Latest / Sessions Canceled / Waaaghing With War Games: Ep. 43

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Waaaghing With War Games: Ep. 43 · Sessions Canceled

• 0:10
  Everybody welcome back to sessions canceled podcast,
• 0:13
  tracing the infinite stole mat. So we have a special guest with
• 0:17
  us today but sessions canceled obviously.
• 0:21
  So what bras guck BRAC guard is our special guest.
• 0:24
  Why don't you introduce yourself to the the cast?
• 0:27
  Wait, what is Corey is Greg's a project sundering, word of the
• 0:30
  core of rare, are you me doing we're doing quite well.
• 0:37
  Thank you, thank you very much. Thanks.
• 1:09
  Applying a torque to that money. Isaiah me, and Isaiah did not
• 1:13
  know. That was coming.
• 1:20
  We're gonna need a text from Joe for that one.
• 1:24
  What did one? The, we're in the 41st
• 1:27
  Millennium, get with the times. What is the 41st Millennium?
• 1:34
  I'm gonna be one of those losers.
• 1:35
  They feed to the a chair. You're a sychar.
• 1:39
  Congrats, my guy, you have psychic powers.
• 1:42
  Oh yeah, I forgot that. You had.
• 1:44
  No, you have to be a psychic for that one.
• 1:49
  You're more than likely to be a Guardsman.
• 1:51
  Yeah. GT my guy.
• 1:59
  At least you got a shovel. Duke Energy but he's he's not
• 2:05
  going to use that very well unless he's a kruseman.
• 2:07
  So, No. Anyway.
• 2:11
  Yeah as per usual here though. Yeah, Josh is here and Isaiah is
• 2:18
  here and Matt the over transforming person / orcas here
• 2:23
  boy. Yeah.
• 2:28
  Mandy launches. Hit us with a know.
• 2:36
  What's your name? A orc name generator my get a
• 2:48
  surprise even gave me a title of anything.
• 2:52
  Sorry during why greca of the Glorious risk.
• 2:54
  You should have, you should have, you should have put the
• 2:56
  title and afterwards. It's a lot of words.
• 3:00
  It isn't it? Yes.
• 3:01
  Yes it is. What is a?
• 3:03
  Why Rekha You're a war wrecker. Oh, I see yeah.
• 3:09
  Why is war. So I knew trying to understand
• 3:12
  the language. You got to translate everything.
• 3:17
  I also like how you said you were a brain boy.
• 3:23
  Sam. What are we doing?
• 3:26
  What are we doing?
• 3:47
  Yes, today's topic is about more gaming.
• 3:50
  You guess that you You fucking knew that?
• 3:52
  Don't bullshit fucking knew that.
• 3:54
  Yeah, I mean, just acting like you, are you get to breathe
• 4:15
  another? Then that is a great prize in
• 4:17
  the 41st Millennium. You have no idea.
• 4:19
  That is quite a good price. I Fucking nice.
• 4:23
  Just nice clean air, especially because you probably live in the
• 4:25
  hive City. GG mic ygg.
• 4:27
  You got some nice clean air, good for you.
• 4:30
  Let's give him a round of applause so I at least get to
• 4:34
  make it to mid-level Hive. Or am I stuck in the under Hive?
• 4:38
  We can listen, we can't keep going down.
• 4:40
  This 40K thing, I don't know what's going on.
• 4:43
  Oh, so we are going down to the lower Hive.
• 4:44
  He said we're going down so sorry, you know.
• 4:48
  Yeah, sorry my guy, you know, sometimes you win sometimes.
• 4:51
  Um, sometimes you have raw sewage as long as we're on a
• 4:55
  necromantic, should be okay. Okay.
• 4:59
  Listen, the chances of Nick Rimando are like, you know, I'm
• 5:03
  not doing that math. All right Sam.
• 5:06
  Shut up. Alright, so I have some
• 5:20
  questions for you all but Mostly we're going to talk about the
• 5:23
  difference between, or gaming and tabletop RPGs, because they
• 5:28
  both tabletop games are usually, do both indeed occur on a table
• 5:33
  test. The, sometimes a virtual one,
• 5:35
  but also sometimes not times. Yes, you know how they've
• 5:39
  influenced each other over the years and how we can kind of
• 5:43
  influence your mom. Not a puppet up up.
• 5:46
  I we're starting off real strong with this way.
• 5:48
  Yeah. Now this is if you got in this
• 5:51
  as far end and you haven't just blacked yourself, who
• 5:54
  perseverance my friend. So it's for my mom actually
• 5:59
  listen to me by the way. My Mom Lori.
• 6:11
  It's not her name. Oh shit, that's all I know he's
• 6:17
  gonna continue before I docks. My mom, why we're here or corny?
• 6:25
  Yes, now I'm wondering. Yeah, that that's that's a
• 6:30
  fucking mouth. My parents.
• 6:33
  Don't forget your name. Never mind.
• 6:37
  It's fine. It's fine.
• 6:38
  I won't take this. It's right there.
• 6:41
  Yeah, just just just, just step away from the whole style, take
• 6:43
  a look at blocks deep, it goes Josh, very deep help.
• 6:48
  But yeah, we're going to talk about the differences between in
• 6:51
  my defense. It is about they buy those
• 6:53
  clothes. Yes.
• 6:55
  It lies between the two types of tabletop games.
• 6:59
  How they've influenced them and how we can use ideas from either
• 7:02
  one of them to fix some of the problems with them.
• 7:11
  And a few other things, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about
• 7:13
  random shit at least me and I say, oh well, so I know that
• 7:18
  this, this is, this is, this is the D&D problem.
• 7:21
  The most well-known or gaming game out there is Warhammer 40K,
• 7:29
  probably followed by Warhammer fantasy.
• 7:34
  So a lot of our a lot of our conversations probably going to
• 7:37
  revolve around 40K and Stephen D because you know, as the face is
• 7:41
  quote unquote of their two respective, genres of tabletop
• 7:47
  games. Now what I guess that does apply
• 7:50
  hot, they are genres. So what would be the?
• 7:53
  Well I wouldn't say that under equivalent there is there a type
• 7:58
  of dare dare? Yes, they're different.
• 8:02
  How do you understand? What do you mean like a
• 8:04
  spin-off? That like something like the Big
• 8:07
  Mac is biggest in second place. Yeah.
• 8:09
  Oh I don't know. Second place of prayer which
• 8:14
  games or wargaming war games or any more game.
• 8:17
  Yeah I I don't know. It might I just not fucking
• 8:25
  combat because it just wargaming is more Niche than tabletop
• 8:29
  RPGs. Have it?
• 8:30
  I know I'm curious probably X-Wing.
• 8:38
  Well yeah probably I have you guys ever looked into X-Wing a
• 8:43
  little bit. It's really fun like it.
• 8:45
  Okay. Not fun but it's really cool.
• 8:47
  I mean most ever play it cool. And then you're just like damn
• 8:52
  that looks It's amazing. And then you look at the prices
• 8:54
  of things and how long it takes the place again and you go.
• 8:57
  Yeah. Maybe in 30 years.
• 9:00
  Yeah. I the last time I looked into
• 9:02
  x-wings, we were still in college.
• 9:04
  And I remember the archwing fighter was dominating and
• 9:09
  that's not surprising. I went to a hobby shop with
• 9:11
  Cardell in somebody, he knew was he was like setting up and he
• 9:17
  said he's fucking archwing Fighters.
• 9:19
  Fucking hate these things. Like oh, that's rough.
• 9:25
  Bud. Oh, there's also blood Bowl.
• 9:29
  That's another one. Oh yeah.
• 9:30
  Well that's a Warhammer one. That's right.
• 9:35
  That's all. Yeah.
• 9:36
  But like you know, there's also access my allies.
• 9:40
  It's another one. I'll pack it risk.
• 9:43
  Rest is another word right ladies?
• 9:50
  Is it? You have units and you move them
• 9:52
  and you roll dice, you do. I guess I feel like people
• 9:54
  mostly call risk a board game is the weird thing.
• 9:57
  About it while. Alright, so a war game
• 9:59
  technically, isn't it a board game?
• 10:01
  Like this is all board like so, so kind of so that.
• 10:07
  So the thing is, is that most wargaming games are generally a
• 10:13
  like platoon sized Army that you don't have an actual army army.
• 10:18
  It's usually like a squad and you have them fight risk.
• 10:21
  However, is the strategy board game.
• 10:23
  It's like the 4X game of war game.
• 10:25
  Yeah, this way. Matt.
• 10:27
  Let's put This way, our war games are board games.
• 10:31
  Not all board games are war games, right?
• 10:33
  Okay, that's what it's actually always.
• 10:35
  Why do we always have to bring squares?
• 10:37
  And rectangles is ok, there is this really weird art school?
• 10:45
  It's a pretty cool offshoot of 40K called Titanic is where you
• 10:48
  play Titans. And I was watching.
• 10:51
  Another podcast was watching the depth of ridiculous because I
• 10:55
  think they're pretty cool. And they were saying that.
• 10:57
  People play Titanic hiss with actual models and it's called an
• 11:01
  Armageddon match. So people will have you know,
• 11:05
  four foot fucking Titans and just like it's like a million
• 11:09
  point Army like and I got probably 100,000 put on me and
• 11:13
  you just wanted to ridiculous that you would never be able to
• 11:15
  field it in the actual like. Yeah.
• 11:17
  And like you judge everyone has control of like a Titan or some
• 11:20
  nights or something and it's just the map that it's like a
• 11:23
  warehouse floor. Yeah, it's been awesome.
• 11:29
  I just out of money in that room you might have paint and just as
• 11:34
  you have to do like it, those things are big.
• 11:37
  That's not like a small project to make one of them.
• 11:40
  It's you Something else, honestly, there's a bunch of
• 11:45
  them on my dust 1947 is a sort of thing is.
• 11:49
  There's a lot of them but like Matt.
• 11:51
  Yeah. No.
• 11:52
  I know. Nobody's playing.
• 11:55
  I know it's a very, very neat, like you guys had very nice but
• 11:58
  I'm just surprised of like, yeah, Marvel crisis protocol.
• 12:01
  I remember going to a fucking yard sale and one of my
• 12:04
  neighbors had a bunch of the I used to have these little Marvel
• 12:07
  figures and I didn't know where the fuck they came from.
• 12:10
  But they now looking at These I'm like, oh shit, it's from
• 12:14
  this this board game, there's a lot of, there's a lot of figures
• 12:18
  figurines rather is what they like to call them forward
• 12:22
  gaming. And you'll just be like, oh, I
• 12:24
  have no idea what this is, but I like that figurine, dude.
• 12:26
  That was cool head like a fucking had all the Marvel
• 12:29
  characters and then no bad guys, except for one or they called
• 12:35
  Sentinels X-Men. The big robots.
• 12:38
  Yes, Sentinels, Matt. You're supposed to put guy.
• 12:41
  I know, I forgot. What the name was for a minute
• 12:43
  there? I'm like, Sentinel sounds right.
• 12:45
  But yeah, that was the only bad guy had.
• 12:48
  Apparently there's a game called malifaux which is pretty popular
• 12:53
  and it seems like a medieval. It's Not Like a Dungeon Crawler.
• 13:00
  It just sort of seems like a Like a medieval killed him Style
• 13:05
  game like small groups, fighting in cities to mean how DND
• 13:09
  started. Yes, but like it's like
• 13:12
  squad-based like Are you Game of Thrones?
• 13:17
  All right, there is a song of ice and fire him.
• 13:21
  I mean, sure, I forgot that we're gaming, literally started
• 13:24
  because of World War Two. Yes, yes, that was.
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  I at some point? Yeah, I always forget about
• 13:30
  that. The first war game was World War
• 13:32
  Two simulators. Basically, the literally, this
• 13:36
  is how the detectives I would just, yeah, literally play word
• 13:39
  games, which is a thing that they do in 40K by the way, they
• 13:42
  replicate that by playing war hammer.
• 13:45
  It does actually I didn't watch the video but there is a video
• 13:47
  of the US military, playing a war game, but it's like on a
• 13:51
  giant like 3D hologram like board on the floor.
• 13:55
  Its massive. This looks so cute.
• 13:57
  That's that's hey, Matt. Yeah.
• 14:00
  Um, that's literally wargaming. Like they have like several
• 14:03
  months of that in life. Yeah.
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  Like I used to work with people that did that.
• 14:09
  That's cool. Like, genuinely I never stepped
• 14:12
  foot in the building. You're not allowed to win.
• 14:14
  Happening. Like they get there.
• 14:16
  They ramp up the security for that but I've known people who
• 14:20
  have been in the building working when that event is going
• 14:24
  on. Shit.
• 14:26
  Yeah, I saw it's impressive. If I remember correctly, there,
• 14:30
  gygax was a big fucking nerd who like to play a lot of the World
• 14:33
  War, Two wargaming stuff, which is, yes.
• 14:35
  I know how it all started. So you know what, there we go.
• 14:41
  That goes into one of my questions.
• 14:42
  How have these games influence each other?
• 14:45
  And it's called Gary. Gygax literally made D&D?
• 14:48
  Yeah. He's scary was a big nerd war
• 14:50
  came. He's a big bear and he played a
• 14:52
  lot of WWII war games. And then he also played chain
• 14:56
  mail which was a male that's what made it even more gaming.
• 15:01
  It was basically a, it was a, it was a hack who's basically Act
• 15:04
  of the World War Two game from my understanding.
• 15:06
  I don't know any specifics but as far as I'm aware, R.
• 15:09
  And at some point, I don't know what the impetus was, or what
• 15:13
  the story was specifically. But at some point homeboy was
• 15:15
  like What? If instead of the whole Army we
• 15:19
  just focused on like or 26 nerds in the Army and they went into
• 15:25
  like a dungeon or something, but if we do that man that that
• 15:30
  explains all the whole lot about the ending, you know, originally
• 15:34
  function. Yeah, I mean yeah, I don't know
• 15:36
  if you guys know but when The original version like through
• 15:40
  first edition when people talk about first edition D&D, it
• 15:44
  really mean like 1.5 yeah, Advance through first edition
• 15:51
  was not even a complete Game. You had to buy two other games
• 15:54
  to play the game. Yeah, I remember that.
