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How Did Trick-Or-Treating Become a Thing? · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
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  Speaker 1: for tuning in, and Happy Halloween.
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  Speaker 2: Mary Sowen, Sam Hayne.
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  Speaker 1: Now I was just oh, I'm Ben your nol and
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  Speaker 1: we are immensely fortunate to be recording on this the
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  Speaker 1: most wonderful time of the year. Because while our while
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  Speaker 1: our good friend or write or die, mister Max Williams
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  Speaker 1: is encountering adventures rocking his white pants, we pulled some strings,
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  Speaker 1: we have a little bit of juice, we called in
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  Speaker 1: some favors, and Noel, we are joined yet again by
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  Speaker 1: none other that the Man, the Myth, the Heartbreaker of
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  Speaker 1: Paris super producer Casey Pegrum.
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  Speaker 3: Guys, this totally makes up for the hour of poop.
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  Speaker 2: Talk that I do endure it. I'll come on, really,
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  Speaker 2: how dare you?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Casey, as as you may or may not know,
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  Speaker 1: me and Noel often conspire, we talk about you all
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  Speaker 1: the time, dude, we're fanboys a little bit. The only
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  Speaker 1: people who talk about you more than us are, of course,
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  Speaker 1: our fellow Ridiculous Historians. So maybe before we roll in here,
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  Speaker 1: you've been back for a few episodes. We're going to
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  Speaker 1: continue this bit and we have to ask, just for
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  Speaker 1: everybody once again, what about your adventures? Man? What what's
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: what's going on in the world of Pegram.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm I'm domesticated these days. I have not
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  Speaker 3: been outside the country. I have not been on a
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  Speaker 3: a voyage more than one state away.
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  Speaker 2: A boy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a it was a good trip. It
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  Speaker 3: was a weekend trip to Miami. It was a lot
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  Speaker 3: of fun. We've never been to my it was my
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  Speaker 3: first time there, and it's a it's like another world.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. Get there before it sings, you know, enjoy.
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  Speaker 3: Why I can. But yeah, I mean my my kind
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  Speaker 3: of world gallivanting ways for the moment are kind of
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  Speaker 3: on pause. But we do hope to do some international
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  Speaker 3: travel soon to visit my west family and Cameroon as
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  Speaker 3: well as.
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  Speaker 2: Other other places amazing.
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  Speaker 1: And this will, I hope I'm not telling tales out
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  Speaker 1: of school. This will not be our brother Casey's first
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  Speaker 1: foray into that into that continent. Because, as people may
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  Speaker 1: or may not know, during another project that we that
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  Speaker 1: we worked on together, uh, Casey flew out to Johannesburg.
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  Speaker 3: That is true. That was an amazing experience and I
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  Speaker 3: still think back on that often fondly. And yeah, I
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  Speaker 3: can't wait to get back to the continent again. Although
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  Speaker 3: Cameron is quite different.
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  Speaker 1: Yea, yeah, yeah, far fewer africaners. Uh, that's true from
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  Speaker 1: what I understand. And and the thing about Miami is
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  Speaker 1: that Miami itself has uh it's kind of an East
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  Speaker 1: Coast Los Angeles. There is a unique culture, distinctive culture.
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  Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who are dressed up,
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  Speaker 1: which is the worst segue I've done this year, And.
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  Speaker 2: I was wondering it does seem, you know, from all
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  Speaker 2: the videos and whatever the vicarious experiences of Miami that
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  Speaker 2: I've had, it has sort of a carnival esque kind
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  Speaker 2: of atmosphere, right, Oh for sure.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna tell you.
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you guys, I've got some I've got
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  Speaker 1: some friends who live in Miami. They love it unanimously.
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  Speaker 1: And I've had a couple of Miami romances. And I
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  Speaker 1: haven't been to the town as an adult, but I
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  Speaker 1: imagine when I go there, I'll be like a schlubby
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  Speaker 1: Frodo esque hobbit. I will accidentally do cosplay in Miami,
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  Speaker 1: like like we accidentally did cosplay in Las Vegas. We're
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  Speaker 1: talking about costumes. That's the that's the pitch, that's the
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  Speaker 1: thing we are. We were earlier, Noel, you and I
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  Speaker 1: were talking on our show stuff They don't want you
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  Speaker 1: to know about all things Halloween. We did an episode
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  Speaker 1: recently on the practice, the fact of fiction of witch hunting,
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  Speaker 1: which is a terrible phenomenon that exists today in Cameroon
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  Speaker 1: as well, Casey.
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  Speaker 2: So well, you know, it came up at the end
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  Speaker 2: of the episode that there are still, despite you know,
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  Speaker 2: history and all the march of history, still quite a
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  Speaker 2: few which actual facts witch trials that take place to
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  Speaker 2: this day. And I do imagine that they, you know,
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  Speaker 2: are in countries where the law around those kinds of
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  Speaker 2: things is still a little more murky, you know, and
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  Speaker 2: a little more kangaroo quartie perhaps Papua New.
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  Speaker 1: Guinea, parts of rural India, rural areas of states on
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  Speaker 1: the African continent, and the Amazon.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, you hear people talking about voodoo in
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  Speaker 3: like a real palpable way sometimes.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And here in the United States, this obsession with strange
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  Speaker 1: things that go bump in the night, with the occults,
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  Speaker 1: with accusations of the infernal and the paranormal. These ideas
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  Speaker 1: have been commodified, monetized, and they've become the bedrock or
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  Speaker 1: the predecessors of some actual, pretty enjoyable stuff. Halloween is
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  Speaker 1: on the way as we record, and you know, us, folks,
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  Speaker 1: we had to do an episode to solve the history
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  Speaker 1: of trick or treating. You guys remember trick or treating
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  Speaker 1: where all all three of us lived in the US, Right,
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  Speaker 1: that's not a sleeper hit.
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  Speaker 2: Right, No, I remember it fondly, and my kid is
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  Speaker 2: only just now borderline aging out of it. You know,
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  Speaker 2: it's a lineal space, right, It is a little bit so.
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  Speaker 2: Around fourteen, I think, is when trick or treating becomes
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  Speaker 2: less about knocking on doors for candy and more about
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  Speaker 2: perhaps the trick aspect of the devil's bargain is implied
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  Speaker 2: with trick or treat. Yeah, my kid's good, good kid
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  Speaker 2: would never tp someone's house, you know, yeah, right.
