Latest / The Fourcast / “I’m in despair for the Tourettes community”. Eddie Marsan on the fallout from the Baftas row

Transcript

“I’m in despair for the Tourettes community”. Eddie Marsan on the fallout from the Baftas row · The Fourcast

• 0:00
  Now you've got members of the disabled community feeling
• 0:03
  traumatized, members of the black community feeling
• 0:06
  traumatized and it's very hard in that condition to acknowledge
• 0:10
  2 truths. And that's why you need
• 0:12
  organisations like the BBC to take care to enable us to live
• 0:17
  in a world where we can we can sit with two truths at the same
• 0:20
  time. I.
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  Do not want anybody in the Tourette's community to feel
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  like, Oh my God, they can't leave the house now.
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  I just want an understanding and appreciation that you have to
• 0:31
  start caring about black people and their feelings.
• 0:40
  Hello and welcome to the forecast.
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  Days after the BBC broadcast a racist slur shouted by a person
• 0:46
  with Tourette syndrome while black actors Delroy Lindo and
• 0:49
  Michael B Jordan were on stage presenting an award at the
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  Bafta's, the fallout has only grown.
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  Bafta and the BBC have apologised and launched
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  investigations, but questions remain around who was making
• 1:01
  decisions that night, why other parts of the ceremony were cut
• 1:04
  while this moment was not. And the controversy now sits at
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  the intersection of disability rights, broadcasting standards,
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  the harm caused by offensive language and the treatment of
• 1:15
  black talent. Joining me to discuss what this
• 1:18
  incident has revealed about the institutions involved and the
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  anger that has followed is actor Eddie Marsden, patron of the
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  charity Tourette's Action, whose son Liz with Tourette's, and the
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  Labour MP Dawn Butler, who has written to the BBC asking for an
• 1:33
  urgent explanation over the incident.
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  Eddie, this has gone wrong in so many ways.
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  How has it left you as the father of a Tourette's child?
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  Well, it's left me broken hearted.
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  I mean, I was broken hearted for Delroy and Michael and, and the
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  black community because I think there's a lack of understanding
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  of that word isn't just an offensive word.
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  It's, it's, it's an attack, it's a threat.
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  And but it's also left me in despair for the Tourette's
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  community who were and the the suicide rate in the Tourette's
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  community is, is far higher than the normal population, I think.
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  I think when I was in Dublin, when it happened and I came
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  back, I saw the initial response on social media.
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  The problem with social media is it struggles to hold 2 truths at
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  the same time. And when people are, because
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  this was handled so badly initially, the people get
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  traumatized and angry. And when you're angry, you can't
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  hold 2 truths. And I just, I, I felt what this
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  shows is a lack of understanding, a lack of
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  understanding of the, the, the resonance of that word, and also
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  a lack of understanding of the nature of Tourette's.
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  Because John Davis never meant to.
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  What he did was involuntary. It's not an indication of his
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  own personal beliefs. The word he said is just, is a
• 3:03
  tick. He's got no control.
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  It was no choice of his, but the BBC had a choice whether to cut
• 3:09
  it. They had a choice whether to
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  what they could edit out and they had a choice and how
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  whether they apologized to Delroy and Michael.
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  And they didn't. And I think the way they've
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  handled it has made a kind of fake binary choice between the
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  black community and the Tourette's community, which I
• 3:27
  which I think isn't true and. And I mean, you've, you've
• 3:30
  avoided the social media, yes, argument that that's deliberate.
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  Yes, because I I because this is a complex situation and I don't
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  think the social media is is conducive to dealing with
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  complex situations. Dawn I mean, as a politician I
• 3:45
  suppose you've had the power to sort of demand an explanation
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  from the BBC, but could you also tell me how it made you feel?
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  Yeah, so I, I agree with Eddie and everything that he said.
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  So I I wasn't watching it live, but then it was flagged to me
• 4:02
  that the N word was said. And when I watched it, I kind of
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  called my office in and I'm like, this isn't just about the
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  N word being broadcast and being said.
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  It's about the harm. But also when you see the
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  actors, when you see Michael B Jordan, you don't.
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  When you see them, they physically stop.
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  They pause. You have to.
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  They took that in. You know that in breath and they
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  just compose themselves to continue.
