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SERIAL KILLER CAUGHT ON TAPE: MORE BODIES? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How many serial killers are
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: walking amongst us? How many serial killers yet to be caught?
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Has a prolific serial killer been caught on tape? And
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: are their more bodies? I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. The search for Samantha
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Konig leads to a local park as the kidnapper leaves
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: a photo for police. What happened to Samantha? Little did
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Samantha's father know that photo that was left along with
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: a ransom note. It had Samantha a picture with braids,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: and her dad immediately knew Samantha never wore her hair
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  Speaker 1: like that. Little did her dad know at the time
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: he got the ransom note and he saw the polaroid
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  Speaker 1: that Samantha was dead in the photo, her eyes stitched
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  Speaker 1: open and makeup artfully applied. How many serial killers are
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: lurking amongst us? This guy is Ciryl Keys, one of
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  Speaker 1: the most prolific serial killers to ever stalk our country.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Very rarely is a serial killer caught on tape. But
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: listen to this.
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  Speaker 2: She was out on the river and it's like, remember
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: you can flow down the people who do it on
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  Speaker 2: interviewers and so, and it's just hang out.
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  Speaker 3: It's this more remote spot. She was like the last
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  Speaker 3: one in her group, grabbing dura puller.
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  Speaker 4: On the shore.
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  Speaker 1: He speaks of abducting one of his first victims. So
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  Speaker 1: casually you are hearing the voice of a prolific serial
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  Speaker 1: killer that's taught our country for so long, and the
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  Speaker 1: bodies weren't even connected. Authorities didn't realize one guy is
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  Speaker 1: responsible for a murder wave. Joining me an all star panel.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Before I let you hear more of the prolific serial
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  Speaker 1: killer Israel Keys, I want to introduce a longtime friend
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  Speaker 1: and colleague. As you may know, I was on HLN
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: for many many years and one of our star producers
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: was Andrew Eiden aka Drew Eiden, who joins us tonight.
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  Speaker 1: He is now co host of the Deviant podcast. Andrew,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with.
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: Us, Thanks for having men.
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  Speaker 1: This Israel Keys. Do you hear how casually he's describing.
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  Speaker 1: He says, she was out on the river, a river
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  Speaker 1: you can float down with enerviews, and she was near
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  Speaker 1: the end. It's just like the slowest gazelle, Drew. The
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: slowest gazelle is the one the Hyena grabs yep, and
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  Speaker 1: that's exactly what he does. I mean, if a Hyaena
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  Speaker 1: could talk, it would be him. And he so casually grabs,
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  Speaker 1: like describes grabbing her as the rest of the group
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  Speaker 1: goes await, It's like, you know, yeah, drove through McDonald's,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I got a diet code. Yeah, are you surprised? And
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  Speaker 1: how casual he is.
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  Speaker 5: It's it's really shocking, honestly, when you listen to when
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: you listen to the hours of his conversations with authorities,
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: the thing that is so mind boggling is the is
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  Speaker 5: the callous, cold, detached demeanor with which he outlines all
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: of his car and even some of the crimes that
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: he doesn't really confess to right he What we learned
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: listening to him talk to police is that he loves
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  Speaker 5: to walk right up to the edge of a confession
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  Speaker 5: and then stop right short of giving them the information
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  Speaker 5: they need.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, Drew aka Andrew Eiden, hold on just
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: a moment. We talked about this over and over on
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  Speaker 1: the NG Show at Ahlman, Let Me go to Daryl
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Cohen Darryl Cohen, courum superstar, former felony prosecutor, now a
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: defense attorney. You can find him at Cohen Cooper EASTEP
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: and Allen Darryl. How many times did we have I mean,
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  Speaker 1: a full fledged criminal, just a bad guy and he,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: and it's typically a he. People say, why do you
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  Speaker 1: hate man? I don't hate man. I just hate men
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  Speaker 1: that commit violent crimes. He would go all the way
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  Speaker 1: up to the moment and say something like, yeah, we
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: were driving along and I looked out at the wind,
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  Speaker 1: and I heard a gun shot and at that moment,
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  Speaker 1: that one critical moment. As Andrew is describing leg all
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  Speaker 1: the way up to the moment of the murder and
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  Speaker 1: then backs off Nancy.
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  Speaker 6: So often because most or at least many of those
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  Speaker 6: who have committed Thesehenus crimes cannot admit it to themselves.
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  Speaker 6: They believe that what they were doing was a story.
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  Speaker 6: They were the fairy tale. They were wonderful people. And
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  Speaker 6: oh my gosh, I don't know how that happened. The
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  Speaker 6: gun went off. I didn't have the gun, did I really? Maybe? Sure?
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  Speaker 6: Maybe perhaps these people?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, was that me that pulled the trigger? And you
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  Speaker 1: know another thing, and I want to know if you've
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: noticed this. Bobby Chaconne is joining a special Agent FBI.
