Latest / Inner Alchemy with George Stuby – Trauma, Music and Plant Medicine / E 19 - Bushwacka!: From Numbing the Pain to Being Truly Seen

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E 19 - Bushwacka!: From Numbing the Pain to Being Truly Seen · Inner Alchemy with George Stuby – Trauma, Music and Plant Medicine

• George: Yeah, I'm super excited to be here today for this new podcast episode with my guest, Matthew Benjamin, better known as Bushwacker. And as one half of Leo and Bushwacker, he scored the top ten hit Love Story, and he held residencies at the end and space in Ibiza and was really yeah, all over the map of electronic music. And also on his own, he was super, super prolific and For example, we mixed Deep Hode and released music on labels such as Defected and Records. And Records is the label of Radio Slave, who was a guest a few episodes ago here on this podcast. Matthew: Hmm George: And he's not only a musician, he's also a psycho psychotherapeutic counselor trained in transactional analysis and compassionate inquiry, which is the approach of Gabo Mate, and which I'm really excited about because I'm also trained in that one. So Curious if that comes up in the episode. And Matthew also co founded Listen Up Therapy and created workshops that bring music and therapy together. Yeah, welcome to this episode, Matthew. Matthew: Thanks George, thanks lot for inviting me. It's a pleasure to meet you and be with you here. George: Mm, likewise. Yeah, and maybe we start at at the at the end of the little bio that I read, like that you combine music and therapy in workshops, for example. Could you tell us a bit more about that? Matthew: can actually because that was in fact what was taking up all my attention before we started this George: yeah, okay. Matthew: podcast. I've always been passionate about how sound and frequency and vibration makes me feel, makes us feel and George: Mm. Matthew: with me my relationship to music is very much about the feeling. I'm less of a lyrics person, I'm more of a sounds person. I've started to understand a little bit more as time's gone on that the healing properties or the properties of sound, frequency and vibration do a lot more than just excite us, make us curious, annoy us and that actually there are ways to use these sounds outside of the dance floor environment or outside of a concert or music environment to enhance our experiences in terms of some of our own self-development. And so that's something that I've been playing with and working on for quite a long time now, for several years. And I started a company called Audio Intention six years ago, which is really about that. It's about creating, liberating beliefs from our self-limiting beliefs through a workshop, through kind of a therapy session, an exploration session with the client and then combining the positive affirmations with binaural beats with some specific frequencies and creating an experience where we are hearing the affirmations that we've created in that one-to-one session but also our brain entrainment is kicking in with some of the binaural George: Mm. Matthew: beats and seeing how George: Amazing. Matthew: and how that can help people to grow, to develop and where it can take them. George: Wow, amazing. And you use the the terms binoal beats and brain entrainment and maybe some people don't know yet what it is. Could you explain that a bit? Matthew: Sure. So brain entrainment really means that you are in a way tricking your brain into reaching a certain state. with George: Yeah. Matthew: binaural beats, there are different waves. are alpha waves, are theta waves, there are delta waves, there are gamma waves. And for some people listening to these binaural beats that then create this headspace, this brain state, can George: Yeah. Matthew: open them up in different ways. It's George: Mm. Matthew: quite subjective, it's quite varied. Some people don't really notice anything much with it, some people do. So it does depend on the person, on the frequency George: Yeah. Matthew: that they're already vibrating at and various factors. But I experimented with these, with binaural beats, a long time ago. in 2015 actually is the first time. An acquaintance of mine that I met in Thailand sent me these meditations that he'd bought from a George: Uh-huh. Matthew: company and they included the binaural beats. George: Mm. Matthew: In my daily practices I really started to notice that I was becoming more focused, more clear, more open. than I was without them. And so in the back of my mind, I've always wanted to work and develop with this a little bit more. George: So cool. I really love that. And yeah, it's it's really powerful stuff. Matthew: So how they work is there's two frequencies that are playing at the same time. Binaural beats only work in headphones. it's George: Yeah, left and right, right? Yeah. Matthew: left and right. And it's the difference between the frequency of the left ear and the frequency of the right ear that creates this pseudo state, the alpha state, the theta state, the delta state. George: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matthew: And so you can create that with these different frequencies and the George: Mm. Matthew: spacing in between. George: I love that. So yeah. The and the entrainment was would be basically that our brain follows what it hears, right? And that when we are Matthew: Mm-hmm. George: listening to this binoal beats that for example are matched to like the the frequency, the alpha frequency of our brain, then our brain follows that and For example, alpha, a lot of people would say it's a it's an open state, it's a meditative state state, it's slightly going inwards flow. so yeah, definitely a good state to be Matthew: Exactly, George: in, right? Matthew: it is and it's a really interesting space because Not everybody is susceptible, not everybody picks up in different ways, but the process that I have been working on isn't just about listening to binaural beats, they're just part of the process. Really, it's about the one-to-one experience and the understanding between myself and yourself as to where you want to get to or what's getting in the way, what your blockages are, what beliefs you're holding about yourself that are holding you back or that... might be getting in the way and how we can make sense of where they may originate from and what stories we're telling ourselves about ourselves or others or the world George: Yeah. Matthew: and how we can then challenge that. George: Mm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And yeah, when I reflect on my own journey, then I then I know for me getting introduced to modalities that work with the body and the nervous system and that are also understanding what trauma is, made like the the biggest, biggest difference for me. And I did many things before and they were great and that I see them almost as a warm-up now to to like this really visceral work. and the more I've done that work and the more I really let's say metabolized like a lot of unprocessed trauma. the more something like binaural beats also had an effect on me because I removed, as you said, the blockages that maybe held me from really connecting with the present moment, from really connecting with my body, because there was so much scary stuff there that my system didn't want to go there and and and blocked a lot of things. Matthew: And, you know, those blockages, as you know, you know, sometimes we're just not aware of them or sometimes they don't really show up in our lives in a way that makes us feel like we need to do too much about them. And a lot of people just carry on through life without necessarily even trying to address any of these things. what George: Yeah. Matthew: this really is in the context of audio intention, it's, I wouldn't call it a magic bullet, but the bespoke experience and the personal experience of creating your positive affirmations with somebody that's George: Mm. Matthew: taking you through a process and then turning that into your own recording is very different to say going on to one of the apps that you can download at the moment and already have pre-recorded meditations, positive affirmations, whatever, which are great, they are... not based on your own personal experience and on the George: Yeah. Matthew: workshop that you've created with somebody to get to what it means for you and what this is all about for you. And George: Mm. Matthew: so, yeah, it's a passion project, but it's something that I am very passionate about. And interestingly, when I started doing this and putting it together in its original format and still now, it is in a one-to-one workshop or in a group workshop where I've George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: facilitated retreats or sessions in