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  Now, so many of us who've been racially abused know that moment
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  where you're having to decide what you do in that moment when
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  you're being racially abused, right?
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  And so that pain, and I said, why on earth would the BBC have
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  have a 2 hour delay in broadcasting?
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  Why on earth would they broadcast that pain to the
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  nation for millions of people to be further damaged by that, to
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  be traumatized by that. And I just thought this is this
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  is just unacceptable. And then the, the failure of the
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  duty of care to the actors and to the Tourette's John Davidson,
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  that's like, how could you fail so badly on all levels?
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  I just, I just, and This is why my letter wasn't just raising
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  the issue that the N word was said.
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  It was raising the issue that there's a lack of duty of care
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  on John Michael and Darrell Linden, but also who was making
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  the decisions, Who's in the editing rooms?
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  Who decided it was OK to broadcast that?
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  Who decided it was OK for that to go on iPlayer?
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  We need to know, because if we don't know, how do we stop it
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  happening again? I.
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  Mean, you know, there's been loads of commentary around this
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  and Kemi Badenoch the next morning said it was a big
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  mistake. But she also said, look, black
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  people won't be traumatised by this.
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  We've all been called that word, you know, a million times, you
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  know, but but it was a mistake. Can you explain, you know,
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  whether you whether you agree with that, but also sort of
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  what's you know, is there trauma from hearing that word?
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  What is your reaction as that woman in that setting?
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  Kemi Baedonok has, you know, denied her heritage many times
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  as Nigerian. So her view will be completely
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  different to mine. Why is there trauma?
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  I mean, I'm very consistent in regards to that word.
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  I don't like hearing it. I don't like hearing it in
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  music. I don't like hearing it as a
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  greeting. I know some people talk about
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  reclaiming the word. That word is steeped deep in
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  violence, in subjugation, in in slavery.
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  You know, it is a very and and because I think we also have to
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  understand the era in which we're having this discussion
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  right right now, we're seeing the rise of the far right, we're
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  seeing the rise of white supremacists.
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  And so it's really important that there is an understanding
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  around this do. You, Eddie.
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  I mean, do you think it's possible for somebody who isn't
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  black to understand? Yeah, of course it is.
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  Just to ask, you know, it's of course it's because of the
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  historical resonance. I think there's a mistake that
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  they think they equate the word with a swear word.
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  If I go to a Tourette's charity and and I and I meet Tourette's
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  sufferers, about 10% of them have copper alalia, which is,
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  which is the condition where you say an appropriate word.
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  So they will call me the C word, but I can brush that off.
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  But when I speak to my black friends, I realise the that it,
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  that word is a physical threat, an attack, because historically
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  if you heard that word, you were probably gonna be killed in some
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  way. That's that's the resonance of
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  it. But that doesn't mean that I
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  mean, John Amici wrote a brilliant sub stack about it,
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  which really calmed me down because he he addressed the the
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  issue of the pain cause to Delroy and Michael and the black
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  community, but also understood in in a brilliant writing the
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  the involuntary nature of it of Tourette's and John Davis.
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  And what that what he said was that lack of lack of intent does
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  not mitigate impact, which is true.
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  Because a lot, a lot of people, you know, felt bad that John
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  Davidson felt he had to apologise, you know, or express
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  his regret. I mean, you know or or express,
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  you know, how mortified he was for something that is just part
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  of him. But that's what Tourette's
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  sufferers feel all the time, and they do take responsibility.
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  Responsibility doesn't mean blame.
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  Responsibility means the ability to respond and he's a good man,
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  He's a, he's a courageous man, he's a brilliant, brilliant
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  champion. He's probably saved more lives
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  than you can imagine from the work that he's done and the film
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  is a brilliant portrayal of him. But responsibility is the
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  ability to respond. I understand now that he's
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  approached the producers of Sinners to apologise personally
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  to Michael and to Delroy and he that that's what Tourette
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  sufferers do. The extent of the sort of, I
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  suppose, lack of understanding and ignorance has been really
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  laid bare in the last few days, you know, in big, you know,
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  Jamie Foxx, big Hollywood star going on social media and
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  basically just saying now he meant this.
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  What is the impact of that do you think?
