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How Dyslexia Works · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works
0:04
Speaker 1: dot Com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
0:13
Speaker 1: There's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there, and there's Jerry
0:16
Speaker 1: And this is Stuff you Should Know about dyslexia. How
0:20
Speaker 1: are you doing good? Good? How are you? I'm doing
0:23
Speaker 1: pretty good man, just you know, hanging out over here. Yeah,
0:28
Speaker 1: ready to wrap. I thought this is pretty cool. I'm
0:31
Speaker 1: surprised that we had not discussed this yet because it's
0:35
Speaker 1: right upart alley totally very stuff you should know type show. Um,
0:40
Speaker 1: and I think it's an interesting uh you know, I
0:44
Speaker 1: guess it's labeled a learning disorder most most definitely it's
0:48
Speaker 1: a specific learning disorder according to the US government. Yeah.
0:52
Speaker 1: I always just have a hard time, what you know,
0:54
Speaker 1: knowing whether or not to like almost aid affliction them, like,
0:57
Speaker 1: is that an affliction? I don't even know. I think
1:00
Speaker 1: it's I think anybody with dyslexia and anybody, any expert
1:03
Speaker 1: in the field would say it's a learning disability. It's
1:06
Speaker 1: a specific learning disability that um that we're not entirely
1:11
Speaker 1: certain what causes it, but most people would tell you
1:15
Speaker 1: that typically it's considered a neurobiological condition. They think that
1:20
Speaker 1: there's a basis to the brain that leads to this
1:24
Speaker 1: situation where otherwise um bright and um yep and intelligent
1:32
Speaker 1: students have what they call unexpected difficulty learning to read
1:37
Speaker 1: and that it afflicts them their entire life. But there's
1:41
Speaker 1: a lot of questions that's surround the definition. And one
1:45
Speaker 1: of the problems with dyslexia research is that that's that's
1:49
Speaker 1: that's not the official definition. There's about as many definitions
1:53
Speaker 1: as there are studies of dyslexia. Yeah, this one from
1:56
Speaker 1: Yale Center for Dyslexia and Creativity made sense to me
1:59
Speaker 1: that as far as just sort of a simple way
2:02
Speaker 1: to say it, uh, an unexpected difficulty in reading in
2:05
Speaker 1: an individual who has the intelligence to be a much
2:08
Speaker 1: better reader. So in other words, like this isn't adding up.
2:12
Speaker 1: All the tools are there, um, and you should be
2:16
Speaker 1: a better reader than you are, but you're not. So
2:19
Speaker 1: why what gives? Yeah, So there's um, there's there's a
2:24
Speaker 1: lot too that though, right, Like, there's this idea that
2:29
Speaker 1: if if we know enough about the brain and we
2:31
Speaker 1: have things like m r S and stuff like that,
2:33
Speaker 1: so you would think that by now, since maybe the
2:36
Speaker 1: nineties or whatever, we would have positively identified what it is.
2:39
Speaker 1: But there's a confounding problem that they've run into and
2:42
Speaker 1: dyslexic read dyslexia research and we'll get into it more later,
2:47
Speaker 1: but they haven't figured out if what they're looking at
2:50
Speaker 1: is the changes that would come from not reading as much, UM,
2:57
Speaker 1: or if the brain structure there's is actually dyslexia. Right,
3:03
Speaker 1: So they're having trouble with it. I'll explain it better later. No,
3:06
Speaker 1: but I know what you mean. Well, good as long
3:07
Speaker 1: as you do. But it also counts if like the
3:09
Speaker 1: million or so people listening to this also do uh, hey, everybody,
3:14
Speaker 1: dyslexia is very um studying it and understanding it and
3:20
Speaker 1: UM learning how to teach children with dyslexia is very
3:24
Speaker 1: important because up until semi recently, I'm just gonna go
3:28
Speaker 1: say recently, if you were had dyslexia and you are
3:32
Speaker 1: a student, UM, you might have been called stupid or
3:35
Speaker 1: dumb and you might have been Yeah, you might have
3:38
Speaker 1: been put at a separate table and said, well you
3:42
Speaker 1: go here because we you can't keep up. UM this
3:46
Speaker 1: one guy, man, this one really hit home or not
3:49
Speaker 1: hit home, but UM hit you in the bread basket
3:52
Speaker 1: in the bread basket, which is like home um pull it.
3:56
Speaker 1: Pulletzer Prize winner Philip Schultz was diagnosed later in life,
4:00
Speaker 1: and he said, growing up in the nineteen fifties, he
4:03
Speaker 1: he said, basically he was placed in what he called
4:05
Speaker 1: the dummy class. Three children in his class were separated,
4:09
Speaker 1: put at a table in the corner. The teacher didn't
4:11
Speaker 1: talk to them much. And essentially one day, like the
4:14
Speaker 1: principle was coming around and she said, here these books,
4:18
Speaker 1: pretend to read them, right, the principles coming Yeah. Man,
4:22
Speaker 1: that is just tough. But there's something really significant about
4:25
Speaker 1: that that that was a column written by a guy
4:29
Speaker 1: named Philip Schultz who was a Pulitz Surprise winner. So
4:33
Speaker 1: that really kind of reveals the fact that what they
4:36
Speaker 1: figured out through decades and decades of research is that
4:40
Speaker 1: people with dyslexia aren't stupid. They specifically have trouble learning
4:45
Speaker 1: to read and spell and write, and more and more
4:49
Speaker 1: research has kind of gotten to the root of their
4:51
Speaker 1: the problems with dyslexia. But we have found that with
4:56
Speaker 1: patients and practice, people with dyslexia can learn to read.
5:01
Speaker 1: You have dyslexia your entire life, there's no cure for it,
5:05
Speaker 1: but you can learn to read, and you can learn
5:08
Speaker 1: to navigate and cope with dyslexia as a child and
5:12
Speaker 1: into adulthood. Yeah, And I don't want to certainly don't
5:15
Speaker 1: want to sound like I'm bagging on teachers, because you know,
5:17
Speaker 1: both of my parents were teachers, and uh, even back
5:20
Speaker 1: in the day when you know, let me just say this, Uh,
5:25
Speaker 1: teachers back then didn't have the same tools that they
5:28
Speaker 1: have today, and they didn't have an understanding of dyslexia.
5:32
Speaker 1: So if they had students that weren't keeping up and
5:35
Speaker 1: uh would force the class to maybe lag behind. They
5:38
Speaker 1: may not have made the best decisions, but they didn't
5:42
Speaker 1: have all the tools at their disposal to make better decisions. Right.
