Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Death Row Club

Transcript

Death Row Club · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The Death Row Club. Let that sink in the Death
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Row Club. I mean to see grace. This is crime Stories.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us The
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Death Wrote Club. Is it real or is it just
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a book by Victoria Visquez? Now this is a book
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: of fiction. In my world, I deal with real serial
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: killers like Ted Bundy.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I still have a sense of disbelief that this man
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: that I loved and that was seemed to be such
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: a great guy could go out and do such horrific things.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: It's just so hard to accept.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: As I'm sure you've asked yourself, why not me?
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Completely? And I hate to even say this because it
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: makes him sound normal, but I do think he loved this.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: I heard a story told by one of his attorneys.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: He said Ted told him that he would play games
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: with mice, then he would let some of them live
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: and make some of them die. And to me, that's us.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at ABC. Isn't he charming? Well
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: he's having supper with Satan? Now? How many victims did
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: he have? I don't think we really have an accurate
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: body count, which leads me to another real life serial killer.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Let's just go with Israel Keys.
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: I had that place that they're staked out one actually
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: two or three knights. And then I had a park,
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: a couple of parks here in town that I could
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: ride my bike too at those staked out. Yeah, but
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: there's there's still a couple of gallons during a shovel
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: steps to the back.
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: When I was smart, I would.
• 2:14
  Speaker 6: Do it.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: I would let them come to me.
• 2:19
  Speaker 6: Up saying this.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: Remote area kind of go to a remote area that's
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: not anywhere near where.
• 2:29
  Speaker 7: You live, but that other people go to as well.
• 2:35
  Speaker 6: You might not get exactly what you're not emuch juice
• 2:39
  Speaker 6: film in the manner of speaking. But there's also no witnesses,
• 2:43
  Speaker 6: really original builds around.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: So as a matter of fact, in we think his
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: last victim's murder, that would be Samantha Koenig, a beautiful
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: young Alaska berr barista who was kidnapped from her coffee stand.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: He actually sewed her eyes open applied makeup. This is
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: of course, after sex assaulting her for hours and hours
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: and hours, turning up the music really loudly so no
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: one would hear her screaming. He sows her eyes open,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: covers her in makeup, and takes a blurry photo and
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: actually asks for ransom. That's Issuel keys killed kits all
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: around the country. He specifically liked to hunt at parks,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: at RV camps, at camping sites. Animal I don't have
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: to think really hard to come up with BTK buying
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: torture kill the Dogcatcher Dennis Raider.
• 3:48
  Speaker 8: I was willing to have a sexual fantasy, so I
• 3:50
  Speaker 8: brought my hit kit and lo and behold, her car
• 3:54
  Speaker 8: was there. I thought, geez, she's not supposed to be home.
• 3:58
  Speaker 8: So I very carefully snuck into the house kind of
• 4:00
  Speaker 8: like a cat burglar, and after checking the house, she
• 4:03
  Speaker 8: wasn't there. So about that time the doors rattled, so
• 4:10
  Speaker 8: I went back to one of the bedrooms and hiding
• 4:12
  Speaker 8: back there in one of the bedrooms, I waited till
• 4:15
  Speaker 8: wee hours in the morning, and then proceeded to sneak
• 4:19
  Speaker 8: into her bedroom and put the lights on what looked
• 4:22
  Speaker 8: like I think the bathroom lights. I just studied want
• 4:24
  Speaker 8: to flip her lights on, and and she screamed, and
• 4:27
  Speaker 8: I jump on the bed and strangled her manually.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at k w c H. And
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: then of course let me just throw in for good measure.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Brian Coburgerer who murdered for beautiful yan Idaho Stevens. I
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: will never forget this. Nine one one call.
• 4:44
  Speaker 6: I me exactly what's going on one of our one
• 4:49
  Speaker 6: of the roommates who's passed out and.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: She was drunk class and shot way up.
• 4:54
  Speaker 9: Oh and they saw some man in their house. I
• 4:57
  Speaker 9: was nice, Yeah, are you with the patient?
• 5:01
  Speaker 10: Okay?
• 5:01
  Speaker 9: I need someone to keep the phone not passing it around.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Can I just tell you what happened?
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Pretty much?
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: What is going on currently?
• 5:09
  Speaker 6: Is someone passed out right now?
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: I don't really know what pretty much?
• 5:13
  Speaker 11: Vitoriam Okay, Well, I need to know what's going on
• 5:16
  Speaker 11: right now.
• 5:16
  Speaker 6: If someone is passed out, can you find.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: That out, y'all.
• 5:19
  Speaker 10: I'll come some momentical check.
• 5:23
  Speaker 11: What we have to.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: She's not waking.