different places with a person or people to create this. But what I'm working on at the moment is also being able to do this through a program that will facilitate people having that experience without having to be in that workshop or in that retreat. George: Well Matthew: I wanted to create this five years ago, but the technology wasn't ready yet. And I think it is now. So I've gone down this rabbit hole at the moment of all that. George: That's exciting. Matthew: How can I actually make this something that people can use that gives them an experience, personal experience, but they can do it from their own computer. George: Amazing. Well I'm really excited to to experience that. when it's ready. Matthew: Well, it's keeping me out of trouble. George: Wonderful. And I want to pick up on something from I want to pick up something I heard from you like a few sentences ago and you said something like that you know, a lot of people maybe don't even con confront some of their blockages because it's not coming up in their lives so there's no need. and you of obviously confronted those blockages also like through the education that you did in in like different therapy approaches. So I'm really curious to ask you, Matthew, like How did that happen? when did you feel like there's something that I want to confront or there's something that I want to have a deeper look into? Maybe a blog or something you struggled with. Like can you talk a bit more about that? Matthew: Yeah, I can and I can't even really refer to it in past tense because the struggle is still there and George: Okay. Matthew: the story still come up and the blockages can still get in the way. So, you know, it's constant maintenance really in many George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: ways but I already had experience of being in therapy. I was in therapy when I was living in London for many years and I found George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: it incredibly beneficial. and George: Yeah. Matthew: a very important and strong relationship with my therapist over many years actually. And you know, it really helped me in many ways to get into a better place. And I was struggling on and off with addictions through George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: the music industry and through, you know, partying and whatever that George: Yeah. Matthew: we can talk about a little bit. My experience with the therapy and my therapist also felt like this was that, the therapy is really important, but it's not enough to keep you clean and sober to only do this. needs to be George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: some parallel processes going on here. And so, when I was struggling with these things and I was in and out of 12 step meetings and the 12 step program George: Mm. Matthew: of CAAA and so doing both of those things really helped me a lot. But long story short is in 2015 when I had been really struggling, I was probably at my lowest point, I took George: Hmm. Matthew: myself out of the loop for the first time. Everything else that I tried in terms of sobriety had been going to meetings or... doing the therapy, but I'd never taken myself out of the loop of the environment that I was in for long enough, really. So I went to, well, the party, the party scene and the temptation George: Mm. So the the electronic music environment or the party's meetings. Yeah. Matthew: and the kind of loop that I was stuck in. So I George: Mm. Matthew: went to a rehab center in Asia that had been recommended to me by a friend. And while I was there, there were lots of different activities going on. So there was one-to-one therapy, was group therapy, was yoga nijas, were meditations, there were all sorts of things. But George: Wow, cool. Matthew: the more time I spent there, after the dust had settled, so to speak, and especially the period after I had been there, I was so curious about why we are the way we are and why George: Yeah. Matthew: we behave the way we behave and do the things we do. very, very interested in the psychology of it all. George: Yeah. Matthew: And so I started looking at psychology courses online about a year later. And I saw lots and lots of different options, lots of online courses, and I'd get to the end of each day and almost press pay on one of these courses. And then I was like, I'm not sure if this is the right one. And I felt eventually that psychology was too broad. It was a gateway to perhaps learning something else, but I wasn't really sure what I was going to do with that really. then a friend told me that they'd just finished the psychotherapy degree in London, the transactional analysis at an institute there. And I looked into that and flew over for the weekend to do their introductory weekend training, which you have to do before you can even to be on the course and I remember the first day of the weekend like I got to lunchtime and I went off on my own to get some food and I felt like my brain was the most alive it had been in years and years and years and like I felt so invigorated and excited and George: Hmm. Matthew: curious and inspired and I knew at that moment this is what I need to do you know this is George: Yeah. Well real real calling, you could say. Matthew: Yeah, this is the stimulation and the direction. George: Yeah. Matthew: And so I ended up signing up for that course. And that's really how I ended up doing this, I think, was through my own personal battles. And I'm sure you've heard often people that work in therapy or those kind of vocations talk about the wounded healers and often their route to becoming a therapist is through their own difficulties and their own battles. And, I feel the same. George: Yeah. Totally, yeah. And there's yeah the theme of the the wounded healer is like it's a really interesting one and like historically I maybe heard it more as a judgment or as like a joke of like also of people who would say, yeah, like people who study psychology study psychology because of their own stuff. and then Gabor Mate talks about it a bit differently and says, there there is no healer that is not a wounded healer. It's always our own pain that also draws draws us into that kind of profession. another DJ colleague of us, so to speak, Ben, Ben Rao. he also did like a lot of therapy and is like yeah I had a really deep journey with that and and he often shared with me that that his therapist used to say Mr. Rao, there are no coincidences And and he told me that when we talked more about my path in electronic music and in orthotherapy and and doing really, really deep deep trauma educations and on that path also like encountering a lot of trauma that I had totally suppressed before and saying there are no coincidences like And in that sense you want to say like, yeah, George, you also studied this because it helped you to process your own stuff. And then through that you then can of course guide the people you work with even deeper because you went really, really deep. So that's that's also what I hear in in your sharing. Matthew: One thing that I felt at times when I was in therapy before I trained was that at times... my therapist wouldn't be able to understand what I was experiencing necessarily or going through in terms of the substances or the partying and that, you know, maybe George: Yeah. Matthew: there's a broad idea, but that it was very difficult to comprehend that there's a level of understanding there. And I found that quite a few people, particularly within the music industry that are either referred to me or come to me, might already have had therapy or be in therapy but feel George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: that they want to talk to somebody that really understands about, addiction or depression that's connected to working in the music industry or George: Yeah. Matthew: various presenting issues like that and so that's often George: Mm. Matthew: why people come. George: That makes a lot of sense to me. And I I'm really curious to ask you what what you see as sp the specific, let's say, challenges in the music industry. And and before that, I would like to ask you if you want to talk about that, like you know, in the light of Gabo Mate saying that when when we talk about addictions, a not helpful question is like to ask why the addiction. And the real question, the helpful question to ask is why the pain underneath it? Would you like to share a bit like what what you encountered in in that process? Matthew: Well, think actually if my memory serves me correctly, it's not why the pain, but what is the pain. What is the pain that you're trying to medicate, And so understanding that the substance is the solution for people. George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: It's their way of