Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Supernatural Encounters | Dr. James B. De Young

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Supernatural Encounters | Dr. James B. De Young · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome everybody to the podcast this week. I am sitting
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  Speaker 2: here montan Zalas with doctor James DeYoung and we're going
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  Speaker 2: to be talking about his brand new book Supernatural Encounters,
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  Speaker 2: Divine and Demonic and just kind of getting into all
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  Speaker 2: of what we understand as spiritual warfare, and I think
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  Speaker 2: it's going to be a great discussion. Before we do,
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  Speaker 2: want to remind everybody about our upcoming conference in Orlando, Florida,
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  Speaker 2: March twenty seventh through thirtieth. If you are able to
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  Speaker 2: join us, It's at kind of a smaller venue, so
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  Speaker 2: I think the tickets are selling out a little bit
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  Speaker 2: quicker than otherwise. But as always, you can join us
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  Speaker 2: through livestream. Go to prophecywatchers dot com scroll down you
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  Speaker 2: can check it out and see all the different things.
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  Speaker 2: It's going to be a good time. And again things
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  Speaker 2: are moving fast and maybe you know before we get
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  Speaker 2: into this, we'll welcome to the program here.
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  Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Monda. I appreciate the invitation.
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  Speaker 2: And I and for the sake of the audience, kind
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  Speaker 2: of share a little bit about your background, because you
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  Speaker 2: know this is a little bit loosier, were not stuck
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  Speaker 2: on one topic, but I kind of introduced yourself to
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  Speaker 2: the audience.
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  Speaker 1: All right. I grew up on a farm in Illinois
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  Speaker 1: and went to Moody Bible Institute for my first schooling
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  Speaker 1: after high school, and from there went to a Southern
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  Speaker 1: Baptist College in Texas to finish off my BA requirements.
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  Speaker 1: Then felt led by the Lord to go to seminary
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  Speaker 1: and went to Talbot Seminary in southern California on Viola
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  Speaker 1: University campus. And from there the Lord impressed me to
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  Speaker 1: go on since there's only another two or three years
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  Speaker 1: and I could earn a doctorate. So I went on
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  Speaker 1: to Dallas Seminary and finished a New Testament there, and
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  Speaker 1: then the Lord gave us a wonderful invitation. The president
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  Speaker 1: of mon Normal School the Bible came to Dallas looking
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  Speaker 1: for new professors, and so I accepted the invitation to
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  Speaker 1: go to Portland, Oregon, where we taught for four years.
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  Speaker 1: And then Western Conservative Baptist Seminary invited me to come
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  Speaker 1: across town to Western Seminary, and I accepted that. I
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  Speaker 1: was there for forty years wow, and retired about nine
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  Speaker 1: years ago. So I'm really pretty old.
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  Speaker 2: Well, but a lot of knowledge, that's for sure. What
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  Speaker 2: did you from a from a professor's perspective, what was
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  Speaker 2: your what was your viewpoints on going from an undergrad
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  Speaker 2: into a seminary? Did you like it? Did you like
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  Speaker 2: it better? Or what was your thoughts on that?
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  Speaker 1: It was a very difficult decision because Montnomah School of
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  Speaker 1: the Bible was a wonderful place to work. The salary
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  Speaker 1: was about the same, so it was a difficult decision.
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  Speaker 1: And I remember talking to my pastor in the foyer
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  Speaker 1: of the church one day, David Whiting, who was the
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  Speaker 1: son of one of the people at Western Seminary but
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  Speaker 1: who had since passed on to Glory, and I asked
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  Speaker 1: him about the question should I take this invitation? And
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  Speaker 1: he said, Jim, if you ever want to teach on
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  Speaker 1: a higher level than college, this is probably the only
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  Speaker 1: opportunity you may ever get. So that was the convincing
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  Speaker 1: and I enjoyed the many years I had there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a I actually went down there for
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  Speaker 2: and when I was living there in Portland, I was
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  Speaker 2: looking for schools and Western was one of them. And
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  Speaker 2: even when I went back and was living in Washington.
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  Speaker 2: I went down there for I don't know if I
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  Speaker 2: audited something. I don't remember what it was now it's
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  Speaker 2: been a while, but I thought, oh, Western's right here,
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  Speaker 2: and that's great and anyways, so it's amazing. But let
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  Speaker 2: me ask you this, because not only this book about
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  Speaker 2: supernatural encounters, but kind of share with the other books
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  Speaker 2: that you've written, which I think are extremely valuable.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I've written several books on all kinds of different topics,
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  Speaker 1: and I realized that my purpose in writing was this
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  Speaker 1: to alert the Christian community as to the biblical support
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  Speaker 1: for a particular problem that our culture is facing, and
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  Speaker 1: to give the Biblical information for that, and to educate believers,
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  Speaker 1: to give them or arm them with the truth so
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  Speaker 1: that they can go out and tell others about that.
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  Speaker 1: And so I've written on a spectrum of various issues
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  Speaker 1: and topics, including homosexuality, hermeneutics, how to Interpret the Bible,
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  Speaker 1: a book titled it was a very wonderful book, I
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  Speaker 1: think beyond the obvious. And then I went on to
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  Speaker 1: write about women in ministry. I wrote three books on
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  Speaker 1: Christian how to refute Christian Universalism. I wrote Burning Down
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  Speaker 1: the Shack and the Shack was authored by a neighbor
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  Speaker 1: of the mine.
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  Speaker 2: Really, I remember reading the Shack, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so I responded with a book Burning down.
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  Speaker 2: The Shack, Yes, which is appropriate.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't choose that title. The publisher said, really, if
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  Speaker 1: you don't change it to this topic, this title, I
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  Speaker 1: won't publish it. So well, and then I've written three
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  Speaker 1: books on universalism, then Christian refuting Christian Universalism, and then
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  Speaker 1: I got into writing on eschatology, and I've written three
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  Speaker 1: books on that now and then now this fourth book
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  Speaker 1: that builds upon those other thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So before we move on from that, because it's
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  Speaker 2: so helpful for our current culture, the Book of Homosexuality,
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  Speaker 2: I think you know what led you to that, and
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  Speaker 2: kind of you know, and give us the title, because
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  Speaker 2: I think people definitely need to understand that topic a
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  Speaker 2: little bit.
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  Speaker 1: What led me to write the book was my reading
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  Speaker 1: New Testament scholars in other places, other liberal seminaries, who
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  Speaker 1: were coming out and saying, there's no condemnation of homosexual behavior.
