Latest / Ministry Minded / On the Nuances of Reformation History and Theology with Amy Mantravadi

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On the Nuances of Reformation History and Theology with Amy Mantravadi · Ministry Minded

• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us in our messy ministries.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right here in Pax Sinus, Pennsylvania.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I am so happy to be releasing this brand new episode on this feed.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for this conversation.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm joined by none other than Amy Montravati.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: She's a fellow writer with me over on 1517.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: She also is featured on Substack as well.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: All the links to that will be in the notes below.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure to check out her Substack.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: She is always writing something fresh and creative and pretty insightful.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely go check out her writings.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm so happy to have her on on today's episode because we get to talk about something that I love.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: she very much enjoys as well, which is Reformation era history and theology.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And don't let that sort of dissuade you or maybe worry you about where this conversation is going to go.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're going to think that this is incredibly boring or incredibly nerdy in particular, but
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I assure you, the topics that she and I get into today are so relevant and timely.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: that's one of the things that I have often found most true,
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: which is the more that I get into and read and wade through all of the nuances and
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: particulars of what led to the Protestant Reformation as we now know it,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: are continuingly
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: continually relevant even in today's era.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think many of the issues that were affecting the Church of Rome that were being
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: pointed out by Luther and others are issues that the Church of today is still
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: dealing with.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we get into that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: We get into,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: the nuance of history and how to do it well and how many times we often don't do it well.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: in terms of looking back and trying to understand all of these different movements
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: and all of these different events that take place that lead up to something as
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: formative as the Reformation itself.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we get into all that.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really fun episode.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was so glad to have Amy on and just talk to her.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: We get to talk about some of her writings,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: some upcoming books that she has being released through Reformation.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: 1517.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we get into all that a lot more,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: and we just have a really fun time talking about history and theology,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: things that I very much love to talk about.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you enjoy this episode, enjoy this conversation.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so just sit back and relax and enjoy as we get into all that and a lot more.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: But before we do that,
• 3:08
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• 3:10
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• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: and then we'll get into the conversation.
• 3:12
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• 3:14
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• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, Amy, for jumping on.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to talk with you,
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: only because I've been reading so many of your articles on 1517,
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: which I want to talk about.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you've really kind of carved out,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: this really awesome space for yourself on 1517,
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: where I feel like you're like...
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: a resident Reformation theologian, if I can say that, or historian.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know which one you want to prefer.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: But anyways,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: just introduce yourself,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: where you are,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: kind of your background,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe a little bit about how you got connected to 1517 and where this niche for
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Reformation history kind of
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of stuff.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: But anyways, do your best, and we'll go from there.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for not calling me the resonant weird lady who writes for 1517.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, definitely not.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'll take historian, even though I don't have the academic credentials.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'll take that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I first really got into Reformation history and theology about seven, eight years ago now.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I had grown up in the church,
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: so I sort of grew up in a broadly evangelical atmosphere,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: had some idea of what the Reformation was.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly, I remember learning about it in school.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: But the main thing that sticks out in my head that I remember is this textbook we
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: had at our school,
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: and they had this
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: this painting of Martin Luther that they have a little illustration of.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it's actually a painting from the 19th century when there was sort of this
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: rival interest in romanticizing of the Reformation.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: But he's sitting there at his desk looking very pensive with a Bible in front of him.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: And this is supposed to be dramatizing the moment that he's reading in Romans
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: chapter one that the just shall live by faith.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I realize now,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: looking back on it as an adult,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: that there are several things wrong with that painting.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Number one, it's in Erfurt, which is not where he had his Reformation breakthrough.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's several years too early.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: He had a beard in the painting, which he didn't really usually have.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, there are lots of things I now realize...
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: were incorrect about it.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting that for most people,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: the first idea they get about Luther is that he's nailing,
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: an illustration of him nailing the paper,
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, what Luther was, was this guy who would figure it out, we're saved by faith and not by works.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I had that idea for years and years.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, that's true.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: That is definitely a true summation of Luther's theology.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: But there's so much more than that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because the church I grew up in,
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: and very well-meaning,
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think they were preaching terrible or offensive heresy or anything.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: But I got the idea growing up in that church.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: that was coming out of what's usually called decision theology.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's this idea that, you know, you are making this choice to follow Christ.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: While that's certainly true in terms of how it appears from our perspective,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: there was not a lot of emphasis on God working to regenerate you,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: on God making it possible,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: giving you this faith.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Faith was a decision you were making.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: You would look at all the possibilities and rationally come to the decision that
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: you were going to put your faith in this.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not what Martin Luther taught at all.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: So as I had many,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: getting into young adulthood,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: having some issues with my assurance of salvation,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: which my church growing up had taught me that I had.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't want to say that they didn't.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: But I realized that I was always concerned that my faith was not genuine enough,
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: that it wasn't strong enough because I had doubts.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, well, did I really have faith all those years ago when I trusted in Christ?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I began to realize as I got into Luther's theology in my late 20s that actually
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: what he was teaching was something different based on the imputed righteousness of
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus Christ.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: I heard a lot about forgiveness of sins growing up,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: not as much about Christ giving his righteousness to us.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was more an idea that God could just write off your sins.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: He could forgive you just because you have this faith, so don't worry about those sins.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: They're just written off.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas Luther obviously did believe God forgives our sins and that we are not
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: having to build up any righteousness for that.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: But
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Luther did believe that perfect righteousness is a requirement to be justified before God.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: before anyone freaks out,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: the good news is that that perfect righteousness of Christ is being given to you.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's why this is good news.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, it would be terrible news if we had to have perfect righteousness.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: But the fact that Christ gives that to us, that's so critical to Luther's understanding of salvation.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that would become critical to all what we call the magisterial reformers,
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: people like John Calvin or...
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Even,
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think I would put Zwingli in there to a certain extent,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: and certainly later people like Thomas Cranmer and the Anglican Church or Theodore Beza,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: the people who put together the Heidelberg Catechism,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: and even later Baptists who put together the 1689 Confession,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: all have this same understanding of salvation,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: that it's something that is coming from outside yourself,
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: that faith is a gift,
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: that it is...