dissociating, numbing out, changing the way they feel. George: Yeah, coping, yeah. Yeah. Matthew: And so really it's... being able to understand what the pain is that they're trying to dissociate from or numb. George: Yeah. And and do you want to share a bit what that's for you what that was for you or is for you personally? Matthew: Well, I think it's probably... very much related to social anxiety, to fitting in to self-esteem. George: Yeah. Matthew: And as later in life now, I understand more that there is a spectrum with ADHD, with highly functioning autism, which I've registered on and have a much better understanding of now. That actually, George: Yeah. Me too, by the way. Matthew: I mean, I think without wanting to dismiss any of it. mean, most people can find themselves on those spectrums as well, but I think that it's very common within creatives as well with creative industries that the combination of the two show up of the autism and the ADHD. I think for me, it was The pain that I was trying to get rid of was the pain of feeling maybe like not part of something, not fitting in, not belonging somewhere. And George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: that actually with my music career, with DJing, I'm very lucky I've always been. gifted with the ability to connect to people through music. And for me George: Yeah. Matthew: as a channel, to communicate outwards to a large group of people or a small group of people, but through music George: Yeah. Matthew: was so much. easier than trying to actually communicate in groups verbally. I think that, George: Mm. I kind of relate to that, yeah. Matthew: you know, I think that the substances, aside from the fact that they are actually addictive, know, that the substances were at some level just a way of numbing out and George: Mm. Matthew: trying to deal with some of those difficulties. George: Mm, yeah. Yeah, thank you for sharing that and Yeah, when we talk about ADHD autism, then something that really resonated with me w when I got diagnosed with ADHD and like slight version of autism. Or with autism it was like not enough, so to speak, to be fully diagnosed. But like there I have some traits of that, you could say. Something I found really helpful to hear in in that process is that that also ADHD can be seen as a way of coping and a way of coping with being very, very sensitive and that sensitivity be n maybe not being recognized by by our caregivers, by our parents. And in that sense when I think about the music industry when especially when I think about really full on electronic clubs where it's like really busy and really loud and really fucking intense. it's actually quite difficult environment to be in when you're really, really sensitive. Matthew: I think there are various difficult environments to be in when you're sensitive that will, I guess people have different sensitivities and different levels of tolerance as well. But George: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matthew: I find that my fight or flight system will give me a very strong message of I'm leaving, I want to get out of here. George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: And sometimes when I walk into a place, like what you've described, I need to get past that first 20, 30 minutes to know whether I can even stay in there or not. George: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. yeah, I definitely have experiences like this. Or being being in a in a well, a few weeks ago was an albisa in D C ten, Circo Loco and I mean this is just like it's really full on and like really a lot of energy and a lot of people and very crowded and Yeah, I can totally relate that that this can really trigger the fight flight instinct of like this is yeah. really a really, really intense place to be in. And You mentioned earlier that that quite a few people who who work with you also work with you because you have all this background in in the music industry, all this experience in the music industry. And I also remember reading that on your website, where you really beautifully also write like why that gives you an edge or why that gives you like a certain perspective. could you talk a bit i into that, like how this experience in the music industry also informs the the way you work with clients and Matthew: Well, I think... I started very young. 11, 12 when I trying to DJ and 16 when I actually DJing weekly really and so George: In London. Matthew: yeah started in London but you know I've been in George: Yeah. Matthew: in that industry and for a very long time now really and I think that understanding where people are at that may be earlier in their journey, may be younger, they haven't been doing it for as long, they're experiencing the scene or where they're at in the scene in a certain way that I can understand and empathize with where they're at but also understand that they're at a certain point in the journey and it won't always be like that. But there are some challenges that I'm very aware of and some challenges that are new that weren't around when I was at that point or at that age, particularly around George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: the social media issues George: Yeah. Matthew: that impact how people feel about where they're at. I think, and just to also as a side note, I don't work with people usually that know me as Bushwhacker and are still out and about in that scene and George: Uh-huh. Matthew: the same sort of places. I often refer them to one of my team because I've got a small team of therapists that have a lot of experience but that are not known in that same way to the client. I don't ever... want there to be a conflict of interest with anonymity or confidentiality. So I'm quite discerning about, who I do and don't work with, but even just, you know, being able to, and George: That makes a lot of sense, Matthew: being able to have that consultation with the client to understand where they're at and whether they're coming to speak to me because, because I'm Bushwacker or because I'm a therapist that understands the music industry and there is a difference there, you know, so. I tend to see less people at the moment, but the other therapists are seeing those people that I might not be able to work with. George: Hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I can as you said, there could be a conflict of interest, there could also be a lot of projection, right? on you as the art the the artist, so to speak, or the very well known successful producer in DJ. and what would you say, Matthew? Like what are some maybe unique things in in this Well, intersection of the music industry but also the party scene, right? Because the music industry for maybe bands or like singers is a bit different than touring DJs who are like o yeah, in the parties all the time where people you know, have a wild night once in a while maybe, and maybe for some for a lot of people it's their their night out of in the month, but for the DJ it's like just one night within maybe even multiple nights of the weekend. like w what do you see as some like challenges that are really unique to to this lifestyle at the end? Matthew: the DJs? George: Yeah. Matthew: Well, some of them are fairly obvious, I think, you know, like how much sleep are you managing to get? And again, this is subjective. I mean, when I was younger and I was out there and I had a very strong constitution, so I didn't really need that much sleep, especially for the first 10, 20 years of doing what I was doing. So I could still function. fairly well without having had that much sleep, but that's not the case for everybody. And it does catch up and take its toll. And I think touring schedules in the last decade for DJs that are becoming or are very successful have been a lot more intense. And, you know, there's been a lot more shows all over the world and a lot more flight George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: schedules. And so that can be really demanding. the nutrition on the road, what we're putting inside ourselves, but actually also it's getting caught up in the lifestyle of it all as well. And look, don't get me wrong, not everybody is an addict or can't go out and party and enjoy themselves. mean, people George: Totally, yeah. Matthew: are out there to go out and have fun and party. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. a lot right with it. mean, going out and dancing and partying and having fun and laughing and hanging out with friends is therapy as well. George: A hundred percent, yeah. Thanks for saying that. Matthew: But it's just understanding what else might be going on for you. And I think one of the things that... is the most difficult really is that with the public image and with iPhones, cameras, social media, whatever, people feel that they need to be seen in a certain way. And whether that's to be strong, not to show George: Mm. Matthew: or share that maybe there's a problem going on, whether it is with substances addictions, whether it is with depression or... you know, sometimes self-harming or whether it's with imposter syndrome, whether it's with self-esteem, relationship issues, that, you know, all sorts of things that are going on that people aren't supposed to go out and tell everybody everything about themselves. That's not really how it works. But there seems to be often to be a be strong attitude. which I think maybe our grandparents were like, we don't show our feelings, we don't talk about our feelings. And this George: Yeah. Matthew: is a little bit different, but similar in a way. It's like, well, we can't be seen to be feeling in a certain way. for us to be okay with ourselves, we need to be seen George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: to be doing well. We need to be seen to be okay. George: Yeah. Matthew: And I think that can be tricky. That's why. some people. don't really get seen to be struggling until it's too late. no, these are isolated George: Mm. Matthew: cases, but there have been several losses in George: A hundred percent, yeah. Matthew: recent years from people that have been struggling with what they're going through and not sharing about it. George: Yeah. Yeah. I just lost a a friend in the in that scene through that. Or in in a similar dynamic. Matthew: Sorry to hear that. George: Yeah. That's Yeah, it i it it can be a lot and y you talked a bit about this dynamic of being seen, not being seen. And I find that that's a really, really, really interesting one, right? Like when when you look a bit into well like authors Gabor Marté or Basel van der Kork. So like people who write about how the body and the nervous system really keep the score, as the famous book title is. So how we not only remember things with our brain, we also mainly remember them with our body and our nervous system. And even And there can even be memories in the body, in the nervous system, that are not accessible to the brain in that moment. This differentiation between explicit memories and having access to it or implicit memories, which is not having access to it with like the brain yet. And that yeah, even so well so the Our body and nervous system stores things that that we sometimes can't even consciously remember. That's what I want to say, right? And that For for many many people, the deepest wound is like not being seen. And even so we might have s received a lot of love from our parents, we're really loved. Our parents couldn't really meet us in certain emotions like anger or shame or like usually the more intense things. And we we learned to suppress them and to put them away, and also forgot for to consciously forget when that exactly happened. So we all put it into this implicit body and and a nervous system memory. And And that often creates a lifelong, difficult dynamic with being seen or not being seen. And it can be really, really triggering to feel like I'm not seen. Or we really Matthew: Absolutely. George: try to create places where we are like s seen. And I find it, you know, from like the I would say I definitely have a a talent to to to to to end up in interesting places and and through that I was quite fortunate to to talk to a lot of very successful artists. and something that really struck me very often is that even artists who are like really, really, really successful, let's say Madonna, Talk about imposter syndrome or the fear of not really being seen or the yeah the fear of being that people will find out one day that they that they're not as good as they thought and and all of that and that even so they are like so seen and so successful there is still a fear of like not being seen or being found out as an imposter and I found that very interesting. How the how the same things can exist at the same time? Matthew: Absolutely. You said something earlier on this about... having loving parents, but that you still end up with these feelings, with these difficulties that can be integrated at a cellular level. you know, there's a lot of truth in that. And, you know, you can be held as a baby, physically held, but if the caregiver that's holding you isn't present, because they're struggling with not being seen by somebody else or not feeling that their needs have been met or are being met, that gets ingested into you at some level. you know, it can be quite complex that the holding or the verbal communication is one part of it, but... you're also picking something else up at times. And so we do end up with different sensitivities and reactions and responses to people, places and things. And often the coping mechanisms that we created to deal with those feelings when we were very, very young don't work anymore when we're older, but we still revert to them at some level or we still experienced what it feels like to perceive that there's a threat or that there's something missing at that level. in transactional analysis or part of that work, we talk about the stroke economy and we talk about... negative strokes, getting a negative response or message is better than not getting anything at all. You know, so if you're being like acknowledged as existing, but being told that you're a piece of shit, it's when you're very young, it can actually be better than not being acknowledged at all. And this is why some people play up. they misbehave or they... want to be seen or they get seen by doing something that is a bit shocking or a bit naughty or a bit bad or whether it's when their kids getting into fights or saying the wrong thing, the wrong thing to somebody or acting out in a certain way, it's because for them to be seen when they were growing up, they needed to do that. That was their coping mechanism. So, well, if I'm naughty, yeah. George: Mm, to get attention. Yeah. Yeah, that's that makes a lot of sense to me. certainly explains a lot of behavior of like people in the public who behave in really awful ways, but get a lot of attention for that. I just have to think about Donald Trump, to be honest. or like yeah, similar people like that. Yeah, and I feel what's what's like bit in what we what we're exploring right now is also that that have you ever heard a saying that that you you can't have enough of what you don't really need? Matthew: Mm-hmm. George: And that well w how I translate that to what we're exploring right now is that No amount of external fame will fill a hole of not being seen. Right. And that's you can be the biggest star in the world and if you have a wound around not being seen, it will not fill that and it will never be enough. Matthew: Or rather maybe it temporarily fills the void, And then it's George: Mm. Matthew: like with the DJing, you're asking about the challenges and so many people, know, in interviews and on conferences, say, well, and including myself, you know, it's like, well, you're playing to thousands of people and getting this kind of euphoria and adulation and then suddenly the music stops, the lights come on, you're back in the hotel room on your own. And... George: Yeah. Matthew: or thousands of miles away from your family or your friends and you know haven't had enough sleep and yeah it can be difficult and I think the other thing George: Yeah. Matthew: that's difficult is there's a lot of resentment and envy, cynicism towards people that describe these challenges and you know sometimes these days the attitude is very much like, poor you, know DJ's complaining or first world problems or George: Yeah, yeah. Matthew: well you could be working down a coal mine or, you know, look at you like doing all this stuff and now you're like saying, it's so sad, here I am, you know. And actually, you know, I think... that can be even more damaging for people, especially these days, especially with social media, is if George: Yeah. Matthew: people have got a hang up or a resentment about somebody's success. And I notice it quite a lot with certain attitudes towards people who are very, very wealthy or who are George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: billionaires or whatever. And much as I understand there's a... an argument or a fantasy of, well, this person's money could solve, well, hunger or whatever. But actually, at some level, I think we need to try and understand that hating on people for having more than somebody else is not a healthy place to be, not for anybody really. George: No. No. And yeah, in my experience a lot of very wealthy or very famous people are ra actually have are very hurt and and the core and that hurt is almost a driver to become so wealthy or so successful or so well known. I it's like a yeah as as we said, like