• 15:56
  Yeah, yeah yeah. Says a lot in the art Arcana
• 16:00
  book that came out a couple years ago about like the
• 16:02
  original versions and Mike Geary going to like miniature shops
• 16:06
  and like it's like oh how was the owl?
• 16:08
  Bear made. Oh, they just found this just
• 16:10
  fuse. These two men he's together and
• 16:11
  do like it's an owl and a Baird, I'm a genius.
• 16:14
  I am a genius. I, you know, they had to do a
• 16:17
  club that I brought this up because I'm being informed about
• 16:20
  what if my favorite monsters the Albury.
• 16:23
  Yes. Yeah, you had to get the
• 16:25
  Wilderness survival rules. Yeah.
• 16:29
  And I think there was like a dungeon book or something like
• 16:33
  that. Forget that there's actually
• 16:35
  another shout-out. Matt Koval did it.
• 16:38
  Video. I think he literally named all
• 16:40
  that shit in the it's like a early early running the game
• 16:43
  video. Yeah.
• 16:50
  I had a follow-up point and then my brain said, no you don't and
• 16:53
  I went up anyway. Didn't you said?
• 16:57
  Because I forgot. You know that.
• 16:59
  That's okay. I'm sure it'll come around
• 17:01
  eventually. Probably.
• 17:02
  I'll just scream emerging 20 minutes to forgot.
• 17:09
  You did that? I did that was the thing.
• 17:12
  Yes. Okay, so Mike is so because
• 17:16
  we've already talked about how, you know, the history.
• 17:19
  Three of them are connected. I guess I just thought.
• 17:25
  Damn, I actually just did the thing.
• 17:26
  I said I did today I was gonna say is originally.
• 17:31
  If I remember correctly, part of the intention of D&D was that
• 17:34
  you would D&D was almost like a supplement to chainmail because
• 17:40
  part of the original intention was that you would play your D&D
• 17:44
  characters until they got to the point where they were you know,
• 17:48
  high level. Or whatever and that they would
• 17:51
  reasonably be generals and then you would play chain mail with
• 17:54
  your D&D characters as like the Commander's.
• 17:57
  Yeah, that was part of the original plan, which makes a lot
• 18:00
  of sense. When you look at even D and D,
• 18:02
  now, people end up doing that in their games a lot of time by
• 18:05
  accident anyway. So like it checks out.
• 18:10
  About that was, that was out of thought I had.
• 18:13
  Hmm. Wow.
• 18:18
  My role has been thoroughly stopped.
• 18:22
  Well, this is up and roll. Wasn't even slowed just stopped?
• 18:26
  Yeah, no. I think the train just fucking
• 18:28
  halted. The other train still coming.
• 18:31
  I'm we're all gonna die, guys. Sorry.
• 18:37
  So anyway, I because we talked about, you know, how the history
• 18:42
  of wargaming affected, Gary gygax has, you know, decision
• 18:47
  making on creating the Indy. I'd like to talk about how these
• 18:53
  games have influence. Each other.
• 18:55
  We've already gotten a great point out of the way.
• 18:58
  Unfortunately, it was kind of One of the things I was going to
• 19:05
  talk about sort of kind of, because I was going to talk
• 19:06
  about how mechanically they've affected each other because, you
• 19:10
  know, we wouldn't have the whole dice roll situation.
• 19:15
  If we're gaming, did not decide things.
• 19:18
  Basically threw dice because you know what's what's better for
• 19:22
  random number generated than dice?
• 19:24
  Because if you say a computer, I will actually throw you out the
• 19:27
  window computer. Random number generators are not
• 19:31
  actually random. Usually based off of things like
• 19:36
  I'm stamps. yeah, that's a little fun fact, for all of you,
• 19:43
  that's why RNG manipulation is actually a thing in video games
• 19:46
  because it's based off of like random What's the word?
• 19:51
  Mm. Usually, based off of different
• 19:54
  variables that the game is keeping track of.
• 19:57
  But anyways. Yeah, so like mechanically, you
• 20:01
  know, they've affected each other with the original way that
• 20:06
  you know, we're gaming was played, but I feel also that
• 20:10
  they somewhat learned from each other because, you know, as lick
• 20:16
  the games have gotten Rest of the older, more additions have
• 20:21
  come out, more games have come out.
• 20:23
  We've also noticed an increase of basically text, so like, you
• 20:28
  know, before we may have had your wounds which is you know,
• 20:32
  you roll a DA you heal but now we have you know, range cast
• 20:38
  time how like all these other effects that spells can have you
• 20:42
  know I can't exactly remember a unit in we're Hammer that has
• 20:49
  Funky ass abilities. But I know there are a few that
• 20:51
  are like. Yeah, so this thing does this
• 20:53
  thing and if you have this person fielded this also does
• 20:56
  that, and it does this and decided.
• 20:59
  Yeah. Oh, fucking see.
• 21:03
  I don't play for the king of regularly.
• 21:04
  I've played a few games, but like I know Gilliam and does
• 21:09
  that Primark Gilliam and he's got like a few really
• 21:12
  interesting things that like it's like, oh if you have, I'm
• 21:17
  gonna get someone who Plays War Games is gonna fucking kill me
• 21:20
  for this. It's like if you have Gillen on
• 21:21
  the fields, he has like a special ability that gives all
• 21:24
  the ultramarines around him and like a certain distance like
• 21:29
  they had their gives them like more armor or they have like a
• 21:32
  maybe they're involved gets better.
• 21:34
  Don't hold on. I'm on the stat sheet right now
• 21:38
  master of battle or and 13th Primark or and he's a bunch of
• 21:44
  things. If your armor Army is Battle
• 21:46
  forged as well. Like, Lot of these oh, nobility
• 21:51
  made manifest. That's what it is.
• 21:53
  That's his warlord. Trait friendly ultramarines
• 21:55
  infantry units. And ultramarine biker units can
• 21:58
  perform our heroic intervention, as if they were characters,
• 22:00
  whilst they are in or within six inches of this world.
• 22:03
  Lord, that's for sure. - so like, yeah, so a lot of these
• 22:07
  things. Like a lot of this, this text
• 22:12
  has kind of basically involved with both sets of games.
• 22:15
  And I'm pretty sure that because, you know, one game is
• 22:18
  testing. Things out the other game goes,
• 22:19
  oh, we can do that now. I don't know, you know, the
• 22:23
  exact history between, you know, 40K and India affecting each
• 22:28
  other but I'm like, 90% certain that like a lot of the
• 22:32
  advancements in texts. Specifically, what was what,
• 22:37
  what did I have? Right down, right down.
• 22:40
  Right? And nickel.
• 22:40
  Advancements mechanical advancements, but I like the
• 22:45
  wording and clarifications so like, you know, having tags It's
• 22:48
  something that not game student usually have back then like
• 22:53
  ultramarines and then infiltrate those are cag's.
• 22:56
  Yeah we've entered a Kind of a Funny we're in like a funny time
• 23:01
  period because You know, everything sort of, well, okay,
• 23:09
  if you want to really go back, everything stole from like, you
• 23:13
  know, chess and go right. If you go all the way back to,
• 23:19
  like the earliest versions of table, table top games in the
• 23:24
  sense of games that are played on a table in the Vegas.
• 23:27
  Middle in the broadest, sense is the most literal sense.
• 23:30
  Yes, is a tabletop game in a very literal sense.
• 23:33
  Yes. But we've gotten to a Kind of a
• 23:35
  Funny spot where board games, War Games, tabletop games and
• 23:38
  video games, all just influence each other in a circle in a
• 23:45
  weird way. So like a video game will have
• 23:47
  an idea and then D and D will steal that video game idea.
• 23:49
  And then Warhammer lll, steal from d and d and then some board
• 23:52
  game will use it from war hammer or it'll go in the other
• 23:54
  direction or what? Like they all just is usually
• 23:57
  like. So like weird, Amy a great
• 24:01
  example is just 4X games in general.
• 24:04
  Stole for more gaming. Yeah, floor X Games, come from
• 24:06
  wargaming. And then for X Games, have some
• 24:08
  cool ideas and then wargaming takes the idea from the 4X game
• 24:12
  and like, you know, oh now lot of like there's I think there's
• 24:16
  more games and Deck Builder games, that use resource
• 24:19
  mechanics that are similar to Forex strategy games, they all
• 24:22
  just Chomp on each other and it kind of a funny way.
• 24:27
  We're back in the day you could have pointed be like, oh this
• 24:30
  this was taken from the right thing.
• 24:32
  But nowadays, it's It could come from anywhere because everybody
• 24:36
  just stealing from everybody else.
• 24:38
  Who's not me saying it's a bad thing.
• 24:40
  But you know this is a thing that happens at this point.
• 24:43
  I mean it's kind of hard to not do it honestly because basically
• 24:47
  if something works why try and change you, why trying to you
• 24:51
  know, walk around with that. That stuff is a I mean, don't
• 24:56
  don't just make the same fucking thing, you know, I don't know.
• 24:59
  We don't need the same game every single time.
• 25:02
  It don't copy paste looking at Ubisoft fucking formula and is
• 25:06
  piece off the open world game. My favorite we soft open world
• 25:10
  game with Tower to climb to discover area.
• 25:13
  Thank you very much loved that game is over game Ubisoft, the
• 25:16
  open world game. Um, really love it when other
• 25:19
  game companies go. Do you know what we could do
• 25:21
  that? If you do the entire and you
• 25:23
  just go, no, it's the same. Look, you haven't changed.
• 25:26
  Anything you climbed our or reached our you discover area.
• 25:29
  That's all it is, please stop. Yeah.
• 25:35
  Oh shit, I forgot. I was gonna say Bam.
• 25:42
  Something about video games. Now my train of thought, all
• 25:45
  right, video games are, part of the equation.
• 25:47
  Is something that I think often people kind of forget or don't
• 25:52
  think about as much own it, when you're talking about like
• 25:55
  tabletop stuff, there's a hits funny there's a lot of things
• 25:59
  I'll see in, even like 5e. I'll just look at me like I feel
• 26:05
  like I know where you got that mechanical idea.
• 26:07
  I could be wrong but it looks very similar.
• 26:09
  ER, to this one game that I played, and I don't know, it
• 26:13
  seems pretty suspect cycling. My kids call sauce.
• 26:20
  Imposter spotted? That's us.
• 26:24
  Hey, you guys want to play secret Hitler?
• 26:28
  No, I actually like that game is pretty fun.
• 26:30
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 26:31
  Secret what secret Hillary? Yeah, we're on Steam.
• 26:36
  It's a it's a it's another Lying Game in the vein of a bonus
• 26:40
  Salem. It's town of Salem.
• 26:42
  Yeah, but with like I just never heard of that game this.
• 26:45
  Yes, yes, it's a great. Healer 10 players is Hitler and
• 26:47
  you shoot. Him is the tabletop game.
• 26:52
  There's a horse for say, well, there's kind of a board actually
• 26:56
  Anyway, I relate it back to crampon, no, very, so not
• 27:02
  related played on table. Table table, table top.
• 27:11
  No, no tape. Yeah, that's that.
• 27:14
  What? See if you don't plan on the
• 27:15
  table top like you flip it over and you play it on the legs.
• 27:17
  That's a tip T RPG. But if a plan on the table top,
• 27:21
  it's a TT RPG. But if I remove the tabletop and
• 27:24
  replace it with a, you know, No, high-definition touchscreen.
• 27:28
  Well, then you're playing it on a screen.
• 27:30
  Laptop, screen screen, screen, top RPG.
• 27:35
  Look, look, I'm just saying. There was a, there was a, there
• 27:39
  is an actual play I watched. And they got one of those tables
• 27:42
  that has the TV built into the center.
• 27:45
  That's a touchscreen and they played on roll20 that way.
• 27:48
  And it's pretty fun. Isaac.
• 27:49
  I'm not gonna lie, I literally have talked about, if, you know
• 27:55
  ever Move back to the east coast.
• 27:56
  That's kind of what I would want to do if we're going to play in
• 27:58
  person, right. It's so cool.
• 28:00
  Like actually she's so cute. It's just because it's easier to
• 28:04
  manage than some awful. Bullshit.
• 28:10
  All is still limited by roll20 and when I played when I God,
• 28:17
  yeah, when I played in that campaign when I was at Mercy,
• 28:20
  Josh, Matthew member, that is what we would take up that back
• 28:24
  room in Hazard. Our building.
• 28:26
  What we do is we had a projector we would project the battle maps
• 28:30
  onto the Whiteboard and we would draw and be could like plan out
• 28:34
  complex strategies on the Whiteboard with each other you
• 28:37
  to third. So it's like, oh we're I'll take
• 28:39
  the Dodge action and run in. So they'll like I have the most
• 28:42
  help so they'll eat a bunch of damage here and then you guys
• 28:44
  can flank around here. We actually that is kind of
• 28:47
  working. Yeah, being like, we're gonna
• 28:51
  we're gonna get this. Don't you fucking worry.
• 28:56
  Yeah, yeah yeah that's that's I guess that's another way that
• 29:03
  we've influenced DND with. We're naming is you know a lot
• 29:11
  of our planning ends up being like looking like a word game?
• 29:14
  Yeah well I've been in a specific way if you're very
• 29:16
  tactical player in combat. Yeah.
• 29:21
  Yeah, he can be grouped, like, oh, we like that one fucking
• 29:25
  encounter. We had in her sundae campaign,
• 29:26
  where we spend about 30 minutes, just planning out our first
• 29:29
  turn. Yeah, Jesus.
• 29:33
  Well, because we have a lot of like, placeable are ways that we
• 29:36
  could just put down some things wouldn't be able to fire at us
• 29:39
  with arrows sir, and it worked Edward.