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  Speaker 1: The trick or treat dichotomy, that's that's beautiful. And I
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  Speaker 1: think in the United States in general, the cutoff starts
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  Speaker 1: to occur when someone gets their learners permit, right when
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  Speaker 1: you can drive.
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  Speaker 2: So we're preparing for that with baited breath and heart palpitations.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we speak.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're gonna be sitting in the shotgun seat
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  Speaker 1: and unconsciously pump your foot on a break that doesn't exist.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the good news is the car that I've been
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  Speaker 2: driving for years now is totally paid off, and it's
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  Speaker 2: a very safe car that never had trouble with And
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  Speaker 2: I'm just going to gift it, you know, to my
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  Speaker 2: kid when they when they turn of age. And it
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  Speaker 2: means I get to buy a car for myself.
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  Speaker 1: Which is that on? Was that a Ford Focus?
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  Speaker 2: It's a Ford? Uh, Honda Fit does have a similar
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  Speaker 2: shape profile to the Focus, but they don't make Honda
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  Speaker 2: Fits anymore, So I've got to get something else because
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  Speaker 2: I have loved that. Well, they don't make it in America.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's available in overseas, but I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: I'll have to talk to you offline, Ben, you being
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  Speaker 2: the car stuff guy, about what I should get.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, hey, I'm I'm probably getting a new vehicle as well,
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  Speaker 1: So maybe we can make it a double date, go
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  Speaker 1: shop around.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah with a good cop, bad cop them?
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  Speaker 4: Yes?
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  Speaker 3: What was it?
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  Speaker 2: Vic? Vinegar always tend honey somebody honey something honey.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was honey, and hangar hank honey.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know. It was definitely alliterative, no question about
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  Speaker 2: it was yes, because alliteration is awesome.
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  Speaker 1: Get it.
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  Speaker 2: We're moving on.
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  Speaker 1: So trick or treating. How would we describe the concept
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  Speaker 1: of trick or treating to someone who was unfamiliar.
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  Speaker 2: Well, again, it is a there's an implied bargain. And
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  Speaker 2: if you watch the episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where
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  Speaker 2: Larry gets terrorized by some aged out trick or treaters
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  Speaker 2: who he refuses to serve, the cops come to his
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  Speaker 2: house and say, well, sir, did you give the treat?
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  Speaker 2: He's like, no, they were they were too old. He goes, well,
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  Speaker 2: if you don't give the treat, the implication is the trick.
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  Speaker 2: So again, I think that we've gotten to a place
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  Speaker 2: largely where the trick part isn't necessarily guaranteed. But it
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  Speaker 2: used to be that, yeah, you're giving an option of
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  Speaker 2: give me a treat or else you will be visited
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  Speaker 2: upon by some sort of malfeasance, whether it be you know,
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  Speaker 2: dog poop set on fire in as casey you knew
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  Speaker 2: poop was coming back that you have to stop out. Well,
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  Speaker 2: that's not malign, casey to, but who does it? Man?
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  Speaker 2: Who doesn't love a good poop joke? But yeah, I
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  Speaker 2: mean it's certainly the mischief aspect of it has always
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  Speaker 2: been kind of historically in play. Right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, here's the setting seen in setting. Folks in the
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  Speaker 1: United States on October thirty first, right as the twilight
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  Speaker 1: hour hits, right, golden hour fades away and the sun retreats,
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  Speaker 1: you will, depending upon your neighborhood, find yourself beset by
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  Speaker 1: roving group children and teenagers and sometimes their parents ringing doorbells.
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  Speaker 1: And when you answer the doorbell or the knock on
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  Speaker 1: the door, and they will be clad in any number
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  Speaker 1: of costumes, they will say the following phrase trick or
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  Speaker 1: treat hopefully with my feet, give me something good to eat?
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  Speaker 1: Please you don't I don't care.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a whole mythology around it. It's also it
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  Speaker 1: occurs in other countries as well. The way this covenant
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  Speaker 1: works is these kids show up and they ask for candy.
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  Speaker 1: They're dressed as you know, astronauts and vampires and whatever.
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  Speaker 1: And the weird thing about this is how normalized it
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  Speaker 1: is in a country that often behaves in a religiously
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  Speaker 1: conservative manner. So why has this thing, Why is this
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  Speaker 1: bit of theater every year been normalized, accepted and judge wholesome.
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  Speaker 1: It's because the origins of trick or treaty are still murky,
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  Speaker 1: but we know they date back really far. You can
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  Speaker 1: see predecessors in ancient Celtic festivals, early Roman Catholic holidays,
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  Speaker 1: some medieval social mores. And this was a surprise to me.
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  Speaker 1: Shout out to our research associate Jeff Bartlett. You can
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  Speaker 1: even see some traces of this in British politics. No,
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  Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned Sawen the ancient origin of Halloween.
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  Speaker 2: What is so? Yeah, it was what the Celts dubbed
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  Speaker 2: this particular season, involving villagers disguising themselves in various costumes,
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  Speaker 2: often made from animal skins. And it's something like we
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  Speaker 2: see in a lot of traditions, like I believe in
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  Speaker 2: like Chinese New Year, the drag and all the beating
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  Speaker 2: of the drums and the fireworks and stuff to scare
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  Speaker 2: away evil spirits. So it's again, we just did an
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  Speaker 2: episode of Stuff That Don't Want You to Know about
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  Speaker 2: witch hunts and talked about how the belief in evil
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  Speaker 2: spirits or demonic forces or the devil or whatever. Black
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  Speaker 2: magic is a tale as old as time, and it
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  Speaker 2: required some sort of intervention, you know, whether it be
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  Speaker 2: to spare your village from a blight you know, on
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  Speaker 2: the crops, or whatever, from like the death of children.
