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Where Else Can You Get a Dollar Fifty Hotdog and IVF Medication? · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  I, I have hidden a lot of Dog Man books in a closet in my life because I just, uh, I needed a break. [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.
• 0:17
  We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like mental health, and gummies, and wine, and perimenopause, and just giving up. Or not.
• 0:26
  Don't give up yet until you get the pop-up notification about democracy, when you are truly, for once, just trying to be present with, I don't know, man, whatever your kid is trying to tell you that you don't understand or care about or you're not allowed to say back to them.
• 0:40
  It doesn't matter. It's not an advice show. It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.
• 0:50
  And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important. You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, notrightnow.show..show.
• 1:00
  And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 1:08
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show. [upbeat music] Hey, it's Quinn, obviously. We have a guest today, again, which is really fun.
• 1:26
  Our guest is L'Oreal Thompson Payton. She is in Evanston, like Claire is. She's a bestselling author, an award-winning journalist. She's a keynote speaker. She is a mom.
• 1:37
  She runs an independent bookstore, which is fucking awesome. And she's a total blast to talk to.
• 1:42
  We cover everything from bookstores and having a toddler to IVF, and all kinds of very interesting stuff like that people don't talk about enough. Please enjoy this one.
• 1:51
  [upbeat music] Quinn, tell L'Oreal about the brain fog that you encountered this morning that you were texting me about that she might appreciate. Oh, just typical.
• 2:01
  Like, my wife's out of town, so for a week and a half, and basically my sleep gets progressively worse over that time because I'll do dumb shit like stay up and work and all that stuff. So stayed up too late at 4:00 AM.
• 2:12
  One of the children needs Motrin for phantom leg cramp. Do that. Yeah. Dog starts barking, the whole thing. Anyways, I'm tired. And I was like, "Oh, I... Let me look up L'Oreal's bookstore.
• 2:23
  I wanna see what the story is before, before we record." And in between that thought and typing it into fucking Google or whatever we're using these days, and it popped up, and it said, "Oh, it's in Evanston."
• 2:35
  I was like, "Oh, shit. Claire lives in Evanston. I should tell-" [laughs] "... Claire about this la- la- Yeah. She would love this lady." It's-- At this point, it's like 12 minutes until we record.
• 2:44
  And I was like, God, it's... I'm getting dumber every day. It's not- Thank you for thinking of me, though. You're totally we- I appreciate it.
• 2:49
  I was like, Claire's got this new Evanston newsletter, and this lady has set her bookstore. This is gonna be great. I totally heard this. They're gonna love-- They should talk. Fuck. Yeah.
• 2:58
  May I spill on your behalf, L'Oreal? Tell... I, I have it in mind. Maybe you've already forgotten it, but talk about the opening day...
• 3:05
  I think you had an opening day, like, bookstore snafu where you forgot to order something very key. Yeah, no, the Kamala Harris memoir- Mm.... was, like, the week that we opened or something like that, and I just...
• 3:17
  And several people called, and I was so embarrassed to be like, "So sorry," but you live and you learn. And I've [chuckles] since gotten better at pre-orders and everything.
• 3:26
  I made sure we had the Tayari Jones kid book in stock because I knew that would be a big one as well. But you know, you live and you learn. Yeah. I thought it came out in November. Apparently, it came out in September.
• 3:38
  They're the same thing- Nobody-... by the way, September and November. There's no difference anymore. Did either of you guys read that book, by the way? I have no thoughts on it. I'm just asking. I have-- I did.
• 3:46
  I listened to the audiobook. It just made...
• 3:49
  And I had to wait a while because initially when it came out, I was just like, "I'm not in the right head space because I'm so angry at this current administration," and it just would've reminded me of everything that we could have had.
• 4:00
  But then you have toward the end of it, like when you... 'Cause it's... I like the way they formatted it in terms of it literally starts on the 107th day, and then it kinda like counts down- Mm...
• 4:09
  to the election, and then shortly thereafter. So it'll be like October 16th, you know, like 12 days to the election or whatever the math is. It's not in my sweet spot. And yeah, it was a little depressing.
• 4:20
  But yeah, I mean, part of history- Yeah... so I felt like I had to. I'm not ready to revisit that, and also, I don't think I'm even willing to talk about Kamala Harris as a, like, frontrunner for whatever the next...
• 4:32
  What are we, 2028? Oh. What are we looking at here? I just ca- I... But it's not 'cause of her. I just am like, it's too fresh. I don't... Or it's too painful. Yeah. I don't know.
• 4:40
  Quinn, have you read that or have you- I don't know if fresh is the word. I just think everyone is, like, somewhere between shattered and raw, like, at all times. Yeah.
• 4:48
  Like, I go back and forth between, like, Little John coming out when w- they were doing the state roll call and yesterday- Forgot about that... basically. Like, those are where my feelings go- Yeah... most of the time.
• 4:59
  So no, I mean, I haven't read anything that, that is, like, remotely intelligent or provocative- Mm... in 10 years at this point because-- [chuckles] unless it's, like, directly my other work related. Like I...
• 5:13
  It's just, I... It's the day job. I'm too tired. Yeah. No, I get it. I'm thinking for fun about reading a book about the Challenger disaster just 'cause it's outside my bedroom right now.
• 5:22
  I'm like, that'll be sort of light- Oh... compared to everything. Can I just real quick preface this conversation? All I wanna do is talk about the bookstore, so we can totally talk about other stuff.
• 5:30
  But while we're- Yeah... talking, you should know that's all I'm thinking about. That's it. Go ahead. And that's where I am, so- Perfect... it's very fitting. Mm-hmm.
• 5:37
  And in case customers walk in, I might have to be like, "Hey, this is work life." [chuckles] Tell us about the genesis of the bookstore, and that's not like what we had top of notes.
• 5:46
  I warned you we were kinda loosey-goosey with the topics. Yeah. But you must know how hard it is to run a bookstore and to be-- to run a brick and mortar store as an author yourself, as a person.
• 5:56
  So what led you to decide, despite everything I know and don't know, I am gonna open a real live bookstore?
• 6:02
  H- Tell us how that came about.I actually just wrote a very lengthy newsletter post about this for colleague Lex Roman, their newsletter, Revenue Rule Breakers and I put it this way, a dash of delulu, neurology and just a lot of freaking hard work.
• 6:22
  So I think as a writer, as a reader even, going back to when I was a kid, just loved books. I have a picture, my first book, of me and my sister on the sofa. I'm like three and a half, got a, a, what's it called?
• 6:36
  Like spiral notebook on my lap and I'm writing.
• 6:38
  I loved Bernstein Bears, Goosebumps, Sweet Valley High, all these things, but didn't really see, like, Black girls portrayed as the main character and that's what sort of sparked my interest in writing because little L'Oreal was like, "I'm gonna grow up and I'm gonna be editor-in-chief of a teen magazine and, you know, like, change the world."
• 6:57
  Spoiler, never got quite that far. Did work at Teen Magazine and other magazines. Started off in journalism and was always like, "Oh, one day I'll write a book."
• 7:06
  And so in that same kind of philosophy, it was like, "Oh, one day maybe I'll open a bookstore," right?
• 7:11
  Remember all those memes, it's like the feminine urge to open up a bookshop that doubles as a coffee store- [laughs]... and a, uh, and a flower shop or whatever. That was a dream. That was the retirement dream.
• 7:21
  I went to Cafe Con Libros, intersectional bookstore, f- intersectional feminist bookstore in Brooklyn back in 2018 or '19 with a couple of friends.
• 7:31
  We did like a Brooklyn bookstore crawl and went in, fell in love and I was like, "This is what I wanna do.
• 7:37
  I wanna have a tri-story, like, first floor coffee shop, bookstore, second floor co-working space, third floor yoga studio," and then I just put it on the back burner and I was like, "Well, one day."
• 7:50
  And then one day became last year. Like, opening a bookstore was not on my 2025 bingo card.
• 7:56
  However, I was not getting offers for full-time roles that I was interviewing for, and at the same time was starting to teach yoga at the Aux Wellness Collective where the bookstore is now housed, and was like, "Well, what if I just did a pop-up or something like that?"
• 8:12
  And the owner was like, "Well, we have this open retail space if you wanna check it out," and it was love at first sight.
• 8:19
  Put up the crowdfunding campaign, raised like $3,000 overnight, and then we got to 11,000 by the end, and so it was just like, "Oh, we're doing this." And everything just came together so...
• 8:32
  I won't say easily, but there is an ease about it that I feel like only happens when you're working in alignment with your purpose, and this is very much what I feel like I'm supposed to be doing.
• 8:44
  I'm supposed to be writing. I'm supposed to be gathering people together in this space. It's just, like, the power of words and storytelling and community.
• 8:52
  Even at a time where books are under attack, DI's under attack, to have a space that's boldly proclaiming, "No, this is what we stand for," is my piece of resistance.
• 9:03
  So that is the, the long and short of it, of how Zora's Place came about. How much writing are you actually getting done while you're running a bookstore? None. Perfect. Check. But wait. Was that your expect...
