Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Instigator for Good | Christopher Heuertz Enneagram Type 8

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Instigator for Good | Christopher Heuertz Enneagram Type 8 · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hi friends, welcome back to the Simply Wholehearted podcast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: It means so much to have you choose to take this conversation along with you today.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Amy Wicks, your host, and here at Simply Wholehearted, we provide perspective, purpose, and plans to help you love God, love others, and live your best life.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: We are traveling through our summer in the Enneagram, and we're stopping to visit and learn a little bit more about the Type 8s.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: While they are always up for a good debate and challenge, they are also some of the most tender-hearted types in the Enneagram.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: By now you know how much I value the insights of the Enneagram, and I believe that this resource will guide you to create your best plan for a full heart life.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Before we dive into this conversation with author Chris Huritz, who wrote Sacred Enneagram, here are some fun and helpful facts about a type 8.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: They are direct, protective, and self-confident.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: They are motivated by the desire to be self-reliant and not dependent on others.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: They also love to uphold just causes and defend what they are passionate about.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: The type 8s like the type 1 are in the gut triad, but they are like the type 3 and 7 in that they are in the assertive stance and also future-oriented.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Here are some great tips to help you get along with the type 8.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Don't gossip about them or betray their trust.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Respect and acknowledge their vulnerability, but don't flatter them.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Understand that when they are expressing their frustrations in an assertive way, don't assume it's a personal attack.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Chris is a first-time guest on this podcast, and I'm thrilled that he was willing to take some time to not only share what life looks like as a type 8, but also some of the intrinsic value of Enneagram, and even some of his strongly held beliefs about how it's being shared in today's culture.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, I have been working with a small group of moms about specific resources and content for the Enneagram in Motherhood.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to share what we're learning with you, and hopefully you'll be hearing more about it this fall.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's awesome.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I felt like I was a forerunner or someone who was just like speaking this weird nonsensical thing about the Enneagram, and everyone would give me kind of that weird look.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: And now, several years later, people are talking about it and it's the thing, and I'm like, I know, see, I wasn't so crazy, but oh yeah, the Enneagram, it's not such this foreign word.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I so I can't figure out what pockets of the country because there's still pockets where it's just not something that's really uh widely known.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I would love to have a 10-hour conversation with you, obviously, because there's so much in that little rant that you gave me that I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to know more.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So for you, then what is one of your main, if you could summarize that, one of your main objectives of using the Enneagram as a resource to enhance people's spiritual life?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: My my sense here is that when we talk about the Enneagram, and specifically, I think what most people are talking about in 2019 is the Enneagram of personality.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we're trying to work with here is is a way of sort of seeing what was lost in our essence, our authentic self, or or let's say our true self.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So my my sense is, and and I fundamentally believe this, that we're we're born purpose, that our soul exists for a reason, that there's a gift that that we're born to bring into the world.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is life comes at us really hard.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And at a certain point in our infancy, maybe between you know 14 or 18 months and three years old, we we lose contact with that gift.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: We lose or or the tether to to what our our soul's purposed reason for being here is is cut.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And rather than now being a source of love or a source of freedom or a source of peace or a source of hope, we're subconsciously suffering that that disconnect, that loss of essence.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're suffering, sort of being jarred out of our soul's gift and purpose.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And in the suffering, we we begin to cope.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so my sense is your Enneagram type is your ego sort of coping addictions that you wrap up around that so-called childhood wound that causes that disconnect, so that you don't have to tell yourself the truth about who you really are.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth about who we really are is that we are incredible and beautiful and fabulous and purposed.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: What we would rather do is sort of polish this mask, which is this collection of coping mechanisms, this collection of defense skills that keep us from saying yes to the truth of ourself, from returning to our our purpose.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that mask, those coping mechanisms, these defense skills become the sort of, let's say, it becomes the tracks then that we lay sort of how personality is formed.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when people come to the Enneagram and it describes things about their personality, they feel seen or they feel known or they finally feel understood.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what they end up doing is attaching to that.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: They attach to components and descriptions and contours of type.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is, is we're we're not our type, right?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: One of my teachers, Russ Hudson, says this we have a type, but we're not our type.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think one one of the great laments right now is we get so fixated on our type that we think that's it.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And now something tells me about myself.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And now somebody can help me describe what I've always intuitively known about my own sense of self, but I didn't have the the sort of codified structure to to put it all together.