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  Speaker 2: Because you know, in past times these things were much
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  Speaker 2: more common. You'd know, people didn't live as long, and
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  Speaker 2: there was a sense that people could control their destiny
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  Speaker 2: and help steer the course of their lives by participating
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  Speaker 2: in some of these you know, events, And what we
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  Speaker 2: see now in the United States is obviously a much
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  Speaker 2: more sanitized, less functional version of this. But they were
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  Speaker 2: intending during Sawen celebrations to drive away these spirits. They
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  Speaker 2: would have banks that were prepared, food was left out
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  Speaker 2: to placate some of these spirits. That's also a thing
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  Speaker 2: we see in a lot of other cultures, like the
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  Speaker 2: hungry leaving hungry ghosts, leaving out food for your ancestors
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  Speaker 2: on a shrine perhaps, And you know, we see numerous
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  Speaker 2: flavors and styles of this kind of thing throughout history,
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  Speaker 2: and many of which really persevere today in what you
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  Speaker 2: could argue is a much more functional way, right yes,
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  Speaker 2: just so in terms of the level of belief that
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  Speaker 2: it will actually that it is accomplishing something. It's not
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  Speaker 2: just a kind of a marketing holiday, which is sort
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  Speaker 2: of what Halloween has become. If it's great though, it's
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  Speaker 2: so fun.
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  Speaker 1: It is so fun if you have not visited the
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  Speaker 1: United States and for October you can have a great time.
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  Speaker 1: The I love that you're bringing up the Celtic origins
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  Speaker 1: of sown here, and I love that we're we're talking
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  Speaker 1: about this commonality cultures, especially in northern latitudes, because during
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  Speaker 1: this time in autumn moving into winter, multiple cultures saw
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  Speaker 1: what they interpreted as a ven diagram, the barrier between
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  Speaker 1: the lands of the living and the lands of the dead.
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  Speaker 1: It grows thin, right, and the idea is just like
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  Speaker 1: a Voldrigis night. The concept is that demons, evil spirits,
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  Speaker 1: those who have passed before us, they all can roam
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  Speaker 1: the earth again for one night. And this reminds me
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  Speaker 1: of that the obvious, in my opinion, the obvious best
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  Speaker 1: part of Fantasia, which is.
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  Speaker 2: Cherabog, you know, Mountain wakes. Yes, it's terrifying. It holds
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  Speaker 2: up to this. It's really great.
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  Speaker 1: And what's nuts about this I guess with the benefit
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  Speaker 1: of wretch respect. Is the idea that people back in
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  Speaker 1: the day would dress up as spirits, would put on
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  Speaker 1: the countenance and costumes of demons as a defense mechanism,
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  Speaker 1: such just in case, you know, you run into a
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  Speaker 1: real life infernal spirit roaming the earth at night, they
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  Speaker 1: will clock you know, your they will clock your animal
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  Speaker 1: skins or your glued on horns, and they'll think, oh, yeah, no,
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  Speaker 1: he's cool, he's just he's out as well. For a second.
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  Speaker 2: It's funny how in like zombie movie culture or you know,
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  Speaker 2: the trope of zombie movies, something kind of evolved that's
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  Speaker 2: been done to death now haha a little bit. But
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  Speaker 2: the idea of pretending to be a zombie or covering
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  Speaker 2: yourself in blood or gore so that you can walk
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  Speaker 2: amongst them because somehow they know the difference between the
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  Speaker 2: living and the dead and they won't come at you.
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  Speaker 2: It's a good way of creating a diversion. Or I
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  Speaker 2: actually watched Sean of the Dead recently, which absolutely holds
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  Speaker 2: up as an excellent piece of filmmaking. Like it's just
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  Speaker 2: the editing is great. Everything about it is fabulous. It
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  Speaker 2: capitalizes on so many different tropes, but there's a scene
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  Speaker 2: where they all pretend to be and they allows them
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  Speaker 2: to move through the crowd of the zombie Horde.
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  Speaker 1: And so from this the first, the first folks we
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  Speaker 1: would call trick or treaters were kids in medieval Europe.
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  Speaker 1: They were not super well to do, and they would
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  Speaker 1: go door to door begging for food and money, not
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  Speaker 1: for funzies, not necessarily with costumes, but because you know,
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  Speaker 1: life kind of sucked for him and they had to
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  Speaker 1: do their best to stay alive. And they realized that
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  Speaker 1: if they went door to door during this Celtic holidays
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  Speaker 1: Sowin on October thirty first, they would have a higher
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  Speaker 1: rate of success asking for free stuff. And they would
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  Speaker 1: Here's where the trigger treat thing comes in, the first
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  Speaker 1: predecessor of the covenant, the exchange in exchange they would offer.
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  Speaker 1: It would say, give us whatever you can and exchange,
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  Speaker 1: we are going to pray for the souls of your
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  Speaker 1: dearly departed. This tradition was called in a burst of
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  Speaker 1: creativity solely l I G.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because a lot of this hinges on
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  Speaker 2: a time where it is acceptable to knock on a
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  Speaker 2: stranger's door and not be treated as a trespasser or
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  Speaker 2: you know, something to be feared and potentially dealt with, right,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: and that holds true to this day. Everyone knows that
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  Speaker 2: on Halloween you're gonna have people knocking on your door.
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  Speaker 2: And if you kill all the lights and don't have
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  Speaker 2: candy out and are not participants, that's when you are
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: maybe more likely to get dealt with, you know, in
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  Speaker 2: terms of like, ah, these old sour pusts, We're gonna
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  Speaker 2: do them a dirty trick. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so if we haven't mentioned before, it's the night
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  Speaker 1: before the Celtic New Year, So this is a momentous occasion.
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  Speaker 1: Let's fast forward to the Middle Ages. If you look
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  Speaker 1: at the Catholic Church, you will see this idea of
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: religious syncretism, which is the appropriation of previously existing spiritual
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: practices by a new school of metaphysical or religious thought.
