Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #108 Does the Church Matter?

Transcript

#108 Does the Church Matter? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

0:17
SPEAKER_01: The Deep Grace Diving Podcast, episode number 107.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Wow, John, can you believe that?
0:25
SPEAKER_01: 107.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm hoping that sometime between now and 200,
0:30
SPEAKER_01: we actually say something worth listening to,
0:32
SPEAKER_01: but we appreciate all of you who are listening in the hope
0:35
SPEAKER_01: that maybe one day there'll be some sort of nugget that comes out of all of us.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Just the sheer amount of content,
0:41
SPEAKER_00: you'd think we'd stumble on something that would be memorable, right?
0:44
SPEAKER_01: Hasn't happened yet.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: That's why we keep doing them.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: I think once we stumble on them and we say something really smart, then we're done.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: We've been doing this series,
0:53
SPEAKER_01: Christianity 101, looking at various aspects of the Christian faith.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about, can we trust the Bible?
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Can we trust the Gospels?
1:02
SPEAKER_01: We've looked at who is Jesus?
1:04
SPEAKER_01: And today we're going to turn to the church.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: There's sort of a love-hate relationship, I think, for a lot of people with the church.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright And there are some people who Tim Wright All of their memories of
1:20
SPEAKER_01: the church are really fond Tim Wright There are some people
1:23
SPEAKER_01: who are no longer even followers of Jesus because their church was
1:27
SPEAKER_01: so abusive Tim Wright And everything in between Tim Wright And so that to talk about
1:33
SPEAKER_01: the church is really tricky Tim Wright Because it is on the one hand Tim Wright
1:39
SPEAKER_01: A Tim Wright Organization and organism
1:43
SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about the church,
1:44
SPEAKER_01: we're talking big C,
1:46
SPEAKER_01: not just small congregations,
1:47
SPEAKER_01: but the big C.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: It has been an agent for positive change,
1:54
SPEAKER_01: probably more than any other entity in the history of the world in terms
2:00
SPEAKER_01: of bringing supplies to people when they're hurting in terms of shaping issues
2:07
SPEAKER_01: of justice and compassion and mercy.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: On the other hand,
2:11
SPEAKER_01: it has been one of the most destructive agencies,
2:13
SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
2:14
SPEAKER_01: in the world, covering up abuse and using power for personal gain and so on.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: So when you wade into the church, it becomes rather challenging.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, it's not just the church, it is my church, my congregation.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot to talk about and to unwrap around that.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: John, what do you really mean?
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, it took me a while to figure out what people meant by big C, little c church.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: So I just want to make sure I understand what that means when you say that.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: When you say big C, you're talking about the building and the bureaucracy and the apparatus that
3:02
SPEAKER_00: around a church or a collection of churches or the church in the world today
3:10
SPEAKER_00: and what they can do, I think.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: No, I want to clarify that.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you asked.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: When I'm talking about the Big C Church,
3:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about using the biblical metaphor of the body of Christ so that
3:24
SPEAKER_01: the Big C Church is the Christian movement.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: And the big C church the Christian movement takes on forms
3:34
SPEAKER_01: and structures like Catholicism and all of its all of its rituals and its policies
3:42
SPEAKER_01: and procedures like Lutheranism with its rituals and policies
3:46
SPEAKER_01: and procedures Methodists assemblies of God and so they become so you've got
3:51
SPEAKER_01: the big C church which is the Christian movement made up of a lot
3:56
SPEAKER_01: of different theologies a lot of different kinds of people
3:59
SPEAKER_01: But all of us who call ourselves Christians are part of the big C church.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Then all of those divisions and those theologies get parsed out into denominations.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: And then those denominations have congregations.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: The local church, so to speak.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: So if we wanted to speak in those three broad spheres,
4:24
SPEAKER_01: When I say that the Christian church,
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Big C Church,
4:27
SPEAKER_01: has been an agency or an organism that has had a profound impact on history,
4:32
SPEAKER_01: that's what I'm talking about.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: If you want to talk, and that could be true of denominations.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: You can look at probably all the denominations in some way, shape, or form.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: You know,
4:42
SPEAKER_01: right now you know that a lot of denominations
4:45
SPEAKER_01: and even local congregations are responding to the earthquake that just happened.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: And Christian people are piling in a lot of money
4:53
SPEAKER_01: through their denominational representatives and making a big difference.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: And us Christians, we're Little C Church people, right?
5:04
SPEAKER_00: When we say Little C Church, isn't just those of us who walk, sit in the pews on Sundays?