• 29:43
  We're like a charm. Do you know that?
• 29:47
  That's another thing. Definitely influenced our way of
• 29:51
  playing tabletop RPGs you top-10.
• 29:56
  I wonder if there I'm not even 100% as I'm thinking about this.
• 30:01
  I did not even understand how this will work.
• 30:03
  But wonder if there is a war game that essentially uses like
• 30:10
  pseudo fictional positioning, I doubt would be so fucking
• 30:14
  different. Don't keep track well like yeah,
• 30:16
  that would be like what I say pseudo it would be sort of Like,
• 30:21
  zoning the y-axis. No, no.
• 30:23
  I'm so like, so like the Star Wars game Kinda.
• 30:26
  Yeah. That has to exist, right?
• 30:28
  It's like rather because I know because I know Warhammer, we're
• 30:31
  Hammer is very specific on the measurements.
• 30:33
  Like this unit can move five inches or whatever the fuck,
• 30:36
  right? So there has to be one.
• 30:38
  That's a little more like, sort of bubble Zone base type like
• 30:43
  tactic, right there has to be a thing.
• 30:46
  I'm not crazy, right? Someone actually tried that?
• 30:48
  No, I could see that. I don't know what that Would
• 30:50
  look like but that much are. You could see it.
• 30:53
  Like what? I now look at the.
• 30:58
  Yeah. Like I said as I'm talking about
• 31:00
  it, I'm like I don't know what that would look like but it
• 31:02
  seems like a cool idea. I'm trying.
• 31:04
  Yeah, I'm trying to get an idea of what that would even look
• 31:07
  like because you know when I think of or games I literally
• 31:11
  think of like a crafted fields. Yeah.
• 31:16
  So you know, okay, know how they would do that.
• 31:18
  They would have to do it, like, range zones.
• 31:20
  Where every character, I like that.
• 31:23
  Yeah, sones. Like how many, how many zones
• 31:28
  away from yourself? Can you fire or something?
• 31:30
  Oh, hold on. So there's a hex based one
• 31:33
  called Combat Commander Europe, which is not like he doesn't
• 31:38
  have. Yeah, hexes, I know actually,
• 31:40
  heck space speaking of X base war game and yeah, you know,
• 31:43
  play heroscape. Hold on, hold on.
• 31:48
  I think I know I'm talking about.
• 31:49
  Let me, let me show you a picture.
• 31:50
  I still have a bunch of my all my heroscape shit.
• 31:52
  That was basically. Yes.
• 31:54
  Ha playing this. Yeah, it's pretty sick,
• 31:57
  actually. Yeah, I remember my brother.
• 32:00
  I played like a few times, my older brothers, and I sort of
• 32:06
  got how to play. When, you know you're fucking
• 32:08
  night. You never really understand.
• 32:09
  It was pretty. Yeah.
• 32:10
  It was pretty complicated. Trying to play wrist when I was
• 32:12
  nine everybody like um, we should I do.
• 32:15
  I play this game at some point. I do have it.
• 32:19
  I'd be so down to play or they have two folding tables for
• 32:21
  this. And this picture that I'm yeah,
• 32:23
  I'm looking at the same picture. We have a lot of the terrain and
• 32:28
  stuff too because you would judge your own terrain and ship.
• 32:30
  No. Well that's like a 12-hour
• 32:38
  Venture really was. It was lot but you know it's
• 32:41
  funny though so it was long in terms of like compared to board
• 32:45
  games, right? But it was cool because it was
• 32:47
  essentially distilling war hammer down to like all right,
• 32:52
  what if you take a lot of the expensiveness out of Warhammer
• 32:55
  and you don't have to have your own Army?
• 32:57
  It's just you have the the person who has the game, has a
• 33:00
  bunch of units that come with it and it was like, sort of
• 33:03
  Shrinking in some of the cause war hammer has a really high by
• 33:06
  in both monetarily and TimeWise and shit.
• 33:08
  Like that, sort of shrinking that down and focusing it in
• 33:12
  which was an interesting idea. And I think, if I remember
• 33:14
  correctly, Isaiah, Warhammer basically made their own version
• 33:18
  of that idea, anyway, right where they have like it with ya
• 33:23
  kill team. Yeah, so it was it was cool for
• 33:26
  that reason. It's that kind of zoned in like
• 33:30
  it's still a Time investment to play.
• 33:32
  Say you're well, it's not that. There's less, there's lesson
• 33:36
  meta, time wasn't just less investment, less out of game,
• 33:39
  investment more focused on the in-game investment.
• 33:43
  Well, the out of game investment is like, it's just, the thing,
• 33:46
  set up the map. Yeah, that's it.
• 33:50
  All right. I mean yeah, we play that but
• 33:52
  anyway, Like, look, I like board games genuinely, I will just
• 33:58
  play board games. Hey, you could just be like, hey
• 34:01
  we're going to play this board game like okay, and I'll sit
• 34:03
  down and learn the rules for about two hours.
• 34:05
  All right, after after some light Googling, you talking
• 34:09
  about a barrier of Entry as 2000 Point, non horde Army should run
• 34:15
  you about 800 bucks. China would be good.
• 34:22
  Probably bump that up to like a G-Body.
• 34:25
  With a horde Army. So like tyranids Imperial grill
• 34:30
  guard that were works or it can be expensive.
• 34:35
  That's a bit much. It's been much.
• 34:36
  I'm gonna be here sitting going man.
• 34:40
  I like playing hard armies. Hey Same for me, like skaven are
• 34:46
  my butt thing if I what if? Well, eventually, I want to play
• 34:50
  fucking any of them. But, you know, skaven of the
• 34:54
  army that I've been its rates. We had, are we looking towards
• 34:57
  man's arrest? Now just look it up, fucking
• 35:03
  were hammered daily data sheets, and it's looking all the wild
• 35:08
  shit that they can get like your brain.
• 35:10
  My girl, you've rain leader of the Inari, Isaiah, this isn't
• 35:15
  we're not just here to talk about work, I don't know.
• 35:20
  But okay. Another objective here in Sam.
• 35:25
  Sam, I get him on a path taken away.
• 35:28
  But wait, hold on. I'm looking to points for rats.
• 35:51
  I started Playing the total war game again because I have a
• 35:54
  problem. Oh God totally.
• 35:57
  I put a lot of hours into those games.
• 36:02
  And yeah, I don't know. I just like we're humor.
• 36:07
  Sola know if I like fantasy or 40K more.
• 36:10
  I think it really just comes down to one has escaped.
• 36:13
  And what doesn't? That's a very good point what
• 36:16
  happened? So, anyways, technically 40K
• 36:20
  does have skaven, I can't what they're, what they're called,
• 36:23
  but they are, they're feeling for me, it's not the same, not,
• 36:26
  you know, exactly. There you got any field of army.
• 36:29
  Now, I ended my best Army in the game.
• 36:32
  I, you know, I I'd I do hold a sense of pride in that way.
• 36:38
  People who have you heard about? They're really dumb fucking
• 36:41
  ability that like yeah. So plus the legibility
• 36:44
  basically. Yeah.
• 36:45
  So as you guys who like have a very basic understanding of like
• 36:50
  Vermont, I know, is that the dwarves, anything any slight is
• 36:53
  called a grudge and they put it in a book of grudges, it's like
• 36:56
  now that's a grows and yeah, it's like that's going in the
• 36:59
  fucking book. That's it.
• 37:01
  That's the grudge for the book, you fuck.
• 37:04
  So the league of vote on Army. Our main thing is a grudge so
• 37:10
  and you can like basically every time that it you you put a
• 37:14
  grudge on a unit enemies have like a plus to hit them.
• 37:19
  I think it Stacks up to like three times at the moment cut
• 37:22
  Tim and it like you can get a grudge for anything, you shoot
• 37:27
  at the enemy, that's a grudge. If you deal, I think a mortal
• 37:31
  wound that's a grudge. If you fire OverWatch, that's a
• 37:35
  grudge and it just You every everything gets grudged and then
• 37:41
  they get steamrolled, it's amazing.
• 37:45
  That and the, the, the big meme at the moment beside that is the
• 37:48
  towel rail gun. That basic any, any bigger, Tau
• 37:52
  Mech can use like the riptide and it can just want a shot,
• 37:55
  anything in the game practically that isn't like a night.
• 37:59
  It can One-Shot pry marks. Just you don't like it because
• 38:02
  it ignores. So, whenever you just have this
• 38:04
  thing called an invulnerability, save stronger units, have this
• 38:08
  thing where if you do damage to them and you kill them, they can
• 38:11
  make a role to see if they just don't die.
• 38:13
  They just, you're just like, no fuck you.
• 38:14
  I don't do it. Tell railgun can ignore invovled
• 38:17
  saves. So all of your special boys are
• 38:20
  just not special no more and they take like 13 damage which
• 38:23
  is a lot of damage that's like a Luda level of damage.
• 38:30
  So Gilman one shot, Magnus. The red one shot more Terrian
• 38:33
  get end up in just fucked, they just fucked.
• 38:37
  Sure me and Mac pretend like we know who you're talking about
• 38:41
  more terrain is the the Primark of the death Gardener to big
• 38:44
  stinky Mothman, you're talking about him.
• 38:45
  Jumbo plain dark tide. It wasn't an invitation for an
• 38:49
  explanation. That's a shame Sam please.
• 38:54
  Please move aside. No, no, this is.
• 38:57
  This is one brand. This is one brand for entire
• 38:59
  conversation. So I okay.
• 39:03
  All right, you're not going to like my moving on, so clean
• 39:05
  rats, a single unit of Klein rats is 20 and that's 100
• 39:09
  points. So if you want field, you would
• 39:15
  need about 400 Clan rats. For 2000, Point Army.
• 39:19
  Yep. That's a lot of claim rats.
• 39:23
  Yeah, Jesus. Also, I like the the age of
• 39:31
  Sigmar board game rules. Wikipedia is called.
• 39:34
  Wow pedia. Yeah.
• 39:38
  Just so it's just a little fun fact for you.
• 39:40
  Did I ever tell you? Okay, so this is, this is, this
• 39:42
  is a weird, this is a word. Anything that's sort of a
• 39:44
  general one. Like this is like a weird.
• 39:46
  Why would you do this that? I tell you guys about, i-i'm,
• 39:49
  pretty sure I'm remembering this correctly.
• 39:51
  How the original age of Sigmar initiative round worked?
• 39:56
  No. So okay, usually you play a war
• 39:59
  game, right? Like you maybe roll a die and
• 40:01
  whoever has the higher number gets their turn, right?
• 40:04
  Yep. Yeah, cool.
• 40:05
  If there's no, that's not what they did.
• 40:06
  Yeah. So, you know, so the way that
• 40:09
  only every other game Morgan goes, it's your turn and you
• 40:11
  have your turn phases and then your turn ends, and then my
• 40:13
  turn. And then, you know, that's in,
• 40:14
  it's like turn one. Turn two, Turn 3, turn 4.
• 40:17
  Right. When we both go, that's a full
• 40:18
  turn age of Sigmar. That's not how it works.
• 40:22
  You want to guess how it works? Is this some fat Co bullshit,
• 40:26
  but with initial, no, no, basically, it's so my turn goes
• 40:32
  right. So Josh, you were playing are
• 40:33
  playing a customer. We roll it off, my turn goes.
• 40:37
  Okay, we go, you know I do my turn now.
• 40:40
  It's not your turn. We Roll again.
• 40:43
  Oh oh, so you lost. So cool.
• 40:45
  So now it's my turn to your turn.
• 40:48
  Zero, We Roll again. Okay, it's your turn.
• 40:50
  Okay, cool. Oh, so you fell down, but it's
• 40:52
  my turn. So now it's my turn three.
• 40:53
  Your turn one. Well, that's not okay.
• 40:56
  No, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
• 40:59
  I got my bro. No, they also, they removed
• 41:04
  point cap on first edition agency.
• 41:06
  Mark why? I don't know.
• 41:10
  It's age of cigars initial release as someone who doesn't
• 41:13
  play, you know, Heroes and did not play Fantasy hearing the
• 41:19
  internet explode. When äôs first edition dropped
• 41:22
  was some of the funniest shit. Because you just read the you
• 41:25
  like heard about the rules and you're like, no, no surely not.
• 41:29
  And then, like, use aren't you see one take and you're like
• 41:32
  this, they must have misread this and then 50 other people
• 41:35
  say it the same way and you're like, okay, either that's kind
• 41:37
  of. These rules are not clear or
• 41:40
  this is wacky. And people would just show up
• 41:43
  and flood the feel to it. Would fucking.
• 41:44
  You're like you brought like a 100-point army.
• 41:47
  Someone drops a 4,000-foot army, that's the match.
• 41:50
  Good luck. Hope you're all real.
• 41:52
  Well, She's why most not well enough?
• 41:56
  No, this is an excellent lesson in how to not do initiative in
• 42:00
  your game. If you're thinking about
• 42:01
  changing the way initiative works in your game, don't you
• 42:04
  know that one, that ain't it, it's don't do it, don't do it.
• 42:07
  I mean, you can change it but not that way.
• 42:12
  What. Yeah, I mean that's a lot of
• 42:14
  rolling for no reason to like that's just take a guy's a liar
• 42:17
  for. Yeah.
• 42:17
  That's like that's like excessively amount of wasted
• 42:21
  rolling time. But look, imagine you're playing
• 42:24
  a card game because this is essentially, the equivalent.
• 42:27
  You're playing a card game like magic, or you go and every
• 42:30
  single time it's time for someone to take their turn.
• 42:34
  You roll a die and decide that way or coin toss or Rock.
• 42:39
  Rock paper scissors. Like that is busy.
• 42:41
  Yeah. I do that.
• 42:44
  I was not. That's really mean.
• 42:49
  I would love to sit down with the designers and be like, what
• 42:53
  were you hoping you think, is not know, not, what were you
• 42:57
  thinking? What was the intended because
• 43:01
  you know, when you design a mechanic in a game right?
