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Out of the Shadows - True Crime Documentary · The Evolution of Evil - True Crime Stories

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I met Vicki in high school. It was like we
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: were just meant to be. We had so much in common.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: That was my favorite song until this day. I'll crank
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: it up in the car if I hear it. It
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: just says something about I guess, kind of like the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: way I thought of her.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe there was never never a doubt in my mind
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: how much my mom and my dad loved us.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: My name is Bill Wiggerly. I was coming home for lunch.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I was working on that side of town. I'd figured
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: by hurry and get home for lunch. I found Brandon
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: by himself. I thought that was unusual for her not
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: to be there with him. I kind of looked around,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I think, for her, and didn't find her normal life.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: You don't expect something bad to be happening.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: She died by strangulation or a number of literature marks
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: around her neck?
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: Why why her?
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: What did she do?
• 1:21
  Speaker 5: What did we do?
• 1:24
  Speaker 6: He's there for fifteen minutes, probably before he discovers the body.
• 1:28
  Speaker 6: There were definitely police officers that thought that Bill Weggerley
• 1:32
  Speaker 6: killed his wife.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Could that person be involved? You know who else would
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: have killed the wife?
• 1:37
  Speaker 7: Did they ask you to take a polygraph.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I took a polygraph for them, and I also
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: took one privately.
• 1:45
  Speaker 7: And did that make them less suspicious?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Not made them more suspicious? Why I failed both of them?
• 1:53
  Speaker 8: So Bill Weggerly, for eighteen years, had to live under
• 1:56
  Speaker 8: the cloud of suspicion that he killed his wife.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: I don't think they put two an two together that
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: this had anything to do as a serial killer.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: This is BTK, this is him.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: He killed my mom.
• 2:09
  Speaker 9: Out of the shadows.
• 2:38
  Speaker 8: For three decades, Wichita, Kansas has lived with a murder mystery,
• 2:43
  Speaker 8: ten victims, strangle without mercy, and a faithless killer who
• 2:47
  Speaker 8: called himself BTK.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: Dealt with very, very cold blooded killers, but none who
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: have such a tremendous memory over this many years.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: I've never dealt with anybody like this. Hello, everybody.
• 3:02
  Speaker 8: District Attorney Nola Fulston is prosecuting Dennis Rader, the man
• 3:06
  Speaker 8: behind the initials which stand for bind, torture and kill.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: We have torture devices.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: He commented to me at one point, I'm sorry. I
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: know this is a human being, but I'm a monster.
• 3:19
  Speaker 8: You'll learn how Rader became that killer and the untold
• 3:22
  Speaker 8: story of one family's horrific encounter with bt K.
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: Bill Weggerley was victimized and tortured in this whole episode
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: from the day that his wife died the day that
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: she was killed. It not only killed him, it put
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: him under suspicion for a long period of time.
• 3:47
  Speaker 8: Bill Weggerley and his children have been silent about what
• 3:51
  Speaker 8: happened to them for nineteen years. They speak for the
• 3:54
  Speaker 8: first time.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I remember seeing her across the hallway in school and
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: just thinking.
• 4:03
  Speaker 9: You know, wow.
• 4:05
  Speaker 8: Bill met his wife, Vicky when they were sixteen.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: She was just tall and slender and attractive, well kept.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, she's quiet.
• 4:15
  Speaker 7: And you got married when when.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: We were seventeen young.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes it seemed like they were just, you know,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: two kids in love.
• 4:27
  Speaker 8: When they were just eighteen, Bill and VICKI had a daughter, Stephanie.
• 4:32
  Speaker 7: What do you remember of your mom?
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: To me, it seemed like she was always happy and
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: bubbly and you know, easy going, and life was life
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: was good.
• 4:41
  Speaker 8: Eight years later, a son, Brandon was born.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: My life revolved around her, and her life revolved around
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: the kids and me and her family too. Those are
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: the important things to us.
• 4:56
  Speaker 8: Then came a day so surreal that, even nineteen years later,
• 5:00
  Speaker 8: Bill Weggerley still seems in shock.
• 5:03
  Speaker 7: When was the last time you saw Vicky?
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: When I left for work that morning, probably about.
• 5:09
  Speaker 8: Eight o'clock the date September sixteenth, nineteen eighty six.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: And I just remember kissing her goodbye, which normally I
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: didn't take the time to do that, but that morning
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 5:25
  Speaker 8: While Bill was at work and Stephanie at school, Vicki
• 5:29
  Speaker 8: was home. At one point that morning. She was heard
• 5:32
  Speaker 8: playing the piano. She was also taking care of Brandon,
• 5:35
  Speaker 8: who was then too.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I was coming home for lunch and just to see
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: her and Brandon. I passed my car on my way home.
• 5:47
  Speaker 7: Did you know it was your car?
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I was sure it was my car.
• 5:51
  Speaker 7: And could you see who was driving it?
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: I saw a person driving.
• 5:54
  Speaker 7: It, yes, but not your wife.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: No.
• 5:58
  Speaker 7: What happened when you got home?
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: I found Brandon sitting on the floor by himself.
• 6:05
  Speaker 7: Were you worried at that moment?
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: I was concerned. Yeah. I didn't know exactly what was
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: going on. Why Brandon would be there by himself, That's
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: very unusual.
• 6:15
  Speaker 7: What did you do at that point?
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I've eventually went into the bedroom and discovered her on
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: the floor.