5:45
Speaker 1: The presence of a kid with dyslexia in a class
5:47
Speaker 1: creates a conundrum. Do you slow the class down to
5:51
Speaker 1: that kid's speed and um as far as like reading
5:55
Speaker 1: and spelling and writing lessons go um uh, potentially risking
6:01
Speaker 1: like slowing down the rest of the class who are
6:03
Speaker 1: learning at a normal clip. Or do you take this
6:06
Speaker 1: guy with dyslexia, this girl with dyslexia and put them
6:09
Speaker 1: in a special needs class that may address their reading
6:14
Speaker 1: and writing, but they're going to get so far behind
6:17
Speaker 1: their classmates and every other subject that they're normally proficient at.
6:22
Speaker 1: It's a problem, and they had no idea how to
6:24
Speaker 1: how to grapple with it for almost all of the
6:27
Speaker 1: twentieth century and multiple generations of kids with dyslexia suffered
6:31
Speaker 1: as a result. Yeah, it's really sad. Um. There are
6:34
Speaker 1: a lot of symptoms for dyslexia, key symptoms, uh, and
6:38
Speaker 1: these are very important because there is no blood tests,
6:41
Speaker 1: there is no there's no even I mean, there are
6:44
Speaker 1: a lot of testing they can do, but that there's
6:46
Speaker 1: no standardized, specific tests that will really nail it down, right,
6:50
Speaker 1: So so keep that in mind. There's no there's no
6:53
Speaker 1: official definition of dyslexia, and there's no specific tests to
6:59
Speaker 1: suss out dysleke, right, two big problems. Yeah, so you
7:02
Speaker 1: gotta look at this collection of symptoms. Um. The first
7:05
Speaker 1: obvious one is slow reading and accurate reading. Difficulty sounding
7:09
Speaker 1: out words, UM, difficulty pronouncing longer words with multiple syllables,
7:14
Speaker 1: which we'll get to that in a bit. UM. Inability
7:18
Speaker 1: to read or speak made up nonsense words, which I
7:22
Speaker 1: thought was interesting, poor short term memory, for verbal information,
7:26
Speaker 1: whether it's written or spoken spoken. Uh, poor spelling, like
7:31
Speaker 1: really poor spelling, to where you sometimes can't even tell
7:34
Speaker 1: what the words they're trying to spell are, right, not
7:36
Speaker 1: not just like you know, like using an F instead
7:39
Speaker 1: of a pH or something like that. Yeah, And we
7:41
Speaker 1: should also point out too, that is it's very much
7:44
Speaker 1: an incorrect notion that if you have dyslexi you just
7:46
Speaker 1: transpose letters or spell things backwards. That's what I thought
7:49
Speaker 1: for most of my life dyslexia was people they spelled
7:53
Speaker 1: things backwards and that was that, and that they also
7:55
Speaker 1: read backwards, and that they could train themselves to read
8:00
Speaker 1: things backwards. Totally made up. It's not totally made up,
8:04
Speaker 1: but it's so such a such a just a one
8:07
Speaker 1: component of dyslexia that it might as well just be
8:10
Speaker 1: an urban legend. Yeah, totally um. And then what this
8:14
Speaker 1: can lead to it's not just like, oh I have
8:17
Speaker 1: trouble reading like that. That spills out into all aspects
8:20
Speaker 1: of life, whether it's your self esteem, or you might
8:24
Speaker 1: have problem with with directions directionally, you might have issue
8:29
Speaker 1: with your budgets or money items, or you might not
8:32
Speaker 1: can tell time, very well, frustrated, anger, difficulty planning things.
8:38
Speaker 1: It's not just limited to reading issues. And then in
8:41
Speaker 1: real life you, um, you might read something and have
8:46
Speaker 1: very little recollection of what you just read. Um, you
8:50
Speaker 1: you will probably have problems giving presentations, finding the right word,
8:55
Speaker 1: recalling words, that kind of thing. Um. When you do read,
8:59
Speaker 1: and when you learn to read, you will be reading
9:01
Speaker 1: slower than anybody else, even reading at your reading level. Um,
9:06
Speaker 1: you just do it more slowly. And then as an adult,
9:10
Speaker 1: a lot of people are like, oh, good god, I'm
9:12
Speaker 1: done with school. Let me just go off and find
9:14
Speaker 1: a job that doesn't require any reading or any writing,
9:17
Speaker 1: and I will be fine. I will go to restaurants
9:20
Speaker 1: in order the same thing at every restaurant, and um,
9:23
Speaker 1: if this routine that I've developed to mask my dyslexia
9:27
Speaker 1: is ever interrupted, I will flip out and try to
9:30
Speaker 1: keep it under control, but I will seem a little
9:32
Speaker 1: awkward socially during instances like this. There's ways you can
9:37
Speaker 1: carve out a life for yourself. But you don't have to,
9:40
Speaker 1: because now we understand dyslexia way more than we did before,
9:44
Speaker 1: and we understand the treatment of it too. Yeah, and
9:46
Speaker 1: as far as how many people have it it's it's
9:48
Speaker 1: tough to get UM because of all these reasons we're
9:50
Speaker 1: talking about to have to get a good number that's reliable.
9:53
Speaker 1: But anywhere between five and fifteen to seventeen percent, it
9:58
Speaker 1: looks like UM would is sort of it's not the
10:01
Speaker 1: biggest range in the world. But they don't really know, no,
10:04
Speaker 1: they have they have no idea because there's a couple
10:06
Speaker 1: of problems. One, there's a lot of people out there
10:08
Speaker 1: who don't realize they have dyslexia UM. And then there's
10:12
Speaker 1: a lot of people who do know they have dyslexia
10:13
Speaker 1: in are either ashamed of it or have just set
10:16
Speaker 1: up their life to where they don't have time or
10:19
Speaker 1: room to go be diagnosed and then go learn to
10:23
Speaker 1: overcome it. There's just like, whatever, I have this thing,
10:26
Speaker 1: this issue where I'm slower at reading than other people. UM. So, yeah,
10:30
Speaker 1: it's probably very much underreported and underestimated how many people
10:35
Speaker 1: in the population have at Yeah, and we're talking mainly about,
10:38
Speaker 1: almost exclusively about developmental dyslexia, which is, you know, the
10:44
Speaker 1: kind we mostly think about. We're not talking about acquired dyslexia,
10:47
Speaker 1: which is can happen as a result of an injury um,
10:51
Speaker 1: so just want to point that out. Well, let's take
10:53
Speaker 1: a break and then we'll come back and talk about
10:55
Speaker 1: the history that actually features both of those. Okay, yes, sir,
11:27
Speaker 1: so Chuck. The first time the word dyslexia was used
11:30
Speaker 1: was in eight two by an ophthalmologist named Rudolph Berlin,
11:35
Speaker 1: who coined the term dyslexia. But the case that he
11:39
Speaker 1: was describing was a case of acquired dyslexia, where you
11:43
Speaker 1: can you can develop the symptoms of dyslexia, trouble reading,
11:47
Speaker 1: trouble writing, trouble um sounding out words from a head
11:51
Speaker 1: injury or say a lesion on your brain, something like that.