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  Speaker 1: At least it didn't mean condemnation. The incident at thought
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  Speaker 1: him and Gomar wasn't really about homosexual activity, and on
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  Speaker 1: and on, I thought to myself, I'll wait a minute.
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  Speaker 1: When I read the New Testament, including from the Greek text,
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  Speaker 1: it does seem to have very strong condemnations of homosexual behavior,
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  Speaker 1: both in the New Testament and in the Old Testament.
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  Speaker 2: And just you taught Greek for forty years, so it's
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  Speaker 2: not like you do you dabble? Okay, this is a
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  Speaker 2: serious business, all right.
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  Speaker 1: Well, so with other scholars, seemingly scholars who are defending
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  Speaker 1: a liberal approach to interpreting scripture, and.
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  Speaker 2: They're looking for justification, right, I mean really, yes.
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  Speaker 1: So I decided to write and refute them, and I
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  Speaker 1: published I think about six chapters in serial That is,
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  Speaker 1: they weren't chapters of a book, but they were topics.
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  Speaker 1: And one of them was why the use of nature
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  Speaker 1: in our conversation? Such as God has created the nature
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  Speaker 1: that that's on biblical terminology. Never does the New Testament
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  Speaker 1: ever refer to the creation out there as nature that
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  Speaker 1: was a deity back in biblical times and a false God.
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  Speaker 1: So the Bible uses the word creation to talk about
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  Speaker 1: the beautiful outdoors that we enjoy. So that was one
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  Speaker 1: of the articles, the proper understanding of nature as used
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  Speaker 1: in the Bible, And so I eventually came to the fact,
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  Speaker 1: after writing these several chapters, that I ought to put
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  Speaker 1: this together in a book. And that's what I did
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  Speaker 1: in the year two thousand.
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  Speaker 2: When you let what's the title that book.
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  Speaker 1: The book is homosexuality. The subtitle is a a contemporary
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  Speaker 1: claims examined in light of the Bible and other early
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  Speaker 1: Christian other early literature and law.
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  Speaker 2: What was the response to that, to that book, Well,
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  Speaker 2: you're still alive, so that says something. But in the
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  Speaker 2: academic world, what was the response to that?
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  Speaker 1: Well, for Christians, they thought well of it. And I
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  Speaker 1: must say that it's probably the most technically correct biblical
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  Speaker 1: treatment of that issue of any books that've been published.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm not boasting, I think when I say that's
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  Speaker 1: just a reality, because I really went into detail, both
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  Speaker 1: in the Hebrew language of the Old Testament, going back
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  Speaker 1: to Genesis eighteen and nineteen, and then in the New
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  Speaker 1: Testament Greek and so forth. To my knowledge, it's never
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  Speaker 1: been refuted, but I haven't read, you know, all kinds
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  Speaker 1: of responses to it and so forth. I just put
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  Speaker 1: it out there. Let the Lord use it as fit.
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  Speaker 1: And by the way, in the present controversy, like in
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  Speaker 1: the United Methodist Church and the split over this issue,
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  Speaker 1: and also now in the Christian Reform Church. Somebody ordered
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  Speaker 1: hundreds of copies of that, and I take it somebody
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  Speaker 1: from one of those two denominations to spread throughout their denomination.
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  Speaker 2: To pay attention, right, if you really want to know
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  Speaker 2: what the Bible says.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I hope that that book is having an
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  Speaker 1: ongoing influence as contemporary as today.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and this is it fits very well
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  Speaker 2: into even our discussion because we know again that the
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  Speaker 2: weapons of our warfare are not physical, right, They're not charnel,
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  Speaker 2: they're spiritual. So in that regard, I mean, this is
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  Speaker 2: I'll just I want to spend a moment on it
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  Speaker 2: because I think it's important. Is the typical argument, and
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  Speaker 2: obviously you brought it up, is well He's equal sixteen
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  Speaker 2: that it's just the sin of sodom? Was was lack
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  Speaker 2: of hospitality? Right, I mean so supposedly supposedly right, So
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  Speaker 2: they only focus on they like to bring in eas
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  Speaker 2: Ecal sixteen in force it in on the passage, But
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  Speaker 2: yet it was just a lack of hospitality. Was God
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  Speaker 2: was upset or was it something more physical?
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  Speaker 1: The trend setting book that started that whole thing was
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  Speaker 1: written by John Bodswell and it was titled Homosexuality, and
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  Speaker 1: I forgot the subtitle. And he was a graduate of
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  Speaker 1: Harvard University. Harvard printed this, published this book, and he
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  Speaker 1: was a homosexual. So every chapter the under writing element
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  Speaker 1: is his person.
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  Speaker 2: There might be a hair of bias there you're saying,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, just a hair, right.
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  Speaker 1: This personal involvement in that activity. So I dealt with
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  Speaker 1: his book in my book and so forth. But that
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  Speaker 1: was the trend setting book, and all kinds of people
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  Speaker 1: then started getting on the bandwagon to discount the Bible's
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  Speaker 1: witness to this evil activity.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and so again let's say we can you know
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  Speaker 2: transition a little bit. Is that this whole movement it's
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  Speaker 2: a spiritual thing, right yeah, yeah, So, I mean, and
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  Speaker 2: of course you comes into your book on supernoutionural encounters
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  Speaker 2: that these are this comes this stems from obviously evil
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  Speaker 2: entities who are promoting this lifestyle. I mean, it is
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  Speaker 2: a spiritual war. I mean, I think so.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, I think so definitely. This is one of the
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  Speaker 1: activities that Satan and the fallen angels can promote because
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  Speaker 1: it leads to the destruction of the individual, and it
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  Speaker 1: leads to illicit relationships with other people, namely men with
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  Speaker 1: men or women with women, And anybody who goes down
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  Speaker 1: that road ends up thinking perversely or crookedly or distortedly.
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  Speaker 1: I think anybody who sold themselves out to that particular
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  Speaker 1: activity cannot actually operate on an even keel dealing with
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  Speaker 1: all kinds of other issues. And to have that institutionalized
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  Speaker 1: by a Supreme Court decision in our country and then
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  Speaker 1: by certain administrations to export this abroad and make it
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  Speaker 1: a conditional condition of US eight or whatever it is,
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  Speaker 1: is a great evil.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know, for the sake of again just
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  Speaker 2: clarity is you know, when you go to Romans one,
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  Speaker 2: you know we three times God gave them over, gave
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  Speaker 2: them over twenty six, twenty four, twenty six, and twenty eight.
