Latest / The MOOD Podcast / The Creative (de) Coupling - Josiah Gordon, E067

Transcript

The Creative (de) Coupling - Josiah Gordon, E067 · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Matt Jacob: Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time.
• 0:05
  Matt Jacob: I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation.
• 0:10
  Matt Jacob: And our guest today is Josiah Gordon, an exceptional creative with a wide-ranging portfolio that spans photography, filmmaking and generally storytelling.
• 0:20
  Matt Jacob: Known for his innovative style and deep exploration of themes such as art, human connection and nature, josiah pushes the boundaries of visual storytelling with an approach that blends technical skill with soulful reflection.
• 0:34
  Matt Jacob: His work has taken him across the globe, where he captures not just images but emotions and real, meaningful encounters, and in this episode we explored Josiah's unique creative philosophy and how he navigates the tension between artistry, audience capture and commercial demands.
• 0:53
  Matt Jacob: We discussed his storytelling techniques, his dabbles in filmmaking, the transformative power of travel on his creative vision and how moments of challenge or joy can lead to personal breakthroughs.
• 1:07
  Matt Jacob: We also explored what makes him happy above any photography pursuits and touched what mastery really means, how to become a savant and how future generations of photographers can tap into their creative powers.
• 1:22
  Matt Jacob: It was such a privilege to have Josiah on the show tap into their creative powers.
• 1:26
  Matt Jacob: It was such a privilege to have Josiah on the show.
• 1:27
  Matt Jacob: I've been a fan of him for such a long time and I hope you find the conversation as fascinating as I did to tap into his mindset as such an incredible artist.
• 1:35
  Matt Jacob: So now I bring you Josiah Gordon.
• 1:38
  Matt Jacob: Just hi, gordon, welcome to the Moon.
• 1:52
  Matt Jacob: Podcast.
• 1:52
  Matt Jacob: Thank you.
• 1:53
  Josiah Gordon: It's so good being here.
• 1:55
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, we finally got you here, yeah.
• 1:58
  Josiah Gordon: And what brings you to Bali?
• 2:00
  Josiah Gordon: Mostly visiting friends.
• 2:01
  Josiah Gordon: I have a lot of friends here over the years that I've been coming, and then also I just did a trip to Rajahampat, so it was just a mixture of the two.
• 2:12
  Matt Jacob: Nice, rajahampat, special place, very special place.
• 2:15
  Matt Jacob: Fertile waters, yes, and protected to some extent, right.
• 2:22
  Josiah Gordon: There's some nice biodiversity protection.
• 2:23
  Josiah Gordon: It's actually very well protected yeah um, from what I've seen, um, no, fishing, no, I mean, the locals do, but very conservatively.
• 2:30
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, um, and and actually, from what I've noticed, the locals are, are very conscientious about how they and they and they've been like that for centuries um, like, for example, there's a they, they cultivate sea cucumbers in in certain areas and they'll, they'll mark off islands.
• 2:50
  Josiah Gordon: So it'll be like three years to cultivate sea cucumbers on this island and then they don't touch it for years and then they'll go to the next one.
• 2:57
  Josiah Gordon: So they, they, they already have a pretty environmentally conscious way of doing things there, and it's even more protected now by the government, because I, I would, I've been diving all around the world and I would say it's the most incredible.
• 3:13
  Matt Jacob: Um, yeah, yeah, I have to agree with you on that, definitely my number one place I've been to underwater.
• 3:18
  Matt Jacob: But we're going to get to your underwater antics later on.
• 3:22
  Matt Jacob: I wanted to start by something I think I saw on one of your platforms or some of your Instagram posts, which I like the way you either talk personally or you explain the situation with what you're doing.
• 3:35
  Matt Jacob: I think I saw on there how you described yourself as and maybe even your profile, but you described yourself as a professional button pusher.
• 3:42
  Matt Jacob: Yeah right, yeah, tell, expand that for me, elaborate for me what you do and and kind of why you do it well, yeah, I'm.
• 3:50
  Josiah Gordon: Uh, so I'm a photographer.
• 3:51
  Josiah Gordon: Um, I've been doing it, man, maybe close to 15 years now, if you, if you include everything.
• 4:01
  Josiah Gordon: Um, since the time I first picked up a camera.
• 4:04
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and I've always enjoyed art.
• 4:08
  Josiah Gordon: As a kid I I collected nat geo magazines.
• 4:12
  Josiah Gordon: I had a little stack of them in the corner and I would never read them, I would just look at the pictures and picture books, like just anything that had pictures.
• 4:20
  Josiah Gordon: I always loved it.