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now I do.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and if that's where we stop, if we just stop at sort of fixating on type, like we're it's as if we're keeping ourselves incarcerated in this little prison that that keeps us distant from who we really are.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and stuck in the same old thing.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I I get frustrated equally when I hear someone, well, I'm just a type, this, and this is why I do this.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no, no, wait a minute.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a license to do this or be that.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's an insight to know how you can walk in freedom and you don't have to be stuck in the same places and captive to the childhood wound, bent on this path of really self-destruction a lot of times that people are unknowingly on.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: And this one helps you understand how you got on that path to begin with and what that looks like and why you don't want to stay there and keep doing the same old things.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm totally hijacking the original plan here, but I love this because this is my heart in it, and I love I think the memes are funny, and I think the stereotyping is a great way to get people in the door to be able to go, okay, I'm seen, I'm heard, there's someone else like me.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, in some of the work that you're doing there, what's what's one of the most life-giving, enriching things that you've come across that you're like, yeah, this is why I'm I'm using the Enneagram in my teaching, and this is why it's such a powerful resource.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so the so the work that that that I do with my little nonprofit here is introducing contemplative practice.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's meditation, mindfulness, and and contemplative ways of nurturing and nourishing spirituality.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's really framed by these three postures, solitude, silence, and stillness.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And my sense is solitude, silence, and stillness aren't ways of praying, let's say, um, but it's ways of holding your practices, whatever your your practices may be.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: As you give yourself over to your inner work, your soul work, as you give yourself over to contemplative practice and non-conceptual ways of like us attending to that that spiritual aspect of yourself, the Indogram is a is a really great sort of tool in tandem to sort of help support and facilitate that work.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because the problem is, like I said, our type, or let's say aspects of personality, or let's say the container that that we've sort of incarcerated our egos in actually is the resistance to our meditation, mindfulness, and contemplative practices.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can sort of realize what it is that you're contending with and and and what actually is resisting your own inner work, spiritual growth, then you you kind of get a head start.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: You it's kind of not fair.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: You you get a sort of running start at some of these things.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Secondly, I think contemplative practices sort of loosen the the addictions that show up in your Enneagram type's passion that sort of help heal the so-called childhood wounds.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that they're real wounds.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think that the so-called childhood wound is the confirmation bias to the tenderness in your ego when you're a little.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: So more perceived experience perceived of the experiences.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: This work that we're doing here um really is, I think, supported by what can be brought into awareness when when you do say yes to sort of living beyond type and and looking at you know your type's holy idea, your type's virtue, like the sort of raw material of the best of yourself, but the parts of yourself that are often hidden or lost or repressed or suppressed.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, those are so good.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And this is why anyone who comes to Simply Wholehearted and they're hearing about the Enneagram for the first time, they can get a resource from me that says, you know, where to begin, and I give them some ideas.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And your your book is there on the list.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: I also incorporate these contemplative practices and the coaching.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's in the first time that we meet together, that's kind of how we end, of where we're gonna begin, because I don't want the last thing any of us need are more to-do lists, right?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: We have enough, enough telling us where to check it off and all these things we have to do.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then my so my experience is that we don't need more to-dos, but in what you set out in your book, and why I encourage everyone to read it, but then I try to give a summary in the coaching, is that it's just about coming before the Lord and practicing the solitude, stillness, and silence that in those practices, that's where real life transformation happens, where we're not requiring a ton of input, we're not requiring output, we're just being.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that is where the change happens.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen again and again the fruit of that in people's life, where you know the Lord speaks to them or they come away feeling changed, or they have a sense of peace that they didn't have before.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the amazing work.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then down the road, a couple months later, they're realizing that they're free from this mindset that was holding them captive before.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, I don't know, I think it's remarkable.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really great.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I want everyone to read it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: But what I would love to do is if we could kind of skip forward to this part, is to go through each type.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just gonna write your recommendation, and there's some, you know, there's a ton more behind it, and that's why it's really important to read the book.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: But if you could just give a summary of why this practice is important for that type.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: So for um, we're gonna start with a type eight because you're a type eight, we haven't gotten to touch on that.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask you some more about that because we all want to know more about the type eights.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: We have them in our lives, and some of us feel challenged to, you know, to be able to love them well, and um, and that's the goal.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: So for a type eight, the practice is to consent to stillness.