• 43:03
  You have an intended result. You're going for like an
• 43:06
  intended feeling, right? So for example, you know,
• 43:10
  Shadowrun has your re-roll initiative, every round to sort
• 43:13
  of You know, imply the chaos of the fight, right?
• 43:17
  That's sort of the intention. Does it work Up For Debate?
• 43:19
  But that's the point. What was the intention with that
• 43:22
  logic in nature Sigmar? That's what I wanted.
• 43:25
  Just like, I don't know. Like, I'm pretty sure there's no
• 43:27
  like there's they have no initiative modifiers because
• 43:29
  that's a turn. That would be really like be
• 43:31
  basically, people would just play that armies.
• 43:34
  That would have the best bonus to go.
• 43:37
  First, essentially, I just I just yeah I can't think of the
• 43:45
  the idea I like for a working, which is this making any sense?
• 43:52
  Yeah. My anyway I think they also I do
• 43:57
  the the character the Space Ranger fantasy.
• 43:59
  Their host on casters are knows I think they just couldn't die
• 44:02
  and then they could just like they had the resurrection
• 44:05
  protocol that necrons head I Think Jesus Christ.
• 44:12
  Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they did.
• 44:16
  Isaiah the guy who's never played this game.
• 44:18
  As I know, these are totally rules you 100/100.
• 44:22
  My opinion is fact. Yeah I mean it's not an opinion.
• 44:25
  It's a my potential remembering of the rules which statement is
• 44:30
  fact how much better I'm looking at it now.
• 44:37
  Eternals. Why are the Orcs the best 40K
• 44:44
  Army to play as down or not? But they should be yd Orcs.
• 44:50
  They're all right. Um, You just have fun when you
• 44:53
  play it works as soon as yeah. You can't be a salty or player
• 44:59
  like you can't be a toxic player.
• 45:01
  It does doesn't really exist because Orcs are so trash at
• 45:06
  that ranged combat. Like, you know, most most
• 45:08
  enemies is like, oh you have to like If you roll like a for up,
• 45:13
  right? So if you roll like a 345 you
• 45:17
  hit are you what you're like a to up?
• 45:19
  Sorry, you like me to make the shot whatever Orcs role on a
• 45:22
  they hit on a forum or is it a five up?
• 45:27
  Basically they have like you either you hit.
• 45:29
  Are you miss the healing? The shittier hit it hit
• 45:31
  percentage. So yeah, you are, you either are
• 45:34
  going to roll, like a god, some games, and you're just gonna
• 45:37
  light motherfuckers up, or you are going to miss The side of
• 45:41
  the barn and the farm, and the county that the farm is on.
• 45:45
  You're not going to prison. You just firing into the air.
• 45:47
  Yeah, but when Orcs get into melee It gets a little wild like
• 45:53
  the the two or three games. I played, I played against oryx
• 45:56
  those playing ultramarines because the only Army, my friend
• 45:58
  dad and I had had, I had like a squad of initiate initiate
• 46:04
  snipers in like, a little base area that had in the back of my
• 46:06
  area and I could just lay down a hell on the fucking Orcs from
• 46:11
  range. And when I could hit them with
• 46:13
  over watched from like this little vantage point I had, as
• 46:16
  they were coming in and they charged and they fucking stormed
• 46:20
  My Little Pill Box. They destroyed me.
• 46:23
  They just drowned me in a hits and I was like, I can't, what do
• 46:27
  I do? And he was, like, died and I
• 46:29
  went, oh, okay. I I could be salty about this
• 46:36
  but I'm not. This is actually pretty funny
• 46:41
  the wild. Yeah, it there.
• 46:43
  That is an ability they have, it's literally called wha And
• 46:48
  the friend I had. You better believe?
• 46:51
  He screamed it every single time.
• 46:53
  Yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, you gonna
• 46:56
  yeah. Yeah.
• 46:56
  He's popping his wife. Okay.
• 46:58
  Okay. So that that ability for storm
• 47:03
  cast internals is called the reforging instead of being
• 47:08
  removed the unit from your order of battle.
• 47:11
  You can say that it would they will be reforged instead if you
• 47:13
  do so that unit loses D3 Renown points, That.
• 47:18
  Yeah. So it's basically they just they
• 47:19
  just lose renowned as a hero. That's it.
• 47:21
  But just get back up. Oh yeah.
• 47:26
  Oh, I see interesting wild. Yeah, I'll just name.
• 47:38
  Yeah, that's that's a, that's a, that's pretty ridiculous.
• 47:42
  Well, yeah II, sorry. I after reading all that, I'm
• 47:45
  still really just confused about the whole initiative thing.
• 47:50
  You know, they really said, listen, we have we have this
• 47:53
  initiative thing in other games, you know, we kind of just
• 47:56
  perfected it for a two-player game, you know, whoever you
• 48:00
  know, rolls better goes first in the turn order.
• 48:04
  Let's let's let's get rid of that.
• 48:08
  I will speak much work to make it really Lang really ran.
• 48:13
  Like if it was hired one goes player to goes, then you re role
• 48:18
  that would make more set at slightly better.
• 48:20
  Then Player 1 roles he goes first player.
• 48:23
  One rolls better, he goes first and then you just haven't like
• 48:27
  basically just a chain of Player 1 going and they don't even have
• 48:30
  like a thing where it's like, oh player 2 will go eventually.
• 48:33
  It's just whoever rolls better. That's insane.
• 48:38
  Glad glad they they looked at you know, other games and said
• 48:41
  you know what, we're going back to that old you know what?
• 48:46
  Never mind. This seems a little you know,
• 48:50
  Silly. Yeah.
• 48:54
  I okay. This is kind of, this is kind of
• 48:59
  a random question and I knew this would be that this is the
• 49:03
  divisive one because, you know, only I guess half of us have
• 49:07
  actually played like an actual war game that like in the the
• 49:12
  realm of 40K, you know, heroscape I guess we can include
• 49:15
  in that but I can't heroscape because there's that there is
• 49:18
  from what I remember but way back to the way back to the way
• 49:21
  way back there was like a pretty decent level of like strategy
• 49:24
  you had to make so it's pretty complex.
• 49:26
  Yes, but also Little long as time goes yeah, I can account
• 49:30
  opinions Maybe. Somewhere out there, actually a
• 49:36
  great boat real quick. This is a quick survey.
• 49:38
  I'm sorry, I know you want to change are two kinds of risk.
• 49:41
  When I was in high school and I was a sophomore in high school
• 49:45
  which was about 10 years ago actually.
• 49:50
  Now that I think about it. There was this this period of
• 49:53
  time where me in three or four other people played Risk, All
• 50:00
  day every day. For like he's asked, run
• 50:03
  straight. Straight of a month.
• 50:06
  Are like it if we weren't playing, I would be at a
• 50:08
  friend's house watching him play in helping him strategize and it
• 50:12
  just, it, it was ridiculous. It like we wait so hard being
• 50:19
  like, okay, so they've moved into this area.
• 50:21
  So but if we can maintain this week and we can ignore this
• 50:23
  other part right here, but we know that our other friends
• 50:26
  coming in from the other side because they've got more
• 50:28
  territory than we do. is this like, I don't know if the summer
• 50:30
  thing you would do partially How do you play?
• 50:35
  How did you play when you were in school?
• 50:37
  You'd like, you just didn't do homework, you just went home and
• 50:39
  played Risk until like midnight. And then you went home, went to
• 50:42
  bed, went to school, went, and played more risk.
• 50:45
  Monkey be anxious Animal House. We also had one game of Monopoly
• 50:48
  that went for a week, straight same idea.
• 50:50
  Monopolies, not even a good game.
• 50:52
  Get the fuck out of here incorrect, but okay.
• 50:58
  Bro, I have a deep hatred of Monopoly.
• 51:01
  What a deeply hate Monopoly pain.
• 51:05
  I get bored. I think we've got our yeah, and
• 51:08
  we mentioned this before though. Why?
• 51:10
  Why? Why we don't have enough time to
• 51:13
  go into it right now that tight? Okay, so I'll just, I'll just
• 51:16
  simplify it really quickly. Every single game of Monopoly
• 51:19
  ends the same exact way. Not what I was going to say but
• 51:22
  that's another reason. Yeah, it always funnels into
• 51:25
  basically the same game and it's usually just between two people.
• 51:28
  Love. Them sitting there for hours the
• 51:31
  very pointy. It's a poorly designed game.
• 51:34
  It's a poorly designed. And game is really what it is.
• 51:37
  Like, the mid-game is okay, the beginning of the game is
• 51:42
  probably the best part. But after you hit like late
• 51:48
  mid-game, it just it starts falling apart because it's a,
• 51:52
  you know, there's no good way to end of that game.
• 51:55
  Unless everybody's cooperating, we're not talking about
• 52:00
  Monopoly, Sam. I do it out of the pit.
• 52:03
  You could do this, I believe in you.
• 52:05
  I my usual idea. Is we play long enough till
• 52:09
  someone doesn't want to play anymore?
• 52:10
  And I go hey I'll buy your territory if you want to quit
• 52:12
  and they usually let me have it and that I have most of the map
• 52:16
  and I guess that's that's that's what I mean.
• 52:18
  But it's not what we call. Good game design, sir.
• 52:20
  No, it is not, well, it's the opposite other way.
• 52:24
  So we've talked about influences and let's talk about what we
• 52:30
  wish would be. Just because, you know, we've
• 52:35
  seen definitely some some combat influence because listen, if we
• 52:41
  if we didn't have Gary gygax planes more games, we've Harry.
• 52:45
  Wasn't a World War Two nerd. Yeah.
• 52:48
  Like or chain mail? Merge.
• 52:50
  If you want to go that far. I think he was history.
• 52:53
  I remember, I mean, it's also possible other.
• 52:55
  I feel like, you know, we probably wouldn't be here
• 52:59
  talking about rolling dice. We might be talking about, Ben
• 53:02
  coins. Oh God D actually fun fact.
• 53:05
  You know what they did before they had before they have the to
• 53:07
  the D20. At this time they flip coins.
• 53:11
  Put please it did not flip coins.
• 53:13
  It had little cardboard like discs with numbers on them and
• 53:19
  they threw them in a sack and pulled a number out of the bag.
• 53:23
  I remember reading that in that fucking Matt.
• 53:26
  Yeah. So Matt he's bringing up that
• 53:28
  like history. Like the art Arcana thing.
• 53:30
  Us. Yeah.
• 53:31
  That book is fucking massive did.
• 53:33
  Yeah. So yes it's such a good book.
• 53:35
  It's like 13 inches long by a season 3 inches wide.
• 53:40
  Like nine inches that are trying to 9 inches wide by like 3
• 53:43
  inches thick. It's huge, huh?
• 53:47
  Fucking massive and it's got like diagrams and these like
• 53:50
  fucking centerfold posters and shit's crazy.
• 53:53
  It's a deep dive. I've literally, I've never
• 53:56
  finished reading it. I got like three quarters.
• 53:57
  The way I went. I've just suddenly nobody has no
• 54:01
  i-i've. Like I've never read it like
• 54:03
  cover to cover, but I've always scammed stop.
• 54:05
  I'll read a good chunk every time I pick up the book it's
• 54:08
  just so cool. Probably no one has finished it,
• 54:11
  but yeah, they used to pull like cardboard coin thingies.
• 54:17
  Of a bag, which I don't know. That might I don't know.
• 54:23
  That could be potentially more random than a D20.
• 54:27
  Maybe I kind of is, right. It's an interesting thought.
• 54:31
  I don't know. Like, I mean, there's no weight
• 54:36
  behind it. Yeah, it's a weight table and
• 54:39
  yeah like it literally just depends on the person grabbing
• 54:43
  it. Grab it, you know, shake it up,
• 54:44
  grab it again. Like, I don't know.
• 54:45
  There's an it's and you like, think about that.
• 54:48
  Like once a number is pulled is the number out of the bag
• 54:50
  permanently or you have no, you put it back in because it's a
• 54:53
  D20, it represents the D20 test, right?
• 54:55
  So you can there is a way to like a game that yeah, mark one
• 55:01
  of the tokens. So you could still feel around.
• 55:14
  Yeah. The only way that you could get
• 55:18
  around a, with that, is be like, look, the first coin you
• 55:22
  touched. That's the coin.
• 55:23
  You take like, you don't like you literally.
• 55:26
  Just go and grab one. That's it.
• 55:29
  Well, at that time for it. That's kind of hard to unless
• 55:33
  you're like, okay, You have you have three seconds to pull one?
• 55:36
  Right? Like you could you could
• 55:38
  potentially get some we're doing that but I could I could see
• 55:41
  someone just like you know every time they pull something above
• 55:45
  15, you mark one side and if every time you pull something
• 55:49
  below, 1/8, you mark, two sides so you can immediately go know
• 55:52
  you. You know, you can suck my cock a
• 55:55
  kurumi level shit. Yeah.
• 55:57
  I guess you could. Yeah, it's I just, I don't know.
• 55:59
  I thought since I don't know why they did that because Keeper the
• 56:03
  Deep 20 existed as far as I'm aware.
• 56:06
  Like, it's not like D&D invented, so I don't know.
• 56:10
  But interesting idea. Interesting, two things are
• 56:14
  research, but Dammit, the sentence, lost me again.
• 56:24
  Horny system is a role-playing game system published in 2000.
• 56:29
  I was just the coast. I'll say it is with developer
• 56:32
  Third Edition of them. The dragon, the oldest, the old
• 56:38
  editions of the game used the D20.
• 56:40
  The D20 zoo is a specific thing. It's not, it's nice.
• 56:49
  Remember them being, like, ticklers thing is just very
• 56:52
  funny. The D20 system was essentially
• 56:55
  its own RPG system, that got like OG L that's why there's
• 56:59
  Star Wars D20. That's why that exists.