• 6:22
  Speaker 8: Vicky had been tied up and strangled.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Then you start to put things together that the person
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: that was in my car probably, I'm sure did this,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: and I immediately called nine to one one.
• 6:36
  Speaker 8: But when police arrived and started putting things together themselves,
• 6:41
  Speaker 8: they came to a different conclusion.
• 6:43
  Speaker 7: Did they believe you?
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I don't think they did.
• 6:47
  Speaker 8: That's because Bill failed those two lie detector tests.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: The individual that I hired to take the polygraph, he
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: said he believed what I was saying was true. He said,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: it's just the stress that I was.
• 7:00
  Speaker 7: Did you think it was possible you might be charged?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: That got to a point, yeah, I was fearful of that.
• 7:07
  Speaker 8: Police never had enough evidence to actually charge Bill or
• 7:11
  Speaker 8: anyone else, but the rumors persisted for years.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: I remember going back to school and my friends would
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: tell me on the playground that, you know, my mom
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: and dad said that your dad did it.
• 7:27
  Speaker 7: That was top one. What would you say to them?
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: I didn't say anything. We knew what the truth was.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: So it just made me more aware of who I
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: was friends with.
• 7:42
  Speaker 7: What about you, Brandon?
• 7:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah?
• 7:43
  Speaker 10: I had a teacher, I think in middle school that
• 7:46
  Speaker 10: had laid to her younger son who had told me
• 7:50
  Speaker 10: that me and my dad were bad people and to
• 7:53
  Speaker 10: stay away from us.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Why because my dad killed my mother.
• 7:58
  Speaker 8: As you two got older, did you wonder what had
• 8:01
  Speaker 8: happened to your mom?
• 8:05
  Speaker 7: What would you think?
• 8:06
  Speaker 10: Well, I can remember from probably age seven or eight,
• 8:10
  Speaker 10: my grandma told me that she thought it was BTK.
• 8:13
  Speaker 10: But at that age, you know, that meant nothing to me.
• 8:17
  Speaker 8: B t K, those initials and this symbol haunted Wichita,
• 8:23
  Speaker 8: representing a phantom killer who had never been caught. Although
• 8:27
  Speaker 8: it had been nine years since his last known murder,
• 8:31
  Speaker 8: Vicky's brutal death seemed to carry his trademark. She had
• 8:34
  Speaker 8: been bound and strangled like all the others before her.
• 8:41
  Speaker 8: January nineteen seventy four, Four members of the Otero family
• 8:45
  Speaker 8: are tied up and strangled, including two children, nine year
• 8:49
  Speaker 8: old Joseph and eleven year old Josephine, who was hanged
• 8:53
  Speaker 8: from a basement pipe April nineteen seventy four. Twenty one
• 8:59
  Speaker 8: year old Catherine Bright tied up, strangled, and stabbed to
• 9:03
  Speaker 8: death October nineteen seventy four. In a note left at
• 9:08
  Speaker 8: the Wichita Public Library, the killer took credit for the
• 9:11
  Speaker 8: Otero murders and gave himself a name bt K for
• 9:16
  Speaker 8: buying them, torture them, killed them. March nineteen seventy seven,
• 9:22
  Speaker 8: another strangling, and this time a witness six year old
• 9:28
  Speaker 8: Steve Ralford.
• 9:29
  Speaker 7: What do you remember that day?
• 9:33
  Speaker 8: Steve was walking home from the store with soup for
• 9:36
  Speaker 8: his sick mother when he was confronted by a stranger.
• 9:39
  Speaker 11: He stops me, approaches me, shows me a pitcher, asked me.
• 9:43
  Speaker 11: Did not know who it was? So no, sir, I
• 9:47
  Speaker 11: don't know who she is.
• 9:49
  Speaker 8: Steve ran home. The moments later there was a knock
• 9:52
  Speaker 8: on the door.
• 9:53
  Speaker 11: Me and my brother rest of the door. I beat
• 9:56
  Speaker 11: my brother. I left the BTK in my house.
• 10:01
  Speaker 8: BTK gave Steve and his two siblings a blanket of
• 10:04
  Speaker 8: some toys, then he locked them in the bathroom. The
• 10:08
  Speaker 8: terrified children watched through a crack at the top of
• 10:10
  Speaker 8: the door as their mother, Shirley Ryan, was tied to
• 10:14
  Speaker 8: her bed and strangled.
• 10:16
  Speaker 7: What do you number of them? Was he tall, ma'am?
• 10:20
  Speaker 11: I don't remember how tall. I don't remember how short,
• 10:26
  Speaker 11: but I remember what his face looked like.
• 10:28
  Speaker 8: It sounds like you feel guilt that you ever let
• 10:32
  Speaker 8: him in your house.
• 10:34
  Speaker 11: That'll be forstenal life.
• 10:36
  Speaker 8: How could you feel guilty about it? Steve, you didn't
• 10:39
  Speaker 8: have anything.
• 10:39
  Speaker 7: To do with us, Yeah, did?
• 10:43
  Speaker 11: He's the door.
• 10:45
  Speaker 8: December nineteen seventy seven, BTK bound and strangled twenty five
• 10:50
  Speaker 8: year old Nancy Fox and added a twist, he reported
• 10:54
  Speaker 8: the murder to police himself.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: You will find it.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Forty three stopped.