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  Speaker 2: You have this. And I've always read that or it
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  Speaker 2: seemed no, I mean, just the exe of Jesus of
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  Speaker 2: it is that God gave them over to a debased mind.
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  Speaker 2: In so the very faculties of logic and the ability
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  Speaker 2: to reason and think has become deficient and distorted and distorted. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: So it makes you wonder, like, doesn't this wor's the
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  Speaker 2: common sense? No, it's gone. The common sense is gone.
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  Speaker 1: That's right, because common sense is anchored let's say, a
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  Speaker 1: natural moral law as well as biblical law. And what
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  Speaker 1: I discovered in my book was that you don't have
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  Speaker 1: to read the Bible to come to a proper understanding
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  Speaker 1: of homosexuality. Read Plato. Yeah, I read him and discovered that.
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  Speaker 1: In the earliest part of his life, he wrote a
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  Speaker 1: book called the Symposium, and it's an imaginary banquet table,
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  Speaker 1: and all kinds of homosexual people in his day in
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  Speaker 1: the third or fourth century BC are homosexuals, including Socrates,
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  Speaker 1: and they all defend homosexual activity and even homosexual orientation
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  Speaker 1: apart from the activity which contemporizes it for our days,
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  Speaker 1: doesn't it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: At the end of his life, Plato writes a book
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  Speaker 1: called the Laws to Volumes, and he asked the question,
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  Speaker 1: what is it that will commend and promote a virtuous
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  Speaker 1: society or culture? And he says there are three sins,
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  Speaker 1: three evils in society, incest, adultery, and homosexuality. And he says,
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  Speaker 1: if public opinion and religion will not restrain these activities,
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  Speaker 1: then let laws be made to stop them, and that
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  Speaker 1: is really significant.
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  Speaker 2: That's powerful.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, because Paul basically talks about that in One
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  Speaker 1: Timothy One that legislation is meant to guide various evil activities,
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  Speaker 1: including homosexual behavior. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So, I mean, so this ok incests adultery homosexuality from Plato, right,
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  Speaker 2: a non Christian in that regard. But and so for
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  Speaker 2: those that might be listening, you know, let's not leave
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  Speaker 2: it on a on a even though it's true that
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  Speaker 2: if somebody doesn't repent, lessens and put their trust in
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  Speaker 2: Jesus or whatever, they're not going to not whatever, but
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  Speaker 2: they're not going to be saved. I mean, what's the
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  Speaker 2: can people change?
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  Speaker 1: Oh? Of course? Yeah. And my teaching at Western Seminary
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  Speaker 1: acquainted me with students who were homosexual and when they
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  Speaker 1: came into counter and encountered biblical teaching about this, they
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  Speaker 1: confess that dropped out of school and got straightened out.
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  Speaker 1: And I have a book written by a former student
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  Speaker 1: and who came back to seminary then and went through
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  Speaker 1: married to Gal and so forth.
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  Speaker 2: So there's hope, is what we're saying. Hope.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, any activity or sinful behavior that a person may
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  Speaker 1: be involved in can be overcome by the power of
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  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, and the message of the Gospel is not
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  Speaker 1: repent of homosexuality, and then you'll be saved. But accept
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  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, and he will give you the power to
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  Speaker 1: live apart from that activity and to overcome it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeh, yeah, which one of us doesn't have a bent
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  Speaker 2: or an inclination to some you know, non virtuous thing.
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  Speaker 2: And then but yet again, coming to the Lord where
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  Speaker 2: a new creation we've got. Now we have the power
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  Speaker 2: of the Holy Spirit and dwelling in us to be
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  Speaker 2: to overcome and to walk in the spirit. And we
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  Speaker 2: won't fulfill the loss of the flesh. I mean, that's
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  Speaker 2: just that's this is standard fair. But again the confusion,
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  Speaker 2: you know, these as we were talking about the fallen
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  Speaker 2: angels and others, demonic doctrines of demons are coming in
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  Speaker 2: to try to to try to oldly say what Satan
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  Speaker 2: said in the garden, did God really say? And we're
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  Speaker 2: saying he did, He really.
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  Speaker 1: Did, And he appealed at him and Eve to define
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  Speaker 1: themselves apart from God's definition of them. And they listened
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  Speaker 1: to his word and fell into great evil, that is,
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  Speaker 1: they plunge the whole wraith into sin, and consequently we
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  Speaker 1: live in an era from then until now in which
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  Speaker 1: those born and remain an atom will all die, and
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  Speaker 1: and those who believe in the second atom will experience
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  Speaker 1: delivery and victory and their living.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, and and then one day we'll
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  Speaker 2: get a new body and we'll be delivered from the
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  Speaker 2: very presence, which is awesome. Well, I mean, okay, so
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  Speaker 2: the other I don't want to I don't want to
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  Speaker 2: go too fast because the other two books that you wrote,
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  Speaker 2: which I think you're you wrote a book on the
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  Speaker 2: pre tribulation rapture, which is getting attacked quite a bit.
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  Speaker 2: It is Yeah, yeah, I mean we see it and
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  Speaker 2: and uh, but it truly is probably in my library,
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  Speaker 2: it's probably the best book on just here all together
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  Speaker 2: in one package if you want to look at the
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  Speaker 2: pre triber rapture and and all of its angles. Uh.
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  Speaker 2: And so maybe maybe talk about that that because that's
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  Speaker 2: just a couple of years old, right or a few
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: years older.
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  Speaker 1: And that followed the book Missed the Rapture.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so talk about that to your question, mark, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: talk about all of those.
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  Speaker 1: And that was preceded by the book on the anti
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  Speaker 1: Christ called Apocalypse Is Coming. And so then we came.
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  Speaker 1: John Balch and I co authored the book Missed the Rapture,
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  Speaker 1: and that is a very uh inviting book for those
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  Speaker 1: who want to understand not only what the rapture is,
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  Speaker 1: but then what happens to those who are left behind.
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  Speaker 2: The book is a book kind of designed not only
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  Speaker 2: but is it designed for those left behind if they
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  Speaker 2: pick it up or maybe a family to Hey, if
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  Speaker 2: you have unbelieving make sure you get this book and
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  Speaker 2: leave it out in case it's the right. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it's kind of it's meant for the other side, so speak.