11:55
Speaker 1: And that told them a lot, right it really. Initially
11:59
Speaker 1: they thought maybe it was just a sign of low intelligence,
12:03
Speaker 1: maybe it was a problem with vision or something like that.
12:05
Speaker 1: But the fact that you could acquire dyslexia told um
12:09
Speaker 1: neurologists and optimologists working in the nineteenth century, No, this
12:14
Speaker 1: is a this is a there's a neurobiological basis to this. Yeah.
12:18
Speaker 1: And they called it early on um in the nineteenth century,
12:21
Speaker 1: and I guess even in the early twentieth century. Well,
12:24
Speaker 1: actually they called it that up until the sixties. Yeah.
12:26
Speaker 1: The sixties, um word blindness, and they it was a
12:29
Speaker 1: German who who coined that term, and they called it
12:34
Speaker 1: vart blind height. Can you say that that's good? Okay,
12:38
Speaker 1: you would do it only better than well, I would
12:40
Speaker 1: put on some dumb voice. But that's perfect pronunciation. You
12:43
Speaker 1: said that it's a w right, Yeah, and you said
12:46
Speaker 1: it as a va perfect Okay, click my heels together
12:51
Speaker 1: and said it checks out, Dorothy. Um. So they called it,
12:56
Speaker 1: like you said, up into the sixties, congenital word blindness. Uh,
12:59
Speaker 1: there a lot of people in the late eight d
13:02
Speaker 1: or not a lot, but a handful of people studying
13:03
Speaker 1: the stuff. Henschelwood and were the two big ones. Yeah,
13:07
Speaker 1: and they were optimologists and a doctor um Henschelwood was
13:12
Speaker 1: the optimologist and they and then there were also neurologist,
13:15
Speaker 1: a man named Samuel Orton and uh they they it's
13:20
Speaker 1: interesting to look back because they were sort of on
13:23
Speaker 1: the right track with how they what they thought was wrong. Yeah.
13:26
Speaker 1: Word blindness also as a term, is not that not
13:30
Speaker 1: that far off? Yeah? I mean it really does a
13:32
Speaker 1: good job describinting the thing because they're saying, like there's
13:35
Speaker 1: some condition that these people have specifically because there are
13:39
Speaker 1: otherwise totally intelligent. They're just they have a problem with words,
13:43
Speaker 1: with seeing words and recognizing them like everybody else can. Yeah,
13:48
Speaker 1: And it was obviously since the dawn of time people
13:51
Speaker 1: have had this condition, but it didn't obviously if you
13:55
Speaker 1: think about it, there are a lot of things that
13:56
Speaker 1: came along that really brought it into the forefront, like printing,
14:01
Speaker 1: widespread literacy. Yeah, newspapers and books and street signs exactly,
14:06
Speaker 1: menus like you're saying in a restaurant. Yeah, Like like
14:08
Speaker 1: everywhere there's the printed word and all of this. As
14:12
Speaker 1: all of this started to emerge in like the second
14:15
Speaker 1: half of the nineteenth century, at least in the United
14:17
Speaker 1: States and in the Western europe um, all of a sudden,
14:21
Speaker 1: people who had dyslexia suddenly became apparent. Whereas before this
14:27
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been a parent because there was no
14:29
Speaker 1: way for dyslexia to manifest itself. People didn't walk around reading.
14:34
Speaker 1: You weren't expected to learn to read and write as
14:36
Speaker 1: a kid. You had to be like basically a monk
14:39
Speaker 1: to to learn to read and write or part of
14:41
Speaker 1: like the aristocracy. Now it became democratized in public schooling
14:46
Speaker 1: became widespread, and so as a result, dyslexia became a
14:49
Speaker 1: thing for the very first time. It's actually a relatively
14:52
Speaker 1: new condition that was born out of the modern era. Yeah,
14:55
Speaker 1: or if you were a kid back then then you uh,
14:58
Speaker 1: they were trying to teach your reading. You could and
15:00
Speaker 1: you were you were just they were like, all right, well,
15:02
Speaker 1: I guess he's not a reader, so get out to
15:04
Speaker 1: the factory of the field and don't worry about it.
15:07
Speaker 1: But the that was what Morgan, like w Pringle Morrigan
15:11
Speaker 1: and James Henchelwood were doing was they were the first
15:13
Speaker 1: ones to say, wait, wait, wait, get that kid out
15:16
Speaker 1: of the field, because he seems otherwise bright to me.
15:19
Speaker 1: He just is having trouble reading. This might just be
15:22
Speaker 1: a thing. So they were the first ones to say, no,
15:24
Speaker 1: this is its own thing. This isn't just being being
15:27
Speaker 1: generally slow. This is a specific learning disability, right. Uh.
15:32
Speaker 1: Samuel Orton, the neurologists I mentioned, he created the Orton
15:36
Speaker 1: Society in nineteen forty nine. Um, they were researchers and teachers, uh,
15:42
Speaker 1: trying to figure out like, all right, we know this
15:43
Speaker 1: is a problem. Now how do we go about teaching
15:45
Speaker 1: kids like this and that eventually led to the International
15:49
Speaker 1: Dyslexia Association. Um, but it really took until the like
15:54
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. That was a book written by McDonald
15:59
Speaker 1: Critchley called The Ayslexic Child, And that's when things really
16:02
Speaker 1: started to come to the forefront more. Yeah, they started
16:05
Speaker 1: to realize, oh wait, you can teach kids with dyslexia
16:09
Speaker 1: how to read, so maybe we should start doing that,
16:11
Speaker 1: right And here are here are the symptoms and the
16:14
Speaker 1: signs of dyslexia, and let's let's take it seriously in
16:17
Speaker 1: the general education system. Yeah. And one of the interesting
16:20
Speaker 1: things that they learned, uh, they have learned over the
16:23
Speaker 1: years is part of the problem, at least in the
16:26
Speaker 1: case of English, is that it's a really tough language
16:30
Speaker 1: to learn, extraordinarily tough, and it matters if you have dyslexia.