• 9:15
  W- was that your expectation where you were like, "I'll get a little done," or... Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh-huh.
• 9:20
  I was like, "I will write when it's slow," and then a bookseller friend of mine, actually Eve Ewing, who's a co-owner of Build down in, on the South Side of Chicago, is like, "Well, you don't want it to be slow." Mm.
• 9:30
  "You want people, you know, to come in," and I don't think...
• 9:33
  And naively I will admit that I am definitely one of those people who glamorize the idea of owning a bookstore, sh- I think as, you know, many of us do, without realizing how much of the, how much admin goes into it.
• 9:48
  Mm-hmm. And just, like, the promoting of it all and the inventory and just, like, all of the logistic parts. I feel like honestly my reading even has declined since- Mm...
• 9:57
  opening a bookstore, which is really embarrassing. No.
• 10:00
  But my audio book usage is on the rise 'cause driving, but Claire, you know Evanston, everything is 10 minutes away, so it takes me, like, a month to finish one book. No, there's...
• 10:10
  I have a friend, my friend Kate Harding, she owns Jarvis Square Books, and because she's a standalone space, I think she deals with a little bit more, like, foot traffic, like rando foot traffic- Yeah...
• 10:19
  than you do 'cause The Aux is sort of like a one big- Hidden gem... building that houses... Yeah. But it houses a lot of different places, which is nice for you- Yeah... but you don't have to cite this one spot.
• 10:28
  But she talked about people coming in and getting into fights with other customers 'cause they were accusing them of selling Little Free Library books, things like... Just kind of thing, like crazy things- Oh, wow...
• 10:38
  like this where, you know- Yeah... people have weird opinions and things like that, so. Yeah.
• 10:43
  This is sort of a lady question, but I can only imagine, I don't know about Quinn, I don't know if guys feel this way, but I live in sweats. I rot all the time.
• 10:51
  I think about this version of myself where I put myself out in the world wearing nice clothes, real shoes- Mm-hmm... real pants.
• 10:59
  You have a reason to be out in the world and present yourself, and I'm just curious if so far you feel good about the bookstore L'Oreal, who...
• 11:06
  Like, you know, I imagine, uh, like, k- kids run in and see you, and you are like a doyenne of the neighborhood and a taste maker. How are you feeling about your clothing options and your styling options- Mm...
• 11:17
  as that front-facing person? Well, it's funny that you ask this today of all days because I'm literally in a yoga set.
• 11:25
  Got my sweatshirt on, the, like, Black girl version of a messy bun, and tennis shoes because I'm teaching a yoga class tonight at The Aux.
• 11:34
  I don't have any events or, like, forward-facing besides this, but I figured since it's about parenting, that it would be, you know, safe space.
• 11:41
  But that is definitely something that I had in mind, especially because I haven't worked inside of an office since March 2020 when that role went remote, and then I was freelancing, and I left Fortune right before they went to hybrid.
• 11:56
  So I was, I was also living in sweats and yoga sets. But now when we have events and things, I put forth a little more effort. I try, but it's still, I'm still building out my wardrobe.
• 12:09
  I feel like, you know, kind of quote "post-pandemic"Postpartum and just also figuring out like what this version of me, like what my... I've never been the most fashionable person. Like, I will tell you that straight up.
• 12:23
  Jeff, my husband, is the more-- He's the fashionista out of the two of us. But I, I try some days, but most days this is, what you see is what you get.
• 12:34
  Well, fortunately, so like yoga wear is the shit, and it is what people wear, so you know, you are on point. So you're doing a great job. Thanks. Tell the people who are not listening, who don't know you- Yeah...
• 12:44
  how old your child is and what the state of the union is on her, what she's into these days. Yes. Ooh, so much energy. So Violet's four.
• 12:51
  I joke that she is my assistant store manager and junior bookseller, except it's not really a joke.
• 12:57
  Like high-key, I really do feel like she thinks that the bookstore belongs to her, and she just lets me like babysit it during the day while she's at school.
• 13:07
  It's funny, when she comes in, she does a little bit of rearranging, and I will... So like most of the time, it's on Saturdays when she's in the store.
• 13:15
  We're closed Sunday, Monday, and so when I open back up on Tuesday, I will find Post-it notes in random places or like lollipops, and she's decorating.
• 13:24
  Or for some reason now, Toni Morrison is in the romance section, and I'm like, "Well, that's okay." But yeah, she's got her little stool, and, you know, she makes sure that, you know, it's up to her standards. Hmm.
• 13:35
  So very much into reading, loves books. The apple did not fall far from the tree.
• 13:41
  And Claire, I think I mentioned to you that one of her first temper tantrums on record was about not going to the library, because I made the mistake when she was maybe about like 14, 16 months, something like this, somewhere between one and two, and had mentioned like, "Hey, gotta go to the library to drop off these books before, you know, we go get Dad from the train station."
• 14:01
  And I knew in my mind that I meant I was just gonna put them in the chute and go about our merry way. And so once we pick up Jeff, and we get back home, and she realizes we didn't go into the library, it's a problem.
• 14:15
  Yeah. And so I just told Jeff, I was like, "You start dinner. I'm gonna take her back. We're gonna go there." And even last week, we were at the library, and she did not want to leave, and I had to coerce her.
• 14:24
  I was like, "Yo, Dad forgot his keys. Like, we literally have to go let him in." And so I mean, of all things, like that's great, right? That she's really into that. She loves art.
• 14:36
  She wants to be an artist when she grows up, this week at least. That's how we ended up going to the library, because her favorite babysitter had her painting at the Black History Month exhibit that was up there.
• 14:45
  That's so cool. And really into science too. Yeah, the planets. She's telling me things that I didn't even learn, so she's just very into it all. Loves school, loves learning.
• 14:56
  [upbeat music] So we're on a big cleaning streak right now. As you can imagine, I'm very annoying about it to my children. But we're trying to dial it down to the essentials at home.
• 15:09
  So whether you're an appliance, a piece of furniture, or clothing, whatever, you gotta earn your spot. Everything's got a place.
• 15:17
  Everything has utility, which is hard with kids who constantly bring things into the house and all their stuff, and it's really hard when you're trying to feed them constantly.
• 15:27
  And there are various appliances that are advertised to you that can literally do one thing that honestly can't justify the counter space. But I'll tell you what does.
• 15:39
  It's the Mill Food Recycler, and holy cow, does it ever. It doesn't even go on the counter, by the way. It goes on the floor like a sexy trash can. It plugs into a standard outlet, and voila, no more food waste.
• 15:53
  Got peels, bones, stalks, whatever, leftovers? Put them in there, and then while you sleep, the Mill automatically turns on, dries, and grinds them, and it doesn't smell at all. It's crazy. Again, let's rehash.
• 16:07
  Not only does it not stink up the house, or two, cause leaky trash bags, which are disgusting, and three, send leftover food to the landfill to turn into waste, and then methane, and then rising oceans.
• 16:20
  It actually makes you feel good, because it grinds up all of your food waste into these adorable grounds you can use in the garden, you can give to a local farm, you can put them right in the green bin.
• 16:31
  You can even ship back to Mill via postal service pickups like it's Netflix in 2003. Anyways, a delight, a game changer. You guys can get $75 off right now when you go to our special site.
• 16:44
  I'm gonna read it to you, but you should know the link is right in the show notes, and you can just smash your finger against it. It's mill.com/lp/important-not-important. Can I remember that? No.
• 16:58
  That's why we put the link right in the show notes.
• 17:00
  So anyways, huge thanks to Mill for doing the right thing and trying to cut down on food waste, most of which comes from our homes, for sponsoring our work, and of course, thanks to you listeners for always supporting our partners.
• 17:13
  [upbeat music] That's amazing. Don't let anyone... Maybe you've already... Maybe you, this is out of your hands. Maybe you can help it, but if someone tries to give you a kids' science kit, don't... Just hide it.
• 17:25
  Don't let her open it. No good. You know what I'm talking about, Quinn, with the powder? It's like you want to have open powders. I do, but I mean, look, here's my policy.
• 17:32
  Like Craig, or one thing we've talked about here is to fight screens, which again, not organically bad. It is, uh, like any technology, the way we use them- Yeah... or programmed to use them.
• 17:44
  But my wife and I realized we gotta offer alternatives, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause we just kept saying no, and it wasn't working. So if there's a science kit to be had, that's fine. But at the same time, the same rules apply.
• 17:55
  There's no fucking slime in my house. We're not doing that. Like- Right... this powder shit, you guys are cleaning the whole thing up. And are they only getting halfway through the kit? Of course.
• 18:03
  There's no version of them doing the entire thing, much less in one-Sitting. But, so I don't know. The point is, I see both sides of it, I guess. I'm just saying science- Yeah... can be done outside of the house.
• 18:13
  You know, you can do it at the museum. There's kids learning places. Mm-hmm. I'm just saying there's a time and a place for science, and those kits, those like ge- National Geographic kits are not it. So, you know.