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  Speaker 1: We want to give a big shout out to Smithsonian magazine.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Rose Evelyth wrote this absolute awesome article called the History
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: of trick or Treating is Weirder than You thought? And
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Rose one hundred percent agree. No notes. What they would
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  Speaker 1: do is, in the Catholic tradition, they would take some
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: take another belief systems holidays and attempt to leverage it
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  Speaker 1: as a way of proselytizing, of converting people to the
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  Speaker 1: Catholic faith. So they saw this ancient holiday, of this
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  Speaker 1: ancient process of swen and they said, well, you know,
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  Speaker 1: there's also All hallows E, all Souls Day, all Saints Day,
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  Speaker 1: and they for a time they had people dress up
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  Speaker 1: as saints or angels, and then you know a few demons,
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  Speaker 1: because every bit of theater needs a villain, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And once again we see religious fervor kind
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  Speaker 2: of changing the narrative a little bit around some of
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  Speaker 2: these holidays that are based around you know, pagan rituals,
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  Speaker 2: where it's like, oh yeah, let's not do it that
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  Speaker 2: way anymore. Let's try to change the themes so it's
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  Speaker 2: a little more on brand with our vibe, right yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And during this era we're still not quite to the
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  Speaker 1: modern Halloween. During this era are trick or treaters who
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  Speaker 1: went door to door exchanging prayers for food. They expanded
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  Speaker 1: the brand a bit. Instead of just promising prayers, they
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  Speaker 1: started also doing songs, even telling jokes, doing like a
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  Speaker 1: tight three minutes and which wasn't that long before the
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  Speaker 1: era of television, and they would maybe stage short performances
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  Speaker 1: at the doorstep or at the entrance. This tradition still
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  Speaker 1: exists in some ways. It was known as mumming m
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  Speaker 1: U m m G. There's an interesting note we found
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  Speaker 1: from Business Insider about how young women who are single
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  Speaker 1: would also do a series of rituals on All Hallow's Eve,
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  Speaker 1: with the idea being that they could divine the identity
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  Speaker 1: of their future husbands and get married by the following year.
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  Speaker 1: Because of course, if you're not buried by like sixteen,
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  Speaker 1: you're a horrible person with a foot in the grave.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Now. I hope this isn't too controversial, but you know,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I think we're all suckers for some etemal. You know
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: the term that's used for sex workers turning tricks. I
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: kind of wonder if that isn't rooted in this, because
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: while they're not performing sex acts for money, there is
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: a certain amount of what's the word, kind of seduction involved,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: or like kind of trying to ingratiate themselves to these
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: future husbands. Potentially, I just I do wonder maybe I'm
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: completely off.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Base there, there might be something to it. Etymology is
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: often muddy. Why I still have yet to create a
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: show just about etymology, like the source is tough, but
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: I believe it's early nineteen hundred's early twentieth century and
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: trick as a mischievous or naughty act for a sex worker.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: At the time, the idea was that the trick was
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a socially unapproved action. But again, it's still a covenant.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: You know you're exchanging something.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And these if we go to the idea of if
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: we go to the idea that the young women on
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: all hallow z, what kind of divination were they practicing?
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: What kind of magic were they practicing? There were things
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: you similar to what you might have done in middle school.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: If you watch something like The Craft, you might have
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: done like light as a feather, stiff as a board, uh,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: played with a wija board. These tricks would for these
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: folks looking to figure out their future spouse. They involve
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: stuff like throwing apple peels, or you would crack eggs
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: into a bowl, kind of like reading tea leaves. When
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you crack the eggs into the bowl, you look into
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: it like a rorshak image and you try to find
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: the initials of your future husband. There was even one
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: where you it's very bloody Mary or a candy man.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: There is one where you go in a room with
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: just like one candle and you look in the mirror
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: and you hope to see in the mirror a vague
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: reflection of your future spouse's face.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Why is it, guy? Be so spooky? That sounds I
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: don't want to do that. That doesn't sound like it's
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: not romantic at all, I don't think. So you're gonna
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: be like horrified when you see that person in real life,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: not to mention if it actually worked, you know, and
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: like who is that weird looking cat in the mirror?
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: You know, I just I don't know, I just what
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: if you don't like them? Yeah? You know, question what
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: if you don't like him? Was not really a question
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: of import back to those days in terms of marriages
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: going down.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: You know, the court of the occult did not have
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: a mechanism for appeals of decisions, just apple peals. So
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: there's also to the trigger treaters. There were these people
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: who would dress in costume and then they would perform dances,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: and the idea of the dances was that it was
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: a it's like a public service. You're scaring off the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: demons and in exchange, you receive food and drink, and that,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: as far as we can tell, is the rough origin
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: of when the trick part of the trick or treat
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: was bored, and there's all sorts of other stuff there.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: You know, you would get specific food if you were
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: going door to if you were a door to door
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: prayer sales person, you would get soul cakes, specific kind
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: of pastry, which again, to your point, reminds me of
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: the reminds me of the practice of feeding hungry ghost
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: in Asia.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Or like the sugar skulls involved with Day of the
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Dead celebrations going now in Latin America. And I believe
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: maybe they're they're they're they're a little different. But hot
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Cross buns they have like this X on them, and
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: the soul cakes also have that X on them, So
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I think that is meant to be like a It's
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: almost like a form of the Eucharists in a weird way,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: like maybe not exactly, but there is a certain body
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: of Christ aspect to it, at least it feels like
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some branding for sure, soul cakes and Hot
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Cross buns. That's a great comparison. Soul cakes were they
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: contained you need to still find versions of them today.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: They contain nutmeg, ginger, cinnamon, and raisins, which were very good,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: very hot at that point, and because you know, dried
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: candy fruit before the rise of sugar beets and cane sugar,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that was one of the sweetest things people could eat.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: The cross at the top of both of those pastries
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: or confections symbolizes a soul being saved from purgatory. The
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: earliest soul cakes were placed outside of homes like a
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: ring or a nest camera because the idea was this
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: will prevent these mischievous spirits from playing tricks on us,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: But eventually they just made them for the trick or treaters.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: So the tricks originally were like the mischief was from
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: mischievous goblin types, right, and then like a lot of
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: the trick or treating kind of like you know, was
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: almost meant to like we're gonna make you think that
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: we are are the demons, right again, it's not specifically,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: but over time it evolves, and I think that's part
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: of the impetus, where it's like we are pretending to
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: do the same things that the mischievous spirits would be doing.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Perhaps, yeah, Yeah, that is the evolution, and he yieled
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: it because it starts with infernal powers doing serious damage.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Then it goes to like little rascals from the unseen realm,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: you know, brownies and things like that, and then it
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: evolves to these people doing some sort of defensive service,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: and then it becomes cosplay. Then it becomes tradition. It's
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, not until then that folks start
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: offering treats to trigger treaters. And usually these obviously it's
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: not like a Snickers.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Bar or quote unquote treats.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: It's like nuts and fruits. And if you don't care