16:34
Speaker 1: When compared to Italian, it says English has over a
16:36
Speaker 1: thousand ways to spell it's basic set of forty uh
16:40
Speaker 1: phonological sounds. Italian has twenty five speech sounds speech sounds
16:46
Speaker 1: and only thirty three ways to spell them. So incidences
16:50
Speaker 1: of dyslexia, while they may be the same technically in Italy,
16:56
Speaker 1: kids don't have as much of a problem in Italy. Yeah,
16:58
Speaker 1: like thinking about this, so that short E sound you
17:03
Speaker 1: can spell it ai as in said EO is in leopard,
17:07
Speaker 1: You is in Barry, I E is in friend. Okay,
17:12
Speaker 1: it is tough. But what you're doing is when you're
17:15
Speaker 1: when you're spelling those things, you're you're encoding a sound.
17:20
Speaker 1: A phoneeme is what it's called. And like you said,
17:23
Speaker 1: in English, we have forty phonemes. And when you spell,
17:27
Speaker 1: when you read, your encoding and decoding a phoneme. And
17:30
Speaker 1: we have attached phone emes onto specific things out in
17:34
Speaker 1: real life. Leopard, right, if you can spell leopard, you
17:38
Speaker 1: can write down that word, and you can create a
17:41
Speaker 1: leopard in somebody else's mind's eye by reading it. Okay,
17:45
Speaker 1: this is all spectacular that we can do this, but
17:47
Speaker 1: it's a totally human construct. If you have dyslexia, you're
17:52
Speaker 1: the ground problem that that is the basis of your
17:56
Speaker 1: condition is you have trouble sorting through phonemes. You have
18:00
Speaker 1: trouble um with what's called phonological awareness, where you hear
18:06
Speaker 1: in part as two separate distinct sounds that you can
18:11
Speaker 1: learn to spell and learn to write. You you can't
18:15
Speaker 1: sort them sometimes they run together. It's a it's a
18:19
Speaker 1: problem on the very basis of reading, writing, spelling, the phonology.
18:25
Speaker 1: You have trouble. Your brain has trouble processing it and
18:29
Speaker 1: sorting it. That's the basis of dyslexia. So if you
18:32
Speaker 1: are a kid with dyslexia in in learning English with
18:36
Speaker 1: as difficult as it is, where there's all these different
18:38
Speaker 1: rules for the same phoneme, it's gonna be way harder
18:42
Speaker 1: than it isn't something like Italian, like you're saying, Yeah,
18:44
Speaker 1: And as a result, as you would imagine, learning a
18:47
Speaker 1: second language if you have dyslexia is really tough. But
18:50
Speaker 1: they have found that Italian is can almost be like
18:55
Speaker 1: a therapy, a training like jam camp for learning really interesting, Yeah,
19:00
Speaker 1: because you learn, Oh there's rules with certain things, but
19:02
Speaker 1: these are really basic rules and they make sense. So
19:05
Speaker 1: maybe now I can learn English UM a little more
19:08
Speaker 1: easily with the expectation that the rules are structurally the same.
19:13
Speaker 1: But they're just different for English than they are for Italian.
19:16
Speaker 1: In nuance, but ultimately they're getting across the same stuff. Yeah,
19:20
Speaker 1: the the whole concept of language and um and symbols, e,
19:26
Speaker 1: letters and words, it's just fascinating to me, endlessly fascinating. Yeah,
19:32
Speaker 1: because again and the humans like creating this and saying
19:35
Speaker 1: that thing of it there. If you draw these symbols
19:38
Speaker 1: in this order, that's what that is. So that leopard like,
19:41
Speaker 1: that's and then the word leopard like. Yeah, it's just
19:45
Speaker 1: all fascinating. It is because you're encapsulating knowledge that can
19:48
Speaker 1: be shared later on, can be unlocked later on by
19:51
Speaker 1: anyone who understands how to decode it in the same way. Yeah,
19:54
Speaker 1: what's the science? Uh? What was it called? When you
19:58
Speaker 1: study that linguists? Is it just linguistics? I'm pretty sure
20:02
Speaker 1: I could have been a linguist if I had only
20:04
Speaker 1: known what it was called. I just realized happy thing
20:10
Speaker 1: that would have dumped them. What's that thing called? Yeah?
20:13
Speaker 1: I could have been good at that? Yeah, yeah I couldn't.
20:15
Speaker 1: It was on the tip of my tongue. So um,
20:19
Speaker 1: I guess we can talk about the the fm R
20:21
Speaker 1: I and the m R I. Obviously, the Wonder Machine
20:24
Speaker 1: figures in pretty big when it comes to this kind
20:27
Speaker 1: of thing, and in the mid nineties is about when
20:30
Speaker 1: the fm R I came on the scene. With dyslexia
20:33
Speaker 1: and studies with dyslexia once they one of the problems
20:37
Speaker 1: was little kids. They're like, oh, we can't throw them
20:39
Speaker 1: in there, that they will explode their brain. And then
20:42
Speaker 1: they're like, oh no, the fm r I machine is
20:44
Speaker 1: fine for kids. We tested it out on some bad
20:47
Speaker 1: kids and they were fine, and so they started putting
20:50
Speaker 1: children in there. Um, because you could obviously do this
20:53
Speaker 1: at any age, but it's important for school aged children,
20:57
Speaker 1: um to like figure out what's going on in their brains. Well,
21:00
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why that's the sample population
21:04
Speaker 1: is because it takes years for dyslexia to be prominent.
