Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #828 Playing Roulette With Online Safety

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#828 Playing Roulette With Online Safety · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.
0:10
Speaker 2: Now this is the big one. You've got to talk
0:12
Speaker 2: through the what ifs. What if this happened, what if
0:16
Speaker 2: that happened? What about if it was your friend? Who
0:20
Speaker 2: would you talk to? Where would you go?
0:22
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum
0:25
Speaker 1: and dad.
0:26
Speaker 2: Gooday. This is doctor Justin Coilson, the founder of Happy
0:28
Speaker 2: Families dot com, dot you, and the parenting expert and
0:31
Speaker 2: co host of Channel nine's hip TV show Parental Guidance.
0:34
Speaker 2: I'm here with Kylie, my wife and mum to our
0:36
Speaker 2: six daughters, and a quick content warning. Some of the
0:39
Speaker 2: things that we're going to be talking about today are
0:42
Speaker 2: of a strong nature. They revolve around issues to do
0:47
Speaker 2: with intimacy, grooming, and some really big challenges that are
0:51
Speaker 2: consistently coming up in our conversations with other people when
0:53
Speaker 2: it comes to parenting in the online world, and we
0:55
Speaker 2: just have to address it. So if you have young
0:58
Speaker 2: ones listening, please make sure that you are aware that
1:02
Speaker 2: some of the content is parental Guidance recommended Kylie. Recently,
1:07
Speaker 2: there was an article in the Guardian. One of my
1:10
Speaker 2: friends Kira Pendergast from Safe on Social was interviewed for
1:15
Speaker 2: The Garden a Guardian interviewed for The Gardener interviewed for
1:18
Speaker 2: The Guardian and what I'm going to share with you
1:21
Speaker 2: So if you ignored my content wanting before, I just
1:23
Speaker 2: need to let you know this is the really heavy
1:25
Speaker 2: duty stuff right now, So you might want to press pause.
1:28
Speaker 2: Here we go. In the article, it starts by saying,
1:31
Speaker 2: and this is a direct quote from Kira, she says,
1:34
Speaker 2: in less than thirty seconds, I saw a man clearly
1:38
Speaker 2: masturbating on camera. She's describing a visit to the website
1:43
Speaker 2: a megal. So the article goes on to explain Amigal
1:46
Speaker 2: is a type of video and chat roulette with the
1:49
Speaker 2: tagline talk to strangers Roulette, meaning you drop the ball
1:53
Speaker 2: onto the wheel and it could land on black or
1:55
Speaker 2: red and any number of numbers. Right, that's the idea
1:58
Speaker 2: of roulette. So video and chat rulet it years ago.
2:00
Speaker 2: I'm talking like ten to fifteen years ago. There are
2:03
Speaker 2: a number of sites that popped up, including one that
2:05
Speaker 2: was called chat Roulette. And you literally you got onto
2:07
Speaker 2: the internet and you just pressed the button and you
2:10
Speaker 2: would be connected with some random from anywhere in the
2:12
Speaker 2: world so that you could chat with them, make friends online,
2:15
Speaker 2: brand new whatever. Obviously this has been exploited and gone
2:18
Speaker 2: dark very fast, and a megal is one of the
2:21
Speaker 2: apps that has persisted through all of the years. It's
2:25
Speaker 2: just sort of it just won't die.
2:27
Speaker 3: I kind of live in a bubble with this stuff.
2:29
Speaker 2: You never heard of it, I know, well, this is
2:31
Speaker 2: the thing. So there's no need to register for something
2:34
Speaker 2: like a megal. You don't have to log in, you
2:36
Speaker 2: don't even need the app. You just go to the website.