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  Speaker 1: Former special agent now screenwriter for Criminal Minds, and I
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: want to clue you into a new documentary you can find.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: It's called After the Fall Little Old Did Bobby and
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  Speaker 1: I know we were both in New York the day
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  Speaker 1: off September eleven, and this is his painstakingly put together
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  Speaker 1: documentary about that day. Bobby Chacone also helped fish the
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  Speaker 1: body as I recall, dismembered in black plastic trash bags
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  Speaker 1: out of an icy lake. It was you there, you
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  Speaker 1: go on top of that ice, trying to pull up
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  Speaker 1: the body parts of that Alaskan burist to cement the Koenig.
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  Speaker 1: That was you, Bobby Chacone, What do you make of
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  Speaker 1: what Drew is telling us about how Israel Keys the
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  Speaker 1: serial killer will go all the way up to the
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  Speaker 1: point of the murder and then back off. And you
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  Speaker 1: know what I've noticed also, Bobby, as you and I
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  Speaker 1: have discussed, they very often won't admit that they sexually
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  Speaker 1: assaulted a victim, rape, sonomy, the whole thing. They leave
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  Speaker 1: that part out. It's like they're more worried about that
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  Speaker 1: than they are about the murder.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really interesting where they draw the lines, right,
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  Speaker 4: because they're so irrational when you try to figure out
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  Speaker 4: the lines they want to draw. In this particular case,
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  Speaker 4: when we were going up there to recover Samantha, we
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  Speaker 4: were told that she had been dismembered and she was
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  Speaker 4: in five separate pieces weighted down. But we were also
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  Speaker 4: told that Keys made a demand that he did not
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  Speaker 4: want that part of it leaked. He didn't want the
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  Speaker 4: part that she had been dismembered leaked to the press,
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  Speaker 4: so we had to be very careful. Normally we recover
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  Speaker 4: a victim like this, we would bring each body part
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  Speaker 4: up in a separate body bag for the medical examiner.
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  Speaker 4: They don't like those commingled when they do their analysis.
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  Speaker 4: But in this case we put Samantha Oll in one
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  Speaker 4: bag and brought it to the surface because the media
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  Speaker 4: was at the shorelines with cameras and stuff, and we
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  Speaker 4: didn't want to clue them in because Keys made that
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  Speaker 4: demand that he didn't mind know that getting out there,
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  Speaker 4: that you know, he sexual assaultant and murdered her, but
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  Speaker 4: he didn't want his eleven year old daughter to know
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  Speaker 4: that he had dismembered her. Really strange line that these
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  Speaker 4: guys draw us.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes security cam at the coffee shop where she worked.
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  Speaker 1: It was a little pop up in the middle of
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  Speaker 1: a parking lot. Really, there is a shopping center around it,
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  Speaker 1: a strip center, but the snow was so high at
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  Speaker 1: that time no one within the center saw Keys approach
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  Speaker 1: the pop up. These are the last known images of
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  Speaker 1: Samantha Koenig, who was thrilled about the possibility of becoming
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: a veterinarian making money there at the coffee shop. I
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  Speaker 1: guess he didn't want his daughter or anyone else to
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  Speaker 1: know that he dismembered her. As to the sex attack,
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  Speaker 1: that he blared loud music so no one inside the
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  Speaker 1: home could hear him out in a hut outdoors raping her.
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  Speaker 1: No one could hear Samantha screaming. And I guess did
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  Speaker 1: he not want doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst,
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  Speaker 1: author of deal Breaker and star of Paris in Love
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany interesting that he didn't want anyone to know
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  Speaker 1: he had dismembered Samantha, and Samantha is one of many.
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  Speaker 1: That's how I found out about Israel Keys is through
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  Speaker 1: Samantha Koenig investigation, and through Bobby Chacone and now through
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  Speaker 1: Andrew Iden. But it's interesting doctor Bethany, the choices serial
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  Speaker 1: killers make about what they want publicized and what they
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  Speaker 1: want to keep secret.
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  Speaker 7: You know, it makes sense to me, Nancy, the questions
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  Speaker 7: you've been asking, because first of all, he starts to
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  Speaker 7: tell the story to the investigators and then he backs off.
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  Speaker 7: I think he's doing that because he's trying to create
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  Speaker 7: some excitement in the room and trying to kind of
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  Speaker 7: tease them like cat and mouse. Look, the excitement he
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  Speaker 7: had before was raping and killing. This is like small potatoes.
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  Speaker 7: It's all he can get, but he's going to get
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  Speaker 7: it as much as he he can. In the interview,
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  Speaker 7: the fact that he is leaving out the sex assaults
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  Speaker 7: is because he's trying to minimize the heinous nature of
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  Speaker 7: what he did, and he doesn't want the public to
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  Speaker 7: know that he dismembered Samantha Koenig because psychopaths are grandiose.