• 4:20
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and then I picked up a camera, had a little point and shoot and just loved it, had it everywhere with me everywhere I went and going into college I was studying public communication and I was a photographer at that time in the sense that I still had my camera everywhere I went.
• 4:48
  Josiah Gordon: It's what I did in my free time, but I never really saw it as a career I could pursue.
• 4:53
  Josiah Gordon: It just didn't really register that that was something that I could do because I thought I needed a real job and I didn't even know what that meant or looked like.
• 5:02
  Josiah Gordon: And then, slowly through during college, I was getting small, small jobs here and there doing photography and that turned into yeah, that just slowly turned into a career.
• 5:16
  Josiah Gordon: I dropped out of college and started pursuing that, and then I guess where the professional button presser comes in is.
• 5:26
  Josiah Gordon: I've just always loved humor, and so it's just a reminder not to take things seriously and not to take myself too seriously and push people's buttons as well as the cameras, push other people's buttons?
• 5:42
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, exactly, I think you also described yourself having a fun meter, or your friends describe you as having a yeah Pushing other people's buttons.
• 5:44
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, exactly, I think you also described yourself having a fun meter, or your friends describe you as having a fun meter.
• 5:47
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, I have my one of my best friends.
• 5:51
  Josiah Gordon: He told me Josiah has a fun meter and it always needs to be in red and if it's not, there's a problem, and he's going to make it a problem.
• 5:59
  Josiah Gordon: Too much fun, is there such a thing?
• 6:08
  Matt Jacob: yeah well no, according to my other friends, yeah, but so when?
• 6:10
  Matt Jacob: When do you get serious?
• 6:11
  Matt Jacob: You know, if I, if I look at a lot of your work which has so much meaning and emotion in it, a lot of it very, um, not serious, but there's some drama in there, there's.
• 6:23
  Matt Jacob: I mean, if I was, we would take one of the most amazing short films I've seen, in Angelita.
• 6:28
  Matt Jacob: That is something that isn't necessarily fun on the outset.
• 6:32
  Matt Jacob: There's layers to it, obviously, and there's a story there.
• 6:35
  Matt Jacob: Where does the fun end and the serious?
• 6:38
  Josiah Gordon: desire begin.
• 6:39
  Josiah Gordon: I think for me, if, when it comes to my work or the stuff that I enjoy doing, if there's not a level of fun involved and for me to enjoy I need to have fun.
• 6:55
  Josiah Gordon: And so if I'm not, if I'm not enjoying it, um, I think it shows in the end product um for anything, right?
• 7:13
  Josiah Gordon: So, um, there, there, I guess there is a cutoff for fun and seriousness.
• 7:19
  Josiah Gordon: When, um, like, once the final product is finished and the viewer is seeing it, um, it tends to be more serious, but the process of getting it was more fun, so, um, I don't know if that's a good answer.
• 7:31
  Matt Jacob: What has that always been you, or is that something you also have to work on?
• 7:35
  Matt Jacob: I mean, I'm talk about this with many artists, and some rely on their own not misery, but traumatic experiences and suffering to to garner some of the most impactful work that they've done, and others are the opposite right, whereas it's just that they believe that internal happiness leads to external success in whatever they might be going.
• 7:55
  Matt Jacob: Is that something you work on or that's just who you are?
• 8:01
  Josiah Gordon: I think emotionality plays a role in anything, whether it comes from happy emotions or sad emotions.
• 8:06
  Josiah Gordon: So I think you can harness both to create equally impressive things.
• 8:13
  Josiah Gordon: Um, I don't, I don't know whether there's a right or wrong way to do that, but I think for me personally um, I don't necessarily, I think that just comes naturally, like if I'm going through a tough time, naturally the stuff I'm doing in those times tends to allude to that, and vice versa.
• 8:35
  Josiah Gordon: But I don't think I fully set out when I'm planning on doing something to portray a certain emotion.
• 8:46
  Josiah Gordon: I think it's just kind of more natural.
• 8:49
  Matt Jacob: Why do you do it in the first place?
• 8:50
  Matt Jacob: What is it about photography?
• 8:52
  Matt Jacob: I know it's a very difficult explanation.
• 8:55
  Matt Jacob: I always struggle with it.
• 8:56
  Matt Jacob: I love pictures right.
• 8:58
  Matt Jacob: I used to collect National Geographic as well.
• 9:00
  Matt Jacob: It's exactly the same thing.
• 9:01
  Matt Jacob: Didn't read, still don't.
• 9:02
  Matt Jacob: I'd rather look at photos than read.