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: grace upon grace.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that you've taken that title for your sub stack,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: because I think that is the key biblical phrase for understanding the salvation we
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: have in Christ,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: that it's just the overflowing abundance of grace that never ends.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: So as opposed to this previous idea of grace that existed in the medieval church,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: that it's something you can receive,
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: but then if you commit a mortal sin,
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: oops,
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: you've been emptied of it and you have to get it back.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: And what I realized is that actually a lot of broadly evangelical theology in the
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: United States is not all that different from Roman Catholic theology that Luther
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: was so against.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because the idea is like you're in by faith, but now you need to be faithful.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: We hear that a lot, don't we?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: In by faith, and then you need to be faithful.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's this confusion.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: What this really is,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: is this a mixing of sanctification and justification,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: which is exactly what exists in the Roman Catholic Church.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: There isn't a stark division between those two things.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Luther's breakthrough was that there is a stark division between what justifies
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: you and then the sanctification that comes as part of the Christian life that's
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: made possible because of your justification.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's sort of a rambling answer, too.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: I got interested in that through—I actually had this job where I was having to
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: drive all over creation here,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: and I listened to a course,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: a college course in Reformation history.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: And, man, I tell you what, you cannot be too careful what you listen to because—
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: You might just find yourself getting a little obsessed with it.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I've now had this ongoing obsession for seven or eight years.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this obsession has turned into something to where now you're writing some books about it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're coming out later this year, right?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the first one is coming out November 12th of this year.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: The second one, November of 2025.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: And these are a couple of novels.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: that's the other thing that I oddly became obsessed with is writing novels,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: which,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: it sort of makes me a little unique in a way because...
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: There are lots of different people writing for 1517 and other Christian organizations,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: and everybody brings a little something different to the table.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: I love,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: at 1517 that we have people with backgrounds in music and people with backgrounds
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: in teaching at seminary or laypersons that are bringing their different experiences.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so the one kind of odd thing I do is I write novels.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I found this to be...
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: I really kind of got this inspiration from reading about the way that people like
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: George McDonald and C.S.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: Lewis had used fiction to... Even J.R.R.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: Tolkien did this,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: that they kind of,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: rather than writing theological tomes,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: they sort of presented things a little more subtly through the method of fiction.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And...
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: I read this book a few years ago by a professor named Justin Ariel Bailey, who's at Dort University.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: And he is very interested in apologetics.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: And he sort of plays on this concept C.S.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: Lewis has about baptized imaginations.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: This is what Lewis had said when he first read George McDonald's fiction.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: And he was an atheist at the time.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: And he said it was like his imagination itself had been baptized.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And the idea in that Professor Bailey has come up with is that actually this is
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: more of how we need to think about apologetics is in terms of getting people to
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: imagine what it would be like to exist within a Christian,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: within the Christian life.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: rather than simply trying to reach them through logical argumentation,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: which I'm not opposed to that at all.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very much in favor of traditional apologetics as something the church should do.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: But I think we all know there are also limitations to what can be accomplished
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: through traditional apologetics.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: So
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: I've worked on these two novels,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: which tell the story of the literary clash between Martin Luther and Desiderius
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Erasmus that happened in 1524 and 1525.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: And basically the situation was that by this point,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: Luther's gone through the whole thing about indulgences with nailing the 95 theses on the church door.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: He's been excommunicated.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: He's appeared before the emperor and made his famous statement,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: here I stand,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to recant.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: And at this point...
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: The pope and the emperor have pretty much done all they can because the pope has
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: communicated him and the emperor has allowed anyone within the empire to arrest
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Luther on the spot and execute him.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: So the only reason Luther is still alive is because his particular governor in Saxony,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: the elector Frederick the Wise,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: is allowing him to live.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: and not arresting him.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: And this gets down to the funny politics that existed in Germany at the time.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: But basically because of that,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: the Roman authorities were getting very frustrated because there's nothing they can
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: do about this heresy if the local governors aren't going to stamp it out.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: So this is when they turned to Erasmus, who really was...
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he had done a translation of ancient Greek and Roman literature.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: He'd done a very famous translation of the New Testament.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: He had put out satirical works.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: He was a commentator who was calling for reform in the church,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: but crucially,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: not reform in how the church understands salvation.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: And he really wasn't a theologian, not by trade.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know R.C.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Sproul says we're all theologians, but he wasn't a theologian by trade.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So nevertheless, because he was, other than Luther, the best-selling author of the day...
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: People like one or two different popes,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: King Henry VIII,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: the English king that most people remember because he had such terrible marital issues.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: They were all ready to erase and say, it's down to you.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: You have to write and tell everybody how terrible Luther's views are.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only thing that's going to keep him in check.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: And poor Erasmus didn't want to do this because he was always stuck between the
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: conservatives in the Roman church who didn't want any kind of reform and the people
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: who were now siding with Luther who wanted,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: a complete reform of doctrine.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: And Erasmus is here in the middle just kind of wanting a reform of behavior.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: And he's got both groups after him, and he's like, man, I don't want to write against Luther because...
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: That'll get all the Lutherans upset with me.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so he was in a tough position.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: But nevertheless, when King Henry VIII tells you to do something, you usually better do it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: So he writes this book and he decides that the issue that he's going to,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: take Luther to task for is whether or not human beings have free will,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: crucially free will in regard to salvation.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: And this is interesting because, of course, this gets back to what I was talking about earlier.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Do we make a logical decision between different options and choose that we want Christ?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: And what Luther was preaching,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: and what I believe is true,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: is that apart from the direct intervention of God to save a person,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: they're never going to choose Christ.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: They might seem to choose Christ, but
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: But what they're actually still doing is wanting to follow the law,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: wanting to build up their own righteousness.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: They're never going to choose what the gospel presents to them.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: But Erasmus was very much of the opinion that humanity could be better through education.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: And he thought if we tell people that nothing they do in life actually matters toward their salvation...
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: That it's all just down to whether God chooses them or not.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: He said, this is going to make society fall apart.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: People will have no reason to behave.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: And to be fair, at the time, there was a lot of bad behavior happening.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: And there were uprisings and revolts.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it seemed like society was kind of falling apart.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I understand his concern.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, I think it really...