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess you could say that we are a part of the body of Christ,
5:15
SPEAKER_01: and so we would be Little C Church.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: I think I like the language better of being a part of the body.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: I might be a hand,
5:28
SPEAKER_01: I might be an arm,
5:29
SPEAKER_01: I might be the eyeball, but I'm part of this body, this big universal.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Even though I go to a Lutheran congregation,
5:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm still a part of a global movement of Christian people.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm part of the Christian movement that has billions of people that have been a part
5:46
SPEAKER_01: of it over the course of 2000 years.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: So the big C church really for me this is good to define it this way
5:54
SPEAKER_01: on this podcast would be the Christian movement made up of all those who identify
6:00
SPEAKER_01: as followers of Jesus whatever their denominational affiliation and
6:05
SPEAKER_01: then you've got your denominations and then you've got your local congregation
6:11
SPEAKER_01: so sort of those let's put it in those three phases and that may be
6:15
SPEAKER_01: an oversimplification but I think that will probably help so that's a good question
6:20
SPEAKER_00: That could be the one thing of insight that we were talking about,
6:22
SPEAKER_00: but you should still listen because there's more to say.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: But usually when we think of the church,
6:31
SPEAKER_01: we think either of our own local congregation or we think of the church reflected by
6:39
SPEAKER_01: a denomination and sometimes what they did wrong.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: We had the the abuse scandal in the Catholic Church years ago.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people just say see the church covers up abuse.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, apart a denomination covered up the abuse.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: But the Christian movement is far bigger than that.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: And while there are and that we talked about this last week with getting stuck
7:15
SPEAKER_01: in power, that's what happens with denominations and power.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: You lose sight of the fact that the mission of Jesus is to stand for the abused,
7:25
SPEAKER_01: not to stand for the abuser.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: But most of us in our interaction with what we think about the church will have come
7:37
SPEAKER_01: from a personal experience with our church that we worship at, or
7:47
SPEAKER_01: Some sort of something that came out positively or negatively about what
7:52
SPEAKER_01: a denomination did or what a denomination stands for.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: So, for example,
7:55
SPEAKER_01: there are people who may be attracted to,
7:58
SPEAKER_01: say, the evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: That's who I am.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Because we ordain women.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Because we are rooted in a focus on justice and compassion and mercy.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: We're an inclusive church.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: We're all are welcome to come.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Right?
8:18
SPEAKER_01: So some people will look and Christianity then will be defined by that.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: Others may define Christianity as we don't ordain women because the men are superior
8:28
SPEAKER_01: to women, as is happening with the Southern Baptist Convention right now.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: And there will be some who say, yeah, I believe in that.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: And there are others who are saying we're getting out of this denomination
8:38
SPEAKER_01: and we want nothing to be Christianity anymore if that's what they stand for.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: So you've got
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Part of the challenge is when you talk about the church
8:47
SPEAKER_01: and Christianity you've got Jesus who we talked about the last two weeks
8:50
SPEAKER_01: and his message and then you've got Christians trying to live out that message but
8:57
SPEAKER_01: then you've got denominations that form the policies and procedures and structures
9:03
SPEAKER_01: that sort of codify and put power around the Jesus message and
9:10
SPEAKER_01: and sometimes we end up getting lost right um
9:15
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we end up doing really good stuff.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: And that's why we sort of have this discomfort with the Christian church, so many people.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Now, those who love their congregation, they'll have no idea what I'm talking about.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of people who say, well, do we even need to go to church?
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Can't I just worship God out in nature?