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: What does it look like as a type eight to consent to stillness and why is it important?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So so eights, nines and ones being in their their body, have this sort of compulsion or or in the intuitive or instinctive drive, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is why we see type eights and and type ones as the sort of great initiators of the Enneagram.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think that's why stillness is so important for the body type, is it's getting back into your body, it's stopping, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So for the eights, there there is a kind of resistance there, and that resistance is is is on a fundamental subconscious level how eights want to sort of test the sources of love that they either desire or that they're they're trying to discern if if they can receive.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that resistance is what often comes across as sort of the contrary nature of folks for dominant type eight.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the the the invitation here to consent is learning to say, yeah, it's stopping even the fight and even the fight against the very thing that they want.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so consenting to stillness for the eight means agreeing to slowing down, like not having to sort of be up and out and and and on the go, and and not simply just in their active lives or vocations, even sort of in their interior lives and their spiritual lives.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's so good.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: I can see where that makes complete sense.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, along that in the same triad is the nine and and the body type.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so the recommendation for type nine is to engage in stillness.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit more about that.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so the nines, it's funny when you talk about stillness for the body types.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the the eights and ones sort of get it, right?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of up and out energy there for the nines.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is like super man.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm already chilled out, like I'm already super relaxed.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm married to nine.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of like like sort of melt into my chair and not get out of my bed or stay in my home or whatever that might be.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the trick here for nines is it's kind of an in and down that sort of reminds them to get in their body by engaging their body, by embracing um the very thing that keeps them asleep as a way of waking themselves up out of it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: You you see this a lot in our retreats, like we'll drop into a non-conceptual meditation practice, and inevitably when we're debriefing the practice, somebody will be like, that was amazing, I fell asleep.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying that that's typically the experience of nines, but that's kind of a nine thing to do, is I actually fell asleep in the very practice that I should have stayed alert in.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so embracing stillness for the nine is is being present in it, not falling asleep in it, not checking out, not sort of numbing out and and and sort of disconnecting, but like really finding essence in life.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a different kind of experience that the nine has, even in its center, but it's informative because if the nine can actually do this, the nine shows the rest of us how to do it.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, that's amazing.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know I learned so much from my husband who's a nine.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's remarkable.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it as a three, especially, I need to learn more from him.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: All right, for type one, it's to rest in stillness.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And again, not too unlike what the eight might deal with.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: You have some similarities there to speak to.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: The ones here are are among the the integram's frustrated idealists, and and they idealize in particular the very thing that's unattainable to them, and that sort of doubles down on their type's basic fear.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in that, for the ones, right, this this fear of somehow being inherently corrupt or irredeemably flawed, they sort of drive themselves to sort of earn um the very love that they want through compliance to their superego, to their odds and shoulds.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in a sense, they overdo it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: In a sense, they've outplayed their coverage, they've outrun their charisma or their skills or their even their own inherent goodness.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the invitation for the ones to rest in stillness is just simply saying, look, you've done enough, like you're good enough, you're better than you need to be.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: You've made your world and everybody in your world better than they need to be.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so just stop.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like give yourself a break.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: You deserve this.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can rest in stillness as an interior posture and a mindfulness intention for how you nurture your spirituality, you're giving yourself a break.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're giving yourself the very break that you need so that your practice can actually be healing.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh, that's good.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to point out that there's always a question of the compliant dependent stance for the one, because people are like, how does that make sense for a one who's so sure of what's right and wrong?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: But you just related it to compliance and dependence on the odds and shoulds of life.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that makes a ton of sense.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a demanding edge, let's say, to even their own sort of inner critic that they project, but it's purely that compliance to their super ego, and it's them earning what it is that they think they want the most in their relationships.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that makes a ton of sense.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's really good.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, for type two, we're now stepping into the heart triad.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: So the next three numbers are in that same triad, and it looks similar but uniquely different for each one.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: For the type two, it's consent to solitude.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So for the heart types, my my sense here is this interior posture has to be a posture of solitude because the heart types really are mirroring that energy of the other in their lives.