21:11
Speaker 1: Every kid has problems learning, reading, and writing at first,
21:15
Speaker 1: but then as other kids progress and this one kid doesn't,
21:19
Speaker 1: but there are otherwise bright same socioeconomic opportunities and all
21:23
Speaker 1: that stuff. Um, that's when it becomes possible that they
21:27
Speaker 1: have dyslexia. But by that time a couple more years
21:30
Speaker 1: have gone by, right, So you're not you're not testing
21:34
Speaker 1: for dyslexia on babies. You have to wait until it
21:38
Speaker 1: basically manifests itself. Yeah, And of course with the f
21:41
Speaker 1: m R I they I think there was some hope
21:44
Speaker 1: that it could Like you mentioned earlier, just be like, well,
21:46
Speaker 1: there it is, but you know it wasn't. It wasn't
21:49
Speaker 1: as they you know, different regions of the brain would
21:52
Speaker 1: light up or not light up, but they didn't get
21:54
Speaker 1: any hard like pinpointing conclusions. No, they have kind of
21:58
Speaker 1: focused in on a few spots, like different studies have said,
22:02
Speaker 1: this is what we found, and it actually correlates with
22:05
Speaker 1: other studies too. There's um left hemisphere areas, the ventral
22:09
Speaker 1: occipito temporal region, the temporal parietal reagion, and the inferior
22:14
Speaker 1: frontal cortices which have to do with language processing, but
22:19
Speaker 1: also visual processing of language too. Yeah. So again they
22:25
Speaker 1: think that the basis of all of this is that
22:27
Speaker 1: when you're hearing sounds, when somebody's holding up a piece
22:31
Speaker 1: of bread that has been dried through heat and says toast,
22:37
Speaker 1: you're hearing toast, and you can learn to write T
22:41
Speaker 1: O A it's a little confounding, and then st over time,
22:46
Speaker 1: maybe the first few times you write t O E
22:49
Speaker 1: S T, it doesn't matter. You're going to learn to
22:52
Speaker 1: write T O A S T and you can write
22:54
Speaker 1: it down and then someone else can read it. And
22:56
Speaker 1: they think of toast with dyslexia you're not hearing to
23:01
Speaker 1: your your you, and you certainly can't extrapolate something that
23:04
Speaker 1: you're not hearing correctly into words and letters. Yeah, yeah, Okay,
23:09
Speaker 1: it's a good way to put it. The tost analogy there,
23:12
Speaker 1: you got, Uh, there is a genetic component. Um, you
23:15
Speaker 1: are likely, if you have dyslexi to also have other
23:18
Speaker 1: family members who have it. And they have isolated some
23:21
Speaker 1: genes associated with it. But again they haven't been like
23:25
Speaker 1: here's the cause. Let's just figure out how to switch
23:27
Speaker 1: this gene off or on right, And it's I think
23:30
Speaker 1: it's just correlated. It's not necessarily the cause. It's it's
23:34
Speaker 1: like people who have who have been shown to have
23:36
Speaker 1: dyslexia have these this set of genes that are doing this. Yeah,
23:40
Speaker 1: but what, like I said earlier, what's interesting is those
23:42
Speaker 1: early doctors weren't super far off. It does have to
23:47
Speaker 1: do with visual processing of this linguistic information, and they
23:52
Speaker 1: were on the right track even way back then, so
23:55
Speaker 1: not bad. And then even still though with this new
23:58
Speaker 1: understanding of like, ok, this brain region looks like this,
24:01
Speaker 1: this brain region looks like that, this is the sign
24:04
Speaker 1: of a dyslexic brain, there's still the question is this
24:10
Speaker 1: the result of going years and years without reading um?
24:15
Speaker 1: Or is that the structure of a brain with dyslexia,
24:19
Speaker 1: because we know that your brain changes when you read,
24:22
Speaker 1: when you learn to read. They they've done studies in
24:24
Speaker 1: the mri I with um illiterate adults who have learned
24:29
Speaker 1: to read. So they do a scan of them while
24:31
Speaker 1: while they cannot read, and then they scan them again
24:34
Speaker 1: while they can read, and then look for differences in
24:36
Speaker 1: the brain. And there are structural differences that take place
24:40
Speaker 1: in the brain, which makes sense because it makes you think.
24:43
Speaker 1: So in alliterate adult, is that the normal structure of
24:47
Speaker 1: the brain, and an adult that can read, is that
24:50
Speaker 1: an abnormal structure? Because think about it, we've only been
24:53
Speaker 1: doing that for a hundred hundred and fifty years. That's
24:56
Speaker 1: a new constructure. So it makes sense that the brain
24:59
Speaker 1: would be neuroplastic like that in that respect, because that's
25:03
Speaker 1: a new thing we've all started to try to do
25:05
Speaker 1: to alter our brains. Yeah, and that's where the practice
25:08
Speaker 1: part comes in, which we'll get too more. But it's
25:10
Speaker 1: interesting that and it sounds simple, But the better if
25:13
Speaker 1: you have dyslexia, the better you get at reading and writing.
25:16
Speaker 1: The better you will get at reading and writing exactly.
25:19
Speaker 1: You're you're just um, you're strengthening, you're creating new neural
25:23
Speaker 1: connections and the strengthening those pathways. And the fact that
25:27
Speaker 1: it all comes down to apparently patients and practice and
25:32
Speaker 1: that like it's saying, like these kids with dyslexia are
25:36
Speaker 1: going through the same thing that every kid does with
25:38
Speaker 1: with learning to read and write and spell, it just
25:42
Speaker 1: takes them way longer. The fact that generations of kids
25:47
Speaker 1: with dyslexia were just abandoned by the school system because
25:50
Speaker 1: of a lack of patients is really what it comes
25:52
Speaker 1: down to. Is beyond sad patients and resources, I think,
25:56
Speaker 1: and that's part of it. Sure, Yeah, I just don't
25:58
Speaker 1: want to sound like we're saying and like teachers just
26:01
Speaker 1: were impatient about it, all right, It's like, uh, it
26:04
Speaker 1: was complex and still very sad. Yes, that teachers have
26:10
Speaker 1: to buy their own school supplies still gets to me
26:12
Speaker 1: every year. The fact that we're like living with this
26:15
Speaker 1: as a country, like that's just become normal to us,
26:18
Speaker 1: is it's embarrassing. It's just a mark of shame on
26:23
Speaker 1: our country. If you ask me, all right, let's take
26:25
Speaker 1: a break. No I'm gonna go, I'm gonna give you
26:29
Speaker 1: your cat of nine tails so we couldn't flog each other.
26:31
Speaker 1: I realized, I'm I sound really forceful in this episode.
26:34
Speaker 1: Do I feel like I'm sounding forceful? Do I sound forceful?
26:38
Speaker 1: Do I? Well? That did? All right, We'll be right
26:41
Speaker 1: back everyone. Al Right. So, like you said earlier, there
27:13
Speaker 1: is no cure for dyslexia. There is treatment and they
27:18
Speaker 1: even put that in quotes. Um, but you shouldn't think
27:22
Speaker 1: of it as a disease cure type of thing. It's
27:27
Speaker 1: practice and patients. Yeah, and those are the two strategies
27:32
Speaker 1: that we will say it one more time for the
27:34
Speaker 1: tenth time. Patients and practice. Uh, it's you have to
27:40
Speaker 1: have that patience there as a parent, as a teacher,
27:42
Speaker 1: as someone with dyslexia. UM, I know it's frustrating, but
27:48
Speaker 1: the more patient you are give yourself time, teachers can.