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Church is boring anyway.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: And look at the way they abuse people.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Look at how they use their money.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: So-and-so was a pastor and he just raised $5 million to buy a private jet.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: That's Christianity, it had nothing to do with it.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, people kicking the tires on Christianity oftentimes say,
9:55
SPEAKER_00: you guys can't even figure it out.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Like yes on on women being pastors no on women being pastors yes
10:07
SPEAKER_00: on all inclusive no these groups can't come to church yes on
10:11
SPEAKER_00: so what am I doing there and I think oftentimes Tim don't we respond
10:14
SPEAKER_00: and say hey look that the church is struggling in this area but rather than focusing
10:19
SPEAKER_00: on the church why don't we focus on Jesus and is that a fair response to this sort
10:26
SPEAKER_01: of complexity well I'll answer that a couple ways first of all
10:31
SPEAKER_01: of course being a pastor my kids were raised as pastors kids
10:36
SPEAKER_01: and they people didn't always treat them kindly sure sure so yeah somebody must be
10:48
SPEAKER_01: at my door so so I would always say to them don't judge Christian and basis
10:57
SPEAKER_01: of Christian people treat you or on the church
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Judged on the basis of who Jesus claimed to be and his mission and ministry.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: So I do think that that's fair.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: But I also think it's fair to look at the church and when
11:12
SPEAKER_01: the church is not being Jesus to be critical of and to call it out.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: That's what the prophets of the Old Testament did when the people
11:21
SPEAKER_01: of Israel weren't living out what God wanted them to.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: God would send prophets and say, that's not who I am.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Get your act together.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright And of course, especially in the world we live in today, bad news sells.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Scandal sells.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: You're not going to hear stories about the local congregation
11:47
SPEAKER_01: that just gave away $20,000 to help the people who are suffering from
11:52
SPEAKER_01: the earthquake.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: No, what you're going to hear is, well, that pastor of that church
12:00
SPEAKER_01: got caught in this scandal, because that's what sells.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: And so what we've missed,
12:06
SPEAKER_01: what we tend to miss,
12:08
SPEAKER_01: and that's why I started with that,
12:09
SPEAKER_01: is that there's been no other organism or agency or movement in the last 2000 years
12:15
SPEAKER_01: that have positively impacted the church the way Christianity has.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: And there's probably no other agency or organism on the planet that has hurt
12:25
SPEAKER_01: the world as badly as the Christian church has in the last 2000 years.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright And it would be easy to say,
12:32
SPEAKER_01: well, it's because we're made up of sinners, but that's not good enough.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: That's not good enough.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: We as Christians need to step back.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: And when we are complicit, we need to call it out and we need to repent of that.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: And one example is the way that the Christian church in Germany embraced Nazism.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's just a stain on the Christian church that we'll probably never get off.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- Right.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- And,
13:03
SPEAKER_01: and there are stories that we could tell even from today here in the United States
13:06
SPEAKER_01: of America.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- So, so it's a complicated discussion when we talk about does the church matter.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- So for all of that.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- For all of that.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- The question still is does the church matter and that's what we want
13:20
SPEAKER_01: to kind of focus on today.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: So I want to get back to my original question to you john.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- What are some of your early memories because you grew up in the church right.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: I did.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: And this is pretty right on, actually.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: My dad never told me this story.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: My dad died of cancer a few years ago.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: He never told me this story,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: but something happened to him in a church that turned him completely off of church.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: And he didn't have a problem.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: He in no way discouraged me from going to church, but I went to church with my mom
13:56
SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright and we went to a Methodist church in the in the city that I grew up in
14:02
SPEAKER_00: and dad never went.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Dad went to church twice.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: He went when we got married and he went one time at Community Church of Joy
14:11
SPEAKER_00: because my wife asked him to go and he loved Lisa.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: He loves my wife so much.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: So those were the two times and
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And as it turns out,
14:22
SPEAKER_00: just before he died,
14:23
SPEAKER_00: he asked if I thought it would be okay if he had communion, which was nice.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, different topic for a different podcast.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: So my memories of going to church were just sort of,
14:38
SPEAKER_00: it was a good experience, but it wasn't particularly impactful.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it was mostly about friends that were also in church.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I grew up kind of in a ministry family.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: My grandpa was a Lutheran pastor, not in a church.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: He was a traveling speaker.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: But my mom was the church organist.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: And the organ sat in the front of the church.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: So every Sunday, that's where we sat.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: And being a Lutheran church, not a real big one, but being a Lutheran church, we used a hymnal.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: And we had a certain liturgy that we would read and sing every single week,
15:16
SPEAKER_01: pretty much the same with maybe a couple different hymns.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: And I actually, for the most part, really enjoyed church.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: And I had sort of a turning moment when I said to my mom one day, this stuff is really boring.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And it's the same thing every week.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: And she said, well, you know, when you're singing that liturgy, you're singing Bible verses.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Because the liturgy is basically scripture put to music.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: And all of that's going into your soul.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: It's going into your head.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And it shapes you.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: And to this day, I can still remember some of the liturgy from when I was a kid.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: And so that sort of shifted the way that I looked at worship.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: Of course, once I became a pastor, we didn't use liturgy.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: We went right to contemporary forms of worship just because that's what I was teaching people.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright But it's not the form that matters.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: But I love church.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: When I was in junior high,