2:37
Speaker 2: You tick a box. It says that you're over eighteen
2:39
Speaker 2: and you're away, even obviously if you're not eighteen. And
2:43
Speaker 2: in this article, the journalists who wrote the article, Tory Shepherd,
2:47
Speaker 2: just said, parents tell Guardian Australia that playing quote unquote
2:50
Speaker 2: playing and is not playing. You're visiting the website, You're
2:53
Speaker 2: not playing on the website. Playing on a megal is
2:56
Speaker 2: something kids do at parties, at sleepovers or it is
3:00
Speaker 2: one person in the group to have a screen with
3:01
Speaker 2: internet access and before long they are chatting to strangers
3:06
Speaker 2: all over the world. The Guardian tried it following the
3:11
Speaker 2: conversation with the parents and with Kira, and they said
3:13
Speaker 2: it was a whirlwind of man after man in darkened
3:17
Speaker 2: room waiting. Now, this is the bit that really gives me,
3:21
Speaker 2: gives me chills. And then they're not the nice ones.
3:24
Speaker 2: You see the stranger and then you chat, or you
3:27
Speaker 2: click and move on. Click another man, Click another man.
3:32
Speaker 2: And this is the bit that breaks my heart. Click
3:35
Speaker 2: three young girls sitting on a bed in their pajamas.
3:41
Speaker 2: So here's these three girls that are playing on this
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Speaker 2: thing and they're just going click, click, click, and all
3:45
Speaker 2: they're seeing is men, usually naked men, following themselves in
3:50
Speaker 2: this thing. Now, Amgal is not hugely popular with kids,
3:53
Speaker 2: but it is popular enough. It's been around since two
3:56
Speaker 2: thousand and nine and it just will not die. And
4:00
Speaker 2: what we're seeing is more and more and more kids
4:02
Speaker 2: who are we're seeing more reports of online child sexual exploitation.
4:08
Speaker 2: The ACE, who we talk to often a strange Senate's
4:11
Speaker 2: child exploitation seventeen and a half thousand reports in twenty eighteen,
4:15
Speaker 2: thirty three, twenty twenty one.
4:18
Speaker 3: That's staggering.
4:18
Speaker 2: Thirty three thousand kids in Australia reporting that they've been
4:23
Speaker 2: used by people using technology in an abusive way. Now
4:26
Speaker 2: now we're talking about the abusive stuff. We're not just
4:28
Speaker 2: talking about the voyeuristic stuff like ameigal. But the last
4:32
Speaker 2: thing that I want to mention on this, Kyleie, is this.
4:33
Speaker 2: It's a report from online Guardians using data from about
4:36
Speaker 2: three thousand New South Wales students who are under the
4:39
Speaker 2: age of thirteen under thirteen, they found that roadblocks had
4:44
Speaker 2: four times more bullying than any other platform, followed by Fortnite,
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Speaker 2: Discord and TikTok So, the Safety Commissioner Ace, they're all
4:53
Speaker 2: looking at this, they're all having really important conversations about it.
4:55
Speaker 2: I will link, by the way to the article that
4:58
Speaker 2: I've just cited in the shown so that anybody who
5:01
Speaker 2: wants to read more about that can can find the
5:03
Speaker 2: information that they're looking for. But it reminded me, Kylie,
5:07
Speaker 2: of the activity the challenge that we did in parental
5:12
Speaker 2: guidance to see whether or not kids playing ropeblocks for
5:15
Speaker 2: just an hour could be groomed.
5:18
Speaker 4: Your online name is Pizza, and you're trying to establish
5:20
Speaker 4: a relationship with Funny Animal, Maybe start by introducing yourself.
5:25
Speaker 5: Her name's Lilli.
5:27
Speaker 2: She says, her name's Pepper.
5:28
Speaker 4: That's information she shouldn't be giving out. See if you
5:35
Speaker 4: can get her away from the rest of the other users.
5:39
Speaker 5: Let me go to my house as she's following.
5:45
Speaker 4: So offenders will often try to move a child away
5:48
Speaker 4: from other users so that they can chat in private.
5:51
Speaker 4: See if we can find out where she lives. Maybe
5:53
Speaker 4: start with a state.
5:56
Speaker 2: She's taught me us something already.
5:58
Speaker 4: She's being very open with you. Ask if she knows
6:00
Speaker 4: the local shopping center.
6:08
Speaker 5: She says she does.
6:09
Speaker 4: Okay, keep building the relationship. See if she'd like to
6:11
Speaker 4: meet you at the shopping center.
