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Knitting as Espionage, Part One: Secrets in the Stitch · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man
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Speaker 1: of the hour, our super producer, Max Crochet Williams, Max.
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Speaker 2: The Pearler Williams. There we give the knit Master Williams.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's use all the words we learned for this,
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Speaker 1: Max the knit.
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Speaker 2: The gauge, sock Darner, the froggy Williams. That's prood Frogging's cool,
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Speaker 2: not to be confused with we just.
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Speaker 3: Said the gauge people. Okay, we'll be the gauge for
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Speaker 3: this one.
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Speaker 1: That is Noel Brown. They called me, they called me
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Speaker 1: Ben Bullen. And today, folks, we're embarking what is on
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Speaker 1: what is probably going to be a two part episode. Uh,
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Speaker 1: maybe we get into it this way. I mentioned crochet,
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Speaker 1: which is related to knitting, because I don't know if
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Speaker 1: I told you guys, my girlfriend recently got super duper
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Speaker 1: into Crocheane.
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Speaker 2: You know, there might be some knitting enthusiasts out there.
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Speaker 2: They'll be blasphemy.
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Speaker 3: Crocheting and knitting I have nothing to do with one another. Also,
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Speaker 3: that might not be true.
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Speaker 2: They might completely agree with your assessment there, Ben, but
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Speaker 2: I do know some folks that take these crafts incredible.
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Speaker 1: Seriously, so seriously, well they should. Yeah, Brandy makes well
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Speaker 1: you know, she is an artist, so she doesn't just
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Speaker 1: crochet doilies or stuff like that. She old not that
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Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with that. She also makes crochet characters
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Speaker 1: from games and from anime, from animal crossing and things
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Speaker 1: of that nature. Now, I'm not gonna tell you folks
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Speaker 1: to go buy her stuff, but we would love to
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Speaker 1: hear your stories about knitting, because very interested in it.
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Speaker 3: Give it to us, give us the linkage.
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Speaker 2: Oh no, no, tell for another day. Oh come on,
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Speaker 2: all right, I'll bug you about it later. My kiddo
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Speaker 2: has been on a bit of a knitting slash crocheting
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Speaker 2: journey doing something very similar, doing little characters and made
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Speaker 2: some stuff that they sell on their d pop and
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Speaker 2: it's it's a lot of fun. And also their little
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Speaker 2: sis is getting into it as well. Super super super
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Speaker 2: cool and very functional because, as we're going to get
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Speaker 2: into it allows you to do.
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Speaker 3: Things like repair your own socks, which I fully support.
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Speaker 1: I think you know this is my eagle scout, weird
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Speaker 1: survivalist stuff coming out. But historically in the United States
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Speaker 1: there was this gender divide on household skills, right, And
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Speaker 1: one of the things that I maintain is mission critical
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Speaker 1: is if you were dude, you need to know how
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Speaker 1: to sew. You need to know just a little bit
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Speaker 1: about that art of stringing and nodding stuff, so you
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Speaker 1: can like darn your socks, as we say, or you
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Speaker 1: can fix a duvet cover.
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Speaker 2: Or stitch up a wound. They're very related skills. Sorry,
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Speaker 2: I've been watching a lot of The Pit lately. I
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Speaker 2: got over my ick factor and boil boy do I
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Speaker 2: love that show. But if you have an aversion to slicing, dicing,
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Speaker 2: and blood, not for you, although I do have those things,
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Speaker 2: and I again kind of pushed through it because the
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Speaker 2: characters are just so incredible. Today's episode comes to us
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Speaker 2: by way of our brand new research associate Marie Yeah,
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Speaker 2: who absolutely wreckshop with this two part research brief, and
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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go ahead and knock it out of
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Speaker 2: the way. The title that they headlined it with is
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Speaker 2: when Stitch and Bitch was more like Stitch and Snitch.