16:18
SPEAKER_01: we were at a church where we had a new music director come in
16:22
SPEAKER_01: and she put together this music group and we did musicals
16:26
SPEAKER_01: and we did really cool stuff.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: So I have,
16:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:31
SPEAKER_01: for the most part,
16:32
SPEAKER_01: really good memories of church and was a part of,
16:37
SPEAKER_01: I think for the most part, pretty healthy churches.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- There were one of the churches we went to it wasn't Lutheran
16:46
SPEAKER_01: and my dad had some disagreements with them on their theology,
16:49
SPEAKER_01: but other than that,
16:50
SPEAKER_01: that was a good church to be at where it was formative for me in terms of kind
16:54
SPEAKER_01: of my thinking about ministry and health ministry was done.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- Jan and I went to a church that we loved
17:01
SPEAKER_01: so we had really positive experiences with church.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright Yeah, I was not as holy as you.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: I think the process of being in church was fine.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: I think it was a good church.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: I think the potlucks were really good, and I never understood any of the hymns.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright Yeah, right.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright And what I kept thinking was,
17:26
SPEAKER_00: and you know,
17:27
SPEAKER_00: there's going to be someone who's going to tell me just how wrong it was.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: What I kept thinking was,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: they would say,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: we're going to sing this hymn, and we're going to sing verses one, three and five.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright Yeah.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright And I would always feel like,
17:40
SPEAKER_00: do you think the author just didn't do such a good job on two and four?
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, isn't that that was not important to him?
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't understand why we could just dissect it like that.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: And it just never made any sense.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: And then
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Because they were too long This poor guy who you know or gal
17:59
SPEAKER_00: who wrote it 200 years ago was not was thinking two and four are just
18:03
SPEAKER_00: as like I'm telling a story here but yeah so it never made any sense to me and
18:08
SPEAKER_00: then I got into more of a modern worship
18:10
SPEAKER_00: and I think it just it just lit up my my soul I'm like now I understand what's
18:15
SPEAKER_01: happening or yeah can at least walk yeah and and and you know we're not gonna talk
18:21
SPEAKER_01: about
18:22
SPEAKER_01: you know what forms of worship are better than others there they all have something
18:28
SPEAKER_01: to offer because God is far more creative than we are and so God can be worshipped
18:34
SPEAKER_01: in a lot of different ways and people respond to worship in a lot
18:38
SPEAKER_01: of different ways some people love the liturgy there are some people
18:41
SPEAKER_01: of contemporary worship there are some who are
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright You know, more verbal in the way that they worship.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: There are some who are more contemplative in the way that they worship.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not about the form of worship.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of about the experience of church.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that you mentioned,
18:59
SPEAKER_01: which I think is really important, was I'll use the biblical word fellowship.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: It was the relationships for you that were kind of sticky for you in terms of the church.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright Yeah, and that's true for a lot of people.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: It's, it's really once you you know, you may go to a church and really like it.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: Or you may go to a church and it's okay.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: But once you start making friends, and you get involved, it becomes sticky.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: And then it becomes far more meaningful for you.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: So, but it still begs the question.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, does the
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Does church even matter?
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: Should we go to church?
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Why should we go to church?
19:52
SPEAKER_01: And if the church is capable of so much pain, what's the point?
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Counterargument is because the church is capable of so much good.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: But I think it would be good to start.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: The best way to answer that question,
20:09
SPEAKER_01: does the church matter, is to ask, well, what does Jesus think about the church?
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And so you're going to read for us.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: It's a passage about marriage, but it talks specifically about Jesus and the church.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: It is.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So this is Ephesians 5, starting at 25 through 29.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Husbands,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her in order
20:46
SPEAKER_00: to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word so as
20:53
SPEAKER_00: to present the church to himself in splendor without a spot or wrinkle or anything
21:01
SPEAKER_00: of the kind so that she may be holy and without blemish.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: In the same way husbands, yes.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Yep, we can stop.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: That's through 28.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: 25 to 28.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: So, husbands,
21:16
SPEAKER_01: love your wife, wives, well,
21:19
SPEAKER_01: hopefully you only have one wife,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: So does the church matter?
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, it matters a lot to Jesus.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: It does.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: And
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- He gave himself up for her because she did have some problems,
21:43
SPEAKER_01: you know, so he wants to present her holy.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: He's got a washer,
21:46
SPEAKER_01: clean her, which is metaphorical language for forgiveness and baptism and so on.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- The church church matters because it matters to Jesus.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: And if it matters to Jesus, then it should matter to us.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright- There are
22:03
SPEAKER_01: Some different metaphors that the church or the Bible uses and talking about Jesus
22:08
SPEAKER_01: and his relationship to the church.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: One of them is that we are we are the bride of Christ.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: And that she's many times.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: And so this is a metaphor now, right?