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: His opinion that he puts forth in his book is, well, it's at odds with St.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Augustine.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's at odds with the Apostle Paul.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it took a while for Luther to write his reply because in the meantime,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: there was this massive peasant uprising in Germany that
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: in which some people think 100,000 people ended up dying.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was a big deal.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: And also, by the way, Luther got married in the middle of all that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot going on.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_03: But basically,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: I've written these two novels to kind of give the origin story behind how did those
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: books come about,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Erasmus' and Luther's books,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: what was going on at the time they wrote those books that influenced them in
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: writing them,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: But also another key thing I explore is just on a personal level,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: why were those two people led to two very different conclusions in regard to salvation?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: And oh,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: wait,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: there's a third person because the third main character of the novels is Philip Melanchthon.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: And Melanchthon is very interesting in this regard because he is Luther's associate,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: but he's a big fan of Erasmus.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: And when Melanchthon was very young,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: he was already so skilled at ancient languages that even though he'd never met him,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: Erasmus said,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: this kid,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: he's going to be the one to save Germany.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: He's so intelligent.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's going to save us all.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a pretty big weight to be carrying on your shoulders.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: And when Melanchthon moves to the University of Wittenberg, where Luther is teaching, he
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: he's gonna like much like myself get obsessed with reformation theology and that's
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: going to be a problem because now he doesn't want to do the work that erasmus would
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: have liked him to do you know just sort of recovering old documents and teaching us
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: all to have the virtues of the ancient greeks you know and he's going to be like
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: luther thinking that actually uh what the church teaches about salvation is pretty
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: important so
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: this throughout this whole process Melanchthon just is torn apart because he
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: doesn't want to lose either of these people and also he knows that a lot of the
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: people the scholars who initially uh flocked to Luther's teachings were people who
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: had been deeply influenced by Erasmus people like Zwingli was a big sort of
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: disciple of Erasmus also um
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: people like Johannes Oikolampadius,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: who isn't well known,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: but he was a major Swiss reformer,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: and he actually had worked with Erasmus on creating his Greek New Testament.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: So Erasmus just had all these people he had mentored,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: and a lot of them flocked to Luther,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: but they still had great respect for Erasmus.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: So Melanchthon's like, man, if Luther tears Erasmus to shreds,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: then all these people are going to want to desert us because they're going to say
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: you were so nasty to Erasmus.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: So it really,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: it's a story about the things that scare us,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: the places where we can find actual eternal comfort and salvation,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: and also the sovereignty of God over history because at this point in time,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: it wasn't looking like the Reformation was necessarily going to survive.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Things were pretty grim.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mentioned that big uprising that killed so many people.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: And they also had the Turks regularly invading from the east, threatening to possibly turn Europe Muslim.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is such a relevant story for us today because we also have people
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: losing faith in historic institutions and
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: We have rapid social change, particularly in how we understand sexuality and gender.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: And the last time we had this big of a change in terms of how we understand gender was in the 1500s.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: So...
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think even as I was writing,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: as I started writing these books,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: Russia invaded Ukraine,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: and it was coming just on the heels of the COVID pandemic.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: wow,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: so we've got war,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: pestilence,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: all we need is famine,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: and we'll have all the horsemen of the apocalypse.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that was how it felt to live during the Reformation.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: There was this constant feeling that the apocalypse was at hand.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you look at Americans right now,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: with this election coming up,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: we're treating it like it is the apocalypse at hand,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we do need to even think about God is so in control,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: not only of what happens in our lives,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: not only of history,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: but of our salvation.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: God is in control.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the comfort that we have.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because it really is all just a big chaos, and everything depends upon us doing the right thing.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's terrifying in a world like this one.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's such a good point, Amy.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's a long, rambling answer.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think it's a really good point, only because the Reformation, I think, is one of those...
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: time periods and movements that always gets reduced to,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: its most...
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: a big issue,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: salvation,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: the assurance of it through faith alone,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: but it also gets condensed to that,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: and I think unfairly and unnecessarily so,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: because just as you've laid out,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: as others have,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of...
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'll call them tectonic sort of shifts that are happening politically,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: religiously,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: all kinds of civilly within the terms of Europe and more broadly that make this
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: sort of indeed like a ripe time for a movement such as this coming out of the
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: medieval era,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: ushering into,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: like we're in this like sort of pre-enlightenment era.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of these things are kind of shifting and leading to this sort of moment
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: that kind of make it right for that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: which I think is really helpful to kind of keep all of these little strands
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: together because I think one of the things that I love talking about,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: and I'd love to hear your insight on this,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: is just I think oftentimes in historical literature,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: sort of failure on our part most of the time living in the 21st century is to just
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: stay within our historical,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: our 21st century mindset and look backwards without trying to keep history in its context.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were trying to help someone understand the Reformation,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Luther himself or perhaps other of his contemporaries,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: what would you say is like one of the things that we most often get wrong about
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: that era
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Either what precipitated it or kind of something that came out of it?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think a real temptation for us today,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: living in the 21st century,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: is to basically see the Reformation as a rebellion against big authoritarianism.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that Rome was a big authority,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: and this was,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: a little guy shaking his fist at the big authority.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you then,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: if you look at it from that perspective,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: you start to see Luther as this very modern person.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: And particularly when he appears before the Emperor Charles at the Diet of Worms in 1521,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: he's going to make this very interesting statement.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: He's going to say, my conscience is captive to the word of God.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why he can't recant his teachings.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: And people will look at this and say, oh, there you go.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: His conscience, you know, this is him speaking his truth.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: This is him not trusting what the authority is trying to tell him,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: but,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: knowing in his heart that this is the right thing.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's a complete misunderstanding of what Luther's saying, sadly.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: from the very beginning of Christianity, you have these individual and communal aspects, right?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: So the Bible and,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: Christian teaching recognizes the value of the individual and the agency of the
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: individual to,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: be able to have a
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: It also teaches that there's such a thing as original sin and the sinful nature.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: And because of that, even our reason is bound by this sinful nature that we have.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: So that without the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we are not all powerful individuals, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: We don't actually have complete agency.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're actually in bondage to sin and to the devil.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's how Luther would put it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: So what Luther was saying when he's talking about his conscience being captive to
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: the word of God,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: he was saying that he was judging the churches,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: the Roman churches teaching,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: not by what he felt was right,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: but by the word of God.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: The word of God is the norming norm.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: So even he was saying not that he accepted no authority,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: but that the authority he accepted was the word of God that had been written by the apostles,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: the original apostolic teaching of the church,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: and not what had been picked up over centuries and centuries.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that shows you that Luther was not a 21st century American capitalist individualist.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: I don't say that to say that,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: capitalism and individualism are always evil,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: but we live in an era of hyper individualism to the point that our epistemology,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: which is our how do we know what we know?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: How do we establish what the truth is?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: we have a very different idea of that than we had a few centuries ago.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, in Luther's day, he believed the truth was what was in the word of God.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously the word of God doesn't address every issue,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: but ultimately God is revealing what the truth is to you,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: both through his general revelation in creation and through his special revelation
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: in scripture.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: And then the Enlightenment,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: which you mentioned,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: comes along and basically says,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: what's true is what we can establish through experimentation and repeating results
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: and experiments.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's based on what's material.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: We're not going to recognize anything that's not material or, I guess, natural, you could say.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: So this is how you end up with Thomas Jefferson cutting out all the parts in his
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: Bible to have miracles or supernatural things in them.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: We are now in an era...