• 11:05
  Speaker 8: Then the killer sent a chilling letter to a local
• 11:08
  Speaker 8: TV station that read, in part, how many do I
• 11:11
  Speaker 8: have to kill before I get a name in the
• 11:13
  Speaker 8: paper or some national attention.
• 11:16
  Speaker 12: He apparently was pretty irritated by the lack of news coverage.
• 11:20
  Speaker 8: Former Wichita police detective Arlen Smith says the city was
• 11:24
  Speaker 8: in a panic.
• 11:25
  Speaker 12: We worked it with a sense of urgency because nobody
• 11:29
  Speaker 12: knew how long it was going to be before he
• 11:32
  Speaker 12: killed somebody else.
• 11:34
  Speaker 8: But then in nineteen seventy nine, BTK seemed to disappear.
• 11:39
  Speaker 8: So when Vicki Weggerly was killed seven years later, police
• 11:43
  Speaker 8: focused on the most logical suspect, her husband.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I knew there was an individual out there that did this,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: but to me, it just seemed like they weren't looking
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: for anybody else.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: All the pain and the heartache and dismiss her.
• 12:18
  Speaker 7: What do you miss about her?
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Everything? I mean, even at ten years old. You know,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: she was my best friend.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I don't think people understand that the difficulties that I
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: had and the fears of just raising two kids, it was.
• 12:40
  Speaker 10: Like Stephanie was my second mother. She stepped in and
• 12:46
  Speaker 10: kind of took over.
• 12:49
  Speaker 8: The Weggerly children not only lost their mother, VICKI, they
• 12:52
  Speaker 8: also had to endure the whispers and rumors about their
• 12:56
  Speaker 8: father for eighteen years. Is there ever a time, Stephanie
• 13:01
  Speaker 8: that you thought your dad might have been responsible for
• 13:03
  Speaker 8: your mom's death?
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Oh? No, absolutely not.
• 13:06
  Speaker 10: Never.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: There's a kind of a cloud that rests over your head.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: And oh, there's Bill Weggerley. His wife was killed, and
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: nobody's ever found the killer.
• 13:18
  Speaker 8: And then on a March Day in two thousand and four,
• 13:22
  Speaker 8: everything changed. It started with a letter to reporter Hirst Loviana.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: This is a copy of the envelope.
• 13:30
  Speaker 8: Inside the envelope a copy of Vicky Weggerly's driver's license
• 13:35
  Speaker 8: and what appeared to be crime scene pictures of her body.
• 13:38
  Speaker 13: I looked at the crime scene photographs and realized they
• 13:42
  Speaker 13: weren't routine crime scene photographs.
• 13:46
  Speaker 8: They weren't routine because police didn't take them. The only
• 13:51
  Speaker 8: person who could have was the killer.
• 13:54
  Speaker 6: We do not have photographs or its scene because she
• 13:56
  Speaker 6: was transported because it came in as a medical call,
• 13:59
  Speaker 6: so gets their transports are out before police arrived.
• 14:04
  Speaker 8: For Lieutenant ken Landweer, who ran the BTK task Force,
• 14:08
  Speaker 8: the letter was a huge breakthrough after eighteen years. It
• 14:12
  Speaker 8: cleared Bill Weggerly and exposed BTK as the real killer.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: This monster come into my home and took my wife
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: from me, you know, it took my life, our whole
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: lives away from us as we knew it, and changed
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: us as people for the rest of our lives.
• 14:35
  Speaker 8: For the Weggerlees and all the families that lost loved
• 14:37
  Speaker 8: ones to BTK, the horror came rushing back.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: We had gone on, you know, with our lives all
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: these years, and then to have all of it come
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: up again and to have to live through it all
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: again was pretty hard.
• 14:54
  Speaker 8: The return of BTK also shocked Wichita's district Attorney, Nola Falls.
• 15:00
  Speaker 8: Like everyone else in town, her life and career have
• 15:04
  Speaker 8: been haunted by the faceless killer.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: I was the same as anybody else, with locking my doors,
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: checking my phone, living in the same fear that everyone
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: else was living with.
• 15:16
  Speaker 7: Good evening, a new letter and new clues, possibly.
• 15:19
  Speaker 8: Vicky Weggerly's driver's license was only the beginning. Throughout two
• 15:23
  Speaker 8: thousand and four, there was a frenzy of chilling BTK
• 15:27
  Speaker 8: communicays as the killer scattered clues from past crimes all
• 15:32
  Speaker 8: over the city, teasing, puzzling, and frightening.
• 15:37
  Speaker 9: K FDI.
• 15:39
  Speaker 13: The FBI is now checking out a package that was
• 15:41
  Speaker 13: found in a Wichita park.
• 15:42
  Speaker 8: There were dollgrams, little dolls, one with a noose around
• 15:47
  Speaker 8: its neck. The killer posed the doll to represent the
• 15:50
  Speaker 8: murder of eleven year old Josephine Otero, who was hanged.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: He's preferred he's a sexual offender. He is a pedophile.
• 16:02
  Speaker 8: There were serial boxes. Btk's sick play on the words
• 16:06
  Speaker 8: serial killer.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: He's got to be really twisted to have to manufacture
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: these pictures. He is sexually benefiting as he's drawing this stuff.
• 16:18
  Speaker 8: Why would he reappear after years of silence?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, are you ready?
• 16:23
  Speaker 8: Police believe it was because of a writer named Bob Batty,
• 16:27
  Speaker 8: hi excellent book and the publicity surrounding his new book
• 16:31
  Speaker 8: about the murders.