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  Speaker 7: You know, he may feel that he's saying that he
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  Speaker 7: doesn't want his daughter to find out, but I think
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  Speaker 7: there's an inherent narcissism in psychopaths that's a part of
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  Speaker 7: the disorder, and on some level, they sort of feel
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  Speaker 7: proud of their acts. They feel they have fantasies that
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  Speaker 7: they maybe celebrated may go down in history, but oh
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  Speaker 7: this dismember part doesn't make him look so good. So
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  Speaker 7: he's kind trying to prop up his image a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: There going down in history. He's going nowhere but straight
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  Speaker 1: to hell. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to you,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen talking about this guy trying to build suspense
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  Speaker 1: as he tells his story. Normally I would tell somebody
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  Speaker 1: that said that, well, you're crazy, because most criminals are
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  Speaker 1: really dumb. They're not building suspense. They're just idiots. This
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  Speaker 1: guy eluded police for decades. He had killed kits hidden
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  Speaker 1: all over the country. He was never caught. He had
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  Speaker 1: multiple mos modus operadi method of operation. He would stalk campgrounds,
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  Speaker 1: he would stalk RV camps, he would hang out at
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  Speaker 1: rivers like the victim we were just hearing about. But
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: then you've got a case like Samantha Koenig. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: this guy probably is did lead authorities on as he
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  Speaker 1: was telling his story.
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  Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, he knew exactly what he was doing. He
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  Speaker 6: was both bright, he was cunning, he was intelligent, vicious
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  Speaker 6: and a sociopath, a psychopath.
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  Speaker 4: He was all the.
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  Speaker 6: Paths other than a good one. He knew how to
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  Speaker 6: elude the police. He also knew how to elude all
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  Speaker 6: the other law enforcement agencies because he didn't do it
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  Speaker 6: every day, every week, every month. There was no pattern
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  Speaker 6: to his pattern, if that makes any sense. So he
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  Speaker 6: was able to I can.
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  Speaker 1: Tell you this much. I guarantee you there are more bodies.
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  Speaker 1: What can we learn? What can we glean from hearing?
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  Speaker 1: You'll have to hold your nose to do it, but
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  Speaker 1: listen to Israel Keys.
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  Speaker 8: Depends what your definitely said.
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  Speaker 9: So the first time you had sex with somebody against
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  Speaker 9: their room?
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  Speaker 8: No, but that was the first time, I answer, like,
• 13:02
  Speaker 8: had someone tied up, you know, like was ready to
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  Speaker 8: actually kill do that?
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  Speaker 1: You know? Did you hear what he just said? And
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  Speaker 1: by the way, he's laughing at snickering during the whole thing.
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  Speaker 1: Was this the first time you sex assaulted somebody?
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  Speaker 10: Uh?
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  Speaker 1: No, but it's the first time I took it to
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  Speaker 1: that level, like to kill them. Yeah, to do that.
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  Speaker 1: And he's laughing, he's snickering as he is saying that.
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  Speaker 1: But let's let's take it back. How long had this
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  Speaker 1: guy been committing murder's list?
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  Speaker 9: Like you said, got to the Army, and anytime i'd
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  Speaker 9: get to where I had downtime, or you know, if
• 13:38
  Speaker 9: I if I would leave Nian Bay, get out of
• 13:40
  Speaker 9: Nian Bay, and all that.
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  Speaker 4: Stuff was still there.
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  Speaker 9: You know, like every time i'd drive and make a
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  Speaker 9: drive somewhere.
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  Speaker 2: I'd be looking for places, good places to do stuff.
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  Speaker 1: I guarantee you to Andrew Iden, now, co host of
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Deviant Podcast, I guarantee you there are more dead bodies
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  Speaker 1: out there we haven't found yet, but the fact that
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: he was in the army. Has he been traced back
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: to wherever he was stationed, and has there been a
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: search for missing women, because it's always occasionally there'll be
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: a murdered man who was with a woman, but he
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: typically prayed on those that were weaker, less powerful, less
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  Speaker 1: cunning than he. Andrew, have we heard of any searches
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: in the various places where he was stationed.
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  Speaker 5: So what I can tell you is that the FBI
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: and all of the agencies that have been involved in
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: this case from the jump, they've gone to extreme lengths
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: to track down and talk to people that knew keys
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: in the army, So they have infiltrated his entire unit.
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: They've talked to his friends. They've talked to his fellow soldiers,
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  Speaker 5: so they've gone into that corner of his life to
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: see if they can flip over some rocks and see
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: if there's anything to find. The other thing that I
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: can tell you is when you talk to the FBI,
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: you know that video of Israel Keys in that interrogation
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: room that's dated twenty twelve. However, this case is still
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: considered active and open. When you talk to the FBI
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: about it, they are very clear, we need information. Is
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: this a guy that's ever come across your radar. There's
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: so much still that we don't know. So this is
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: not a case that is just in the rear view.
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: This is still very much an active investigator.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Samantha Koenig, a beautiful young barista at an Alaska and
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: coffee stand, suddenly goes missing that evening. Her father realizes
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: it's way too late for her to have been gone
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  Speaker 1: all day and not spoken to him, and he raises
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: the alarm. Samanth the Koenig just one of so so
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: many victims. I'm wanting to hear him speaking about how
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: he finds his victims.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: I'ms out with.