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Speaker 2: I had not heard Stitch and Bitch until recently. It
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Speaker 2: is kind of I guess this idea of like a
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Speaker 2: group sitting around and sewing and knitting and stitching while
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Speaker 2: also you know, commiserating about the state of affairs.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a new way of saying the traditional
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Speaker 1: like knitting circle, which was very common, or like you know,
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Speaker 1: you have a bunch of people get together and sew
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Speaker 1: up quilts from leftover, leftover fabric. It is still, by
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Speaker 1: the way, it is still technically better to stitch up
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Speaker 1: a wound. Don't be a dummy like me.
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Speaker 3: Uh did you knit up your wound with like wool?
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Speaker 2: I had to duct tape once you know what duct tape.
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Speaker 2: That's probably not the best one. But I do hear
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Speaker 2: super glue?
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Speaker 1: Is it? Preuper glue works if you have it, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I keep it in. But anyway, let's okay, we got
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Speaker 1: to get to this. This is a phenomenal story. So
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Speaker 1: if you cast your memory back, fellow ridiculous historians, to
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Speaker 1: World Wars one and two, then you see a lot
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Speaker 1: of American society reassessing what they saw as the traditional
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Speaker 1: roles of a household. So if you're an American woman
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Speaker 1: back in the war periods, it was considered your patriotic
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Speaker 1: duty to do things like volunteer for the Red Cross,
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Speaker 1: uh to enter the workforce, which was a tremendous opportunity
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Speaker 1: that had not been provided in the past. And then
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Speaker 1: you had to keep on top of rationing and you know,
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Speaker 1: your ration cards grow a victory garden and knitting because
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Speaker 1: you couldn't just go to Woolworst and buy stuff who
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Speaker 1: could afford it at the time.
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Speaker 2: Also turns out wool Worst does not just sell woolen
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Speaker 2: woolen goods. This is much more of a catch all
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Speaker 2: kind of store. I'm joking that wasn't even funny, but
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Speaker 2: it's true. Ben Rosie the Riveter was a huge campaign
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Speaker 2: aimed at getting you know, women to enter the workforce.
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Speaker 2: I will say, I think this is obvious everybody. It
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Speaker 2: is kind of one of those things where it was
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Speaker 2: sort of by necessity. It wasn't like this egalitarian moment
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Speaker 2: of like you know, wilingness, where all of a sudden
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Speaker 2: men were like, you know what, women should be able
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Speaker 2: to occupy the same jobs as us. No, all the
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Speaker 2: men were just off at war and those jobs needed filling.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So the powers that be said, we have
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Speaker 1: to keep our factories open, correct to fight the Nazis
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Speaker 1: and so on. But that did fundamentally change us society.
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Speaker 1: We also know this is a story that might be
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Speaker 1: familiar to some of us. Well, no, there's this long
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Speaker 1: tradition of making do with what you have, repairing things
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Speaker 1: rather than replacing things. So for quite a long time,
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Speaker 1: millions of women, especially in the United States and the
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Speaker 1: world overall. We're knitting, but they weren't knitting recreationally. It
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Speaker 1: was not a S and B hangout necessarily, it was
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Speaker 1: an economic necessity to keep your families clothing in good repair.
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Speaker 1: It reminds me of the Great Depression, horrible name, the
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Speaker 1: period of time when yeah, flower MANU, I can't let
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Speaker 1: it go. Flower manufacturers realized that less well to do
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Speaker 1: families were taking sacks of flower and making these amazing
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Speaker 1: dresses for their kids from them, and so they started
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Speaker 1: providing more aesthetic, pleasing patterns. We know that during war,
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Speaker 1: millions of women in the United States and abroad were
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Speaker 1: also knitting stuff for the troops. Like you would volunteer
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Speaker 1: for the Red Cross, as we said, but you would
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Speaker 1: also maybe volunteer to make warm clothing and socks and
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Speaker 1: scarves and gloves for soldiers. You would even knit bandages.
