Latest / Skin Anarchy / Gillian Gorman Round, CEO of Kjaer Weis

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Gillian Gorman Round, CEO of Kjaer Weis · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I have such a special guest today.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: I am a huge fan of the brand, as I'm sure a lot of you are.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just such an honor to be talking to this guest.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the CEO of CareWise, Jillian Gorman Round.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the show, Jill.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so, so honored to be hosting you.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Hector, the privilege is all mine.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've been so looking forward to having this chat.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, likewise, I can't wait for us to really dive in.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know all about you, though.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know about your background and your career and how you um, you know, like how you ended up with CareWise and like just the whole journey.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you could dive into it.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how long have you got?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's been, it's, it's, you know, I've been in beauty for over 20 years now.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that sort of makes me sound absolutely um ancient.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I started um back in 1999.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I joined the beauty industry straight out of university, and I went to the University of Edinburgh, of which I'm very proud and still connected.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, lovely! I love Edinburgh.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's just the best place in the world.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I secured a place on the L'Oreal graduate training scheme and joined them straight out of university uh 27th of September 1999.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Some days stay with you forever and ever, and um joined what was then known as the Coiffeur Division, which is now the professional products division, which is really about the marketing and sales of professional products, so L'Oreal Professional, Redkin, Keras Tar, Seri Expert, Matrix, etc., to salons.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I spent a few years in that division and I went to Luxury.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I left L'Oreal to go and join Yves Saint Laurent-Bauté, which was then owned by the Gucci Group.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I joined them as the head of marketing.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in the beginning of 2007, they moved me to New York.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: L'Oreal bought Yves Saint Laurent Beauté from the Gucci Group.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I am uh a career example of never going through the door backwards because you never know what will happen.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was privileged enough to rejoin L'Oreal and became the head of marketing for Longcombe US and did that for a few years and loved it, and then decided to take a change.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was in my mid-30s by that point, and I'd spent all of this wonderful time in um in beauty and most of it at the L'Oreal group, and was really curious about what was happening with media and content and digital, because you know, if you even only go back 10 or 12 years, we were all doing things like building micro sites to launch a fragrance and you know, you know, and paying for Facebook likes.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought this is changing.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't, I'm not an engineer and I don't think like that.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I the one you should do is go and join a Facebook or a Google, but I actually went to join Condo Nast and wanted to really understand the world of great content and how media was evolving and had an extraordinary time there.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I then consulted for myself for a couple of years and joined Revlon uh to work with Debbie Palman initially on their incubator and then latterly taking you full circle back to their professional division, which I ran was a great privilege, uh looking after brands like CND and American Crew before joining Kia Weiss.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of beauty, beauty, beauty, beauty, media fashion, digital, digital, beauty, beauty.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I love the change in the middle.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: The change was great.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love, oh my gosh, I love how well rounded your experiences.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's so awesome.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, what was it like when you went into media and then you were coming back to beauty?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, was it like, did you want to do that, or was it something that just, you know, it's a great, great question.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what it was?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't actually about going from media back into beauty because what I did after being in media for a few years was I I consulted from for myself, and I worked across, you know, lots of different brands and in lots of different categories, working with everything from a, you know, from biotechnology companies to fashion companies and beauty companies and all sorts of things because I had acquired this kind of unusual skill set, you know, classically trained marketer from the L'Oreal School of Marketing that understood content and digital and commerce.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, can I make this skill set work for me in an independent way?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was something I wanted to do for my family at that point was to be a little bit more independent.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved it and I had a great couple of years, but it turned out I'm a terrible consultant because I'm just a terrible consultant, because A, I'm I'm a very confident individual, etc., etc.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea of actually going saying, hey, you need to hire me because my services is an anathema to me.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just can't do it.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the bigger problem was I really miss being part of a team long term, because when you're a consultant, unless you have a very long-term gig, as you know, you go in and you make relationships and you help, and then you're on to the next project.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it struck me that I'm actually much better in a team environment, and I missed it.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I missed that collaborativeness, I missed the, I miss the sort of community of it.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't necessarily so much about media back into beauty, it was about going from being more independent back into a larger structure, which I enjoyed very much.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I've worked for many, many wonderful people over the years, and Debbie Palman is certainly right up there.