Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / Push Pride to the Side: Just Make the Call — Jeff Dill

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Push Pride to the Side: Just Make the Call — Jeff Dill · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• Chris Stockton: All right, welcome back to Dispatches Functional. This one feels a little bit different to me. We spend a lot of time talking about the calls that stay with us. Today I want to talk about what happens when the people taking care of those taking those calls start disappearing behind the job. So today's guest is Jeff Dill, founder and CEO of the Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. Before we get into all this, Jeff, thank you for what you're doing. It's amazing. All the work y'all have done is top notch. Y you you spent decades in the fire service helping first responders and their families face the things we usually don't talk about. But before we get into the organization, the numbers of any or any of that, so who is Jeff Deal when he's not doing this work and what made you say yes to coming on here? Jeff: Well, Chris, thanks for having me on because I I wanted to come on. I I know about your organization or your podcast and wanted to get the message out to our brothers and sisters in the first responder world, you know, especially our dispatchers, that struggle. And I think you know, I I'm a firm believer in Maslow's pyramid, the top one self actualization. Take what you know and pass on to others. And so that's that's why I'm here. I I think The message that we talk about today hopefully it will transcend into some of our brothers and sisters to go out and seek help instead of trying to fight that long, lonely road by themselves. Chris Stockton: Awesome. So you told me that outside the job and your intake that, you know, you're about God, family, travel, and even writing children's books, which again is awesome. you know, a fire service lifer writing children's books. I I I want to hear about that one. And you've also said something about you've traveled one point six million miles. Did I read that right? Jeff: That is correct. I've Chris Stockton: Jesus. Jeff: I've been all over America and Canada speaking to our brothers and sisters, clinicians, chaplains. I even had the honor of speaking at the Pentagon. Chris Stockton: wow. So what's the place that you actually want it want to go to when nobody's asking you to teach? Jeff: you know, in 2017, my wife and I traveled across the United States with our truck and camper, and we were gone for over a year. And and I will t we will tell you that one of our most favorite little towns is Nashville, Indiana. It's just a small little beautiful town. it's got a little creek or river through it, or next to it, state park. It's just a lot of antique shops, great restaurants, and so we've been back there a couple of times. just to enjoy and relax. Chris Stockton: Awesome. I wanna I've never never been to Indiana. That sounds interesting. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: so on the forum I asked something I was asked what's somebody what's something you wish somebody would have told you earlier. And you gave me five words. Push pride to the side. And when I asked Jeff: Yeah. Chris Stockton: go ahead. Jeff: Well, you I it's something I I try to enlighten our brothers and sisters to say you you can't handle whatever demons that you're dealing with. And we need to r ask for help. You know, I came up with a a saying way back in in twenty eleven called cultural brainwashing. Meaning when we put this uniform on, we are expected to act in certain manners. You know, strong, brave, professional, courageous, give help, don't ask for help. you know, handle all issues on your own. And when you're struggling with, you know, whether it's depression or relationships or addictions, wh whatever it might be, PTS, moral injury, that you need to push that pride to the side and say, Hey, I I do need some help. I need to walk the path with someone. Chris Stockton: Yeah, I I recently took that journey myself and Jeff: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: it's it's a humbling experience I should say, to to be able to speak to providers and and get the help you need and and at the same time it was kind of like you said, I had to swallow that pride of that that uniform, like you said, and and be like, Hey, Jeff: Right. Chris Stockton: I need help. Jeff: Yeah, and and people expect it. you know, the brothers and sisters we work with, the communities we serve, the traditions of the first responder world tell you this is how you're supposed to act. And like I said, that's that's very difficult to do when you're struggling with whatever issue you're dealing with. Chris Stockton: Very true. Very true. So you spent thirty-seven years in the fire service, and you said you became a licensed clinician in two thousand nine while you were still a battalion chief. That's not a noble career move for anybody, by any means. And it couldn't have been easy. You know, a chief going back to school to become a counselor. I I want to start with the guy who made that decision. What what was going on in your life that made