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: where we've moved on from the Enlightenment.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: And this is what people mean when they talk about a postmodern age.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a notion of truth which is based on subjective experience.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: So sometimes you'll hear this called subjectivism.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: I just finished reading Alistair MacIntyre's long book, After Virtue, and he calls it emotivism.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: That really what right now we're when we argue with people in 21st century society,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: we are not appealing to a moral authority because we don't have this.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: We all have our own moral authorities.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there are such authorities out there, but we don't have one central authority.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one person might look to an Instagram personality for their understanding of morality.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: Another might look at the church for morality.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: But this becomes a problem.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: When we are trying to establish what is the best thing for us to do as a country or
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: as a society,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: how do we know what's ethical?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't even have the same standard of truth to appeal to.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: And McIntyre says that with this term emotivism,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: what he means is that actually we're all just trying to appeal to each other on an
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: emotional level.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, for instance...
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right now,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: there's a debate going on in the UK about whether they should legalize euthanasia
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: for people with terminal diseases.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: This has already happened in Canada, Netherlands, Switzerland, other places.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I've talked to a lot of people who are in favor of that.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: And usually what they will say is that it's about people being able to make their own choice.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's about people being able to have dignity and comfort.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then if you say,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: but I think there's a greater purpose to human life beyond comfort,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: they'll say,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: why you're being awfully mean to these people who are suffering?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want them to suffer?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: and when it comes down to it,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: because they're actually,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: they don't have the same moral authority that I do when we're having that conversation.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: So what's going to end up happening is that they're going to try to appeal to me through emotion.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that's totally different than what Luther thought.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very different world we're living in now.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I think we make an error when we try to see the Reformation as a live your truth moment.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: It was a proclaim the truth moment, not a live your truth moment.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: because basically,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: not to be reductive,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: as I was just saying,
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: is a bad thing,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: but to be reductive in one way,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: like Luther's
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: impetus is the objectivity of our hope and assurance,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: which again speaks to,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: let me,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: we can talk about this too,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: like this idea of,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: like you were saying,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: subjectivism and how that is,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: it kind of plays into what you were also talking about earlier,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: this idea that hope is based on our decision-making and the idea that we're making
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: the right decisions and
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is very subjective depending on the one making the decision or the one
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: offering the so-called decision in front of someone,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: which again leads us back to the proclaimed word is always an unfolding of the
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: objective hope of Christ crucified,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: which again gets back to,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: you could say it gets back to Augustine,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: or as you mentioned,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: it gets back to Paul and leading from
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: that juncture forward,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: that's where we see the word of the cross as this truly objective word that is
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: being given to sinners as the locus of their hope,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: of their comfort,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: of their assurance.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's truly kind of
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: the way in which I think we're supposed to understand salvation,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: but then that's truly the way in which the church was turned upside down,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: for lack of a better way to phrase it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: It goes back to objectivity.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Which, again, I think speaks to...
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: It speaks again to what you were saying.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We want to apply this postmodern mindset to Luther,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: and not just Luther,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: but the rest of them,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: but Luther mainly,
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: and then see him to fit our mold,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: when really that's kind of impossible to do,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: as you just laid out.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of impossible to rewrite that era of history in order to fit whatever
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: argument we're trying to make,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: but we do that all the time,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: which is bad historical work on us.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: and it's very interesting because if you had been living in Germany in the 19th century,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: 1800s,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: you would have met the German nationalist Luther because that was right around the
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: time they were trying to bring around a unified German nation.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: And my husband and I were very fortunate to be able to visit Germany last summer.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: And we saw all kinds of statues of Martin Luther.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: And guess when almost all those statues were put up?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: in the 19th century.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: And they're being put up because they are looking at the fact that they're looking
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: back at the Diet of Worms and they're saying,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Luther was standing up for the German nation against those evil southerners in
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: Italy who were trying to tax us and tell us how to run our business.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: And if you even look at the speech that Luther makes at the Diet of Worms,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: he mentions the German nation,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: but that is kind of rare for him.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't emphasize the German nation much,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: partially because the understanding what the German nation was was so different then,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: but also because unlike some other reformers,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: like I think
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Zwingli here would be a good example, maybe Calvin and some others, certainly certain Anabaptist groups.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: They saw the Reformation as an opportunity to set up a kind of ideal society.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: And the degree to which they attempted to create this was very different.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't want to throw Calvin and Zwingli in the same pot with some people who
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: were like these doomsday cults,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: okay?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying it's the same thing.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: But they were going to focus a lot more on how...
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: This renewed doctrine, how should we live as a result of this?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: And the way they thought we should live is by having a better ordered society that was going to behave.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: And look, I have nothing against trying to make a better society.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's great.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: But Luther is always going to be sort of almost allergic to that idea.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because he thinks anytime we start talking about trying to create a perfect society,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: we're going back under the law very easily.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think Calvin ever wanted to put anybody under the law,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: but we know the law is a very slippery thing.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it comes and kind of, even when we're trying to avoid it, it has ways of sneaking back in, you know?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I do put a difference between people who are consistently preaching the law and
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: people who might have it sneak in on accident from time to time.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I understand that.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: But...