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  Speaker 11: And that place that there's staked out one actually two
• 15:59
  Speaker 11: or three nights. And then I had a park, a
• 16:05
  Speaker 11: couple of parks here in town that I could ride
• 16:07
  Speaker 11: my bike too at those staked out And yeah, there's
• 16:14
  Speaker 11: still a couple of gowns during on a shovel stashed
• 16:18
  Speaker 11: their own.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: He's describing one of his many, many kill kits that
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: he had stashed all around the country. Andrew Iiden, host
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: of Deviant Podcast, explained.
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  Speaker 5: This is a guy that would bury home deboat buckets
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: full of Dreno guns, ropes, chains. He'd bury them in Vermont,
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: he'd bury them in Wisconsin, he'd bury them in Wyoming.
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: And he would do that years in advance. And so
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: you know, he'd bury these, go back to Alaska, live
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: his life for days, weeks, months, years, and then go
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: back to Vermont, dig up that bucket, take it to Essex, Vermont.
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: And ultimately when he killed the couriers Bill in the rain,
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: you know that was with a kill kit that he
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: had buried years ahead of time. So that's really the
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: crux of this meticulous nature that we talk about.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: All And you know, Bobby Chaconne joining us, former special
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: agent with the FBI, screenwriter his new documentary After the
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Fall which is an amazing work regarding nine to onein
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: one he and I'm both in New York the day
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: of September eleven. His story is amazing. After the fall,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Bobby talking about what Andrew Iiden is describing, It's hard
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: to catch a guy like this. There's no connection to
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: the victims, which that makes it Aneela and Haystack start
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: with he is killing people all across the country. There's
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: no region that has been immune to israel keys, and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: he hunts his prey like a wolf. And then he
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: has these kill kits already created and hidden buried all
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: around the country.
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: Sure, and from an investigator standpoint, think of it because
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: we've seen cases where when you see when we find
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: a victim that's bound with rope or chain or something
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: like that, and we can tell, oh, this might have
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: been bought at a nearby, say home depot or hardware store,
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: we go out and we ask them to look at
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: their video from the last three months, six months, whatever.
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: Think about that. He's actually avoiding that investigative step because
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: these things will purchase probably years in advance and hidden,
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: so he knew not to buy these things locally and
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: not to buy them recently. But because that's what investigators do,
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: because often we see, oh, they trace the receipt or
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: they trace something that was bought at a home depot,
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: and there's the killer on the video and the home
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: depot buying the things that they used it. So he
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: knew to avoid that. When I went that homicide school,
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: I was working so many mafia cases in New York
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: that they sent me to the NMBD homicide School. You
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: draw a VND diagram. One circle contains the life of
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: the victim and all the people involved in that life,
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: and the other one, the other circle is the geographic
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: location where the victim is found or murdered and where
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: those two overlap. That's where your pool of suspect might
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: come in. Now he's new to stay random to his
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: victim and random to the geographic location. That puts him
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: outside of most In ninety five percent of the investigative
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: avenues that you're going to follow, he's going to be
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: outside of those because he's not related to the victim.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: He doesn't have what most serial killers have. He doesn't
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: have that victimology, and he doesn't have the geographic kill zone.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: So those two things he knew to avoid and to
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: stay random, and that was a big part of his success.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, because in many, many cases where we have serial killers,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: their mo never deviates. They are in the same region.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: There is a way to connect them to their victims.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: You know, he's been stalking them. He's a grocery store boy,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: he delivery guy, the yard man. There is a way,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: even though tangentle, that you can connect the killer to
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: multiple victims. Not in this case. Speaking of Israel Keys,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: listen from the horse's.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: Mouth, it's not in anything.
• 20:01
  Speaker 7: It's just ropes or something pulled.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: That is that the milk chokes. And he said, well,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: that's what the weeds for milk jokes. How many milk jokes?
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: And they're going to move around, no, how many milk
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: chokes talking about it.
• 20:17
  Speaker 7: At least four or five parta.
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: Just for one body.
• 20:23
  Speaker 12: Yeah, well, Scott Peterson, you didn't have to go to
• 20:29
  Speaker 12: all that trouble making those cement blocks to wait down
• 20:32
  Speaker 12: the body of your wife, Lacy Peterson and her unborn
• 20:36
  Speaker 12: son Connor.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: You know, take a page out of Israel Key's book.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: You just use milk jugs. You know, when you think
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: of the callous nature of the planning, the pre planning
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: before your victim has even been murdered, You're already planning
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: to weight down their body in water to hide the
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: body or destroy evidence. What could be more cold, more calculating.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Just think about it. As he is spotting these victims,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: he's already made weights to hold their bodies down underwater.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Joining me now, a very special guest, a renowned medical examiner,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the chief medical Examiner at Terrance County. That's fort worth,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: never a lack of business for him. Also a prestigious
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, Doctor
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Kendall Crown's, Doctor Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: When a body is weighted down in this manner, as
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: you hear Israel Key say, so deep, the fish don't
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: even go down that far. He has this very well planned.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: With the body down at the bottom of a body
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: of water, what will that do to the evidence? Over
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: a period of.