• 9:10
  Josiah Gordon: Why do you think it is that photography you are drawn to photography in the way that you are?
• 9:12
  Josiah Gordon: Um, yeah, it's a good question.
• 9:15
  Josiah Gordon: I I mean simply saying I just like it.
• 9:16
  Josiah Gordon: You know, I think I think I'm, I've definitely been the type of person my whole life that, um, I become very fixated on things, but for short periods of times and then I lose interest in it.
• 9:28
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and that's been throughout my life and even even now, like I, I, I gone, I went, I'm.
• 9:35
  Josiah Gordon: I've been going through a phase where, like, I'm building bookshelves and I'm like I need to fill it up with books and like read all these books and and I'm kind of coming out of that now and I'm like I just spent so much money on books, like I don and like read all these books and and I'm kind of coming out of that now and I'm like I just spent so much money on books, like I don't even care about these books, you know, and so so it's like I have these things, that, um, like I go through phases, but photography's really been the only constant in my life that I haven't lost interest in.
• 10:00
  Josiah Gordon: I've lost interest in types of photography.
• 10:05
  Josiah Gordon: I would say, like this happened during COVID time.
• 10:09
  Josiah Gordon: I had been doing landscape photography for six years at that point and I felt myself burning out.
• 10:16
  Josiah Gordon: And I thought I was burning out on photography and just kind of wanted to switch things up in my life and maybe even choose a different career and started looking into like construction work and that kind of thing.
• 10:26
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and then when COVID hit, I was kind of stuck in one place and it forced me to step outside of my box, cause I couldn't travel and go to landscapes Um, these beautiful landscapes, cause I was in Georgia at the time and just didn't offer offer those types of scenery.
• 10:43
  Josiah Gordon: And so I had to step out of my box and think more creatively, like how I could still take pictures in that time, but it was completely out of the zone that I had been doing it previously.
• 10:56
  Josiah Gordon: And then I fell back in love with it.
• 10:57
  Josiah Gordon: I started shooting film.
• 10:58
  Josiah Gordon: I started messing with like, double like, started getting more technical with the camera gear that I owned and trying different things out, and it made me fall in love with it again.
• 11:09
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and so I I think it's helped that there's so many avenues that you can take within photography and it's not stuck to just one thing, and it allows many, many different ways for creative expression, and so that's one of the reasons that I think I haven't lost interest in it, because if there's something that starts getting boring, then I can just switch over and try something completely new out and feel like I'm starting all over again.
• 11:37
  Matt Jacob: And you still feel like you have that freedom to do that, or the bigger and more successful you become, do you feel a little bit more trapped by that identity or that style that you currently or have had?
• 11:48
  Josiah Gordon: I think I did for a while.
• 11:49
  Josiah Gordon: Um, like I, I felt trapped in landscape photography, for example.
• 11:54
  Josiah Gordon: For a long time.
• 11:55
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and I was I was scared to publish other work that I have been doing that I enjoyed more because I was scared the audience that I had cultivated wouldn't enjoy it, because it was something completely different.
• 12:12
  Josiah Gordon: But as I started incorporating it into the stuff I was publishing, I found that, yes, there was a lull in the beginning of people transferring over to liking the newer stuff that I was putting out, but over time it became part of my identity as a photographer and so now I feel a lot more freedom in experimenting and trying different things out.
• 12:36
  Josiah Gordon: And I think a lot of it is because I feel already established and so if I put something out that people don't enjoy as much, I have a lot of background that people can't just be like, oh man, he sucks, because they can see the other stuff that I've done, even if they don't like a certain thing.
• 12:56
  Josiah Gordon: They just don't like the new thing that I put out.
• 12:59
  Josiah Gordon: So essentially it's like I don't feel trapped because I'm established already as an artist and I'm a lot more what's the right word Confident.
• 13:12
  Josiah Gordon: I'm a lot more confident in what I do, and so I can experiment a lot more because of that.
• 13:19
  Matt Jacob: And you probably have had a loyal audience for a while now.
• 13:22
  Matt Jacob: So that even if you put out some work that maybe some people aren't that happy with they more happy with you you know they will follow you rather than the work person yeah, maybe.
• 13:32
  Josiah Gordon: So I think, I look, I think before I worried a lot more about the people who followed my work more than the work itself, right and and now I've kind of flipped over and so maybe that's the case, but I also like don't care as much you know I mean.
• 13:51
  Josiah Gordon: So I'm just kind of at that point, or it's like um, I'm so appreciative, obviously, for the, the people who do follow my work and have supported me over the years, because I wouldn't be what I am now without those people.