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Luther's greater fear,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: he was like,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm okay having,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: if maybe people behave a little worse,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: but they're getting the pure gospel from my sermons.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to start preaching all this law to them just to get them to behave,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: because then they might start thinking that they're actually saved through the law.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so some of the later Lutheran controversies end up being over this issue,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: because there was even some disagreement within the Lutheran movement,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: and certainly between the Lutheran and the Reform movements over this issue.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: But, yeah.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would say that that issue, that controversy, really speaks to today, only because that idea that
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: We have to change,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: that the church should change what it's preaching because we want to be like a
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: moral police officer for people's behavior.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of this really bad and faulty understanding of what sanctification is and
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: how it's supposed to be proclaimed.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Once again,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: through the objective word of the cross,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: that is where all of our hope of sanctification is derived out of.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Not, again, our faith.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know, fortitude and making right decisions.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: but again,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that comes back to like,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like you,
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think you mentioned a little bit ago,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: The modern evangelical movement,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: is mired in this idea that we can preach the gospel,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: but then that behavior that comes on the back end of that,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: that really has to be—we really have to be enforcing a certain standard.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of that, again, goes back to we want to make sure people are behaving rightly, which—
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: As you just demonstrated,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: but I think as many would agree,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at Luther,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: that's what he was trying to get away from.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Not that he wanted people to run rampant,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: but the pure,
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: unadulterated declaration of the gospel is what prevailed as opposed to making sure
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: people acted a certain way.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the inference is this, is that
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was just talking to someone else about this,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: and I think it's very applicable,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: is that our declaration of the gospel should be given in such a way that the Holy
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Spirit is then the one who is the one applying that message.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's, you know, getting into the nitty-gritty of preachers and application.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes that application scenario devolves into, you gotta, you better, or you ought to do this.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that gets into that behavior modification sort of mode,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: when in reality,
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: the best applicator of any message is the Spirit of Christ himself,
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: who is the one who applies.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Which,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: just gets to this idea that the objective message is declared,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: and God's Spirit is the one who makes that word not return void,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: as it says in Isaiah,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: not the eloquence or not the application ability.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: of a supposed preacher.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: But once again, I think this is not just a reformation problem.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely a modern problem within the church because we get all,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of the conversations about sanctification or,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think they always devolve onto here,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: decision-making and all that kind of stuff as you,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: as you kind of hinted at.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, this debate over what preaching is is as old as the church.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think if you look in some of the New Testament letters,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: you'll see little bits here and there,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: like where Paul's talking about how people had kind of broken into fan clubs,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: like the Apollos fan club and the Paul fan club.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, you know, this is the same.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: People have particular preachers they like.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: It is oh so easy to start believing that the skill of the preacher is what is going
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: to produce,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: is going to change people's minds.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: I would say,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: and every one of the Protestant reformers would agree with me,
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: that it's good to have a skillful preacher,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: like someone who can communicate well.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you have someone who is completely unable to communicate a concept,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: obviously that's not going to be helpful.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like Luther said when he was at the Wartburg Castle,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: he had this famous quote that basically said,
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: it was the word was doing all this work while he was there.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like it wasn't even necessary for him to be there.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: The word was doing all the work.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the Reformation brings about a big change in how the office of preaching is seen.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because throughout the medieval period in church history,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: and maybe even earlier,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: the Eucharist,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: the Mass,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: had been the center of corporate church life.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: That was where all the focus was to when God was going to make his appearance in
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: that bread and wine,
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: and you were going to receive grace from that.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a big fan of the Lord's Supper.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think we should be making a big deal out of it.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: But you will see occasional people, like Thomas Aquinas was a great preacher, known for his preaching.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: You'll see people like that in the medieval period.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: But the homily was sort of de-emphasized in a lot of cases,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: not least because a lot of priests weren't even literate.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: So that makes it a little difficult.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: But...
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's this renewed emphasis on preaching in the Reformation period,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: and probably one of the people who was most influential in this way was Zwingli in Zurich,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: because he came up with the idea that we should be preaching through the text of
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: the Bible,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: verse by verse.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: And this is now pretty dominant in a lot of churches,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: and I think it's a great way to ensure that you're preaching
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: everything in scripture and not just the easy parts.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: But there was also the sense that the office of preacher was a prophetic office.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you rightly proclaim the word of God in the scriptures,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: if you faithfully and rightfully are proclaiming that,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: that actually is an act of prophecy.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: We tend to think of prophecy as predicting the future.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so we say, well, there were prophets back in Old Testament times or New Testament times.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, unless you're Pentecostal, you say maybe there aren't any prophets today.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: I know a lot of Reformed brothers and sisters don't believe that people get the
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: gift of prophecy anymore,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: but at the same time,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: they believe there's prophecy happening every Sunday when the preacher is preaching
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: the word of God.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what prophecy has always been.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's why you see the prophets in scripture, they're always saying, thus saith the Lord.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: They're not speaking on their own initiative.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: As Peter says, they're speaking as they're carried along by the Holy Spirit.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's still true today.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's the same preaching office that we have in our church today.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that's something that you strive to faithfully execute in your church.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we should all be praying for our church.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: brothers and even his sisters who are doing that.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: But we should know at the same time that the word of God doesn't return void.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it's going to produce fruit.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's going to harden people.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's the really difficult thing to accept.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because in our understanding of church growth here in America in the 21st century,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: We want dynamic preaching and we expect if there's dynamic preaching,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: the church is going to grow and multiply and you're going to get lots of people and
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: you're going to have changed lives and you're going to be making disciples.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: What scripture actually says is sometimes when you preach the word of God,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: people are going to curse you and flee in the opposite direction.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: And think about what Jesus gave the bread of life discourse in John chapter six.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: And when he gets done, his followers are deserting him.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's only this core group that stays.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously he's the best.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: He's the perfect preacher.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: And he lost everything.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: most of his followers because he preached the word of God.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't think we could say there was any problem with Jesus's strategy.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't have a wrong understanding of church growth.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: His church growth strategy was,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to go and be brutally crucified and then give my righteousness to you.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to let the Holy Spirit do the work invisibly in a way that can only