• 5:42
  Speaker 6: Up, okay, one moment.
• 5:47
  Speaker 10: I'm getting helped started.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: That way, We'll give me. The list goes on and on.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: The Death Row Club. Victoria Usquez joining us.
• 6:14
  Speaker 12: First question, why so, first of all, thank you so
• 6:20
  Speaker 12: much for having me, Nancy. I was fascinated by the
• 6:28
  Speaker 12: idea of being linked to a family member and living
• 6:35
  Speaker 12: under kind of the pull of what they've done. Well,
• 6:40
  Speaker 12: I personally do not have any family members who are
• 6:43
  Speaker 12: serial killers. This was in some way inspiring.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Hold on, Nelly, you sure you sure? So you know
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: don't have a family when they are relative. It's I'm
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: so not kidding right now. I want you to listen
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: to this.
• 7:00
  Speaker 9: There's a knock on my door and he said he
• 7:01
  Speaker 9: was the FBI and then he says, your dad has
• 7:04
  Speaker 9: been arrested as BTK and I was like, I think
• 7:08
  Speaker 9: I'm going to pass out. I think reality was starting
• 7:11
  Speaker 9: to creep in, and I felt my stomach just twist
• 7:15
  Speaker 9: realizing it could be true.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at ABC, Dennis Radar just evil,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: evil incarnate. That's his daughter who is amazing and living
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: with exactly what Victoria Visquez is writing about. And this book,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, is amazing. I'm giving her a
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: hard time, like, why would you want to write about
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: a serial killer. They're odious, they're horrible, they're the devil.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: But what you're writing about, Victoria, I understood, is about
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: family that can't believe it. They're suspicious and what it
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: does to them. And you know a lot of people, Victoria,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: they're like, hey, that's the daughter of a serial killer.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Screw her. But these family members are innocent. They're innocent,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and then their whole world is just shattered when they
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: find out they've been living with evil. Okay, where'd you
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: get the idea?
• 8:23
  Speaker 12: So this was in part inspired by something that happened
• 8:28
  Speaker 12: to me when I was in high school. I had
• 8:33
  Speaker 12: a teacher that I was very, very close with, but
• 8:36
  Speaker 12: then two years after I graduated, it was revealed that
• 8:41
  Speaker 12: he was a dangerous sexual predator. He was arrested in
• 8:46
  Speaker 12: a car with a fifteen year old student, and when
• 8:50
  Speaker 12: I found out, I was completely blindsided. I had absolutely
• 8:53
  Speaker 12: no idea. Again, we were so close. He inspired me
• 8:56
  Speaker 12: to want to become a teacher myself, and all I
• 8:59
  Speaker 12: could think was, if I was so caught out by
• 9:03
  Speaker 12: my teacher turning out to be a predator, then what
• 9:07
  Speaker 12: must it be like when the police come knocking on
• 9:09
  Speaker 12: your door telling you about all of the women that
• 9:12
  Speaker 12: your father has murdered?
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Oh my stars, Oh my stars, you know what you're
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: reminding me of. It reminded me of a murder case
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: I prosecuted, and one of my star witnesses, I had
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: no eyewitness to the murder, and you're about to hear
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: I had to dig the bottom of the barrel but
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: you got to take your witnesses as you find them.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: I found a witness, not an eyewitness, but that could
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: help me in the timeline who was a convicted rapist.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Now his story was very different than what the record reflected,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: but I had to drive all around Atlanta with this
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: guy and my beat up Honda day and night, trying
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: to take pictures him to show me where this happened,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: where that happened, and he testified, And there were times
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: in the car Victoria of us guzz oh, you know,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: glade and go I can't believe this guy is convicted rapest.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: It was hard to take in, but I knew it
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: to be true. Okay, So that's where you got the idea.
• 10:18
  Speaker 12: Yeah, absolutely, And I think that just what you're saying. Nicola,
• 10:22
  Speaker 12: the main character in the novel, even after her father's arrested,
• 10:26
  Speaker 12: even after she knows that her father murdered five women,
• 10:30
  Speaker 12: including her best friend from college, she still loves him.
• 10:34
  Speaker 12: That's not something you can just, you know, turn off
• 10:37
  Speaker 12: that easily. I mean, I still after my teacher was arrested,
• 10:42
  Speaker 12: I still have, you know, fond thoughts about him, despite
• 10:45
  Speaker 12: the fact that I know he has done disgusting things.
• 10:48
  Speaker 12: It's hard to flip that switch mentally and be like,
• 10:52
  Speaker 12: this person who was so important to me is actually,
• 10:55
  Speaker 12: like you're saying, is sick as a predator, Is you know,
• 10:58
  Speaker 12: a disgusting human being.