• 14:03
  Josiah Gordon: So it's not a matter of like.
• 14:04
  Josiah Gordon: I don't care about the people who have supported me, it's more so.
• 14:10
  Josiah Gordon: But I care about the work a lot because it's who I am, and so I have to be careful not to lose myself to what people expect of me.
• 14:23
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, and with that work, how much has come from travel?
• 14:28
  Matt Jacob: You've traveled your whole life.
• 14:29
  Matt Jacob: Give us a background how travel and photography have kind of interacted with each other um, yeah, I mean so I, I grew up a international kid.
• 14:40
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and true, yeah, travel has always been a core part of my being.
• 14:47
  Josiah Gordon: Like I've never really had a home.
• 14:51
  Josiah Gordon: I would say, um, like, if you ask me where I'm from, I I always just say where I'm living at the moment, cause I have a difficult time, like, unless you want a 20 minute conversation, when you're just trying to get one sentence from someone you know.
• 15:04
  Josiah Gordon: I just, I just you know, I just say where I'm at now.
• 15:09
  Josiah Gordon: So, definitely, I think growing up that way has allowed me to be on the move a lot.
• 15:21
  Josiah Gordon: You're always experiencing and seeing new and different things and it and it, and it definitely helps a photography career when you're constantly photographing different things and, um, um, different cultures.
• 15:34
  Josiah Gordon: You know, whatever photography style you have, um, it lends itself to that so what?
• 15:40
  Matt Jacob: what style is that?
• 15:41
  Matt Jacob: Now?
• 15:42
  Matt Jacob: How would you define what type of photography?
• 15:47
  Josiah Gordon: I think a mixture of landscape and underwater.
• 15:51
  Josiah Gordon: I mean, it's really just the environment that I'm in.
• 15:54
  Josiah Gordon: I think I just dabble you know, but I personally love.
• 16:01
  Josiah Gordon: Surrealness, I would say, is what I go for and what I try to do.
• 16:07
  Josiah Gordon: Obviously, it all doesn't fall under that, but that's my kind of go-to.
• 16:12
  Josiah Gordon: What I love is a surreal looking photo.
• 16:15
  Matt Jacob: You say that and I think of one of your images and for those that are watching, we'll pull up on screen now but of I don't have it on my phone to show you.
• 16:23
  Matt Jacob: I'm trying to describe it.
• 16:24
  Matt Jacob: Of I don't have it on my phone to show you, I'm trying to describe it.
• 16:27
  Matt Jacob: It might have been carl carl shakur, actually, but it was someone, for looks like they're falling.
• 16:29
  Matt Jacob: I think you're in the salt flats and the reflection and they're almost suspended.
• 16:33
  Matt Jacob: Yeah yeah tell us how you tell me.
• 16:35
  Josiah Gordon: I'm more interested how you, how you created that so yeah, so um, that was my friend clay alive like clay, yeah, yeah super great guy super creative he's on the wall downstairs.
• 16:47
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, he is yeah, he is.
• 16:48
  Josiah Gordon: Um, I had him, we were, we were at the salt flats and, um, yeah, I guess, for those who listening who don't know the bolivian salt flats, it's, it's an area the size of jamaica and if you drive out, the like in certain times of the year after the rainy season, there's about two inches of water that cover the whole surface of this, of this area.
• 17:13
  Josiah Gordon: Why is that big?
• 17:20
  Josiah Gordon: Have a 360 view and you see nothing but a giant mirror, um, on all, on all sides of you, and it really lends itself to just like.
• 17:29
  Josiah Gordon: Whatever the sky looks like is what the ground looks like, and so, just every day is a different experience, because you know, uh, how the cloud patterns are, the sunset that we get, or, um, rainbows, or you know whatever weather patterns you can think of in the sky you're looking at on the ground as well.
• 17:46
  Josiah Gordon: And so, yeah, we went out there and just brought a stool and I just had him lay out on a stool and then I just Photoshopped the stool out afterwards, okay cool, incredible shot.
• 17:59
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, thanks, I think you had a video on there as well.
• 18:01
  Matt Jacob: You can tell I've been scouring some of your platforms recently Of you pointing to.
• 18:07
  Matt Jacob: I think you got it live on video of a lightning bolt.
• 18:10
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, was that the same trip?
• 18:13
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, well.
• 18:14
  Josiah Gordon: I've been there I don't know if it was the same one.
• 18:15
  Josiah Gordon: I've been there three times now, two times, I don't remember but every time I spend about two or three weeks there and I'll just stay on this hot flats the whole time.