• 18:23
  Oh, yo. Someone got her- Go to Dave's Rock Shop, buy a geode. That's fine. I'm gonna send your kids so many science kits. Okay.
• 18:29
  Someone got her one of those, you know, that's the National Geographic one that was like the marble kit or something. Mm-hmm. Like, they glow in the dark.
• 18:35
  And the, on the box it says, you know, for age like eight up or something like that. Someone got it for her third birthday. Mm-hmm.
• 18:41
  It was good friends of ours, and I know for a fact, this is no shade, but like I know that the husband picked out the gift and not the wife, because of course he did. Sure. But she loved that thing.
• 18:52
  Yeah, to the point of like screen time and offering alternatives, I realize that we are the alternative, so it's like reading 10 books a night. Mm. We are also her, like, play partners.
• 19:03
  Yeah, there are times where we're like, "We probably should have just transferred the two embryos at one time so she would have a built-in play partner, and it not be us," 'cause it gets exhausting.
• 19:13
  There's so many rules. They have so many rules to their game, and the characters, and I've never done so many voices in my life, but she just has big imagination, so I'm like, "All right. Guess this is what we're doing."
• 19:26
  Yeah.
• 19:26
  I have a friend who's got an only child daughter, and same thing where it's like you're the employees of this child, 'cause they don't have someone else to boss around or to boss them around, and so you have to- Exactly...
• 19:36
  eat what they make or follow the rules that they have. I wanna ask about the embryo journey, especially 'cause Quinn has- Yeah... a perspective on it. Real...
• 19:43
  Well, first of all, we did talk about earlier how tan- book tantrums are not as soul destroying as like a- Easy... screen time tantrum- Yeah... or like a candy tantrum. Mm-hmm.
• 19:52
  You know, we, spoiling your kids with books is like not as shameful as spoiling them with, you know, I don't know what, Robux or something like that.
• 19:58
  But I just wanna know whether Violet likes any books or series that you are like, "We could be done with this, and I wouldn't be mi- I wouldn't mind." Anything that you are...
• 20:07
  You know, all books are great, but are there any that you're like, "We could be..." Like, for me, it's Stick Dog. I don't know if you're familiar with that series, but I like- Excuse me. What's it called? Stick Dog. Oof.
• 20:16
  It's, uh- I lost the S the first time you said it... is it Dog Man? No, it's not Dog Man. It's called Stick Dog, and it is basically a- Is it like grocery brand of, of Dog Man? Kinda.
• 20:26
  It is basically like a dog and his dumb friends, and they're always getting into trouble, and Stick Dog can't believe that his friends are so dumb. And I feel like that's kind of the gist of it, and I...
• 20:37
  Well, anyway, that's my like, "I, I'm done with this one." Are there... Does Violet have better- Yeah... taste than that? Were there any ones that you're, you could hide forever?
• 20:45
  For the most part, we're good, but there's actually the one that she picked out to read last night that my sister-in-law got for her, so it's one of those, like, personalized books, so it has Violet and her cousin.
• 20:58
  Mm-hmm. And it is the longest fricking book, and it's not even good. Like, the writing, they didn't write it. Yeah. They just like, you know, you send in their information. Oh, yeah.
• 21:06
  They make the book and all, but it just is so long, and I know she picks it because it's long, and she gets to, you know, procrastinate bedtime a little bit more- Sure... because she is smart in that way.
• 21:16
  Not so much books, but TV shows. If we could never watch Super Kitties ever again- Oof... or Paw Patrol, I would be happy.
• 21:23
  That is so true about the personalized books, and we have one of those, and I am sad that my kids have a long last name, 'cause it was like one for every letter of their name, and you're like, "I'm gonna..." Oh.
• 21:34
  You know, like, "D is for the dogfish." Anyway, it was pirate related. It's fine. Quinn, how about you guys?
• 21:40
  And then I know your kids are, like, slightly older, so you don't really have to worry about reading to them as much, but anything that you, from your memory- I still love my kids, Claire, so I still read to them every night, unlike you.
• 21:50
  I look forward to it. One, when I'm reading, they usu- usually do not feel the need to ask me questions, so it's a break for both of us from the questions. And two, I, yeah, I get something out of it.
• 22:03
  I think it's meaningful for my relationship with my children, Claire. Now, the shit that they could be done with, I mean, definitely got... Look, here's the deal. Whatever gets kids reading, don't care.
• 22:14
  Like, truly, whatever gets kids reading. Yeah. I have hidden a lot of Dog Man books in a closet in my life, because I just, I needed a break. Did I, like, hand them Calvin and Hobbes as an alternative? Sure.
• 22:26
  Are they comparable in some ways in tone? Sure. But it's just enough. But we've moved out a lot of that. Good news, we're in, like, a real Hamilton phase right now, so he's just, like- Great for him...
• 22:36
  going through that book. My daughter's burning through every Babysitter's Club and Babysitter's Little Sister, and also she's discovered Sweet Valley High, which is exciting. Yes. And a bunch of other stuff.
• 22:47
  Some, like, we found a Greek myth book that is controversial and good. Uh- Whoa. You're... Forget she's like, "Boy, Zeus has a lot of kids with a lot of people." They loved to rape and, like- Yep... bestiality- Yep...
• 22:58
  incest. Yep. Yeah. But we're committed to reading it, so, and yeah, so I don't know. We're okay for now, but yes, I've definitely had a few like this where we could be done with this. Yeah.
• 23:09
  It's an interesting ti- I, Mikey just read Wonder, and Loreal, your daughter- Mm... might read it, like, before too long, but that's, I think it's an assigned chapter book a lot. Mm-hmm.
• 23:17
  And both of my kids got super sucked into it, but, like, a weird side effect is that, I forgot how it came up, but there was a guy I went to school with who had a sort of craniofacial difference, and my son was really wanting to know about that and wanting to Google him to the point where I was like, "This might be a little bit untoward," but you know, like, glad we're talking about books in our way.
• 23:37
  The other thing that was funny is that we just got a copy of New York Magazine in the mail yesterday, and it's an interesting issue about what everyone makes, or they surveyed all these people.
• 23:46
  But it, the problem is that- Mm... it's Manhattan. So my son is like, "You can make $70,000 a year as a dog walker?" And we're like, "Yeah, but your rent is also, like, 2,500 a month." That's probably low- Yeah...
• 23:58
  for, you know, a zero bedroom place. Mm-hmm. Anyway, glad he's reading. Glad he's taking things in. So Loreal, tell us about the memoir you're working on, and sort of what- Yes...
• 24:07
  the state of that is.Yeah, very chaotic at the moment. So I'm writing an infertility memoir called Infertile Black Girl. It'll be out with Beacon Press next spring.
• 24:17
  And it's kind of a mind fuck because we're also going under IVF for baby number two, hopefully. And so doing both of those things at the same time is just kind of like 10 out of 10 would not recommend.
• 24:31
  It's just emotionally, physically, of course, but also kind of like I'm writing... I'm living this in real time, like writing it in real time.
• 24:41
  And with telling my therapist, it's, "I don't know how this is going to end," because I mean, our first draft is due in July, and who's to say where we'll be by then?
• 24:50
  Like, we just had our third retrieval last week, and so today or tomorrow we should find out, like, how many made it to day seven, and then they're off to genetic testing, and then there's more waiting, and then there's, if we're lucky enough this time to have a genetically viable, like, genetically tested normal embryo, then there is two months of medication that I need to take to suppress the adenomyosis that I have that I didn't know I had until last month, because this whole time, like from last year when we had a couple of failed embryo transfers, the diagnosis was, or suspected endometriosis based on, you know, like the testing and all that they did, except to go into surgery last month and then wake up and they're like, "Oh, well, we didn't see any endometriosis."
• 25:37
  And I was like, "I'm sorry, what?" I was so pissed, and then when they told... 'Cause I'd never even heard of adenomyosis. It's just like a microcosm of the disrespect, honestly, that people with...
• 25:52
  What's the plural of uteruses? I don't know. Uteri? Uteri. Uteri. Yeah. Uteri? Okay. I didn't take Latin, so I wasn't sure.
• 25:59
  But yeah, the lack of research behind things, the knowledge and all of it, studies that don't really do us justice.
• 26:07
  And so basically adenomyosis is endometriosis of the uterus, so instead of the tissue growing on the outside in different organs, it's within the uterine wall, most likely in people who have had a myomectomy to remove uterine fibroids, which I did back in 2017, people who have C-sections, which I did back in 2021.
• 26:28
  And so it's just, I feel like a constant plot twist in terms of what's coming up in terms of my reproductive health.
• 26:34
  And of course, you know, you have the advanced maternal age and all of that jazz, and also now Violet is at the age where she is cognizant of the fact that her friends all have siblings and has asked as much, "So Mommy, when am I gonna be a big sister?"
• 26:49
  And I'm like, "Well, you know, we're working on it." She's like, "Is it gonna be a boy or a girl?" Like, "Well, I don't actually know. Like, it's gonna be a surprise."
