharf in London, which is like,
2:15:08
Speaker 2: it's like New York of London. It's like really, really busy.
2:15:11
Speaker 2: They're all wearing suits, these kids, because they work in
2:15:12
Speaker 2: the city. And he stood up and he went, my
2:15:14
Speaker 2: question is, how do I make friends? And you can
2:15:17
Speaker 2: imagine the guts it takes to say that in front
2:15:19
Speaker 2: of a room of a thousand people your age. Amazing.
2:15:21
Speaker 2: He went, how do I make friends?
2:15:23
Speaker 1: What'd you say? Do you have any friends?
2:15:26
Speaker 2: Do I have any friends? I have a couple. But
2:15:28
Speaker 2: it's funny because what I actually said, it took me
2:15:32
Speaker 2: off guard. But what I ended up saying was, what
2:15:34
Speaker 2: you just did is how you make friends. You know
2:15:37
Speaker 2: what I'm saying? So like that willingness to be vulnerable
2:15:39
Speaker 2: in that way. Because I said, I know what's going
2:15:41
Speaker 2: to happen after I finish on stage here and walk off.
2:15:43
Speaker 2: People are going to come up to you.
2:15:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I have a framework for how
2:15:47
Speaker 1: to make friends as adults. I think it's really important.
2:15:49
Speaker 1: I think It's somehow unacceptable in our society to approach
2:15:52
Speaker 1: friendship like dating, but that's how we should think about
2:15:54
Speaker 1: it is meeting two or three amazing people is so
2:15:59
Speaker 1: important for your health, for your happiness, for your success.
2:16:03
Speaker 1: It is so important to date your friends. Like that
2:16:06
Speaker 1: is incredibly important. One of my best friends is Cody
2:16:08
Speaker 1: Sanchez because she is incredibly inspiring, incredibly smart, incredibly funny.
2:16:13
Speaker 1: But I dated a lot of people in Austin, a
2:16:14
Speaker 1: lot of girls in Austin to find her. I know
2:16:17
Speaker 1: she did too. It was my bachelorette for friends era
2:16:20
Speaker 1: where I was looking for girlfriends and we just like
2:16:22
Speaker 1: hit it off and we've been able to grow our
2:16:25
Speaker 1: businesses together. So one is you should change your mindset.
2:16:28
Speaker 1: Finding friends is like dating. You are looking for your
2:16:31
Speaker 1: friend's soulmate, and then you should approach those friends just
2:16:34
Speaker 1: like you would a potential partner. You want someone with
2:16:36
Speaker 1: similar values. You want someone who activates the same neural
2:16:39
Speaker 1: networks as you. They like the same activities. And you
2:16:42
Speaker 1: want someone who you test it out. You would never
2:16:45
Speaker 1: move in with a friend or never move in with
2:16:46
Speaker 1: someone who just started dating. Same thing with a friend.
2:16:49
Speaker 1: You don't want to get too close too fast. So
2:16:51
Speaker 1: I highly recommend go on friendship dates and you want
2:16:54
Speaker 1: them to be different every time. Take them to places
2:16:58
Speaker 1: that you love and try to make them a little
2:17:01
Speaker 1: bit allergic. So for example, there's a plate. This is
2:17:04
Speaker 1: going to sound crazy, but it works. There's a place
2:17:06
Speaker 1: in Austin called Casa De Luz, if anyone's been there
2:17:08
Speaker 1: in Austin. And it's a vegan hippie spot. It's been
2:17:11
Speaker 1: there forever. And you go in and it's one meal.
2:17:14
Speaker 1: You can't customize it. And they plop it down on
2:17:17
Speaker 1: your tray and you eat it like a cafeteria food.
2:17:19
Speaker 1: And I love it. And I love taking really high-maintenance
2:17:22
Speaker 1: women there just to see what they're going to do.
2:17:24
Speaker 1: Because the women who are like, can I please get
2:17:27
Speaker 1: a— I'm like, we're not going to be friends. We
2:17:31
Speaker 1: cannot be friends.
2:17:32
Speaker 2: You don't like those people? Nope. That modified them.
2:17:34
Speaker 1: That's why I left LA. I mean, you can modify
2:17:36
Speaker 1: a little bit, but like there's a way that you
2:17:38
Speaker 1: kind of do it. And here you can't. You literally
2:17:40
Speaker 1: cannot modify. And so it's interesting to see how people
2:17:43
Speaker 1: deal with that circumstance. And I found my best, closest
2:17:47
Speaker 1: friends are like, cool, let's go with it.
2:17:48
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:17:50
Speaker 1: That's a way that I see very into their personality.
2:17:52
Speaker 1: That's like a very weird story. People are going to
2:17:53
Speaker 1: be like, she's so weird. No wonder she doesn't have
2:17:55
Speaker 1: any friends. True. I don't have a lot of friends,
2:17:57
Speaker 1: but the friends I have, I love. We go to
2:17:58
Speaker 1: Casa de Luz all the time. So you should think
2:18:00
Speaker 1: about activities or places with your friends where you're going
2:18:03
Speaker 1: to be able to test out a value or something
2:18:06
Speaker 1: that you really appreciate in friends.
2:18:07
Speaker 2: What if you don't have friends? I'm thinking about this kid, like,
2:18:11
Speaker 2: and especially if you're a man, because men just struggle more.