27:52
Speaker 1: And then there are programs now where students can get
27:55
Speaker 1: extra time to take tests and things like that. And
27:58
Speaker 1: I think even officially like with the S A T
28:00
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Yeah, UM, there are programs where
28:03
Speaker 1: you are not to put it a disadvantage. There's um,
28:07
Speaker 1: the individuals with disabilities Education Improvement Act of two thousand four,
28:11
Speaker 1: the Idea Acts or idea um IT. It specifies UH
28:16
Speaker 1: dyslexia as a specific learning disorder. And when you have
28:21
Speaker 1: a diagnosis of dyslexia, the whole world opens up to you.
28:25
Speaker 1: You all of a sudden have your own personal teachers
28:27
Speaker 1: assistant working with you. Um. You have all sorts of
28:31
Speaker 1: resources that just weren't available to you before that are
28:34
Speaker 1: being funneled directly toward helping you learn to read faster. Yeah.
28:38
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's across the board. UM. Yeah, I
28:43
Speaker 1: think that schools probably have specific funding for IDEA stuff.
28:48
Speaker 1: I mean, like when when Congress comes up with an
28:50
Speaker 1: act like that, they fund it and then they fund
28:53
Speaker 1: it out of it, like those huge omnibus budgets have
28:56
Speaker 1: funding for that, and that goes to the school and
28:58
Speaker 1: schools supposedly not allowed to spend it on anything but
29:01
Speaker 1: that stuff. So yeah, probably if you get a diagnosis
29:05
Speaker 1: of dyslexia, it's pretty sweet um and a huge relief
29:10
Speaker 1: because all of a sudden, it's just like a brand
29:12
Speaker 1: new world. You're taken away from the dumb kids table,
29:15
Speaker 1: like Howard Schultz was, UM, and all of a sudden,
29:19
Speaker 1: you have your own your own one on one UM
29:23
Speaker 1: reading and spelling lessons that you just didn't have before. Yeah.
29:28
Speaker 1: The other, like we said, is practice. Uh, and over time,
29:34
Speaker 1: you know, you can learn to read UM and you
29:36
Speaker 1: make those new neural pathways and and it's just it's
29:40
Speaker 1: it's hardening to know that if you have this patience
29:43
Speaker 1: and you put in the time, it is something that
29:45
Speaker 1: can be overcome if everyone like works together, right, and
29:50
Speaker 1: if you can learn to read even as an adult,
29:52
Speaker 1: You're you're not going to learn to read necessarily proficiently.
29:55
Speaker 1: I think you can if you really really practice, if
29:57
Speaker 1: you put your mind to it's going to be very slow.
29:59
Speaker 1: But it's not like you'll know ever read a book
30:00
Speaker 1: or something like that. But I saw one woman describing
30:03
Speaker 1: her condition as an adult, and she said she was
30:05
Speaker 1: very proud to be at like a seventh grade reading
30:08
Speaker 1: level now as as an adult, which is like you
30:10
Speaker 1: can navigate through life as with a seventh grade at
30:14
Speaker 1: a seventh grade reading level pretty easy. Um. The problem
30:18
Speaker 1: comes when you don't ever you've never gotten any help
30:21
Speaker 1: and you were basically in a literate adult because of dyslexia. Yeah,
30:27
Speaker 1: they have technology now can help out there what they
30:31
Speaker 1: call assist of listening devices because sometimes if you have
30:35
Speaker 1: someone to ear reading something out loud while you're reading along, UM,
30:38
Speaker 1: sort of like a teacher and an app UM like
30:42
Speaker 1: that one on one experience that can really really help.
30:45
Speaker 1: UM seeing a transcription sometimes of what someone's saying, a
30:49
Speaker 1: real time transcription. Yeah, so all these apps and devices
30:52
Speaker 1: are really helping things along. So it's it's like a
30:55
Speaker 1: brand new world for kids with dyslexia compared to like
30:58
Speaker 1: last century or even a few decades ago. You know. Yeah,
31:02
Speaker 1: the one thing I didn't quite get, what's this thing
31:04
Speaker 1: that you said from Sir Jim Rose. I didn't fully
31:08
Speaker 1: get what this guy was saying. He was part of it.
31:11
Speaker 1: So he's not saying this, he's he's uh, he's definitely
31:14
Speaker 1: all into dyslexia. UM. But there is a a thread
31:20
Speaker 1: um that of of experts in childhood education, psychology, UM,
31:26
Speaker 1: childhood cognition who who suspect that there's no such thing
31:30
Speaker 1: as dyslexia, that those earliest neurologists and ophthalmologists and doctors
31:36
Speaker 1: who who named it and made it a thing, we're wrong,
31:40
Speaker 1: And that really an inability to read transcends any level
31:46
Speaker 1: of intelligence. It's disconnected from intelligence. That no matter whether
31:49
Speaker 1: you are of high intelligence or low intelligence, you can
31:53
Speaker 1: suffer from an inability to learn to read. And so
31:57
Speaker 1: if you have dyslexia and you are of high intelligence,
32:00
Speaker 1: the kid next to you who has low intelligence and
32:03
Speaker 1: can't read also has dyslexia, or there's or else. No
32:08
Speaker 1: one has dyslexia, and it's just an inability to learn
32:10
Speaker 1: to read. Most experts say dyslexia is a thing, which
32:15
Speaker 1: means then the debate is, okay, doesn't have anything to
32:18
Speaker 1: do with intelligence. And if it doesn't have anything to
32:21
Speaker 1: do with intelligence, then all of these resources that are
32:24
Speaker 1: being diverted to these kids who are of high intelligence
32:28
Speaker 1: but are having trouble learning to read is really doing
32:31
Speaker 1: a disservice to the kids of low intelligence. And I'm
32:34
Speaker 1: making air quotes here. Everybody UM who are having trouble
32:38
Speaker 1: learning to read? Why differentiate they're both having trouble learning
32:42
Speaker 1: to read. Start attacking the problem with both of them.
32:45
Speaker 1: And there was this one Australian UM expert who basically said, like, yes,
32:52
Speaker 1: dyslexia is a thing. It is his own thing, has
32:54
Speaker 1: a neurobiological basis. It's not made up. It's not a myth.