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  Speaker 1: Prophecy Watchers wrote a byline underneath that every Christian holmes
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  Speaker 1: ought to have a copy of this book.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to leave behind. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so that's the purpose of it, so that when
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  Speaker 1: people realize they've been left behind, they can take up
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  Speaker 1: this book and read how first of all to become
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  Speaker 1: a believer, then how to grow and how to meet
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  Speaker 1: opposition as a Christian from evil? And then I wrote
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  Speaker 1: the second half that details what is the anti Christ
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  Speaker 1: going to do? What is the great tribulation like? And
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  Speaker 1: I deal with the Book of Daniel and the prophecies
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  Speaker 1: of chapter nine and so forth, and then how evil
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  Speaker 1: it will become. Interestingly, that book is interspersed at the
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  Speaker 1: beginning of every chapter with a historical fiction that we created,
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  Speaker 1: John and I did to highlight what that following chapter
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  Speaker 1: is going to deal with and put it in a
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  Speaker 1: story for you know. And so we enjoyed writing that.
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  Speaker 1: But that was followed in by the book The Preacher Rapture,
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  Speaker 1: and I wanted to deal with some critical issue that
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  Speaker 1: I come across I hadn't found anybody else's writing, and
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: one of them is the issue of the fact that
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the Bible has only three phrases that deal with the future,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: and that is the end times. Pardon me, that's not
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: a biblical phrase. The Age coming to the end, the
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: latter days, and the period of the Great Tribulation, the
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: day of the Lord, and so those all come together
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: in a very formal way, I think to speak about it.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: They begin in the Old Testament and they delineate all
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: our understanding of the future. For people to use the
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: phrase end times, it is not in the Bible, and
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: it confuses the issue. And the reason that post trib
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: people and I'm millennial people want to confuse these three
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: phrases is so that they can say the Day of
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: the Lord is going on now, or the Great Tribulation
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: is going on now, and so forth, and so they
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: confuse these terms in order to say we can interpret
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: the Bible allegorically or spiritually, and these things are going
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: on now, and that therefore dismisses the pre trip rapture
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: and the remove of the saints from the wrath of
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: God during the Great Tribulation. So that was the prompting
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: behind that book to set those phrases correct. And then
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: it came across the interesting idea of where did Paul
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: get his concept of the rapture that he writes about
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: in First Thessalonians four. And the word rapture is used
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: in a very common way to seize people's goods or whatever.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: But Paul introduces it concerning the future in First Thessalonians four,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: and he uses that term when he says that after
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the resurrection, Jesus will immediately catch away the Saints. So
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: the Greek word harpazzil means to catch away or snatch,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: and he introduces that term there and says that back
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: to back events are going to happen the resurrection, first
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: of all of the saints, and immediately following the transformation
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: of living believers into glorified bodies. They're going to be
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: caught away to meet the Lord in the air and
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: go to heaven. And so that's a pretrib rapture view,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: because then we believe that the Great Tribulation occurs, but
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: the saints are in heaven during that time, and those
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: who become Christians, according to the book, miss the rapture.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: They will undergo all kinds of suffering and persecution at
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: the hands of the anti Christ, but they're going to
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: be protected by God's mark upon them during the time
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: of the Great Tribulation. And that led me then to
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: deal with the other things. What did the Great Tribulation like?
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: And interestingly, Mando I discovered there's quite a bit of
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: evidence for saying that the Church in various forms through
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: the ages has persecuted the Church, pardon me, persecuted Israel.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: There's a strong vein of antithematism that has gone from
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: the time of the New Testament till modern times yep.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: And it is culminated in modern history in the work
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: of Hitler and what he did in slaughtering probably six
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: million Jews. So I cover that in the book in
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the chapter Charles Feinberg wrote about that a lot, so
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: I quote him in that chapter about the anti Semitism
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: of the Church in various places. And by the way,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: it's amillennial people who have done the worst suffering and
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: persecution of Jews.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: What do you think that is, I mean, theologically tied
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: together for people who might not know.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a wonderful question, thank you for asking it.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: And go back to the New Testament times and some
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Christians felt that because the Jews crucified Jesus, they are
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: guilty of a terrible and heenous crime and sin. But
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: they didn't leave it simply in the spiritual realm. They
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: then took punishment upon living Jews contemporary with them. They
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: looked upon the destruction of Jerusalem in eighty seventy as
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: a sign that God was turning away from the Jews.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: They took the destruction of the whole land of Israel
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: and the work of I think it was Hadrian the
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Emperor in making Jerusalem a pagan city in the year
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: one thirty five after the revolt of bar Kakpa, and
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: from that point on, Jerusalem and Israel was uninhabited by
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Jews until nineteen forty eight, that is, they had no
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: homeland and no country. Well, that persecution. All of these events,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: certain Christians took as a sign, well, God has turned
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: away from Israel and needs replaced Israel with the Church.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: So all the reformers, we can think of the names
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: of Calvin and Luther and Zwingli and Malanthan and so forth,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: felt that that was the case, that God had turned
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: away and rejected Israel, and all the fulfillment of promises
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: made in the Old Testament and in the New Testament
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: were going to be fulfilled in the Church. So that
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: the Church has replaced Israel. Well, all of this feeds
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: this idea of anti sematism, and it came about because
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: of this and certain writings Epistol of Barnabas. These are
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: apocryphal writing, but nonetheless serious. And in the Old Testament
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: era fourth Ezra have specific passages in which they say
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: God has turned away from Israel and all of the
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: promises are fulfilled in the Church. So there were the
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: personal dynamics of history going on, and then writings that
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: had a certain credence to them that took the same position.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing to me where it almost seems like
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: there was a lack of discernment in some of the
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: reformers in that they they addressed the gospel very normal, literal,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: but yet they maintained some of the eschatology, eschatological viewpoints