22:20
SPEAKER_01: But Jesus is the husband, so to speak, to the wife.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: And for those of you who are married, and are in good marriages,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: You know what that means?
22:34
SPEAKER_01: That is your number one concern.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: Your spouse is your friend.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: Your spouse is your lover.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Your spouse is your partner in life.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: You will do anything for your spouse.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Anything to care for and love for and protect your spouse.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: The church matters that much to Jesus that he would give his life for the church.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, here we're talking about church
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright But I think we could also say it matters in terms of local congregations
23:13
SPEAKER_01: because so much of the New Testament is about the formation of local churches.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Now, most of them were house churches when we read it in the book of Acts.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And all of the letters that Paul wrote and even the letter of
23:31
SPEAKER_01: In Revelation were written two churches local congregations and
23:38
SPEAKER_01: in Revelation we have Jesus speaking specifically
23:42
SPEAKER_01: to seven different local congregations so the fact that
23:48
SPEAKER_01: the Christian movement spread in part through local congregations and that
23:57
SPEAKER_01: the mission of Jesus as we talked about the last two weeks of
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Caring for the poor and the oppressed and fighting for justice happened
24:05
SPEAKER_01: through local congregations.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: And that we've got these letters written to local congregations says the church does matter.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: It matters to Jesus and therefore it should matter to us.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Now, that all sounds good on paper.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: So what do you do if you are, well, let's start here first.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: If you're not a part of a local church,
24:40
SPEAKER_01: it might be a good time to ask yourself the question,
24:43
SPEAKER_01: if I really am serious about following Jesus and the local church matters to Jesus,
24:50
SPEAKER_01: then maybe I should follow him on this one.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Maybe Jesus has something for me in a local community of faith
24:59
SPEAKER_01: That would be important for me.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, worship does a lot of things.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: First of all,
25:07
SPEAKER_01: it gives us an hour a week where we take our focus off of ourselves and we're able
25:11
SPEAKER_01: to be reminded that God loves us, that God cares for us.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: We're among a community of people.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: We can be a part of a congregation that can have far more impact
25:21
SPEAKER_01: when we do it together than if we just do it by ourselves.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: I can give five bucks to the disaster relief fund.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: But if I give my five bucks to the church and that's combined with another $400,
25:32
SPEAKER_01: $500, that's a much bigger impact.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: There are certain things that the local church can do with food drives and so on
25:42
SPEAKER_01: that I can't really do by myself.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the community that you find in the local church can be really important.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: So for those folks who are looking around,
25:52
SPEAKER_00: find a place where you can connect because there are times when you go into worship
25:58
SPEAKER_00: and you're just carried through worship by the believers that are around you.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Whatever's going on in your life, you don't feel like singing and that's okay.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: And that voice is just kind of passing through you.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: There's some real beauty there.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: So and really, it's about finding a church that fits for you.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: I am not an anti church shopper guy.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: I think if you if you're going to commit to a community of faith,
26:26
SPEAKER_01: it should be a community of faith where you're comfortable.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: And so you got to sort of think through what is it I believe about Jesus?
26:32
SPEAKER_01: What's important to me?
26:34
SPEAKER_01: And then look for a church that is as close as possible to that.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: I did hear,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: I did read one thing where it was said with compassion,
26:46
SPEAKER_01: but there was a guy,
26:48
SPEAKER_01: a theologian and somebody had come up to him and he said,
26:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't go to church because it's boring.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: And he said, church isn't about you.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: Church is about you going to worship God and reconnecting with God.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: So it's not about, you know, what kind of a thrill you get out of it.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: And he said, the impact is going to come by just doing it.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Even if it's boring sometimes,
27:13
SPEAKER_01: because you're in the presence of God and God is going to do something.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: For those of you who are in churches where you're thinking to yourself,
27:25
SPEAKER_01: there's something not right here.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: We spend a lot of time just talking about building our own buildings and focusing on ourselves.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: We aren't very good at welcoming other people to come.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't seem like Jesus to me.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: You know,
27:41
SPEAKER_01: it might be good to sit down with the pastor,
27:44
SPEAKER_01: which is no easy thing to do,
27:45
SPEAKER_01: believe me, and say, is there a way we could be a bit more open to other people?