you want to do that? Jeff: Well, I was battalion chief for a fire department in northwest suburbs of Chicago in two thousand five when Hurricane Katrina hit. And and Division One sent down numerous firefighters and including several from our department. And when they came back, they showed me films they were picking up bodies in the streets and the devastation and they were struggling. But this was two thousand five. We we never talked about going to an EAP or getting help. So I decided How can I help out my brothers and sisters? And that's when I went back for my master's degree and became a licensed counselor. And in fact, in 2009, I founded counseling services for firefighters. And I started to train clinicians and chaplains around the United States that if you want to work with us, you need to understand us. Our world's a little different. And so that's what I did. But early in 2010, I started receiving emails and phone calls from all over the world. Saying, do you do anything about firefighter or EMS dispatcher suicides? I said, Suicides? I've never heard of that. No one ever talked about that. You see, I started in the fire service in 1990. And so I did a little research and found out, hey, we might have a bigger issue than people realize. So that's when my bride and I, my bride will be married 46 years in November. She we found Chris Stockton: Well, congratulations. Jeff: thank you, we founded Firefighter Behavior Health Alliance. And started with workshops, educational workshop. Our first workshop ever was called Saving Those Who Save Others. And started then to track and confirm fire EMS and dispatcher suicides. So Chris Stockton: wow. Jeff: to the point now, I have confirmed 2,392 of these tragic events. And I've personally spoken to about 2,340 chief officers or supervisors, family members. Validate all the data. So I've heard thousands and thousands of stories of our brothers and sisters. And we take that information and we build workshops around it to the point now we have 16 different types of workshops. And I never would have envisioned that back in 2010 when we founded FBHA. There's just so many different avenues to then go down. Because, like I said, we we never talked about behavior health in the first responder world. So it's It it keeps us busy, but you know, the the thing is now if you look, and as you know, there's there's just hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of organizations out there promoting behavioral health for first responders, to the point where we used to have about 120, 130 workshops a year that I used to do. That's how I traveled, 1.6 million miles. I I can ask I can honestly Chris Stockton: Jeez. Jeff: tell you right now, Chris, we have no workshops. On the books for now or 2027. And so it it it becomes a a point where I start thinking a lot, is it because of financial issues or and I'm thinking about writing an article about this called Company complacency kills? Because we were always trained if you're complacent on a call, that'll be the time that the snake comes up and bites you and you're in trouble. And I and I think now in the first responder world, because there's just so many organizations and it's so overwhelming to some people, they've become complacent with that to the point now where, well, your first responder, yeah, you probably have PTS. You probably you know, that's just assumed. And and yes, we have line of duty deaths, that's part of the job. it shouldn't be, but it's part of the job. And I think we've come to the point now. Well, because so many people struggle with post traumatic stress and And the issues that we see nowadays on the calls, like that horrific call that happened in Oregon yesterday, that we become complacent with suicide. Yeah, it it it happens now. It happens in the job because it's because of the nature of the beast that we do. And and it's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. We should never get to that point to be complacent about a person's behavioral health, whether a first responder or just general society. But unfortunately, when I see All the lack of workshops, and not just me, but a lot of organizations, that becomes a problem in my book. And also organizations that don't have the funding. They don't want to do the funding for behavioral health. And so for you know, the last five and a half years, I've been the behavior health administrator for Las Vegas Fire and Rescue. Put together, Chris Stockton: that's cool. Jeff: put together their complete behavioral health program, peer support. trained resources clinicians here in Vegas to work with our brothers and sisters. And you know, I I want to do that on a part-time basis when I retire in January and move to Arizona. But, you know, I can see it already that there's no budget in the money for behavioral health. And and I've and I've seen that for eighteen, nineteen years now, Chris, is that well, if we have to make budget cuts, it won't be in our personnel, won't be in our well, we have to go towards our training. Well, we we can't take away, you know, EMS training or dispatcher training. We can't take away advancing a hose line and a fire and things, all that type of training. so we'll