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  Well, I think one of the most fascinating things on social
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  media is you see lots of members of the black community who
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  suffered in threats having the courage to come on to, to film
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  themselves with their with, with the symptoms of their condition
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  and to explain it. The generosity of those two
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  young girls I've seen, it has been the courage has been
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  amazing. I think as I said that there's a
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  high degree of suicide amongst Tourette sufferers and I would
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  hate them because of social isolation, because of
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  depression, because of anxiety. So I would hate for them to be
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  to suffer more, socialize isolation that would lead to
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  more suicide. When it comes to Jamie, I just
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  think ignorance is a human condition.
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  We all need to learn. I need to learn.
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  I learn things without make mistakes everyday and one of the
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  things I hope comes from this incident is it was caused by
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  lack of understanding and I think and I hope that this will
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  increase understanding. And just explain, I mean, you've
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  touched on it already, but again, I think ignorance leads
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  some people to believe that what, what the Tourette's tick
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  is, is, is, is letting out, you know, a, a, a dark thought that
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  what, that's what you think. And and you and and a normal
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  human response is to not let yourself say that that's wrong,
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  isn't. It no, it's not, it's not what
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  you think some people think it's what you subconsciously believe.
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  And Tourette's sufferers don't subconsciously believe their
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  ticks. It's it's very similar to
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  standing on. I saw someone describe it as
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  standing on the edge of a high building and your mind tells you
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  that you want to jump and you know you shouldn't jump.
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  That's your brain kind of and that make an analysis of the
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  danger that you're facing. There's something within
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  somebody with Tourette's where their brain can't stop them
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  saying the things that they don't want to say.
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  It's not. It's in no way an indication of
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  their beliefs. It's involuntary.
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  Donovan how, how, how well communicated do you think that
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  has been? Because again, a lot of people
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  have come out and said, you know, said they don't really buy
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  this as a, you know, they think it's an excuse.
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  You know, how, how, how do you get people to understand what
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  the realities are? Well, I think the main thing is
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  it is involuntary and it is a condition and it is a
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  disability. And so we do need a lot more
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  kindness in the world, right, and a lot more understanding.
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  And so I'm in touch with the producers and we're going to be
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  showing, I swear, in Parliament. And I hope that will help to
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  increase sort of the understanding of Tourettes in
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  regards to the N word. This is something that we would
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  have hoped that people would understand the damage of that
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  word. And how many years have we been
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  talking about the damage of that word?
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  And I'm I'm a fan of the BBC, so this is not me criticizing the
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  BBC just to try and destable them.
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  I think we need a state broadcaster.
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  What? Do you think they've got wrong
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  then? Or what do you think it's
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  revealed about the institution? Again, because this isn't the
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  first time the institution has been in trouble.
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  Where's the diversity? Who was in the control room?
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  Who made the decision? What was the arrangements?
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  Because the people outside in the van apparently went inside.
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  They must have had communication from people inside to the van,
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  which just doesn't make any sense, right?
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  And this is the Baftas. And, you know, people in the
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  room. After that word was shouted,
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  apparently the atmosphere really changed.
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  And so, you know, and if I could see that through the screen, I
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  just imagine if you were in that room, what that felt like.
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  And you're telling me that that wasn't communicated within the
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  two hours for the BBC had to edit it.
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  So I think this is a real moment where we need to have the
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  investigation and be honest and truthful about what happened.
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  What does it tell you that they waited until the next day for
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  the round to blow up before they said Oh yes, we're sorry and
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  we're going to take it down off the iPlayer?
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  That blows my mind. It's almost as though so as
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  though waiting to see whether the black community are going to
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  be offended, whether there's enough of us or enough of a
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  voice or whether we're loud enough for us to be taken
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  seriously, for our pain to be recognised.
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  For the damage to be recognised is that you shouldn't have to
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  have a whole campaign or this debate and you know, and the
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  damage that's done. I do not want anybody in the
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  Tourette's community to feel like, Oh my God, they can't
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  leave the house now, you know, or feel, you know, additionally
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  isolated to what they felt before.
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  I don't want that to happen. I just, I just want an
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  understanding and appreciation that you have to start caring
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  about black people and their feelings.
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  I mean, and, and this has unfortunately pitted, you know,
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  rights against each other to some degree.