2:18:14
Speaker 2: It actually feels awkward sometimes when.
2:18:18
Speaker 1: No, I make dates for my husband. I have to
2:18:22
Speaker 1: make dates, friend dates for my husband as well. I
2:18:24
Speaker 1: totally get it. I see it. activities. So like, where's
2:18:27
Speaker 1: the place you like to hang out? What's the thing
2:18:29
Speaker 1: that you do? Is it, you know, ax throwing? Is
2:18:32
Speaker 1: it going to soccer games? Is it crazy mileage runs?
2:18:36
Speaker 1: Is it hiking group? Is it pickleball? Like find the
2:18:39
Speaker 1: activity you love and then just slowly, just like we're
2:18:42
Speaker 1: talking about dating, slowly hit them up. Working on anything
2:18:45
Speaker 1: exciting these days? What's your big goal for 2025? Like
2:18:48
Speaker 1: those are the questions. The reason I have these questions
2:18:50
Speaker 1: is they're dating questions, but they're also friendship questions. If
2:18:53
Speaker 1: you live in that activity for long enough, you'll find
2:18:55
Speaker 1: your people.
2:18:56
Speaker 2: What are you seeing in terms of interpersonal relationship shifts
2:19:00
Speaker 2: in the sort of 15 years has it been since
2:19:02
Speaker 2: you've been working?
2:19:03
Speaker 1: 18.
2:19:03
Speaker 2: 18 years. You must have seen societal level shifts in
2:19:07
Speaker 2: our interpersonal skills, our friendships, et cetera. What are you seeing?
2:19:11
Speaker 1: AirPods are killing friendship. AirPods are going to ruin our
2:19:17
Speaker 1: interpersonal interactions. Here's the difference I've seen, the biggest difference
2:19:21
Speaker 1: in the last 18 years. 18 years ago, You could
2:19:24
Speaker 1: maybe wear a Walkman around campus or around the city
2:19:27
Speaker 1: or on a subway, but really your ears were open.
2:19:30
Speaker 1: And so what would happen is you'd get on the
2:19:32
Speaker 1: subway or you'd walk across campus or you'd walk down
2:19:34
Speaker 1: the hallway and someone would be like, hey, Steven, how's
2:19:37
Speaker 1: it going? You know, pretty good, crazy week.
2:19:40
Speaker 2: Oh, really?
2:19:40
Speaker 1: What you working on? Like it was so much easier
2:19:43
Speaker 1: to have those tiny micro moments of connection. That Van
2:19:46
Speaker 1: Sloan study was done before AirPods. And I wonder if
2:19:48
Speaker 1: he were to redo it now, what would happen?
2:19:50
Speaker 2: Which one was that?
2:19:51
Speaker 1: The one where he found the most likable kids had
2:19:53
Speaker 1: the longest list of people they liked. And in the study,
2:19:56
Speaker 1: the most likable kids, when he observed them, they were
2:19:59
Speaker 1: walking down the hallway, saying hello, chatting next to someone
2:20:01
Speaker 1: for five seconds at a locker, saying after class and
2:20:03
Speaker 1: sort of talking, sitting with a lunch table, leaning over someone,
2:20:06
Speaker 1: asking about that. So much micro connection, very small conversations.
2:20:11
Speaker 1: Our friendships don't often happen in these big, deep conversations.
2:20:14
Speaker 1: They happen in these micro moments. AirPods destroy it. And
2:20:18
Speaker 1: I see this, especially with younger folks, because they always
2:20:21
Speaker 1: have their AirPods in when they're commuting, when they're walking,
2:20:24
Speaker 1: when they're jogging, when they're at the gym. I don't
2:20:27
Speaker 1: know about when I was single for five seconds, when
2:20:29
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, 17, the gym was like
2:20:31
Speaker 1: the place. Like, At the gym, no one really was
2:20:35
Speaker 1: listening to anything at the gym. At least I can remember,
2:20:37
Speaker 1: like the rare person would have their Walkman in, but
2:20:39
Speaker 1: everyone was AirPod free. And so there was a lot
2:20:42
Speaker 1: of micro moments of connection happening. It was so much
2:20:45
Speaker 1: easier to talk to people. Now, if someone's working out
2:20:49
Speaker 1: with their out there AirPods, they're insane. I'm like, what
2:20:52
Speaker 1: are they doing? They should go home.
2:20:55
Speaker 2: It's weird.
2:20:57
Speaker 1: It's weird. Or they're with a friend working out together
2:20:59
Speaker 1: and that's intimidating. So I'm worried. about this because we
2:21:06
Speaker 1: need weak ties. Weak ties are in the research. These
2:21:10
Speaker 1: very casual connections of someone you see at the gym
2:21:12
Speaker 1: once a week and you kind of know them, oh yeah,
2:21:15
Speaker 1: you know, Stephen, nice to see you. You recognize their
2:21:17
Speaker 1: face that when you were, if you were to see
2:21:19
Speaker 1: them at a restaurant later in the week, you'd be like, hey,
2:21:21
Speaker 1: don't you go to that gym? Oh yeah, yeah, we do.
2:21:24
Speaker 1: So what are you doing this weekend? Like those weak
2:21:26
Speaker 1: ties are incredibly important for our happiness. That's how we
2:21:29
Speaker 1: build big friends. That's how we can find a soulmate.