• 26:55
  And she's like, "I think a girl," and just went about her little, you know, four-year-old business. But that is, yeah, something that is, like, top of mind 'cause the clock's running out.
• 27:05
  Also, the fertility benefits have run out 'cause that's not really... It's, I forget how much for lifetime coverage, but barely enough to cover, like, one medication, you know, without insurance. So it's just kind of a,
• 27:20
  yeah, clusterfuck. Although it just is gonna start offering fertility meds, which is awesome, 'cause I mean, where else can you get a $1.50 hotdog combo and also IVF medication? Like, Costco for the win. Amazing.
• 27:34
  Well, thank you for sharing all that. It's, it is a journey even if you're not writing a book about it. Like you said, it's the...
• 27:40
  I would rather have a four-year-old who's sweetly asking for a specific brand of sister than the fucking people who would tell us, "Just go have a glass of wine and relax, and it'll work out. It'll be fine.
• 27:52
  You'll have more babies than you can count with." Yeah. And you're like, "Well, I'm gonna kill you." So I'll take Violet and her perspective on it all day.
• 27:58
  When you know your answer is just like, "Violet, it's whatever ends up in the shopping cart," we'll t- you know, truly- Truly. Yeah. I remember with my now 13-year-old, who was, you know, sort of our end of the road.
• 28:12
  We, you know, we...
• 28:14
  You said it, I don't remember your wording for the advanced age pregnancy, but I remember the first time my wife, who I think was 34, I don't know, whatever, the first time we started going in for IVF stuff when it wasn't working, and they used the term, I think it's geriatric pregnancy or something, and she was like- Yeah...
• 28:32
  "Excuse me?" It's all rude. Like- So rude... and that's, that's like the first shot across the bow, and you're just like, "Oh, okay. Got it. Right. That's what we're dealing with." Yes.
• 28:39
  And they're like, "No, it's a techni-" And you're like, "Still doesn't feel great," but- No, no. Yeah.
• 28:44
  I remember, yeah, for th- w- you know, we had all these miscarriages, and we, a- all the F and IVF, and like you said, w- our insurance didn't give... This was 15 years ago.
• 28:52
  Our insurance didn't cover anything, so it was every dollar we had. Every dollar. And we never really got to the root of why it didn't work. We've some ideas. It was specifically not on my side.
• 29:02
  From what you could tell was when they, like, combined ours, but it may have been, like, some environmental stuff she was exposed to. Anyways, the point is, like, we had no idea.
• 29:10
  We had all these amazing doctors who tried so hard, and finally, like you said, you can retrieve 50 eggs, and three days later they're like, "You have one and a half embryos, and one of them is very sketchy looking."
• 29:24
  And- Exactly that... that was basically what my 13-year-old was. They were like, "Look, you can put it in if you want. It's not great." Like on- Yeah... the chromosome stuff, they're like, "There's no red flags.
• 29:33
  There's not a lot of, like, green flags here." [chuckles] They were like, "Here you go. Best wishes. See you never." Mm-hmm. And
• 29:42
  because of our track record and because of every scientific thing that we could pay for told us we, it wasn't gonna happen, and because they were just like, "This guy looks like a Picasso painting under a microscope, it's not happening," and then it does, and the same...
• 29:56
  That's where I get the people are like, "Oh, are you excited? What's it gonna be like?" I'm like-I don't know. I don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and that's similar to our story too. Violet was...
• 30:07
  The transfer for her is the one that we were just like, okay, 'cause the insurance at the time was like "Well, you have to have, you know, two transfers with two genetically tested normal embryos before we will cover the biopsy and the ERA thing- Yeah...
• 30:22
  to diagnose whatever is happening." So she was the second of two.
• 30:27
  We, up until then, very naive in our, like, beginning fertility stage, had told our family and friends, like, each time we had a transfer, then each time having to not only be disappointed ourselves, but then also tell them.
• 30:41
  Yeah. So this time we were like, we're not telling anybody. We're just gonna get this over with so we can get onto the biopsy and just move on with our lives.
• 30:49
  And then that ended up being the one that worked, and we were like, "Oh, shit."
• 30:53
  But I also feel like that's something that people don't talk about openly, at least that I've seen, and what I'm writing about in the book is, like, that's just the beginning.
• 31:02
  Like, you think that's the finish line where- Uh-uh... it's, "Yay, positive pregnancy." No. No, no. Come in, it's great.
• 31:08
  We need to have your HCG double within 48 hours, so you need to come back to the clinic on Monday for some testing. And I'm just like, I don't know what these things mean. Mm-hmm.
• 31:16
  And now I'm anxious, and that anxiety for me didn't go away.
• 31:21
  Because we had had so many failed transfers, because so much had gone wrong, I spent the majority of my pregnancy just, like, waiting for the other shoe to drop, which is- Well, of course...
• 31:32
  just no way to live your life. And yeah, the depression and just all of it- Meanwhile, like you're, you're trying to bake this thing. Oh yeah, it's a... It's almost, you know, the puberty stuff.
• 31:41
  It's like the baseline is the hormones are insane- Yes... and then they're putting more into you because they're like, "We're gonna build this optimal environment for whatever you got going on."
• 31:49
  The number of shots though- Yo, all the shots in the ass... is outrageous. Outra- we had so many needles in our house. Mm-hmm. It was crazy. Oh my God, yeah. It's crazy.
• 31:59
  And again, you're like, "Well, then I'll just take... If it checks these, you know, seven out of 10 boxes, sure." Yeah. And it...
• 32:06
  The rest of our stories, we just, we ended up, we had him, and horrific delivery and emergency C-section- Mm... and, like, wife and baby bleeding out type of thing. So fun. She doesn't remember any of it, thank God.
• 32:19
  I remember the whole thing, which is the way it should be. And then I remember three months later, again doing one of these checkups, and they're like, "Well, listen, if you want another kid, you should try now."
• 32:28
  And we're like talking. Yeah. But we did. We wanted a sibling, if we're lucky. I mean, we didn't think a year before that we could have anything. Yeah. And so we did another couple, and it worked.
• 32:37
  And then of course we had a third one, sex one time while my wife was breastfeeding and, and had our third one, the surprise. Sure. Why not? So we had three under three for a little bit, and it was chaos.
• 32:47
  And again, we spent all- Oh... of our money and did it, but I, I get it. At no point, unless, like, the first round works for you, unless, like, you're one of those people, it's like, "We had a little trouble." No.
• 32:57
  "Here's a shot of Clomid. Congrats, you have twins." That was not us. Right. Like, at no point do you feel confident that it's gonna- Really... work. So I- Yeah...
• 33:08
  can't imagine this journey you're on of let me rehash it all and document it for this little girl who I hope is leaving, like, closed lollipops. Claire and my kids- Mm...
• 33:17
  it would be open lollipops all over the bookstore. But, like, how you do that and keep an eye on her while you're trying to do it again is just... It's incredible, frankly.
• 33:26
  But like you said, more people need to talk about it. Yeah. No, I was telling... 'Cause I remember our first radio, and a colleague telling me, like, IVF is a full-time job on top of a full-time job.
• 33:36
  At the time, I was working at a non-profit and still- Yeah... yes, but also it was, like, just me and Jeff. Now it's a full-time job on top of a full-time job on top of parenting. Mm-hmm.
• 33:46
  And that's a whole nother just... And she's so inquisitive, so curious, so she sees me getting the shots. She tries to make me feel better. "Mommy, I'll hold your hand. It's okay." Mm. And I'm like, "Oh, thank you.
• 33:59
  Thank you, sweetheart." So she's not, you know, aware why Jeff is just like, "Give, you know, Mommy her medicine." You know, she doesn't know she's an IVF baby yet.
• 34:09
  Of course, we will explain it to her, you know, when she gets a little bit older, and just that this is, you know, one way that people can have families.
• 34:17
  There's a lot of families look very different, and we're fortunate within our, like, friend circle and things that she can see that in action, so it's, like, normal to her. "Oh, this person has two dads.
• 34:28
  This person has two moms. Like, this person just has one parent and by choice, and that's okay." So yeah, grateful for that. But oh my gosh, to
• 34:38
  do this, open a brick-and-mortar, which I'd never done before and is a completely different beast from being a service provider like a writer, and also IVF while parenting an existing child. Yeah.
• 34:52
  Like, I recently wrote an essay for, um, Self about secondary infertility and just kind of like that gray space that you're in where you don't fit into the, like, traditional infertility groups because you have an existing child.
• 35:07
  And at the same time, all of my mom friends are on their, like, second, third kids, and they don't really get it when you're coordinating the, you know, those early morning blood tests and monitoring appointments around daycare drop-off.
• 35:19
  And just like, who's gonna watch her while we have, you know, the retrieval last Friday and daycare was closed?
• 35:24
  And thankfully, we have friends who live in Oak Brook because, of course, all of the procedures are out in Oak Brook Beach. And it's just, like, logistical kind of like nightmare, and so we've had to really rely on...
• 35:36
  'Cause we don't have family out here. Jeff's from Ohio. I'm from Maryland. And so we've fortunately built this village around us that has been so supportive.