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  I mean, I, I tweeted something about this a few days ago and
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  said I, you know, I, it works. The effect of, I can't think of
• 14:45
  any explanation for why this would have been broadcast.
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  You see why it happened on the day and that's fine.
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  He was there. The audience were warned, the TV
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  audience were not warned. So this came out of the blue.
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  And, but the response I got, there were a lot of people who
• 15:01
  were saying you're ignorant, you don't understand Tourette's, you
• 15:05
  need to educate yourself. You know you can't delete
• 15:09
  disability. You know you should understand
• 15:11
  what was going on. So so just.
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  But there's a but there's a flaw in that argument right into that
• 15:16
  they they edited out a homophobic word, they edited out
• 15:21
  Free Palestine, They edited out a couple of swear words.
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  So if they had the, the, the foresight or the insider edit
• 15:29
  out out those words, why not edit out other words?
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  And I understand they've edited, they edited out one of the word
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  the N words, but we need to know why they left one in.
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  Well, what do you make of this argument that some people are
• 15:41
  making Eddie that you know it it it is wrong to to edit a
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  disability? No, I mean John would wanted it
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  edited. They, they, they assured him
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  that they would edit anything, any any ticks that he had.
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  They they would edit it out. The problem is I think the lack
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  of care and the lack of understanding has created such a
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  furor. People have got angry.
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  The, the members of the black community, I feel angry not
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  because, because a man from Tourette's had an involuntary
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  tick. They, they, they're angry
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  because of the lack of care, the reason that it wasn't edited
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  out. And that's, and when you are
• 16:22
  traumatised, it's very hard to hold 2 truths.
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  So now you've got members of the disabled community feeling
• 16:30
  traumatised, members of the black community feeling
• 16:32
  traumatised. And it's very hard in that
• 16:34
  condition to acknowledge 2 truths.
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  But that's what you need. And that's why you need
• 16:39
  organisations like the BBC to take care to enable us to live
• 16:44
  in a world where we can we can sit with two truths at the same
• 16:47
  time. And and.
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  What do you think about some of those commentators who are
• 16:51
  saying, oh, get over yourselves, this just isn't that big a deal?
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  What they don't understand, they don't understand the weight of
• 16:57
  that word. They don't understand the
• 16:59
  historical resonance of that word.
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  To them, it's just like someone being called the C word or it's
• 17:06
  not. It's not just offensive, it's
• 17:09
  threatening and it's an attack. And that's because of the
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  historical context. Can you tell me a little bit
• 17:15
  about living with Tourette's, you know, in, in your family?
• 17:18
  And I mean, I, I keep thinking about, you know, how John
• 17:22
  Davidson feels now having gone through this and whether, you
• 17:27
  know, he left the room on that night, which in itself is a bit
• 17:31
  troubling, you know, And I wonder how he feels about going
• 17:37
  into public places now. You know, what is it like being
• 17:40
  in a public place with someone who's expressing tics?
• 17:44
  It's, it's traumatising for the Tourette sufferer.
• 17:49
  My son, my son has gone through hell since since the age of 10.
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  The social isolation, the fear of going on trains, public
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  transport, the fear of going out, the fear of going to the
• 18:01
  theatre. He, he, he loves, he studies
• 18:04
  acting. He, he can't go to the theatre
• 18:06
  because he goes there and they'll start ticking.
• 18:09
  It's, it's such a massive impact on his life and within the
• 18:12
  family because you may say inappropriate things, things
• 18:15
  you've got no control over. It's, it's so debilitating.
• 18:19
  My son was doing his A levels and my wife and I had to type
• 18:23
  his essays because he couldn't type.
• 18:25
  And he had a tick where he would then delete everything but
• 18:28
  typed. So that's not someone who wants
• 18:31
  to do that. It's, it's just involuntary and
• 18:35
  the depression, the anxiety, suicidal thoughts, my son's
• 18:40
  experienced, all of them. And I know that Tourette
• 18:43
  sufferers, especially young people are, are, are
• 18:45
  experiencing that all over the country.
• 18:47
  And, and here's the instinct to stay away from places where you
• 18:50
  might idiot. Or is that changing?
• 18:53
  It well, it once people understand friends and family,
• 18:58
  then it's less so. And and my son has a a lanyard
• 19:04
  where he where he, where he says I'm a Tourette sufferer.