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: It's hard.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna have to go to a shrink right
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: now because you're scaring everybody in the studio by saying
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I know that he's a child predator, but I still
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: like him. Doctor Rachel Toles helped me. Doctor Toles, clinical
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: forensic psychologist, author of a brand new book coming out,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Inventing the Psychopath. Ooh, that's a great title, How a
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: convenient myth makes the world more dangerous? Okay, Doctor Rachel
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Toles fits in exactly with what Victoria is saying. And
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying she's wrong. I'm saying that phenomena is scary,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: and I live through that in court, particularly in child
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: sex abuse cases, because the family, the wife, they're like, oh, no,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: that's not true, that didn't happen. He would never he did,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: and I proved it, and the family would be furious.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I'll get my tires slashed, my door at my house,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: kicked in, my mailbox knocked over because no body would
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: believe it. Is it a matter of they can't believe it?
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Because that's Giez, she's super smart. This book is amazing,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: the Death Row Club. But she still can't take in
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that that teacher is a pervert that prayed on children
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: because that was not her experience with him. What is
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: that phenomenon, doctor Rachel?
• 12:28
  Speaker 11: Well, it's obviously really complicated for a lot of reasons.
• 12:32
  Speaker 11: I mean, human beings are complicated. So I think that,
• 12:34
  Speaker 11: for example, when we get to the murder, that suddenly
• 12:38
  Speaker 11: defines the entire person. So everything that came before the
• 12:41
  Speaker 11: murders is just gone. And I think when you mentioned
• 12:45
  Speaker 11: this guy was a pervert, this teacher, those are absolutely
• 12:48
  Speaker 11: things he did. They were despicable, and those are real
• 12:52
  Speaker 11: things and those are a part of him. But I
• 12:55
  Speaker 11: think where we as a society and the culture where
• 12:59
  Speaker 11: we go, is that we the minute we find out
• 13:02
  Speaker 11: of a despicable act, we define the entire person by
• 13:06
  Speaker 11: that act. And that doesn't mean there's no excuse for
• 13:08
  Speaker 11: these actions. So that's absolutely not what I'm saying. But
• 13:11
  Speaker 11: what I am saying is there's also other parts of
• 13:15
  Speaker 11: a human being that are real. For example, I mean,
• 13:18
  Speaker 11: here we're talking about somebody who's saying, well, I still
• 13:21
  Speaker 11: love my father or I still care for my teacher,
• 13:25
  Speaker 11: and that's very real and that doesn't go away. And
• 13:29
  Speaker 11: so then it's a matter of being able, as a
• 13:31
  Speaker 11: daughter or a person who loves somebody to hold two
• 13:34
  Speaker 11: different people in your mind, and you have to compartmentalize.
• 13:39
  Speaker 11: And that's really what we're talking about here. So there's
• 13:41
  Speaker 11: a couple of things. There's the person who murders, and
• 13:45
  Speaker 11: that's the other thing. It's like, how does a daughter
• 13:48
  Speaker 11: wrap her head around the fact that did my father
• 13:51
  Speaker 11: really love me? And maybe no, yes, my father really
• 13:55
  Speaker 11: loved me. He was capable of love and he was
• 13:58
  Speaker 11: capable of doing this despicable thing. So there's that element
• 14:03
  Speaker 11: to it. But then there's of course the compartmentalization. How
• 14:06
  Speaker 11: does a human being, how are they able to love
• 14:10
  Speaker 11: their daughters or their wives and then go out at
• 14:12
  Speaker 11: night and murder sex workers or people who they deem
• 14:16
  Speaker 11: as less human. And that's what I think we need
• 14:19
  Speaker 11: to be looking at here.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Doctor Tolls. In addition to being a clinical and forensic
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: psychologist and author of a new book, I think he
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: may be clairvoyant because I was just about to bring
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: up Rex Heureman, who is Lucifer. Before I show him,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: let's look at his many, many victims. They went through
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: unimaginable suffering torture in his underground torture chamber that his
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: wife never noticed, and he, by the way, is made
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: at least one million dollars reportedly. Hey, let me save us.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Guess while I'm talking about these are real serial killers? Okay?
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: His wife didn't notice the underground sex and murder dungeon
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: in her home, and she's reportedly made a million dollars
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: sum for a documentary with quotes about her life and
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: the trial and so forth. Asa Ullerup is her name.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know about her, but I have no doubt
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: that his children had no idea that Hureman was a
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: serial killer and are likely going through what you're talking about.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it's bizarre
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: and hard to understand, but is real. Okay, listen, do you.