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: for raisins like we do, you would be disappointed for
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: several hundred years. They also just gave you apples, no caramel,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: just like, here's an apple.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: This is the kind of stuff that'll get your house
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: rolled instantly these days. Yeah, the old man Wilson gives
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: out apples like he's like the neighborhood dentists like, nah, man,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: that's not how we play.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: So one example, our modern growing up, our modern controversial family.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: In one of my neighborhoods, they got in trouble because
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: they gave out lottery tickets and packs of cigarettes to children.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Candy cigarettes just no, I think just regular cigarettes because
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: they were having a crazy party and looking back, I
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: think they were probably drinking and doing some other stuff.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: It probably want swingers too. One of those lottery tickets.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: I won two hundred bucks off of it. It was
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: a little scratch off ticket. So happy Halloween.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: So the idea of giving apples or dried fruits starts
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: with another festival, not Celtic, but Roman, the festival of Pomona,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: which in that civilization occurred during harvest, and Pomona is
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: named after the goddess of fruitful abundance that took place
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: on November first. But you know what's a little timeline
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: discrepancy between friends.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Apples have often been associated with plentiful nests, you know,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: the cornucopia overflowing harvest kind of, and also, of course,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: because of their shape and color, I imagine a symbol
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: of love and therefore fertility. And again we see a
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: lot of these things carry over into more kind of
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: sanitized versions in modern day. We see bobby for apples
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: or caramelized apples. Yeah.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Man, that's where it comes from, which I love that
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: we have an explanation for that, because even as a kid,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: that's sort of weird, right, like, hey, let me waterboard
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: myself for an apple.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't think that's bad. People still do that.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: It seems like it's like gone the way of lawn
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: darts to a certain degree.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: People still do it, particularly in my experience, particularly in
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Christian youth groups. That's where I see it most often.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: That's where you have like the hay ride bobbing for apples.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Let's make this thing wholesome and less associated with the demonic.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: There's also a kind of relationship or similarities at least
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: between Tricker Treating and Guy Fox Night aka Bonfire Night
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: aka the loose mcguffin plot device of VV for vendet.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Remember remember the what is it of September? The fifth
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: of November? November. That's of course it wouldn't be September,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: because it's got to be around spooky season. Yeah, and
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: that's you know, the mask, the famous Guy Fox mask
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: is largely I think the centerpiece of what we're talking
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: about on this night in question. There was a very
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: successful foiling of what's known as the Gunpowder plot in
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: sixteen oh five, and this was a plot to I
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: believe what blow up parliament?
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Guy FOWX big fan of the Catholic faith,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: hated Protestants. His idea was a little bit Rube Goldberg esque.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: He thought, if I blow up the Parliament building, King
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: James the First will be removed from power, and then
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: naturally everybody in the land will agree with me that
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Catholicism is cool.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Nope. That's why sometimes revolutionary acts like this are sort
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: of a little sad in retrospect, because so many people
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: get hurt and then they just replace them monarch.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: It's like, let us terrorize people into a green with us,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: And so on this night, which again commemorates this this event,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: British children wear or war masks and carry effigies of
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Guy Fox, and the masks themselves are basically effigies. Uh.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And they beg for pennies, which is that just seems sad,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: like like his whole deal didn't work. Why are they
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: begging for pennies A penny?
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Uh, you know, we don't inflation calculate on this one,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: but a penny worth more?
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you could buy it was actual precious metal,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: you know, right.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: And the Guy Fox day the celebration of it begins
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: pretty much right after Guy Fox is executed, and they
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: started making these bonfires and they lit effigies and that. Yeah,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and they called them own fires too, because the idea
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: was that they were burning the Catholic pope, very very
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: nasty stuff. And then by the early eighteen hundreds, these
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: kids would roam around the streets of England and they
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: would have effigies a Guy Fox and they would go
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: to door to door asking, quote, for a penny for
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: the guy.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Hey, can you get a penny for your guy? Here?
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Can my guy get a penny?
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Let me get a penny?
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Let me get a penny for the guy.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: So moving on trick or treating, which is you know
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: this it wasn't I want to know more when it
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: was called that? Like do we have that because none
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: of these these historical accounts quite you know, go all
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: the way into trick or treat, right, it's.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Pretty murky, Yeah, it's pretty murky. We can find competing
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: sources for the first time the phrase is in print,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: but we know that the act of asking for candy
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: it was around and wasn't always tied to Halloween during
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds, the mid nineteen hundreds, especially in
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: New York New York City, excuse me, sorry, Watertown. Kids
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: dressed up and they went looking for treats the same
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: way they do today. But they did it on Thanksgiving,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: which is weird. How many turkey costumes were there? When
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: did turkey become the Thanksgiving thing? Well that's a story
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: for another all right, I'm putting it on the list.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I did find a reference to nineteen twenty seven and Canada,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: which is when trigg or treat first started being a
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: thing verbally spoken. So good job to our neighbors to
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: the north for like coining the thing that we think
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: we invented.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Good hustle, guys, don't worry, we'll take more of your stuff.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Later in eighteen sixty three, our old buddy, famous trash
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: talk and amateur wrestler, also known for a couple of
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: other things.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Good reach out.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Abraham Lincoln. He's the one who said, all right, Thanksgiving,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be a holiday throughout all of these United States,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: which means kids get a day off from school and
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: children can just run wild. So go to New York
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies, New York City, Sorry, Buffalo some
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: kids decided it would be massive fun to cause play
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: as homeless people.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Which is so messed up considering what we've talked about
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: in terms of how originally this was actual facts. You know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: poor destitute British children exchanging a prayer, which is I
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: guess as where living on a prayer came from the
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: idea of like, that's all I've got to offer you
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: is my prayers, you know, for like some food, not
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: for funsies, but like for survival. So leave it to
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: the United States to take something that was once a
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: very real, you know, situation involving danger and kids living
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: on the street and turn it into sort of like
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: a cosplay, like you said, where these kids in the
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: eighteen seventies are dressing up in shabby, oversized clothes, probably
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: blacking their noses and cheeks with a burnt cork, you know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: carrying around a bindle like all of the kind of
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: you know, pick your poison like cliche images of unhoused
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: people throughout the years, and then they would get into
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: what could really just be described as trouble mischief, okay,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: and it became as known as I love this word,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: by the way, it became known eventually as ragamuffin day,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: ah ragamuffin and ne'er do wells and scamps, the whole
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: pantheon of poorly behaved children. I once called my ex
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: wife's niece a ragamuffin, and she took great issue with
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: that word. Triggered her. She was like, what is that?