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: be seen through eyes of faith.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it's going to be like the wind,
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: and you're not going to know which way it's going,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: but it's going to go everywhere.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: The gates of Hades aren't going to prevail against us.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not us making sure that hell doesn't prevail against us.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because I tell you what,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: I look at the church today,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: and as would have been the case in any period of church history that I'd looked at
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: the church,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: I would think,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: we are in terrible trouble.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: We're not going to last.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: I forget who it was who said the church is always one generation away from extinction.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: And from a human perspective, that's true.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: But from a divine perspective,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus objectively promised us it's going to last forever because I'm the one who's
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: going to make sure it lasts.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, man, that is a relief because if it was up to us to preserve the church, we would be in such trouble.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: As I realize, anytime I log on to social media or for that matter, anytime I go to my own local church.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I love my church.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: There are wonderful people there, but
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh darn it, they're just and sinners at the same time.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: Same as I am, both just and sinner.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: So whether you're looking at the big global church woman at your own church,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: we just have to remind ourselves that
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: When the preacher's preaching,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: it's the Holy Spirit doing the work and he'll bring about whatever God intends.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you can just trust in that.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_03: And even if you finish a sermon and half the people come up and complain and say, how dare you?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't necessarily mean you did anything wrong.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: It might.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you should probably go back and make sure you didn't take a very wrong turn somewhere.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: But there are some biblical truths that could be proclaimed in American churches
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: today that would make a lot of people get up and walk out.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think what you're speaking to
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: is kind of,
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: once again,
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: just to go back to Luther,
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: is just that idea of a theology of glory versus a theology of the cross.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: This idea of the tenuousness of God's word of promise from our perspective is often how
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: God's word of promise is continually unfolding.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: This really speaks to me only because,
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: as you're talking about history and all that kind of stuff,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: especially for me right now,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm studying Genesis,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm studying Genesis 28,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: where...
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: You have that really famous scene of Jacob and his infamous ladder that he dreams about.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: But just thinking about the context of that scene has really helped me only because
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: you have this dream that happens where he sees angels and that he hears the voice
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: of the Lord.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he sees the Lord speaking to him,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: delivering him a word of promise,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: which I think is so fascinating just in terms of that.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: juncture in jacob's life where it comes about where he's been he's stolen the
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: blessing from his dad and his brother essentially and yet it's been confirmed by
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: his dad and so now he has this title associated with him which is god ordained if
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: you you know look at the earlier parts of that narrative but regardless he has this
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: title everything seems to be setting up for him to
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: the things that go along with that.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yet now he's on the run and now he's in exile where he's going to,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: eventually spend 20 odd years away from home,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: away from his family.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: He'll never see his mom again.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: All of those things that happen within Jacob's life occur after he's been given
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: this blessing of the firstborn,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: which again speaks to
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just the unpredictability of life as we perceive it,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: but also just how tenuous,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: the Tolkien phrase,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: everything stands upon the edge of a knife.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: And for Jacob, but I would say for all of us, that's kind of so...
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: Apropos,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: it's so just fitting of where we find ourselves,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: where there's not a lot of certainty,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: except for Genesis 28,
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: God's word of promise,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: which is certain,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: which is true,
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: which is definitive,
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: as God gives him this promise where he's basically saying,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: don't worry,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be with you.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be with you, in fact, no matter wherever you go.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to keep you.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to preserve you, which just, again, is just a pure gospel moment.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for us,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's exactly as we've been talking about.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: It looks hairy.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: It looks murky.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: It looks tenuous.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: But the word of promise is the objective, solidifying reality that we have to cling to by faith.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what an enormous hope that is.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, I didn't mean to preach to you, but that's just what I've been— Oh, no, please do.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Please do.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's, again, I think we're—
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Again,
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: that's the message that I think is the one that most aids the discipleship or even
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: our experience of the Christian life,
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: whatever term you want to apply there,
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: is that.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not rational,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: amazing decisions all the time,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: but taking steps of faith,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: even though that next one seems really tenuous and seems really uncertain.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: if you ever need to be convinced that the fulfillment of God's promises does not
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: depend on us making all the right decisions,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: then go read the book of Genesis.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: When you'll find,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: these characters that,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: in Hebrews chapter 11 are held up as great examples of faith.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: But man, if you read their stories in Genesis, you're like...
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: the one thing that Abraham ever really does right,
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: you could say,
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: is he believes what God says.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's the thing that Paul says.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: He believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: So Abraham isn't righteous in and of himself, right?
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: But basically,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: God comes to him and makes this covenant with him and gives these promises to him,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: and he believes that God's telling the truth and that it's going to happen.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: Now, after that, he subsequently doubts it and has lots of bad moments, but...
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the most dramatic moment,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: is when God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac,
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: which is what Dr.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: Stephen Paulson calls attacking the promise.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: he's basically,
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: if Abraham does this by according to human reason,
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: it would make God a liar because God has said,
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_03: your descendants are going to be through Isaac.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: So if he kills Isaac,
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: not only is it God telling him to commit murder,
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: which we know is not in line with God's character,
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: but this would be the death of the promise that God has made.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: It would be the end of Abraham's faith in God.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where, again, I'm so glad we have the book of Hebrews.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_03: The book of Hebrews is the interpretive key for the stories of the patriarchs.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: and whoever believe you wrote it,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: Paul,
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: Luke,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_03: Apollos,
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: Priscilla,
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: whoever,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: tells us that the way Abraham figured this out was he said,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: God must be able to raise the dead.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only answer.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because if God's telling me, he tells me I need to kill Isaac.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_03: But he also tells me I'm going to have descendants through Isaac,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_03: so it must be he's going to raise them from the dead.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: Now, God had never told Abraham about resurrection.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: He'd never seen someone be resurrected.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: He just said, this must be true.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, that's out of the box thinking.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so he's going to go ahead with this.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: And, of course, the way it turns out, it's all a test and God gives the replacement.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: But ultimately, what is that pointing forward to?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's pointing forward to Christ.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: Christ comes to earth.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: We have these promises of this great kingdom that's going to last forever.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: These promises of salvation.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then what happens?