• 16:33
  Speaker 13: This guy always wrote because he wanted attention. He writes
• 16:36
  Speaker 13: to a television station. It says how many do I
• 16:40
  Speaker 13: have to kill before I get some attention.
• 16:45
  Speaker 8: Soon enough? The killer, seemingly jealous of baby, submitted his
• 16:50
  Speaker 8: own book to police, and then he made a mistake
• 16:55
  Speaker 8: inside another serial box. He sent a note asking if
• 16:59
  Speaker 8: he could send lease a computer disc and still stay anonymous.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: So he wrote, and he said, be honest with me,
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: his words, be honest with me. If I send you
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: a disc, will it be traceable?
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Put in the newspaper it'll be okay, rex and send
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: it under this code number.
• 17:18
  Speaker 8: Police placed an ad in the paper just as BTK instructed.
• 17:22
  Speaker 8: He in turn sent in a disc and was trapped
• 17:26
  Speaker 8: when it.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Reached ass destination. Immediately, it was forensically examined.
• 17:31
  Speaker 7: In no time.
• 17:32
  Speaker 8: Computer experts trace the disc to a local church and
• 17:36
  Speaker 8: a user named Dennis. A Google search did the rest,
• 17:41
  Speaker 8: turning up a Dennis Raider, president of the christ Lutheran Church.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: And I looked at this picture and I went, you
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: have got to be kidding me.
• 17:55
  Speaker 8: The ghost to a terrified Wichita for thirty years, finally
• 17:59
  Speaker 8: had a and what a face it was. BTK was,
• 18:05
  Speaker 8: of all things, a dog catcher, a suburban family man
• 18:10
  Speaker 8: with two grown kids and a tidy little house. It
• 18:14
  Speaker 8: all seems so normal.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: And then it was kind of like, yeah, he fits,
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: he just fits. He fits the profile.
• 18:24
  Speaker 8: He's everyman, everyone's gut, said Dennis Rader. But police wanted
• 18:29
  Speaker 8: the case air tight. They wanted DNA. They secretly obtained
• 18:36
  Speaker 8: a sample from Raider's daughter.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: That was taken while she was in college.
• 18:40
  Speaker 7: In blood no pap swear.
• 18:43
  Speaker 8: The daughter's DNA was compared to seamen left at some
• 18:47
  Speaker 8: of btk's crime scenes, and it was a close match.
• 18:54
  Speaker 8: On February twenty fifth, three decades after the BTK murders began,
• 19:00
  Speaker 8: it all ended, one of the most notorious murderers in
• 19:04
  Speaker 8: American history was arrested in the most routine way as
• 19:09
  Speaker 8: he headed home for lunch.
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: It was so emotional. I can't tell you how motional
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: it was. It was so great.
• 19:17
  Speaker 7: It was like, this son of a bitch, this gone,
• 19:22
  Speaker 7: he is out of here.
• 19:34
  Speaker 6: This is PTK, and your job is to get compassion
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: from him. He needs to say what he.
• 19:41
  Speaker 8: Did, which AITA police lieutenant Ken Lambweer spent his entire
• 19:46
  Speaker 8: career preparing for this one moment, confronting the man he
• 19:51
  Speaker 8: believed to be the serial killer bt k well.
• 19:54
  Speaker 6: I wanted to clear all the homicide. I just didn't
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: want to clear two or three. I wanted all of them.
• 20:00
  Speaker 8: As lambwere sat down to interrogate Dennis Rader, District Attorney
• 20:04
  Speaker 8: Nola Fulston watched from the next room.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: What was your first reaction? I thought he was a geek.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I know that sounds terrible, but he was just he
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: was so full of himself.
• 20:21
  Speaker 8: For the first few hours, Rader admitted nothing. Then Lamb
• 20:24
  Speaker 8: Wird took him by surprise and told Rader there was
• 20:27
  Speaker 8: DNA evidence connecting him to six of the murders, including
• 20:31
  Speaker 8: Vicky Weggerly's raider's skin was found under her fingernails.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: Then it was like the damn had broken. You could
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: not shut this guy up.
• 20:43
  Speaker 7: What was the most surprising part of the confession to.
• 20:46
  Speaker 6: The one that I will never forget is the fact
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: of when he asked me the question, ken, why did
• 20:53
  Speaker 6: you lie to me?
• 20:57
  Speaker 7: And what's he talking about? When he asks you, why
• 20:59
  Speaker 7: is she.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Looking at the floppy disc?
• 21:01
  Speaker 6: He didn't think we could trace a floppy disc because
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: he asked me, why'd.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: You lie to me?
• 21:07
  Speaker 6: If he wouldn't have lied to me, I wouldn't have
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: sent it.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: To you because I was trying to catch you.
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: And when I told him, I was trying to catch you,
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: he says, But we had such a good thing going,
• 21:18
  Speaker 6: you and I had that rapport.
• 21:20
  Speaker 7: He really thought that they would be honest with him.
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: Can you believe that they could have sold them the
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: Brooklyn Bridge.
• 21:29
  Speaker 8: From that point on, Rader eagerly spent the next thirty
• 21:33
  Speaker 8: hours reviewing the last thirty years of his life as
• 21:37
  Speaker 8: he proudly confessed to murder after murder, Rader revealed a
• 21:41
  Speaker 8: darker nature than anyone could have imagined.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Nauseating, he'd start going on and on and on about
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: each and every one of his conquests.
