Latest / Unspoken Career Truths / Perfect Doesn’t Exist, So Why Are We Chasing It?

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Perfect Doesn’t Exist, So Why Are We Chasing It? · Unspoken Career Truths

• 0:00
  Welcome to unspoken career truths.
• 0:02
  I'm Cara Wood. And I'm Lauren Levac Gilbert.
• 0:05
  And we're here to be the Co workers you can trust.
• 0:09
  Hey Cara, how's it going? Good.
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  How are you, Lauren? I'm.
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  Good. I'm ready to dive into our topic
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  today and I think a lot of people can relate to it.
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  Perfectionism Dun Dun Dun. And the official definition is a
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  personality trait characterized by a relentless drive for
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  flawlessness. Wow, that's hard to say.
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  Setting excessively high standards and engaging in harsh,
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  harsh self evaluation. Carl, I really appreciate that
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  you embrace the non perfectionism in order to define
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  perfectionism. Yeah, I couldn't.
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  Say like 3 words it's. OK, to mispronounce.
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  No one's perfect. Yes, 100%.
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  So does that, do you relate to perfectionism in any way, Cara?
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  Does the definition kind of resonate to you?
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  Well, I absolutely relate to perfectionism.
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  I have incredibly high standards and overtime have had to sort of
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  recognize the difference between having high standards, holding
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  yourself to an impossible standard, and then what reality
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  actually looks like When it comes to perfectionism.
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  One of the things I think about a lot is William Goldman, the
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  author people will know him from.
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  Princess Bride used to say that every writer that you love is
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  the writer that made you want to be a writer, and you will never
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  be as good as those writers in your own mind.
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  Life is about the journey. 100% life is about the journey and I
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  agree with you in terms of kind of like how I've related to
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  perfectionism over time. It's definitely something that I
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  struggled with way more earlier in my career.
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  And I think I've also come to the realization that, like you
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  also can't hold everyone to the same standards as yourself and
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  maybe you should give yourself a little grace.
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  It also takes a lot of energy, like it's a big energy dream to
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  kind of like constantly evaluate or make sure that everything's
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  working out or. Yes, I think what I think of as
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  the productive part of it can be a selective perfectionism.
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  So choose the things that you want to put that much energy
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  into. Yeah, no, I think that's a great
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  point. And it perfectionism can look
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  like many different things, right?
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  There's not like one-size-fits-all for this.
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  It could be being super detail oriented, having high standards,
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  like we talked about caring about your work so much and like
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  just fully giving into it and not not setting boundaries.
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  So there's a lot of different ways that perfectionism could
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  look like. And as you're listening, think
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  about like, are there areas where you are kind of leaning
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  into it? And we'll talk about how there's
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  positives and negatives to it, but it can come in many
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  different forms. And I find that it's just super
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  validating to hear that. Also, like most of the
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  population deals with some level of perfectionism.
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  Around 2 in five people say they struggle with it at work or at
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  school, and 25 to 30% of people show elevated perfectionist
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  traits. And this is where I actually
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  think it got really interesting. I was like looking at a bunch of
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  data and analysis and found that perfectionism has increased
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  significantly since the 1980s, especially among college
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  students. And that one car like, hit me
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  because I feel like we have all been under a massive amount of
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  stress in so many different ways.
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  But like, in terms of what you deliver, the kind of work you
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  do, what your expectations are, it just feels like it's gotten
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  more and more and more overtime. I don't know if you feel the
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  same. Way it's interesting.
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  Well, I was trying to think about why the 80s and I think of
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  greed or American Psycho where suddenly people felt like
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  there's only, it's all about wealth.
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  It's all about just amassing what you can and building your
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  own image and persona. And that's only increased since
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  social media has come onto the scene.
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  And so I guess that does make sense in terms of earmarker for
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  when folks would feel like I need to be perfect because it's
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  also that time. Like, I think there is this
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  trend now for people to like act like a brand.
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  And the 80s was sort of also that moment if you think about
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  kind of how you're presenting yourself.