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: or or theology going back to Origin and Augustine. And
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you're like, come on, guys, finished a job. I mean,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: but I know that things were tough, and they were
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: being persecuted and people were dying. I mean, I got
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: but yeah, being Martin, so the Gospel is the most
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: no doubt. But it's just even to this day, you
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: see again some of our brothers who are in the
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: reform camp or covenant theologians in that regard or replacement elogiens,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: they don't like that term. Fulfillment theologians if they like
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that term better, but nevertheless they they fail to see
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: the well. And you've written about it in our magazine
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: about the seductri the seductress of Allegory. Yeah, and and
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: you're like, come on, guys, this is we weren't We
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: aren't that way and we release the gospel. It's like, yeah,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: we can allegorize it. Can we allegorize the gospel? I mean?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: And and and often is the case. They'll they'll pull
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: out Galatians for or a single or maybe a couple
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: of passages where the Bible does use allegory. We're not
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: saying it's never used. But then they try to take
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: it and they run with it, and they and they
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: can make everything else as they see fit or works
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: for their theology to run with any more.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Ways, if we go back to the time of Origin,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: then just prior to him, Clement of Alexandria, he went
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: through the Bible and he discovered a in Deuteronomy in
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: which he said the surface meaning of the text of
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: this a Jewish warrior goes into battle against the pagan
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: nation and he sees they're a pagan beautiful woman and
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: desires to marry her. So he takes her home and
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: after period of separation, can consummate his marriage with her.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And the terminology in Deuteronomy ten is that she's a
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: beautiful captive woman, and that means allegory because Origin comes
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: along and says, well, those events they may have happened,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: but that's not the real message of the Bible in
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that passage. What it means is that Christians can take
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: allegory as the captive woman and use her to interpret
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: the Bible. And he got this idea from believing the
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: miss not believing the myss, but believing that the process
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: that the Greeks were involved in and their Greek philosophy
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: was a wonderful tool. In fact, he believed the Greek
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: philosophy was ordained of God. To my knowledge, I think
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I say that. And so he became enamored with this
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Greek process of interpreting the stories of the Greek gods
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: and goddesses. And he said, you know, we can use
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: this to interpret the Bible, especially those difficult passages that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: we may be ashamed of or fear that they don't
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: really exist on the surface level, and so forth. And
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: he wanted to apply it to the entire Bible, and
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: he did. And so he invents three or four different
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: layers of meaning. There's the literal, but that needs to
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: be discounted because that's troubling and troubling. Don't want to
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: believe that, so to speak. And so above that is
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: the onegogical meaning, which is the heavenly meaning, then the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: moral meaning, and then also another meaning to the text.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: So there are four different levels or kinds of meaning.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And the least important among all these three is the literal.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Means straightforward reading, see the surface.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Meaning of the text. So that bequeathed that whole idea
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: to Augustine, and he becomes the champion of the Catholic
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Church up until the Reformation a thousand years later. This prevails,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: and the reformers realize this, but they don't deal with
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: allegory for interpreting prophecy and the Book of Revelation and
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: instead let the continue on. And it's an allegorical meaning
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: as paramount. And so we end up today with the
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: majority of Christians in the world today who come out
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: of Roman Catholicism or the Reform churches, all given to
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: allegorical understanding of prophecy.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and here we are with all the confusion and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: really even the self justification, like, well, first of all, history,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: you know, a non millennialist or others, they like to
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: quote history, they like to quote Augustin or others, and
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: you go, okay, but that's not the end all of
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: the what is true. It doesn't matter if you can
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: quote somebody in history. It matters is scripturally.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Well, what I found in Augustine's own writings, then his
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: confessions He says, I couldn't really accept Christian theology because
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: of the difficult passages, embarrassing passages for him in the
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Old Testament, until he heard somebody preach that they had
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: a deeper or an allegorical meaning, and that convinced him, Oh, no,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: it can become a Christian. So that's his own testimony.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: And then I discovered he's also given to belief in
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: dispensations because he writes about that in the City of God,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: and he said there are seven or eight dispensations. And
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: when he comes to the present era, he says, the
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: present era is where God is. We are one with God.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: It's not an actual kingdom that Jesus is going to
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: come on the earth, bring on the earth and so forth,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: but it's God's reign in our hearts, the preaching of
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: the Gospel. Satan is bound. So I'm referring to Revelation
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: twenty and so he believed in dispensations, but he defined
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: the present one in an allegorical or spiritual way.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here we are. I mean, you know, how are
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: we going to change history? Yeah? Yeah, exactly. That That's
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: really the key is we just you know, one percent
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: at a time and go, hey, look, if you want
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: to go back to the first century and second century
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: of how the apostles interpreted scripture, you know overall again,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: you can always find one. You know, Matthew two. You
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: know he's quoting Josea eleven. You know, out of Egypt.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I've called my son and I was like, they're they're running.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: That's their that's their free ticket. Like there it is,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: and you go, yeah, but did you just read all
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: of the others It was fulfilled. It was fulfilled Mary,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: you know, Virgin Isaiah seven, all these other passages Bethlehem,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: those were all very literal. But you take one and
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: you see one, and then you get to go, there
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: it is, and you run with it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure there is one.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Well enough. Well, so, uh, you know, we had a
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: chance to do some other programs on the new book here,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: and so let's let's talk about this in our remaining time.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Supernatural encounters, uh, divine and demonic and no doubt, as
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: you've been writing in your retirement, the Lord has guided
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: you again as we just kind of went through a
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: progression of books. So what led you to this one?