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So for the twos, what they're they're trying to do is show that that nurturing sort of drive within that that causes them to sort of self-abnegate or give themselves away at their own expense.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of twos are doing this very benevolently and actually with with true sincerity.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: But some twos who are unaware of what's behind that are, in a sense, trying to do this as a way of drawing that very same kind of love back to them.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the word here, solitude for the twos, is is actually really devastating because they have to learn to love themselves first.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: They have to go inward first before they can love outward.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't, and and we know this in all great sacred texts of all the world's great religions, we can only love someone as far as we've learned to love ourselves.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing selfish about that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So for the two, it's saying yes to themselves.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's consenting to solitude, it's taking care of themselves first before they attempt to take care of anyone else.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really the point.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: You see this, that a lot of twos will simply do the very thing that they want everybody else to do as a way of modeling it or inviting them in, but that's not the point.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: The twos have to learn to care for their own tenderness before they attempt to even try to care for someone else's.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: For the type three, the practice is to engage in solitude.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So this is again similar to the nine, because the three, six, and nines are the anchor points of the revolutionary types.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And in the three, six, and nine, even though they're right in the middle of their center of intelligence, are the most disconnected from their center.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: The invitation here for the three is to also engage or embrace the very thing that that's lost.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so threes sort of suffer this uh fear that they have to earn their love through making themselves, the people in their lives, what it is that they they give their time to, more valuable.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the more valuable they can make themselves on a subconscious level, the more lovable they think they are.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's never been about success or failure for the three.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's always been about love.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you see, maybe the threes are the most obvious in how they attempt to get love, which is through recognition, affirmation, attention, but that's simply to sort of quiet down that fear.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for the three is spiritual work, it's facing that fear, it's confronting that fear, it's it's going inward into what seems to be the sort of emptiness and hollowness of their heart, and it's engaging that.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's engaging that with and for themselves, because the bummer for the three is that they think they have to earn the very thing that's always been ascribed.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if they're trying to earn this in their exterior lives, then they'll always miss the very thing waiting inside on the interior.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the embracing, engaging sort of that that that solitude means for them.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it'll never be satisfied if we keep going at it externally.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's good.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, for type four, it's to rest in solitude.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the the four, just like the one is is again um among the integram's frustrated idealists, and and the poor four is is suffering this sense that they don't have a sort of rooted place of origin to ground their identity.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're trying to see themselves by seeing everything else outside of themselves.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why the poor fours get cliched as maybe being artistic or or good with words or sort of musically or aesthetically attuned.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that that all fours are artistic, and it's not that um if you're not a four, you can't be artistic.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's that right, the fours are trying to see beauty outside of themselves so that they might be able to sort of pull that thread, let's say, and and and follow it back inside themselves to see where their beauty, their beauty lies.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and so for the four, it it is resting.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's exhausting work for them, seeing everything outside of themselves, showing everyone outside of themselves how how fabulous and and magical they are.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's resting in that own magic of their own inner beauty, but the beauty that they can only see for themselves, that they have to look inward and see first and foremost.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: We can't do that.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: We can't love the two, we can't sort of applaud and and ascribe value to the three, and we can't see the the truth and the authenticity um and the identity of the four, four.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then for the two threes and fours, they have to go inward, and that's where that solitude is.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's powerful.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's really awesome.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: It makes a ton of sense.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, for the next triad and the last one, um, it's the head triad, and that's the type five, six, and seven.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we're going to for the type five, consent to silence.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: So for for the fives, really one of the most misunderstood of all the types, there's a kind of withdrawing into their mind as a way of offering the stability to the to the relationships that they do say yes to and choose.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that going into their mind is is really sort of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: This kind of palace with a sort of moat around it and the drawbridge is always up.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is their gift.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a brilliance there.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's kind of fluency in problem solving and assessing and assessing things out and analyzing.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it's an addiction.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a kind of inner distraction from really getting to the heart of the truth that not knowing is the first thing they truly need to know.