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, I think that's such a hallmark, you know, concept to really focus in on is that I think a lot of you know, the really great leaders, you know, in any industry um would have the same opinion as you, you know, obviously, like, you know, you guys, I think just gravitate towards this team environment where you can not only inspire, but also gain inspiration from your team members, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean yeah, and I I've seen this as like a you know, like a trend in um a true like leadership mindset.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: So that's beautiful.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I love yeah, you know, I think you're absolutely sorry, I think I think you're absolutely right.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it is about being inspired from others as well as hopefully being a little bit inspiring yourself, and you know, you you can't do that if if you're working on your own.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are brilliant at it, I'm not.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I gravitate to that chemistry of being in a group.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I I tell you one thing that the the independence and the working for myself and the consultancy work did do for me, and that was to allow me to really witness and be part of cultures that were much smaller and much more differently structured than what I had been used to in the past.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think has really helped me prepare for the role that I'm in now, because I think it would be very difficult to have come out of a very, very big structure with no appreciation of what a smaller, more difficult, you know, struggling, growing, challenged structure is like, and to take on the role of CEO.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that as well as, you know, I gravitate to the chemistry of a team, but that that exposure to smaller businesses and businesses structured in a different way, I think has been, you know, absolutely critical for my assimilation into the role I'm I'm in now.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can totally see that.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also, you know, having been in the roles that you've been in and having seen this macro vision, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: This macro view of the industry, like being able to see like all of the pieces and how they fit together.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure that at this point you're just a master at, you know, really figuring out like these are the problems and here's the solutions.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I can I can really see that.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I love that you are it nothing is like, you know, too small.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like I really I feel like that's such a beautiful, you know, like spirit to have.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like you know, even though you've held such like high positions and then you have moved around, it's like that's a beautiful trait to have.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's human though, isn't it?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think the minute you the minute you become too big, so to speak, to do anything is the minute that you're not relevant.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't know what's actually happening, if you're not I always I always said, so I became a CEO for the first time in the middle of a pandemic, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, no one can prepare you for that.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it it there are so many moments of of humor, but you know, you're you know, I was I was laughing with with with friends and colleagues.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was saying, you know, as a CEO, what do you do?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: You set the strategy, you clorox the desks, you you know, you you look at the three year vision and you print desk closed signs and laminate them.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you you really you really are and have to be and should be, to the benefit of everybody, in the weeds to the appropriate degree.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that that I love to do.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it is a mark of people that are connected with their teams to be able to do that.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely, 100% agree.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: I want to actually ask Jill though, because CureWise to me is a beautiful brand.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's always been on my radar, and I'm not gonna lie, the first time I ever saw the brand was uh a friend of mine from high school.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's actually um an editor of Leaf for Forbes now, and she had posted something um and the packaging was just stunning, you know, and I was immediately drawn and I was like, this is such a cool brand, but then it just kind of fell off my radar, and then I've just started seeing it everywhere again.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to know, like, you know, when you came into the company, what was your personal like vision and goal?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um, what did you really want to bring to the table for them?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think um I think it's a great question because um I think that you're you're acknowledging something that is that is that is true, which is that one often discovers brands and then for some reason doesn't see them again.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think that from and that dovetails exactly into what my vision is for Keir Weiss, which is fundamentally to deliver Kirsten's vision.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And Kirsten, Kier Weiss, as our founder, founded this brand now 11 years ago.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it is an exaggeration in any way, shape, or form to for me to say that she was then and is now a pioneer.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because she had the vision of having been a working session editorial makeup artist, and having had clients and celebrities and artists and models, etc., in her chair, she was she knew what they were looking for.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And what she wanted to bring to the market was something that didn't then and still doesn't, apart from us, apart from us, exist, which is an extremely high performance, so makeup first, performers first, yeah, certified organic, sustainable brand.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, certified organic is regulated.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: We are certified organic by Cosmos EcoCert, CCPB, but the organic certifications of those, not the natural certifications, the organic accreditations.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is that exactly though?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: We do you mind like diabetic?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mind at all because this absolutely relates to the vision, which is how do we set the new standard for beauty with this?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Certified organic is um it is regulated.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are many other parts of our market which are not regulated, as you know, and you can have different interpretations of what things may or may not mean.