6:13
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we should.
6:18
Speaker 5: Meet up, she said, yes, Oh my god, she's said
6:32
Speaker 5: to me as a friend.
6:33
Speaker 4: So for offenders, this would provide an opportunity to continue
6:36
Speaker 4: building the relationship and perhaps arrange a real meet or
6:40
Speaker 4: exchange photos. They could attempt to locate her. They know
6:44
Speaker 4: her real name, her suburb, and her local shopping center.
6:48
Speaker 4: It's really sad because this little girl just wants to
6:50
Speaker 4: play a game and meet some friends.
6:52
Speaker 3: So this is a new footage.
6:54
Speaker 2: We're both sitting here weeping.
6:57
Speaker 3: But my body has wanted so powerfully.
7:01
Speaker 2: Viscerally, viscerally, and just for those who missed it and
7:04
Speaker 2: who have not yet seen this on the TV, This
7:06
Speaker 2: was episode one of Parendal Guidance Season two. We did
7:09
Speaker 2: this with the Australian Federal Police with ACE the Australian
7:11
Speaker 2: Senator account child exploitation, and we have the police officer
7:14
Speaker 2: sitting in the room coaching our actor as he attempts
7:17
Speaker 2: to make contact with and then connect with in person
7:22
Speaker 2: these kids.
7:23
Speaker 3: So interestingly, our family has in lots of ways I'm
7:28
Speaker 3: going to say, dodged a bullet our kids.
7:30
Speaker 2: Well, and that's been by design. Let me be really
7:33
Speaker 2: clear about that. That's been completely because we have insisted
7:37
Speaker 2: that we don't have this stuff in our home.
7:39
Speaker 3: And while from time to time they have definitely been
7:42
Speaker 3: at friends houses and they have connected with games.
7:45
Speaker 2: And that's the big issue for families like us who say,
7:49
Speaker 2: oh it doesn't apply to me.
7:50
Speaker 3: The friendships that they have mostly had have not revolved
7:54
Speaker 3: around screen time in that regard, right like games?
7:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. But this is the central point that we
8:02
Speaker 2: need to ram home and that's why I wanted to
8:04
Speaker 2: do this podcast. Today. I read Kira's interview in The Guardian.
8:09
Speaker 2: I reflected on what happened when it comes to digital kids.
8:12
Speaker 2: That activity that we did with the kids in Pronal Guidance,
8:15
Speaker 2: and I just thought you and I we've raised kids
8:19
Speaker 2: in a context where we have minimized their access to
8:22
Speaker 2: and their exposure to games like Roadblogs or Minecraft.
8:25
Speaker 3: Helper's parents had done, which is so.
8:27
Speaker 2: That's right. In fact, many of the families that were
8:29
Speaker 2: on Parnal Guidance were in that situation. But then they
8:31
Speaker 2: go to a friend's house or they have the opportunity
8:33
Speaker 2: to be on the screen, and even if the conversations
8:36
Speaker 2: have happened, and this is the thing the Lighthouse parents
8:38
Speaker 2: in Parnal Guidance said, We've talked to her about this,
8:42
Speaker 2: even then, they're still susceptible to approach when they're given
8:47
Speaker 2: the opportunity.
8:48
Speaker 3: I guess if I had never watched Parental Guidance, if
8:51
Speaker 3: I actually hadn't have seen it happen like that, and
8:54
Speaker 3: if I hadn't have seen just how deceptive things are.
8:59
Speaker 3: So for me, I usually take things at face value. Yes,
9:03
Speaker 3: my kid's playing on the screen, and just like Pepper,
9:05
Speaker 3: she's thinking, I've made a new friend and they live
9:07
Speaker 3: close by and I can catch up with them. And
9:10
Speaker 3: so while as a parent, I obviously wouldn't be overly
9:12
Speaker 3: excited about my child wanting to go and catch up
9:15
Speaker 3: with someone. In my mind, she's playing in a pool
9:18
Speaker 3: of ten year olds. That's what I think. Yeah, But
9:21
Speaker 3: the reality is seeing it unfold like that and recognizing
9:25
Speaker 3: that just because somebody says they're ten is not the case.