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's having, just like the eights and the twos, this agreement, consenting, this saying yes.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: But for the fives, it's saying yes to the gift of silence, which is turning down all of the noise of getting to the bottom of everything that that is still in question, that's still unknown.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And really for the poor fives, it's it's not actually the answers that they're after, it's it's the right questions.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: But even that, it's it's dialing the noise down.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you see this in in the great world religious traditions and especially the mystical ones, that there's a common utterance which reminds us that the first voice of the divine was silence.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And for the fives, that is I think their spiritual sort of foundation to return to that and to say yes to that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it seems so obvious at first, but when you unpack it like you have it seems like a huge challenge, just as for the nine, to stay awake in the stillness, um, for them to also stay awake in the silence and engage in that.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's really fascinating.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, for the type six, engage silence is their practice.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so sixes are the um sort of contingency planners, threat forecasters, worst-case scenario thinkers, and and again, this is their way of trying to take care of the people in their lives, to show love, um, to sort of internalize concerns so so that we don't have to, so that we don't have to go to these really sort of um uncertain places.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: But you see, that actually sort of winds the six into a kind of mental anxiety, um, which leads to, in its worst, sort of drawn out cases, panic or irrationality that sort of is surprising for us, right?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Again, right there in the middle of the head center.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: The six is disconnected from their head, and that's why sometimes they're the maybe the most anxious.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: For for the six to embrace that actually is them sort of realigning what they've sort of lost contact with, but embracing that in silence, like not having to sort of play through all the all the contingencies and possibilities, but but just sort of realizing that their courage is waiting for them in the silence.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not waiting for them at the end of this sort of rabbit trail of figuring it out that they're worried about.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if they continue to give themselves over to all those sort of worst-case scenario thinking scripts, like they'll they'll they'll continue to lose the basis for their centeredness.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so embracing that silence really is where they they learn to find their courage.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's really awesome.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, for type seven, our last one for today is to rest in silence.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: So just like the ones and the fours, the sevens are are the third of the Enneagram's frustrated idealists, and and the ones I'm frustrated about their idealism of idealization of goodness and perfection, the fours, um, significance and beauty of the sevens, it's it's really their idealization of freedom.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so the sevens are sort of always on the lookout for how their their options, opportunities, and and freedoms may be diminished.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and so what this leads to is a kind of pre-occupation for what's beyond the end of what's now.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why um in the early days the sevens were called ego plan.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Their addiction to planning is is really their mental fixation.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a bummer for the sevens because if they are already preoccupied in what's next, if they're already planning sort of what's after the now, then they miss what's in the present.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we know that this present moment is the most important.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's the moment that contains every moment of our lives.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a moment that's that's pregnant with the potential of every future moment we may we may be given.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if we miss this moment, then we've missed everything.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so for the sevens who are on the run from their own inner pain, who are taking us on vacation from our problems, which is really sort of the the guise of them being on constant vacation from theirs, it's resting in this moment.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually being present, and and that has to happen for the sevens in silence.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: They have to sort of flip that switch off in their minds that really is super fast thinking, and that really is sort of way out ahead of us, and just be here and practice that presence in in this moment.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's really amazing.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've got a kiddo that's a seven, and it's fascinating to look at it that way of what would really encourage her and also what's going on in her mind.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've just articulated it in such a just kind of a beautiful twist of understanding more the inner workings and the heart and the mind.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really, really good.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: I love this idea of dialing it back, all the the memes and the stereotypes and all of that, and go, okay, how does it actually work to be whole and healthy in who we were created to be?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's really a powerful thing, and I love it.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to know a little bit more about your personal journey as an Enneagram eight.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: I know in the book you you share a little bit about how you found out about the Enneagram at first and what your experience was, and so we'll let people read that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: But for you, what was that moment like when you discovered, oh, this is how I lead.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is explains a little bit more who I am and how I view life and why I do what I do.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I my I I think my relationship with my my type, and I think probably all of our relationships with our type, if we're honest, is is kind of um a process of conversion, and it has to be a conversion to self that happens through storeways through compassion.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when I first came across my my Neagram type, just you know, just like a lot of us in the old days, like it was sort of framed with the so-called sin language or tragic shape of your tragic flaw language.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the Jesuits were sort of doing in the late 70s and early to mid-80s when they were sort of leaking this is wrapping it up around sin.