• 21:53
  Speaker 8: While Rader was confessing, investigators began turning up physical evidence
• 21:58
  Speaker 8: against him. In his city office, they discovered, in plain
• 22:02
  Speaker 8: sight a cabinet full of souvenirs from the killings, all
• 22:06
  Speaker 8: neatly filed away. Raider called the stash his mother load.
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: He had all the original communications, he had all the evidence,
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: all the trinkets, driver's licenses, all those things were all
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: very neatly stored, all in finders.
• 22:25
  Speaker 8: Inside Raider's tiny nine hundred square foot house, investigators found
• 22:30
  Speaker 8: another stash, a container in his closet full of what
• 22:34
  Speaker 8: Raider called slick ads, sexual fantasy cards he made using
• 22:38
  Speaker 8: magazine photos of women and young girls.
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: What is wrong with this guy?
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: His mind was totally fantasy driven.
• 22:46
  Speaker 8: Police theorized these fantasies allowed Raider to go years without
• 22:51
  Speaker 8: killing and were key to his elaborate double life, a
• 22:55
  Speaker 8: life in which the normal activities of Dennis Rader fed
• 22:58
  Speaker 8: the ghoulish appetite heights of BTK. For instance, he told
• 23:03
  Speaker 8: police he used a former job installing burglar alarms to
• 23:07
  Speaker 8: enter homes and trol for victims.
• 23:10
  Speaker 14: You always felt like he was very busy, and you know,
• 23:15
  Speaker 14: whatever you got, just whatever you need, let him know
• 23:17
  Speaker 14: because he's got things to do. Very busy.
• 23:19
  Speaker 8: Man Denise Maddock shared an office with Rader at the
• 23:23
  Speaker 8: home security company ADT in the nineteen eighties. Vicky Waggerly
• 23:28
  Speaker 8: was killed in the middle of the day when he
• 23:31
  Speaker 8: was working at ADT and when you were working with him,
• 23:37
  Speaker 8: which means he had to leave in the middle of
• 23:39
  Speaker 8: the day and then come back after killing a woman
• 23:42
  Speaker 8: and brutally killing a woman. When Rader admitted to the
• 23:47
  Speaker 8: nineteen eighty five strangling of Marine Hedge, a woman who
• 23:51
  Speaker 8: lived on his own block. He told police he took
• 23:54
  Speaker 8: the body to his church, where he posed and photographed it.
• 24:01
  Speaker 8: It was the same church where he appeared to be
• 24:03
  Speaker 8: so devout he was elected president of the congregation.
• 24:08
  Speaker 15: We just couldn't believe that they were talking about the
• 24:10
  Speaker 15: denist Raider that we knew.
• 24:13
  Speaker 8: Paul Carlstad has known Dennis Raider for thirty years.
• 24:17
  Speaker 15: The dentist that came to church every Sunday, the dentist
• 24:20
  Speaker 15: that was there to help in whatever way we wanted
• 24:23
  Speaker 15: him to help. It just didn't make any sense.
• 24:27
  Speaker 8: Raider also revealed that he slipped away from a boy
• 24:30
  Speaker 8: Scout camping trip in nineteen ninety one to strangle sixty
• 24:34
  Speaker 8: two year old Dolores Davis. It was Raider's last murder.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: His fantasy is to take her to a barn, string
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: her up, and then do some sexual bondage things with
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: this dead body and photograph room.
• 24:49
  Speaker 8: But Raider got caught in a snowstorm and dumped the
• 24:52
  Speaker 8: body under a bridge instead.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: And it isn't until a couple weeks later that her
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: body's actually located underneath this bridge out in the county,
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: and they find with it a mask, a plastic mask
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: that's been painted decorated with some eyelashes and lipstick and
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: painted face on it?
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: What made him think he had the right to take
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: somebody that meant the world to me?
• 25:23
  Speaker 8: So unjust For Delores Davis's son Jeff, learning the identity
• 25:28
  Speaker 8: of his mother's killer is a fresh outrage.
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: What sick, perverted pleasure can you possibly get enjoying looking
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: into somebody's terrified eyes as you strangle the life out
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: of them.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: The BTK suspect will be back in court in about
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: a half an hour.
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: A court proceeding is scheduled at nine o'clock.
• 25:59
  Speaker 8: Finally, Raider was forced to appear in public for the
• 26:02
  Speaker 8: first time since his arrest.
• 26:05
  Speaker 13: Sir, I have been advised, as your desire inter a
• 26:08
  Speaker 13: pleaded guilty in this case is fact correct.
• 26:11
  Speaker 11: Yes, Sir.
• 26:12
  Speaker 8: On June twenty seventh, in a Wichita courtroom, he pleaded
• 26:16
  Speaker 8: guilty to all ten murders.
• 26:18
  Speaker 13: I used to Russ as.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: A telephone repaireman to get in their house.
• 26:22
  Speaker 8: Reader's casual, cooperative tone in the courtroom seemed strangely at
• 26:27
  Speaker 8: odds with the brutal murders. He described.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: I was still kind of in a fog. I think
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you know, it just didn't seem real that this person
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: could do these things. And then for me, it really
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: hit home when he said he walked on up to
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the door.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: And heard the piano.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: As I approached it, I could hear a pianel sound.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: That's when I knew that, you know, yeah, that was
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: my mom that he heard play.