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: You know, especially after writing on other topics, Well.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I would say two or three things. One was reading
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: books on the supernatural realm around us, and particular author
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: had written a book Supernatural and other books that I read,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: and one of the statements that author made was this,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: every day when you get up, you ought to address
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the fact that I'm involved in spiritual warfare. And Lord,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: help me to please you today in preaching the gospel
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: and sharing the faith to bring one person out of
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: the realm of darkness by a conversion, and that person
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: be saved by the Lord, and therefore the dark, the
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: realm of darkness be shrunk by as many of the
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: people who come to Christ. So that kind of thinking
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: really started heading home the other books I'd written about
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: the rapture and so forth, that's a supernatural encounter that
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: it's future, and it's mentioned in this new book at
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: the very end and at the Book of Revelation, and
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: so forth, I deal with it. And then the third
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: thing was to come and read about people who call
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: it who were caught in the occult, and they have
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: the personal experience of meeting someone who'd been involved in that,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: so much so that she despaired of life. So she
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: wrote the third part of the book and in her deepest,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: darkest hour, she cried out that God, that the Lord
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Jesus would save her and deliver her. And he did.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: And you read a testimony like that and others similar,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: and you realize these people have experienced the realm of
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: darkness that I have never known. I mean, I was
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: born and reared in a Christian home. But there are
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: all kinds of people out there, in the past and
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the present, probably in the future, who have given themselves
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: over to more and more forms of darkness. A contemporary
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: artist in this field is Taylor Swift in her singing
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: and the music she created. So that awareness caused me
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: then to say to my wife one day, walking into
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: the living room back in December of twenty twenty three,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: I'm going to write a book on the supernatural occurrences
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: in the Bible and put it all together and string
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: them out there. The purpose for that is for me
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: to wear to become aware. And I did the great
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: significance of supernatural realities in the Bible's accounts. You know,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: we have a worldview, and it may be infected by
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: scientism and all kinds of things that are compromising biblical truth.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: And then we also have biblical truth, and we're trying
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: to integrate these, but the overwhelming conviction needs to be
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: that the Bible's worldview is a supernatural world view. Paul
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: had the verses and Second Corinthians in which he says this,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: while the temporal thing while he says this, while we
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: look not at the things that are seen, but the
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: things which are not seen spiritual realities. The things which
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: are seeing are temporal, but the things which are not
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: seen are eternal. So the conflict with evil is part
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: of the unseen world. And Paul says that's the world
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: we ought to concentrate on because that gives reason or
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: cause to the physical world all around us. If we
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: want an explanation of what's happening, let's say today in America,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: this is Friday, February the twenty eighth. I think I'm
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: gonna trust you because I don't know the day in
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. Want to know what's happening behind the
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: government of the United States, or in Ukraine, or in Russia,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: or in India or whatever country. You've got to take
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: into account the spiritual dynamics of evil that are in
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: conflict with good, and that helps explain all kinds of
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: current news.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I think if people again we know the texts, if
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Vision six twelve, we wrestle not against lesh and blood,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: then he goes on principalities, power, sea, So then he
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: goes on the list all these non human entities that
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: we're wrestling against. And so we read that. But yet
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: when we get up every day and we see an
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: issue we talked about homosexuality earlier, maybe it could be
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: sex trafficking, who knows what the evil is that. All
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: the corruption that's in you know, deep state or all
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: the things that we talk politically. But yet we can
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: get up and that morning we're having our tea, we're coffee,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: and we read that. We're like oh, And then we
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: go out on the day. But then we see that,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: we're like, oh, wow, there's a lot of corruption in
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: the world, but we don't necessarily always associate it that
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: there's spiritual entities behind that. So when we wrestle, we
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: see this in secreent in is ten as well, that
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: the weapons were for not cardinal, but they're powerful to
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: takedown arguments. Right, So you see these paul using this language.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: But it's like, as Christians, may we not forget and
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: everything you write in this book. I mean you go
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: from beginning to end talking about the nature of that.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: This book shows us a supernaw natural world, not only
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: just a worldview, but a world that we still live in,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and yet we tend to minimize it or ignore it.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: And again, maybe you can answer this too, because I
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: know you've done a lot about this, is that when
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: you look at some of the Third World countries, not
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: necessarily America, but spiritism, demonic obvious interactions are much more
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: in those places, it seems in many ways.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, my friend John Valtue, co author the other book,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Missed the Rapture, is transcribing the oral testimony of missionaries
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: who served in Papua New Guinea, and that account is
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: filled with all kinds of involvement with supernatural forces of evil.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: The people believed and supported and appeased the deities that
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: were around them that kept them in darkness, and resorting
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: to all kinds of horrible activities, including cannibalism. I said
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the statement recently to somebody, you know, your job as
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: a plumber or whatever it was, is due to Jesus
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Christ here in America. And this is the reason why
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Europe would be in the kind of condition that Papa
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: New Guinea is in yet today. If it weren't for
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: the fact that Paul received the vision to come over
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: to Europe the man of Macedonia on the second missionary journey.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: After Paul had recounted the places he had gone on
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: the first missionary journey, and Titus or not Titus, but
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I think Timothy and also Silas are with him, and
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: he wanted to go further north in Asia Minor. And
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: that night he had a vision, and that vision with
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: about a man in Macedonia or Europe and saying, come.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: On over here and bring us to go, yeah, help us.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so Paul gets up, I imagine this the
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: next morning, and he said, gentlemen or men were going
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: across the water here into Europe. And they said what,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And that's strange on in place, and Faul says, I've
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: been given a vision to do that. If it weren't
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: for that vision, probably wouldn't have happened. But as a
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: result of that vision, the Christianizing of Europe began. And
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: so eventually nations grow up and so forth that are
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: in darkness. And then along comes Constantine, the Roman emperor,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: who on the night before he attacks Maxientius for control
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: of the western half of the Roman Empire. Has a
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: vision and he sees the Sign of the Cross or
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Cairo Sign of Christ in the sky, and it was
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: so bright and outshined the sun, and all his troops sought,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and he converts and becomes a Christian. The next day
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: he goes into battle, and he wins that battle and
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: becomes the first Christian Emperor of Rome in the year
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: three twelve. So as part of the ceremony that a
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: victorious emperor would have, he'd go into the temple of
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Jupiter I think it is, and bowed down and recognized
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: that Jupiter gave him they it is said of Constantine,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: he approached that and turned around and refused to do that.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: And for the rest of his life he tries to
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: promote Christianity in whatever way he can. He does not
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: make a law decreeing Christianity the law of the empire.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: That's a mistaken identity. But he begins building beautiful churches
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: across Europe and as far east as Istanbul, where the