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  I think that's a great point. I also think, and we've talked
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  about this on like a wisdom under fire, like the hustle
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  culture is very real. And I think there's like an
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  expectation with the hustle culture that it's like you have
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  to be perfect. You have to have it all
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  together. And social media, to your point,
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  makes you compare yourself to other people and say, well, I'm
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  not doing that or why are they doing this?
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  Or like theirs looks better than mine.
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  And it's always a good reminder to realize that you see only the
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  good stuff on social media. But it has created this culture,
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  I think, of comparison which like adds this level of
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  pressure. Yeah.
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  And for the women listening, that would be about 10 years
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  into when women were joining the workforce with this idea of
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  having it all right, this idea that you should have, you should
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  be both the perfect housewife mother as well as the perfect
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  employee. Like I think about the 80s
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  movies Working Girl and Polly Gennaro and Die Hard.
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  Sort of like just owning the boardroom.
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  I saw something the other day, I think it was actually on
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  Instagram and it said you can't eat healthy, drink water,
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  exercise, stretch, work 9:00 to 5:00, journal, meditate, like
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  and do all of these things. You just can't do it all.
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  Like it's just not. We've like created this culture
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  where that's like, possible and it's just not.
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  And I think that gets back to what your definition of perfect
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  is really matters and who you're letting set that definition like
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  you already talked about, hey, social media isn't real.
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  But if you're setting that definition for yourself, that
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  what other people are doing or posting about on social media
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  seems like a perfect life, and then what you're actually trying
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  to do is this impossible thing that can be really stressful and
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  dangerous. I like that.
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  I think defining your, your definition of perfect is also a
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  way to kind of deal with some of the maybe negative side of
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  perfectionism because there is a negative side.
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  But first let's talk about the positive side because there are
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  some positives that come out of it.
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  So in terms of the, the benefits of being a perfectionist, you
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  can deliver incredible results. You can have the best reputation
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  of doing really great work. You can execute Florida State.
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  You can see things that might maybe other people can't see or
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  be more detail oriented. There's a lot of benefits, but
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  it all kind of like everything in life kind of has to be within
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  balance. So there are some positive
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  traits that come out of it. But what?
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  I think all the positive traits you just mentioned are false
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  when it comes to perfectionism. I think they would all fall
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  apart as soon as you made one error.
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  Like you said, executing Florida State.
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  As soon as you make one error, you're no longer someone who
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  executes Florida State. That's not perfect, you're done.
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  So I actually think the list you gave was something that kind of
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  sets people up for, like this idea that I could totally pursue
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  perfectionism under those terms, and as soon as something breaks,
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  it's no longer perfect. I mean, that's a great point.
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  So what do you think are the positives then?
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  A perfectionist. When I think of what I've gained
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  from either being a perfectionist or working with a
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  perfectionist, it's usually getting much better at some sort
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  of skill. So like I've talked before in
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  other episodes where I'm reteaching myself the piano,
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  right now I'm doing a piece that is so complicated, Chopin's
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  Nocturne. For those of you who are
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  listening and know that crazy jazz piece, I am so like poor at
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  it right now that I can't play the left hand and the right hand
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  together yet. If I was holding myself to this
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  execution, like Florida State, that would be a failure.
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  When I sort of channel my old piano instructor, like take it
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  one piece at a time, like can I play the right the right hand
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  side Florida State in this one moment?
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  So when I think of kind of again, how to define
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  perfectionism, it has to be at the level that makes sense for
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  you. You wouldn't expect a
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  kindergartner to start like making masterpieces.
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  But when they write their name, that's so exciting and like you
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  can hold them accountable to doing the letters correctly, you
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  know, until they get them done. And then you can have them write
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  them in cursive, which is the next stage maybe in that.
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  So I guess for me, the positives of perfectionism is having that
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  bar keep raising and also working with someone who's going
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  to hold you accountable to like what good enough is in the stage
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  you're at. I think that makes a ton of
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  sense. I love that that kind of counter
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  argument there. I think the other thing that
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  comes out of it is perfect. It's not attainable.
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  Like they're you're always reaching for something else.
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  Like I think perfect is the wrong word because there's no
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  world where something is perfect.
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  Like there's always more you can do more you can reach higher,
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  you can like change your settings.