• 35:45
  Violet was with our friends on Friday when I had the retrieval, and then I had another mom friend watching the bookstore while I was gone. And I'm just so grateful for the other moms, honestly.
• 35:55
  And then, like, the friend right at the play date, she, like, made me a whole care basket with, like, warm socks and a heating pad- Mm...
• 36:02
  and spa headband and, like, face mask, and it was justI almost cried because the most thoughtful thing that-- And I'm that friend for other people so be on, to be on the receiving end honestly is a little uncomfortable because- Oh...
• 36:17
  I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you did this for me? You shouldn't have." But, and I would do it in a heartbeat for someone else, so it's also taught me to be open to help, to not only ask for the help, but to receive the help.
• 36:30
  For me- Right... a lot of times is the hard part because people offer all the time, and I'm like, "Oh no, I've got it."
• 36:34
  But this has really forced my hand to the like, "Actually, I don't, so if you could do this, and you could do that, that would be great." And people stepping up to the plate, I just...
• 36:43
  It takes a village truly in all sense of the word and in all of my like different roles, you know, to raise a bookseller, to raise a mom, to raise a child for sure.
• 36:53
  And yeah, Evanston's a really great place to, to do that, so. [upbeat music] Hey, I have three kids. They eat so much. We try to eat real food. We try to cook when we can.
• 37:07
  We try not to waste too much 'cause it drives me nuts, and it's expensive and also for obvious climate reasons, which is why the Mill Food Recycler changed our lives a couple years ago.
• 37:20
  It is an odorless, effortless, and fully automated food recycler. Look, we've had this thing front and center in our kitchen for, again, a couple years now it feels like, and it is just such a game changer.
• 37:35
  Way less waste, less smell, way less garbage, which by the way saves you money. No leaky bags.
• 37:42
  Look, you got peels, bones, stalks, whatever leftovers, dump them in the Mill, and Mill dries and grinds them while you sleep. Again, it doesn't smell, which I don't understand. It's sleek. It's actually sexy.
• 37:57
  Here's a question people ask, "How often do you empty it?" Good question. It's every three weeks. I don't know, maybe, and there's a bunch of us.
• 38:05
  Plus, there's a little app where you can control it if you want and set a schedule, and it shows you how much food your family keeps out of landfills. A delight.
• 38:13
  Look, you can get $75 off right now when you go to our special partner site. I'm gonna read you the link, but you should know it's also in the show notes, and you can just click it.
• 38:24
  It is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. That is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. I couldn't remember that, so we put it in the show notes.
• 38:42
  It's right there for you. Check it out. Huge thanks to Mill for sponsoring our work and doing the right thing, and thanks to all of you listeners for supporting our partners. [upbeat music] That makes me happy to hear.
• 38:55
  I think that is so right about the learning how to accept help and, and to not, like, to let it go, to almost accept it in a careless... I don't wanna say careless way, but that you're not keeping a count necessarily.
• 39:06
  Mm-hmm. Like someone that... This is before even, like, needing help, help, but I remember talking to a woman, Jennifer Goforth Gregory, I don't know if you know her. She's, like, in the freelance world. Mm-hmm.
• 39:14
  But she just, like, always is offering leads and advice, and I asked her once, "What's your mentality on being... You're so helpful."
• 39:20
  And she said that the way she sees it, the world has a bucket in the middle of it, and you put as much as you can in it, and then sometimes the bucket empties on you, and the same way- Oh, man...
• 39:30
  you put things in it, you let it come on you. And I don't know. I don't...
• 39:33
  I feel like I'm in this weird portal place with my parents and the caretaking and, and I think I used to really pride myself on being there for people. Mm-hmm. And I don't...
• 39:40
  This sounds awful, but I'm not as much I think like right now, but I also am like, "That's okay-" Yeah... "because that's not my time for that." But I'm so... I think not until you have kids.
• 39:48
  Like, I remember when my second was born, my friend's, my mom's friend offered to come be with him, and I think she just wanted to hold the baby, which is totally valid. Grandma, you know, grandma privilege. Oh, yeah.
• 40:00
  But I think with my first kid, I would've been very worried about doing something noble or not even letting her help. And doing- But this time I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go get a pedicure." And she- Yes...
• 40:10
  and I would not have had the wherewithal to be, like, accepting the help and then going to do something- Mm-hmm... that I really wanted to do with it instead of something that seemed,
• 40:19
  you know, I don't know, right- righteous, you know, uh, like deserving- Yeah... of that. So I'm glad that the community has stepped up for you at least a little bit.
• 40:27
  But yeah, raising a kid and also being pregnant is, or trying to get pregnant is a whole other ball of wax than when you're, like...
• 40:35
  It's a little- I love how you mentioned the logistics of it though too, just like the flat out- [laughs]... day-to-day stuff. Again, like once you have a kid where, you know, my...
• 40:42
  I remember one of my kids at one point, again, they get it. We've told them. They're fucking test tube kids. You, you're welcome.
• 40:47
  But I remember one put, they're like, "Oh," and, but, you know, and the doctor like, you know, come to the house and do the shots. I'm like, "Let me stop you. All the ways you're wrong about that."
• 40:56
  I was like, "You were made in like a closet-" Yeah... "on the side of La Cienega that we were late for every time because of this kid-" Mm-hmm. "... and this fucking traffic, and this..." Like, none of the...
• 41:05
  And then mom, and then they're like, "Congratulations. It implanted. You're on bed rest for two months, you know, or else it's not gonna work." Wow. And you're just like- Yeah... "Okay, I guess I win?" What the fuck?
• 41:15
  It's just, it's crazy. But you, but- It's so trippy... I really do believe if you don't continue telling that, one, I, I don't think it will necessarily scare people off who really want- Mm-hmm...
• 41:25
  and are able to do this if they have insurance or not or whatever it is. But the, the... Claire, it's, you know, parenting your parents.
• 41:33
  N- no one told us about that part, and no one tells you about all that crazy logistical stuff. And while the emotions are raging, and most of the time they're involved with disappointment. Like, you have to- Yeah...
• 41:44
  lay it out for people, you know? 'Cause if you're incredibly lucky and privileged in a lot of ways, there's, you know, a little violet on the other side, like rearranging your priorities.
• 41:53
  I- And that's the greatest thing, and then sometimes you're just still, "How? What happened here? I don't understand." Yeah. This.
• 41:59
  The hard thing about, I think, between one and two or two and three is like, you get so... You just have this one kid to base it on, and I remember being like, "What if the second kid sucks?"
• 42:08
  Like we, there's no way he can compare. And you know what? He does suck in his own way. Also, like, he's really... People get a huge kick out of him. I'm glad that other people enjoy him very much. People- Yeah...
• 42:20
  like the story about him being an asshole to me about books a couple, couple podcasts ago. But I...
• 42:25
  One thing a friend told me that I had never beenIn my, like this perspective before was that she had a miscarriage between pregnancies and this may sound flippant or not, but of course your first instinct is like the tragedy of it.
• 42:37
  And she said, "Actually- Mm-hmm... I'm more annoyed that we have to start all over again. We, after, you know, we had this all going." And I was like, that's never- Yeah...
• 42:44
  not something I had considered before, in addition to the sadness and the loss, just like starting the clock, starting the whole process all over again. Mm-hmm.
• 42:51
  Because it, you know, it's like I've had kidney stones a bunch of times, and people are always like, "What's it like?"
• 42:55
  I'm like, "It's, uh, yeah, apparently it's like having a baby, except it's like an asteroid and you don't get a fucking baby at the end." Like you said, you're restarting the clock- That's-... which never ends- Mm...
• 43:04
  by the way. Now you have a baby to deal with. But at the same time it is, you look up and you go, "Oh, wait. The, the clock's back like a, a year effectively." Like, it's the whole thing.
• 43:13
  And I'm such a planner that like... And of course, nothing in IVF ever goes according to plan, so it's also very humbling in that regard.
• 43:21
  And I've had to learn a lot through therapy and Zoloft about releasing control and, you know, just trusting that what will be will be, and it is so hard. So hard.
• 43:36
  And I was telling a colleague the other day, 'cause I thought I learned this lesson, you know, the first time around when we had Violet, and now it's, the universe is testing me in a different way.
• 43:45
  But yeah, it's just kind of you're all over the place, and I want so desperately, like I, I also want her to have a little sister, selfishly, because I have a little sister and she's my best friend.
• 44:00
  And just be like, you know, so cute. But yeah, the just like all of that is just out of your hands, out of your control.
• 44:07
  It's like a type A person's worst nightmare is IVF because even with the retrieval last week, I was supposed to be back in Maryland for the AWP Writing Conference and also reading my children's book, the Amanda Gorman book, at my hometown library for story time.
• 44:25
  And it was looking for a while like the retrieval would be after that trip. But then of course it was like, "Nope, actually it's gonna be on Friday." I had to cancel everything.