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Church of the Saint Sophia is built, and his mother
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: helped direct this, and he goes into Palestine. They build
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and the Church of
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: the Nativity in Bethlehem. And at the end of his
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: life he says, I want to be buried as the
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: thirteenth Apostle. So that showed his commitment. Now, if that
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: vision had not happened, and if Constantine had not committed
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: to follow through on it, Europe would have remained in darkness.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: But as a result, Christianity begins conquering Europe and becoming
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: And I don't mean conquering in the sense of using
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: the sword as Islam has done, but people are converted,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: and it brought out of darkness into light. Eventually, in
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: fourteen ninety two, Columbus sails the ocean blue and comes
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: and plants Christianity in the New World. And eventually the
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Pilgrims come here from Europe and plant the Gospel in
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: New England, and the Puritans and so forth, And that
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: leads to the Christianization of America. So when I say
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: to the plumber, you owe your jobs to Jesus Christ,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: it's true. If you think back far enough and through
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: those stages of development, how did we end up becoming
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: a civilized nation and in some sense a Christian nation
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: is because of God doing special things, supernatural encounters. So
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: it's endemic to our history and ought to be endemic
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: and practice every day in our lives a realization of
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: that supernatural element.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and that really is I think
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: you know, you're well, maybe you can share it because
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm reading it, but you can you know,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: the take this book. I mean, you know it's it's
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: it's thorough. But in the book you talk about the
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: three questions that you ask me and then and then
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: lead that into the application, because that's really the goal,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: so to talk about that.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Right, So I decided early on, and I trust that
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: this book is a product of the Lord's leading in
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: my life. And so the three questions. I wanted to
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: deal with all of those supernatural encounters from the creation
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: on in Genesis one on through the rest of the
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Bible and the fall of Adam and Eve and so forth.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: And I wanted to somehow cover these adequately but summarily.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: And so I asked three questions. What happened? And so
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: God created the world and I described that in brief ways.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: The second question is what did it mean? And that's
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: easily established. While it meant the creation of all things
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: and so forth, what does it mean today? In other words,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: I wanted to take supernatural occurrences in the past. Let's say.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: The other event that is often talked about is Saul's
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: consulting the Witch of Endor, and so I describe what
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: happens there, what does it mean. Well, there's quite a
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: debate about what it means. Some people believe that it
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: never really happened. That is, the Witch did not call
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: up Samuel in whatever form, and that it's all a
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: demonic trick rather than a real event. So I talk
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: about that and what did it mean? And then the
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: third question is what does it mean today for you
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: and me? And it means, well, getting involved in sorcery
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: or divination is an evil thing and condemned clearly in scripture,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: So I hope, and so I was able to move
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: through probably one hundred different divine encounters that way. And
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: the other supernatural encounters are those of demons, and that's
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: what Saul was involved in consulting the Witch of Endor,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: the demonic encounter.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: But nevertheless, yeah, that's really the key is in all
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: this is when we get up every single day. Number one,
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: it's important to have the right information from the scripture.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: But secondly to recognize that these these fallen angels, these
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: principalities powers, all the different languages that is used, they
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: didn't go to sleep, and they're just like, oh, well,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I guess, I guess we lost that battle. So let's
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: go hang out and do what we do. I don't
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: know about whatever that is. They're relenting us, right, I
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: mean all the way up to the end.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Oh yes. And therefore let's take it on the different
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: levels of a government versus all the way down to
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: a person individual. So our government is constantly beset by forces,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: and I would say more exactly demonic powers, demon fallen
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: angels trying to enlist the government in its behalf and
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: its purposes, and trying to destroy all the influences of
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Christianity or Christians in particular. So that's on the level
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: of governments. And so according to Daniel ten and eleven,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: there are supernatural forces of angels trying to lead empires astray,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: the Prince of Persia, Prince of Greece, and so forth.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: And Daniel says that the prince standing behind Israel is
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Michael the Angel and Daniel twelve to one, so that
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: means that behind such great entities as nations. And by
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: the way, thinking of the Tower of Babel, the Tower
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: of Babel is the attempt of man after the flood
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: to usurp his position from Earth to gain access to Heaven.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: And God saw that as a terrible thing, and so
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: he scattered the peoples and forms nations on the basis
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: of language distinctions. Well, what was going on there was
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: demonically inspired trying to reach heaven, and so God stops that,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: and ever since then we have nations and nationhood. So
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: on that level there's angelic involvement, both good and bad.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: And then we can go down through groups and then
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: to individuals. So if an individual comes to Christ and
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: find deliverance from involvement in the occult or otherwise, that
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: person's probably going to be beset by attractions or temptations
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: or attacks by demonic forces for much of that person's life.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Gradually probably finding deliverance and less of that. But that
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: kind of involvement in darkness means that the devil and
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: his forces are not going to let that person go.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: They're going to do whatever they can to bring that
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: person back.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Now you mentioned you know that, you you know you
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: were raising a Christian home, and you know you can
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: have you know, we all know the different stripes, so
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: to speak, of people who are truly believers. But in
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: that some Christians are like, well, I never have any
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: of that, and others are like, man, I get attacked
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: every day in my dreams and other things. And what's
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: the It's not just being a Christian is the distinction?
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Obviously both are Christian. You know, what do you think
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: is the main distinction there? I mean, why is that
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: the case? I mean, obviously it's case by case, but
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: in general.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe the pattern is that if you come from
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: a background that is Christian, your parents or grandparents have
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: already made a commitment to follow the Gospel, to follow
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. So that sets a person in a certain
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: frame of mind and thinking and education and everything that
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: person engages, occupations and so forth, going to church and
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: all of that is a spiritual outflow through the gifting
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: and guiding of the Holy Spirit in the believer. But
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: if you grow up not having that kind of background,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: you already are, may I say, somewhat disposed to the
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: force of evil in your life. And it may not
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: be outward or a parent, but Anyone who is not
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: in Christ is in darkness. Everybody who's not in Christ
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: is under the power of Satan. Paul said that Christian
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: and therefore for those people to come out of that,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: the battle is far more real and distinctive, and what
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: should I say, forthright and realistic or real than to
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: those who don't have that background. So there's a disposal
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: or disposition I should say, toward godliness and therefore a
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: biblical worldview for those born in a Christian home and
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: growing up and such, compared to those who are not.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Do you think that? Well, again, thinking about Sancretins ten,
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: he's talking about the weapons and in arguments. An argument
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: is you know something written down or something a concept
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: or a thought. It's not physical, right, doesn't matter what
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: we think?