a coping strategy. and yeah, I think it's important Matthew: So some of the people, mean, some of those people that are... George: to also acknowledge that that there's a and also to not scale things up because It's yeah, I find it very it's I think it's very dangerous to scale up suffering, so to speak, or scale up internal suffering and saying, yeah, you experienced this, so you have more right to be in a bad place than you, because you only Matthew: Mm-hmm. George: only experience this. But Matthew: Mm-hmm. George: as we know, right, like it's trauma is not what happens to us, it's what how we process it. And when for example someone had like really attuned parents and really loving parents and the parents that gave this person a lot of tools, they will be able to cope with more things than someone who didn't had those tools or didn't had this like secure upbringing. And and because of that it it just doesn't make sense to to scale things up from the external per perspective and saying, Yeah, there's a you you experienced rape and therefore you are allowed to complain more or to suffer more than someone who only experienced I don't know being bullied or something like that. Does that make sense? Matthew: It does make sense and I think that this is where... least from my perspective, think times have become more challenging, especially for younger people in some George: Mm. Matthew: ways, is how binary everything has become. It's either George: Yeah. Matthew: this or this. And, you know, again, with like... very wealthy people. A lot of the people that have formed companies that are now multi-billion dollar companies or whatever, those companies were in debt for like 20 years before they even became a profitable company. So that person has been working for a very, very long time in debt before things have turned around. I think it's a product of our environment that people are hating on. on people in this way because life's hard. The cost of living is spiraling out of control. A lot George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: of wages haven't gone up and for DJs in that world, it's even more challenging for most people because there are so many more people that want to be doing that, that are trying to get that job and get that gig and... it's hard to sustain for most people as a career that's going to pay for their lifestyle and pay for their ability to live okay as well. there are George: Yeah. Or maybe even pay for their families. Yeah. Matthew: lots and lots of different challenges with it all. But I think, you know, going back to what I was saying, know, the envy is a very debilitating feeling and I think a lot of people with their relationships to social media to Instagram it can create envy for them you know people that George: Mm. Matthew: are trying to get up on the ladder trying to do better and all they see is you know people posting the very best moment of their day or week or whether it's real or or or fake you know that everything's amazing George: Yeah, that's a whole new level right now, right? It's not it's it's even like not only that that they post like the most amazing moments or just like the the also fo captured from a certain angle where it looks the best. But now also the question Matthew: And you got, know. George: if it is it even real or how much AI was involved to make this picture Matthew: Yeah. George: really pop like that, right? It's Matthew: And look, you know, it's part of the game. You've George: Mm. Matthew: got to play the game as well. mean, you know, some kind of... social media presence is important for most people that are trying to grow what they're doing. But George: Do anything, yeah. Matthew: nevertheless, you know, I think it's a lot harder now in some ways for people to be trying to do well with it. also feel that they need to put themselves in the public eye. You know, I think George: No. Matthew: that brings up a lot of mental health issues. George: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it definitely can can trigger a lot of things, right? And like when when I look look back on on my life then I can see that I like had many moments where I was where I felt very depressed or like very Yeah, let's say very depressed and was also quite a journey to really understand that because at the beginning, my parents are medical doctors. So for them, all psychological things are solved through medication. and and they only see it as a as a biological disbalance or like disbalance of neurotransmitters and hormones and stuff. and that did not help me at all. And only when I learned more about the nervous system and and and had some lucky synchronicities that led me to work with someone who worked with somatic experiencing and compassionate inquiry and and internal family systems. It really clicked for me. And you know there's when when I saw this map about different nervous system states and how one state is about feeling depressed, being Feeling disabled, feeling overwhelmed, moving from I can to I cannot, to feel really like frozen, the free state. it really made sense for me what I've experienced in those moments where I felt depressed. And it was not depression, it was my nervous system going into freeze, which is something I learned as a child. as a coping strategy to things that were too intense or came too quick. And Yeah, what I what I what where I want to go with that is that it's also so important how we look on mental health and that we Don't stop. W don't stop with approaches that are almost belittling or or or disabling of saying you have this depressive disorder. where in in fact it's actually something very different. It's way more about unresolved trauma. And And I feel that's so important to to Well, it's so important that people have access to this kind of information. Matthew: It is an There's definitely a place in the world for medication, for lots of different things. And when I think about depression and antidepressants, I have one foot in both camps with it. I don't like the idea that people would need to stay on those tablets forever necessarily. But at the same time, I also do recognise that for some people that addressing the chemical imbalance can make a huge difference for them as a generalization. But it's never just one thing. There's always, okay, what else are you doing? And I remember when I'd gone through a period of depression years ago and I'd taken some antidepressants for either six months or a year, I can't remember. And I'd stopped. And then I felt I was... becoming depressed again and I went to see a doctor here, a private doctor and I explained everything to him and he said, okay, he said, I'll tell you what, go for an hour walk in nature every day for the next three weeks and if you still feel like that, come back and I'll give you a prescription. And I never went back. George: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Matthew: At that time in my life, it was like, actually, it's not just take a tablet and sit at home and hope that the tablet works. It's go out, walk in nature, connect, connect with nature, give yourself permission to connect again. And it's not easy. Depression is a very formidable opponent. And there are lots of different levels of severity with it. you know, acute depression is horrible, it really is, but... George: Totally. Yeah. I can yeah. Totally yeah, relate from my own experience. Matthew: Yeah, but, George: It's one of the the worst feeling states to be in. Yeah. Matthew: I also believe that for many people that are parallel to follow is it's neither just nature or medication but it's actually you know what are your daily practices what are your daily George: Mm. Matthew: you know what are your spiritual practices and I'm not talking about religion I'm talking about George: Yeah. Yeah. Matthew: you know what are doing on a daily basis that connects you with selflessness, with compassion, George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: with gratitude, kindness, the George: Compassion, yeah. Matthew: things that help you to understand that your part in what you're experiencing is something that you can do something about and George: Mm. Matthew: not expecting everybody else to change so that you feel better. George: Yeah. Yeah. So bl learning agency to take agency, right? And learning to be ab to learn to learn, okay, I can take ownership and responsibility over that. But that's Matthew: Mm-hmm. George: the trickier thing with depression, that when when when we're really in this state it it it takes out the we really in my experience we really move to this I cannot. And it's really can be really disabling and really difficult to just get dressed. Matthew: it feels so real so George: Or just yeah, take off those basic needs. Matthew: when the what's the point