2:21:32
Speaker 1: That's how we can make good business contacts. And I'm
2:21:35
Speaker 1: seeing less and less of that because of AirPods and
2:21:38
Speaker 1: because of hybrid work. So we're just not in the
2:21:40
Speaker 1: office that much. So we're having less of those little
2:21:43
Speaker 1: micro moments in a hallway or that five minutes before
2:21:45
Speaker 1: a meeting starts. The five minutes before a meeting start
2:21:48
Speaker 1: is really critical to your career success. How you talk
2:21:51
Speaker 1: to your boss, the small talk you make, are you
2:21:53
Speaker 1: asking boring questions? It's telling your colleagues and your boss
2:21:56
Speaker 1: a lot about who you are and it's proven likable
2:22:00
Speaker 1: people make more money. Likable people get more promotions. Likable
2:22:04
Speaker 1: people have more friends and more friends at work. And
2:22:08
Speaker 1: so when we have less moments to show how likable
2:22:10
Speaker 1: we are, It's really hard to get those things.
2:22:14
Speaker 2: At my company, Flight Studio, which is part of my
2:22:16
Speaker 2: bigger company, Flight Group, we're constantly looking for ways to
2:22:19
Speaker 2: build deeper connections with our audiences. Whether that's a new show,
2:22:22
Speaker 2: a product, or a project, it's why I launched the
2:22:25
Speaker 2: Conversation Cards. I've relied on Shopify before, who's a sponsor
2:22:28
Speaker 2: of today's podcast, and I'll be using them again for
2:22:31
Speaker 2: the next big launch, which we'll hear about soon. And
2:22:33
Speaker 2: I use them because of how easy it is to
2:22:35
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2:22:37
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Speaker 2: you need to make your business go to the next
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2:22:52
Speaker 2: To say thank you to all of you for listening
2:22:54
Speaker 2: to my show, we're giving you a trial, which is
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Speaker 2: just $ 1 a month. You can sign up by going
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Speaker 2: to shopify.com slash Bartlett. That's shopify.com slash Bartlett. Or find
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Speaker 2: the link in the description below. If you're an entrepreneur,
2:23:09
Speaker 2: you're probably going to want to listen to this. It's
2:23:10
Speaker 2: a message from one of our sponsors on this podcast,
2:23:12
Speaker 2: which is LinkedIn. If you've listened to me on this
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Speaker 2: on a bit of an evolution as a business owner
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Speaker 2: and entrepreneur. And one of those evolutions that has become
2:23:21
Speaker 2: clearer and clearer as I've matured is that the single
2:23:24
Speaker 2: most important thing in building a business, in building a company,
2:23:29
Speaker 2: is hiring. The definition of the word company is actually
2:23:32
Speaker 2: group of people. And that is the first responsibility and
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Speaker 2: job any entrepreneur has and should focus on. But surprisingly,
2:23:40
Speaker 2: most don't. About 80% of my team have been hired
2:23:43
Speaker 2: from LinkedIn. And I think there's very few platforms, if any,
2:23:46
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2:24:04
Speaker 2: slash DOAC. Terms and conditions apply. What about lying? This
2:24:10
Speaker 2: is one of the most, things people are most interested
2:24:14
Speaker 2: in is how to, everyone wants to spot a liar.
2:24:18
Speaker 2: It's funny because like the rest of our conversation, one
2:24:20
Speaker 2: could infer that as how to like be a liar.
2:24:22
Speaker 2: I'm joking. But it is, it's like how to show
2:24:26
Speaker 2: up in a certain way to get success in a
2:24:28
Speaker 2: certain context, whether it's dating or work or whatever.
2:24:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:24:31
Speaker 2: But then we want to figure out if someone's playing us.
2:24:34
Speaker 2: Is it possible to spot a liar?
2:24:36
Speaker 1: Most people can only spot a lie with 54% accuracy.
2:24:39
Speaker 1: They've actually studied the average person is very bad. You're
2:24:43
Speaker 1: better off tossing a coin. 54% accuracy. We are very
2:24:46
Speaker 1: bad at spotting liars. And this is important to know
2:24:49
Speaker 1: about yourself is we should not overestimate our ability to
2:24:53
Speaker 1: spot lies. We are usually not good at it. So
2:24:57
Speaker 1: it is very important to give someone the benefit of
2:24:58
Speaker 1: the doubt because you don't know. It's very hard to spot.
2:25:02
Speaker 1: It is possible. There are certain statistical cues to deceit.
2:25:05
Speaker 1: There are cues that over and over again research find
2:25:08
Speaker 1: liars typically do, but not always. Like there's no Pinocchio's nose.
2:25:12
Speaker 1: There's no one cue that means someone is lying. But
2:25:14
Speaker 1: there are a couple cues that come up over and
2:25:16
Speaker 1: over again. One we already talked about, the question inflection.
2:25:19
Speaker 1: It's very suspicious if someone is speaking and all of
2:25:21
Speaker 1: a sudden they ask a question and If they're not
2:25:24
Speaker 1: actually asking a question, right? Like if all of a
2:25:26
Speaker 1: sudden you hear the question inflection used in a statement
2:25:29
Speaker 1: or a number or a boundary or a timeline, that's
2:25:31
Speaker 1: when I'm like, let's double click on that for a
2:25:34
Speaker 1: second and talk about that budget. So you mentioned the
2:25:38
Speaker 1: number was 500,000. Where does that number come from? Let's
2:25:41
Speaker 1: talk about more. I want to hear if I'm going
2:25:42
Speaker 1: to hear it again. So that's a double click. For me,
2:25:45
Speaker 1: that's like, let's make sure that I heard that right.