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Speaker 2: I want to say, similar with Gingham, right, the Gingham craze,
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Speaker 2: where that was originally used as more of a household fabric,
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Speaker 2: you know, for tablecloths and curtains and things like that,
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Speaker 2: but then it became one of those we got a
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Speaker 2: lot of the stuff around, let's make it into dresses,
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Speaker 2: and then kind of became a little bit chic in
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Speaker 2: its own in its own right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, I like that. I like that citation there too. Man,
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Speaker 1: We okay, we know this. It became for a time
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Speaker 1: during during the war periods, it became pretty common to
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Speaker 1: see women knitting at all times constantly. Like people blame
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Speaker 1: Pokemon Go. When that first came out, you would see
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Speaker 1: folks maybe on a lunch break from their factory job
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Speaker 1: and they'd be knitting. Or you might see somebody knitting
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Speaker 1: while they're literally walking to or from a destination. But
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Speaker 1: as it turns out, and we can't thank our research
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Speaker 1: associate Maria enough for this, some of those people knitting
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Speaker 1: during the war years weren't just doing altruistic things to
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Speaker 1: make sure people had scarves or to make sure people
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Speaker 1: didn't have to buy a new set of socks. They
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Speaker 1: were knitting as a form of espionage.
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Speaker 2: Whoa right, true man, I did know about this, but
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Speaker 2: I still have to drop the woe because it's wild.
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Speaker 2: There's so much stuff in these episodes that absolutely took
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Speaker 2: me by surprise. We're going to get into the idea
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Speaker 2: of binary code and secret messages and all of this
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Speaker 2: kind of stuff, not to mention spying for the enemy.
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Speaker 2: So one thing that's I think important when it comes
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Speaker 2: to spying is having a front that on its surface
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Speaker 2: can be seen as unthreatening and innocuous and something that
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Speaker 2: would typically be overlooked.
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Speaker 3: And a ladies knitting group is one.
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Speaker 1: Of those things because of misogyny exactly, but also it
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Speaker 1: reminds me of the monopoly board games that were used
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Speaker 1: to help people escape pow camps. Yeah, you nailed it there.
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Speaker 1: Some spies use their knowledge of knitting and the fact
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Speaker 1: that knitting was seen as so ubiquitous and innocuous that
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Speaker 1: they were able to sneak hidden messages encoded in their artwork.
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Speaker 1: Sometimes this was a form of what we call steganography,
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Speaker 1: which is weaving a message physically into an ordinary object
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Speaker 1: like a hair tie or.
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Speaker 2: A scarf, or that perhaps stitched into the lining of
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Speaker 2: a cod Things like that. Yeah, Yeah, that's something we've
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Speaker 2: talked about.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 1: And sometimes also it would be a great cover because
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Speaker 1: you could be a spy carrying a message, but to
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Speaker 1: enemy forces, you're just an average person carrying a knitting
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Speaker 1: bag with yarn and needles inside. And as Maria says,
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Speaker 1: heavens no nothing else at all.
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Speaker 2: Honestly here, So let's talk about how wartime spies used
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Speaker 2: knitting to get the job done. This cover that we're
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Speaker 2: talking about, it couldn't have happened if not for the
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Speaker 2: absolute boom in popularity of at home knitting kits or
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Speaker 2: what have you. Women answered the call to knit your bit,
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Speaker 2: which was a slogan that originated as a World War
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Speaker 2: One era American Red Cross campaign doing things like you
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Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, repairing the linings of helmets, knitting fingerless gloves
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Speaker 2: for the troops, repairing things stuff like that.
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Speaker 3: Knit your bit.
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Speaker 2: So take this thing you already know how to do,
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Speaker 2: and use it in more time to further you know,
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Speaker 2: the mission of the troops.
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Speaker 1: By the way, I love the wartime slang, the wartime
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Speaker 1: initiatives that were all sort of propagandistic, even you know,
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Speaker 1: even for the good guys there was stuff like keep mum,
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Speaker 1: she's not so dumb, that said, don't talk to don't
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Speaker 1: talk loosely because you underestimate women, they might be spies
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Speaker 1: or careless talk costs lives.
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Speaker 3: Loose lips sink chips.
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Speaker 1: Loose slips sink ships. That's a banger, Keep calm and
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Speaker 1: carry on. Of course that was the British.