• 44:35
  Was just so annoyed because this also had happened in March 2020 when we started IVF. I was supposed to go home for a trip, and then it was like, "Nope, actually this is when the retrieval's gonna be."
• 44:47
  And it's just like, you can't... You don't even have control over like your calendar, and it just makes you feel so helpless and at the whim and mercy of your body.
• 44:58
  And I feel like there may be some people like, "Well, couldn't you just resched?" No, because everything is based on how your body responds. Right. Basically, yeah.
• 45:04
  And then speaking to ticking clocks, then they're just like, "All right, we've got two. Would you like to put them in at 6:00 AM tomorrow morning?"
• 45:10
  And you're like, "Oh, this thing we've been working towards, and now I got... Hold on." It's like you said, type A personality. I'm thankful I'm not- Absolutely...
• 45:15
  but I think back to all the shit my wife had to miss, whether it was just like, "You're not allowed to fly. You gotta be on your back. You gotta be on this and this." And that's when it's working. Mm. Right. Exactly.
• 45:25
  Yeah. It's crazy. Tell me, both you guys, 'cause L'Oreal, you, I mean, we, uh, as we have established, you've got a lot going on, and writing a book, especially a second...
• 45:36
  I mean, a second book is kinda like a second child, like, where- Mm-hmm...
• 45:39
  the first one you spent your whole life dreaming about it and putting all your life into it, and then, and it's here, and then the, the next one you're like, "I, I guess I gotta pull something together for this next one."
• 45:50
  For both you guys, what were resources out there that you either found helpful, either in terms of just like media or how to, or things that you really think missed the mark that...
• 45:59
  Like, 'cause I'm just curious, like, what, what you guys liked, found helpful, and then also, L'Oreal, what was not there that inspired you to contribute something to the library of IVF?
• 46:07
  I mean, I feel like I can answer the second one first. Okay. And I just always go back to the Toni Morrison quote about, "If there's a book you wanna read that hasn't been written yet, you have to write it."
• 46:16
  And so much of infertility is white. Same with the wellness, like a lot...
• 46:22
  So you Google yoga teacher, and it's gonna be some thin, white, blonde lady, even though that's not where yoga originated, that's not, you know, what it's rooted in.
• 46:29
  And so there, in that same way, I remember when we were going through it, and I feel like now there are more diverse resources, but when I first started, all of the fertility groups were basically white women.
• 46:43
  All of the resource that you see.
• 46:44
  You go into the fertility clinic, and the little, like, bulletin board of, like, success essentially, you know, there were no Black or brown babies to be found right in this, like- All the Christmas cards. Um, yeah.
• 46:57
  Exactly that. Those questions. And it's just like, where do we fit in here? We're the only Black couple in here. This isn't something that people have done in either of our families, right?
• 47:08
  So then you have the stigma culturally because it's, well, that's not something we do. Or, you know, the other stereotype about Black women being super fertile. And it's like, well, the, n- nope, not true in my case.
• 47:19
  And yeah, just wanting to honestly write, like, a love letter to that version of myself and then also women who have reached out to me.
• 47:28
  I mean, the DM or, yeah, the story I get the most DMs about is the, one of the first ones I wrote for Self about, like, lessons I had learned after four failed embryo transfers.
• 47:37
  And I can imagine that, like, someone's Googling two, 3:00 in the morning after a failed transfer themselves.
• 47:44
  They find the article, they look me up, they find me on Instagram, they see Violet, and they're like, "Oh my gosh," like, "You kept going," like, "It worked."
• 47:52
  And so just wanting to provide not only that, you know, sliver of hope, but also the real shit about how, you know, getting a positive pregnancy isn't the end of a finish line.
• 48:04
  About perinatal depression, even because there's so much focus on postpartum that I, like, naively didn't even consider, like, you could be depressed while pregnant.
• 48:12
  And the PTSD of it all with infertility and the, the mental health kind of component. I mean, I failed... Well, I should reframe 'cause my therapist is trying to get me to, uh, she's, "You can't fail."
• 48:21
  But the, you know, postpartum depression screening they do in the hospital, I did not score very well. That's, again, the type A, straight A student in me.
• 48:31
  And, but I told the social worker, I was like, "You know, it's fine. It's okay." Like, "I'm gonna double up on therapy. It's totally fine. I have a plan," but I couldn't therapy my way out of this.
• 48:40
  And at the six-week follow-up, I failed again. And the OB was like-You know, I can give you something for this." And I was like, "Oh no, you know, it's okay.
• 48:48
  I'm in therapy," because, like, at the same time, plot twist, we're still living with my in-laws in Ohio because we thought that moving to Ohio in the middle of a global pandemic was a good idea.
• 49:00
  But just I tended to move to Columbus, housing market is trash, and so I'm living with my in-laws while pregnant and then also postpartum, and so that anxiety, and again the cultural stigma around, you know, that's not something we do or you don't need that.
• 49:13
  You know, it's gonna hurt the baby 'cause you're still breastfeeding. And so went two more years being this hot, anxious mess before finally saying yes to the Zoloft and wanting to talk about that openly because...
• 49:26
  And once I did, it was like, oh my gosh, like all my mom friends are on some kind of medication, which I feel like just- Oh yeah. Once you start asking, mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 49:36
  So yeah, just wanting to write that book, be a beacon of light, hope, but also like reality. And then as far as resources in writing... Wait, was it resources in writing or like resources in fertility?
• 49:48
  I forgot the question. Oh, just whatever, anything that you found either helpful or d- like coldly unhelpful as a resource when you were going through it.
• 49:55
  Like what, you know, if there's anything that you would recommend to other people that was out there besides what you are creating.
• 50:00
  There is, 'cause I also taught yoga for fertility at Pulling Down the Moon here in the Chicagoland area.
• 50:06
  And so also as a certified yoga instructor, the melding of those two worlds was very, actually a gift, honestly, to be able to hold space for these women who are going through something so difficult.
• 50:18
  And I think, you know, four of the ones in my original cohort did go on to have kids. So to feel like you played like a tiny bit of role in that or, you know, were able...
• 50:26
  It was more of a support group than a yoga class, honestly. There was just like a little bit- Mm... of yoga at the end, and so that was really helpful.
• 50:33
  But what I advocated for while I was there was like, this is great and all, and still kind of like inaccessible to most people. You know, like six sessions is like 200 something dollars.
• 50:45
  And again, it's just full of white women. There were some Southeast Asian ones.
• 50:50
  But then when we joined forces with this fertility clinic in Atlanta and started an app and now we're like more virtual, I advocated for one of those yoga for fertility classes specifically for women of color because of just the experience is so different.
• 51:08
  There is that cultural element to it too, and just to have a safe space for us to talk about that. And actually in communication with two of the women who are in that group still, we have our little like IVF group chat.
• 51:21
  One just had her baby, the other one is unfortunately on her like fifth IUI, I think.
• 51:26
  But as I'm writing this book, I'm thinking of them and what I would've wanted to know back then, and then just the resources that are available to, yeah, hopefully make the journey easier for someone else. That's great.
• 51:39
  And I know they have yoga groups like that for like postpartum women, and I didn't join a, find a group like that. I think I kind of made mine online basically, but like having those touchstones is so important.
• 51:50
  And I just wanna give a shout-out also to Zoloft on my end. I'm, first of all, I'm thrilled that postpartum survey actually did something and flagged somebody like the way it's supposed to do. Yeah.
• 51:59
  'Cause thank God, I feel like I hear so much about it not doing shit. But when I was pregnant with James, my second one, my therapist clocked me for being depressed. And it also was weird 'cause you're like,
• 52:10
  I don't know, you're like, "I can't be depressed and pregnant at the same time." And she had me- Right... yeah, she had me start the day after he was born.
• 52:17
  I remember like g- I got a sleeping pill that night, and the next day I woke up and, 'cause I asked them not to bring the baby to me, and I, but I got my sleeping pill, had my night of sleep, then they brought me my antidepressants.
• 52:28
  [laughs] Like it was very literally transformative, you know- Yeah... twelve hours though. But Quinn, how about you guys? Tell, was there anything that you guys found either
• 52:36
  helpful or enjoyable or frankly absolutely unhelpful when you guys were going through IVF stuff in terms of knowledge or support, things like that?
• 52:45
  A universal experience for everyone who goes through it, but two very different experiences between myself and L'Oreal. I'm the guy here in this situation, straight, white. We had money to keep doing it.
• 52:57
  We spent all of it, to be clear, and then had to [laughs] figure out how to then afford the kids we made in Los Angeles. So that was- Ooh... an adventure. That was fun. We left eventually. Mm.
• 53:07
  But also a different experience 'cause truly it was 15 years ago. Like there, a lot has changed and a lot hasn't.
• 53:12
  I always talk about, there's a author, her name is Kat Bohannon, and she wrote this really great book called Eve: How the Female Body Drove 250 Million Years of Evolution. Mm-hmm.
• 53:20
  It's fantastic, and it's actually much funnier than you'd think it'd be, and she's great. I had her on the show too.