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Is there a way we could be a bit more Jesus-like in the way we treat one another?
27:59
SPEAKER_01: Now, your pastor's going to probably get defensive, maybe.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe the pastor is just waiting for someone to come and say something.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: The pastor might say, that is a great idea.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Help us do that.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes, help us do that.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: But if you find that your church has become too insulated,
28:20
SPEAKER_01: too isolated for your liking,
28:22
SPEAKER_01: and you don't feel like that's going to change, then just chat with Jesus a bit.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: Say, do you want me to be here as a change agent,
28:31
SPEAKER_01: or am I going to be better served by finding a church that fits more
28:35
SPEAKER_01: of what I believe we should be doing and do that?
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: Again, I'm not, I'm a pastor.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm not opposed to that.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: I do think it's important for people to sort of find where they meet Jesus and
28:48
SPEAKER_01: where Jesus meets them.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: But I would also say then to those of you who love your church, get involved.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: And man, if you see some areas in your church that need help, areas in your church where
29:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, you feel like this is something that we could do that no other church is doing.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Speak up.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Say something.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Pray for your pastor.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Pray for your staff.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Support it financially.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Believe in the church the way that Jesus believes in the church.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: If the church matters to Jesus, then it should matter to us.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: And if it matters to Jesus, it's because he has something there for us.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: And if we're not there, we're not going to get it.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: If we're not involved, we're not going to experience it.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: So if Jesus loves your local church enough to die for it,
29:46
SPEAKER_01: then maybe it's worth investing some of your time there
29:50
SPEAKER_01: and seeing what Jesus might have for you in that place.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: That's not to say that we don't go to church to receive things.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Right?
29:58
SPEAKER_01: That's part of the reason why we go to church.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: To hear again that God loves us.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: To hear again a word of forgiveness.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: To connect with other people.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: Nothing wrong with that.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: But that's just a part of the story.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: The story is that we as a local congregation are called to be Jesus in our community.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: How is the best way that we can do that?
30:18
SPEAKER_01: And what role can I play in being Jesus to my community through my local church?
30:25
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: That's the way Jesus works.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: Jesus works through parachurch organizations like Food for the Hungry and so on and
30:34
SPEAKER_01: so forth.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: But where the real work happens in the world today is through the local congregations.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Being that neighborhood church,
30:44
SPEAKER_01: being the megachurch,
30:45
SPEAKER_01: whatever it is,
30:47
SPEAKER_01: that is saying loudly and clearly through the way that it loves,
30:52
SPEAKER_01: Jesus loves you too.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright How does your church love and how do you love in your church?
31:03
SPEAKER_00: There is goodness for you there in church and also the church needs you.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Whatever you bring, the church needs that and we're better together.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: Rick Warren, who was the pastor at Saddleback Community Church, big, big church over in
31:24
SPEAKER_01: Mission VA California used to say,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: are you really a baseball player if you're not on a baseball team?
31:35
SPEAKER_01: And his point is, are you really a Christian if you're not on the team?
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, yes, I'm a Christian if I don't go to church.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: But I'm not really in the game.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: I can be a baseball player, but if I'm not playing the game,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're
31:57
SPEAKER_01: missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright
31:58
SPEAKER_00: You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing
32:02
SPEAKER_01: out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're
32:04
SPEAKER_01: missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright
32:06
SPEAKER_01: You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing out Tim Wright You're missing
32:10
SPEAKER_01: out Tim Wright And so we were created for community We're created
32:11
SPEAKER_01: for mission We're called to mission We're called to mission We're called
32:13
SPEAKER_01: to community And that happens in this very imperfect thing called the local church
32:17
SPEAKER_01: And again if the church is toxic if it's abusive if it's abusive if it's abusive
32:19
SPEAKER_01: if it's been caught up in politics you don't that's not the church
32:26
SPEAKER_01: The church should be defined by one thing, the way that it loves the community.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: How does your church love the community?
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And that's what the world needs.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: That's what our communities need.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: And that's why the church matters.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: The church matters because it matters to Jesus and because it's through the church
32:45
SPEAKER_01: that Jesus loves and brings his grace to the world.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Well done.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: All right, so I think that'll be it for the church.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what John and I and possibly Terry are going to talk about next time,
32:59
SPEAKER_01: but it will be about something to do with Christianity in our series
33:03
SPEAKER_01: on Christianity 101.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: If these are helpful, share them with your friends.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: If they're not helpful, share them with your friends, and we'll be back with you next time.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: The Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, John.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for joining us.