• 15:50
  Speaker 10: Want to stand up by cleaning guilty to a charge
• 15:52
  Speaker 10: that's the same as you're the god trial and the.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Found guilty of that charge.
• 15:56
  Speaker 10: Yes?
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: Sure?
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: Do you want to stand up by cleaning guilty of
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: waving a number of very important rents.
• 16:01
  Speaker 13: Rex Yeerman will be held responsible for the nineteen ninety
• 16:05
  Speaker 13: three murder of Sondra Castia, the nineteen ninety six murder
• 16:10
  Speaker 13: of Karen Vergatta, the two thousand murder of Valerie Mack,
• 16:15
  Speaker 13: the two thousand and three murder of Jessica Taylor, the
• 16:19
  Speaker 13: two thousand and seven murder of Maureen brainer Barnes, the
• 16:24
  Speaker 13: two thousand and nine murder of Melissa Bartholemy, the June
• 16:28
  Speaker 13: two thousand and nine murder of Megan Waterman, and the
• 16:32
  Speaker 13: September twenty ten murder of Ms Costello.
• 16:36
  Speaker 7: The girl runs out of the house naked and is
• 16:40
  Speaker 7: running in front of the garage, and now the witness says, hey,
• 16:45
  Speaker 7: shouldn't we be taking her? Something wrong here? And the
• 16:48
  Speaker 7: driver tells her not, They're just playing a game.
• 16:51
  Speaker 11: Leave it.
• 16:52
  Speaker 10: The Go Go Beach tasks for searches more than three
• 16:54
  Speaker 10: hundred and fifty electronic devices before finding the blueprint document
• 16:58
  Speaker 10: on a hard drive in the basement of human's home.
• 17:00
  Speaker 10: The document includes a checklist of supplies like robes, saws,
• 17:04
  Speaker 10: and surgical drapes. Another checklist includes tasks to complete before, during,
• 17:09
  Speaker 10: and after the killings, as well as practical lessons for
• 17:12
  Speaker 10: next time.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Along the lines of what the Victoria of Usquez is
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: writing about in this amazing new book, The Death Row Club.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: They say fresh and unforgettable. Okay, it's definitely unforgettable. I
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: agree with that. But another real life example of this
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: a woman joining us right now. Her name Francine Bardol,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: who knew Ted Bundy very well. And actually brace yourselves
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: because normally I would be trying to accuse her of
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: child neglect. Her son in Bundy's girlfriend and son. Her
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: son and Bundy's girlfriend's son were best friends. Bundy would
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: take the two boys to movies and the pool. Ted
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Bundy taking your child to movies and a pool party.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: She's also with cold case solutions and resources. Frank sane,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, do you ever just want to go? What
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: was I thinking? But how could you know?
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: I didn't know.
• 18:38
  Speaker 14: He was very.
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: Smart. He presented himself well. He was very good with
• 18:48
  Speaker 6: the kids. He was he really was really good with them.
• 18:52
  Speaker 6: And he used to sit when he come home to
• 18:55
  Speaker 6: pick up Josh because I was pretending Josh. We'd sit
• 18:58
  Speaker 6: and talk for a long time. He would talk about
• 19:01
  Speaker 6: law school. I was interested in law school. He was
• 19:05
  Speaker 6: very a Stute, very good listener, and he was handsome
• 19:09
  Speaker 6: and he was endearing. And I remember myself, well, you.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Think he's handsome because he looks like a demon to me.
• 19:17
  Speaker 6: He didn't.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I've interviewed I believe every living victim of Ted Bundy's
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: and the stories they have told me on and off
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: air are blood curling. You do know he had sex
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: with a woman's skull, right, Oh?
• 19:33
  Speaker 6: Absolutely, I do know all about him.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. And you do know that after he would
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: kill the victims, he would bathe their bodies and do
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: their hair and put makeup on them. Yes, I do, okay,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: just making sure you knew that. Okay, tell me a
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Bundee story.
• 19:51
  Speaker 6: Well, he would take my son and josh swimming. He
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: was he went to law school at the University of Utah,
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: and the allowed them access to the Fort Douglas swimming pool.
• 20:03
  Speaker 6: And my son was I think he's six maybe as
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: I was recalling it, and Joshua was about the same age,
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: and he'd take them swimming, and they like going swimming.