• 19:08
  So people can see that, that he has the condition.
• 19:12
  So that does help. What?
• 19:15
  What? What do you make of where this
• 19:17
  leaves? John Davidson and.
• 19:20
  How he was treated. I think the BBC failed in their
• 19:26
  duty of care to him as well. I read that John had said that
• 19:29
  there was a mic near him. I mean, you would have thought
• 19:32
  that there would not be a mic near a Tourette sufferer who
• 19:36
  said I am going to take. I suppose there were a number of
• 19:39
  mics around the rooms. Capture applause.
• 19:40
  I imagine that's what it was, but I mean.
• 19:42
  Absolutely. But you make adjustments, right?
• 19:44
  If you've got somebody with a disability, you make
• 19:47
  adjustments. That's what you do.
• 19:49
  You know, if you've got somebody in the wheelchair, you make
• 19:51
  adjustments, you put a ramp and you have them at the front, at
• 19:53
  the back, you don't, you know, have them on the 2nd floor, you
• 19:56
  have them on the ground floor, you make adjustments according
• 19:58
  to the person's disability. So I think there was a lack of
• 20:02
  consideration in that regard. And I hope where it leaves John,
• 20:06
  I mean, hopefully I will get to meet John.
• 20:08
  And you know, we hope to have AQ and AI.
• 20:10
  Think it'd be great if everybody has a deeper understanding.
• 20:17
  Of Tourette's, I know that. And it's good that John has also
• 20:19
  reached out to the producers of Sinners and everything, but
• 20:24
  ultimately this could have been avoided.
• 20:28
  And two hours, normally when you're having a live show, you
• 20:33
  don't have the comfort of having two hours.
• 20:36
  Normally it's minutes, like 10 minutes.
• 20:38
  I suppose the question is, you know, was the did this happen
• 20:41
  just because of a screw up? You know, was it just human
• 20:44
  error or, or is there institutional, you know, race,
• 20:50
  systemic racism and ableism built into this?
• 20:55
  You know that that's why this has happened.
• 20:56
  Well, I suppose the investigation needs to happen,
• 20:59
  but we do know there are institutional problems and we do
• 21:03
  know their systemic problems in regards to race and
• 21:07
  acknowledgement and having that diversity in the room and just
• 21:11
  very simple things like getting people's names right in
• 21:13
  Parliament. You know, I get confused with
• 21:15
  Bell all the time. And so we know that.
• 21:18
  So diversity isn't just a fun thing to do, it's an essential
• 21:24
  thing to do if you want to get things right.
• 21:26
  If you want to be inclusive, then you need to have diversity
• 21:29
  at every structure, every room, behind the camera, in front of
• 21:33
  the camera. That is important and that is
• 21:35
  the country that we live in. An idea and a word that's under
• 21:38
  attack, though at the moment isn't.
• 21:39
  It it's. Yes, it is.
• 21:41
  And this is, and This is why I say in the we have to understand
• 21:45
  in the context in which we're having this debate, why it's so
• 21:48
  important because, yes, DEI is under attack.
• 21:51
  You've got, you know, the Reform Party basically taking pages out
• 21:56
  of Trump's playbook and saying, this is what we're going to do
• 21:59
  in this country. We do not want our country to go
• 22:02
  backwards. And so that means that we have
• 22:03
  to understand this and don't dismiss it.
• 22:05
  Now, I've had people emailing me telling me that I should resign.
• 22:09
  Why am I being offended by the N word?
• 22:11
  Don't tell me. Don't tell me that I cannot be
• 22:13
  offended offended by the N word I.
• 22:15
  Mean you've brought some of them, haven't you?
• 22:16
  Can you share them with us? There's a.
• 22:21
  There's a lot. James, please can you explain
• 22:26
  your reasons for being so offended by the broadcast
• 22:28
  mistake? I generally don't understand why
• 22:31
  the outrage. It's a live broadcast.
• 22:33
  Wasn't like there was a Terry delay.
• 22:35
  Do you want to stop all live TV? The technology to filter out on
• 22:39
  bleep language on live TV is not perfect.
• 22:41
  So why beat up the BBC? It seems out of proportion to
• 22:44
  the offence and it just goes on and on and on.