• 18:25
  Josiah Gordon: Incredible, but yeah, I mean just the weather conditions are crazy, like lightning, storms off in the distance, and those reflect onto the ground as well.
• 18:32
  Josiah Gordon: So it's just, it's otherworldly, man.
• 18:34
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, hi everyone.
• 18:36
  Matt Jacob: Just a really quick break in the podcast to tell you about something that's been a game changer for my own work.
• 18:42
  Matt Jacob: You know I'm all about creating content that's impactful and visually stunning, and a big part of that is thanks to Artlist.
• 18:51
  Matt Jacob: I use Artlist for all the dramatic cinematic music you see in the trailers and that brings all my other videos to life, and their massive library of high quality stock footage and sound effects is honestly a lifesaver.
• 19:03
  Matt Jacob: Whether you're a filmmaker, content creator or photographer, artlist has everything you need to take your projects to the next level.
• 19:11
  Matt Jacob: What I love most about Artlist, though, is how easy it makes finding the perfect asset.
• 19:16
  Matt Jacob: I'm super lazy, and their platform is super user-friendly, and the quality of their music and footage is just top-notch.
• 19:23
  Matt Jacob: It doesn't matter if you're working on a big project or just something small.
• 19:27
  Matt Jacob: Artlist certainly has the range and the quality to make your work really stand out.
• 19:32
  Matt Jacob: Plus, everything is royalty-free, so you can use it however you like without worrying about the legal stuff.
• 19:38
  Matt Jacob: And because I believe in sharing the good stuff, here's a little perk for you Use the link in the description to sign up for an annual plan and you'll get two extra months free.
• 19:48
  Matt Jacob: It's a great deal to keep your creative juices flowing even longer.
• 19:52
  Matt Jacob: All right, let's get back to the episode.
• 19:54
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, I definitely get the surreal nature throughout all of your images.
• 20:00
  Matt Jacob: Actually, where did that intent come from?
• 20:04
  Matt Jacob: I we talked, you talked about your intent almost changing one when you started was more for your audience.
• 20:10
  Matt Jacob: Now it's essentially more for you.
• 20:13
  Matt Jacob: Was that because you, you know, became a little bit unhappy with essentially serving an audience rather than creating what you wanted to create?
• 20:21
  Matt Jacob: Or where did, where did that change in intention come from?
• 20:25
  Josiah Gordon: um, I don't necessarily I wouldn't necessarily say I was unhappy, I think.
• 20:30
  Josiah Gordon: I think it's just part of growing, growing into who you are as a person and understanding, and so I think at the time I was, I was very much so enjoying what I was doing, but I started feeling bored by it or started feeling unfulfilled is a better word.
• 20:48
  Josiah Gordon: So it wasn't necessarily because at that moment I was like, oh, I'm creating for an audience and I don't like it.
• 20:54
  Josiah Gordon: I wasn't having those thoughts.
• 20:56
  Josiah Gordon: It was more so around the idea that I was like what I'm doing right now doesn't feel super fulfilling.
• 21:03
  Josiah Gordon: And yeah, just over time, you just kind of, you become more comfortable.
• 21:13
  Josiah Gordon: As you know, whatever type of art you do, the more you do it, the more you understand and the more, the more you understand what you like and and that comes through experimentation and trying and, and I think over time, I just kind of and and and I and I wouldn't even go as far as saying is it's as it's always going to be this way, in the sense of like, this is the style that I, this is the style that I like right now, this is what I enjoy doing right now.
• 21:36
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and I know that is fulfilling to me in in an artistic way.
• 21:42
  Josiah Gordon: Um and so that's, that is the style that I pursue now because I do find more fulfillment in it.
• 21:49
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, we're getting deep, aren't we?
• 21:50
  Matt Jacob: We're getting quite serious.
• 21:52
  Matt Jacob: I'll try and bring the fun meter back up, but one more question in terms of a philosophical sense, I guess, and I think travel might play into this for you.
• 22:02
  Matt Jacob: It certainly does for me, but I'm interested to hear your take on it.
• 22:06
  Matt Jacob: Does travel really act as a source of your?
• 22:09
  Matt Jacob: It's a two-part question.
• 22:10
  Matt Jacob: Does travel really act as, like, a source of your creativity?
• 22:13
  Matt Jacob: If not, where does that source really come from?
• 22:18
  Matt Jacob: But, more importantly, when you travel and I'm talking about this with many people at the moment, especially groups of beginner photographers who want to do photography in different countries how do you not be a tourist and how do you really kind of challenge the stereotypes of tourism photography, if that makes sense?