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Speaker 2: That was just the overarching attitude of the Brits right
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Speaker 2: right life philosophy.
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Speaker 1: Even last one dig for victory, which is when you
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Speaker 1: were supposed to cultivate a garden.
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Speaker 2: So the victory, Yeah, the aforementioned victory gardens. So we're
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Speaker 2: seeing a golden age of knitting in the nineteen forties
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Speaker 2: and a lot of that had to do with this
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Speaker 2: whole another slogan, make do and mend and of course
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Speaker 2: the previously mentioned knit your bit mentality that swept the country.
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Speaker 2: So on November twenty fourth of nineteen forty one, people
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Speaker 2: were seeing the new issue of Life magazine coming out,
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Speaker 2: displaying a full size photo of a woman knitting, with
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Speaker 2: one short headline how to knit. Included you would find
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Speaker 2: the basic instructions for knitting, and it came with a pattern,
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Speaker 2: not for some sort of doily or some sort of
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Speaker 2: you know dress for a military vest.
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Speaker 1: Hmm, yeah, right, it's not it's not what you would
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Speaker 1: expect from previous iterations or patterns, but it also is
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Speaker 1: completely in line with the skill set of knitting. You
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Speaker 1: also saw the big to dos or prominent people of
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Speaker 1: the day endorsing knitting. Eleanor Roosevelt, who was kind of
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Speaker 1: the Kardashian of the age, right the first Lady of
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Speaker 1: the United States at the time. Her PR team often
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Speaker 1: made sure to photograph her knitting, and she had a
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Speaker 1: knitting tea party that kicked off the World War Two
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Speaker 1: knitting effort.
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Speaker 2: Knit for Defense over there at the super humble Waldorf
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Speaker 2: Astoria in New York City. That happened in September of
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Speaker 2: nineteen forty one. Eleanor Roosevelt not to be confused with
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Speaker 2: Eleanor Rigby, who was darning her socks in the night.
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Speaker 3: When there's nobody there.
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Speaker 2: This Eleanor became known as the first knitter of the land,
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Speaker 2: and New York Times reported on January twenty second, nineteen
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Speaker 2: forty two, a helmet for a flying cadet made by
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Speaker 2: some devoted woman in a small town far from the
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Speaker 2: war is sure to arouse interest in the navy or
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Speaker 2: air force among the friends of the women doing the knitting,
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Speaker 2: and she herself feels that she is an active part
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Speaker 2: in the vast conflict. She is not useless, although she
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Speaker 2: can do nothing else to help win the war. No,
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Speaker 2: that's not good copying like that. It was it was
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Speaker 2: doing so, it was going so, well.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll find the journalist so and then we see
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Speaker 1: that again, this is ubiquitous. The eleanor Rigby reference is
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Speaker 1: great because it shows us how fundamental knitting and darning became, right,
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Speaker 1: how abiquitous in this time in society. Later, it's June eighteenth,
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Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, so just you know, like three years later,
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Speaker 1: General Dwight Eisenhower calls upon the American Cross and Volunteer
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Speaker 1: knitting efforts, referring to them as the friendly hand of
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Speaker 1: this nation, reaching across the sea to sustain it's fighting men,
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Speaker 1: fighting men. Right, But that's okay, So this is a
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Speaker 1: good idea. It's a group effort. Everybody get together to
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Speaker 1: fight the baddies. This also means that knitting in wartime
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Speaker 1: becomes not a hobby, it becomes a patriotic duty, and
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Speaker 1: that makes it ubiquitous. That makes it so commonplace that
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Speaker 1: if you are a secret agent, you can blend right
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Speaker 1: in as you do your dirty deeds of trade craft.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, done dirt cheap indeed, And before anyone, you know,
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Speaker 2: gets on our case about you know, looking at the
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Speaker 2: pass through a modern lens. Uh And so yeah, I
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Speaker 2: think it's a thing that you do. It's just a
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Speaker 2: thing that you do. I don't know that we have
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Speaker 2: to give a pass instantly. Just you know, some of
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Speaker 2: this stuff is a little problematic, but at the same time.