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: The promise is basically killed because Christ is crucified.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: the kingdom hasn't been initiated that anyone can see, it's dead.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: And our faith is dead at that point.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: But what happens then?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: God raises the dead.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the key that,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: Luther's going to focus so much on,
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: the cross being our theology.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's perfect.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: The only tweak I would make for it for myself is the cross and the empty tomb are
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_03: our theology because the empty tomb gives meaning to the cross,
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: Without the empty tomb, the cross is a monstrosity.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's the death of the promise.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's God is a liar.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: God is a sadist.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: He's an abusive father.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: He's all those things you will hear people say about how terrible God was to send his son to the cross.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: That would all be true if it wasn't for the resurrection.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: The resurrection is the complete paradigm shift.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: That is how now the cross all of a sudden becomes our theology, right?
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_03: because of the resurrection.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously Luther was, that's what he thought when he said the cross is our theology.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: But in case anyone would be confused, I think those two things have to go together.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: Faith can look,
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: it can stand there after Christ has just been killed on the cross and say,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: somehow God is still going to deliver on this promise.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: And he did.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why we can look back at that and say, you know,
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: How do we know God's going to keep his promise to us?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because he already kept his promise to raise Christ from the dead.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that was the deal.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: Christ sacrificed himself under the understanding he was going to be,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: he would be called back to life in three days.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_03: And he was.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: So because that has happened,
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: we now,
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: we're,
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_03: we obviously,
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: we're believing in something we can't see,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: but we do have something objective that has happened.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just a—it's a promise connected with something objective that has happened in history.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's how Christianity is so different from a lot of religions.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of religions are talking about some kind of salvation that exists in another dimension somewhere.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is something that's happened in human history, in human flesh.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: He's uniting himself with us in our experience here.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_03: In the physical world, this has happened.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_03: Physical blood has been shed, just like it was in the Old Testament.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: Abraham's covenant was cut in blood, and so is the new covenant.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I am really grateful for that,
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: because if you believe your salvation is,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: God really likes me right now because I've been doing pretty well lately,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: Or, I think my faith's pretty strong, so it's probably strong enough.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: Luther, whenever someone's having trouble with assurance, he's going to ask them if they're baptized.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: And, of course, that's tied in somewhat with a Lutheran understanding of baptism.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: But what can we say?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: What does baptism symbolize?
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_03: Death and resurrection.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's proclaiming the gospel to you by...
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: signifying the death and resurrection of Christ.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: You're being joined to that.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: We know that from scripture.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_03: When you become a Christian by faith, you are joined to these objective events that have happened.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that's how you objectively are going to be risen in your body.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a big thing because our society also has this kind of weird anti-physicalism,
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: like I'm going to go and be a disembodied spirit.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_03: No, your body is going to be risen.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: And man, I tell you what, I have watched both my grandmother and my aunt, both of them had ALS.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_03: And ALS, by the time it's done with you, leaves you skin and bones.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_03: Unable to do your own talking, eating, peeing.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_03: How important was it to me when I was standing by their graves that those bodies
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_03: are going to be resurrected?
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just enough for them to be resurrected as disembodied, floaty things.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: their bodies that, you know, it gets back to that dying with dignity.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: None of us die with dignity in this life.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: The dignity comes and that we're going to be resurrected.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we need to like give an altar call or something.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like something like that.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's, let's shift gears a little bit because I wanted to hear this because, um,
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're not in vocational ministry, and yet you're writing for 1517.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: And as we were talking about earlier,
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: off recording,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: but neither are you Lutheran,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: and neither am I,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: and yet we're writing for this Lutheran parachurch organization.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me how you got kind of wrangled into that,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: but then also just kind of tease out a little bit about why you are—
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: are so passionate,
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: not just about this era of history,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: coming alongside the mission of 1517 and,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: and that mission of,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: declaring Christ for,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: for you.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, one thing I can tell you about 1517 is that the gospel message is central for them so much.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_03: So if I submit an article that says,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: I thought I was a complete solid gospel person, which I think I was.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: But some of the first things I turned into them, they're like,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: this could seem a little like the law to some people.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_03: We need to tweak this.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like,
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: I never thought I of all people would get dinged for that because this,
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so like,
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_03: we're saved only by grace.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_03: And of course they,
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: they knew that that's what I believe,
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_03: but it,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: part of that's about learning to speak in the language of another denomination.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_03: This is something I found first when a previous organization I wrote for was mainly
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_03: Reformed Christians,
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_03: and they have their own language.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_03: Lutherans have a different language.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_03: So learning to speak the language is key because some things that will sound right
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_03: to me were a certain way.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: To them, those same words can sort of mean something else.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: And this is true whenever you're, I mean, it's really cross-cultural communication is what it is.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think the way you and I can write for a primarily Lutheran organization,
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_03: we should say it's not,
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: you don't have to be a Lutheran to write for this organization.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: But the reason we can write for this organization is because we see justification by grace through faith
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: being accounted righteous for Christ's sake alone, we see that that's the main thing.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_03: And we want to keep it the main thing.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: even among people who belong to denominations that are descended from the Reformation,
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes other things can become the main thing.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you and I would say that even though we may disagree with Lutherans on
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_03: certain things,
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_03: that those are,
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: while important issues,
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: issues,
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_03: many of them that people sacrifice a great deal for in previous historical periods,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: we are prepared to nevertheless join together in pursuit of what is the highest calling,
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_03: which is proclaiming the gospel.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_03: Again, like I said, not everyone agrees with that.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes whether or not you agree with that can start to reveal something
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_03: about your doctrinal priorities,
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_03: which can actually reveal something about how you actually think about salvation.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because if what you think is, oh, I don't know about those Lutherans because...
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: They basically tell people that they're just saved for Christ's sake.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: So now, you know, you don't have to get terrified every time you sin.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that sounds kind of dangerous.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_03: They sound like dangerous people.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_03: If someone tells me that,
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_03: I say,
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: that tells me a little something about what you think about the difference between
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: the law and the gospel.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_03: You might be sneaking a little of the law back in.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_03: Luther thought we need to preach the law.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_03: He did.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_03: He never said we shouldn't preach the law.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: There were some people in his movement,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: Johannes Agricola,
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: a student of his,
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: who there was this big controversy because he basically was,
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_03: he was an early Andy Stanley.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_03: He thought we should unhitch from the Old Testament.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_03: And we shouldn't, you know, there's no purpose at all for the law in the life of the church.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know...