look at let's let's do behavior health. we'll put it in the budget again next year to see if we can get some. And and we're seeing that time and time again. And unfortunately, we're still losing, you know, over a hundred of our brothers and sisters every year. And I I only estimate about a sixty-five percent reporting to us. So it's it's a very challenging time for organizations. And and my wife says, hey, and I tell people, I I talk to other organizations who call me because in reality, their roots come through FBHA. Because in 2010, no one was talking about suicide, no one was collecting any data on it. And so a lot of the roots of these organizations come through FBHA, and believe me, we met some. Terrible times in 2010, 2011. Rejection, the Chris Stockton: Okay. Jeff: the letters, you know, you know, you're making up the data and you're making up the numbers and PTS. That's a military thing. So, you know, so we we live through that. And I I just hope that as these organizations grow that they don't get frustrated. And and I tell them time and time again, hey, we might know the ones we lose, but we'll never know the ones we save. And that's why we get up in the morning and do what we do as organizations to help out our brothers and sisters. Chris Stockton: Rachre. That was actually a question I had for you. Was when you were training in the beginning, was there pushback on training others? Jeff: Yeah. absolutely there was. And and you could see it, you could you go into a class and say fifty-five, sixty people, and and you always knew the five or six that were like, What a waste of time this is here today. You know, and many times I I would greet them at the door and and say, Hey, welcome to our class. This starts in a couple of minutes. And they'd say, great, what organization are you from? Meaning an outside organization. I say, Well, I'm a battalion chief, you know, in the Northwest Suburbs. you're one of us. Yeah, and it's like all of a sudden it and it is. That's the way our culture is, is that you need to understand who we are and what we see and what we go through. And I and I've been through that. so it it it can be very challenging for people that don't know our world. And but the good thing is is that two great advancements since I started in 2010, and that is the peer support team. And then also the training of our clinicians. The amount of clinicians that are understanding our world. And I work very closely with the National Volunteer Fire Council. I do quarterly trainings Chris Stockton: sweet. Jeff: with with the NVFC on training chaplains and because or excuse me, clinicians and chaplains, because we have a national national directory of clinicians that work with first responders. And that you know, we're well up over three hundred. They're in every state, a couple in Canada. And that's important. And it and it gets three thousand hits a month. So you know, it's these are the things that we have to continue to do. Yet we're like I said, we're still losing people and there's still that now I'm starting to see that complacency in regard to behavioral health. Chris Stockton: I gotcha. So going back a second, I know you're saying that you track all of the suicides. So make that human for me. What does that do to someone like yourself that has to literally go one by one and confirm it one at a time for years? Jeff: It's if I didn't have the strength of the good Lord and the Holy Spirit in me, it would I I wouldn't be able to do it. because you you can't hear thousands, you know, over two thousand, twenty or twenty three hundred stories of how our brothers and sisters take their lives and in the families. We do a lot for families. We hold annual weekend retreats. And Chris Stockton: that's cool. Jeff: so it it it's just if you don't have that strength and and This is what I tell, you know, I run the peer support team here in in Nevada, Las Vegas, and and we we train other departments for peer support. And I I tell them it's absolutely imperative that you need to know the difference between empathy and being an empath. Empathy is I I can talk to that chief and say, hey chief, you know, we got a confidential report that your organization lost a member. And go through all that and you know the reasons and the methods and the ages if they're active and and all those other issues. But once I hang up, if my wife says, Hey, can you start the grill, we're gonna have dinner, I can do that. Now, being an empath is why I'm cooking the food, I'm thinking about that call, that firefighter or dispatcher or EMS member that I just heard, how they took their life, and and I think about it all the time. And and there's nothing wrong. Being an empath, you absorb a lot of people, you can connect with people, but at times you have to understand you can't absorb everyone's issues. And that's that's what an empath does. And we see that a lot in the clinician world, and you see camp compassion fatigue or burnout because they're taking all that home. And so like I said, I I've I've been blessed by the good Lord to find solitude and peace. In knowing what I'm doing, I'm providing a service, I'm helping out our brothers and sisters find counselors, inpatient facilities. So, and