2:25:48
Speaker 1: Let's make sure that you feel confident about it. Where
2:25:50
Speaker 1: does that come from? So that's just a little red
2:25:53
Speaker 1: flag that says dive deeper. Nothing is a sign of lying.
2:25:56
Speaker 1: It's just a sign that you should dig deeper. So
2:25:59
Speaker 1: question inflection. A volume drop is another vocal cue of deception.
2:26:03
Speaker 1: So when we're anxious or nervous, we will lose volume
2:26:05
Speaker 1: and we lose breath. So if you hear someone who's speaking,
2:26:08
Speaker 1: I hear this a lot in sales calls, so someone
2:26:10
Speaker 1: will I always know what part of a sales presentation
2:26:14
Speaker 1: makes my entrepreneurs the most nervous because they lose volume
2:26:17
Speaker 1: during that part of their presentation. So it sounds like this.
2:26:20
Speaker 1: So let's move on to our team. So our founding
2:26:23
Speaker 1: partners are me, myself, Joe, Jimmy, and we all met
2:26:29
Speaker 1: at NYU. And we're going to now talk about, like
2:26:34
Speaker 1: I'm obvious, I'm making it obvious for you, but if
2:26:36
Speaker 1: you're listening for it, you'll hear where someone is like,
2:26:39
Speaker 1: they literally lost fuel. They literally lost breath. So a
2:26:43
Speaker 1: sudden drop in volume is a very interesting cue to
2:26:45
Speaker 1: like double click, like what just happened there? How do
2:26:48
Speaker 1: you feel about your co-founder? How long have you known
2:26:51
Speaker 1: each other? Anything we should know about that? How's the relationship?
2:26:54
Speaker 1: How do you fight? How do you communicate?
2:26:56
Speaker 2: Right?
2:26:56
Speaker 1: Like that's where I would aim most of my investor
2:26:59
Speaker 1: questions if I was hearing that volume drop on that
2:27:01
Speaker 1: specific area. The other, that's vocal. Nonverbal. So nonverbal, what
2:27:08
Speaker 1: you're looking for is incongruencies, where the verbal does not
2:27:12
Speaker 1: match the body. The biggest and most obvious one is
2:27:15
Speaker 1: when someone says yes, but shakes their head no, or
2:27:19
Speaker 1: says no, but shakes their head yes. So I might
2:27:22
Speaker 1: say to my daughter, did you clean your room? Yeah,
2:27:28
Speaker 1: I did. She's shaking her head no. In Western culture,
2:27:31
Speaker 1: so there's a cultural exception to this one, India, Bulgaria,
2:27:35
Speaker 1: and Pakistan are They nod a little bit differently. The
2:27:37
Speaker 1: research actually shows that. But in countries outside of India, Bulgaria,
2:27:41
Speaker 1: and Pakistan, when we agree with someone, say yes, or
2:27:44
Speaker 1: telling the truth, we typically agree with ourselves and shake
2:27:47
Speaker 1: our heads yes. When we don't agree or don't like something,
2:27:50
Speaker 1: we'll often shake our heads no. We can sometimes also
2:27:51
Speaker 1: do this in disbelief, like, wow, I cannot believe that
2:27:54
Speaker 1: just happened. So I'm always looking for incongruent nods. This
2:27:58
Speaker 1: happens a lot if you ask someone, do you like
2:28:00
Speaker 1: the new girl?
2:28:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, she's.
2:28:04
Speaker 1: Great.
2:28:06
Speaker 2: Right?
2:28:07
Speaker 1: You see that.
2:28:07
Speaker 2: 100%, yeah.
2:28:08
Speaker 1: All the time. And people, they don't realize they're doing it,
2:28:12
Speaker 1: but they're shaking their head, no, they do not like
2:28:15
Speaker 1: that person. You'll also see this with mismatched facial expressions.
2:28:18
Speaker 1: And the biggest one for liars, the research finds, is disgust.
2:28:22
Speaker 1: So disgust is an expression that people make without even
2:28:25
Speaker 1: realizing it. And this is across cultures. When we don't
2:28:28
Speaker 1: like something or when we smell something bad, we crinkle
2:28:30
Speaker 1: our nose up and we flash the upper whites of
2:28:32
Speaker 1: our teeth and we go, ugh, that. So you'll notice
2:28:36
Speaker 1: that liars typically feel dirty when they lie. So oftentimes
2:28:40
Speaker 1: they'll show disgust with themselves for lying. So you'll ask someone,
2:28:45
Speaker 1: so what do you think of the proposal? Yeah, it's
2:28:51
Speaker 1: really good. And they might even sniff.
2:28:54
Speaker 2: Really?
2:28:55
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:28:56
Speaker 2: What's a sniff? What does it signal?
2:28:59
Speaker 1: Oh, it's a disgust activator. Like when we are disgusted,
2:29:03
Speaker 1: our nasal cavities want to close because we want to
2:29:05
Speaker 1: take in less of it. And so even though it's
2:29:06
Speaker 1: not about food, it's about a preference. Liars will often
2:29:09
Speaker 1: show a little bit of disgust when they are lying
2:29:11
Speaker 1: because they are like a little bit disgusted with themselves.