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  So actually the word and the concept itself sets you up for
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  for failure. Yeah, you're right it perfect
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  does not like the limit does not exist for mean girl references,
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  but like perfect does not exist, everybody has a different
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  definition of it too. So it's not a definitive thing
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  that you can achieve. So it's better to set
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  expectations, celebrate wins and always keep pushing yourself.
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  But it's like State of perfect that I think we've kind of
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  created and our culture just doesn't exist.
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  Yeah. And I think we're getting to the
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  negative side, like in or in thinking that there is a perfect
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  or like defining your own perfect, having that list that
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  you mentioned of all the things you're going to do in one day,
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  and then realizing these don't add up to a day like that.
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  I'm awake. So all of that is showing us
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  that perfectionism as a concept, I think is in some ways like an
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  insane concept. So how do we redefine it?
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  Because we know that who we still want to hold ourselves to
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  some standard. We still want to have like
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  ambitious ideas and push ourselves.
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  If you think of like the negative side of perfectionism,
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  I think it becomes like stressful and it causes anxiety
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  and it causes overthinking and it can cause burnout.
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  It it affects so many other things because you get so
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  obsessed with being perfect that everything else kind of falls
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  away. Yeah, and I also just want to
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  flag like, sometimes people make really bad health decisions.
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  I'm thinking of looks maxing in particular.
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  And I know that's not work related, but like right now
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  there are plenty of young men who are physically hurting
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  themselves in order to attain a a perfect look.
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  Lauren is making a face because she hasn't heard of looks Maxing
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  but I've never heard. Of this.
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  It's a trend that's happening right now with men where they
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  are like, they'll hammer their jaws so that their jaws become
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  more trisled, for example. They'll like go on crazy diets
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  now people, no matter what your gender orientation is, people go
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  on crazy diets to look a certain way to feel more perfect.
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  So I think it is worth even calling out like you said,
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  anxiety, like people might lose sleep to meet a deadline, people
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  might hurt their health. Well, I also think something
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  like perfectionism has a ripple effect on your life.
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  So what I mean by that is like, let's say you're so honed in on
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  being perfect at work that you spend the majority of time at
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  work and then you spend less time with your family.
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  And over time that can add to distance in your relationships
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  or different relationships with your kids if you have kids.
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  Like it can ripple effect in so many other ways.
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  So for people listening, I would encourage you to say like, if
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  you relate to perfectionism, really take a step back and say
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  what is it affecting outside of just my work?
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  Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that.
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  And it reminds me of something you said earlier, too, around
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  you might be holding other people to a perfectionist
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  standard. And that could be your family
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  members and that could be your team.
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  And then you're affecting the culture of your team.
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  And, you know, we had a whole month on leadership and how to,
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  like, manage better. So you don't want to become the
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  kind of person who's a perfectionist in your own world.
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  And then it's triple trickling out and stressing out your team.
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  I remember this is an example from my career, but I remember I
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  was on a team and there was such attention to detail on
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  PowerPoint slides. Like if you had like a page
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  number that was like incorrectly placed, you would get like kind
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  of a slap on the wrist. And I was like, afraid to like
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  submit PowerPoint decks and I would like check every single
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  deck and like format every single thing.
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  And it was so much energy and time and anxiety because I was
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  like, Oh my God, a page number is out of place.
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  And like, now looking back at it, I can see that like,
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  obviously that was not healthy. And also like that wasn't the
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  proper thing to be focused on, but it was an expectation that
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  was set by a leader. And so it created this
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  environment where we were all like, terrified.
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  Yeah, welcome to most of my career in publishing is
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  absolutely the same way where you don't, you're triple
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  checking something and then you're pouring over it.
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  And then we would look at issues the next Friday, go over all of
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  them in a red pen, know exactly who missed what on what page,
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  like what errors we found because readers would write in
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  with typos too. So totally can relate.
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  And I think tell us your perfectionist nightmare as
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  listeners, because I'm sure there are a lot of other folks
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  that have been held to that kind of standard.