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: I mean, not everybody had a swimming pool back in
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: those days, and that was in like seventy four, and
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: so they'd go and then one day, my son came
• 20:19
  Speaker 6: home and he said, I don't want to go swimming
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: with Ted anymore. And of course I was kind of concerned,
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: thinking maybe Ted had, you know, touched him or been
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: inappropriate with him, and I said, well why not, and
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: he goes, well, he keeps playing this game called shark
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: and he keeps biting me. And as you know, that's
• 20:42
  Speaker 6: how Ted was convicted based on his bite marks. And
• 20:47
  Speaker 6: so as I think about it now, it was totally
• 20:51
  Speaker 6: surprising because the boys loved going with him, and he
• 20:53
  Speaker 6: was always good with them, but had no idea my
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: son was going to be an appetizer. And then there
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: were when he'd take them to the movies. That driving
• 21:02
  Speaker 6: movies were big back then, and he took them to
• 21:05
  Speaker 6: the movies and he'd leave and he'd tell the boys,
• 21:07
  Speaker 6: I'm going to the snack bar, but I'll be back,
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: you know. You guys wait, and he wouldn't come back,
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: and so they'd get the movie get over and they
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: go out looking for him. And my son Larry said
• 21:18
  Speaker 6: that he'd see that he saw Ted standing by the
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: women's restroom door, watching the women leaving, and he thought
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: that he was just young, he was just little. He
• 21:27
  Speaker 6: couldn't understand why he wasn't at the snack bar getting candy,
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: and so that was kind of concerning and the other
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: thing that kind of bothered me, but I didn't give
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: it much thought because I babysat Josh. His mom, who
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: Ted was living with, asked if I could tend Josh
• 21:48
  Speaker 6: well her and Ted would go waterskiing, and I cour
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: say yes, and that was just fine. But she'd sometimes
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: call and say, oh, never mind, he didn't come home
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: last night, and we're not going and he takes off
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: sometimes and he doesn't come home for a while, and
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: she was speculating perhaps it was because he'd go visit
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: his mother or just do something like it was normal,
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: you know, for him to do that sort of thing.
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: And I didn't think a lot about it, i you know,
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: because I didn't give it a lot of thought. But
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: I do recall one time she had to work a
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: little bit later she asked me if I could bring
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: Josh back home and Ted was there and drop him
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: off because she's going to be later. So I did
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: take him home and I remember knocking and knocking on
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: the door. He didn't answer the door, and I thought,
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: I wonder if he's really home or not. And all
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: of a sudden I saw that he just peeked out
• 22:46
  Speaker 6: of the curtains, just a peeking, and then he opened
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: the door and it was pitch dark in the house.
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: And that was the first time I felt really uneasy.
• 22:57
  Speaker 6: Was I didn't feel good about how the house was
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: so dark and leaving Josh there. But Josh acted like,
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: you know, not a big deal, and that bothered me.
• 23:08
  Speaker 6: And then later on Larry would say, that's my son,
• 23:11
  Speaker 6: and he'd say, you know, sometimes when Ted would get
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: home after a weekend, he would want it to be
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: totally quiet. He didn't want any noise. The house was
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: just really, you know, kind of it wasn't all it
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: was kind of dark, and he would want his food
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: delivered to his door, so Leslie would that was the
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: girl he was living with, would take the food to
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: the door, the bedroom door where Ted was staying, as
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: you leave it there and he'd eat it. And he
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: was like that for a couple of days. So those
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: were kind of strange things, you know, But honestly, there
• 23:47
  Speaker 6: was nothing I could think about. There was one thing
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: that was a little strange. My son got mad because
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: he had to do some chores, and so he ran
• 23:56
  Speaker 6: away from home. He's six, maybe seven, and I I
• 24:00
  Speaker 6: couldn't find him, and Ted offered to help find him,
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: and Ted did find him and my son, you know,
• 24:06
  Speaker 6: he kind of got on my son about doing that,
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: and he took my son's bike. Ted a little bike,
• 24:11
  Speaker 6: and he took it out of his trunk of the car.
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: And in a Volkswagen, the trunk is in the front
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: and he walked around to let my son out of
• 24:18
  Speaker 6: the car. But I remember my son said, oh, he
• 24:22
  Speaker 6: couldn't get out of the car by himself because the
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: door handle was missing. So I didn't know anything about
• 24:29
  Speaker 6: this kind of thing. I thought, well, you know, it
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: wasn't you know, not a big deal, I guess, But yeah,
• 24:34
  Speaker 6: he would remove the door handle so he victims could
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: not escape.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: To Dave mac Crime Stories investigative reporter The Rousses, Ted Bundy,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: all of the serial killers used to snare their victims
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: or very often very intricate Ted Bundy would use a
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: fake sling or cast to approach women and act like
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: he was disabled because of the injury, then use that
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: cast or sling on them to quiet them. As you
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: just heard from Fransine bardole in some of his earlier victims.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: He would approach them in that VW. They got in,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: but they couldn't get out. And that is exactly what
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: her little son was describing.