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: That sounds like the worst thing that ever could be.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Don't you dare call me that again? Uncle Noel, or
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: I will end you. How old I think she was,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: about six? Maybe just dismissed. You're in the clear, fair enough,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: fair enough the statute of limitations as best. I think
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: she's probably forgotten all about it. We'll see, we'll see.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: And with this idea, this ragamuffin day, these kids sewing
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: chaos there became increasingly creative disguises because on some level
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: these kids don't want to get in trouble and cries
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: right right in the commission of crimes. So right before
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: the turn of the century, late eighteen hundreds, we see
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: that around. There's one article in PR quoted from eighteen
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: ninety seven, and it says the Thanksgiving is quote the
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: busiest time yeah for the manufacturers and dealers in mask
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: and false faces.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: The fantastical costume parades and the old custom of making
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: and dressing up for amusement on Thanksgiving Day keep up
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: from yeah to yeah in many parts of the country,
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: so that the quantity of false faces sold the season
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: is enormous false faces.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: What you've just described there, though, is the realization of
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: the commercialization of all of the history stuff that we've
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: been talking about.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Just so, and if you were to ask me before this, Ben,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: where does trigger treating come from? Where does the beautiful
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Halloween costume tradition come from? I totally would have missed Thanksgiving.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Oh for sure. And you guys, have you seen images
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: like on social media of like the costumes from the
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: thirties and stuff like earlier before like mass produced costumes
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: became a thing. They're horrifying turnups instead of pumpkins for
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: jack a ladder. But just like the faces, they're like
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: burlap sacks with a piece of twine wrapped around the neck,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, just and like weird gouged rough
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: holes cut in the eyes and mouths, like like something
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: like with the scarecrow would wear in Batman movie. You know,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's really scary stuff.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Like the old michelin man, Oh, just like that distressing,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: and then pretty much any pre nineteen fifties easter Buddy
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: cost us also hor horrific. So people are fighting against it, right,
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: the kids rebel and the authorities are squares, same as
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: it ever was, same as it ever was. There's a
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: school superintendent named William J. O'Shea, and he our buddy
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Willie tells all his superintendent goons that modernity is incompatible
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: with children masquerading and annoying adults by asking for gifts
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: and money. And then other organizations say they're making fun
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: of the poor.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: He well, I would argue that there is some truth
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: to that making fun of the poor part. But this
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: is also like this guy ended up on the wrong
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: side of history. He's like William O'Shea, the guy that
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: tried to murder Halloween. You know. But at the time,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: though I don't completely disagree with them, I think, you know,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: the whole Ragamuffin Day thing is a little offensive, you know,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: to people, especially when we're approaching the Great Depression, when
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: this stuff was nothing to sneeze at. You know, this
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: this level of like, you know, poverty and to even
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: be able to afford to masquerade as a poor person.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: You probably weren't a poor person. You were probably coming
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: from an upper middle class. Well, I guess middle class
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: didn't really exist quite yet. It was more just upper class.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: And now it's I love pointing out the Great Depression.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Now it's no longer funny satire. If satire's done well,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: has to come from a place of affection. That's what
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: makes the mockery work. When punching down right, when millions
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: of people are starving, unemployed, dying in the streets, then
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: dressing up as victims of what, even at that stage
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: was late stage capitalism, that becomes a totally different calculation.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: So Ragamuffin Day falls out of favor, but as it falls,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: a new thing rises. We reached the inflection point of Halloween.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: And it's entirely because some American colonists we're familiar with
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: practicing sown traditions and guy fallowies all hallows, all saints,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: all souls, all the things, and so they brought that
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: culture with them. By the mid eighteen hundreds, I want
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: to say, especially with the influx of Irish immigrants fleeing
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: the Potato famine, Halloween became a thing and in the process,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: it became thoroughly American.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, you know, the sort of I
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: guess sanitization or organization of trick or treating and Halloween
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: largely stemmed from the fact that the early kind of
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: unchecked version of this, when things were a little more
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: wild West again because of the Great Depression and a
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: lot of like a huge gulf between the haves and
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the have nots, there were a lot of acts of violence,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: you know, setting fires, assaulting people because there was a
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: real sense of like, I don't know, resentment kind of
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: just like festering in this country. And so in order
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: to kind of stem that, one theory says that the
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: widespread adoption of a more community based, kind of family
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: friendly trick or treating tradition in the thirties was really
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: crucial to kind of cutting down on some of this
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: more you know, mischievous Dare I say criminal acts?