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Speaker 3: It's it was. It was progressive for the time for sure.
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Speaker 1: Sure it was regressive, progressive for the time, let's keep it.
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Speaker 1: But it was also very again condescending. You know, like,
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Speaker 1: look at these ladies working in a factory just like
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Speaker 1: a dude, and oh uh oh, I'm the high eluding
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Speaker 1: New York Times. Women, you can't do anything, but you're
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Speaker 1: not useless because you can knit. I would be so
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Speaker 1: irritated by the media of the day, you know. But
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Speaker 1: like you were saying, no, we've got to we've got
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Speaker 1: to note some things that come up in our previous
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Speaker 1: explorations on the science and art of trade craft, which
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Speaker 1: is house spy spy in our sister show stuff they
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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. There's a great shout out
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Speaker 1: here that Maria gives us.
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Speaker 2: I love this one. It's such a good scene center.
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Speaker 2: I think people might be familiar with a Tale of
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Speaker 2: Two Cities, right, It was the best of times in
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Speaker 2: the worst of times, and a really important character in
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Speaker 2: that book was Defarge, a very powerful woman, but yes hidden,
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Speaker 2: hiding in plain sight and exercising her power in the shadows,
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Speaker 2: which is kind of by design.
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Speaker 1: Right, So let's set the stage. Madame Defarge Tale of
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Speaker 1: Two Cities. She sits outside of her wine shop in Paris,
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Speaker 1: and she knits a scarf. But for those who know
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Speaker 1: what to look for, there are messages in that scarf.
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Speaker 1: She is secretly stitching hidden names, creating, again with steganography,
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Speaker 1: not stenography, steganography a register of aristocrats and enemies that
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Speaker 1: are going to later be executed by the guillotine during
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Speaker 1: the French Revolution. And even though this is an excellent
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Speaker 1: fictional character, the use of coded knitting is real, and
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Speaker 1: we know that actual genuine spies in the real world,
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Speaker 1: people like Elizabeth Betley and Phyllis Lettour, did indeed take
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Speaker 1: a page from Madame Defarge and conceal messages in their
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Speaker 1: knitting projects.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's part of the resistance. So let's just talk.
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Speaker 2: A little bit about the the procedural aspects of knitting
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Speaker 2: and involves interconnecting sliding loops of yarn used to create
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Speaker 2: stitches that form a textile aka piece of fabric made
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Speaker 2: from interwoven pieces of yarn or thread or what have you.
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Speaker 2: There are two very important fundamental kinds of stitches that
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Speaker 2: go into this craft.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, You've got the knit stitches k and it stitches,
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Speaker 1: and they resemble the letter V in that fabric. And
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Speaker 1: then you've got the pearl stitches puurl that are a
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Speaker 1: reverse knit stitch. Those are the things that look like
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Speaker 1: bumps in the fabric. So you got your v's in
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Speaker 1: your bumps one hundred percent. And it turns out that
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Speaker 1: you can use those v's and bumps as ways of
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Speaker 1: incorporating hidden messages through the use of what I mentioned earlier,
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Speaker 1: something called binary code. Think about Morse code. Very simple
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Speaker 1: building blocks.
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Speaker 2: Of these types of code, whether it be ones and
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Speaker 2: z zos or dots and dashes, right.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 1: And this can sound more complex than maybe it actually was.
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Speaker 1: In practice. You could use, to your point in lil
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Speaker 1: stitches as kind of a data marker. So you purl
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Speaker 1: a stitch right, you make a bump, and that represents
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Speaker 1: the arrival of a certain person. But you drop a stitch,
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Speaker 1: creating a hole in your fabric, and that may represent
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Speaker 1: the person leaving. So you really it depends on what
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Speaker 1: kind of signals you want to send and what the
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Speaker 1: complexity or sophistication of those signals would be. So for example,
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Speaker 1: in this in this hypothetical scenario, the person who is
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Speaker 1: trying to recover this information already knows, you know, like
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Speaker 1: Lord Batten von ham On Sandwich is the person they're
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Speaker 1: looking for to arrive or depart. So now if you
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Speaker 1: are our knitting spy, you don't have to figure out
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Speaker 1: a way to use bumps and v's to spell out
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Speaker 1: the name Lord Matton Mountain ham On Sandwich. You just
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Speaker 1: have to say the person we're looking for has arrived,
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Speaker 1: the person we're looking for is gone.