• 25:30
  Speaker 10: It's so shocking to hear her describe that her son
• 25:35
  Speaker 10: was in a trap vehicle, a vehicle that Ted Bundy
• 25:39
  Speaker 10: used to trap his Corey and to keep them there.
• 25:44
  Speaker 10: I was thinking you were talking about Ted Bundy with
• 25:47
  Speaker 10: his arm in the sling. I was thinking of Janice out.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 25:51
  Speaker 10: He asked her to help him put you know, his
• 25:55
  Speaker 10: wrapped on the top of the car, you know, because
• 25:57
  Speaker 10: he couldn't get it on top of the bug. And
• 25:59
  Speaker 10: next thing she was gone. He had his arm in
• 26:01
  Speaker 10: a sling. He used crutches too, Nancy, and would just
• 26:06
  Speaker 10: find any means necessary to get that person, the victim,
• 26:10
  Speaker 10: in the car. And once they were in the car,
• 26:13
  Speaker 10: that was it.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 26:14
  Speaker 10: It was the fact I got chill bumps when she
• 26:17
  Speaker 10: said that the handle was missing on the inside. You know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 10: he oftentimes took the front seat, passenger seat out of
• 26:25
  Speaker 10: that bug to be able to control the victim. Even
• 26:29
  Speaker 10: more so, the whole idea is just shocking to me.
• 26:33
  Speaker 10: I can't imagine what she goes through thinking about her
• 26:36
  Speaker 10: son being in the physical location where victims spent their
• 26:42
  Speaker 10: last living moments.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: That's right, Dave Matt. When police pulled him over in Utah,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: they found handcuffs, ice, pit, crowbar, garbage bags, ski mask
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: in the VW. He often drove a vwying it in
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: multiple ways to make it easier for him to snare
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: and murder his victims. Straight back out to Victoria Vesquez, Victoria,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: we're talking about real life serial killers. I want to
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: talk about your book, which is really fantastic. Now your
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: premise is about you, said Nicola. I wish you hadn't
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: said that, because when I read your book, I called
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: her in my mind Nicola, And you gave me a
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: flashback to when I read every single Harry Potter book
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: to the children when they were a little out loud,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: and I thought it was Hermiani, and then I found
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: out it was Hermione. It ruined everything. Okay, so the
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: whole way, Nicola. And you just said Nicola. Okay, go ahead,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: tell me all about Nicola.
• 27:50
  Speaker 12: First of all, it's not just you, Nancy. I have
• 27:52
  Speaker 12: met many people who call her Nicola, so not just you.
• 27:57
  Speaker 12: So Nikola is a elementary school teacher kind of similar
• 28:03
  Speaker 12: to me. I teach middle and high school and she
• 28:06
  Speaker 12: lives in a very small town in upstate New York,
• 28:09
  Speaker 12: a town where everybody knows everybody. Her father owns the
• 28:14
  Speaker 12: hardware store. He's really loved in the community. Everybody trusts him.
• 28:19
  Speaker 12: And then one day a true crime show comes to
• 28:21
  Speaker 12: town called to Catch a Killer. And in this true
• 28:24
  Speaker 12: crime show a woman who is a criminal defense attorney
• 28:30
  Speaker 12: turned reality TV show host. She is trying to catch
• 28:36
  Speaker 12: the elegant Creek Ripper, who is the killer that terrorized
• 28:40
  Speaker 12: their small town for so long, and she's doing it
• 28:43
  Speaker 12: with the assistance of her father, Tom Woods, who is
• 28:46
  Speaker 12: a convicted serial killer on death row. And so they
• 28:51
  Speaker 12: managed to catch the elligant Creek Ripper, who is Nikola's father,
• 28:54
  Speaker 12: and that is where Nichola's problems begin. She is shunned
• 28:58
  Speaker 12: by her community, she has fire from her job, the
• 29:01
  Speaker 12: bank is threatening to foreclothes on her house. When she
• 29:04
  Speaker 12: receives an invitation to the Death Row Club, which is
• 29:07
  Speaker 12: a secret retreat for the adult children of serial killers,
• 29:10
  Speaker 12: and at first this seems like the solution to all
• 29:12
  Speaker 12: her problems. Finally she is going to be surrounded by
• 29:15
  Speaker 12: people just like her who can understand what she's going through.