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: To be able to claim certified organic, you must be accredited by a national or uh European body.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all of our products are manufactured in the EU.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, most of the moment are in are manufactured in Italy, and it means that um every stage of your manufacturing process must be uh must be accredited and must be supervised and signed off.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So let me give you an example.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: This week we have launched Kia Weiss Impossible Mascara, which is the first ever truly volumizing certified organic mascara in a refillable packaging.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this was accredited by Cosmos EcoCert, organic, and so the ingredients had to be certified, the production process had to be certified, the supply chain had to be certified, and we as a company had to be certified.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't just get to say, oh, look, we've got some wonderful dandelion in here, and it's organic.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: You actually have to go through many, many, many, many hoops to be able to say this.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what she brought to the market.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: In, as you rightly say, the most beautiful, gorgeous, art-like packaging, yeah, which is in and of itself all refillable, recycled, or or or recyclable.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: So when I joined, I think sometimes people join companies and think and have a little bit of the not invented here syndrome, which is well, I can do that a bit better.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that wasn't it at all.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was to say I, as a consumer and as a beauty junkie and as somebody who's worked in this industry with great passion for multiple years, believe that the next step for this industry is to go beyond where we are now into high performance, certified, organic, sustainable.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: This beautiful brand is doing it, right, but it needs to be bigger.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's the vision.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's the vision.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't sacrifice the principles, don't negate the equity, take it out to luxury consumers all over the world.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and and prove to them that this beautiful product, which never disappoints, which has the highest performance, which gives you genuine joy, is actually better for you and better for the planet in every possible way.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love that.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really love that because you're right.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I remember, like, even like when I first, like I mentioned, when I first saw the products and the brand, I was like, oh my gosh, they have refillable, like, you know, the packaging is refillable.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And at that point, it was such a like a novel thing in the industry.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like nobody, I was not seeing this anywhere else.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I really, really love that you honed in on that and just maintained the vision that was initially there.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I I mean, I really, really respect that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's beautiful.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's it's it's absolutely the truth because you know, sometimes things don't need to be reinvented, they just need to be professionalized and scaled.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, so with Kirsten's extraordinary partnership, we're investing in paid marketing and investing in the channels that really help tell our story, whether it is CRM, whether it is sampling, whether it is influencer marketing, we're building out our digital presence, we're working with great retail partners, very select retail partners.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes it's just about, and this makes it sound terribly simple, and of course it's not at all, but sometimes it is about bringing the best practices from the industry to life in the right way for these very, very special brands.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm often asked, well, what do you think about other people doing refillable?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I just say, Well, it's absolutely brilliant.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, a rising tide lifts all boats, and secondly, that's what we should be doing for the planet.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't some sort of Friday afternoon project.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: We, as manufacturers of fast-moving consumer goods, should all be thinking about how can I ensure that our impact is less and our legacy is more.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right, you know, it's like you always need someone to lead the way, you know, no change has ever occurred with everyone just sitting around waiting for somebody else to do something, you know, like you have got to have that first person or that first brand take the lead, and then all we can do is learn from it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so happy to see that brands are learning, you know, and they are adopting this idea of like refillable packaging because I'm not gonna lie, you know, for a long time it was very much, you know, a rare thing to see, not only in makeup, but even skincare, you know.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: So now it's like it's it's really coming into full swing.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think, you know, I want to commend your brand for being such a leader in that space.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Kirsten deserves all of the credit for that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I think I think that I think that consumers are smart, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Ecta, we're consumers, we know where we're being marketed to, and we're fine with that.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, we like being marketed to.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: But we know go on, entertain me, you know, you know, shock me, give me joy.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's all these are all wonderful things.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: But but consumers are smart, and they do know when they're being greenwashed, which is a phrase I really hadn't used much before joining this brand, or really within the last few years.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's yeah, you know, I have an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old, and they can tell you exactly how much plastic is in the ocean and exactly, you know, what their carbon footprint is, etc., etc.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so for the next generation, they are absolutely, you know, for them, the conservation of our natural resources is just inherent to who they are.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: For us as consumers, we're adjusting to that, we're we're changing our habits, we're being thoughtful in our purchases.