32:58
Speaker 1: But let's treat first and then diagnose later. If you
33:02
Speaker 1: see an um an inability to learn to read, go
33:06
Speaker 1: after that. Don't say, well as a dyslexia. Let's test
33:09
Speaker 1: the kids intelligence. It doesn't matter. Focus on learning. How
33:13
Speaker 1: I'm teaching them how to read and apparently interventions. There's
33:16
Speaker 1: this guy named, uh Julian professor Julian Um. What's his name,
33:22
Speaker 1: Chuck Lennon Sands, Yes, Julian Sands in boxing Helena he
33:28
Speaker 1: makes He has a big soliloquy about whether or not
33:31
Speaker 1: dyslexi is a myth. I can't remember the guy's last name,
33:35
Speaker 1: but um. I get the impression that parents of children
33:37
Speaker 1: with dyslexia or not a big fan of this guy,
33:40
Speaker 1: but he's He's basically said, um, we're diverting a lot
33:45
Speaker 1: of funding away from kids who know how to who
33:47
Speaker 1: don't know how to read, just because they don't they
33:49
Speaker 1: supposedly don't have a high I Q UM, Let's treat
33:52
Speaker 1: all the kids. So that's the idea of whether it's
33:55
Speaker 1: a myth, not that dyslexia doesn't exist, although I think
33:57
Speaker 1: some people suspected it didn't for a while it now
34:00
Speaker 1: people believe it does, but not necessarily that it's just
34:04
Speaker 1: intelligent upper middle class kids who have dyslexia. It's just
34:08
Speaker 1: an inability to read for the same reason. Interesting, that's
34:12
Speaker 1: the basis of it. It's still up in the air,
34:14
Speaker 1: and it's a really touchy subject, very touchy subject, um
34:19
Speaker 1: and rightfully so. I mean, like, I can imagine you
34:22
Speaker 1: feel lost in the woods if there's no official diagnosis,
34:25
Speaker 1: there's no official test of it, there's no official definition
34:28
Speaker 1: of it. But your kid has it, and you know
34:31
Speaker 1: your kid has it. I can't imagine why it must
34:34
Speaker 1: feel like to have some expert going like there's no
34:36
Speaker 1: such thing as dyslexia. You know. It is very touchy
34:40
Speaker 1: and rightfully so. Uh Well, Finally, there's this whole notion that, um,
34:45
Speaker 1: if you have dyslexia, then you may excel in other areas. Um,
34:50
Speaker 1: you may be more creative, or you may be more
34:53
Speaker 1: prone to be, like um, an entrepreneur, perhaps because you
34:57
Speaker 1: think outside of the box. Yeah, I mean there's a
35:00
Speaker 1: long list of people, like, you know, famous creative types
35:03
Speaker 1: that have dyslexia, get the Christie. Did you know that one?
35:07
Speaker 1: I didn't, but I didn't either that. You know, I
35:10
Speaker 1: didn't just make it up. I learned there's a long list.
35:12
Speaker 1: But just recently part of this bugs me though, I
35:15
Speaker 1: don't know. I just hate it when they're like, well,
35:17
Speaker 1: look what celebrities have this thing? I mean, I get it.
35:20
Speaker 1: Maybe that it might, I don't know. I just don't
35:24
Speaker 1: see the value in that. Well it's saying like, look
35:26
Speaker 1: at this guy, this guy, this lady. Maybe I guess
35:29
Speaker 1: so she's not a street sweeper. You don't have to spend,
35:31
Speaker 1: you don't have to look forward to a life of
35:33
Speaker 1: shoveling horse maneuver because you have dyslexia. You can't achieve.
35:36
Speaker 1: Just stick to a kid. Now. I get all that,
35:39
Speaker 1: and that's valid. You're questioning the cult of celebrity. Yeah,
35:42
Speaker 1: that's what it was. That just sort of bugs me.
35:44
Speaker 1: But no, there is benefits. I'm sure if some kids
35:46
Speaker 1: like Tom Cruiz has dyslexia and look at him, may
35:50
Speaker 1: may I have had some questions about Zanix and its
35:53
Speaker 1: value myself. Oh goodness. Uh. There have been some studies
35:59
Speaker 1: though over the year. It may or may not support this.
36:01
Speaker 1: Like um supposedly, if you have dyslexia, you may be
36:05
Speaker 1: UM quicker to find Um, something in your peripheral vision.
36:09
Speaker 1: Maybe you can like mc escher style drawings or the
36:13
Speaker 1: impossible images hidden images, you might see those quicker or
36:18
Speaker 1: more easily find patterns in in noise, like you could
36:23
Speaker 1: be a great data analysts perhaps, And they think like
36:27
Speaker 1: and this makes total sense, But the problem is as
36:29
Speaker 1: its anecdotal at this point, but it makes total sense
36:32
Speaker 1: that yes, you're you're the same senses that you were
36:36
Speaker 1: using to read and write. If you don't know how
36:39
Speaker 1: to read and write, your brain is going to compensate
36:42
Speaker 1: with other things, is going to possibly excel at other stuff,
36:45
Speaker 1: just because it's structure different If your brain is structured differently,
36:48
Speaker 1: which we know that's the case, if you do not
36:52
Speaker 1: read or write, Uh, you would expect that it would
36:56
Speaker 1: manifest itself in real world behaviors and traits. Well. Yeah,
37:00
Speaker 1: and the first thing I thought was like, yeah, totally,
37:01
Speaker 1: Like if your vision impaired, you you hear things better.
37:04
Speaker 1: Well supposedly that's a myth. Well I looked it up. Um,
37:07
Speaker 1: there are studies where if you were vision impaired, you
37:10
Speaker 1: are better at pinpointing like location of sound and certain sounds.
37:14
Speaker 1: But it's not you can't hear something two miles away. Yeah,
37:17
Speaker 1: it's not as cut and dry. It's just can't hear
37:19
Speaker 1: there better because like your ears developed better. You know,
37:22
Speaker 1: you remember that guy who can echo locate. He's visually impaired,
37:26
Speaker 1: and he's like he uses clicks or something like that
37:29
Speaker 1: like a bat. He basically taught himself to echolocate. Really amazing.
37:33
Speaker 1: The first thing I thought about was the guy with
37:35
Speaker 1: the ear in his arm? What was his name? Stell Arct?
37:38
Speaker 1: What's great, oh man, that you and I like go
37:42
Speaker 1: back and forth. I'm remembering the guy's name. Last time
37:44
Speaker 1: we brought him most and I didn't remember his name,
37:46
Speaker 1: and you rattled it right at stell Arc between us,
37:49
Speaker 1: stell arc is going to live forever, like the trans
37:51
Speaker 1: human is to you. But then that last thing about
37:54
Speaker 1: being entrepreneurial or um maybe a corporate executive. They did
38:00
Speaker 1: do a study in two thousand nine that found there
38:01
Speaker 1: was a anecdotal evidence of over a representation in those fields.