• 21:59
  Speaker 13: Time in the depths of a lake, the body will
• 22:03
  Speaker 13: continue to decompose. If it's cold, it'll decompose at a
• 22:06
  Speaker 13: slower rate. But you'll also get fish and other aquatic
• 22:11
  Speaker 13: creatures that will eat at the body. So eventually the
• 22:13
  Speaker 13: body will skeletonize. The problem is with weighting the body down.
• 22:17
  Speaker 13: You have to have enough weight to compensate for when
• 22:20
  Speaker 13: the body decomposes and the gas formation begins, the body
• 22:24
  Speaker 13: will bloat or swell up like a balloon and then
• 22:27
  Speaker 13: will float back up to the top of the surface.
• 22:30
  Speaker 13: I've seen people weighted down with paint cans that still
• 22:33
  Speaker 13: float up, cinder blocks, they'll still float up. Even a
• 22:37
  Speaker 13: gentleman that was wrapped in a carpet and shoved in
• 22:39
  Speaker 13: a trash can that was a duct tape shut, he
• 22:42
  Speaker 13: still bobbed up once he decomposed enough. So you have
• 22:45
  Speaker 13: to have enough weight to compensate for the decomposition and
• 22:48
  Speaker 13: it'll still float up. But if they're underneath the water
• 22:52
  Speaker 13: for a long enough period of time, they will decompose, skeletonize,
• 22:55
  Speaker 13: and all the evidence will disappear.
• 22:57
  Speaker 10: James Koenig tries to be patient. By twelve thirty PM,
• 23:01
  Speaker 10: he's on the phone with the Anchorage Police Department reporting
• 23:03
  Speaker 10: his eighteen year old daughter, Samantha missing. He tells police
• 23:06
  Speaker 10: his daughter never came home the night before from her
• 23:09
  Speaker 10: job at common Grounds Espresso. Patrol officers begin asking questions
• 23:12
  Speaker 10: in the area. No signs of a break in, no struggle,
• 23:15
  Speaker 10: no blood. Getting a look at surveillance video, police see
• 23:18
  Speaker 10: a masked man jumping through the window of common Grounds
• 23:21
  Speaker 10: and leading Samantha away.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Samantha Koenig's case brought a great deal of notoriety to
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: the killer. Little did authorities realize at the time of
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: her disappearance they were dealing with a very cunning serial killer.
• 23:37
  Speaker 10: Listen just before eight pm closing time at common Grounds
• 23:40
  Speaker 10: Coffee in Anchorage, Alaska, Israel Keys walks up to the
• 23:43
  Speaker 10: parking lot kiosk and orders an Americano coffee. Eighteen year
• 23:46
  Speaker 10: old Samantha Koenig is finishing up her shift and it
• 23:49
  Speaker 10: looks like Keyes might be her last customer. Turning to
• 23:52
  Speaker 10: hand the man his coffee, Samantha Kenig sees the gun
• 23:54
  Speaker 10: in his hand. Keyes tells her it's robbery to turn
• 23:57
  Speaker 10: off the lights. Key's reaches in and quickly at zip
• 23:59
  Speaker 10: top Cunning's hands behind her back and climbs through the
• 24:02
  Speaker 10: window into the kiosk.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: And what is so amazing here? To dtor Bethany Marshall's
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Psychoalla's joining us out of la is this is brazen
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: There as you can see are parking lights illuminating the area.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: It's right on a very busy thoroughfare street. There's a
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: huge snowbank about six to twelve feet tall surrounding the
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: coffee shop. So many people didn't see what was going on.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: But that takes a lot of hootspot to go in
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: where people can see you and attack the barista and
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: lead her out.
• 24:48
  Speaker 7: Nancy Israel Keys was becoming increasingly emboldened to act out
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: his sexual fantasies, his killing fantasies with these victims. So
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: he starts out in the army, you know, just kind
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: of trolling around looking for possible sites. But this becomes
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: a compulsion that's so deeply baked into his DNA that
• 25:10
  Speaker 7: he's thinking about it all the time, and it becomes
• 25:13
  Speaker 7: very ritualized. The search extends to all over the United States,
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: and it's almost as satisfying to search for victims to
• 25:22
  Speaker 7: bury the kill kits as it is to actually act
• 25:26
  Speaker 7: out the crime. But by the time he gets to
• 25:29
  Speaker 7: Samantha Konig, he's graduated. It's where people could see him.
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: He stitches her eyes open, he makes braids with her hair.
• 25:39
  Speaker 7: He does it in a shed right outside his family home.
• 25:42
  Speaker 7: So at this point It's like he's getting not only
• 25:47
  Speaker 7: more and more emboldened, but it's like a sex addict
• 25:51
  Speaker 7: that starts out going to strip clubs and then they
• 25:54
  Speaker 7: kind of rape somebody, and then pretty much they start
• 25:58
  Speaker 7: graduating to children and kitty porn because they need more
• 26:02
  Speaker 7: and more and more in order to excite them. And Nancy,
• 26:07
  Speaker 7: these interviews that we're seeing, I think he's talking sort
• 26:11
  Speaker 7: of calmly and matter of fact because he imagines he's
• 26:15
  Speaker 7: now the expert on killing. He's the world's leading expert.