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_03: We could even debate, was that exactly Agricola's view?
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_03: At first,
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: Luther thought Agricola was okay,
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_03: that he was just preaching the same thing that Luther had been preaching.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: But then over time, he's like, eh, not sure.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: We do need to preach the law because we can make an incorrect assumption that
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: everyone who comes to church on Sunday mornings is actually a genuine believer and
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_03: Christ follower,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_03: which we know is not the case.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_03: And even... I know you're the pastor of a Baptist church, and the church I go to is basically Baptist.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's this...
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_03: not wanting to baptize people who aren't genuine professing believers.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_03: But I think even you would say that your church,
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_03: you probably have some,
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_03: you can't rule out the possibility that you might have someone in a pew one day
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: who's not,
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_03: who though they think they have,
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_03: have not actually been captured by the gospel,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_03: which is why you keep preaching the gospel in part.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_03: But it's also why you need to preach a lot because without preaching,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_03: So this would be preaching only the gospel without the law would almost be
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_03: equivalent to preaching only the resurrection without the cross.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because the cross reveals that we are sinners who need someone to do that for us.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: And...
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: I was at a recent 1517 conference in northwest Arkansas,
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_03: and one of the guys who gave a talk there was Jacob Smith,
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_03: his pastor at Calvary St.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_03: George's in New York City.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_03: He told this little anecdote that their church had put on their sign out front,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: you get those little black letters that you can arrange.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_03: And they had put, enjoy your forgiveness.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_03: That was their message for the week.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_03: And he was out walking his dog in plain clothes, not with his Victor's collar out and everything.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_03: And he heard a couple people who saw the sign and were talking about it.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_03: And one of them said, oh, that's so nice.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_03: Enjoy your forgiveness.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_03: And the other person said, I don't need to be forgiven for anything.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's terrible that they would think I need forgiveness.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_03: And this is what can happen without the preaching of the law,
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_03: is that you don't think you need the gospel.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_03: So Luther definitely believed that when you preach the law,
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_03: you have to immediately also preach the gospel.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_03: If you preach the law without the gospel...
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's legalism.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's just the purpose of the law.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_03: There is a holy despair that we come to when we realize we cannot earn our salvation,
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_03: that we need someone else to help us.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_03: But we need to immediately pivot from that despair.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_03: We don't leave people in that despair.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_03: So getting that law-gospel balance correct is important and incredibly difficult.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, I think through the Spirit, it's possible.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's possible because if we keep preaching everything that's in Scripture,
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to get it right because it's all laid out there for us.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, before we wrap up, Amy, just kind of tell me what else you're working on.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know we can expect your books this year and then next year.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: But what else are you working on and where can people find you?
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I do have a page on Substack, like every good writer now.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_03: I have a Substack.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_03: some friends of mine even have multiple sub stacks and,
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_03: the more,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: the more,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: the merrier.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_03: So you can find me there at amymontravati.substack.com.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_03: The name of my sub stack is sub creations, which is a little play on Tolkien.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_03: Cause he had this concept that we're all sub creators,
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_03: which is like,
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_03: God is the creator and we're just sub creators.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_03: But then because it's sub stack, it becomes self creations.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then I do regularly contribute to 1517.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm contributing, as I have time, to some other organizations as well.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_03: I should have a couple articles coming out for Credo Magazine,
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_03: which is an initiative of Midwest Baptist Theological Seminary that's very into
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_03: historic theology.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I should have one coming out for Modern Reformation.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_03: So a few things like that.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't have any other books in the works because I don't,
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_03: let your words be few,
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think is a good thing for me too.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_03: As you can see, I can give plenty of words.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_03: I like to joke that I sneeze and 10,000 words come out.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that's not my problem.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_03: But I also know that we need to think about which words are necessary, which words are helpful.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_03: which is why I often don't share my opinions on politics and other things because
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_03: not because I don't think there's a place for that,
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_03: but I don't think that's what God's called me to do right now.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll see.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_03: there may be in the future,
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_03: there will be more books,
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_03: but for right now,
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_03: I spend a lot of time caring for my four-year-old son who has some special needs.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_03: So, uh,
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that about keeps me very busy, everything I've already described.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds very busy.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_03: And just don't ask what my house looks like.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_03: Don't ask because, yeah, it's a good thing I'm saved by grace.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's all I'm going to say.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, well, I'm so glad to...
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: just ramble about all this with you.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's been so fun and I'm looking forward to reading,
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: reading your stuff,
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: reading your books,
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: and I'll make sure to link all that in the notes.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I, I love reading your stuff.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_03: Now you like me have a lot of words,
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_03: so keeping up with them all can sometimes be difficult,
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_03: but you know,
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_03: your book finding God in the darkness was so helpful.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of a few different books that have come out in the past year or two
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_03: that sort of focus on,
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_03: men christian men writing about issues of mental health and i think that's so
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_03: important because you don't always hear men talking about it as much and i actually
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_03: think right now we have more of a problem men have a lot more trouble getting help
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_03: for difficulties like that so i was very grateful for that great grateful to see
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_03: the good feedback it's received
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for saying that.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was really thrilled,
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: and I've been really just kind of tickled whenever I hear little stories that come
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: through or come my way about just people being encouraged by it.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to sound corny or cliche,
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: but that's truly the success that I wanted,
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_01: was just people reading this and drawing closer to the Lord through it,
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: not anything else.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, thank you very much for saying that.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_01: But again, Amy, thank you.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll have to do this again.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: This was fun.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Good talking to you.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Amy.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you have been blessed by this episode of the Ministry-Minded Podcast.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_01: As always, subscribe on Apple or on Spotify or make sure to follow me right here on Substack.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for all of your encouragement, for your support.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_01: You are why I do this.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love to...
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Put out helpful resources that help you as you are engaging in your walk with the Lord,
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: as you are being discipled,
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_01: either in your church context or perhaps wherever you might be.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to see that the grace of the Lord is for you and that the gospel is for you as well.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just another way that I get to do that.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you've been blessed.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you've been encouraged.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I will see you on the next episode.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Blessings.