• 22:35
  Matt Jacob: Because as we we grow as a population around the world right, we were talking about this earlier with ladak, but you know, different westernized, different cultures, modernized, different cultures start to get used to tourism and tourists.
• 22:51
  Matt Jacob: Does that ever play into your creativity and source of like?
• 22:56
  Matt Jacob: Okay, I need to do something different.
• 22:58
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, I mean, everyone wants to do something different.
• 23:00
  Josiah Gordon: I think, well, I few, few, few answers in there.
• 23:08
  Josiah Gordon: I think, um, as far as, like, how to not be a tourist with photography, I, I think, no matter what, when you go to a new place, you are a tourist.
• 23:18
  Josiah Gordon: You can't, you can't escape that you're, it's not your culture, it's not, it's not what you're used to.
• 23:24
  Josiah Gordon: So there is an experience there for you and you're a tourist to experiencing it.
• 23:28
  Josiah Gordon: Um, uh, so I, I think I don't, I don't think the two are necessarily separatable, separatable, um, but when it comes to creating something new, I mean, I've always looked at it this way Look, creativity is a muscle, yeah, or I've looked at it as creativity being a muscle, and you need to work out that muscle for it to be stronger, and I think everyone's creative for it to be stronger.
• 24:08
  Josiah Gordon: And I think everyone's creative.
• 24:09
  Josiah Gordon: I think everyone was born with a sense of creativity.
• 24:10
  Josiah Gordon: No one is not creative.
• 24:10
  Josiah Gordon: Everyone has it.
• 24:11
  Josiah Gordon: We're all creative in different ways.
• 24:12
  Josiah Gordon: But I think that you can't expect to just be creative just because you have a natural tendency to be creative in the sense of, like, you can't expect to just pick up a camera or pick up whatever you're doing and just be immediately creating something new that no one's ever seen before.
• 24:34
  Josiah Gordon: Um, because you haven't worked out that muscle yet.
• 24:38
  Josiah Gordon: And so there there is a and especially especially in a very convoluted and saturated environment as photography, because there's a lot of people doing it, a lot of people who want to do it.
• 24:54
  Matt Jacob: A lot of fantastic artists doing it and a lot of people who are really good at doing it right.
• 24:59
  Josiah Gordon: And so, in a way, you're kind of competing with all of these people.
• 25:01
  Josiah Gordon: Hey, you're kind of competing with all of these people and I think there needs to be a better understanding that, hey, if I'm just starting out, don't put it on yourself to just expect to be a savant and going to a place and just completely changing the dynamic of what photography looks like on your first go.
• 25:24
  Josiah Gordon: It's like I think, um, I think we need to ground ourselves in understanding that, hey, like, we have a lot of potential, but we're also not that special, you know.
• 25:37
  Josiah Gordon: But that's also comes with that idea that I said in the beginning.
• 25:41
  Josiah Gordon: It's like, hey, just don't take yourself too seriously.
• 25:43
  Josiah Gordon: Like it's like, have fun with it, be, do, do what you love, um, but don't put all these expectations on yourself, especially in the very beginning, when you're just starting out to to, yeah, just change the whole dynamic of what photography looks like, cause it's it's just not going to happen.
• 26:00
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, um, but yeah, I mean like culturally and like back to the going, like experiencing, experiencing new things, and I mean I, I would, I would always consider myself to have more of an adventurous spirit than a creative spirit.
• 26:20
  Josiah Gordon: First, like, I love the sense of adventure.
• 26:24
  Josiah Gordon: I grew up like I love hiking, I'm an outdoors guy.
• 26:27
  Josiah Gordon: Like I love hiking, I love diving, I love spearfishing, I love camping, like I love these things more than I love photography, like I love these things more than I love photography.
• 26:38
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and, but they both lend.
• 26:38
  Josiah Gordon: They both lend themselves very, very well, because usually the places that I'm going to to experience those things are quite beautiful, and so they lend themselves to taking photos that are quite beautiful.
• 26:50
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and then, when you incorporate all the other things that I've learned through time whether it's like incorporating people into it or positions or whatever, it's like you take what is naturally already there and then you incorporate your own artistic vision into it.
• 27:06
  Josiah Gordon: And then you, yeah, and that's been my style.
• 27:13
  Josiah Gordon: So, man, this is a really long-winded answer to that question.
• 27:17
  Josiah Gordon: But, um, but yeah, I think, I think keep your expectations low and, um, do it, do it for enjoyment.
• 27:28
  Josiah Gordon: Like, enjoy what you're doing.
• 27:29
  Josiah Gordon: And I guess for me, when I say enjoy what you're doing, one man's dream is another man's nightmare.