38:06
Speaker 1: But then that's the thing too, where they're like, maybe
38:09
Speaker 1: they were just better at overcoming adversity and that stayed
38:13
Speaker 1: on through their whole life to where it wasn't just dyslexia,
38:16
Speaker 1: but like and nothing would keep them down. So they excelled, right,
38:19
Speaker 1: they learned how to how to try harder than their peers.
38:23
Speaker 1: So yeah, even if that is the case, great, sure,
38:27
Speaker 1: But the point is it's still anecdotal, so you have
38:29
Speaker 1: to be careful with saying like, oh, yeah, people with
38:31
Speaker 1: dyslexia are way better at this, or they're they're more
38:34
Speaker 1: likely to be entrepreneurs. Just hasn't been settled. Um, But
38:40
Speaker 1: I think the overall point of this episode is if
38:43
Speaker 1: you are if you do have dyslexia, Um, there is
38:47
Speaker 1: plenty of hope. Do you not give up hope? Whether
38:49
Speaker 1: that your kid has dyslexia or you have dyslexia, you
38:52
Speaker 1: can learn to read and write and spell, and you
38:55
Speaker 1: can become a Pulitzer Prize winning calumnist or Agatha Christie
38:59
Speaker 1: Ye or John Irving. I saw his six alexia, John Oving. Yeah,
39:03
Speaker 1: Richard Branson, that was really good. Ozzy Osborne, For God's sake,
39:08
Speaker 1: look at that guy fumbling around the house. He's successful
39:11
Speaker 1: despite himself. Um. If you want to more about dyslexia,
39:16
Speaker 1: you can learn all about it on the internet. And
39:19
Speaker 1: since I said that it's time for listener mail, I'm
39:23
Speaker 1: gonna call this sid and Marty Croft email. This guy
39:26
Speaker 1: wrote in to email us about a personal connection he
39:28
Speaker 1: had to the Schoolhouse Rock episode. I'm not gonna read
39:32
Speaker 1: that half of the letter because I don't want to
39:33
Speaker 1: further embarrass the family. But his he's his relation to
39:39
Speaker 1: the person that we kind of called out as the
39:41
Speaker 1: guy who ruined Schoolhouse Rock. Okay, wasn't he an exact Yeah? Yeah,
39:46
Speaker 1: But the second half of this is uh, speaking of
39:49
Speaker 1: unbelievable stories, guys, I thought it. You'd be jealous to
39:51
Speaker 1: know that I grew up hanging out on the sets
39:54
Speaker 1: of all the SidD and Marty Croft shows because my
39:56
Speaker 1: mom was on a bunch of them. He used to
39:58
Speaker 1: have lunch with the slee stacks and throw around big
40:01
Speaker 1: foam boulders from Land to the Lost. She was Nashville
40:07
Speaker 1: on the Captain Cool and the Kong Show, which wrapped
40:10
Speaker 1: around the Saturday Morning cartoons. I remember that they also
40:15
Speaker 1: That also led to the music group the Bay City
40:18
Speaker 1: Rollers showing up to my birthday party when I was
40:21
Speaker 1: like five. It caused such a big mom scene the
40:24
Speaker 1: police had to come. That's the s Yeah, you are dy.
40:28
Speaker 1: You know how they got their name? They threw a
40:31
Speaker 1: dart at a map and it landed on Bay City, Michigan.
40:33
Speaker 1: Because they're like Scottish, aren't they? I think so? I
40:35
Speaker 1: think they are. I remember my sister. Uh, we had
40:39
Speaker 1: a babysitter and then my sister and the babysitter. I
40:43
Speaker 1: don't know why my sister wasn't just my babysitter. She
40:45
Speaker 1: was six years older. There was another girl who babysat
40:47
Speaker 1: that was my sister's age, and they would sit around.
40:52
Speaker 1: This is my big memory of the Bay City Rollers.
40:54
Speaker 1: They would there was one of their albums that had
40:56
Speaker 1: each of their pictures sort of in a dartboard like
40:59
Speaker 1: fashion and kle and they would spend the record around
41:02
Speaker 1: and close their eyes and stop it with their finger
41:05
Speaker 1: and like they didn't make out with that picture. Yeah,
41:07
Speaker 1: they had to like kiss that picture or whatever. I
41:11
Speaker 1: hope your sister doesn't listen to this. It's great. The
41:13
Speaker 1: seventies man so innocent. I love the seventies. So Basicity
41:18
Speaker 1: Rollers came to his birthday party. They called the cops. Uh.
41:21
Speaker 1: She went on. My mom went on to do a
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Speaker 1: ton of cool stuff that I'm sure you guys would know,
41:25
Speaker 1: a bunch of episodes of Plastic Man, all the women's
41:29
Speaker 1: voices on Celebrity Deathmatch, hosting a game show called Rodeo Drive,
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Speaker 1: playing Joan Rivers on Family Guy, being in The Catskills
41:37
Speaker 1: on Broadway for two years. Too much more to mention, guys,
41:41
Speaker 1: except also she went on the road with Tim Conway
41:43
Speaker 1: and Harvey Corman for a number of years posing is
41:45
Speaker 1: Carol Burnett, and my little brother ended up engaged to
41:49
Speaker 1: Harvey Corman's daughter, but it didn't work out anyway. I
41:53
Speaker 1: love the show, guys. If I can never be a resource,
41:55
Speaker 1: let me know that is from Keith or l Keith.
41:58
Speaker 1: That was amazing. You remember Celebrity Deathmatch? Yeah, big shout
42:03
Speaker 1: out to your mom too. Yeah, and up to your
42:05
Speaker 1: mom's Keith. Uh. Well, if you want to brag on
42:09
Speaker 1: your mom because she's done some awesome stuff, we love
42:11
Speaker 1: hearing about that. Moms always have great um welcomeness here
42:15
Speaker 1: at stuff you should know that that's gonna end up
42:18
Speaker 1: being a crummy T shirt. Uh. If you want to
42:20
Speaker 1: get in touch with this, you can hang out on
42:22
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know dot com and check out our
42:24
Speaker 1: social links there. I have a website called the Josh
42:26
Speaker 1: Clark Way dot com. You can get in touch with
42:28
Speaker 1: me there, and you can get in touch with me
42:30
Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry and everybody else here at Stuff. You
42:33
Speaker 1: should know by sending an email to Stuff podcast how
42:36
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com For more on this and thousands
42:43
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is that how stuff Works dot com