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And so I quote that verse from Second
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Corinthians in the sense that Paul said, well you don't
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: look at that. I mean, we don't think about the physical.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: We don't we should not think about the physical as
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: the only real existence. Actually, it's something more real than that,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: is the unseen world around us.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: And I think in terms of oftentimes you know, my
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: own view on Ephesian six and the armor of God,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: is I hear I've heard I heard this for years,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: and it didn't quite sit with me in the sense
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: that somebody says, Okay, well, I when I get up
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: in the morning, I pray, and I put on the
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: shield of faith, and I pray, and I put on
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: the belt of truth, and I put on the armor
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: of God, and then I go on my day. And
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I take it different than that. It's
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: not so much I'm not saying it's wrong to pray,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: because that's part of the armor to pray, to put
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: it on. But to me, it's certainly being rooted in
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: the armor. It's God's armor right in the power of
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: his might. But if I say, oh, that morning I'm praying,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: and I and but I go out and I'm lying, okay, well,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: that's not the best I'm the belt of truth or right,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: or I'm out there and I'm doubting all day. You know,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: it's that's not the shield of faith, right.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Or if I'm sinning, that isn't the uh righteousness.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, So to me, what I think, Hey, what I
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: think Paul is saying there is when you get up
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: on that day, make a commitment to live these things truthful, righteous,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: when when things come, you're going to respond in faith. Uh,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: for the darts, you know, and and the preparation of
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: the Gospel. You're always eager because your mind and so
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: as we live out the armor of God rather than
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: just you know, paulse has put on the armor, which
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I understand that, But it's more about living and by
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: living out the armor of God, that we with our
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: mind and other things that taking up the sort of
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: the spirit, the word of God, that the rama right,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: we're there, we're ready, rather than just like, well, I
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: got the Bible, I got into my backpack, I have
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: it with me all day.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Well, the word take up the sword of the spirit,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: which is the word of truth means quoting Scripture, I think,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: basically to ourselves, as Jesus did.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: In the mind. Right, So it starts in the mind,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: doesn't it.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, as Jesus did in the wilderness. So
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: we gain a wonderful insight as to how to resist Satan.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: And Jesus quoted Scripture each time very pointed to what
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Satan was tempting Jesus with, and it said that at
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: the end of that passage the devil left him for
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: a later more opportune time. So Jesus was tempted all
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: his life in the garden of Casemone. I mean, I say,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: and I'm thinking this as a new thought just now,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: that that was the time of greatest temptation for Jesus,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: because if Satan could convince him to forego the cross.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, avoid the cross. It's all done. All the rest
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: is for what.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: It is evaporated. And so, as I said earlier on,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: no one experienced the onslaught of evil, including the devil's
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: allurement and so forth, as did Jesus. And second to him,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's the Apostle Paul. When we did the
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: chapter on the Book of Acts. For this book, it
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: is remarkable. I think there are forty one or forty
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: two divine supernatural occurrences, and there are some in which
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: in which Paul resists Satan. And I think again of
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: the slave girl at Philippi who was following Paul and saying,
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: this fellow is preaching to you the Gospel. And Paul
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: finally says after three days. He gets annoyed at this
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: because she's associated with divination and here she's saying something
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: about the Gospel. So he turns around, and he rebukes,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: and he commands the spirit of divination to come out
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: of her, and she's delivered saved then, and that of
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: course sets the whole opposition of the city against Paul
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: and Barnabas Paul in Silas. So that's the chief occurrence
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: of the apostles confronting divination per se in the New Testament,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: And of course the whole Book of Revelation is exposing
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: to us the powers of evil angels and Satan. We
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: learn more about Satan, perhaps in the Book of Revelations
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: than anywhere else.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: It's his final it's his final act. He gets.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: And in the fifth and the sixth trumpet it says
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: that God allows uh demonic spirits to possess human beings.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: All those who are not believers become demonic possessed for
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: five months.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, think about that. They desire to die.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they cannot die because because demons cannot die
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: and don't want to die, and so their free will
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: is taken away. I write in the other book, mister Rapture,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: can you imagine what that must be like? Human beings
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: become part demonic, that is, anthropost becomes anthro demonsters whatever
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: exactly and can you imagine living in a world like
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: that and how horrible that will be. People who are
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: all millennialists, and let's say, who want to spiritualize the
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Great Tribulation have no idea as to how wicked that
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: period is going to be. There's no one would want
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: to live in it if they could avoid it. But
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: it's perhaps too late for most because they've sworn allegiance
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: to the anti Christ who is inspired by the devil. Yeah, absolutely,
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: and second Testimonians too. So these are very sober things.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: These are very sober things. But you know, again we
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: can wrap it up here that you know your book
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Supernatural Encounter is divine and Demonic, and then subtitle Dreams,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Visions and Prophecy, Pass and Present Exposing the Occult. I
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: mean this is uh for anybody that has again been
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: in the occult. I think this book is very good
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: anybody that is interested in understanding true spiritual warfare and
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: the foundation of what Scripture says that we again, even
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: though we get out and we might live in our
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: trust the science mentality in the Western world, there is
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: a whole unseen realm that is there that is challenging.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: And may I say that I devote three chapters to
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: what happened at Pentecost, two chapters historically what happened there.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: How the quotation of Joel's prophecy is so powerful I've
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: come to realize, and Peter quotes that in Acts two
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: on the day of Pentecost to explain the special visitation
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: of the Holy Spirit. Then the third chapter I deal
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: with spiritual gifts. Are all the spiritual gifts available today?
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: And my answer is yes, in varying ways and categories.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: And so I say that because that means that the
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Holy Spirit is the divine enabler of us to triumph
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: in the conflict of spiritual warfare. We have a person
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: who dwells within us, namely the Holy Spirit, to give
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: us victory every single day if we'll yield to him
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: and not to the forces of evil around us.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we do that certainly primarily through through the
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Armor of God, the Word of God, prayer of faith,
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: all those things that we've been discussing. And because I
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: don't again, I don't that Christian who is following the Lord.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: It's the goal is victory, right, I mean, And now
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: God defines the victory and he allows challenges, no doubt
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: he doesn't, and he allows him for his own reasons.
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, we're not here
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: just to get beat up by the enemy for the
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: rest of our lives and live a life of pessimism.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: So it is a life of victory.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: So anyways, well, I find another comment on that to
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: make is the Lord brings people into our lives and circumstances,
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: and these are not coincidences. These are part of the
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: plan of God. And some of this allows us to
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: reach people for the first time with the gospel. Other
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: times to reach people who have thought about the gospel
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: but have rejected it, and other people who are somewhere
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: in between those positions. And to speak on behalf of
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: the gospel is our sharing in the victory that Jesus
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Christ is ultimately going to went out at the end
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: of the Battle of Armageddon. But in the meantime, we
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: are to build the kingdom. We are to preach the gospel.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Yep, in the power I mean, it's the power of
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: God on the salvation. Right then we're Roman's one sixteen.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: We know that. So well, thank you everybody, Thank you
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: for joining me today and thank you for listening. We
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: do hope that you are empowered to live the Christian
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: life and again you can go to prophecywatches dot com
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: and see doctor de Young's book here Supernatural Encounters, as
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: well as all your other ones that are that we've
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: been discussing today. Thanks for listening, Thanks for always as
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: well your prayers and support, and we will catch you
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: next time.