then unfortunately, like I said, I I hear how they take their lives and and I do it because I want to remember our brothers and sisters, but I also want to know the reasons why. And then, like I said, we build workshops on that, and that's how we came to moral injury. And I I'm a firm believer moral injury plays a larger role than post-traumatic stress. Chris Stockton: I gotcha. So you said that reasons why. What other patterns that that you're seeing that when you're going through this? What what is the I w I don't wanna say normalcy, but what is the main pattern that you notice? Jeff: Yeah, we we you know, I've spoken at almost every conference, major conference and in the United States as well as some in Canada, a lot of fire chiefs conferences and things. And read a lot of read a lot of articles. I've I've written a lot of articles, and and we're still focused on post-traumatic stress. And not that it's wrong, because it's part of the job and there's nothing wrong with being it, but it can't be everything, because in our data of the twenty three hundred and ninety-two losses. The number one unknown is number one. The chiefs just didn't know. But the number one known by far is relationships, either personal or work relationships, by far, followed by depression. And yet we focus on PTS. And we need to expand. There's medical issues, there's legal issues, there's financial issues. We've had 72 murder suicides. Our brothers and sisters killing, killing the killing loved ones and then themselves. You know, which relates to a lot of relationship issues, correct? And so until we can accept all these and really learn and broaden our horizons on the information of this, can we move forward in behavioral health? It can't just be everything is post-traumatic stress. And that's why I say moral injury, because PTS is trauma-based, fear-based from the things we see and do. Moral injury is the emotional impact on our lives and from the things we see and do that. are impact a divorce, a loss of a child, or whatever that emotional is of jealousy, guilt, anger, rejection, shame, embarrassment. So all these come to the emotion aspect that leads to the relationships. And that's where we see the the greatest loss is due to relationships. Chris Stockton: Damn. So I know earlier I know I remember you brought up that you include dispatchers. I know a lot of people don't understand Jeff: Yes. Chris Stockton: why. So why why do you think people in our realms don't quite understand that dispatchers are part of this conversation as well? Jeff: Well, it's it's very o easy to oversee because they they sit in a room and they communicate and then they just turn it over to the on scene. And yet they don't understand that that first step is imperative for us to get to the scene. And so I we have you know, here in Vegas, we have about sixty, sixty-five dispatchers, and I'm up there two or three times a week just saying hello, seeing how they're doing. we have about five or six on the peer support team. And so I'm a I'm always a firm believer in dispatchers. Even when I was in the fire department in Illinois, during the, you know, I I'd stop out at our dispatch center and I bring them a apple pies and things because I knew the great work that they do. And when you go up and you start talking to a a probationary dispatcher and she says, excuse me, Jeff, and takes a call of a three year old drowning. And then she hang, you know, they hang up and then we sit and talk and say, How you doing? and things, you know, it was a tough call. And then she's all just like I got another call. And it's a 15-year-old who's hanging themselves. Back-to-back calls. And so the the process here is of understanding that dispatchers a lot of times they don't get closure, they don't get closure on those calls. And so we've trained our battalion chiefs, our EMS-1, our captains to follow up. with our dispatchers and and that's been very very beneficial for them Chris Stockton: So I kind of want to piggyback on that. I know, like you said, the dispatchers don't get closure. What kind of havoc does that honestly wreak on someone's mind in the end? Because they're not able to visually see Jeff: Right. Chris Stockton: what's going on. They can only hear, and I can only imagine I've never been a dispatcher, but I can only imagine that you know, them hearing what's going on on that line could be traumatic just just and visually in seeing it in their own minds. Jeff: Yeah, when you hear the families shouting and screaming and and the thing is is you know, I always I always talk and especially in our dispatcher workshop, I ask, you know, do do any of you have any children that drive? And a few people raise their hand and I'll say, Well, let's let's go over this scenario. Your child says, Can I borrow the car tonight? And you throw them the keys and say, Be home by ten o'clock. And so away they go. And then around 10 o'clock, you start looking down. it's 10. They're not home yet. Is your first thought, my little Johnny must be out fixing a flat tire of some good, you know, old woman? What a good Samaritan he is. You know, and it's not. It's like, my God, they're in an accident, they're in trouble, they're defying