• 26:53
  Speaker 8: Is that the first time you realized this really was
• 26:55
  Speaker 8: the killer? But even as he was admitting what he did,
• 27:00
  Speaker 8: Dennis Raider failed to answer the biggest question of all,
• 27:04
  Speaker 8: what made him do it.
• 27:06
  Speaker 10: I remember one of the detectives saying, the devil comes
• 27:09
  Speaker 10: in an angel's disguise.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: It just still didn't seem it still doesn't seem one
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: hundred percent real to me that this normal look, you know,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: normal average guy that's married, has two kids, does all
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: the normal stuff, that that he could do such horrible
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: things to so many innocent people.
• 27:50
  Speaker 8: Well known Dennis Rader did do these horrible things. The
• 27:53
  Speaker 8: only question is why I was able to speak with
• 27:57
  Speaker 8: him by phone, and I met with him twice in cameras, however,
• 28:01
  Speaker 8: were banned.
• 28:02
  Speaker 7: This is what Raider told me.
• 28:06
  Speaker 8: He says, he grew up like any other child in
• 28:09
  Speaker 8: a loving family and insists he was never abused. In fact,
• 28:14
  Speaker 8: Raider's court appointed attorney, Steve Osborne, admits he tried to
• 28:18
  Speaker 8: find something, anything from Dennis Raider's past that could somehow
• 28:23
  Speaker 8: explain bt K.
• 28:26
  Speaker 16: We talked to the family some and you know, we
• 28:28
  Speaker 16: didn't see anything that jumped out at us as abnormal.
• 28:32
  Speaker 16: No trauma, no big event that would scar him or
• 28:37
  Speaker 16: or cause, you know, something like this to happen.
• 28:42
  Speaker 8: Yet, as young as seven or eight years of age,
• 28:44
  Speaker 8: Raider told me and investigators he became fascinated with inflicting
• 28:49
  Speaker 8: pain on living things. He started with animals.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: As a young boy.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: He first became aroused when he was at his grandpier It's.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: Farm and they would kill chickens.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: For feeding the family, and he became very fixated on
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: the death of those animals.
• 29:14
  Speaker 8: And it gets stranger. While other boys of his generation
• 29:18
  Speaker 8: looked up to baseball players, Raider says his hero was
• 29:22
  Speaker 8: Harvey Glatman, a serial killer who targeted young single women
• 29:26
  Speaker 8: in Hollywood. He was executed in nineteen fifty nine when
• 29:30
  Speaker 8: Raider was just fourteen, but Glatman became an inspiration for
• 29:35
  Speaker 8: the boy who would grow up to terrorize Wichita. Remember
• 29:41
  Speaker 8: Annette Funicello, Raider told detectives, quote she was my favorite
• 29:48
  Speaker 8: fantasy hit target. When she was on the Mousketiers, Raider
• 29:52
  Speaker 8: imagined how he would kidnap the star Mouskatier and quote
• 29:56
  Speaker 8: do sexual things to her in California. Reader told me
• 30:02
  Speaker 8: that as he got older, he collected detective pulp magazines
• 30:05
  Speaker 8: depicting women in bondage. That the act of tying up
• 30:09
  Speaker 8: a human body became an obsession, an obsession that he
• 30:13
  Speaker 8: managed to keep secret from everyone he knew, even when
• 30:16
  Speaker 8: he began killing at the age of twenty nine. For
• 30:19
  Speaker 8: all these years, he seemed just like anybody else here.
• 30:23
  Speaker 8: He might have been someone you talk to. You might
• 30:25
  Speaker 8: have been standing next to him here in the library,
• 30:28
  Speaker 8: right right, author Robert Beatty.
• 30:31
  Speaker 13: They were looking for crazy Charles Manson, somebody with a
• 30:34
  Speaker 13: history of crime, sex crimes, mental disorders. You get on
• 30:40
  Speaker 13: the elevator with Charles Manson, you're going to move to
• 30:42
  Speaker 13: the other side of the elevator, said, You get on
• 30:44
  Speaker 13: the elevator with BTK, You're going to smile a nod
• 30:47
  Speaker 13: and have a conversation. You're never gonna suspect this guy.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: I trusted this man.
• 30:53
  Speaker 14: I mean I really trusted him.
• 30:55
  Speaker 8: During the time that Denise Maddock shared an office with
• 30:58
  Speaker 8: Raider at ADT you will.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Find me Homer Tide.
• 31:02
  Speaker 8: That fourteen second phone call reporting Nancy Fox's homicide was
• 31:07
  Speaker 8: replayed repeatedly on television. Denise, you worked with him for
• 31:11
  Speaker 8: eleven years, I do, and you didn't recognize his voice
• 31:15
  Speaker 8: on that I didn't phone.
• 31:18
  Speaker 13: Would you please stand with counsel.
• 31:20
  Speaker 8: She also never connected the killer's behavior with the Dennis Raider.
• 31:25
  Speaker 8: She knew he was polite and even protective of women.
• 31:29
  Speaker 14: I was working around all these guys, sharing a restroom
• 31:31
  Speaker 14: with him, I was the only woman, and he always
• 31:35
  Speaker 14: wanted to make sure that they put the lid down
• 31:37
  Speaker 14: and no dirty jokes. He painted the bathroom for me
• 31:39
  Speaker 14: because I thought it was It was really gross.