• 57:02
  Yeah, I don't know why I fucking reacting like that because I
• 57:05
  remembered them it, like, in advanced, you could do like the
• 57:09
  mail-order things to get your special D and D Dice.
• 57:12
  And they were these awful fucking cast a molded dice.
• 57:16
  That looked like they just look like Like shit.
• 57:20
  They were so bad looking and apparently the ink like a little
• 57:25
  paint in the numbers. Wasn't it didn't come that way.
• 57:28
  You had to do that weight, which is why all to me.
• 57:32
  Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah, it was.
• 57:34
  So apparently, the earliest D20 was invented in the 1960s, by
• 57:38
  the Japanese standards Association.
• 57:41
  Mmm. Yeah.
• 57:42
  So there's some threes is red, yellow, blue, and number zero to
• 57:47
  nine twice on each die. Oh, oh, I don't like that.
• 57:53
  Maybe they just I don't know. Maybe it.
• 57:54
  Maybe Gary didn't know about those.
• 57:58
  Possibly. Currently the earliest known
• 58:01
  dice goes back to Turkey. Yeah, classic D6.
• 58:06
  I'm sure his fucking ancient the actual D20.
• 58:10
  I think we have evidence of that being around in like the early
• 58:16
  centuries of the like you know, ad in India.
• 58:24
  Ryan says, it was invented. Japan 6 was pre 5000 BC is
• 58:30
  knuckleball. I don't know why I didn't think
• 58:32
  about knucklebones. Yeah, I was like not earlier was
• 58:36
  like yeah, knucklebones stops thinking.
• 58:40
  Oh here we go. Oh yeah.
• 58:41
  Here's the original D and D dice.
• 58:44
  You can actually see them, people like painted in.
• 58:48
  Those are ugly as hell. Yeah.
• 58:50
  Do you see them? They literally painted in with
• 58:51
  an ink. Wash the numbers.
• 58:54
  Okay. So I'm looking I'm really not
• 58:56
  surprised by this Egyptians and Romans were the first recorded
• 58:59
  people to make exactly? Yeah.
• 59:02
  Well, because it's a, what is it?
• 59:03
  A twenties, a dodecahedron, right?
• 59:08
  Fuck if I do you 20. My name.
• 59:19
  Give y'all a history lesson and said about instead of talking
• 59:21
  about my topics. It's fine.
• 59:23
  I like history, it's called an icosahedron ikos and Jesus.
• 59:27
  All right, oh no, I dodecahedron to D12.
• 59:33
  I'm an idiot. Just it's 2 plus 10.
• 59:37
  Yeah, yeah, goddamn math. Rocks, sedge asked rocks.
• 59:43
  Go click clack. Did you have anything else?
• 59:46
  You were, you want you wanted to talk about Sam?
• 59:48
  Yeah, of course. So like as I was leading us
• 59:53
  into, you know, they've built in like tabletop RPGs and we're
• 1:00:00
  names, have influenced each other a lot.
• 1:00:04
  There's I'm very distinct differences between them.
• 1:00:07
  Like, obviously role-playing is, is a very, very distinct
• 1:00:10
  difference between, you know, or game and the tabletop RPG except
• 1:00:15
  you can kind of argue that the way that you play your armies in
• 1:00:19
  a tabletop game is based off of the characteristics of the
• 1:00:22
  faction that you're playing, which is technically are peeing
• 1:00:25
  because like you know, you wouldn't play most towel like
• 1:00:30
  you're going to go into melee combat because there's just kind
• 1:00:33
  of bad at that. Well you would also use You're
• 1:00:37
  sort of role playing a commander, right?
• 1:00:39
  So you can you can drive if you wanted you could kind of get
• 1:00:42
  into that role play by to of like the boss of the army.
• 1:00:48
  Yeah the difference is the objective quote-unquote?
• 1:00:51
  Yeah it's not and wargaming, you're just fucking around.
• 1:00:56
  You're not, you're not playing the game to roleplay.
• 1:00:58
  Yeah. Andy.
• 1:00:59
  Andy, you have some sort of purpose to your character.
• 1:01:02
  Yeah, I know. Pathfinder recently.
• 1:01:04
  They just updated their King maker and pain is basically, you
• 1:01:09
  know, and they have a five-year companion.
• 1:01:11
  Look at 3:45. That's a, that's like a 4X game
• 1:01:13
  though, Matt. It's not know.
• 1:01:15
  I know but not exactly this. No, no.
• 1:01:17
  There's a, there's a phrase 4X game.
• 1:01:19
  I don't actually know what they're exhale, we will get to
• 1:01:23
  that. But what what?
• 1:01:25
  Matt I think Matt's. Talking about the, the adventure
• 1:01:27
  path, not the video game because they made an adventure past.
• 1:01:30
  I don't know. I'm awareness a master Baker,
• 1:01:33
  I'm saying that those games are you manage a company, a company,
• 1:01:39
  a kingdom. Yes so it's it's kind of like a
• 1:01:45
  4X game. You're just controlling the unit
• 1:01:47
  of characters that go around doing I thought it was like,
• 1:01:50
  split operation and extermination part.
• 1:01:52
  I thought that was also building up a kingdom part of it.
• 1:01:55
  Well, there is What's am saying is you don't actively
• 1:01:58
  participate in the war component, so much as you just
• 1:02:00
  manage, yeah, which is like a 4X game.
• 1:02:04
  So a 4X game for X literally stands for for like, it used to
• 1:02:08
  be called XXXX game, then they were like, oh, XXX is
• 1:02:12
  pornography, so we're going to change it is. 4X expand,
• 1:02:17
  exterminate explore, explore exploit.
• 1:02:22
  The basically strategy games where you manage a country.
• 1:02:26
  Kingdom, whatever. And you gather resources, create
• 1:02:29
  an army, kill other things, and expand your territory
• 1:02:33
  civilization, civilization, full bore.
• 1:02:37
  And the space doors. A little bit different because
• 1:02:41
  of the combination of or x + or game natural.
• 1:02:46
  Just because what's that? What's that a solar Empire?
• 1:02:51
  No was still ours. It's a loris.
• 1:02:55
  Rex game civilizations, the one. Yeah, but civilization in
• 1:03:01
  comparison to some other four X Games is space baby shit because
• 1:03:06
  some 4X games get basic thing absurd with their loved ones
• 1:03:10
  like hail. So it's like stars allows you to
• 1:03:13
  change out the like the way that your ships are built.
• 1:03:18
  You give them specific. Platings, you give them specific
• 1:03:21
  weapon. The most girls is so, so
• 1:03:22
  complicated. Yeah.
• 1:03:24
  Some of them are, just not really worth learning.
• 1:03:28
  And because of the MBA lot, I am investment, it's just crazy.
• 1:03:31
  Like I've been asked to play like still ours for instance.
• 1:03:35
  And I'm like that's a, that's a, that's a big time.
• 1:03:37
  It's like a Life Investment. It's your fucking part time job.
• 1:03:41
  It's I'm like I already play Total War.
• 1:03:43
  I don't need another half. Some of them get like Just so
• 1:03:48
  needlessly complicate I just it's not my genre.
• 1:03:52
  Let's put it that way. Yeah I do like a level of
• 1:03:56
  complexity to my games but that's it's a lot.
• 1:03:59
  It depends on which we play. They're not all like that, but
• 1:04:02
  sometimes you'll just be like, look it up online but like, no
• 1:04:10
  Eva spreadsheet simulator. There's a whole other.
• 1:04:12
  Yeah, Eve is what I fish. That's awful.
• 1:04:15
  I, the difficulty is getting into it.
• 1:04:18
  Yeah, I tried. Yeah, that's the thing.
• 1:04:20
  If I really want you to have to probably get into Eve, take out
• 1:04:25
  a loan and get a part-time job and Eve.
• 1:04:27
  That's, that's the motivation, the factors that I just don't
• 1:04:31
  have four. I don't understand how any I
• 1:04:35
  just out how. Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:04:39
  Anyway, we're getting a lot into the video game influence of
• 1:04:44
  board games and vice versa today.
• 1:04:46
  That should have been too tough. Okay, so to bring us back into
• 1:04:52
  the topic. I'll get, I'll always my
• 1:04:54
  question again. So, what would you like to see
• 1:04:58
  in war games implemented into tabletop games and vice versa?
• 1:05:04
  Like, you know, we we could be talking about literal literally
• 1:05:06
  like hero character sheets. We'd be talking about Mass
• 1:05:10
  combat rules because let's be honest, a lot, a lot of games.
• 1:05:14
  Don't have very good Mass combat rules, with new fifth edition
• 1:05:22
  and kind of need things to be worked out.
• 1:05:24
  Some games are a lot better. Some games, you know, use
• 1:05:26
  fictional positioning. We were talking about fictional
• 1:05:28
  positioning in tabletop. The board gaming Or you know, we
• 1:05:34
  could like oh I want to see that now because I my my answer to
• 1:05:42
  this is I wish there was a better way to implement Mass
• 1:05:44
  combat into T RPGs. It's sometimes it's good.
• 1:05:51
  Sometimes you just roll with the squad mechanic which is
• 1:05:53
  basically what you know we're games are they usually have a
• 1:05:56
  squad as a unit or a swarm as a unit Star Wars.
• 1:06:01
  Did that I know for instance Distance.
• 1:06:03
  But like the Indy. It's pretty fucking bad.
• 1:06:06
  Yeah. So I'll answer this in in like a
• 1:06:08
  two-fold. So for one right.
• 1:06:12
  The, the common sense answer. I feel like I want is not common
• 1:06:15
  sense. The the like, the more grounded
• 1:06:18
  one that I want is more tactical positioning.
• 1:06:22
  I want there to be a reason for characters to have fucking 300
• 1:06:26
  feet of movement. I want there to be a reason that
• 1:06:30
  like the dragon and can Fly-in. That's that's more interesting
• 1:06:33
  than it. Just doesn't land and murders
• 1:06:36
  you with his breath weapon. You know?
• 1:06:38
  Yeah, the more the ideal that I want is terrain I I want to rain
• 1:06:50
  to matter more and like there are some games where it matters
• 1:06:54
  and there's some games where like you can sort of cheese it,
• 1:06:57
  right? Like How about the apocalypse
• 1:07:03
  game? For example, the train is what
• 1:07:06
  you make of it, right? Like the train is what the
• 1:07:08
  narrative, dictates the terrain is.
• 1:07:10
  So if you're fighting in the trees, there's sort of some like
• 1:07:14
  narrative things that go in. So like, oh well you you know,
• 1:07:17
  you might, if you get like a partial success, there's a
• 1:07:20
  chance that you might fall and if you do fall, you might have
• 1:07:22
  to make a defy danger check. So this is that but like you
• 1:07:27
  can't really gamify that, you can really take advantage of it
• 1:07:30
  in like a like a sort of looking for a codified way mechanical by
• 1:07:37
  the number. Yeah there's no numbers
• 1:07:40
  involved. The advantage of the terrain in
• 1:07:43
  a fictional and a fictional positioning base game is the
• 1:07:46
  fictional advantage that that terrain would give you in real
• 1:07:49
  life. There's no hard numbers coded to
• 1:07:51
  the advantage of the know. So the advantage of being in a
• 1:07:55
  tree in Dungeon world, when you're trying to kill the goblin
• 1:07:58
  below, you is you're in a tree. And the Goblin is not in the
• 1:08:02
  tree. You're you could shoot down at
• 1:08:04
  him. He cannot shoot up at you but
• 1:08:06
  there's no numbers to like represent that.
• 1:08:09
  It's literally just the fictional implications of what
• 1:08:11
  that means. I would want to I would kind of
• 1:08:15
  want it in the vein of like Fire Emblem.
• 1:08:20
  And I know I think only me and Sam I played those games but
• 1:08:26
  it's pretty simple. So like you've obviously you
• 1:08:28
  have different kinds of maps. You have our terrain areas so
• 1:08:31
  you have planes forests mountains.
• 1:08:36
  Water buildings and I'm missing something.
• 1:08:43
  I know I am that's and there's a, there's a different sort of
• 1:08:51
  train. Each one does a thing.
• 1:08:53
  So if you're in if you're in Planes, that's pretty much what
• 1:08:57
  it sounds like. That's just normal flat ground,
• 1:08:59
  anyone can move their, you have no inhibitions but no boost to
• 1:09:03
  your movement speed forests depending on the game.
• 1:09:06
  Game Cavalry units, can't go into Force varies obviously,
• 1:09:09
  right? Because you have to maneuver to
• 1:09:10
  the forest. It's really hard to fight there.
• 1:09:12
  But if you're in forested areas, it's harder to get shot with
• 1:09:16
  ranged attacks because you have the trees there to defend.
• 1:09:19
  You water, your movement is obviously just slowed because
• 1:09:22
  it's hard to move through water Mountain only.
• 1:09:26
  Flying units can go over Mountain areas.
• 1:09:28
  So anything with like a fly ability, And then there's
• 1:09:31
  actually things that go into. Like, if you're in the air,
• 1:09:34
  you're easier to get shot with arrows.
• 1:09:36
  So all all aerial units are super weak to Bose but they
• 1:09:41
  often are a bit better against magic whereas you know super
• 1:09:46
  armored enemies like generals and nights are super weak to
• 1:09:49
  Magic, but basically can't be touched by a bow.
• 1:09:53
  I want that more of it anyway because there are some games
• 1:09:56
  that do have it, but like not the way that I want it.
• 1:10:01
  Andy Andy has some point, some of it.
• 1:10:04
  Yeah. But like, I want more but also
• 1:10:07
  you a lot of that stuff you're talking about is a real mechanic
• 1:10:12
  representing effects of it. It's the mechanic is
• 1:10:17
  representing the effects of terrain on a fight, but that
• 1:10:21
  fight is on a large scale, which is to say, to two armies or two
• 1:10:24
  platoons, at the very least coming up against each other.
• 1:10:28
  A lot of that wouldn't work in something like D and D because
• 1:10:32
  your specific because you're so zoomed in on the action of it's
• 1:10:35
  a couple of dudes vs. A couple of dudes.