9:29
Speaker 3: We don't live in that kind of world anymore.
9:32
Speaker 2: There's a great cartoon from Gary Larsen who did The
9:35
Speaker 2: Far Side, and it's so quaint and yet so true.
9:39
Speaker 2: There's a dog sitting in front of a computer, tapping
9:42
Speaker 2: away in a chat room, and underneath it it has
9:45
Speaker 2: this little quote that says, on the Internet, nobody knows
9:48
Speaker 2: that you're a dog. So you got this puppy dog
9:50
Speaker 2: that's pretending to be a person. And it's just beautiful
9:53
Speaker 2: and light and funny. But the dark side of that,
9:57
Speaker 2: the flip side, is on the internet, nobody knows the
10:00
Speaker 2: you're a perverted adult who is trying to groom a
10:02
Speaker 2: ten year old.
10:03
Speaker 3: And as you read the article you shared, just simple
10:08
Speaker 3: acts that are being requested of our kids in relation
10:12
Speaker 3: to a simple game like roadblocks.
10:15
Speaker 2: It's row blocks, rob not road blocks.
10:19
Speaker 3: Isn't there a game Roadblocks the kids played all the time.
10:22
Speaker 2: It's roadblocks, not road blocks. I think you've just become
10:26
Speaker 2: your mom. This is the thing where as parents, we've
10:29
Speaker 2: got to be across it, and we I think the
10:31
Speaker 2: great challenges. We can't be across everything.
10:34
Speaker 3: And we can't be in our kids' space all the time.
10:36
Speaker 2: So I'm going to share four ideas that can help
10:39
Speaker 2: us to turn the anxiety into opportunity, because the tech
10:44
Speaker 2: world really does offer enormous opportunity.
10:49
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to hand this over to you as
10:51
Speaker 3: the expert, because this is definitely not an area that's
10:55
Speaker 3: clearly block experience. So what do you take homes?
11:01
Speaker 5: Like?
11:02
Speaker 3: How can parents help pre arm That's where I want
11:06
Speaker 3: to use. We are our kids because regardless of whether
11:10
Speaker 3: we're intentional about having it in our home or not,
11:13
Speaker 3: our kids are.
11:14
Speaker 2: Exposed to it one hundred percent. So knowledge is power.
11:18
Speaker 2: We have got to read the article's, listen to the podcast,
11:20
Speaker 2: just be aware of stuff, and this conversation that we're
11:23
Speaker 2: having becomes knowledge for everyone who's hearing it.
11:26
Speaker 3: Okay, but the Lighthouse parents were armed with knowledge and
11:29
Speaker 3: they were having those conversations, and their child still found
11:32
Speaker 3: herself in a position that was just so compromised.
11:35
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is when we move into the four
11:38
Speaker 2: things that I want to talk about. Number One, we
11:40
Speaker 2: have got we have absolutely got to be actively engaged.