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting wrapping the passions around sin language.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I don't think the passions are sinful at all.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes sinful, I think, when it's an overused um coping addiction.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think at the beginning it was it was hard.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was hard to sort of look at this, it was hard to look at um the sort of fallout that comes from the overuse of some of these type components.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I think um over the years, like it really has been sort of a compassionate conversion of self-acceptance.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think that we have to remind ourselves that if no, if any part of us doesn't belong, then no part of us truly belongs.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you see when you look at your your type structure, when you look at the components or type descriptions of these nine renderings of human archetypes, is this is you, the good and the bad, but it's all necessary.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's necessary because it tells a story.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: The story of where I came from, how I got lost, how I stay stuck, and and how I can get back home.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So for me in particular, as an eight, that that that story involves uh a return to innocent.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that is my truth.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the virtues and the holy ideas of eights.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that innocence is hidden away in eights, right?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because eights resist their own vulnerability, they resist their own tenderness, they resist anything inside themselves that looks weak, and then they test everything outside of themselves that looks weak.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what that fundamentally is pointing to is that we have forgotten who we are, and in the forgetting of who we are, rather than waking up to it and being truthful about it, grieving that that loss, um, we'd rather cope, we'd rather stay stuck, we'd rather stay asleep, we'd rather project the this sort of ego mythology of who we want to be seen as and who we want to be known as, rather than doing the hard work of sort of excavating that that essence and that buried treasure.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: I used to be bummed out that I wasn't a it's the gift, the place where I can learn to sort of turn these prison walls into sort of translucent um mirrors to let essence be shown through.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the invitation for for all of us in in nine different ways.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: What caused you to switch it and look at it differently and see that it is the imitation and you didn't have to stay?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think I like I said earlier, I just I think I I I started to get a little bit worn out from sort of the the negative tone that a lot of I think the materials and and some of the folks who teach this um start with.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you start with this is your sin tendency and this is the shape of your tragic flaw, and this is why you sort of need to be redeemed, um, then I I imagine that just sort of triggers in a lot of people these voices that roll around in the back of their heads, these voices that maybe sound like shame or guilt or regret or disappointment or doubt.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I think when I I started to look at this a little bit differently and and started to see, look, your your type actually is sort of the clues and the hints that there's something beautiful underneath it, and that the hard work of sort of digging that out, unearthing that very treasure is is is really the point here.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um it changed the tone, it changed the direction, it changed the trajectory of this, and and it really um turned something that I think has has been used to belittle people and shame people and reduce people to quirks and foibles and caricatures into a really sort of mysterious tradition that sort of helps us sort of uncover the mystery of meaning and and and why we're here.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: That only happens though with a lot of compassion.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: That only happens though with kind of bringing a sense of humor to this, and that only happens by being honest about memory.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's the point, right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Gersiv's basically saying the Enneagram is is about what's forgotten.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're working with the Enneagram, it's it's about waking up and remembering what you've always known to be true, who you've always been.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Problem is, is memory is a uh is a liar.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's why eyewitness testimony is unreliable.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um memories are simply impressions, memories are simply metaphors.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that we ascribe meaning to to make our stories make sense to us or to prove what we want our stories to say to others.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that also keeps us asleep.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: That also that also just creates new problems for everyone.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's really interesting.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: So for you, you know, as you operate today, you have I think I remember 20 years of experience in this.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: You obviously dive deep for yourself, you dive deep with others and help others on this journey.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: What do you see today that impacts the most, besides it being part of a career and a spiritual practice in your relationships, understanding the fact that you lead this way and a path to growth and stress?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: How does it impact your day-to-day?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: I on one hand, it's it's kind of a lens that I I see everything through, like, and I don't want to, like, I don't want to sort of read the energy of the next person that walks into my office and and sort of assume or guest type.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I even try to not help people type themselves.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a bun, you know, people are like, hey, what what type do you think I am?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: I am I four or am I nine?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or and it's just like that's that's on us, that's on you.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is a a pay a pigment that happens once.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: It happens when you're ready for it.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I see almost everything through it because it does offer, I think, uh a way of translating how we relate to each other, we relate to ourselves, we relate to our spirituality.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also have to remember that this is simply a tool, like this is a support for the real work.