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's certainly um been accelerated by the pandemic.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: But we're also very savvy about when we're being fivved to.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if somebody is saying to us, well, it's, you know, it's got an organic ingredient or it's refillable, but it's the only thing in the line that is refillable.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's also doing brands harm, I think.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have to trust that our consumers are smart, they know what they're doing.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, while they love being marketed to, they we must be accurate with them as well.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that you had explained what certified organic means, because you're right, greenwashing is a giant problem.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I see it all the time, and especially skincare, you know, and I hate to say that, but there are so many brands that are like, well, we've got this one ingredient, and that's going to make us clean beauty.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, what are you talking about?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: And also, what the hell is clean beauty?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know what that is, you know.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get me started.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get me started.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, I'd love, I'd love, I'd love for it to be defined and regulated.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I think that it is, it is, it, you know, what is certified organic?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: We we have to explain that to people, and that's great.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of the education process.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: But also, you know, I was at a dinner recently and I was talking to this very smart girl next to me who's uh in finance and absolutely, you know, uh a Ke-Weiss potential consumer.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And she said to me, But do I want to put certified organic on my face?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna work?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna break me out?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, you know what, that's a really that's a really interesting barrier that we also have to overcome.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because, first of all, no, it's not because of the production process and the selection of the ingredients, et cetera, et cetera.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: But secondly, this is really high performance.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Certified organic in our world does not mean a compromise.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: It does not mean, well, it's not going to be just quite as good.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as I said, we just launched Impossible Mascara this week.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, rather than believing our own hype, we consumer-tested with many, many more women than the uh than legally you need to, or that our competitor brands do test against.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And four out of five of them said they preferred impossible mascara to their best current volumizing mascara.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we also have to use these, as we were talking about before, classical marketing elements of research and testing and claims to be able to convince uh women, uh, and they are then easily convinced, that actually there is no compromise in certified organic.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: You don't, you don't lose a thing.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: All you do is gain.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean, I I don't think you would lose anything because I, you know, I think the more like you have structure for things like this, the better that they're produced.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I really love that you mentioned that it's not just about the product, it's also about the company and the people and the whole structure of everything that you're creating that's analyzed.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that is something that I think um most people don't understand that what that brings is a precision.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: It brings, you know, it brings a more like, you know, honed in approach to what the company is doing.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I would, for me as a consumer, I'm not gonna lie, I would I would see that as a huge plus, you know, looking at the brand and looking at the company.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be all about it rather than, you know, someone who's claiming X, Y, and Z, and I'd have no idea what their process is.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it is a huge benefit.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And as we tell the story and as we are able to tell it to more and more people, it uh, you know, the convincing is happening, and we and we see that, we see that in our we see that in our results.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and I also I think that, you know, and the we talked before about the legacy of the pandemic.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly think conscious consumption, whether that's in fashion, whether that's in home goods, and certainly in beauty, is very much part of the contemporary consumer psyche.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's not about I don't want to consume, because there's great joy in consumption, but it is the The also the joy of the smart, thoughtful consumption.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, Kier Weiss plays perfectly in that scope as well.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Nigel, I have a question because I'm very, very curious about Gen Z.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna lie, I don't fully understand them, you know, but I respect them.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so I want to know because I recently read an article and I believe Beauty Independent published this wonderful article about um they interviewed 10 Gen Z women and they were asking, like, would they buy celebrity-backed brands, you know, over others?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of them said yes.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I want to know from your perspective, um, just because for me, when I look at makeup brands, I look for the brands that are inspired by makeup artists, like, you know, like Kirsten and I look for that artistry and I look for that um that inspiration that comes from an experienced eye rather than just a name.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, in terms of marketing the company and really getting Gen Z on board, like has that been a challenge for you as you know from the brand standpoint, or is it um are is it pretty well perceived by them as well?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I it's it's not a challenge for us.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think um celebrities selling things is as old as the hills.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: What we have what we have seen, what we have seen, of course, in the last few years is the wild expansion of the definition of celebrity and who now who now qualifies to be regarded as as a celebrity.