• 26:20
  Speaker 7: It's kind of like a car collector who maybe has
• 26:23
  Speaker 7: two hundred cars and he's walking someone around and said,
• 26:26
  Speaker 7: you know, this one is made in nineteen sixty eight,
• 26:28
  Speaker 7: and this is special stitching, and look at the paint job,
• 26:32
  Speaker 7: and that person knows their stuff. Israel Key feels like
• 26:36
  Speaker 7: he knows his stuff. So he's going to take time
• 26:39
  Speaker 7: with his interview so he can kind of educate the world.
• 26:42
  Speaker 7: Be the celebrity, be at the center of things. Like
• 26:44
  Speaker 7: I said earlier, go down in history. This is a
• 26:48
  Speaker 7: part of the ritual is talking about it.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: You know, let's just cut the chase here to Bobby
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Chico and former Special Agent FBI and then to Drew Eiden,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: co host of Deviant Bobby Chacone, you know that as
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: he is telling his story to authorities, he's getting turned
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: on as he's sitting there underneath that table. I don't
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: want to know what's under that table. I guarantee you.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: As he's telling his story, he's reliving the rapes and
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the murders.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Oh sure. And you know that by his posture and
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: by his attitude, his language. And I think he's enjoying
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: the fact that several of the investigators in the room
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: or women, and I think he's getting off on that
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: as well. I think this is his As doctor Bethany
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: mentioned earlier, this is kind of his last guest. He
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: knows he's he's nobody. He's not getting out, and what
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: little joy he can get, his psychosexual joy he can get,
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: is going to come in.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: This by Bobby, get real from plays as if you
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: hadn't already been real. How many times have you sat
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: across from a defendant light Keys? Actually I don't know
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: that there is another defendant like Keys, but a definant
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: similar to Keys. And you know, as you're talking to
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: him and he's giving his story, he's getting turned on.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I don't guess you need your mind to go to
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that extent about exactly what's happening under that table. But
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you know it's true. It's oh really because you and
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I know what a murder saying is really like. It's
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: not like in the movies. It's horrible, but he likes it.
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And at that point, I mean, you can see
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: a candy bar that they brought to him, you know,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: on the table there. I mean, look, what what they're
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: doing is they are hyper focused. You know, Nancy, there's
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: a prosecutor in there that they're hyper focused at getting
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: him on the record to say things that are going
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: they're going to be able to use against him in
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: a court in proceedings. So all of that other stuff
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: is kind of you have to deal with it, but
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: you kind of put it aside because you need to
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: get the admissions, you need to get the confessions, you
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: need to get the statements he's going to say out
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: of his mouth. You can't kind of extrapolate it. You
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: have to get him to say those things. So you
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: ask him the question eight different times, get him to
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: say the words I kill them, you know, and that
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: kind of thing. So they're hyper focused on that and
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: the rest of that stuff you just have to deal
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: with kind of on the side in the background, and
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: to get him.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: To okay, you know what, maybe you can set it aside.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Bobby Chaconne, but Andrew Iden, the co host of a
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: deviant podcast. Every time you play these caught on tape
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: videos and audio, you know that as he is describing
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: the rapes and the murders, he's reliving it in his mind,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: and as doctor Bethany calls it, his arousal is full on.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: So just keep that in mind when you're watching him,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: because that's where he's coming from. That's the way his
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: mind works. To rape and murder somebody and murder the
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: husband and murder the boyfriend or whoever else is around.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: That's his idea of dinner hythm.
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And in fact, you know, when you look at
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: him having these conversations with law enforcement in the interrogation room,
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: you can see that. And one of the things we
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: learned in talking to Jeff Bell, who was a detective
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: in that room with the Anchorage PD. He told us
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: in the process of doing this this series is that
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: the chair that Key sat in there was a there
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: was a day that they were sitting in a wooden chair,
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: and he said, Key scratched the wood off of the
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: arms of the chair while he was retelling the story.
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: And he said, you could see the hair on his
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: arms standing up. And so it was apparent to Jeff Bell,
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: who's writing that video, that he was seeing this all
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: unfold while Keys was telling him.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: This crime stories with Nancy Grace Andrew. I I'm totally
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: going to listen to every every single episode of Deviant
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: because when you were just describing, it's your Keys scratching
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: the wood on the chair as he's telling the story Jackie,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: you know, Jackie and our producer actually had to get
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: rid of the shivers are off.
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: Yes, well, I was gonna say, I think oftentimes when
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: we talk about these stories, oftentimes there's a lot of
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: hyperbole involved in about in describing these things. But everything
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: that Israel Keys is is a real life horror film
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: from start to finish.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, look at Nancy. If you look at that
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: video there you see on the left that Jolene I
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: believe that's Jolene the FBI case A check. But you
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: can look at her posture, look at how she's you
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: can almost see how how repulse she is by this,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: her hands are by her sides, by her sides, or
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: hands are in her lives. I mean you, as a
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: normal person, you know, being in the presence of such evil,
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: you you are affected by you repulse by it.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Of course, somebody like Israel Keys has to have the
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: perfect let me just say, perfectly outfitted vehicle.