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Speaker 2: It's brilliant for sure, and I mean and this type
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Speaker 2: of code is still very much in use today. Ones
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Speaker 2: and zeros used to encode things like images in digital
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Speaker 2: form JPEGs, our audio in digital form MP three's. If
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Speaker 2: you stripped it down to their fundamental layers, you're going
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Speaker 2: to see series of binary code used to encode things
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Speaker 2: from the analog world into digital form. So almost all
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Speaker 2: modern digital computer data interactions depend on binary code. So
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Speaker 2: binary is very much the same as knitting. These combinations
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Speaker 2: of ones and zeros or v's and bumps or dots
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Speaker 2: and dashes. In hand knitting, knit one pearl one represented
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Speaker 2: as K one P one is a fundamental technique for
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Speaker 2: the craft, and it is also inherently a binary system
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Speaker 2: in machine based knitting that's used you know, to mass
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Speaker 2: mass produce things. Patterns are in fact defined by ones
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Speaker 2: and zeros or yes no logic, which are very much
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Speaker 2: the same exact building blocks that would go into the
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Speaker 2: fundamentals of computing.
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Speaker 1: And research Associate Maria, please don't We're not the brightest
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Speaker 1: crayons in the box, but don't think your your joke escaped.
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Speaker 1: I noticed there you have this titled as K one
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Speaker 1: P three, which is a common knitting instruction, So our
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Speaker 1: research associated is sending us a code and a puzzle
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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah yeah, this, I mean I love this stuff. Man.
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Speaker 1: This lends itself naturally to hiding messages In things like
23:03
Speaker 1: Morse code, the system of dots and dashes, you can
23:07
Speaker 1: use knit and pearl stitch combinations to spell out a
23:13
Speaker 1: hidden message within something as simple as a hairtie. Your
23:17
Speaker 1: pearl stitch can be a dot, and then three consecutive
23:21
Speaker 1: pearl stitches could represent a dash. So if you needed
23:26
Speaker 1: to actually spell out the name of Lord montbatten ham
23:30
Speaker 1: On von ham On Sandwich, then you could do it
23:34
Speaker 1: by employing Morse code via fabric. There were also things
23:38
Speaker 1: we could call cousins of this tactic knoed yarn or
23:42
Speaker 1: specific yarn color changes knitted into a fabric. So then
23:49
Speaker 1: instead of having to have a bunch of pearls and
23:51
Speaker 1: v's or bumps and v's, you could just change a
23:56
Speaker 1: specific part of the fabric color or the thread or
24:00
Speaker 1: the yard. That could also very efficiently provide the signals
24:05
Speaker 1: you needed.
24:12
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about knotted threads in
24:14
Speaker 2: this instance, spies with hide messages by tying little knots
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Speaker 2: into strands of yarn, with each knot placement representing a
24:23
Speaker 2: unique code. So the knotted thread could be an espionage
24:27
Speaker 2: tool in its own right, but it could also be
24:29
Speaker 2: cast onto knitting needles right and turned into a knitting
24:35
Speaker 2: project carried out by a secret agent in a knitting bag.
24:39
Speaker 3: So for the knotted.
24:41
Speaker 2: Message to be read, the receiver would also have to
24:45
Speaker 2: first know how to unravel the scar which is almost
24:47
Speaker 2: like what do they call that, like a sifer, not
24:49
Speaker 2: a cipher, But there's like the key that you need in.
24:53
Speaker 1: Order to trek a one time pad.
24:54
Speaker 3: So I don't know something like that.