• 53:24
  But she makes this point that I think people are aware of but not like in context, which is Homo sapiens is like tragically relatively bad at pregnancy and especially delivery compared to even like chimps, our closest- Close mammals.
• 53:40
  Like- Mm-hmm... the trade-offs we made to, or have made it a disaster. Even now- Yeah...
• 53:45
  with all this technology and all this, again in the 15 years, so they used to have to, and I think it's possibly different now, they can do a blood test for some of the chromosome stuff.
• 53:54
  They used to have to pierce the embryo for some of this stuff. Mm-hmm. And they were like, "Trade-off is we might, you know, send it packing when we pierce this thing.
• 54:04
  We're not, probably not, but there's no guarantee here, and we can't find everything, this and that." I mean- Mm-hmm... some real changes for sure, but either way, again, like you said, there's no finish line.
• 54:16
  You know, you're obviously- Mm-hmm... we certainly got to the point, and we try to be this way as well and with a world like this, where we celebrate every positive milestone where we can. Mm-hmm. But I don't know.
• 54:27
  I've already said the most unhelpful people were, they were probably good-natured and well-intentioned people who were like, "You guys should take a trip and have some wine and relax." Yeah.
• 54:38
  I think there's probably a world where you could be a little more considerate and think about what you're putting out there for folks. Maybe they've already tried that. Maybe that's- Mm-hmm...
• 54:45
  even insensitive, but-We had a good group. I mean, my wife is a very proud workaholic. She-- I remember vividly her opening her laptop on our honeymoon, and I was like, "Fascinating. Very interesting." Oh.
• 54:58
  And she delivered our first kid. It was fucking brutal, like I said, and then we're in the hospital for a week or two afterwards and all this stuff, and she went back to work, like, two weeks later.
• 55:07
  She was running a TV show. Oh. And she both wanted to but also had to. The network she was working for finally agreed to back up a trailer so that she could,
• 55:19
  you know, breastfeed the kid, which she really wanted to do, which not everybody has to. Formula is fucking amazing. That was more difficult than it should've been.
• 55:26
  All the-- all of these things that I will hopefully continue to push for everything in sort of m-my other work.
• 55:33
  There is a very intentional and destructive hole around w-women's health consideration and welfare and research that is centuries and decades old and still going on in a lot of ways.
• 55:45
  Like, even endometriosis, you know, the amount of money that goes into researching that is, is nothing. Or fibroids, right? I mean, it was crazy. Mm-hmm.
• 55:52
  So as usual, this is one of my meandering answers of I don't know what I would find helpful because I have it as easy as someone could have had it and would have it if I tried again.
• 56:01
  So I would like to hope that the society and culture and infrastructure around it becomes drastically easier whether you can make a baby on the first try or not. Because here's the thing, a lot of people end up with not.
• 56:13
  Mm-hmm. It's really hard. It's really hard. Or you can't afford it, or you can't afford to even try in the first place. Yeah. You're like, "Why would I even bother to do this?"
• 56:20
  And there's a real certain amount of support those folks need as well to realize they can't do that. You gotta deal with that. You know, it's hard. Like, the Reddit threads that are...
• 56:29
  It's like one and done and not by choice that I'm, like, poking my head in every so often because, you know, my anxiety likes to plan for the worst case scenario. [chuckles] Yeah.
• 56:39
  And so yeah, that, and like you said too, just the affording a kid in 2026 or then multiple, and it's like, what are we gonna do?
• 56:48
  And I'm still, you know, an entrepreneur, and, you know, like, it's not quite Los Angeles expensive, but, like, Chicago, Evanston is not cheap either. And so just, like, the reality of all that and what do we do?
• 57:00
  Is this selfish also given that the world is on fire?
• 57:03
  And, like, all of these things to consider, which my therapist is like, "Okay, you know, A, calm down, [chuckles] breathe, and then two, you know, like, we need the good people to put more good back into the world, and we just, you know, do the best that we can to make it better for
• 57:18
  our kids and the community and, you know, all of the people coming after us." But, you know, someone certainly isn't making it easy these days. And I just remember crying literally the day after the 2024 election.
• 57:32
  I mean, I didn't have kids back in 2016, but still devastated, but this was, like, a different kind of devastation.
• 57:38
  And I had the, like, the thankfully older man at the reception desk at my daughter's preschool was just, like, breathing.
• 57:47
  He has a child who, you know, we've had parented through that first term and everything, and it was just like, you know, the power is at home. We're the ones educating our kids.
• 57:57
  We're the ones kind of on the front lines, and, you know, we'll do what we need to do.
• 58:01
  So if that's running for office, if it's, you know, joining the PTA, if it's, you know, whatever that little bit of, like, activism looks like in your
• 58:10
  neck of the woods, but then also remembering that this too shall pass. Our ancestors- Yeah... lived through much worse. And so not to be completely hopeless. And that's, yeah, been helpful.
• 58:22
  And you are doing that by having your place. And I just wanna say a cute story that just was so heartwarming. L'Oreal...
• 58:29
  So we list events from her bookstore in Raising Evanston, the newsletter that I edit, and L'Oreal writes for the newsletter as well sometimes.
• 58:36
  And she sat in with her daughter, who had seen Azura's Place event in the newsletter, and her daughter interviews Black business about what they love about business owners.
• 58:46
  And then we ran the piece, and the mom was just texting me all these wonderful glowing things. And it was just such a, like, a sweet, organic- Mm-hmm... you know, like, circle of community.
• 58:56
  But regarding kind of between the places that live of logistics, your favorite, and community- Mm-hmm... I'm just curious some things you've learned about throwing events at your bookstore that you would...
• 59:07
  If someone, if you were to speak to someone else opening their own little bookstore like yours and they were hosting events, what's something- Yeah...
• 59:13
  that you've learned about dos and don'ts about throwing something like that's kid-friendly? Sorry. Are the ev- Did you always wanna do events, and do you find as the business owner that they are necessary?
• 59:24
  And then put Claire's questions on top of that. Yeah. No, definitely necessary, especially, you know, as Claire mentioned, we are kind of off the beaten path in Evanston. Okay.
• 59:33
  So not a lot of organic foot traffic, so events are the way to bring people in.
• 59:38
  And then again, selfishly, I mean, I'm someone that just builds the things that I want to see, you know, with my books and then also the bookstore.
• 59:45
  And so many of the story times that are during the day when, you know, she's at daycare and I'm at school, and it's like, what about, you know, the parents who work and can't do that?
• 59:56
  And so having the weekend ones, bringing in the authors, and having that specifically. I didn't share this deliberately at the...
• 1:00:04
  not deliberately, but, like, beginning, but all, like, 99.9% of our books are by Black women authors.
• 1:00:11
  There's a few by Black men in the children's section specifically because I want our young boys to have representation as well.
• 1:00:17
  But all of the books face out so that they can see themselves on the covers in the, you know, in the pages. They're at their level, so they have some, you know, autonomy over which books they want to pick out and read.
• 1:00:30
  But then having the authors in so that they can see, okay, not only is this book about a Black child, but now there's this Black author who, you know, that's a career path or something that maybe I might be interested in doing.
• 1:00:43
  That's honestly, selfishly for me too, been the best part about having my children's book and going to different schools and just answering their questions. I mean, some of them are like, "How old are you?"Well, 38.
• 1:00:55
  Well, I'm like, okay, it's not that old, but, you know, if I'm five, I guess that would be two. And then, yeah, having, you know, we've had one open mic so far. I wanna have more.
• 1:01:05
  I have some writing circles here, again, selfishly because I needed to work on them more. I kind of overdid it in February with the events.
• 1:01:13
  Like, I feel like a good sweet spot is four to six events a month because it's just me in here. Last month we had about 12, and someone was like, "Oh, for Black History Month?"
• 1:01:24
  And I was like, "That was just on accident." Every day is Black History Month in here, Women's History Month, you know, all those things.
• 1:01:31
  And on the one hand, it was a super profitable month, and on the other hand, I was burnt all the way out. So I'm still trying to find that, like, happy medium. But yeah, it's...
• 1:01:42
  I'm very much in my throw spaghetti at a wall era and see what sticks, what resonates with people, what they wanna see.
• 1:01:49
  And then, yeah, just programming for our kids especially, families, just, like, something free and fun you can do because there's not, like, a ton of that out in the world.
• 1:01:58
  Wanna start doing, like, some family yoga and story time, some, like, crafternoons sort of things. Just again, yeah, trying to meet the community where it's at.
• 1:02:07
  I'm glad you brought up the point of doing it while a-acknowledging again, like, the lesson of, well, parents are working. Like, when am I gonna... Like, no one considers that for anything ever. Ever.
• 1:02:18
  A-and whether it's your HOA meeting, city council, or whatever, it is explicitly designed for 65 to 75-year-olds to be able to attend. Yeah. And th-that's where we are, you know?
• 1:02:29
  Any of your favorite events from the past six months, like, three months, whether it's, like, a format or a specific author or kind of book where you're like- Yeah... that was meaningful to me because
• 1:02:42
  this is my bookstore or, and/or it really worked out. Yeah. There's a picture from one of our very...