• 22:47
  Of course you do. Your attention seeking,
• 22:50
  oversensitive, beep swear word, hang, hang your head in shame.
• 22:57
  You're an embarrassment. Yeah, like we get the.
• 23:00
  Picture. Get the picture?
• 23:03
  I think like I tell you what, lack of diversity means.
• 23:09
  It means people with lack of awareness of diverse conditions
• 23:13
  and diverse situations. If you have a very limited, if
• 23:19
  you create, if the BBC or any organization is run from the
• 23:23
  very limited pool of, of society, then they don't have
• 23:26
  the, the awareness, they don't have the lived in experience of
• 23:29
  living with people with disabilities or living with
• 23:31
  people of colour. They don't, they don't, they
• 23:34
  don't have those. And, and one of the things I
• 23:36
  find really interesting about people being afraid of
• 23:38
  diversity. I grew up in Tower Hamlets,
• 23:40
  probably the most diverse borough in the country.
• 23:44
  One of the great joys about living in diversity is you
• 23:47
  discover commonality. You suddenly realise that under
• 23:51
  all the beneath, all the cultural differences, you're all
• 23:55
  the same. And when you live in an area
• 23:58
  that's just white or just black or just one ethnicity, you, you
• 24:03
  have, you live in uniformity. Uniformity.
• 24:06
  There's no discovering of commonality, and there's a joy
• 24:09
  in discovering commonality. And what do you both think
• 24:12
  should come out of this? I mean, you know, there was
• 24:14
  always a temptation with investigations for somebody to
• 24:18
  be hung out to dry. You know, do you want somebody
• 24:21
  to be sacked or blamed or, you know, hauled out because of
• 24:26
  this? If it's if it's repeated
• 24:31
  behaviour, so if this person is responsible for other things
• 24:36
  that have happened in this way, then possibly.
• 24:41
  But ultimately I want to get to the bottom of why it was a
• 24:44
  mistake. I'm hoping it was a mistake.
• 24:47
  I'm hoping it wasn't deliberate right?
• 24:49
  So it was a mistake. And The thing is with mistakes
• 24:51
  is we all make them, but you, you don't learn from them unless
• 24:55
  you sit down and understand why you made the mistake in the 1st
• 24:57
  place. So I want an understanding to
• 25:00
  why the mistake was made and. That's about more than we didn't
• 25:02
  have the microphone. So that the.
• 25:04
  People in. The truck could hear it.
• 25:05
  That's right. It's about the reaction.
• 25:06
  That's right. And how it was handled.
• 25:08
  That's right. And how long it took, Look, and
• 25:10
  you know, that lack of duty of care, I mean, you know, there's
• 25:14
  a, there's a lot of damage to be repaired and to the black
• 25:17
  community and to the Tourette's community.
• 25:20
  And I, one of the things I hope is that on, on social media
• 25:24
  where lots of young people get their news and, and, and have
• 25:28
  their social discourse, that people of influence take a
• 25:33
  breath and consider 2 truths and consider whether they're going
• 25:37
  to communicate 2 truths at the same time.
• 25:40
  Sometimes they go for one simple truth and it does a lot of harm
• 25:43
  and. And do you think this could end
• 25:45
  up with things better for Tourette sufferers?
• 25:47
  Because at the moment it feels worse.
• 25:49
  Hopefully, hopefully it's better, there's a better
• 25:52
  understanding of for Tourette sufferers and for the Black
• 25:56
  community on, on what that word means and how you deal with that
• 26:00
  historical trauma. And I don't understand why
• 26:03
  people, I don't understand why, why people find that so
• 26:07
  difficult to understand. You've got two years, 200 years
• 26:10
  of slavery. I mean, why?
• 26:12
  Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't people be?
• 26:15
  I mean, I know within my family there's generational trauma from
• 26:19
  poverty because we're all, you know, in and out of work houses
• 26:22
  or prisons or whatever. So why wouldn't you?
• 26:25
  If, if, if my great grandfather was a slave, why wouldn't I be
• 26:29
  That That's just human existence.
• 26:31
  I don't understand why people have a problem with that.
• 26:35
  Well, thank you, I. Love Eddie for saying that.
• 26:39
  Thank you both very much indeed for coming in.
• 26:41
  Dawn Butler, Eddie Marsan, thank you.
• 26:42
  That's the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.