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Speaker 2: I guess I'm just thinking about the you know, when
24:58
Speaker 2: we're talking about things like the famous Enigma computer system
25:03
Speaker 2: that was I believe Alan Turning had something to do
25:06
Speaker 2: with there. You know, there is like a sort of
25:09
Speaker 2: there's a name, God damn it, what is the name
25:11
Speaker 2: where you in order to like have it's like a specific.
25:15
Speaker 1: It's a one time pad, right, the way number stations
25:18
Speaker 1: work today, you have to have the cryptographic key.
25:21
Speaker 2: Cryptographic key, I think is the term that I was
25:24
Speaker 2: poorly digging for, but it's something along those lines. You
25:27
Speaker 2: kind of have to in order to even interpret the
25:29
Speaker 2: thing kind of have to have a key. And that
25:31
Speaker 2: is sort of what this is. The ability to unravel
25:33
Speaker 2: that scarf and to know what you're looking for and.
25:35
Speaker 4: To jump in real quick Noel as your reference. Turing,
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Speaker 4: the one of the greatest wartime achievements ever done is
25:42
Speaker 4: he cracked the Enigma exactly considered impossible to do, which
25:47
Speaker 4: and I think it was one of these things too,
25:49
Speaker 4: where they cracked it and then they were able to
25:51
Speaker 4: keep it under wraps that they cracked it right.
25:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, by hiding, by feeding, like what's the word phony
25:58
Speaker 2: intel to the end.
26:00
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, which is why people think carrots are
26:03
Speaker 1: still good for your eyesight. It's not untrue, but it
26:06
Speaker 1: was a way to cover up the early use of radar.
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Speaker 4: Was that actually part of the Enigma code? Or is
26:13
Speaker 4: those just parallel the same time.
26:14
Speaker 3: It was parallel.
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Speaker 1: I'm just talking about the the great game of deception there.
26:19
Speaker 1: But we do have to shout out whenever we talk
26:22
Speaker 1: about the legendary Alan Turing. Two things you need to
26:24
Speaker 1: know about him is that this guy was so brilliant.
26:28
Speaker 1: We don't know whether anybody else could have figured out Enigma.
26:33
Speaker 1: He had those moments of revelation, you know, they're almost prophetic.
26:38
Speaker 1: And then secondly, most importantly, I would say he did
26:42
Speaker 1: later get betrayed by his own country due to his
26:45
Speaker 1: sexual orientation.
26:46
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, we've done an episode on this very topic.
26:50
Speaker 2: We had to we know, certainly certainly did.
26:53
Speaker 4: We did an episode about We did a two part
26:55
Speaker 4: series about scientists who are persecuted for being despite being
27:00
Speaker 4: completely correct and turning. Got an episode there you go.
27:02
Speaker 1: Oh that's right. Yeah, yeah, and then we also.
27:05
Speaker 4: Get pardoned posthumously by Queen Elizabeth.
27:07
Speaker 3: Oh great.
27:09
Speaker 4: Unfortunately Queen Elizabeth the second was also the Queen when.
27:13
Speaker 1: When it all went down. Yeah, and okay, so we've
27:17
Speaker 1: got we're to get to here. This is weirdly enough,
27:21
Speaker 1: We're going to revisit this idea of nodded threads in
27:24
Speaker 1: our second part of this series, and it's going to
27:28
Speaker 1: take us away from World War two to the ancient past.
27:32
Speaker 1: But for now, consider that a teaser. There was this
27:38
Speaker 1: beautiful appeal to a lot of people in society of
27:44
Speaker 1: espionage through knitting, because you're kind of doing something very
27:49
Speaker 1: secret in very open places that you've got the ability
27:53
Speaker 1: to stick it to the man. Some knitters are knitting
27:56
Speaker 1: in public. Some are going to specific almost like a
28:01
Speaker 1: dead drop, you know, like walk by the park, see
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Speaker 1: the lady knitting a scarf. If the scarf has a
28:09
Speaker 1: yellow stripe, get out if the scarf has a blue stripe,
28:13
Speaker 1: then proceed to the next location and you can meet
28:16
Speaker 1: you know. Blah blah blah blah blah.