story kicks in and George: Mm. Matthew: people are suffering with depression and they just don't see the point in anything it feels George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: very real, it's hard. George: Mm. And I I I wondered Matthew, how how was that for you in terms of like this external success in music that you've already created at that point. And then I I can imagine that then this what's the point question is even stronger because you already know, okay, like I created all of that and that hasn't been the solution for not feeling like that. Matthew: I guess that depends on how we define success really, you know, and George: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Good point. Matthew: I think, things ebb and flow. I, when I look back on over the years, you know, there have been various degrees of success or lack of success, if you like, as well. And, you know, I'm fully aware that my difficulties with substances, with addiction, with fitting in with communication socially at times have impacted my level of success at some level and that is something that I can understand and be with now. George: Yeah. Matthew: But you know, even until very recently, again, it can feel like I'm trying to swim up a waterfall, know, it's like... super, super challenging. It's like you feel like something is about to happen that's going to change the direction and get you back on the trajectory you want to get on and then it doesn't happen or somebody George: Mm. Matthew: does a 180 or a bunch of stuff gets cancelled or some issue pops up which affects George: Mm. Matthew: everything and it's like snakes and ladders and you know it can still be like that now and it's George: Mm. Matthew: and really is all about the journey, not the destination. George: Totally. Matthew: Sometimes for me, success just means getting to the end of the day and still wanting to be here. Other George: Mm. Matthew: days it means, wow, I've just landed a gig that I've always wanted to do, or finally this record's going to come out or whatever. It can be things like that, which are a little bit more material but still have value. But sometimes it's just like, I've paid my rent and the sun is shining. and my dog's happy to see me, you know? George: Hmm. Hm. Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Matthew. And I once read somewhere that that like entrepreneurship is also a very like spiritual journey or a journey of personal development. because yeah, if if you're doing your own things out there in this world, It there will be a lot of challenging moments and a lot of moments that are really triggering. and then it's of course a blessing in disguise in terms of like, this is something I can work with, this is something I can, for example, inquire into to use the compassionate inquiry language. and it will bring out our deepest fears and insecurities. And that that's certainly can be really tough at at moments. Matthew: really tough a couple of years ago. of years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, I thought I'd finally got to a place where everything was about to kick off in the right direction again and you know working with the right people or whatever and then you know something happened that got massively taken out of context and overnight everything fell apart and you know George: Mm. Matthew: That was incredibly challenging because I could realise my part in the process and understand that I had a part in it, but at the same time, all those feelings that we've been talking about in our chat today about emotions stored at a cellular level from a very long time George: Huh. Matthew: ago, some of them that are accessible. mentally and some that aren't, George: Mm. Matthew: This feeling was like the feeling that you'd been caught skipping school and you were going to get expelled or something. It took me back to like, I'm in big trouble. And I haven't felt like that since I was a little boy, you know. And it was George: Wow. Matthew: just like, you know, like George: Mm. Matthew: how is this even happening right now that the repeated pattern again, just as everything's going really well. suddenly everything's going to get ruined and this just confirms all the beliefs I have about myself being not good enough and all this stuff. And and it's been, you know, taken a lot of work to work through that. But I guess as they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? And, you know, I have had to do a lot of deep diving and soul searching and, you know, also, you know, I'm very lucky that my partner, my wife is so supportive and, you know, has George: Mm. Matthew: constantly reminded me that I'm not the bad guy actually and that I'm experiencing something painful but to stop being so hard on myself and I think we can be so hard on ourselves especially as creatives. One minute we feel like yeah everything's great we've made a great tune or we're on top of the world the next minute we're like no this is rubbish, why am I doing this? And it's a real George: Yeah. Matthew: roller coaster. George: It it totally is. And it's like yeah as you also mentioned, like it's it's always also like Bringing something into motion that that happened a very long time ago. when we were children or teenagers or yeah, some some old unprocessed memories. And yeah, when when you shared your story, I had also to think about a moment where I I had a gig coming up that I was like, you know, excited about for like many years and I asked them multiple times over the years, if we can make that gig happen. And then That g got cancelled two weeks before f before the date because just thinking how how much I w can can say publicly. But let's say through some like c conflict of interest with somebody else. Where they feel are we working also with this person and and and you and you had some difficulties together. So like we're gonna going to cancel that gig now. And that was like so triggering for me and it brought up so much from like being bullied in school to be excluded be being excluded from like groups. abuse and all kinds of things. and has been really, really, really intense. but luckily at that point I already had a lot of tools and also like a lot of support through really good therapists and and and practitioners. But that would be exactly the moment where historically in the past it would have triggered me into into depression or into dep into free states that are disguised as depression. But once I knew okay, this is about freeze and it's about my nervous system, I also knew how to get out of that again. But like yeah, this These kind of triggers can run really, really, really deep. Matthew: really deep and I think again with the divisiveness the divisions They were never so apparent years ago. You could have a bunch of people in the same place that were dancing, whatever, having fun. they weren't vetted or discerned or judged against from... a social media based public perception about their beliefs about something, whether it's political or personal or George: Yeah. Matthew: some kind of current affair or environmental affair or whatever it might be. George: Yeah. Matthew: It was just like, we're just there, we're out. And not everyone gets on with everyone, but we're out and George: Mm. Matthew: we're there to listen to music and dance. yeah, okay. That person might have voted for the Labour Party, that person might have voted for the Conservative Party, but it is what it is. Whereas now, I've got friends in the States that have stopped talking to their lifelong friends because of different opinions about politics. George: Mm. Matthew: It's almost as if you can't really have different opinions about certain things anymore. It's half expected that if you're not of a certain way with your thinking or your George: Mm. Matthew: opinions that we can't have a conversation. And I think that's very sad. George: Absolutely. And I feel it from my perspective there's also a lot of trauma reenactment in that. And I, I remember very very vividly how shocked I was when I, for example, first and that's a slightly different example but for me belongs into the same category. When I first ab heard about the the paperback test. Do you know what it is? It's a thing within certain parts of the black community in in the States. and it's about that if your skin color is lighter than a paperback, you don't belong to the black community. Which is fucking rough, right? And like f so a lot of mixed race people experience that. In in certain parts of the of that community in the States. And I was thinking, like, how can a group of people who experienced so much marginalization and so much punching down have something like this in place? But it's the same in the gay community. Like in certain really big gay clubs. In Berlin I heard from