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: M m.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Let's get these rowdy kids under control. You know,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: we're talking about stuff like the origin of Devil's Night
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: in Detroit, which is the crow.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's what I always think of.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And it's also it's an escalation of that. Instead of
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: toilet papering someone's house, or putting a bunch of forks
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: in their yard or throwing eggs out there at the siding. Instead,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: we're talking physical assaults or setting the whole house fire, vandalism,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: acts of violence. And the weird thing is that if
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: you look at stuff like Miriam Webster, you'll see etomologists
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: like Barry Popik Popik who suggests that trick or treat does,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: as you mentioned, go back to the nineteen twenties when
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Canadian newspapers use variations of the term. I think it
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: was November nineteen twenty three the Saskatchewan Leader Post said
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: that fighting against this idea of child led violence, they said, treats,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: not tricks, are the order of the evening, Hugs not drugs.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a November nineteen twenty four article published
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: in Alberta's Red Deer Advocate, which is such a Canadian
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: name for a newspaper, that had this to say. And
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: by the way, Halloween in a lot of these printings
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: is spelled ha llowe apostrophe e n, which seems very
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Canterbury Tales to me for some reason. But this is
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: what the Red Deer Advocate had to say. Halloween night
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: was observed in the usual manner by the young bloods
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: in Penhold. Fun is fun and tricks are tricks. But
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: when such public buildings as school and Memorial Hall are
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: molested with no opinion for trick or treat, we cannot
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: see where either fun or trick is enjoyed by the participants.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Speaking of Hannterbury Tales talk, this is a little You
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: gotta run this through a couple of filters to unpack
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: what they're even talking about here. Help us out, Ben,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: The idea here is that. The idea here is that
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: picture the Transatlantic voice. When you hear this, it's written
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: with a bit of a high faluting tone. But they're saying, ultimately,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: this is not good for anyone. Order must be maintained.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: These scamps, these ragamuffins, these nahd wells. If you look
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: south across the border in the United States, the first
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: printed example of the phrase goes to nineteen twenty eight.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Michigan's Bay City Times talks about tricks or treats and
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: they call it the fatal ultimatum. So metal you know
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: what I mean, Finisher bump.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Them jock Jams version of Mortal Kombat. There's a really
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: great quote here. Also, by the way, the fact that
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: you mentioned this is very interesting. Nineteen twenty eight in
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Michigan Devil's Night obviously Detroit, Michigan, so that part of
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: our country, which is also really close to Canada. By
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: the way, Detroit makes sense that it would kind of
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: filter down to there, and the Devil's Night would be
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: such a uniquely Detroit kind of thing. Again, I may
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: not be completely on base with that, but there's an
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: excellent quote from that Bay City Times article you mentioned,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: referring to let's see it is a phrase, a dreaded
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: utterance by quote some small child who clutched in one
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: grubby fist, a small chunk of soap capable of eliminating
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: the transparency from any number of windows or mischief? What
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: key the out of sides?
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: What's indoors or outdoors?
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Jeez mayhem?
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Absolutely chaos, pandemonium, cats and dogs.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: They saying this with tongue in cheek. They're not.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: They were very mad about it.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, are you serious? I really can't tell if
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: you're being serious or not.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: I am being serious. They were upset.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: How dare they eliminate the transparency of our windows.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Like a penny a window was a bigger deal back
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: in the day.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: That's a good point. Yeah.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: In the nineteen twenties, this idea of souling right, of
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: advocating for the dead loved ones right, it was replaced
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: with prankie as the Great Depression hit, as socio economic
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: problems got turned up to eleven, the Shenanigans got worse,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I would argue, because they became a socio economic vent,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: an escape hatch for all these pent up aggressions, absssions, resentiments,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: you know, traumatic experiences, and that's where we see the
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: cars getting overturned, the houses getting be in need broken
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: and entered, and even harassment physical assault. Fast forward today,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: why is that not happening. It's because parents and community
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: leaders got together and said, we need to pivot, we
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: need to steer the ship in a different direction. Let's
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: try to make some wholesome iterations of these traditions, because
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: otherwise we're doing the purge once a year.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: One hundred percent. But also, the purge is an interesting
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: concept in the movies for a reason because in that
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: society that exists in the purge, we're not saying all
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: of them are good, and maybe even the first one
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: is not good. But the concept's interesting is that, like
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: in order to it's an acceptance of this primal urge
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: in human beings to absolutely f stuff up and to
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: just act out on their most you know, animalistic kind
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: of impulses. And that is sort of what Halloween became
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: in a certain sense before it was sort of sanitized.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Is like, you know, whether it's let your freak flag
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: fly dressed in a crazy costume or like burn an
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: abandoned car. It did involve this one night where we
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: could run with the demons, we could run with the
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: ghouls and be part of that cliqu and let out
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: a lot of those things that will allow us to
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: every other day of the year live like good civilized Christians. Yeah,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: I think you've outlined it well. I think I am
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: not alone and saying that is morally bankrupt and a
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: very it's an evil thing.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: But this idea of turn of pivoting towards something more wholesome.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: This brought communities together and they would say, well, we're
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: not going to just let our kids and maybe criminals
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: run the streets. We're gonna get together at the community center,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: you know, the church, the local Elks club, lab parades,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: and the parades from the twenties turn into the nineteen fifties.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: But here, Casey Noel Fellow, ridiculous historians. Here, towards the
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: end of tonight's show, we can tell you the origin
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: of the phrase, not tricks or treaty, not trick or treating,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: but the freeze.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Trick or treat.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: It does have dashes, It does have a discernible origin.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: It becomes a catchphrase thanks to Charlie Brown and Charles Schultz,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: the peanut Gey, the Great Pumpkin.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: I think Charlie Brown is so cool. I think Charlie
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Brown is the like mainstreaming of sarcasm in so many ways.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Those characters were so they're like jaded, weird little children
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: that are like no way too much.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: And also a normalized male pattern baldness for four year olds.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and therapy, you know with like was it Lucy No,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: which one is the one that always pulls the football
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: away from Charlie. I think it's Lucy. It's Lucy. And
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: she always had the little lemonade stand that was like
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: therapy for like fifty cents or whatever. In my gosh,
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: that probably was like one hundred dollars back then, But yeah,
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: it was in a comic strip, because before we even
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: had the animated version of Peanuts, we had these comic
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: strips in the early fifties. You're right, that phrase appeared
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: in those. So the next time you watch It's the
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown, you do need to sometimes take
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: stock of what is as modern ish as that stuff
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: seems even today, that stuff was a historical hallmark in
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: so many ways, you know, just like Doctor Seuss in
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: certain phrases and words that were coined, Like a lot
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: of these things that we take for granted as because
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: again they've been so sanitized and mass produced and commercialized,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: we don't remember that a lot of these pieces of
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: pop culture actually steered the history of this country and
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: of like the way we think about these kinds of things.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this practice, it ebbs and flows. It
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: encounters a difficult time during World War two, due to
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: you know, the World War and due to sugar rationing,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: the rationing of everything, no more sweets, no more sweets,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: and at the at the height of the post World
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: War two economic boom, right, the origin of the what
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: we call the baby boomers trig or treating is cool again,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: and then millions of kids and families buy in, especially
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: because there are suburbs built everywhere, right, and these are
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: just hou housing neighborhoods. You can walk for miles and
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: see nothing but residential stuff. And candy companies get in
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: on this because sugar rationing is gone, and they start saying, hey,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: let's normalize buying a ton of candy every year. Today,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: the United States spends an estimated three point one billion
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: dollars on candy during Halloween alone.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Dude, I went to Bert's Pumpkin Patch week or so ago,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: which is this place like north of here in Atlanta
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: and the kind of North Georgia Mountains adjacent kind of area,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: and I spent seventy five dollars or more on pumpkins.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I'd never done that before. But I'd also never been
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: to the pumpkin patch. And to a previous point you
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: made about like the sort of like community, sort of
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: like let's take the evil out of Halloween. This I
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: went on my first hay ride. And on this hay ride,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: I think we actually talked about this in a previous episode,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: but you passed this part where there are these like
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: really rudimentary animatronic pumpkins that give you a little lesson
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: on the scripture real quick. And I thought that was
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: charming and a little weird.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: Twisted, right, Dylan Dylan said when he went there too,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: And yeah, and it's nuts because look, has it been commercialized?