• 1:10:37
  So like the idea that oh, the calvary can't go in the forest.
• 1:10:41
  It doesn't really work in D&D because we're so zoomed in that
• 1:10:44
  we're not looking at the forest, we're looking at a section of
• 1:10:47
  the forest and you can physically see where each of the
• 1:10:50
  trees are, some of those just won't work.
• 1:10:52
  Yes. Well it depends on the size of
• 1:10:54
  your map because like you can have like I think the biggest
• 1:10:57
  map I've been in. 50 by 50 and there's a lot of room for
• 1:11:01
  training those and obviously that was like a fart scale.
• 1:11:04
  Pseudo dungeon kind of map but there was things where it's like
• 1:11:08
  it wasn't like a big force that area was chunks of trees.
• 1:11:10
  So if we have focused in more than in some people are.
• 1:11:14
  Yeah. Um so it's you can't like it
• 1:11:18
  would be really weird if you plopped in D&D if you plopped
• 1:11:22
  your token in the middle of a like, cusp of trees.
• 1:11:26
  And then the DM was like, Like cool.
• 1:11:30
  This this this anime monster just can't go in that group of
• 1:11:34
  trees to attack you because you have tree protection even though
• 1:11:38
  you could potentially see on the map there space.
• 1:11:40
  It's like, it doesn't really work the same.
• 1:11:45
  No, I get what you're saying. I just, I still want it.
• 1:11:50
  Or something in the vein of it. Something that makes movement
• 1:11:53
  more necessary and things don't just I think you're looking at
• 1:11:56
  the same spot. Yeah, I get what you're saying
• 1:11:58
  about things not standing in the same spot but you're I think
• 1:12:00
  you're taking the wrong inspiration Fire.
• 1:12:04
  Emblem, it isn't. Doesn't represent quite the same
• 1:12:09
  thing, so it's kind of hard to apply it.
• 1:12:15
  Yeah, I mean I guess but I don't know.
• 1:12:17
  I still think there are things you could take from that idea.
• 1:12:20
  You can take the premise using Fire Emblem is that Fire Emblem
• 1:12:24
  is actually just about like you know, you got dudes and they're
• 1:12:29
  fighting and they're like 15 dudes and all of these terrains
• 1:12:34
  still have effects on them even though they're supposed to be a
• 1:12:37
  very large piece of map. So it just doesn't Doesn't
• 1:12:42
  translate very well. It's like the whole.
• 1:12:44
  Oh, just this person's a 5 by 5 Cube or five by five by five
• 1:12:48
  cube, that's really weird D&D. That's I think the main problem
• 1:12:52
  with translating it to a board game.
• 1:12:54
  Mentally just doesn't make fucking sense.
• 1:12:59
  Yeah, I suppose. Like, I think there's a way you
• 1:13:03
  could work it but you know, if you're doing a one-to-one
• 1:13:07
  translation, it's not exactly the best.
• 1:13:12
  No. And I don't, I wouldn't be
• 1:13:13
  wanting to use a one-to-one translation but they're really,
• 1:13:15
  there is something to say about like this has good ideas and I
• 1:13:18
  would like to see some of those ideas moved to other until I'm
• 1:13:21
  absolutely really like to see you.
• 1:13:24
  No more reason for a character to move other than I am Castor
• 1:13:30
  and I wish to be out of melee range of things.
• 1:13:32
  That hit me hard. You know, it.
• 1:13:38
  I am ranged boy. I use the Misti step to get
• 1:13:41
  away. Whoo, boost Easter.
• 1:13:44
  No curse words, healthiest, whatever the one Deez Nuts,
• 1:13:51
  fucking thing. If they ever get to have a like
• 1:13:55
  wargaming rule, I would just still going to call it that.
• 1:13:58
  I'm sorry. I can't.
• 1:13:59
  It's actually annoying me now. Which is so much.
• 1:14:09
  It's not funny anymore. That's too funny to be funny.
• 1:14:21
  Because I know like in the DM's guy, they have the, you know,
• 1:14:23
  the Mob Rules, let you know something, but not like a lot of
• 1:14:26
  War rules in. I told you guys this was one of
• 1:14:30
  the campaign's I wanted to run was the Ebron Oracle war and
• 1:14:35
  towards the end of the campaign like the players are level 17,
• 1:14:39
  there is a massive War battle that goes on and they even
• 1:14:42
  bathing have the little brackets.
• 1:14:44
  Like this little sub text box text Whether like Stacks, yeah,
• 1:14:48
  like this, like, this battle offers wargame light rules for
• 1:14:54
  resolving this conflict, and like makes it very, it's it's,
• 1:15:00
  you know, 5e war game rules. It's very simple, its
• 1:15:03
  straightforward. And now, as I think it works,
• 1:15:07
  it's like, you know, you have each Army has certain counters
• 1:15:10
  or tokens, whatever the hell, you know, then you have your
• 1:15:14
  armies and then your adventuring party specifically is its own
• 1:15:18
  even smaller token. And while the battle is going on
• 1:15:23
  your party, you know, either people are separated.
• 1:15:27
  You like your players are sticking together.
• 1:15:29
  There's not like Legolas is going to go off and help, you
• 1:15:32
  know that Army get Emily's going to go off and help that are me,
• 1:15:35
  it's like that. So you guys stick together or
• 1:15:37
  you get lost and you probably get trampled to death.
• 1:15:39
  Hmm, I mean that's like, you know, move during the party,
• 1:15:44
  moving your allies, moving the enemy and then resolve any
• 1:15:47
  conflicts and then resolve any party combat.
• 1:15:50
  If the party is fighting, you know, in an army battle and then
• 1:15:54
  rinse and repeat. It's like super easy.
• 1:15:56
  I would like so that yeah, I'll send you guys that.
• 1:16:00
  Yeah, but it's very good. It's and yeah I think you know
• 1:16:04
  the hopefully 5e or 5560 whatever the fuck like they take
• 1:16:10
  this they take this Adventure League module and Use that for
• 1:16:13
  building like a wargame light or some sort of war game like
• 1:16:17
  tactics, because I know I can see the ended the stronghold of
• 1:16:21
  follow the rules. They came in with warfare's even
• 1:16:24
  like I like, I know I suck at reading but even I'm like oh my
• 1:16:28
  God, this is so hot, they won't I really want to try those rules
• 1:16:33
  but I won't you. Let you know.
• 1:16:36
  Then they would add like they would not Implement some sort of
• 1:16:38
  like Squad level combat? No, I don't think so.
• 1:16:41
  They're not going to they're not going to Touch it.
• 1:16:43
  It's it's a it's a to Niche. No, it's um, I can't even think
• 1:16:51
  I have, it's like whatever the opposite of like, your white
• 1:16:53
  whale is it's it's just one of those things that have looked at
• 1:16:56
  in their life. This is not what our game is
• 1:16:58
  about. There's no point in us trying to
• 1:17:01
  make the game about it. We are not focused on it.
• 1:17:03
  We're just not going to even try to touch it.
• 1:17:05
  Other people can figure it out if they want.
• 1:17:07
  We're not touching it. I actually wondered if they were
• 1:17:11
  gonna, they would have already. Well I wonder now because the
• 1:17:14
  dragonlance adventure just came out and that's what they do man.
• 1:17:18
  I wonder if there's something in there may be no.
• 1:17:20
  Do you know what they did for the Dragon lives Adventure made
• 1:17:23
  an entire other game. Wait what?
• 1:17:26
  Oh the board game. They literally say in the
• 1:17:29
  dragonlance adventures to do the fights to do the wars.
• 1:17:33
  In this adventure. Play the dragonlance board game.
• 1:17:36
  They literally say, I forgot as your campaign play the board
• 1:17:39
  game. No, come back together, lying
• 1:17:42
  working on. That's what they did.
• 1:17:44
  So they said okay, bye and play this other game.
• 1:17:48
  Yes, what they said was when you get to the parts and the in the
• 1:17:56
  adventure where a battle happens, if they didn't say you
• 1:18:00
  have to, but if you want to do the battle and play it out and
• 1:18:04
  see what happens, play the accompanying dragonlance board
• 1:18:08
  game and I believe they also gave your rules to how you can
• 1:18:10
  Implement your player characters.
• 1:18:12
  I think Ink. I know, I think sold on the
• 1:18:16
  NPC's in the adventure, I believe are present in the board
• 1:18:20
  game. So by the fact that they did
• 1:18:25
  that is pretty clear. They're never going to try and
• 1:18:27
  put any kind of War gaming mechanics and d and e.
• 1:18:30
  And you know what? Hot take I don't want them to I
• 1:18:35
  do not want war gaming mechanics in my DND.
• 1:18:37
  It's it don't it's on the if your campaign is like, this is
• 1:18:41
  like again for this, the a on thing.
• 1:18:44
  This is the only time this happens.
• 1:18:45
  So I'm fine with it. Like you want that big Lord of
• 1:18:48
  the Rings and fight like that's fine.
• 1:18:51
  Here's money. They're doing a whole campaign
• 1:18:52
  like that. Like good on you pal.
• 1:18:54
  Like holy shit. Here's my thing.
• 1:18:57
  For me, it comes down to two situations, two ways, you handle
• 1:19:01
  it, either. You do what they did with
• 1:19:04
  dragonlance because I actually like that decision that they
• 1:19:07
  made with dragonlance, I like I think that was a great idea.
• 1:19:11
  This is optional, it's not forced and it's cool and a good
• 1:19:15
  idea because having a dedicated board game for that purpose
• 1:19:19
  makes things a lot easier than trying to shoehorn in war gaming
• 1:19:24
  mechanics onto your existing game.
• 1:19:27
  So either my two options I want to see is make me a separate
• 1:19:31
  game / a separate. I guess you could sort of make a
• 1:19:36
  separate minigame within your tabletop game that's packing and
• 1:19:40
  stuff. Like it's really what?
• 1:19:42
  I what I consider when I'm like oh give me wargaming in this
• 1:19:45
  game. Just make it a minute.
• 1:19:46
  You can't make it the mix a little bit of that.
• 1:19:48
  Yeah, but you can either I want a separate game or the way I'm
• 1:19:53
  going to handle war and my D&D games.
• 1:19:56
  The war is going on, we're watching what the players are
• 1:19:59
  doing during the war. We're going to focus in, on the
• 1:20:02
  little individual battles, the player characters get involved
• 1:20:04
  in as the GM. Maybe I'll do some background
• 1:20:07
  stuff for the greater War, but we're not all playing in the
• 1:20:10
  greater were right because your focus.
• 1:20:13
  I want to have the scene of if I'm doing a war, right?
• 1:20:16
  If I'm doing Helm's Deep, I'm not having the players role for
• 1:20:21
  all the nerdy elves who get dunked on on the wall.
• 1:20:24
  And all the fucking Orcs that like, Explode and running it.
• 1:20:27
  No no I'm looking at Legolas and Gimli and say all right players
• 1:20:31
  what are you doing? Oh we're talking shit to each
• 1:20:32
  other while we kill a couple of Orcs.
• 1:20:34
  All right, let's roll initiative.
• 1:20:36
  Have them fight, like, four or five works.
• 1:20:38
  Go back to the major war. Do a little thing.
• 1:20:40
  What's going on? Hey, are going.
• 1:20:42
  What do you at home over? On this part of wall, fighting a
• 1:20:44
  different group of dudes, trying to get the bridge up or down.
• 1:20:46
  I forget what he's doing, but you know what I mean?
• 1:20:48
  Yeah, Bridge up. Yeah.
• 1:20:50
  All right, we're going to do a fight Aragorn.
• 1:20:52
  You're being attacked by like three Orcs, we're zooming in on
• 1:20:55
  this little skirmish. You're trying to get the bridge
• 1:20:56
  up. You kill the dudes NPC's on.
• 1:20:59
  The background are getting the bridge up.
• 1:21:00
  You succeed in the fight, they get the bridge up.
• 1:21:01
  That's how I do it. If I'm gonna do a war scene, I'm
• 1:21:05
  just going to zoom in on what the player characters are doing.
• 1:21:08
  I think that's what most people end up doing at least when it
• 1:21:12
  comes to like, d and e, Pathfinder whatever.
• 1:21:14
  I'm just not for me. The the platoons of dudes like
• 1:21:20
  smashing heads into each other is not interesting.
• 1:21:22
  I don't care what they're up to there, they are and they're set.
• 1:21:26
  Seeing as far as I'm concerned lights at the it's that's why
• 1:21:28
  I'm, like, I really like the ever on thing because it's once
• 1:21:31
  it's never coming up. Even the fun thing to players
• 1:21:34
  get to. It's also, you get the players
• 1:21:36
  involved with it, you give them an army.
• 1:21:39
  You give them a platoon, whatever's are involved as
• 1:21:41
  you're focusing on what their characters doing.
• 1:21:43
  They're still. Yes.
• 1:21:44
  But like you get them now more. So, because, like, it's the same
• 1:21:47
  thing where, like, in the, the Matt Koval video where he gave
• 1:21:51
  the one player running, an NPC Goblin, who's fighting the
• 1:21:55
  players? Like like laying the players
• 1:21:58
  also control the board and Run the game a little bit and it's
• 1:22:01
  like, oh well now I'm putting I'm controlling an army ants
• 1:22:03
  like oh yeah. Know what I actually do and say
• 1:22:06
  matters in the, the big army. Yeah, just being the secret
• 1:22:09
  players but what I'm talking about with the Helm's Deep
• 1:22:13
  scenario. Everything the PCS in this case,
• 1:22:15
  Gimli Legolas and Aragon do Aragorn do matters, right?
• 1:22:23
  Oh yeah, so wait the way you make it relevant is the The
• 1:22:26
  stuff that the PCS are doing are the big things that sway, the
• 1:22:29
  direction of the war or bad? Yeah, I know.