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And just like anything, the Enneagram can become a sort of a distraction, it become a it can become a tool of spiritual bypass.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is one of the great problems with religious people.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: You have a ton of folks who've converted to a faith tradition, so they've essentially changed their beliefs and and they fill their churches on Sunday mornings, but they're still terrible human beings.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're still racist, they're still abusive partners, they're they're still not generous in their own communities.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so simply converting, simply changing your mind about something, simply sort of altering your beliefs, doesn't actually offer any gifts to your contribution to humanity.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's really the ongoing inner transformation.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where the integram can be dangerous for folks.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the integram is a kind of spiritual bypass.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, now I know my type, I'm so awake, I'm so woke, I'm so aware.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, you you now you know something else about yourself that's actually been sort of the source of your problems, and knowing it doesn't change your problems.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think this is is is where we have to be honest.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like the Enneagram as a tool for awareness does contribute to waking us up.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't do the hard work of waking up, the Enneagram actually keeps you asleep.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I kind of get bummed out when you see these folks like hustling their t-shirts in their mugs.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if your type is the prison where you've incarcerated your essence, um, some of us are actually sitting in this prison cell decorating the walls as if this is a life sentence.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't have to be that, and that's what letting beyond your type is.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so rocking your t-shirt type seven, type eight, type nine t-shirts, it's like you're bragging about why you got locked up or what you did to be incarcerated.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, yes, it belongs and it's part of you, and and and you don't have to be ashamed of it, but being proud of it also misses the point.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like being proud of it misses the point that there's something that it's pointing to beyond.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's what we're trying to get at here.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, that's so good.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the perfect thing to just in this last question here of maybe people are hearing, you know, so much about the Enneagram, but that this is the first time they've heard your perspective, and it's a little maybe different than what they've been hearing out there.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we're talking about spiritual practices, we've laid out what it will look like for each type.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Your book is an amazing resource.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: But what was what's the next step that a person can do if they're for the first time realizing, oh, this is a tool to wake up, not just to buy the mug and wear the t-shirt?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think percept for all of us is to find um ways of nurturing and nourishing our spirituality, like I said, that are really marked by solitude, silence, and stillness.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and those aren't ways of praying or practicing, those are how you hold whatever your prayers or practices are.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you don't have a mindfulness practice or a meditation practice or a contemplative practice, it's it's finding the one that that sort of helps ignite this, that helps kickstart this aspect of how this part of yourself is cared for differently.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you bring then awareness of type into that practice, um, you'll you'll find um some some real gentleness and what contemplative practices do to loosen these sort of addictive grasps of our type's passion and like I said, heal the the pain, even if it wasn't intended, of these so-called childhood wounds.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, thank you for your time, for your expertise, your insight.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate what you're gonna bring to my friends here as they listen from your perspective and they hear a little bit more about the story.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and also I love just highlighting you as a um person who leads as Enneagram 8 and how you embody making change and transformation and being on a mission with a ton of passion for this topic.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for including me and and and for making room to have this conversation.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate what you're up to.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a better understanding of an Aneagram 8?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly hope you learned a little bit more in our conversation today.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: You've taken the first step in the Enneagram journey and tuned in to hear perspective.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're looking for more insight, I have several ways to help you.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Check out our Instagram feed for weekly Enneagram postings and then get the Wholehearted Enneagram Quick Start, which is my step-by-step guide to gain clearer understanding on your dominant type.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you're looking for a colorful overview, my wholehearted Enneagram summary gives you the highlights of all nine types on one page.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is so helpful as you talk to others about this awesome resource.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: And last but not least, I've just opened up a few more coaching spots for the rest of this month.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: For now, you can get on the wait list for a free 30-minute consult.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: All the info is in the show notes or at simplywellhearted.com.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Be sure and follow Chris on the socials and check out his website for possible retreats you might be interested in coming up in 2020.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, we want you to invite others to join us as we continue our summer in the Enneagram.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: Next up, we'll be talking about the Enneagram Nines with Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: She leads with the Type 9 and she'll also be giving us relationship advice for all nine types.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: I so appreciate getting to know Beth, and I know you'll enjoy our conversation.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Let's continue to invite others to join us as we pursue perspective, purpose, and plans for a simply wholehearted life.