• 27:38
  Josiah Gordon: For me, enjoyment is walking a week to get to a place that's really beautiful, to set up my tent, and then, wow, this is a beautiful photo.
• 27:49
  Josiah Gordon: But that could be not as enjoyable for someone else.
• 27:53
  Josiah Gordon: I think it's a mixture of finding what you enjoy outside of photography as well, um, and then mixing that into what you do in your art, and then the two go hand in hand quite well easy yeah um, you talked about, we talked about style quite a lot.
• 28:12
  Matt Jacob: What about voice?
• 28:14
  Matt Jacob: Is there any kind of narrative or storytelling narrative?
• 28:18
  Matt Jacob: That is a is a constant in your work.
• 28:20
  Matt Jacob: We talk we'll talk about underwater in a minute Um, something that's, that's quite powerful and surrealism.
• 28:25
  Matt Jacob: But is there, is there something bigger that you you tried and say, or do you take it more image by image, series by series, project by project?
• 28:42
  Josiah Gordon: by project.
• 28:42
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, I think it's.
• 28:43
  Josiah Gordon: I mean naturally, no, um, naturally I don't.
• 28:44
  Josiah Gordon: It's more, image by image.
• 28:45
  Josiah Gordon: I would say I don't necessarily come into things, uh, with a preconceived idea narratively, um, I do come into things with a preconceived idea as what I want the photo to look like, but I don't necessarily have a bigger picture story.
• 29:00
  Josiah Gordon: I'm trying to tell through that image, I'm just trying to create an image and and I let whatever that image, um, or I I let, I let the narrative be whatever people who are looking at the image want it to be, because I don't care.
• 29:19
  Josiah Gordon: Like I'm not, I'm not like, uh, I'm not, I'm not the type of person that wants people to get a specific narrative out of what I'm showing them.
• 29:31
  Josiah Gordon: I think that's why art's very subjective, that's why art has value in so many different.
• 29:37
  Josiah Gordon: Like one painting's a million dollars and it's just like one solid color, right, and you look at it and you're like this is worth nothing to me, but something else.
• 29:45
  Josiah Gordon: Someone else can be like, wow, this is profound, and I have no idea why they think it's profound, I think it's dumb, but it's worth something to them, right?
• 29:51
  Josiah Gordon: So it's like, um, so I think I think that's just art in general.
• 29:56
  Josiah Gordon: I think people, people can create their own narratives, um, and I think that's a cool thing, and I don't want to tarnish that by making people see what I need them to see, especially when I don't really have anything.
• 30:10
  Josiah Gordon: I'm trying to tell them, you know.
• 30:14
  Josiah Gordon: So your focus is really more on the process, enjoying that, that, that process of of making photograph, and the aesthetic yeah, I try right I think it's easy to say that, yeah, yeah, obviously, um, obviously things can become stressful and not as fun and these, these kind of things.
• 30:29
  Josiah Gordon: But yeah, I mean that's a goal, right um you always try and pursue that.
• 30:34
  Matt Jacob: How's the fun meter when you don't get the shot that you wanted?
• 30:36
  Josiah Gordon: it's not good, it's it's redlining the other way come on man, um, no, but I mean like I think one thing, one, one thing you find is like um, I I say that, but it's usually not a big deal when I'm, because almost all of my photography like I hate being alone, like this is one of my things, like I don't like to be alone.
• 30:58
  Josiah Gordon: So usually the process is I'm with friends and we're having a good time, and even if we don't get it, of course there's like a ah man, like like you, like in a lot, of, a lot of times there's things that I set up that take quite a long time of prep, quite a lot of time of preparation to get to the point when we take the photo and then it doesn't happen.
• 31:21
  Josiah Gordon: It's like so obviously there there is a side of like ah, but usually through the process it's you're also spending time with friends, which is one of the most important things in my life.
• 31:31
  Josiah Gordon: Is is my community, and so I mean how could I ever say time with community was a bad thing, right?
• 31:38
  Josiah Gordon: So there's always silver linings and always these kinds of things.
• 31:42
  Josiah Gordon: I think when it's for a job and you're getting paid for it, then it's a bit more frustrating, but if there's no one you're doing it for except for yourself, like if you have an image that you want to create and you're doing it for yourself, you're going to have plenty of other opportunities to get it.
• 32:03
  Josiah Gordon: So it's not.
• 32:03
  Josiah Gordon: It's not the end of the world, yeah unless you don't, unless you don't, yeah.
• 32:08
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, I mean like well, I mean, there's always those times like I, you do you know you do.