2:29:15
Speaker 1: And so you'll see this activation here. By the way,
2:29:17
Speaker 1: no one does that naturally. Like, right, this is a
2:29:19
Speaker 1: very unnatural way to hold my face. But we do
2:29:21
Speaker 1: it when we feel disgusted. the nasal cavities. When we
2:29:24
Speaker 1: nasal dilate, our nasal wings dilate, that's what it's called,
2:29:27
Speaker 1: like these nasal wings dilate and we begin to scrunch
2:29:30
Speaker 1: them up, it's like we don't like what we're seeing, smelling, hearing.
2:29:34
Speaker 1: So what I will do is I will share a
2:29:36
Speaker 1: proposal to someone, I will talk about something, and I
2:29:38
Speaker 1: watch for any disgust. So I'll say, you know, here's
2:29:43
Speaker 1: the plan for 2025, here's what we're going to do.
2:29:45
Speaker 1: And if I see a... I know that that team
2:29:49
Speaker 1: member or that person is like not that into it.
2:29:52
Speaker 1: And that's why I double click. Any questions? How do
2:29:55
Speaker 1: you feel, Stephen? Do you like this idea?
2:29:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it.
2:29:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, no. Horrible. You look like you're about to throw up,
2:30:03
Speaker 1: by the way.
2:30:04
Speaker 2: I heard you say that the most toxic relationships are
2:30:07
Speaker 2: the ambivalent relationships. The word ambivalent means, what does it mean?
2:30:12
Speaker 1: Okay, so ambivalent is actually not toxic. So toxic is like,
2:30:15
Speaker 1: we know it's bad. We don't want it. We're creating
2:30:18
Speaker 1: boundaries around it. Ambivalent means we're not sure. Ambivalent relationships
2:30:23
Speaker 1: are the relationships in your life that are the most damaging.
2:30:26
Speaker 1: They're the relationships where you wonder, does she like me?
2:30:30
Speaker 1: Do I like her? I wish she would cancel this
2:30:33
Speaker 1: dinner we have. Am I tired after that? I'm dreading it.
2:30:38
Speaker 1: Do I have to go? Gosh, I wish I was home.
2:30:42
Speaker 1: Those are ambivalent relationships where you're not sure and they
2:30:45
Speaker 1: are so energetically draining. Because a toxic person, you know
2:30:50
Speaker 1: they're toxic. You're like, I don't like that person. They're
2:30:52
Speaker 1: not serving me. I'm not going out to dinner. I'm
2:30:54
Speaker 1: going home. No thanks. Not going to text you. Not
2:30:57
Speaker 1: going to tell you I'm thinking about you. Or an
2:30:58
Speaker 1: ambivalent person, you're like, I should check in with that person.
2:31:02
Speaker 1: I really should go to this dinner. Oh, it's been
2:31:04
Speaker 1: five months since I've gone to dinner. Oh man, do
2:31:07
Speaker 1: I even know what they're up to these days? Do
2:31:09
Speaker 1: I even care? And then most importantly, do they like me?
2:31:12
Speaker 1: Do they support me? That's why I asked about that
2:31:14
Speaker 1: friend that you were like unsure about. I was like,
2:31:16
Speaker 1: Are they jealous? Do they have a problem with you?
2:31:18
Speaker 1: Because you might be picking up on they are ambivalent
2:31:21
Speaker 1: towards you. And you're picking up on that. There's a
2:31:25
Speaker 1: research study that was done with police officers. And they
2:31:27
Speaker 1: wanted to know what makes for a thriving workplace. So
2:31:31
Speaker 1: they asked police officers to rank the people in their precinct.
2:31:34
Speaker 1: And they found that the police officers who had the
2:31:37
Speaker 1: most ambivalent ties were more unhappy in their job, had
2:31:41
Speaker 1: less work-life balance, had more workplace stress. more than the
2:31:46
Speaker 1: people who had toxic relationships. In other words, the police
2:31:49
Speaker 1: officers who said all 10 of those people are toxic
2:31:52
Speaker 1: were happier at work than the police officers who said,
2:31:55
Speaker 1: I don't know if I like that person and that person.
2:31:58
Speaker 1: I don't know if that person likes me. I don't
2:32:00
Speaker 1: know if I want to go out to lunch with
2:32:01
Speaker 1: that person again. I kind of would rather be alone
2:32:03
Speaker 1: because it is so mentally draining to have ambivalent relationships.
2:32:07
Speaker 1: So it's really important if you're making that list of people,
2:32:10
Speaker 1: going back to the very beginning, you know, the people
2:32:12
Speaker 1: you're really close, not very close with, kind of close with,
2:32:15
Speaker 1: really close with. If you're not sure, put them at
2:32:17
Speaker 1: the bottom. And in the next 30 days, try to
2:32:21
Speaker 1: ask them the questions that we shared. Working on anything exciting?
2:32:25
Speaker 1: What's your biggest goal right now? And see if you
2:32:27
Speaker 1: like their answers. It's important to either move them up
2:32:30
Speaker 1: or move them out. Don't let them be ambivalent.