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we've seen that wild entrance into the beauty market, and of course, some have wonderful products and do very, very well.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've always said that you know, you can sell anything to anybody once.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have a customer till you've sold them a product for the second time or the third time.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and some of these, you know, so-called celebrity brands have done absolutely marvelous jobs at that, and that's because they are, they've they've they've discovered uh a need in the market and they've met that need.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that um I think that Gen Z is with every generation that comes, every generation, as I said before, gets more and more thoughtful about their environmental impact.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and certainly think that's playing into their into their into their heads as they think about Kill Weiss.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they certainly want quality and they want true artistry.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: We have found, if you look at our customer data, that actually the demographic in terms of age is irrelevant.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have, you know, we look at this from our own Killwiss.com data.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: We see age range from you know 15, 16, 17 likely playing with paying with with mummy and daddy's credit card or their own, or their money that they've earned from their Saturday job right the way through to women in their late 70s and into their 80s.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And these women share uh and these customers share a very specific mindset, which is I want high performance, I want it to be a joy to use, I'm interested and uh and and and thoughtful about the certified organic and the refillable part, and it's a joy to me.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, from my perspective, it's actually less about thinking about it generationally, although, of course, the marketing tactics are slightly different generationally.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not about saying to somebody who's 17, you should be thinking about this versus, you know, XYZ celebrity label.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because most of most of those, most of those customers, they're really savvy, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're well researched, they know what they're doing, and they they are increasingly interested in in this sector.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: How we tell the story to them is different, right?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's the TikTok versus the reels versus the main feed versus the versus the Pinterest versus the Facebook versus the email versus the direct mail versus the in store.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's where we have to be so much more nimble as any organization.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Marketing has to be, because there are so many more channels to tell your story, and you really have to think about segmenting across them.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's certainly we have lots of work to do in that, but it's something I'm really thinking about, and the business is really thinking about, because you don't speak to everybody through the same, through the same loudspeaker, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's for me the thing I'm thinking about more in terms of the generations and their media consumption as opposed to celebrity versus traditional versus certified organic.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really, I mean, that's such an excellent point that you made.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've really, you know, I can understand that a lot better now because you're right, marketing plays is really the the one aspect that has to change and it's, you know, manipulated.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I I do want to get your advice because I think that, you know, Kiroce is such a global brand.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, you know, I think my personal opinion has always been that, you know, having studied in so many countries and just like seeing the beauty that comes from different places, like beauty products, like it's I find that there's one thing in common of all the brands that do really well, um, such as yours, and that is that it's appealing to everyone, regardless of what culture you're from, because they're just it's just this, I don't know what it is.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's an innate, you know, trait of the brand, whether it's the packaging or it's the colors or whatever it is, every single woman across cultures can say, I like this product, I like this brand, and I want to get advice from you for new entrepreneurs that are maybe launching new brands and they want to make a product or a brand that is going to appeal to everyone, you know, regardless of background and culture or or whatnot.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: So can you give us some uh I guess career tips or whatever you think best?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I say that's such an interesting question, and it's one that's not usually asked because you know, I think there's a real, I think there's a real mix here, which is if you're an entrepreneur and you're thinking about launching a brand, then instinctively you have your point of view.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that point of view, whether that's a product positioning, whether it's a category approach, uh messaging, an application methodology, whatever it is, that has to be distinctly, uniquely yours.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that has to be the most important thing.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, the beauty industry, like many industries, is very, very crowded and doesn't actually need another beauty brand.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: But we always find room for something that's great.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think about it in terms of a closet, right?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: None of us actually need any new clothes, but we always seem to find that room for that really desirable jacket or pair of trousers or whatever it is that we have our heart set on.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Beauty industry is very, very, very similar, but if it doesn't work, it won't work.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it won't work no matter how much, you know, it won't work if it's banal because you're you're thinking too much about a uh about success, as opposed to what does my brand stand for?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what is my point of view, what is the tension I'm looking to solve here?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: What is the product that isn't available that I want?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly if I think about Kirsten, but if I also think back to the previous founders that I've worked with, David Ruculia at American Crew and Jan Arnold and her family at CND, you know, they they both and many others launched products because they had a vision for something that didn't already exist.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think first of all, you have to have that vision.