• 29:19
  Speaker 12: But then a stranger appears on their doorstep and a
• 29:21
  Speaker 12: member goes missing, and they are left to wonder could
• 29:24
  Speaker 12: one of them be following in their family's footsteps.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: because you made my mind go off to Murders Only
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: in the Building, you know, with Martin Shot and Steve
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Martin and Selena Gomez. Selena Gomez, as you know, kind
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: of like leads this podcast and they end up solving
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: true crimes. It's amazing, and I've had a lot of
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: bonding time with my son watching Murders Only in the Building. Okay, wait,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: what does that say we watch murders only in the building.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: My daughter and I watched Dexter. Okay, I need to
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: rethink my children's program me in our home. But so
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: that premise is, it's the adult daughter Nikola Fisher. Dad
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: owns a hardware store, small community, A lot of us
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: can identify with that, and then he is outed as
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: a notorious serial killer. Then she gets hooked up with
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: a podcaster. Tell me that part again.
• 30:33
  Speaker 12: Yeah, so the podcaster is the one who ultimately is
• 30:37
  Speaker 12: responsible for her father's arrest, which is terrible because Nicola
• 30:42
  Speaker 12: thought that this girl was her friend and they were
• 30:44
  Speaker 12: like working together, and then it turns out no, she
• 30:47
  Speaker 12: was actually after her dad. She suspected that Nicola's dad
• 30:51
  Speaker 12: was the killer all along. So Niicola feels betrayed. So yeah,
• 30:56
  Speaker 12: and then she gets this invitation, and of course who
• 30:59
  Speaker 12: is at the retreat but this podcast or this true
• 31:02
  Speaker 12: crime host Greer, So she has to figure out if
• 31:06
  Speaker 12: she can trust Greer again or if they are enemies.
• 31:10
  Speaker 12: So you have a little bit of tension there too.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: This is an amazingly intricate plot, but it just flows
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: so quickly. You just go from page to page because
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: you want to know what happens. I'm not going to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: give away the end, but Chris McDonough joining us. Chris
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: McDonough veteran homicide detective with over three hundred homicide investigations
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: under his belt, working at and advocating for the Cold
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Case Foundation. He is the star. This is where I
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: found him of the interview room on YouTube. Can we
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: talk about Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer for just
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: one moment? First of all, listen to.
• 31:49
  Speaker 14: This listen all your statements, each one of them, and
• 32:07
  Speaker 14: I'm really sorry everyone of her.
• 32:14
  Speaker 15: My safety was shattered as a masked man DiAngelo, yielding
• 32:19
  Speaker 15: a knife, told me he would kill me if I
• 32:22
  Speaker 15: didn't do what he demanded. As I lay helpless or
• 32:26
  Speaker 15: sat tied, gagged, blindfolded and naked in the cold December night,
• 32:32
  Speaker 15: waiting for what unthinkable act he would violate me with. Next,
• 32:37
  Speaker 15: he tormented me, and he told me over and over
• 32:41
  Speaker 15: again he would kill me, and I believed him at
• 32:47
  Speaker 15: three different times that night I thought I was going
• 32:51
  Speaker 15: to die.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at ABC and KXTV, you know,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: no one within his circle suspected. The Golden State killer
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: was Joseph DiAngelo, a former cop as I recall, at
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Oxford PD and another PD who's actually on the police force.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: And he was so normal that when they came to
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: arrest him, as I recall, he went, I've got arrest
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: in the oven. So that doesn't have to me of
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: the normal sea the seeming normalcy that Victoria Vesquez is
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: describing when it's really a serial killer. Have you ever
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: experienced that dichotomy?
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, this is why this is so fascinating with
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: these types of personalities that are the doc was talking about.
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: There's so many compartments, but the first three are our
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: you know, our private life, our secret life, and our
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: public persona that is projected. And I did an interview
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: with Wesseley Allen Dodd in nineteen ninety two, who is
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: on death Row, and before the interview he had sent
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: me a letter and I have that letter actually right
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: behind me in the know the shelf here. Long story short,
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: it's Christmas Eve and he's writing me a letter about
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: our upcoming visit and he signs off by saying happy Holidays.
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: And this is a gentleman. You know, this is obviously
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: a monster. And that's what I love about Francine. I mean,
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: she just told us a story about, you know, having
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: an interaction with Ted Bundy. Yet that inspired her ultimately
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: become to become a very famous forensic scientist, which you
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: know about her background. But that's who they have to convince. First,
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: their families. They have to convince their friends and their
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: neighbors around them like chameleons, and that way they can
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: blend in and do what they need to do in
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: that other compartment.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Mica Friend saying Bordeaux speaking of what you do with
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: your life after this incident, like your life after you
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: realized you unwittingly let Ted Bundy be around your baby
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: with no idea. He was that cunning and that charming,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't just you he fooled. He fooled everybody
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: around him. Everyone, But you go on. You're with cold
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: case solutions and resources. You're a DNA expert, you're a
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: crime scene investigator and a forensic specialist. Did that metamorphosis
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: have anything to do with Bundy?