11:44
Speaker 2: One of the things that we did was we intentionally
11:46
Speaker 2: stuck them in a room where there was no parental guidance,
11:49
Speaker 2: that they were away from their kids. And so this
11:53
Speaker 2: is this is absolutely critical with younger children especially. They
11:58
Speaker 2: have got to be on devices in places where we
12:00
Speaker 2: can be supervising, monitoring, and actively engaged. Number Two, we
12:08
Speaker 2: have got to develop processes together. And what I mean
12:11
Speaker 2: by that is we actually talk to the kids about
12:14
Speaker 2: the things that we're learning, the things that we're hearing,
12:16
Speaker 2: the things that they're doing. You probably remember in Parental Guidance,
12:21
Speaker 2: Kat the honest parent had a look at the iPad
12:24
Speaker 2: after the hour was up, after her daughter had also
12:27
Speaker 2: made some egregious decisions that put her in danger, and
12:32
Speaker 2: she said, what's going on in this chat? And her
12:34
Speaker 2: daughter was dishonest. So kids have got to know that
12:38
Speaker 2: they're going to be safe no matter what. To talk
12:40
Speaker 2: to us about things that are going on. Did somebody
12:42
Speaker 2: try to take me off the platform to a different platform,
12:45
Speaker 2: maybe where there's encrypted messaging so that nobody knows what's
12:49
Speaker 2: going on. Did they invite me to play doctors and nurses,
12:54
Speaker 2: did they start to talk to me about things that
12:56
Speaker 2: were inappropriate. We've got to have those conversations directly with
12:59
Speaker 2: our children, ideally in a pre arming way ahead of time,
13:03
Speaker 2: and then develop processes together. If you're ever in a
13:05
Speaker 2: game and this happens, what will you do if you're
13:08
Speaker 2: ever at a sleepover party and someone says, hey, let's
13:11
Speaker 2: play a megal. Let's do this live video chat roulette
13:15
Speaker 2: and just see what comes up? What will you do
13:18
Speaker 2: if you're at a sleepover, or at a sports camp
13:20
Speaker 2: or school camp, or maybe you're on the bus on
13:23
Speaker 2: the way home from school and somebody tries to show
13:25
Speaker 2: you something on the internet that is not okay? What
13:29
Speaker 2: will you do? And you develop the processes together? You actually,
13:33
Speaker 2: I guess you do dry runs at home in the
13:35
Speaker 2: living room where it's totally safe and where they can
13:37
Speaker 2: make mistakes, and you can say, how do you think
13:39
Speaker 2: they'll respond to that? What else could you say? And
13:40
Speaker 2: you start to guide them through the process. So number
13:43
Speaker 2: one active engagement. Number two develop processes with them. You
13:46
Speaker 2: and I. On the first Sunday of every month, we
13:48
Speaker 2: sit down with our kids and we have some tough
13:50
Speaker 2: conversations first Sunday of every month, usually about intimacy, but
13:53
Speaker 2: sometimes about other things like what's happening online, which ties
13:57
Speaker 2: back to intimacy, whether it's pornography or grooming or whatever
14:01
Speaker 2: it might be. And it's having those regular, I mean
14:04
Speaker 2: monthly conversations about this sort of stuff that helps the
14:07
Speaker 2: kids to see that number one, you are actively engaged,
14:09
Speaker 2: you're monitoring, surveilling, supervising, and number two, you're working through
14:13
Speaker 2: the processes together. Number three, this is the big one.
14:17
Speaker 2: You've got to talk through the what ifs, what if
14:20
Speaker 2: this happened, what if that happened? What about if it
14:24
Speaker 2: was your friend, who would you talk to? Where would
14:27
Speaker 2: you go? And then the hardest thing of all is
14:29
Speaker 2: my fourth and final tip, and that is you've got
14:31
Speaker 2: to stay on top of it. And the reason I
14:33
Speaker 2: say it's the hardest one of all is because we
14:36
Speaker 2: get busy, we get complacent. Everything seems like it's fine.
14:41
Speaker 3: Well, and you think you've had the conversation and.
14:43
Speaker 2: You feel like you've had the conversation and you're like, oh,
14:45
Speaker 2: do we really and the kids are like, oh, do
14:46
Speaker 2: we have to talk about this again? Like it can
14:48
Speaker 2: be painful, and.
14:49
Speaker 3: I've noticed it probably with having had six children. There's
14:55
Speaker 3: almost this like I feel like a bit of a
14:56
Speaker 3: broken record because I've been through it three times.
14:59
Speaker 2: But here's the thing, with.
15:00
Speaker 3: Three different kids, and now I've got to do it again,
15:02
Speaker 3: And in my head, it's almost like I've already had
15:05
Speaker 3: this conversation.
15:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, dozens of times with the first three kids. Why
15:08
Speaker 2: do we have to keep doing it with the later kids?
15:10
Speaker 3: But it doesn't even equate to the fact that we
15:13
Speaker 3: haven't done it with the three younger kids. Yes, it's
15:15
Speaker 3: the fact that I've had these conversations over and over
15:18
Speaker 3: and over again, and it's not until I sit down
15:20
Speaker 3: and go, actually, we probably haven't talked enough to miss
15:23
Speaker 3: eate about this.