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Has it been monetized? Absolutely? Is there a bit of
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: appropriation inherent in it?
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Arguably?
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: But is it still awesome? One hundred percent. And that's
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: where we end the episode. Tonight, go forth, ye, creatures
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: of the Evening, have a great time, save some souls.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: I think we're legally bound to tell you not to
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: commit dangerous pranks.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, don't do that. You could get in trouble.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: We are officially required to tell you it is not
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: super duper easy to get away with.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: A lot of that. Yeah. We are also super legally
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: required to tell you that the Anarchist Cookbook is not
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: available in PDF format on the open Internet.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: It is super not easy to find it wherever you look.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: And you know what, though, with those I love that
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: we did it that way, with those caveats aside, we
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: as we get to the end of the year, we
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: just want to thank everybody so much for tuning in
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: the show only happens because you're here, and we owe
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: a big, big thanks to mister Max Williams to miss
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: your casey, pegram Casey, are you taking a you're doing
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: a trick or treat thing.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: We're gonna try it. This will be the first year
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: with my son trigger treating and we're gonna we're gonna
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: dip our toes in the pond. Because he's a little uh,
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: he's very independent minded. He doesn't necessarily stop when you're
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: tell him to.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: He's just gonna go running off, setting houses on fire
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: and stuff. What is he like to two and a
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: half ish?
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: Two and a half?
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, what kind of costume we haven't We
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: haven't gotten you yet. Little kids do really well in
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: chucky costumes. Just putting that out there because because of
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: their stature, that's a good joke.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Also great pumpkin. I think a lot of kids in
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: the United States, one of their first Halloween costumes, especially
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: when they're still infants and a bit rotund, they often
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: gets as French chefs.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: Ooh, I like that.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: I ever heard of that in my life. But I
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: don't know if I bost you, but I do like fully
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: you like that, you know, really quickly before we wrap
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: it up. Do each of you have a favorite Halloween
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Tree Edition movie that you enjoy watching. I'm a big
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: fan of Halloween is Grinch Night, the psychedelically weird Doctor
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Seuss Grinch Short.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I guess something wicked this way comes. I've got a
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: lot of hocus pocus just for the fun. Of course,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: you like Carnival of Souls a lot. You always talk
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 55:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, oh man, Carnival of Souls is like so amazing.
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: I mean it's also not because it's also, like, you know,
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: not a very well made movie. But I don't know,
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: I have that look like Ben I had that like
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: deep love and appreciation for it as well. So and actually,
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: if you want to learn more about Carnival Souls, check
• 55:40
  Speaker 5: out the ephemeral episode titled HERK Harvey, where we dive
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: into the movie's director and the fact that he wasn't
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: you know, a guy who made feature films. Carnival Souls
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: is literally his only credit in that way.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: Also, you know The Exorcist, I got a whole playlist.
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: I'm deep on that.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: How about you.
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: Pegrim gotta go with the shining you know, it's the
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: classic scene. It a million times and to me, nothing
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: better every tall.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: More than that movie. Yeah. Do you think those takes
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: that Shelley Devaal did got better every time? All seven
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: of them? They just slowly drove her mad. I feel
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: like there's a sleeper in those takes.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: That no number like seventy seven was the one, you know, yeah, yeah, right,
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: are those archives somewhere, Casey, all those unused takes probably
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: the film probably they were, they were they were looking
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: to reuse the silver from the film. I think, I think, yeah,
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: I think Cupick probably destroyed all.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: The excess footage.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: I remember seeing an interview about that where someone asked
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: him that very question. But also, Shelley Duvall got robbed
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: because she was given a Razzie award. That's right for
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: that performance, which is egregious.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: It's a genius. It's fabulous. Also, that's bulls.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Check out our pals uh Jack of Miles over the
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Day a Zeitgeist if you want to learn why the
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Razzies are just a garbage fire.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: It's not good.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: They did. They retroactively retracted that Razzie for Chilly Devall.
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: But they did it like a few years ago. You know,
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: it stood for like thirty something years.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: It's like Pitchfork reevaluating their review of Daft Punk Discovery, pretting.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: It huh, but better late than never. As cheech Marin
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: said in Ghostbusters two, when the Titanic arrives, Ghostbusters do
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: another cool holiday film. I think a big, big thanks
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: of course to mister Alex Williams composing this slap and
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: bop you hear at the very end. Who else know
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: who else?
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Oh well, speaking of Alex Williams, please check out if
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: you're into something spooky, The Thirteen Days of Halloween from
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Aaron Mankey, that at this point should be well into
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: its thirteen episode run. There's also I believe three or four,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: maybe three seasons of it to enjoy. It's like for
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: the Yaml del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosity and audio form.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: It's really immersive, really really cool, and highly recommend that
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: you give it a listen. Also huge thanks to Eves,
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Jeff Coat, Christopher hasiotis here in Spooky Spirit.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Research associate Jeff Bartlett, our pal Gabe Lucier, and of
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: course the Man who Must probably needs no introduction, the
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: man known for always dressing in a gruesome costume. I
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: can only assume regardless of what day of the year.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: It is Jonathan Strickland aka the Quizz.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: That is a costume, right, Yeah, it's a really successful
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: balt cat.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: I've never asked them. I don't know how I ask
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: people that, and of course I think touch it. Thanks
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: to you go in Casey, Happy Halloween you as well.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: Ben. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.