• 1:22:32
  But if I just I don't know if I want to do the like platoons of
• 1:22:37
  dudes smashing into each other, I'm just gonna play war hammer
• 1:22:41
  is my mentality. You know I'll just play a word
• 1:22:43
  game that's about that. I don't know what I get that, I
• 1:22:46
  get what you're saying. I don't know II for me as a
• 1:22:48
  player. This is actually come up before
• 1:22:50
  where it was like oh players there's going to be a big war
• 1:22:53
  thing going on. You're going to have like a
• 1:22:57
  squat. Each of you can have like a
• 1:22:58
  specialty Squad of dude. So like my character was the
• 1:23:01
  long-range guy. So I got like a squad of
• 1:23:03
  Sharpshooters and then the other guy was like the stealthy guy
• 1:23:05
  and they was they were like the Deep strike robes.
• 1:23:08
  And then we had like the big Mage Caster dude who is just got
• 1:23:11
  like a bitch. They're just a bum barred Squad,
• 1:23:13
  you know. We didn't get to control the
• 1:23:17
  squad within gets like, give them orders.
• 1:23:19
  They just did their own thing while we're at separate points
• 1:23:22
  in the map. So I just sort of felt weirdly
• 1:23:25
  disjointed and I feel like if you could you know, if you could
• 1:23:29
  set your squad to like fire or to pick specific targets and
• 1:23:34
  have that like affect the battle, to be like, oh well, the
• 1:23:37
  Deep Strike team is they're going to there's like a squad
• 1:23:39
  that's going to intersect them and if they get held up, they
• 1:23:41
  can't do the thing. You can fire at them.
• 1:23:45
  No, it would. I don't, I feel like that will
• 1:23:46
  Elevate the game a little bit that see, but that's fine
• 1:23:50
  because that's really at the end of the day.
• 1:23:51
  That's just a modification of what I was talking about, right?
• 1:23:55
  You're still zooming in on what the players are doing, you're
• 1:23:58
  still focusing on the PC characters in the fight and then
• 1:24:01
  they're throwing out there, the commander of the, of the, like
• 1:24:04
  art, you know, your Rangers, the commander of the Archer units.
• 1:24:08
  We get into the fight. All right Ranger, it's your turn
• 1:24:11
  initiative. Do your thing.
• 1:24:12
  Bob LOL. Alright, once your turn is over,
• 1:24:14
  what do You say to your squad, what's the order you give,
• 1:24:17
  right? And then that will influence the
• 1:24:18
  battle that's essentially just a modification of the thing I was
• 1:24:21
  talking about. So that's fine that doing it
• 1:24:24
  that way I think is, is totally viable.
• 1:24:27
  Like sort of you focus on the player characters and then also
• 1:24:31
  the player characters have influence over like a chunk of
• 1:24:34
  units or a section or whatever. I think that's a five rated.
• 1:24:39
  But that's not, that's not a full-blown or mechanic, know,
• 1:24:47
  the full block like honestly, what's it?
• 1:24:52
  What's it kingdoms? And warfare that MC VM put out,
• 1:24:57
  I looked in that and I'm like, there's probably some cool ideas
• 1:24:59
  in there, but I have zero interest in that.
• 1:25:01
  Like, just I do not care. And I mean, because
• 1:25:05
  specifically, Matt Coles Hill said when he designed that or
• 1:25:08
  when When they were working on that, there are no rules zero
• 1:25:14
  rules for how the player characters can affect the units
• 1:25:18
  in the fight. Because he specifically said so
• 1:25:21
  if you want to have your player characters affect the units in a
• 1:25:24
  fight, then you're then what you want to do isn't working and I'm
• 1:25:27
  like oh yeah you're right. So I don't I don't want that
• 1:25:30
  book done, you know? I mean granted I can see that
• 1:25:34
  there's no more stock in the book like Monsters and shit too.
• 1:25:36
  But that's beside the point. Well yeah well I think that the
• 1:25:38
  kingdom Builder one is the one that I was most, what I'm talkin
• 1:25:40
  about, like yeah like having factions and shit especially if
• 1:25:43
  you want to have like a more politically focused game, you
• 1:25:47
  can like the fact that you can gain Favor with factions and you
• 1:25:51
  can do think that's all strong best strongholds and followers
• 1:25:53
  and strongholds. Yeah, and the struggles of all
• 1:25:55
  over because they do have a Warfare light rules in that book
• 1:26:00
  and then kingdoms and warfare's is like, all right, here's the
• 1:26:03
  heavy hitter. Yeah, here's the giant, fucking
• 1:26:05
  book of warfare. The workers are games and
• 1:26:09
  warfare rules, and strongholds, and followers were basically the
• 1:26:11
  beta test for the kingdoms of warfare rules.
• 1:26:14
  I, so I have strongholds and followers in the, the factions
• 1:26:19
  stuff that we got in there was not really what I wanted as
• 1:26:25
  Arcane rules of warfare. Except this is like, here's a
• 1:26:29
  bunch of factions and armies and stuff for your Warfare.
• 1:26:33
  Here's the Warfare rules. Here's the light Warfare rules.
• 1:26:37
  And if you want to expand upon that, get more decks because the
• 1:26:40
  each Army is based on deck of cards and stuff, that's when
• 1:26:43
  kingdoms of warfare is going to come out and then we'll show you
• 1:26:46
  how to actually do the Warfare like real life.
• 1:26:49
  Like it nor fair rules are whole board game like it's really a
• 1:26:52
  separate game. Yeah, it's that's us.
• 1:26:54
  That's what I'm saying. That's what I mean the two
• 1:26:56
  methods, right? The board game or the zoom in on
• 1:26:58
  the PC method, I'm not really interested in playing the board
• 1:27:01
  game. So I just Mino Mino lucky, you
• 1:27:05
  know, that's kind, that's kind of like that's not a saying
• 1:27:08
  that's why that book I was like not about although the kingdom
• 1:27:10
  stuff. There might be something going
• 1:27:12
  on in there. The kingdom stuff was the castle
• 1:27:17
  rule Yeah and add more that I might like but the the war the
• 1:27:22
  yeah the war game part of it. I'm like yeah.
• 1:27:25
  Nothing not none of them needs more lemon.
• 1:27:29
  Let someone who's used the stronghold rules in the
• 1:27:30
  campaign. It was very fun players.
• 1:27:33
  Really love it. I must think the like retainers
• 1:27:36
  and shit. Oracle idea that the retainers
• 1:27:38
  are great. I must have missed something in
• 1:27:41
  that book because I wanted, like a comprehensive way to do to you
• 1:27:46
  like, oh, you do something for this faction, they enjoy it.
• 1:27:48
  You would, these are like the things you get when you Garner
• 1:27:51
  favor with that faction. I didn't find that in that book,
• 1:27:53
  so maybe I can't even Warfare. There's more factions and
• 1:27:56
  kingdoms the other factions of strongholds and followers are,
• 1:28:00
  hey, you are a wizard. Hey, you are a barbarian.
• 1:28:03
  Hey, you are a rogue whatever. This is what happens when you
• 1:28:06
  build up a kingdom or a stronghold or whatever, and then
• 1:28:09
  they have three separate rules for like, are you building 14?
• 1:28:13
  Like, are you building a temple? Because you're a cleric or
• 1:28:16
  Druid? Whatever, are you building a
• 1:28:18
  like actual, like, stronghold for Warfare and stuff?
• 1:28:21
  Are you a fighter or out? And whatever are you a bard?
• 1:28:25
  You just want to build a fucking super Swanky, like nightclub,
• 1:28:28
  like, and then those add rules and like ways to make money, or
• 1:28:33
  get land or get army and then you get special perks because of
• 1:28:36
  your class specifically. So, like there was a, I think
• 1:28:40
  specifically like the Warlock player.
• 1:28:43
  They got an extra spells a lot because they because they are a
• 1:28:47
  warlock with a stronghold and then on top of that, they get to
• 1:28:50
  roll every time they love love for every time.
• 1:28:53
  The stronghold levels up, Which empowers the stronghold.
• 1:28:57
  But also then the players get special perks like they get a
• 1:29:00
  special squad or they get a special super MPC.
• 1:29:03
  Like I keep bringing up Chris, the shadow monk.
• 1:29:07
  When he rolled the first time on the stronghold rules, he got the
• 1:29:11
  sapphire, the, a young sapphire dragon, and BC was the parties
• 1:29:16
  out Li. And he, thus, the young Sapphire
• 1:29:19
  drag will just live around the stronghold, didn't wasn't all
• 1:29:25
  only helped when it felt like it, but he was really, you know,
• 1:29:29
  it was such an interesting NPC and has a bunch of that shit for
• 1:29:33
  every class, the monk roguelike, all of them, If you're looking
• 1:29:38
  for more faction stuff, that's where Kingdom Warfare because
• 1:29:41
  they actually built into it. Like, do you want to be a
• 1:29:44
  Thieves Guild with a domain and all that should do you want to
• 1:29:46
  be a wizard Guild? And you know, have all this,
• 1:29:52
  they these magic armies and should do you want to be a
• 1:29:55
  fighter Gil? Do you want it?
• 1:29:56
  You know, and all these different factions go in there.
• 1:30:00
  Yeah, e. That would explain a lot.
• 1:30:05
  Yeah, yeah. I mean I do, I don't want war
• 1:30:14
  game stuff necessarily my game, but that doesn't mean, I don't
• 1:30:17
  think there's any lessons to take from wargaming.
• 1:30:20
  I just think those lessons. I think the lessons that
• 1:30:23
  tabletop can use from wargaming is stuff that's more focused in
• 1:30:28
  like Isaiah was talking about with the terrain, those sorts of
• 1:30:32
  more like mechanics that you can apply to the small Squad based
• 1:30:36
  structure of a D&D type game. I think that makes more sense.
• 1:30:40
  You know, but yeah, the like bigger, like, or in battle Focus
• 1:30:45
  mechanics. No, we don't need those.
• 1:30:49
  I'm good. At least for my two sons, them
• 1:30:53
  are enough. Mac, you got anything for us of
• 1:30:58
  them Spiel, you just gave, but I'm pretty good.
• 1:31:02
  No no, what else? And what else about war game?
• 1:31:05
  I mean that that that's kind of its kind of a big question.
• 1:31:09
  I had honestly, oh shit, Brother Louis that, you know, we can
• 1:31:13
  well cake and Implement into either game.
• 1:31:20
  I think that war games definitely could have a little
• 1:31:22
  bit more. Depends on the game, honestly,
• 1:31:26
  there are too many of them with too many different mechanics.
• 1:31:29
  It's because I'm assuming, if you're playing like a World War
• 1:31:31
  2 game like like, you know, it's like you're not really playing
• 1:31:37
  like the War, General controlling the Army, right?
• 1:31:40
  It's not like League of Legends were like, your the Summoner
• 1:31:43
  summoning? The guys.
• 1:31:44
  It's not like that, right? I mean, that's kind of what all
• 1:31:47
  of them are your, your commanding troops in any war
• 1:31:52
  game? Yeah.
• 1:31:54
  You're the general of or something equivalent.
• 1:31:59
  Yeah, usually the term for where a while you're called a warlord.
• 1:32:03
  Okay. Yeah, so you're you are
• 1:32:09
  genuinely commanding like a section of an army depending on
• 1:32:13
  the points that you use. That's another thing that we're
• 1:32:17
  going to have been. I don't know how much you know
• 1:32:19
  about it but like we're going to she's points for their armies.
• 1:32:22
  Every unit has second set of points and then you just kind of
• 1:32:27
  Spread those throughout most of the time, you have a point limit
• 1:32:30
  on an army before you bring it into a fight.
• 1:32:34
  So like you can't walk up to a 2000 Point Army, you know, game
• 1:32:40
  and be like, all right, here's my three thousand Point Army
• 1:32:43
  because then they'll just be like, dude, you're over what's
• 1:32:47
  wrong with you? So, Yeah.
• 1:32:55
  There's a lot more that goes into wargaming, free game and
• 1:33:00
  during the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, pregame
• 1:33:07
  buildup is a is little wild is a lot is a lot is a lot, you know,
• 1:33:12
  just setting up your armies more than building your character
• 1:33:15
  because it's not one character. You're focusing Austin entire
• 1:33:18
  Army at his head, everything you build.
• 1:33:20
  This re not even just that like, I mean, like some units have
• 1:33:24
  different weapons. They can choose so like for
• 1:33:28
  instance, you know, skaven Clan rats.
• 1:33:30
  You know it's it's the unit is 20 Clan rats and that's 100
• 1:33:34
  points right there. Clan rats.
• 1:33:36
  Have two different weapons that they can choose from and the
• 1:33:41
  everyone in the unit has to have them.
• 1:33:42
  You can either have swords or Spears.
• 1:33:46
  So if you have 20 Clan rats with it like you have this unit, this
• 1:33:50
  unit you have to decide. This is when you're building it
• 1:33:54
  whether they're not they're going to have Spears or sorts.
• 1:33:57
  Like that's one thing that you have to really think about like
• 1:34:00
  specially units. You kind of don't have to do
• 1:34:01
  that but like units like iron rats or I don't know Guardsmen
• 1:34:08
  you have to choose what weapons they have before you even like
• 1:34:14
  build the Army. Yeah yeah you have to You have
• 1:34:16
  to pick out their Weaponry as you're building the model.
• 1:34:20
  There are ways to cheese it like a people will do in 40 K is they
• 1:34:23
  will yield Rebel little magnets into the arms and into the
• 1:34:26
  towards oh so you can actually enter change the body parts.
• 1:34:30
  So if you know you're going up against like someone's just
• 1:34:33
  rocking up with a heavy armor like tanks and shit.
• 1:34:36
  I got a cool, my demolition Squad now has biked all melted
• 1:34:40
  plasma guns and melt the guns and crack grenades and shit and
• 1:34:42
  you can just do that. Assuming that you did not
• 1:34:45
  pretty. It's not considered cheating.