from DJs who played there that they were not allowed to play in drag because that's too feminist, too, too, too, too girly, too f feminine. And that they're really bully were really bullied for being too feminine. And I thought, again, how can a community that experienced so much shit of our system act like that? And then when I learnt about trauma reenactment and that you when you don't process your trauma, you will act pass it on to the next person where you can. That really explained that to me. And as soon as you can punch down, you will punch down. And yeah, in that light I find it even more important to to really openly talk about trauma because I feel it's really important to understand those things and maybe even have a moment of like seeing, okay. If I'm really honest, I actually did something like that as well. And then use it as a possibility to grow and to expand and to heal, and to to to grow into more compassion and into more like this ability to to be with someone even so they think differently about something or have a different opinion or a different taste in music or a different clothing style or whatever it is. Matthew: Yeah, and George: Yeah. Matthew: I think maybe one thing that has been lost a little bit is direct communication. If somebody that I knew or that I was friends with shared something or had said something that I had feelings about or that made me concerned about where they were at, I think I would... George: Yeah. Matthew: I would like to talk to them about it. I wouldn't go on Facebook and somebody else's post and be like sort of publicly trying to shame or belittle somebody if they were someone who was supposed to be a friend. I would, you know, hope that I could actually just speak them and say, hey, are you okay? What's all this about? Like, George: Mm. Matthew: what did you mean by that? Or, you know, can help me make sense of it? because I was a bit concerned that you might be giving off the wrong message here or something. But that just seems to be lost for the most part now. It's just, I mean, I'm not really on Facebook very much anymore, but that place seems to be just a George: Yeah. Matthew: place for people to hang their dirty laundry a lot of the George: Yeah, Matthew: time. George: yeah and I I feel the the the fucked up thing is that a lot of those platforms, for for for and foremost of course, X are built in a way that it promotes conflict, it promotes like hate speech, it promotes Yeah, all this kind of language and behavior and commenting and and things and that it will yeah, trigger the algorithm. and it really encourages Matthew: Sure. George: people to act like that. I think that's very dangerous. Matthew: And look, don't get me wrong with my kind of Matthew stroke DJ hat on years ago. I definitely did participate in trying to share content that would trigger the algorithm, not bad stuff, like stuff that would either George: No, of course. Matthew: make people want to reply or respond or share something or answer a question or whatever. And George: Fa fair enough, fair enough. Matthew: to my own detriment, with certain things, but as time went on, especially post-COVID with the divisions, that became much more toxic and less of a topic of conversation that was controversial, should we say, but more of a lynch mob attitude. George: This is Matthew: so I feel that it's not really a healthy place to be. And actually, my relationship with... Instagram is that if I have the app on my phone and I look at it and I notice that my body feels different, my energy, my emotion, my... I often just delete the app for a few days again because it's like, well, why are you doing that? Why are you looking at something that's bringing your vibration down? George: Exactly. Yeah. I do the same. I feel like ph physically physically really deleting it from your phone. From my phone Matthew: Thanks. George: is the best remedy for a few days. th that that's really, really good. And Something I wanted to ask you in this last part of our conversation today and I was really curious about this is like we talked a bit about well we talked a lot about substances and addiction earlier on. and I wondered if you have ever had experiences with substances, for example, psychedelics that were really helpful for you or really formative for you. Matthew: I would probably say that... Definitely my early experiences with psychedelics were they opened my mind, they opened my... way of experiencing. processing and I don't have any regrets about that in any way shape or form. wouldn't change anything about having had those experiences with psychedelics early on. Plant medicine is a very important space that we are more more aware of as the general population globally. George: Yeah. Matthew: mean it's been around for a long time but actually you know there is There's a lot there as long as it's. used in the right way and and George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: understood, I think, that there can be a lot of benefits George: Absolutely. Matthew: from it. Again, it's not necessarily a magic bullet, it doesn't necessarily cure everything, but it can help George: That's right. Matthew: us to connect with parts of our psyche, way of being and thinking that is inaccessible to us most of the time, and I think that that can be really, really helpful. But yeah, I... don't get me wrong, mean, certain substances out there that have, you know, mind-altering properties that are very, very addictive like ketamine, which a lot of people have got big problems with. George: Totally, yeah. Matthew: On the other side of the coin, know, ketamine-based therapy sessions are becoming more of a thing these days. I don't know too much about that, but, you know, but... But I do know that a lot of people have struggled with ketamine addiction. It's crept up on them as well and it's left them with physical problems as well as George: Yeah. Matthew: problems with what's real and what's not real. But George: Yeah. Matthew: again, not everybody's an addict. So it would be easy for me if I was less educated and more naive to say, all these things are bad and no one should ever do any of them. George: Yeah. Matthew: I don't believe that, at the same time, sometimes people need to be told they've got a problem. They don't need to wait to figure it out for themselves. George: Thank you for saying that. That's so important, huh? And yeah, the friend that I mentioned earlier that I lost a while ago, or like a f not a while, a few months ago, yeah, Catamina was a big part of that. In in Matthew: Yeah. George: his story. And it's Yeah, it's I I totally agree with you that a lot of the the psychedelics can be incredible, beautiful and powerful, incredible allies in in our healing journeys and like connecting more with ourselves and like also bringing up things that we repressed and that are of course working in the background and and creating struggles in the background of our psyche and our of our lives. that can be incredible to connect us with creativity and music. really open our minds and that it's as you said, really about how you do them and in what context. and that especially ketamine I also feel is a very slippery slope and unique in this umbrella term of psychedelics, that it can be really addictive and really hook people in. Of course also through the possibility of just doing a bump here and there and not that's a bit different from like a full blown mushroom experience or ayahuasca that's way more like yeah, doesn't ha fit so much into like an all day life or where you can be a functioning addict. Right? Yeah. And I feel also in the electronic music world it's really important to to openly talk about the dangerous sides of ketamine. Nah, yeah. No, at least of Matthew: Yeah. George: of including this friend I mentioned of like two other people in in my network that recently passed through ketamine accidents basically. Matthew: Yeah, yeah, it's an area that can be very, very risky. People can get very, very heavily hooked to that and their tolerance levels build up very quickly. So they need to take a lot more and then it can affect their ability to... function physically as well and yeah there's a lot of things George: Yeah. Matthew: there with that with the abuse of it all. George: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, it's Matthew: I I don't miss the lifestyle around those things. I'm not saying that I George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: didn't have some amazing nights over the years, but you know, really... I know that I addressed those problems a long time ago and I feel good about that. George: That's really, really wonderful and really powerful for for a lot of people to hear. So thank you for for being so open about that. Matthew: I guess the other side of it