2:32:34
Speaker 2: One of the things that is highly searched on Google,
2:32:37
Speaker 2: I was looking at Google to figure out what the
2:32:39
Speaker 2: most search questions are. There's some tools that I use
2:32:42
Speaker 2: to figure out what people want to know. And one
2:32:45
Speaker 2: of them was just, finally, how do I start a conversation?
2:32:48
Speaker 1: That's what my next book is about. So I'm happy
2:32:50
Speaker 1: to hear that.
2:32:51
Speaker 2: Okay.
2:32:52
Speaker 1: One is don't overthink your opener. Starting a conversation is like, hey,
2:32:56
Speaker 1: I'm Vanessa. Like literally your opener can just be that.
2:33:00
Speaker 1: My sister, my youngest sister, she was like the best
2:33:03
Speaker 1: advice I ever gave her ever. And I was like,
2:33:05
Speaker 1: what is it? She was like, you just told me
2:33:07
Speaker 1: to say hello to people. And that is it. Your
2:33:09
Speaker 1: opener is just, hey, I'm Vanessa. Hey, nice to meet you.
2:33:12
Speaker 1: So don't overthink the opener because that opener, your body
2:33:14
Speaker 1: is actually doing a lot of things. Your brain and
2:33:16
Speaker 1: body are like competence, warmth, facial expressions, voice tone. If
2:33:21
Speaker 1: you're like, what's your biggest goal in life? It's way
2:33:25
Speaker 1: too much. And so one is your opener should actually
2:33:28
Speaker 1: be basic so the other person's brain is like, gives
2:33:31
Speaker 1: them a chance to like, safe. Okay, friend, we're friend. Hey,
2:33:34
Speaker 1: how are you doing?
2:33:35
Speaker 2: Right?
2:33:35
Speaker 1: I did my friend cue. I held up my hand.
2:33:37
Speaker 1: So don't overthink your opener. Hey, nice to meet you. Hey,
2:33:40
Speaker 1: I'm Vanessa. Your first question is where things get more interesting.
2:33:44
Speaker 2: Okay?
2:33:44
Speaker 1: So if you don't know their name, you want to
2:33:45
Speaker 1: say like, oh, what's your name? Great.
2:33:46
Speaker 2: I'm Vanessa.
2:33:48
Speaker 1: Then you have a choice. And I like to take
2:33:52
Speaker 1: the better route. You can say, so what do you do?
2:33:54
Speaker 1: But I really don't like that path. It's autopilot. So
2:33:57
Speaker 1: what I like to do instead is is ask a
2:34:00
Speaker 1: version of the excitement question. Do anything fun and exciting
2:34:03
Speaker 1: this past weekend? If it's a Monday. So Mondays, I
2:34:06
Speaker 1: always ask, you do anything fun this past weekend? Fridays,
2:34:09
Speaker 1: I always ask, have any exciting plans coming up this weekend?
2:34:12
Speaker 1: And then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I don't talk to anyone.
2:34:18
Speaker 2: What is the most important thing we haven't talked about
2:34:21
Speaker 2: that we should have talked about? For the person sat
2:34:22
Speaker 2: at home, the typical question, the most prolific question that you.
2:34:26
Speaker 1: Get There's one story that I love that I try
2:34:28
Speaker 1: to keep front of mind, which is about Harry S. Truman,
2:34:31
Speaker 1: former U.S. president. Most people don't know about him is
2:34:34
Speaker 1: that he was actually severely introverted. And when most people
2:34:37
Speaker 1: think about U.S. presidents, they do not think about introverts.
2:34:39
Speaker 1: In fact, most presidents have to be kind of a
2:34:42
Speaker 1: booming extrovert personality, and he was very introverted. And he
2:34:45
Speaker 1: did something very interesting at the Democratic National Convention back in,
2:34:48
Speaker 1: I he knew he was not a good public speaker,
2:34:52
Speaker 1: which also is very rare for you as president to
2:34:55
Speaker 1: become president without being a public speaker. He knew he
2:34:56
Speaker 1: could not cut it on stage with the very charismatic people.
2:34:59
Speaker 1: And he was not, he was behind. In the polls,
2:35:01
Speaker 1: he was not the preferred candidate. So he was like,
2:35:04
Speaker 1: I'm not going to compete on stage. I'm not going
2:35:07
Speaker 1: to try to outspeak them. I'm not going to try
2:35:08
Speaker 1: to go work the floor and shake hands. It's not
2:35:11
Speaker 1: my way. What I am going to do is try
2:35:14
Speaker 1: to find a way to do what I'm best at,
2:35:15
Speaker 1: which is one-on-one conversations where I can win people over
2:35:19
Speaker 1: with an argument. So in the Democrat National Convention, it
2:35:22
Speaker 1: was really hot. It was in Chicago in the middle
2:35:24
Speaker 1: of summer. He rented the one air-conditioned room in the bottom,
2:35:28
Speaker 1: in the basement of the convention center. And one by one,
2:35:31
Speaker 1: his team would invite person by person down into that
2:35:35
Speaker 1: air-conditioned room, and he would tell them his story. He
2:35:37
Speaker 1: would tell them his points and vote by vote. And
2:35:40
Speaker 1: as the votes were being tallied, he would win over
2:35:42
Speaker 1: every single person that went to that room. One, it
2:35:44
Speaker 1: was air-conditioned, so they wanted to stay there as long
2:35:46
Speaker 1: as possible. Two, he would hear, what are your concerns?