28:18
Speaker 2: For sure, and a story that is often passed around,
28:22
Speaker 2: you know, and as we know a lot of these stories,
28:24
Speaker 2: there's some apocrypha involved. This one is told mainly the
28:30
Speaker 2: same way, and it goes like this. During World War Two,
28:33
Speaker 2: the Belgian resistance harnessed the power of knitting. Here is
28:39
Speaker 2: the variance though some versions say one woman, some say
28:44
Speaker 2: elderly woman, some say women.
28:47
Speaker 1: Okay, So so it differs in that it may be
28:52
Speaker 1: a solo or group activity, and if it's solo, the
28:56
Speaker 1: descriptions of the woman in question differ a little.
28:59
Speaker 3: Bit for sure.
29:00
Speaker 2: So knitters would do a little train watching, a little
29:04
Speaker 2: train spotting, standing by watching the trains pass and encoding
29:08
Speaker 2: the movement of German troops and artillery into the fabric.
29:14
Speaker 2: So dropping a stitch to your previous point been indicated
29:17
Speaker 2: one type of train, perling a stitch indicated a different
29:21
Speaker 2: type of train and their fabric, which was embedded with
29:24
Speaker 2: this logistical information about the enemy would then be passed
29:27
Speaker 2: along to intelligence officers who were given the tools they
29:32
Speaker 2: needed to decode these messages.
29:34
Speaker 1: Gentlemen, I am but a humble purveyor of scarves. I
29:39
Speaker 1: travel often so that I'm laughing because I get picture
29:43
Speaker 1: that being what are those crazy word to the wise
29:47
Speaker 1: things that military folks told themselves in the day. They
29:50
Speaker 1: were like, look, we need to round up anybody who's
29:54
Speaker 1: selling scarves.
29:55
Speaker 3: We need to do it now. Well, that's the problem,
29:57
Speaker 3: right or not?
29:58
Speaker 1: Not?
29:58
Speaker 2: The problem with the potential problem. This stuff only works
30:02
Speaker 2: for as long as the enemy is not wise to
30:05
Speaker 2: not necessarily the code, but just the medium. And once
30:08
Speaker 2: that gets, you know, out of the handbag, then all
30:12
Speaker 2: bets are off.
30:12
Speaker 1: I'm just imagining you, guys. I'm imagining this globe trotting
30:19
Speaker 1: scarf salesperson who is going in and out of different
30:23
Speaker 1: countries during wartime and never gets caught. There could be
30:28
Speaker 1: one today that we don't know about. However, we know
30:31
Speaker 1: that there are specific cases of legendary knitting spies. They
30:36
Speaker 1: didn't necessarily just convey hidden messages in fabric. They could
30:41
Speaker 1: also use their knitting tools to hide physical notes or documents.
30:47
Speaker 1: And you know what, now that I think about it
30:49
Speaker 1: as a last resort, just like hatpins, your knitting needles
30:54
Speaker 1: could be used as weapons.
30:56
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and we're going to get into some specific
30:59
Speaker 2: case of individuals who were experts at deploying this type
31:05
Speaker 2: of tradecraft in the second part of this two part.
31:11
Speaker 1: Series, so please tune in, folks, We're going to dive into,
31:16
Speaker 1: as Noel said, some specific cases of legendary knitting spies
31:22
Speaker 1: joined us later this week. In the meantime, big thanks
31:25
Speaker 1: to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Big thanks to
31:29
Speaker 1: our research associate Maria who else who else.
31:33
Speaker 2: Who is well, Christian Rossiotis and native Jeff Code here
31:35
Speaker 2: in spirit of course Alex Williams to composed this Bang and.
31:39
Speaker 1: Bob, also doctor Rachel Big Spinach, Lance of course, a j.
31:45
Speaker 1: Bahamas Jacobs, and a civil but chilly acknowledgement of Jonathan
31:54
Speaker 1: Stricklands aka the Quist.
31:55
Speaker 2: Find how do you Do? Indeed a Kurt nod adopting
32:01
Speaker 2: of the of the Camps. We'll see you next time, folks.
32:12
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
32:16
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.