15:24
Speaker 2: One more thing that I want to say, a really
15:27
Speaker 2: understandable reaction to a discussion like this is I've just
15:31
Speaker 2: got to keep my kids off screens. They can never
15:33
Speaker 2: go near a screen. I'm certainly not going to let
15:35
Speaker 2: them play road to blocks.
15:36
Speaker 3: Well, I think the show did such a beautiful job.
15:39
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about I think the show did such
15:41
Speaker 3: a beautiful job of just highlighting how even in spite
15:45
Speaker 3: of that, our kids are insignificant danger if we don't
15:48
Speaker 3: have these conversations.
15:50
Speaker 2: Beyond that, though, the screens are going to be a
15:53
Speaker 2: part of their lives no matter what, and there are
15:55
Speaker 2: enormous opportunities and advantages to being screen literate. Our children
15:59
Speaker 2: need to know how this because they will be using
16:02
Speaker 2: screens for the rest of their lives almost certainly, except
16:05
Speaker 2: in very rare exceptions. So we're not trying to take
16:08
Speaker 2: away screens. We're not trying to take away relationships. We're
16:11
Speaker 2: not trying to take away curiosity, growth, experimentation, learning. What
16:15
Speaker 2: we're trying to do is harness it and direct it
16:18
Speaker 2: towards pro social and positive outcomes. And I just don't
16:21
Speaker 2: want anyone to go and ban their kids from screens
16:23
Speaker 2: full stop, end of story, but minimize their access to
16:26
Speaker 2: risks and dangers and then talk through in an actively
16:29
Speaker 2: engaged way with appropriate processes, the what ifs and the challenges,
16:34
Speaker 2: and then stay on top of it.
16:36
Speaker 3: The only other thing that I can think of it
16:39
Speaker 3: is literally just come to my mind in something that
16:41
Speaker 3: we've done with our kids, been really intentional about. It's
16:44
Speaker 3: about that village mentality, but it's having conversations with the
16:50
Speaker 3: kids friends' parents. Yeah, you know, so I would have
16:55
Speaker 3: conversations about what are the kids going to do when
16:57
Speaker 3: they come over and play at your place. We really
17:00
Speaker 3: try to minimize their screen time, or we make sure
17:04
Speaker 3: that our kids only watch these kinds of movies or
17:06
Speaker 3: things like that. Having those conversations pre arms me about
17:10
Speaker 3: what's actually going to happen in the home, and if
17:12
Speaker 3: it's something that those families wouldn't normally do, it actually
17:18
Speaker 3: gives them, I guess, a guideline on what we expect.
17:24
Speaker 3: And for the most part, I think parents are really respectful.
17:28
Speaker 3: They want their kids to have friends and good friends,
17:30
Speaker 3: and they want them to be able to spend time together.
17:31
Speaker 3: And they know if they kind of break that trust,
17:34
Speaker 3: that the chances of their children being able to hang
17:37
Speaker 3: out with your children is lessened. So I think that
17:40
Speaker 3: that's been something that we've done and it's been really effective.
17:43
Speaker 2: It can be tricky to have the conversations, but I
17:45
Speaker 2: think there's value in it as long as you approach
17:47
Speaker 2: it sensitively. Do We really hope that this has been
17:49
Speaker 2: an eye opening and useful conversation for you today. Thank
17:52
Speaker 2: you so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast,
17:55
Speaker 2: please share this one with others. We know that this
17:57
Speaker 2: is the kind of podcast that is going to help
17:59
Speaker 2: family to function better and keep their kids safe. It's
18:03
Speaker 2: such an important conversation. The Happy Famili's podcast is produced
18:05
Speaker 2: by Justin Rawan from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our
18:07
Speaker 2: executive producer. If you would like more info about how
18:10
Speaker 2: to make your family happier, we would love for you
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Speaker 2: to visit us at happy families dot com dot you
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Speaker 2: Families