is that sometimes people come up to me, DJs or producers out there, and they always want to talk to me about, I've decided I want to stop drinking or taking drugs. sometimes I think, can I come and play at your party? I thought you wanted me to come and play at your party with you, but you always want to talk to me about getting sober. like, so George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: I sometimes I get stuck in that, that. in between space where I'm like, these people, they want me to help them to get clean and sober. And they're still playing all my music, but like, I want to come and play at their parties as well. So it's like, I very much George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: keep my two vocations connected but separate. So if people come George: Yeah. Matthew: up to me wasted and say, I need to talk to you about my mental health at three o'clock in the morning, I tell them to give me a call during the week. You know, I'm not, I'm, George: Yeah, it's makes sense, so Matthew: I explained I've got my DJ hat on right now and it's not the right moment and George: Yeah, totally. Matthew: most of the time I don't hear from them again but you know I think there's a time and a place for that stuff. George: Absolutely. It's like a yeah asking a a heart surgeon about advice at a at a dinner party, they would also tell you like here is g get in contact with my assistant and and and then we can talk. But it's also on the other hand, I find it's great that people make the step and and just like approach you and and and are open getting vulnerable in addressing to you that they need some support in mental health, in their mental well being. Just open it is crucial, yeah. Matthew: Absolutely. And that conversation stays open. I George: Mm. Matthew: encourage people to connect when they're ready or when they feel that they want to take the next step, and we can talk about it. As a gauge, there is a time and a place, and sort of in a nightclub isn't usually it. The George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: amount of conversations I've had with people that have They've got some regrets about what they've done for the last week or two and they've decided that they're going to give up tomorrow. It's the cliched of, I drank so much, I had the worst hangover, I'm never going to drink again. And then two days later George: Mm. Matthew: it's like, let's go and get some more drinks. But I do encourage that, let's have a chat during the week when you're feeling ready to talk about this seriously. George: A hundred percent, yeah. Hmm. And I'm really, really excited, yeah, for for what what's what's ahead for you and and this project. that you mentioned early on in the in the in our conversation with this software app that you're developing for for those experiences journeys, really bespoke journeys, around sound and intentions and and affirmations. That sounds really, really beautiful. And And yeah, I'm really excited about this combination out of yeah, sound and and therapy and music and dance floor. I think there's so much really amazing and powerful things in there and really yeah, stacking and combining those things is so much fun and and also so much there's so much potency and power and beauty in in for the people who receive that. Matthew: I think one of the things that really struck me that I did a talk and a presentation at Alexandra Palace a couple of years ago, George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: the Future is Sound event around this, around these frequencies and how we can change the way we feel through listening to certain things. I did a really big experiment with the whole auditorium of Alexandra Palace, asking them to notice how they felt before they listened to this and then George: Mm. Matthew: to feedback how they felt afterwards. you know, we talk about placebo and, you know, placebo, some people interpret a placebo as, you know, we've done a test and half of you've taken paracetamol and the other half of you have taken a sugar pill. The results show that the people that took the sugar pills also feel better. That's actually, it's not about tricking somebody, it's about understanding the power of placebo and you know placebo George: Yes. Matthew: is a really powerful medicine and so you know when we talk about binaural beats you know it's not always just about well does this work for everyone you know in the same way but it's like what can we do with our intentions that has the power to change the way that we feel moving George: Mm. Matthew: forwards? And people can think themselves sick, they can think themselves to be more healthy. There's so much that we can change about our state of wellness based on what our beliefs are, what our positive or negative beliefs are about our health or our future. And so this George: I agree, yeah. Matthew: is all part of that really. George: Absolutely. Yeah. And again the the power to to change our lives, the power to choose who we want to be every day, how we want to show up. and how to put that into our music, into our art and out to our projects. Yeah. It's really a a blessing that that we are allowed to do that, that it's possible for humans to do stuff like that. Matthew: It is, and so much of it these days is about permission. Can we give ourselves permission to be a certain way, to show up a certain way, to create George: Uh-huh. Matthew: a certain way, to perform a certain way, to communicate a certain way? And not giving the permission to ourselves to do that, that's the blockage. So how do we move past George: Yeah. Matthew: that? George: Totally, yeah. And that's yeah, that that question alone is such an incredible invitation to go really deep and and can bring so Matthew: Mm. George: much things to the light. Yeah. Beautiful. And if people want to find more about you, about your work, Matthew, where would you direct them? Matthew: Well, Listen Up Therapy, a therapy company that I run with my wife, is a good place to start if anybody wants to connect about anything related to any presenting issues or struggles or interest in therapy or mentoring that we provide. ListenUpTherapy.com but if anybody wants to get in touch with me about other things, mean, they can connect with me just through my socials or just drop me an email to the info at ListenUpTherapy and I can come back to people, I can come back to people about whatever it is that they're interested in, you know. George: Amazing. Thank you so much, Matthew, for taking the time for this conversation today. Yeah. Matthew: No, thank you. I would love to have been with you in person, but obviously geographically that was a bit tricky, George: Yeah. Matthew: but I've really enjoyed connecting with you. And actually it's brought up lots of things for me to think about as well, which is really useful, really important. And especially I want to say thanks for the grounding at the beginning. Like I don't do enough George: Mm-hmm. Matthew: of that. You really reminded me how important that is. George: Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, that's su it's super super important. That's right. Like for it's not in the recording, but basically we we did a bit of breathing and arriving beforehand. And that really changes conversations massively, no matter if it's therapeutic conversations or podcasts like this or work conversations. It's it's a different energy when we do that first. Yeah. Matthew: The irony is, I messaged my son yesterday and he said, I haven't got a minute to myself, like my mind is just completely full. And I responded to him and said, what about breath work? And there's me suggesting something to him that I'm not even doing for myself, that I should be doing. And I'm like, well, okay. It's so interesting that we can know, and this is probably a good note to end on, we can know what we need to do. We can know that we have the tools at our disposal. but we don't use them, we don't George: Mm. Matthew: pick them up, George: That's true, yeah. And that's one of my fur my favorite sessions to have with my clients, to be honest, to to inquire into like what's happening there and like what are the blockages in that, like to not use the tools that we have. and how can that be resolved? Because the other information is out there. It can be can be a Matthew: Yeah, well, fear of change, the fear of change is huge. George: lot of things, right? But it's so much more easy if we if we apply what we know already n what we know will be the helpful for our mental health or for a project or whatever it is. So yeah that's a that's a great a great place to get really curious about and and and to to explore. Nice one. Thank you so much Matthew. And Matthew: Thank you, George. George: beautiful. I'm going to stop the recording here.