• 32:11
  Speaker 10: Listen, the truck Israel Keys is driving has been temporarily
• 32:15
  Speaker 10: modified before he left the house. He removed the permanent
• 32:18
  Speaker 10: toolbox from the back and took off both license plates.
• 32:21
  Speaker 10: Keys demand Samantha Cone give him her ATM card, but
• 32:24
  Speaker 10: she tells him it's in the truck she shares with
• 32:27
  Speaker 10: her boyfriend at their house. Keys drives to his house,
• 32:30
  Speaker 10: ties up coning in the shed, turns up the radio,
• 32:32
  Speaker 10: allows that nobody can hear her scream, then leaves to
• 32:35
  Speaker 10: retrieve her ATM card from her truck. As Keys is
• 32:38
  Speaker 10: retrieving the ATM card, Samantha Cooney's boyfriend sees him and
• 32:41
  Speaker 10: shouts Ducking into the house and gets some help. He
• 32:43
  Speaker 10: tries to confront the man messing with his truck, but
• 32:46
  Speaker 10: when he comes out of the house, he's is gone.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: A narrow escape, but yes, he does escape, but what
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: about Samantha. Listen.
• 32:53
  Speaker 10: Samantha Coning is tied up in his shed in back
• 32:56
  Speaker 10: of the home Israel Keys shares with his girlfriend and
• 32:59
  Speaker 10: her daughter. When Keys arrives back at the shed, he
• 33:02
  Speaker 10: sexually assaults Samantha Konig twice. Then first thing in the morning,
• 33:06
  Speaker 10: he strangles her to death and puts her body in
• 33:08
  Speaker 10: a freezer. Then leaves with his girlfriend for a pre
• 33:12
  Speaker 10: booked family cruise vacation, leaving out of New Orleans.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's like putting the leftovers from dinner into the
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: freezer then heading out on vacation. He did that to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Samantha's body, but he wasn't done yet. Listen.
• 33:27
  Speaker 10: Returning from his two week family vacation, Israel Keys removes
• 33:31
  Speaker 10: the now frozen corpse of Samantha Konig, using a hairdryer
• 33:35
  Speaker 10: to thaw her out. He uses makeup and braids her
• 33:38
  Speaker 10: hair to take a proof of life photo he's going
• 33:40
  Speaker 10: to use for the ransom. Taking a picture of Samantha,
• 33:43
  Speaker 10: Israel Key's arm is seen holding a copy of the
• 33:46
  Speaker 10: Anchorage Daily News from February twelfth. He places a black
• 33:49
  Speaker 10: and white copy of the photo in his ziplock baggy
• 33:52
  Speaker 10: with a ransom demand of thirty thousand dollars deposited into
• 33:55
  Speaker 10: the account of Samantha Konig and tapes it to a
• 33:58
  Speaker 10: missing dog poster in Connor's bog part.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: And then Samantha's father is led to that park where
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: he sees the ransom photo and the money demand. Okay,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: let me understand this, Andrew Iden joining us, co host
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: of Deviant podcast. He uses a hair dryer to thaw
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: out her body.
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the details of what he did after he got
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: back from that Houston that cruise are horrific. And disposing
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: of her body in the lake after he had pulled
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: her remains out of that shed, that period after the
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: cruise for about two weeks is truly some of the
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: most terrific things that I've ever read and never heard
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: in covering crime for twenty years.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: What aspect are you describing? Are you to which you
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: are referring Andrew.
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: Well, it's the process of him dumping her body in
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: the lake piece by piece and basically making sure that
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: all of the things that he did are it up.
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: And it's just it's horrific. I mean, it's a horror film.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Like I mentioned before, Doctor Bethony Jump in.
• 35:06
  Speaker 7: If we think of raping and killing as a part
• 35:08
  Speaker 7: of a sexual act for him, that the whole ritual
• 35:11
  Speaker 7: is arousing. I think what happened is that he had
• 35:14
  Speaker 7: to do it right before the cruise because he knows
• 35:16
  Speaker 7: that he knew that on the cruise he wouldn't be
• 35:18
  Speaker 7: able to act out his killing homicidal instinct. It's a
• 35:22
  Speaker 7: little bit like with alcoholics we see sometimes the night
• 35:25
  Speaker 7: before they go into detox or rehab, they binge. This
• 35:29
  Speaker 7: was like his binge before appearing with sobriety, and he
• 35:34
  Speaker 7: was probably thinking about it all throughout the cruise and
• 35:36
  Speaker 7: planning his return.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns, can't you look at a body a
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: determined whether it has been frozen.
• 35:43
  Speaker 13: You can look at a body and when someone dies
• 35:45
  Speaker 13: of hyper hypothermia, you can tell that there are changes
• 35:49
  Speaker 13: about the body that kind of turn a reddish pink color.
• 35:52
  Speaker 13: If a body's been frozen, the lividity or the post
• 35:56
  Speaker 13: mortem coloration change will be kind of a bright red color.