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're getting a bit of New York backstreet, you're back back back back audio here from the street outside.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I apologize.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you are also then I think once you have the concept of what it is that you want to do and why it is different and and differentiated, then uh consumers will gravitate to it internationally if it's great.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if it's really great.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what does great mean?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Great means that it is an excellent product, not yeah, it's fine.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great means I love this.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is part of my routine.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is my own.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Something you recommend to a best friend.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Spot on Hector.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're sitting having a glass of wine, gosh, you look radiant.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm looking for a new blush.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: What would you recommend?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: When you can't wait to say, do you know what?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's this, that, you know, so something that is truly great because people recommend it, they will use it, they will love it.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's giving them joy, it's it's it's meeting a need.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, some of these things can be at different price points, right?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't all have to be luxury.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're very, very success, successful international brands at more mass pricing because they're giving great quality at a lower price or they're they're they're fitting that need.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think one has to start with the brand and what it needs to be before one starts with is this going to appeal to every single market around the world?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is that for very, very large global brands, whether they are in fashion or beauty, automotive, they do tweak per region.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: They do tweak the colours, maybe packaging, maybe something cultural, to be more nuanced and sensitive to that group of consumers.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: So ultimately, as your brand grows, you do tweak a little bit.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes, again, coming back to marketing, it may not be the product itself, it may be the way that you're delivering it for that particular that particular market or region.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, what a wonderful answer.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I feel like you need to be a professor, like you need to be a marketing professor.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like I mean it.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna start like a poll.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, for real.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because people need to learn this stuff, Jill.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I when I got my MBA, I'm not joking.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: I most of my classes, I was like, why is no one teaching me anything practical?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not sure.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, first of all, you are a doctor with an MBA.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, firstly, you are wildly, wildly more educated and accredited than I be.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've done four years as an undergrad and and and some postgrad work.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I think what stays with me is I is is that you know, I I do go back and I do very occasionally impose myself on the University of Edinburgh Business School, and I do give the occasional lecture, much probably to their horror.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is, for me, it comes back to these the four P's of marketing, which is product and price and place and promotion.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And those four Ps are now regarded as incredibly old-fashioned and irrelevant.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that there's a circular flow with 15 more Ps that I'm not thinking about.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is you have to have a wonderful product that stands on its own two feet.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have to identify the distribution channel, i.e.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: the place or places that it's going to be its best fit.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: You need to price it so that it's both appropriate for the market and you can make money on it, because beauty is not a non-profit.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you need to promote it in a way that's right for the product and the brand, but right for the audience that you are that you are targeting.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it it comes back to these things all the time.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think I'd be terribly good because I'm not very sophisticated actor, really.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, of course.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, no, I'm fully behind, you know, have Jillian please be a professor for finance and marketing and whatever it is that you can offer.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because honestly, there's not enough people that, you know, understand just business and industry as well as you do.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, from what you've explained to us, I'm just it's just such an honor to learn from you and to have hosted you.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for coming onto the show.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And anytime that you have time in your schedule, I would love for you to come back and share more with us.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's been absolutely nothing but a pleasure.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so, so very much for having me.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I've I've listened to many of the other interviews you've done, and they're all wonderful.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you and you you ask such wonderful questions.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really been my my absolute pleasure, a true highlight.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I I look forward to to speaking to you again in the future.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone listening, please, please, please go check out Kierwise if you have not already.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: I will be linking everything in the uh the art for this episode.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I'll be back next time.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 34:37
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• 34:42
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• 34:45
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• 35:42
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