• 31:43
  Speaker 8: We know from Raider's own letters to police that he
• 31:47
  Speaker 8: admired famous murderers like Jack the Ripper and Son of Sam,
• 31:51
  Speaker 8: But what isn't widely known is how much he borrowed
• 31:54
  Speaker 8: from his hero, serial killer Harvey Glatman. A warning what
• 31:59
  Speaker 8: you were about to see maybe very disturbing. Back in
• 32:03
  Speaker 8: the nineteen fifties, Glatman's victims were beautiful young models. He
• 32:09
  Speaker 8: would lure them with the promise of a photo shoot.
• 32:13
  Speaker 8: Glatman bound, gagged, and then photographed them in the moments
• 32:18
  Speaker 8: before he strangled them. Rader told me that's where he
• 32:22
  Speaker 8: got the idea. These are the pictures Dennis Raider took.
• 32:27
  Speaker 8: This of his last killing.
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: He shows her laying on the bed gagged.
• 32:33
  Speaker 8: Rader even sketched a drawing of that same victim.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: It was with her eyes open and a very horrified
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: look on her face, and actually reinforcing that she knew
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: of her impending death.
• 32:48
  Speaker 8: Raider is proud to take credit for all of this,
• 32:51
  Speaker 8: but what he didn't want the public to know was
• 32:53
  Speaker 8: how far he took his obsession with bondage. This is Raider.
• 33:00
  Speaker 8: He took these photographs of himself, this one in an
• 33:04
  Speaker 8: open grave he dug for a victim.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: Dennis Raider did not want that evidence to come out.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: He did not want people to see him in a
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: negative light. He wanted people to see him as some
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: gentleman serial killer. We believed that that was totally inappropriate.
• 33:21
  Speaker 8: The killing, the stalking, the fantasy world. Somehow Raider managed
• 33:26
  Speaker 8: to hide it all, even from the woman who thought
• 33:29
  Speaker 8: she knew him best. His wife of thirty three years,
• 33:32
  Speaker 8: paula raider, a bookkeeper. They appeared to be a devoted couple,
• 33:37
  Speaker 8: regularly attending church together. Is it possible that his wife,
• 33:42
  Speaker 8: who lived with him for all those years, truly had
• 33:46
  Speaker 8: no idea he.
• 33:47
  Speaker 7: Was connected to this?
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I'm convinced of it.
• 33:50
  Speaker 7: What makes you say that.
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: I've talked to that woman, just to be honest, is
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: a very very nice woman, a saint.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: She is totally devastated.
• 34:00
  Speaker 6: I've talked to his daughter, a wonderful, wonderful young woman,
• 34:05
  Speaker 6: totally devastated by the actress of this man.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: They had no idea.
• 34:09
  Speaker 8: How would his wife not have any idea that she
• 34:13
  Speaker 8: was living with a serial killer in.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: A thirty year period.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: He disappeared for ten nights in a thirty year period,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: probably less than a lot of men in America.
• 34:24
  Speaker 7: But he hid so much stuff in the house.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: And he was pretty neat he had, He kept it neat,
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: he kept it orderly. A lot of this stuff was
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: at his workplace. And he's such a control freak. Maybe
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: this the relationship he had with his wife. Don't be
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: touching my things.
• 34:42
  Speaker 8: Why didn't Rayder target his wife? He looked shocked when
• 34:45
  Speaker 8: I asked him that question, he said he didn't kill anyone.
• 34:49
  Speaker 8: He knew that his victims were just objects. He did say, however,
• 34:54
  Speaker 8: that his wife was terrified of BTK, and that he
• 34:57
  Speaker 8: once reassured her by telling her to keep all the
• 35:00
  Speaker 8: windows and doors locked. I wasn't really worried, he told me,
• 35:04
  Speaker 8: since I knew I was the one doing all the.
• 35:07
  Speaker 7: Killing, I'll take care of that.
• 35:08
  Speaker 8: Steve Osborne believes that even if no one had discovered
• 35:12
  Speaker 8: his well kept secret, Dennis Raider, dogcatcher, scout leader, church president,
• 35:18
  Speaker 8: was planning to one day take credit for becoming BTK.
• 35:23
  Speaker 16: I think this was his life's work and he wanted
• 35:25
  Speaker 16: basically to take a bow for it. I mean, this
• 35:28
  Speaker 16: is who he was, this is what he did. I
• 35:31
  Speaker 16: don't think that he was going to go to the
• 35:32
  Speaker 16: grave without taking.
• 35:33
  Speaker 9: A bow for this.
• 35:35
  Speaker 7: What do you hope happens to Dennis Raider at this point?
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I hope he's incarcerated for the rest of his life,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: which he will be, and that we never have to
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: hear from him again.
• 35:56
  Speaker 11: It is shun person within our community suffering from a
• 36:01
  Speaker 11: mentality disorder leading toward to fetish.
• 36:08
  Speaker 8: For those in Wichita who lived through three decades of
• 36:11
  Speaker 8: fear and grief.
• 36:15
  Speaker 13: It's like a war has ended and there's not really
• 36:17
  Speaker 13: a victory, but the war's over.
• 36:20
  Speaker 8: Today is a day they never thought they'd see. Dennis
• 36:24
  Speaker 8: Rader is about to be sentenced for his crimes.
• 36:27
  Speaker 10: I could see it in his eyes and his face.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: This guy is an animal and he's a monster.