• 36:00
  Speaker 13: But beyond that, there is not really any changes that
• 36:03
  Speaker 13: you can see with a frozen body that are specific
• 36:07
  Speaker 13: to that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 10: After getting a confession from Israel Keys, the FBI dive
• 36:11
  Speaker 10: team is tasked with attempting to recover Samantha Konig's body
• 36:15
  Speaker 10: from frozen Matatanuska Lake. Before a search can begin, a
• 36:19
  Speaker 10: four foot by four foot hole is cut in the
• 36:21
  Speaker 10: ice with chainsaws. The FBI dive team resorts to using
• 36:25
  Speaker 10: sonar to guide them in low visibility, and it takes
• 36:28
  Speaker 10: the team of experts about ten hours to recover the
• 36:30
  Speaker 10: body of Samantha cone Enter.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: A former FBI special agent, Bobby Chickone, now screenwriter for
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Criminal Minds and creator of a new documentary After the Fall,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Bobby described what it was like out there, what you
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: went through trying to retrieve Samantha Koenig's body.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: Well, Nancy, first of all, it was the brightest, clearest,
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: most beautiful day.
• 36:55
  Speaker 14: And that was the dichotomy of the situation, was that
• 36:58
  Speaker 14: we were in this immensely beautiful location with the mountains
• 37:02
  Speaker 14: and the snow, and we were doing this horrific mission
• 37:05
  Speaker 14: to recover this poor young woman.
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: You know, when it was tough. The conditions were tough,
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: but we've done this before. We certainly dived in tougher conditions.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: But it wasn't that deep. It was about forty five
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: feet deep. The entire dive took about forty five minutes.
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: It wasn't a It was long to set up. You see,
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: whenever you're working around ice and a holes, everybody has
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: to be tethered in somewhere to a hard point so
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: if you fall in, so there's this safety considerations. But
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: the dive itself was not that difficult. Everything matched exactly
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: what Keys told us it was in the location. We
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: saw the five different parts that he told us about.
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: It was a torso there was two legs, there was
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: two arms that were down together as one, and that
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: was her head. And so those are the five pieces
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: that showed up on the sonar. We sent a small
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: mini RV down with a camera to make sure it
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: was human remains. And then once we did those two methods,
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: then I splashed the divers and that dive took about
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: forty five minutes. Again, like I said, it would have
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: taken longer, but we were able to put Samantha all
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: into one body bag because of the fact that Keys
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: had made that demand on us not to tip off
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: the press that she had been dismembered. But certainly when
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: I handled Samantha's remains, I could tell that some of
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: the water had washed off, and I saw the stitching
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: on her eyelids as I was transferring her to the
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: possession of the medical examiners investigators who were there taking
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: possession of her remains.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: And then we find out in a completely differentm method
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: of operation than murders of Bill and Lorran Courrier.
• 38:37
  Speaker 10: Listen, during a vacation to Vermont, Israel, Keys burries a
• 38:41
  Speaker 10: five gallon orange bugget filled with zip ties, ammunition guns, silencers,
• 38:46
  Speaker 10: draino duct tape, and a flashlight in her remote corner
• 38:49
  Speaker 10: of the woodside natural area off Vermont fifteen. Over the years,
• 38:53
  Speaker 10: Keys has buried several killed kids in places he's been traveling.
• 38:56
  Speaker 10: Years later, Keys digs up the kit in Vermont out
• 39:00
  Speaker 10: the home of Bill and Lorraine Courier. There are no
• 39:02
  Speaker 10: children in the home and it's within walking distance of
• 39:05
  Speaker 10: his hotel.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Andrew Iiden, co host of Deviant Podcast, I've got too
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: many Keys as victims, and there's still so many other
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: victims that we don't know about, haven't found their bodies yet.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: But here we see a start dichotomy in the way
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: he murdered and dismembered Samantha Koenig and the way he
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: murdered and left the couriers. Explain about the couriers.
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so Bill and the Rain would lived in Essex, Vermont,
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: and Israel Keys talked at length about waiting outside their home,
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: cutting the phone line to disable the security system, kidnapping
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: them essentially, and taking them a few miles away to
• 39:41
  Speaker 5: an abandoned farmhouse, and that's where he sexually assaulted Lorraine,
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: strangled her, and actually shot Bill in the midst of it.
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: Kind of a struggle they were having in the house,
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: and he left their remains there. So you're right, Bill
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: and the Rain in that crime is everything that Samantha
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: Koenig was not right. It was two, it was instead
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: of one. They were older, Samantha was younger. You know,
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: they were in Vermont, Samantha was in Alaska. So there's
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: really kind of a dichotomy between these two crimes, as
• 40:08
  Speaker 5: you mentioned with mo, they're two very different crimes in
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: a lot of different ways.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: We know of the eleven to which he has admitted,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: and we believe there is somewhere that we'll be discovered
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: at some point somewhere between twenty and thirty bodies Israel
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Keys serial killer. Thank you so much to the guests
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: joining us today, but especially to you, Nancy Gray signing
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: off good night friend,