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  I actually think it's quite an interesting topic when you're
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  thinking about AI. And the reason why I bring that
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  up is because AI actually likes mistakes because it shows that
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  you're human. And I think that's a very
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  interesting pivot to how we're thinking about things, right?
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  Because like you do check for spelling errors and obviously
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  you don't want to misspell something and you don't want it
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  to look not polished. But at the same time, there's
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  now difficulty in knowing like what's AI generated, what's not.
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  So I, I, as you were saying that, I was thinking about that
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  car. And I think it's quite
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  interesting to say like we're human and we make mistakes and
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  that defines us as humans. And that's OK.
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  It's kind of what I'm trying to get at.
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  Well, and you're and you're right, like if I think about now
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  the campaigns that are resonating with people, for
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  example, or the moments in time that are resonating with people,
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  it's like this these human things that could only possibly
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  be human. Are these like very emotional
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  moments, like when someone breaks down, when someone
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  stutters like those kinds of things like signal humanity.
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  I know people who right now they're very stressed out about
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  what's the right number of errors that I should make or let
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  me like stop using an M dash altogether because AI overuses
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  it. And I want to show that I'm and
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  I don't think introducing errors on purpose or like allowing
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  yourself some errors is the right way to go with it.
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  But I do think thinking about the ways to inject an empathy
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  that AI can't replicate is the way to go about that.
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  And back to the whole point of this topic, which is those
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  feelings and those like empathetic human feelings are
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  never perfect. They're always messy.
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  And that's what intrigues us and makes them interesting.
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  Humans are messy, and that's our good parts.
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  Yeah, exactly. So let's just throw out
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  perfectionism all together. I.
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  Love it, let's do it, it's official.
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  We mentioned this a little bit already, but like I challenge
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  everyone to just reframe it instead of focusing on something
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  being perfect as we know that that's not a reality, be focused
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  on what is the outcome that you're driving?
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  What is the value that you're driving?
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  Like what does success look like and how are you learning and
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  growing? It kind of makes me think of the
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  MVP process in agile minimum viable product, right?
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  So it's like 80% there. You think it's good, you launch
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  it, you get feedback and then you continuously iterate until
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  you get to the final version versus putting out this like
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  perfect final version and then getting all this feedback.
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  I mean like we need to change all this stuff.
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  So it's about that kind of like iterative process.
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  Measuring yourself against yourself is really valuable in
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  this case, Like can only run your own race.
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  You can only compare yourself to your past.
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  And you also have to sort of allow for like the non leg days,
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  like the days that you're not going to be perfect and like the
• 16:38
  recovery days, I guess I should say.
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  Yeah, every. Day is not 100%.
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  Like some days it's OK if you're 10% or like other days they're
• 16:46
  80%, but not every day is the same and you can't have that
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  expectation of you. So some some things to think
• 16:53
  about. One, take a step back and
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  understand where it might be coming from.
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  Talk to other people about it. I always find that to be super,
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  super impactful, like relating to someone else who's going
• 17:03
  through something similar, really being clear on like the
• 17:07
  outcome and the values. Or even like setting a time
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  limit for you and you're working on a project to just kind of
• 17:13
  like check in and if it's a time limiting kind of perfectionism
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  to think about and just like Cara said, defining what it
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  looks like for you and how can you grow and just get better
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  every day? I would.
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  Add to that, I have one secret weapon, which is a friend of
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  mine who always sees the positive side and will give me
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  compliments no matter what. If you have that friend, talk to
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  that friend. Get your own hype woman.
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  That is a really great way to fight perfectionism.
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  And then another one, I think again, we talked about like
• 17:41
  context, but also who's perfect are you going after?
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  Like who set the perfect frame, but someone you admire, they're
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  probably later in their career or they probably like, you know,
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  have been working at this for a little bit longer.
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  So just know that give yourself some grace to like get to their
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  their level. Give yourself.
• 17:57
  Some grace. I know you're you're crushing
• 17:59
  it. You're doing great.
• 18:01
  We think you're all perfect. You're.
• 18:03
  Amazing. Thanks everyone.
• 18:05
  That's a. Wrap thanks for joining us on
• 18:07
  Unspoken Career Truths. Don't forget to follow us on
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  share it with a friend.