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: I think to some extent it did, because I remember
• 35:51
  Speaker 6: as I was growing up, you know, a serial killer
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: looked like a serial killer, you thought, and this is
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: not what Ted looked like. Not only that, but Utah
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: is where he was at, is a Mormon community. It's
• 36:04
  Speaker 6: a Mormon state, and he got baptized in the Mormon
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: church that made him endearing. He also got involved with
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: politics that made him credible. He was going to law school.
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: I mean, there was all these things. And this is
• 36:16
  Speaker 6: what serial killers, I believe, do, is they try to
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: fit in as best they can and look his benign
• 36:21
  Speaker 6: him as they possibly can. And I remember thinking about
• 36:26
  Speaker 6: when this happened, it was very shocking to me because yeah,
• 36:30
  Speaker 6: they when they broke the news that they had pulled
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: him over in the Volkswagen and they said Theodore Bundy.
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: I didn't that didn't click with me. And I looked
• 36:38
  Speaker 6: at the screen and I said, oh my god, that's Ted.
• 36:42
  Speaker 6: Shocked me. Even Leslie shocked her. She got out real fast.
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: And then I got thinking about how are they going
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: to catch him, What's going to happen. And as time
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: went on and I started learning about evidence, and I
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: started learning about DNA, and I looked at some of
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: the photographs from the sorority failings. I thought, there is
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: so much, so much evidence there that has such great
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: DNA on it. It's too bad DNA wasn't you know,
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: around at the time, and because there was just so
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: much stuff that you could have gotten things from. And
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: I really became interested in. What I do is I
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: extract the biological material from items of evidence so that
• 37:27
  Speaker 6: it could be DNA tested, and I sent it off
• 37:30
  Speaker 6: to forensic collabs to do that. My specialty is getting
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: the DNA out And every item is so unique and
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: it's really interesting. It's kind of like where I'm going
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: to focus on. And I like to look at the
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: pictures of the crime scene, and I can see at
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: the crime scene this would be a really great item
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: of evidence. And as I looked at the pictures of
• 37:50
  Speaker 6: DNA or of evidence from Ted Bundy stuff, Boy, that
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: was a gold mine. It really was. And that's I
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: think it did. You know, I want to go to
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: law school, but I kind of went a different way
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: and got into working in the criminal justice system. I've
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: gone just about every way through the criminal justice system
• 38:12
  Speaker 6: there is, and I ended up doing what I'm doing now.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Friend, Saint Barnault, the Lord called you in a different direction,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Thank goodness, Chris mcdona. Was there any event in your
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: life the way Vesquez describes what happened to Nicola and
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: the Death Row Club that turned you toward becoming a
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: homicide detective?
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, actually there was Nancy like you, not to the
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: extreme that you've had to experience. But my then three
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: year old son was almost kidnapped sidewalk out in front
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: of our house, and I witnessed the door of that
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: vehicle open and I chased after that suspect. Long story short.
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: I wasn't smart enough back then to get them played
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: as a vehicle, but I made a deal with God,
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: I should. If you let me, you know, hunt these
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: people down, I will do it for the rest of
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: my life. And here I am forty four years later,
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: still talking about predatorial behavior.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: You know, Chris McDonough, as long as I have known you,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I did not know that about you.
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that was my foundation. That was nineteen eighty one
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: and eighty two is when i'd gotten law enforcement.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: And you're still doing it. You know. Occasionally I get,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: you know, extremely weary with the crush of murder and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: mayhem and just pure hate that many of our cases involve.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: But I remember what I get like that. I remember
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Keith and those big blue eyes, my fiance that was murdered,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and I feel like I can't quit. Victoria Vesquez, your book,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: at times lighthearted, The Death Row Club is really striking
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: a chord, as you can see tonight. I hope that
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Nikola goes on like McDonough, like Francine and so many
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: others to do amazing things. Translation, you got to write
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: a sequel, guys, if you haven't already read it, The
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Death Row Club. It's amazing and for those of us
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: in our business, it hits on so many different levels.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: The Death Row Club by Victoria Vasquez. It's a psychological thriller,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: and I mean that in the best sense. Thank you,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Victoria and to my awesome and amazing panel. Tonight, we stop,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: as we always do, to remember an American hero Officer,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Dominic Francis Bluffton, PD, Ohio, killed in the line of
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: duty after devoting nearly twenty years of his life to
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: protecting and serving, leaving behind wife Ricky and two children,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Blake and Taylor. American hero Officer Dominic Francis. Thank you
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: to our guests, but especially to you for being with
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: us tonight. You see Grave signing off for tonight, but
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: I'll see you tomorrow night, God willing, and until then,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: good night friend,