me, or what a police are pulled, or whatever it is. And as every minute goes by, your mind races faster and faster and creates images and ideas and stories about. Why they're not home yet? And they're usually negative. And so that will just wear and tear on you until finally you see their headlights pull into the driveway. Now you've got closure. You might be upset, but you got closure. And that's the same thing with our dispatchers on a horrific call. Did I do everything right? Did the child, you know, is the child breathing? Did they make it to the hospital all right? What's going on? And until they get closure, their mind is just racing time and time again. Chris Stockton: Very true, and I've been there before. Jeff: Yeah, yeah Chris Stockton: so earlier you you you t you said you talked about how moral injury plays a larger role than PTS. you know that's gonna land wrong with some people and I really don't give a crap. you spent years fight as firefighting as a firefighter, you spent years doing what you're doing and and now you're helping spend years fighting PTS to get taken seriously. So if you don't mind, could you give me the normal ver person version? What's the difference and why does it matter which one we're talking about? Jeff: In regard to post traumatic stress and moral injury? Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. Jeff: Okay, so PTS can come in many forms, right? From child molestation when they were younger, vehicle accident when you know sometime in their life, so something that was physical to them. And and that creates a living memory for them. Where moral injury now is and let me go over this. We did a white paper on moral injury, and you can and you can download it off our webpage for free. And so I I talked to the foundation that first created it, Dr. Jonathan Shea. He worked with the military in the 1980s. He's credited with the term moral injury. And his belief was his belief was that as human beings, we're born inherently to help others. We're we're, you know, that's the good in us. And then you get into the first responder world and you're trained to save lives. Well, in an informal survey that I did for a couple of years, wherever I was doing workshops, I asked our brothers and sisters, what do you think our save rate is? By the time we get to some of these horrific calls, drownings, full arrest, suicide attempts, any traumatic injury and things. And we came to an agreement of about five to eight percent is our save rate. Chris Stockton: Jesus. Jeff: And so over time, you know, you you start seeing a lot of death and you feel, you know, guilty. You know, you're trained to save lives. Or and so where it becomes one of the key issues of moral injury is betrayal. Betrayal by management. You promised us better work hours, better pay, less overtime so we could spend time with our family, or betrayal by others. You know, we've known each other for years. Now it's promotional time and and you're saying a lot of negative things about me to make yourself look better. Or why are you harassing or bullying a certain firefighter, you know, in our department? Or betrayal by myself. Why didn't I say something when I saw someone being harassed and and abused? Or why did I go out and have an affair and ruin my relationship with my spouse and my children? So all that leads to those human emotions of. Guilt, rejection, shame, embarrassment, failure to do good. And so you can have PTSD and moral injury at the same time. They're just two different ways of approach from a clinician standpoint. You know, there's so many different therapies for PTS. And one of the key aspects when you start dealing with moral injury is you have to get that person to learn how to forgive. Give. And that's easier said than done. To forgive others or forgive yourself. And so when I talked to the military about their studies that they did, I asked them when you looked at your data, where was your biggest losses towards? And they said, by far, we lost more soldiers to moral injury than PTSD. And so this is why I base, you know, my my thought is that because relationships, and I'm not talking about marriage all the time, I'm just talking about family relationships or work relationships, those are our big issues with us. Or maybe you had a relationship with a patient that you've seen quite often and then all of a sudden they they pass away. And so now you you're saddened by that because you had a relationship based on all the times that you serviced and helped them. And so these are the things that we look at when we look at PTS, which is like I said, trauma-based, fear-based on the things that happened to us and that we saw them do, where emotions are the what we feel. So it's and these are the little things like we've had over 30 in our data, 30 of our brothers and sisters that when they took their lives, they did it at the gravesite. of either a loved one, a parent, or a you know, a mother or father or a loved one. And so, you know, these those are emotional aspects that and you can, like I said, you can have both. So we we we try to train clinicians to look out for both in regard to working with first responders. Chris Stockton: That's one I've never