• 36:37
  Speaker 8: To make sure Rader is put in prison for life,
• 36:40
  Speaker 8: the state must present evidence of his killings.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: After we had heard what she had went through. I
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: know for me, that's when I decided that I couldn't
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: be strong enough for her to sit through everything that
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I had to to get to the end of it.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: That's the least I can do for her.
• 36:58
  Speaker 8: For it, Stephen ralph it is a memory he has
• 37:04
  Speaker 8: tried so hard to forget.
• 37:12
  Speaker 11: I see the same thing all my life, my mom
• 37:15
  Speaker 11: laying there on that bed.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: And you looking over that door.
• 37:26
  Speaker 8: Until now, this is the only way Steve Ralphord could
• 37:29
  Speaker 8: release the anger and grief he has known since his
• 37:33
  Speaker 8: mother was killed by raider in nineteen seventy seven.
• 37:36
  Speaker 7: Will it be over after the sentencing for you?
• 37:38
  Speaker 11: No, it will never. Never'll be over, ma'am, never until
• 37:43
  Speaker 11: this son of a bitch is dead. My mom was
• 37:47
  Speaker 11: my life.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Man, he took it from me.
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: What is satisfying for you?
• 38:00
  Speaker 8: The morning, with the sentencing about to begin, Ralphord and
• 38:04
  Speaker 8: the other families arrived to finally confront the man who
• 38:08
  Speaker 8: caused them all so much pain.
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: I've waited forteen years. I want him to hear my spayment.
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: I want him to hear what I have to say.
• 38:15
  Speaker 8: District Attorney Nola Fulston hopes to expose the real man
• 38:18
  Speaker 8: behind the killer who was invisible and once seemed invincible.
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: This is a man who is twisted and the community
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: needed to see that.
• 38:31
  Speaker 11: All right.
• 38:34
  Speaker 8: It is a day and a half of my numbing testimony.
• 38:38
  Speaker 6: He strangled her by kying the rope tightly around her neck,
• 38:41
  Speaker 6: put a plastic bag over her head.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Did missus Davis put up any resistance or fight.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: There was nothing that she could do.
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: When he stated that, it took approximately two to three
• 38:54
  Speaker 6: minutes for her and she felt no more pain.
• 39:00
  Speaker 8: Finally, my name is Charlie Otoll. My name's Beverly Platt.
• 39:04
  Speaker 8: The families get their chance to speak.
• 39:07
  Speaker 13: I want him to suffer as much as he made
• 39:11
  Speaker 13: his victims suffer.
• 39:13
  Speaker 8: Although we have never met, you have seen my face before.
• 39:17
  Speaker 8: It is the same face you.
• 39:18
  Speaker 6: Murdered over thirty years ago, the face of my mother,
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: Julio Tarroll.
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: For the last five three hundred and twenty six days,
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: I have wanted what it would be like to confront
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: the walking cesspool that took my mother's precious life. If
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: I had your devil nature, I would delight in the
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: fact that your congregation has turned its back on you,
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: that your wife has divorced you, that your own children
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: have disowned you. You have now lost everything and you
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: will forever remain nothing. Thank you, your honor.
• 39:48
  Speaker 11: My name is Steve Elford.
• 39:50
  Speaker 8: Shirley byan my mother after waiting twenty eight years for
• 39:54
  Speaker 8: this moment.
• 39:55
  Speaker 11: I'd dislike for him to suffer for the rest of
• 39:59
  Speaker 11: his life.
• 40:00
  Speaker 8: Words fail, Steve Ralford.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: No, so, your honor, my name is Bill Waggerly.
• 40:19
  Speaker 8: Bill Weggerly too, is overwhelmed as his daughter speaks from
• 40:24
  Speaker 8: her broken heart.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: It's been almost nineteen years now that my brother and
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I had the most important woman in our lives taken
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: from us. It's not fair that we had so little
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: time with her. It's not fair that she doesn't get
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: to see me with her grandchildren. My mother begged for
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: her life. Yeah, he showed no remorse.
• 40:48
  Speaker 8: If the families hope to see that remorse from Dennis
• 40:51
  Speaker 8: Raider today, they didn't get it. Some of them weren't
• 40:56
  Speaker 8: even willing to sit and hear him speak and simply
• 40:59
  Speaker 8: walked out.
• 41:03
  Speaker 11: And you were okay.
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: You know, the victims' families will ever be able to
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: forgive me.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: I hope somewhere keep down. Eventually that will happen.
• 41:14
  Speaker 8: When he finally apologizes.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Final apologize to the victims' families. There's no way that
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: I can ever repay him.
• 41:25
  Speaker 8: His closing words bring hollow.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: It's pitiable for mister Rader to stand here looking all
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: pail a pasty and say how sorry he is.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: You know, gosh, I'm really sorry. Well, what else do
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: you say after you kill ten people?
• 41:43
  Speaker 8: At the time of the murders, Kansas had no death penalty.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: You, Denis L.
• 41:47
  Speaker 13: Rader be taken by the Sheriff of Cedric.
• 41:49
  Speaker 8: So the judge gave Raider the maximum sentence, one hundred
• 41:53
  Speaker 8: and seventy five years.
• 41:54
  Speaker 7: They're coming down the road.
• 41:56
  Speaker 16: They're now on prison property, and if.
• 41:58
  Speaker 8: The families get their way, Dennis Raider and bt K
• 42:02
  Speaker 8: will just fade into the past.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I hope that people will not correspond with him, have
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: anything to do with him that would probably be a
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: greater suffering to him than if he was put to
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: death or tortured or whatever else.