• 1:34:49
  No. Those little bit little bit more
• 1:34:58
  set up to your army, then, you know, say a character and DND
• 1:35:02
  because you're not focusing on just the build of One Singular
• 1:35:06
  person. One Singular entity, you're
• 1:35:10
  doing several units of people and you're taking into account.
• 1:35:16
  Like what's going up against A lot of people complain about war
• 1:35:22
  hammer though, because you'll Warhammer is a good example,
• 1:35:28
  because one The Meta changes, if you don't want to spend
• 1:35:32
  thousands of dollars on a new Army, you know, you're going to
• 1:35:36
  be stuck playing against about an endless, you're playing
• 1:35:38
  casual games and you know, with friends said of competitive
• 1:35:43
  basically competitive or Hammer is like competitive card games.
• 1:35:47
  But 10 times worse, Yeah, I can't even imagine.
• 1:35:52
  Yeah, could walk is what they do every additional put out 10,000
• 1:35:55
  to. Yeah.
• 1:35:55
  If you if you play competitive what they'll do is every so
• 1:35:58
  often the put like every new addition will put out codexes
• 1:36:01
  which are Rule books and you have to buy them Eve like so
• 1:36:05
  they'll do like a factional book, right?
• 1:36:07
  So the do like space rain will be codecs and like an elder
• 1:36:11
  codecs are like, okay, that's cool.
• 1:36:12
  That's fine. This is awesome.
• 1:36:14
  And you'll have rules there but then they'll put out sub faction
• 1:36:16
  codexes so you can get an ultramarine specific.
• 1:36:19
  Codex and then you'll get their success success or chapters and
• 1:36:23
  like their Heroes, and that's more rules and often updated
• 1:36:27
  rules. So you have to go.
• 1:36:28
  Okay, well let's fuck this fucking book and I got to go buy
• 1:36:30
  this fucking book and you buy that.
• 1:36:33
  They also the thing that they've been doing which people have
• 1:36:35
  been quite salty about, is they are, they're basically building
• 1:36:42
  the models now. So that you can't kit bash them,
• 1:36:46
  like their bodies just are are angled and Isn't in such a way
• 1:36:51
  that you can't like, oh, I want this.
• 1:36:54
  I have a black Temple, Templar, a champion model.
• 1:36:59
  It's like a warlord viable model for black 10 bars.
• 1:37:03
  He has a guardian sphere, which is a custodies weapon and you
• 1:37:07
  can't actually give them that. You can be like, oh, I've put
• 1:37:10
  this little piece on and we're going to call this like a power
• 1:37:13
  glaive, right? You can't do that anymore
• 1:37:16
  because they're making it so that you have to do serious
• 1:37:19
  modifications. Tation to your bits or you just
• 1:37:22
  can't. And also they're really cracking
• 1:37:24
  down on like proxy stuff. So, you can't even do what I
• 1:37:28
  just said, right? You can't put a guardian Spirit
• 1:37:30
  on and be like, Oh, I'm using this as a power of live there.
• 1:37:32
  Like, nope, that's not terribly. Well, you can't do that.
• 1:37:36
  It's getting crazy. And I assume in a bid to get you
• 1:37:39
  to spend more money. Yes yep.
• 1:37:42
  Are they still like after all the backlash and everything
• 1:37:45
  going on our people still like playing the game or that has
• 1:37:49
  been a massive Connor anything. So unfortunately, they kind of
• 1:37:55
  have people in a bit of a Stranglehold, right?
• 1:37:57
  Because it's like no matter what they do wrong They will put out
• 1:38:02
  like, box sets in people buy those box sets pretty, you know,
• 1:38:08
  pretty concurrently so while they are bleeding money through
• 1:38:12
  like we're Hammer plus which is not it wasn't worth it when it
• 1:38:17
  came out and I think it's barely worth it now.
• 1:38:21
  Like oh yeah that's fine. We'll just put out another a few
• 1:38:23
  more space ring box. That's because everybody by
• 1:38:25
  Space Marines. And well you know will not we're
• 1:38:27
  not going to break even but we will greatly lessen the damage
• 1:38:30
  and now that Making even more money because they're doing 30k.
• 1:38:34
  And the crazy thing about 30k is that you get a bunch of shit
• 1:38:37
  that like, you don't get access to and 40K.
• 1:38:39
  So like new tanks, new Weaponry that like they've caught lost
• 1:38:44
  since the Horus. Heresy, you can play pry marks.
• 1:38:47
  Now, you can get like non chaos versions of all the chaos
• 1:38:51
  factions and you can play with their Champions before they went
• 1:38:54
  evil and people eat that shit up.
• 1:38:57
  Yeah, it's be honest, I'm sure. I would eat it up to.
• 1:38:59
  Yeah. So like I can't Right on but
• 1:39:02
  yeah, it is Games Workshop. Okay, not the one situation
• 1:39:08
  where like, people still bought the fucking new game even though
• 1:39:11
  it had so many issues and problems with it.
• 1:39:13
  Yet. Outsold every other Pokemon
• 1:39:15
  game. I said, I literally saw a meme
• 1:39:18
  today and, you know, not to bring up current topics too
• 1:39:21
  much. But the, the kerfuffle with 5e
• 1:39:23
  at the moment, right there was like a post, it was like, it was
• 1:39:27
  like a meme format that was like, oh, this company is
• 1:39:31
  fucking over the thing that I love and it was the James Franco
• 1:39:33
  with the news and it's just as Games Workshop because first
• 1:39:35
  time I was like, yeah, I hate that.
• 1:39:44
  Yeah, it is true. Yeah, companies white white
• 1:39:49
  Arie, understand you like money, but like, why you want all of
• 1:39:52
  our money, our money, why you want all of her money, we can
• 1:39:56
  spend all of our money on one hobby.
• 1:39:58
  I say, I have definitely spent most of my money on like magic
• 1:40:06
  when I was younger. Yeah, I mean, listen, you know,
• 1:40:09
  if we, you know, if we really, you know, we wanted we could get
• 1:40:12
  into the, the, you know, the See that companies believe that
• 1:40:15
  money is just infinite and you know, it'll can you could just
• 1:40:19
  keep making more year-over-year right?
• 1:40:21
  That's reasonable and possible. Yep.
• 1:40:23
  Mmmm no problems aren't question.
• 1:40:25
  Just consume. Yeah.
• 1:40:27
  And it's totally reasonable that a company will always just make
• 1:40:30
  more money. That's totally doable.
• 1:40:31
  Unbelievable. Yep.
• 1:40:34
  Definitely. No problems here ways.
• 1:40:37
  Always, what needs to be done, you know?
• 1:40:39
  Yeah, yeah. All right.
• 1:40:44
  So our before we get into that conversation, I'm, you know, I
• 1:40:50
  think we had a good conversation about what we're naming and it's
• 1:40:54
  Italy that felt like chaos to me.
• 1:40:57
  No, I felt like, I felt like we got actually some just some good
• 1:41:01
  history in there, like the middle.
• 1:41:03
  Action was, you know, all or something that's, that's all
• 1:41:05
  right about. Yeah, the history of wargaming,
• 1:41:09
  its connections to the opportunities.
• 1:41:11
  We've talked about, you know, some of the ideas that DT RPGs
• 1:41:15
  and wargaming have taken from each other and how we could see
• 1:41:20
  some things implemented and other things.
• 1:41:23
  You know, I do have one conversation question before we
• 1:41:26
  like those out. Mmm.
• 1:41:28
  Do like my strategy video games like ex-con.
• 1:41:33
  And Starcraft and Halo Wars. Do those count like war games or
• 1:41:38
  it's okay. It's dragging.
• 1:41:40
  The working strategy games. They're also like, total war is
• 1:41:44
  absolutely a 4X working, it has the word name battles and then
• 1:41:50
  it has the Forex strategy portion as the Overworld XCOM is
• 1:41:56
  little bit more focused ex-cons closer to D&D.
• 1:42:01
  All right. Yeah, I was usually X comes like
• 1:42:02
  fire movement ENT. Except with guns.
• 1:42:07
  Yeah. And Halo I mean Halo Wars is
• 1:42:11
  RTS. That is an RTS.
• 1:42:13
  This isn't that feels like it so yeah.
• 1:42:14
  Thing entirely like, yes. And no.
• 1:42:17
  Yeah, that's that's the kind of the problem with RTS is there.
• 1:42:20
  Like, I feel like their own vibe because they're kind of an
• 1:42:25
  evolution of War Games is what I would say.
• 1:42:28
  Yeah, sort of because they take that same, you know, Mechanical
• 1:42:35
  aspect, but then they throw in, you produce the units as you're
• 1:42:39
  playing, rather than you already have the army fielded at a deal.
• 1:42:44
  So it changes up the strategy element much like, you know, the
• 1:42:48
  total war game has the 4X portion of the game that affects
• 1:42:51
  how you filled your armies in the wargaming part.
• 1:42:55
  This is an evolution of it. Well, this has been the sessions
• 1:43:05
  potted, canceled podcast. I'm really sad that I have to
• 1:43:08
  catch my gas cans. Yeah, I'm really sad that Matt
• 1:43:12
  didn't do his orc bit for longer than three seconds.
• 1:43:15
  Do you need me to throw? You know what, that sounds like
• 1:43:19
  a skill issue. My guide all that he will come
• 1:43:23
  back to. It will do that for our 100th
• 1:43:26
  episode Special. There's a New York episode,
• 1:43:29
  There's an actual play that I can send you where they did like
• 1:43:32
  an orc special and not the not the unexpected reward everyone
• 1:43:37
  and it was the funniest shit because one of them was playing
• 1:43:40
  around but he's flying or Commando and they're basically
• 1:43:42
  Rambo and Commandos have this thing where they can basically
• 1:43:45
  teleport because like, you know, they're sneaky and he was like
• 1:43:49
  my character just sinks into the mud and pops up somewhere.
• 1:43:56
  There's one bit we're like Turns around and he sees the Commando
• 1:44:00
  there and he turns to the direction to look at the enemy
• 1:44:02
  and he's stabbing the dude in the back with a Jaffa, he's
• 1:44:05
  like, wait a minute, how did you get over there?
• 1:44:07
  So I say you definitely gotta run us through and an orc
• 1:44:12
  Warhammer Fantasy 1. John Dies at one time.
• 1:44:16
  Do they even want to do? They even have rules to play it
• 1:44:19
  works and that game. Yeah, they do.
• 1:44:21
  Yeah, Ork weird boys. There are special ability
• 1:44:25
  abilities called double jump and It's just a mass teleport
• 1:44:28
  ability you can do. And if you fuck up, you just
• 1:44:33
  might summon scar brand like hey goddamn because you have this
• 1:44:37
  thing where because you don't put Orcs mob warping the yeah.
• 1:44:40
  Like the more Orcs are the stronger.
• 1:44:42
  They like smarter and more. Psychically powerful.
• 1:44:45
  They are. So the more Orcs you have around
• 1:44:47
  you, the better your psychic abilities, get.
• 1:44:49
  But the more dangerous they become and then you can do
• 1:44:52
  something called cast Unbound, which makes it even stronger.
• 1:44:56
  So there is one bit it in the actual place where there's like
• 1:44:58
  30 Orcs around them and they like to jump all of them a
• 1:45:02
  stupid distance and yours like Cheese's, Hmm.
• 1:45:10
  Yeah, we're going to end it there before we go on another
• 1:45:13
  Little Engine That jump. Thank you matter will never
• 1:45:17
  work. Anyway this is the plug-in bit.
• 1:45:26
  This is where we plug ourselves. Follow us on Twitter.
• 1:45:30
  You know the hit the Subscribe button, hit the Bell subscript
• 1:45:34
  will book. No.
• 1:45:39
  This just in the Bell doesn't exist anymore.
• 1:45:43
  What, when you go to someone's Channel and click on settings?
• 1:45:53
  I hate that annoy. I genuinely is really bad
• 1:45:56
  because it turns it into a drop down menu.
• 1:45:57
  So it's this isn't an subscribe buttons.
• 1:45:59
  You have to hit the button. S it gives you a drop down menu
• 1:46:02
  and then you have to go and scroll down or all the way down
• 1:46:05
  the list, great, on my screen. That's okay, off Wilson Graphics
• 1:46:12
  design is my passion. It isn't.
• 1:46:14
  It's not however, I do know a few things about you I and
• 1:46:19
  literally mashing every button into existence into the same
• 1:46:22
  button is not a good idea, you are not a text editor, you are
• 1:46:26
  not OBS where things need to be compact because you're looking
• 1:46:31
  at a bunch of shit. Like, your YouTube, It's Channel
• 1:46:35
  page. You can have two buttons that it
• 1:46:37
  doesn't. It doesn't take that much
• 1:46:38
  actually. Six more to have the drop-down
• 1:46:41
  and it like on top of all the of the Wizards.
• 1:46:45
  Trauma on my YouTube timeline, the other shit.
• 1:46:48
  I'm getting his YouTube channel, can't stop.
• 1:46:52
  So yeah, hit the Subscribe button and then change your
• 1:46:54
  settings to get notified. You anytime we upload because
• 1:46:58
  that would be real. Cool.
• 1:46:59
  Awesome thing with your favorite podcast platform, whether it's,
• 1:47:03
  you know, Spotify, Apple pod. I don't know, I guess it was I
• 1:47:11
  was literally just throwing that out in the air.
• 1:47:13
  It was okay. They're very good at your
• 1:47:16
  platform of choice. Your yeah.
• 1:47:20
  Yeah. And you know just wonder if
• 1:47:22
  Twitter if you want to stay up to date.
• 1:47:24
  Yeah. It's where we post most of our
• 1:47:26
  updates less its 30 years in the future and Twitter's burned out
• 1:47:29
  in which case. Anyway, who's to say that is
• 1:47:33
  around 30 years in the future, I did jump a little far ahead,
• 1:47:36
  maybe I should have said, like five years.
• 1:47:39
  Next year, you know, goodbye. I am pressing the buttons, okay.