heard of of the at the cemetery. That's quite dark. Jeff: yeah, it's it's you wouldn't think so, but you know, that's where they feel they're closest to their loved one. And you know, I I have a term called cognitive disconnect. And what that means is at that moment, that brother or sister has decided to take their life based on either the pain they're struggling with or the belief that their families will be better off. And at that moment, Chris Stockton: You always forced. Jeff: yeah, and at that moment reality has gone out the window. And they're basing that decision on the emotion that they're going through depression, guilt, whatever it is. And so I I get a little upset when I read articles that say suicide is always preventable because it's not. It's not all that does is throw guilt on the family survivors or the friends, saying, Hey, you should have done something because suicide's always preventable. It's just not. We're never going to get to zero. Because we're dealing with human relationships. I've lost about 35 people that I've come to know over these past years doing FBHA. And it hurts. There's no doubt about it. But at times, at that moment when their depression or whatever that emotion is and the reality is gone, that's the where that's where they lean to is to take their lives. And so we we try to teach our brothers and sisters to do an internal size up. And what that means to me is that we need to ask ourselves two questions every day. Why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way? And the best thing that you can do is listen to others because they see us better than we will ever see ourselves. But we also have to listen to our bodies when we're not sleeping. Our anger has increased. Our stress and anxiety, you know, we've turned to an addiction. That's our body saying, hey, something's up. We need to get help. Chris Stockton: Damn. That's all I gotta say to one is damn. so I noticed in a lot of the places I work, and and I'm sure you could attest this as well, is those EAPs that everyone has is literally just a poster and a phone number you call. so so why do you think it is that when these companies decide to say, well, you know, we don't have the money for it, they go for this cheap I would say cheap, program that really doesn't do much of anything to help. Jeff: Well, you know, i especially in in our culture, it's it's always been a one side of the wall, right? On one side of the wall we had our first responders, on the other side were our EAP clinicians, chaplains. And if everyone anyone ever visited over there, you were considered weak and we couldn't trust you on calls and things. But like I said, things have changed. And and it's all about how you approach. Now, our EAP here in in Las Vegas, BHO. I work with them. I train their clinicians. And I have a QR code of about 30, 35 of our clinicians that have been trained that our firefighters go to. So we have a Chris Stockton: well. Jeff: great relate, we have a great relationship with them. And that's what organizations need to do is to build those relationships with those employee system programs. The problem is they're not bad people. It's just that we never let them in our world. So how would they know anything about us because we kept them out? And so really working together or finding an EAP program where you can train those clinicians that your people will trust that will come out and do ride time, they'll come out and have lunch so they know who they're, you know, talking to when they call on a phone. And so all these things are part of an organization's responsibility that it yes, if you have an EAP program, well then your behavior health person should make sure that they know each other. the members and the employee assistant program clinicians. Chris Stockton: Yeah. And and that I think like you said, that would make a big difference to be able to see the clinicians come to our stations and spend time with us, get to know us and and be able to trust someone because I I myself when I got the help, you know, I didn't try to find s I tried to find someone that knew first responders. I didn't want to go to someone who didn't know what the hell I was going through. Jeff: Right. Right. And and that's like I said, I mean if someone came to me and said, Jeff, we need you to perform heart surgery. Well, I know how the heart works, but that doesn't mean I can do the heart. You know, you have to you have to train someone, you have to bring into that world to understand. So like I said, it it behooves the organization to really find someone who can be the go between to do that training. And and that's what I hope to do when I retire here in January. is, you know, I moved I'm moving down Arizona is to find a part time job where I can find an organization to pass on. You know, and that's what it is. you know, I've learned so much from our brothers and sisters. I just want to pass that on to other organizations. Chris Stockton: So, Jeff, we've talked about what you've done for this profession. I I wanna ask about the man who doing it. Eighteen years of teaching, traveling and carry stories, you know, most people never hear. what what does that cost you at home? Jeff: Well, my