2:35:49
Speaker 1: Why do you not want to vote for me? And
2:35:50
Speaker 1: then he would explain to them why they should vote
2:35:52
Speaker 1: for him. And vote by vote, he ended up winning
2:35:55
Speaker 1: the national convention without having to speak on stage barely
2:35:58
Speaker 1: at all. I share this because stop competing on stages
2:36:02
Speaker 1: where you can't be your best. Start creating rooms where
2:36:05
Speaker 1: you can. Think about what are your social strengths? You
2:36:09
Speaker 1: have one. What is it? Is it storytelling? Is it
2:36:12
Speaker 1: being funny? Is it listening? Is it being empathetic? Is
2:36:15
Speaker 1: it being a decoder? Is it being persuasive? What is
2:36:19
Speaker 1: your social strength? Create spaces and rooms where you can
2:36:22
Speaker 1: exercise that strength because no one wants you to pretend
2:36:25
Speaker 1: to be an extrovert or pretend to be something you're
2:36:27
Speaker 1: good at that you're not. It's much better to do
2:36:30
Speaker 1: what you're actually good at and attract the right people.
2:36:32
Speaker 2: And your social strength might not be in person.
2:36:34
Speaker 1: Might not be.
2:36:35
Speaker 2: And that's okay.
2:36:36
Speaker 1: Like, there are some people who are great at texting.
2:36:38
Speaker 1: There are some people who are great at sending voice notes.
2:36:41
Speaker 1: There are some people who make their friends by broadcasting
2:36:43
Speaker 1: and then picking out a couple people. That's how you
2:36:44
Speaker 1: met your girlfriend, is you broadcasted. She resonated with something
2:36:48
Speaker 1: that you said, and you gave her the way to
2:36:50
Speaker 1: find you. She did, and then you met. So maybe
2:36:52
Speaker 1: it's broadcasting. I think we have to think outside the box.
2:36:56
Speaker 1: It's not only in person. There are so many ways
2:36:57
Speaker 1: you can have social strengths.
2:36:59
Speaker 2: I've heard it all now. Yeah. I get it. I
2:37:01
Speaker 2: believe it. I'm into it. Yeah. What is step one?
2:37:03
Speaker 2: I'm going to buy your books. There's two of them here.
2:37:05
Speaker 2: So I'm going to buy both of these books. Both
2:37:07
Speaker 2: of them will be linked below. What else can I
2:37:10
Speaker 2: do to start on my journey of becoming... You were
2:37:12
Speaker 2: a recovering, awkward person. You were awkward before. Now you're not.
2:37:14
Speaker 1: Yes.
2:37:15
Speaker 2: What's step one?
2:37:16
Speaker 1: Okay. Step number one is begin to break autopilot. So
2:37:18
Speaker 1: make a commitment for the next 30 days. You are
2:37:21
Speaker 1: not going to trigger autopilot in your conversation. No more,
2:37:23
Speaker 1: what do you do? No more, how are you? No more,
2:37:26
Speaker 1: where are you from? No more.
2:37:27
Speaker 2: Right?
2:37:28
Speaker 1: Ask better questions. What's your biggest goal? Working on anything exciting.
2:37:33
Speaker 1: You're disgusting me.
2:37:34
Speaker 2: No, I'm thinking, I'm just, I was going to tell
2:37:36
Speaker 2: you to look good.
2:37:38
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's challenge number one. Challenge number two, find
2:37:41
Speaker 1: out where you fall on the warmth and competence scale.
2:37:43
Speaker 1: Are you highly warmed? You need to dial up competence
2:37:45
Speaker 1: to be taken more seriously. Are you highly competent? You
2:37:47
Speaker 1: need to dial up warm to be seen as more
2:37:49
Speaker 1: likable and friendly and trustworthy. Do that email audit. So
2:37:52
Speaker 1: take the quiz, then do the email audit. And then
2:37:54
Speaker 1: if you can, here's the bonus challenge. Send the charisma
2:37:57
Speaker 1: quiz to someone who knows you well, someone at work,
2:38:00
Speaker 1: maybe a partner. Ask them to take it as you
2:38:04
Speaker 1: and screenshot their results. Sometimes how we perceive our warmth
2:38:07
Speaker 1: and competence is not how others perceive our warmth and competence.
2:38:11
Speaker 1: So if you take it and you say, I'm perfect,
2:38:13
Speaker 1: I'm a five of five, but they take it and
2:38:15
Speaker 1: they see you as really high on the warmth scale,
2:38:18
Speaker 1: that is going to be critical feedback for you.
2:38:21
Speaker 2: We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the
2:38:23
Speaker 2: last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not
2:38:24
Speaker 2: knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. And
2:38:26
Speaker 2: the question that's been left for you.
2:38:30
Speaker 1: I always love these.
2:38:33
Speaker 2: When in your life did you try to outrun your pain?
2:38:39
Speaker 2: And what was the consequence? When in your life did
2:38:43
Speaker 2: you turn and face your pain? And what was the consequence?
2:38:49
Speaker 1: There was a really weird moment in my career where
2:38:52
Speaker 1: everything was taking off. I had a lot of years
2:38:55
Speaker 1: of a lot of hard struggle. And being a writer,
2:38:57
Speaker 1: I had a published book, traditionally published book that completely failed. 2011,
2:39:01
Speaker 1: we won't name it. Put it out there. I thought
2:39:03
Speaker 1: my world would change and it did terribly. I got
2:39:06
Speaker 1: terrible reviews. It didn't sell. And I was literally told
2:39:09
Speaker 1: you'll never write a book again. And I was just devastated, devastated.