• 1:02:49
  I don't know if it was the first official story time that we had, 'cause we had a few pop-ups before we actually opened, and I forget who it was.
• 1:02:56
  I think it might've been one of Violet's friend's parents or something who took the picture. The bookstore is packed. I'm sitting on the sofa with the book we're reading.
• 1:03:06
  Violet and her friends are also on the sofa, [chuckles] and it's just... It looks like... And there's two moms talking in the corner, and it's just, this is what it's all about.
• 1:03:13
  It's that community aspect to it, bringing people, different walks of life together, the children being able to run wild and free.
• 1:03:22
  There's a little station by the book section, the children's section, that has little, you know, abacus, and I print out some coloring pages for them.
• 1:03:29
  There's crayons, there's building blocks, so that even on a random Tuesday afternoon, someone comes in with their kid, they can be entertained while they're growing up, they're shopping.
• 1:03:38
  There was a baby in here the other day who almost took their first steps, and I was like, [chuckles] just- Oh, I would, I would be so excited... so adorable.
• 1:03:45
  I remember the first pop-up story time that we had, 'cause I think in my mind too, I was just like, "Evanston doesn't have any Black-owned bookstores.
• 1:03:52
  I'm gonna open a Black-owned bookstore," and was so, like, focused on our, you know, like, city lines and everything. And there was a mom who came in from Gurnee, which I'm still not entirely sure where that is.
• 1:04:06
  Um, right. It's near Great America. It's far away. Okay.
• 1:04:09
  So yeah, it was, like, not close, and I didn't know this until later, but one of the investors who we had open house at the wellness collective was coming in for a tour and talking to other people and was like, "Yeah, I meant to tell you, after that story time, I was in the parking lot, and I saw that mom, and she had two daughters, two little Black girls, and she had asked them, like, 'Okay, do you know why I brought you out here today?'"
• 1:04:28
  And I think the littlest one was like, "It's story time." And she was like, "Well, yes, and I also wanted you to see what's possible when you, like, dream big and work hard." And that just- You overheard that?
• 1:04:41
  No, but someone else overheard it and then told me, and I- Still counts. That-... tears. Immediate tears. Yeah. 'Cause I'm just like- You did it. That's what it's all about.
• 1:04:50
  And then author events, I have so many, well, formerly Twitter friends, RIP, we've since, you know, moved on to other platforms, who have books coming out. And one of them, her book is all about Black women and wellness.
• 1:05:02
  So in addition to being the bookstore, but I've seen in the wellness collective, like, they go hand in hand. Mm-hmm. And having these...
• 1:05:08
  This happened in a couple of our different author events, but, like, intergenerational conversations among Black women, so you can have a 25-year-old and a 65-year-old and a 75-year-old in the same setting sharing their stories.
• 1:05:22
  We're all crying. We're all just, like- Sure... learning so much from each other, and it's that...
• 1:05:29
  When I look out into the audience in those instances where I'm, like, serving as the conversation partner as well, I'm like, "This is what it's all about. This is what I wanted.
• 1:05:39
  This is what I dreamed of," and just, like, the ripple effect hopefully that it'll have. I mean, I've had senior women from Oak Park, like in their 60s, coming in here and being... and thanking me for opening this space.
• 1:05:51
  And I'm like, "Well, thank you for paving the, you know, the way and just being, like, at the forefront."
• 1:05:58
  And then actually one of my favorite ones might be Glennet Turner Tilley, who is local to Wheaton, maybe about an hour or so from Evanston. She had left a message and said, "I'm this," you know, 92 or 94, right?
• 1:06:12
  I can't remember how old she is. But she's written different books, and she had a Harriet Tubman book coming out, a children's book, and asked me if I was willing to partner with her for a virtual book launch of sorts.
• 1:06:22
  And I posted it on Threads 'cause I was just like, "Oh my gosh, this woman is gold," because I wanna be in my 90s, you know, still putting out books and doing events. And it was just...
• 1:06:34
  I feel like I was interviewing a future version of myself in talking to her, and she was so grateful, but I was grateful to her.
• 1:06:43
  And, like, she had ch- not ch- she has children, yes, but, like, the children of the kids that she taught and their grandch- like, everyone was on this Zoom call, and it was just- Aww...
• 1:06:54
  so beautiful to witness.That's great Look at what you did I love to hear that That's incredible If people are in Evanston or nearby who are listening, are they able to order books online and then go pick them up at Zora's Place if they wanted to get the next Dog Man book or whatever?
• 1:07:07
  Or anything else Yeah, we do take special orders. So books that aren't on our shelves, they can certainly special order, and when they come in, they can pick them up from the store.
• 1:07:14
  And for people who don't, you know, necessarily wanna come in or don't live nearby, we do have a bookshop.org storefront where we still get a percentage of the sales as well, so that's another option. Okay, that's great.
• 1:07:27
  Can I ask you guys a completely unrelated question that has nothing to do with books or children or getting pregnant or anything like that? Can't wait. I'll like- This sounds like what my children ask me.
• 1:07:37
  Um Well, I texted you about this, Quinn, earlier, but L'Oreal, maybe you have a perspective on this as well, about food.
• 1:07:43
  I, I don't know if you have noticed this based on the stores where you do grocery shopping, but the compostable produce bags are not it for me right now.
• 1:07:52
  I was just cutting up some really rubbery celery, and I'm just wondering what you guys are doing for food storage right now when it comes to produce in your fridge, when it comes to, like, leafy greens or things that have to stay crisp.
• 1:08:02
  I forgot about that text. I... M- my first instinct is we've had this fridge for 10 years, and I don't know or trust why the crisper drawer works as well as it does. Whoa.
• 1:08:13
  Things stay fresher much longer than they should. Okay. It's very unclear to me. I don't put them in bags. I pick them up from their store. I try not to use the little fucking plastic bags anymore.
• 1:08:22
  I put them in the drawer. Yeah. And I go back out a week later, I'm like, "Oh, these collards have been out here. They look perfect. This is great. I'll make them." Yeah. Unclear to me, the magic.
• 1:08:31
  So I wish I had a better answer for you. Okay. I'm not doing anything on purpose. Maybe the compost- compostable bags are doing harm. I don't know. L'Oreal, have you experienced the same? I do not.
• 1:08:40
  As you asked that, I was like, probably should be eating more leafy greens. We're- That is not what this show is about, please That is a show- Oh, right...
• 1:08:47
  we actually get everyone on to make them figure out what they're not eating enough of. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No. But- We're a big fruit family. That was something no one told me, like the fruit budget for having...
• 1:08:56
  And I love fruit anyway. That was like my one craving when I was pregnant. But now, like Violet and I on our own will go through a box of the three-pound grapes from Sam's Club in a week. Mm.
• 1:09:06
  Every week I need to go on our, like, grape and apple run. A shout-out to their grapes- Mm-hmm... because they are so crunchy, and a good crunchy grape is hard to find. Yeah. Trader Joe's- Trader Joe's is hit or miss...
• 1:09:18
  they're purple. Yeah. Yeah, they're consistently crunchy. Wait, are they green or purple that you guys prefer? Green. Okay. The green ones. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:09:24
  That is the one thing that you can't trust, like a shopper, you know, if you're doing grocery pickup to do is, like, they... Yeah, you have to squeeze those grapes and make sure it's, like, a good, firm- Mm-hmm...
• 1:09:32
  crispy grape. Otherwise, it's just garbage. But, you know, when you have a kid that's eating fruit, you have a kid that's pooping, and that is, like, a win. That's it. That's 70%- That's true...
• 1:09:40
  of tummy troubles right there. It's just, doctor's like, "When was the last time you pooped?" They're like, "I don't know, October," and that, you know, well, there's your answer. Go home and- Yeah... have an apple.
• 1:09:49
  Yeah. Paul's eating goodies right now, which I'm pleased about, like that he's doing it of his own accord. We have a... You know, he's also in the land of floofing his hair up.
• 1:09:57
  There's a lot of this going on right now, but also he's segmenting oranges. I'll, I'll- The fight we have, fights we have about hair are never ending.
• 1:10:06
  Uh, anyway, we'll save that for another time, but L'Oreal, anything else you wanna mention, plug, promote, that we didn't cover?
• 1:10:12
  I think, you know, we need to let you go and tend to your customers and have lunch and eat the good grapes and things like that. All the things. Yeah, no, if you're in the area, definitely stop by. Yeah.
• 1:10:20
  We're open Tuesday through Saturday, 11:00 to 5:00. Yeah. All the info on events and everything's on zorasplace.com. We're on Instagram primarily @zorasplace, and yeah, come out- Yeah... support, share, tell a friend,
• 1:10:33
  um, things. We'll tell everyone. Yeah. Quinn, anything before we say goodbye for today? Nobody. Nobody cares what they say. But thank you, though. No. I appreciate it. No, we don't. No.
• 1:10:42
  You can't spell meandering without man or men, so- Perfect. Perfect. [upbeat music] That's it for this week.
• 1:11:00
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