wife is you know, she's she's our board president. And so she she without her, FBHA doesn't run. I I can guarantee you that a hundred percent. So she volunteers so much time. She hasn't never been paid a dime. And so she's she knows she's a firefighter's wife, and she's one of the toughest in her soul because she has a lot of medical issues, health issues, and she's fought forever since I've known her. And she's probably the bravest person I've ever met in my life. And so but she's an empath. And so I have to limit very little information. She handles the web page and things. So when I validate it, I'll just say, you know, a firefighter, I'll I'll text her a firefighter, say say Missouri and 2026, and I'll just text her that and then she puts it into the account. on a webpage and things. I don't give her the details. I don't give her names and numbers. I'm the only one who's ever seen the data. That's the confidentiality I've given to all these chiefs and supervisors because many families don't want their loved ones to anyone to know that they took their lives because we know how people judge. And so that that data is it's sealed with me. Chris Stockton: I that's gotta be a a great trust to have with your wife is that with that as well. And and I think that's something that a lot of people don't seem to understand is you gotta have the backing from your spouses, your families, your loved ones. If you don't, then this will get to you in the end. Jeff: But that all comes about, you know, everyone talks about the word resiliency. You know, it's a big word, it's a famous word everyone likes to use. For me, resiliency simply means you need to talk. Talk, talk, talk. and you don't have to give them all the details, but you can go home and say, hey, honey, man, I had a rough day, man. I had to I had to validate three suicides today. They were just awful. You know, just to let know that, hey, you know what, I had a rough day. You don't have to go into all the details. But also you have to, like I said, with that internal size up, you have to learn to listen. Hey, honey, you look like you had a rough day. What what's going on? You know, I can just see your little off today. I've learned to listen to her because first off, she's a hell of a lot smarter than me. And so so but you know, and those are the things that we have to do as first responders is to take care of ourselves first and you know. Everything else will move smoothly then once we start learning to take care of ourselves. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. So before I let you go, I know we only scheduled for thirty minutes, I kinda got you over a little bit already. But before Jeff: Sorry. Chris Stockton: I let you go, I wanna ask you a few quick questions I like to ask. first honest answer, no need to print it pretty. So what's the biggest lie first responder culture tells us about behavioral health? Jeff: That you're a tough and you can handle anything. Chris Stockton: All right, one word for what pride cost. Jeff: Pride can cost you your identity. Chris Stockton: Yeah. what do dependable people need to hear? Jeff: But do it dependable what people need to hear? Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. Jeff: Have patience with us. It it it takes time for us to adapt, especially to the behavior health nowadays. We're we're doing a lot better, dependable people. just have patience with us, the people that depend upon us, and meaning that's the way I look at dependable people in regard to that. Chris Stockton: Perfect answer to me. I I love it. Can people come back from the road of darkness? Jeff: Absolutely. I've seen it time and time again. Unfortunately, like I said, I've lost a a few that fallen to their prey. But man, I I know over a couple hundred first responders that struggled with post-traumatic stress and now are back on the job. So yes, you know, then and they carried that word hope. And they lived by it and they followed it to back to their life again. Chris Stockton: That's perfect. So one thing every department should add to its program tomorrow. Jeff: they and that is a complete behavior health program. For me, you know, it's it's a 12 point program. It starts from the academies to teaching the families to teaching peer support, chaplains, writing policies and guidelines. And they're not just for administration, they're for everyone. When you ask for help, these are the steps that are going to happen. And then the last step, of course, is retirement. Instead of just getting a piece of cake and an axe on a board or whatever it is, hey, you know what? How are we helping them? How are we preparing Chris Stockton: Mm-hmm. Jeff: them? for the loss of identify you know, loss of identity, the loss of belonging, the lack of purpose, what that retirement challenges us with. So, you know, let's get a let's get everyone in there to a complete behavior health program. Chris Stockton: So one question I I it's not on my that I have written down, but I I was curious on for the ones who are thinking that they're going to be punished for coming to go get help, what would you say to them? Jeff: I would say that you don't have to go someone in your department. Go outside