2:39:16
Speaker 1: And my husband was like, you've got to keep writing.
2:39:18
Speaker 1: You're a writer. You've got to keep writing. And so
2:39:21
Speaker 1: I went back to it. I started Science People. That
2:39:23
Speaker 1: was officially when I started like the actual website Science People.
2:39:27
Speaker 1: Kept writing. And then it started taking off. I had
2:39:30
Speaker 1: videos that went viral. We started having millions of visitors
2:39:32
Speaker 1: on the website. And I wanted to prove myself very
2:39:36
Speaker 1: badly and I wanted to erase that painful memory. And
2:39:40
Speaker 1: so when I got approached to write Captivate, I was like, no,
2:39:47
Speaker 1: I can't write books. I'm a YouTuber and a blogger,
2:39:50
Speaker 1: but I can't write books. And she was like, this
2:39:53
Speaker 1: will be a different kind of book. This will be
2:39:54
Speaker 1: a book about really what you want to say to people,
2:39:57
Speaker 1: not the book you think you should write. And I
2:39:59
Speaker 1: was like, no, I was like, I cannot do it.
2:40:02
Speaker 1: It's too painful. I will not survive if that fails.
2:40:05
Speaker 1: I will not survive if that fails. And it took
2:40:08
Speaker 1: Nikki months of telling me this will be different. This
2:40:12
Speaker 1: will be a different kind of book. You can write
2:40:14
Speaker 1: the real book that you really want to write. And
2:40:16
Speaker 1: so I said, yes, I started writing it. And that
2:40:19
Speaker 1: was when I think I, I don't know how the
2:40:21
Speaker 1: end of the question was, but decided it would be
2:40:24
Speaker 1: worth the pain. If that failed, it would be worth
2:40:27
Speaker 1: the pain of at least saying that I tried. That
2:40:29
Speaker 1: was very hard. choice thank goodness it did not fail
2:40:32
Speaker 1: he did really well um and I'm eternally grateful for
2:40:37
Speaker 1: that when everyone when anyone buys a copy I'm like
2:40:40
Speaker 1: one click further from that failure.
2:40:45
Speaker 2: Horrible failure Vanessa thank you thank you so much um
2:40:50
Speaker 2: what you write about and what you educate people on
2:40:52
Speaker 2: is a subject that's probably more important now than ever.
2:40:56
Speaker 2: And I say that because of the sort of macro
2:40:58
Speaker 2: climate of society where we're more lonely than ever. We're
2:41:00
Speaker 2: struggling with connection. It's not coming naturally to us as
2:41:03
Speaker 2: it once probably did, or at least more natural than
2:41:06
Speaker 2: it does now. And so many of the, it's crazy.
2:41:10
Speaker 2: I've only been a podcaster really, I think for about
2:41:11
Speaker 2: four years. Like I think I started in 2017, but
2:41:13
Speaker 2: really it's been four years since I've been uploading. And
2:41:16
Speaker 2: it's crazy just in that time alone, how many more
2:41:18
Speaker 2: of the questions I'm getting are about all the things
2:41:20
Speaker 2: you write about. They're about like how to make a
2:41:22
Speaker 2: friend and, how to show up in a certain way
2:41:24
Speaker 2: and all these kinds of things. So the work you're
2:41:27
Speaker 2: doing is so unbelievably important. There's so much more that
2:41:30
Speaker 2: needs to be done as well. But the contribution you've
2:41:33
Speaker 2: had to the 400,000 people that you've taught and the
2:41:35
Speaker 2: millions of people that have bought these books and consumed
2:41:37
Speaker 2: your videos and everything is a really, really important one.
2:41:40
Speaker 2: So thank you. It's so funny because even me, like
2:41:45
Speaker 2: people see me on camera and stuff, but I learned
2:41:47
Speaker 2: so much, so much from your work, so much.
2:41:50
Speaker 1: Thank you.
2:41:51
Speaker 2: So much. So many things as well that I think
2:41:53
Speaker 2: a lot about and, you know, things you can take
2:41:56
Speaker 2: or leave. You've got to say like, who do I
2:41:57
Speaker 2: want to be? And like, who am I? You know,
2:41:59
Speaker 2: truly to then apply these things. Because there's no point, like,
2:42:02
Speaker 2: I just have no interest in building a facade or anything.
2:42:05
Speaker 2: But there's things about me where it's like, oh, I
2:42:07
Speaker 2: didn't even know I was doing that, you know? Yeah.
2:42:09
Speaker 1: And like, what kind of friend do I want to be?
2:42:11
Speaker 1: What kind of partner do I want to be? What
2:42:13
Speaker 1: kind of way do I want to be in conversation? Like,
2:42:15
Speaker 1: you get to choose.
2:42:16
Speaker 2: Thank you, Vanessa.
2:42:17
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
2:42:20
Speaker 2: When it comes to food, I trust my gut and
2:42:22
Speaker 2: I trust Zoe, a business I'm an investor in and
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2:42:33
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2:42:36
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2:42:40
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2:42:49
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2:43:25
Speaker 1: Thank you.