to your department, go out to a clinician, call FBHA. I'm there to help. I like I said, I've I've helped the numbers are are too great by finding counselors, inpatient facilities, even weekly sessions where they can sit in and talk amongst other brothers and sisters across the nation about issues. So all these things just just make What I s what we say a lot of times is just make the call. Just make the call. You know, our we're good friends with the righteous brothers. I don't know if you know the righteous brothers. yeah, you do. You probably you you probably heard their music. but yeah, Chris Stockton: probably. Yeah. Okay. Jeff: and they did a little video for us, you know. It's I'm Bucky Chris Stockton: that's cool. Jeff: Hurd, I'm I'm Bill you know, Medley from The Righteous Brothers. If you're struggling, just make the call. And so please, my brother and sisters. Chris Stockton: Mm-hmm. Jeff: Push pride to the side, don't walk that path alone, just make the call. Chris Stockton: Amen to that one. So best place you've been in the one point six million miles that you've done. Jeff: Well, I would have to say the the best place that I've been. I'm a I'm a I'm a sucker for the Northeast. And I I I love the Boston area. That's just if I if I could, if I had the money, I I would move out there. it'd be a long ways for my children and grandkids. That's one reason why we don't do it. But any any place up in the East Coast, you know, we just we love Salem, Massachusetts, Rockport, Gloucester, you know, Cape Cod. I'm just I'm just one of those New England people. Chris Stockton: That's awesome. So, Jeff, there's one person I want to make sure we're leaving something with. They're listening alone at 2 A.M., a firefighter, a medic, a dispatcher, a officer, or a person married to one. They're on the call. You called Road to Darkness, and they think they have to walk it by themselves. Forget the data, forget the workshops, forget me and forget the mics. what do they need to hear from you? Jeff: They need to hear that the comfort in my voice and that I'm I'm here to walk the walk with you. You know, I I can't solve your problems, but I will find the resources for you, I will find some funding for you, and I'm here for you, I'm walking the walk with you, brother or sister, Chris Stockton: I love him. Jeff: or sister. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir, I love it. I appreciate you trusting me with all this. And and if if people want to find more about the Fire Fighter Behavioral Health Alliance, or bring a workshop to their department, find your books, where can they go? Jeff: Yeah, it's pretty simple. Of course, www.ff like firefighter, B as in Bravo, H A dot org. We're a 501c3. So ff b a dot org or all have to do is Google. We're we're everywhere. So but Chris, I I absolutely appreciate you having me on here to help out our brothers and sisters because if you if you're not doing your podcast, people aren't listening, then our message doesn't get out of hey, there's Chris Stockton: Very true. Jeff: help out there. So thank you so very much. Chris Stockton: yeah, this is this is how I this is my stress reliever and this is what I enjoy doing. you know, and thank you for coming on with me to to have this conversation. It's been an honor. I appreciate it. You know, everything you're doing and and everything that you continue to do, even even though like you said, you're you're a nonprofit, so you don't make money off of this, and I don't think a lot of people understand that. Jeff: Yeah, well, believe me, well, we don't make any money off it. It's Chris Stockton: Mm-hmm. Jeff: you know, we we were trying to do a fundraiser a couple nights ago. we had seven great Las Vegas entertainers and Chris Stockton: wow. Jeff: they they donated their time to sing and we only sold 24 tickets, six or eight which were family or friends. So out of all about 3,500 first responders, all Las Vegas, we only sold 18 tickets, so we had to cancel it. And I I will Chris Stockton: Damn. Jeff: tell you, I will tell you, Chris, that that hurt. That hurt. Chris Stockton: bell. Jeff: And it was it was it's it's tough. I'm I'm doing a lot better now, but it was tough for my wife and I to think out out of all these people in Las Vegas that no one really cared about what our mission was to help our brothers and sisters, support family members and and what even hurt more was that we had seven great entertainers here in Vegas that everyone knows. And no one wanted to come out and see them. And the tickets weren't that absurd. They were getting a dinner. It was a great venue. we had a silent auction. so it was that one was was hard to swallow, Chris. I I'll tell you that right now. Chris Stockton: I wish I would have Zara, I would've w I would've went. Jeff: I am I I believe you. I believe you, but so but you know that y you just pick yourself up out of boots and and you move forward. And you trust Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. Jeff: in you trust in what the good Lord has promised for you. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. Thank you very much, Jeff. Let me go ahead and stop. Because I Jeff: Okay. Chris Stockton: can get my button to work.