• 32:12
  Matt Jacob: You always have another chance.
• 32:14
  Matt Jacob: It may not be exactly the same.
• 32:16
  Josiah Gordon: Right, right.
• 32:16
  Josiah Gordon: Well, that's what I was going to say, like I, in different types of photography.
• 32:20
  Josiah Gordon: So, for example, like a street photographer, you see one person walking down the road and that's your guy that you need to get the photo of, right Cause of their look, or whatever, whatever, and you miss it.
• 32:30
  Josiah Gordon: Then it's a lot more discouraging because that opportunity is never going to come again.
• 32:33
  Josiah Gordon: Um, so, of course, but for the style that I don't really do street photography as much I don't do um, I my, my preferred way of shooting is a lot more set up, um, um, and to get all of the elements fit together, um, to take one picture, um, and so for that style, it, you get more chances.
• 32:57
  Matt Jacob: I would say more often than not I get it you talked about community and I've talked about this recently as well in the people you're with on a shoot or on a project, but also the people that you are photographing yourself, who are in front of the camera or behind it, or part of the, the staff that you know, the guides and all these, even just the local population.
• 33:22
  Matt Jacob: They always seem to come or the enjoyment of their company and the interaction with them and getting to know them always seems to come above and beyond the photograph.
• 33:30
  Matt Jacob: But getting a great photo is great, but actually the real fulfillment and satisfaction, enjoyment, comes from those interactions.
• 33:38
  Josiah Gordon: So I definitely feel that yeah, I mean, I mean, but that's why it's important to to like with what I was saying, other, to align with the things that you and to align the things that you enjoy personally with what you're doing, because if they're not aligned, then not getting the photo at the end is a lot more devastating.
• 33:56
  Josiah Gordon: But if the things the two like for example, if I go, if I go hiking for seven days and it's rainy at the end, um, if I don't like hiking that photo would be like, it would be devastating, like I'd spent all of this time to do there, but because I enjoy hiking so much, it's like, oh, I got a great hike out of it.
• 34:14
  Josiah Gordon: You what I mean.
• 34:15
  Josiah Gordon: So it's like you have to, you have to align, like life isn't photography, life isn't art, like it's so much more than that, and and if, and if your whole life is just focused around that, then of course it's going to be a lot more devastating.
• 34:29
  Matt Jacob: I mean, your life's pretty devastating, probably if you're just focused on that for sure a lot of people do focus on on it, and with the advent of social media, you know a lot of photographers these days that is their daily mantra almost is to make sure I'm creating, posting, getting followers, and that becomes their life right.
• 34:52
  Matt Jacob: So there is that danger.
• 34:54
  Josiah Gordon: Well, I mean, there's the business aspect to it, of course, and there's the desire to grow.
• 34:58
  Josiah Gordon: And's, um, I mean the desire to grow goes hand in hand with career.
• 35:02
  Josiah Gordon: So you know, I mean I think that's with any career, like careers can be stressful, especially when you're starting out, or especially when there's a lull, um.
• 35:11
  Josiah Gordon: So that's very natural, but all the more important, why you need to mix it in with other things that you enjoy in life.
• 35:24
  Matt Jacob: And remember, stay grounded to what you do enjoy right, and at least be aware of that.
• 35:27
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, for sure.
• 35:28
  Matt Jacob: Otherwise greed will take over.
• 35:29
  Matt Jacob: Why do you think people you talked about, why you do what you do?
• 35:34
  Matt Jacob: Why do you think people enjoy your stuff?
• 35:36
  Matt Jacob: Why do people follow you?
• 35:37
  Matt Jacob: Do you think people enjoy your stuff?
• 35:38
  Matt Jacob: Why did?
• 35:38
  Matt Jacob: Why do people follow you?
• 35:39
  Matt Jacob: Do you think in your, in your mind?
• 35:42
  Josiah Gordon: well, it's definitely, it's definitely not for my looks, I would say I wouldn't say that good looking lad well, I never post myself, so they wouldn't know.
• 35:55
  Josiah Gordon: I think I for, well, starting out, I was doing what everyone else did and I think the birth of like this travel photographer, when that first kind of happened, there was a lot of excitement around people who were doing that and my life already landed itself naturally to being kind of all over the place, and so I was already kind of in that scene before it became a thing to be in that scene or before it was something that people aspired to do or be, um, because I had always just grown up being all over the place and um, and I think because of that I grew and I and I think and originally I don't necessarily think it was only because of the photography, I think it was also because of the places that I was going to, because I was a landscape photographer and so people wanted to see cool places and things like this, and so, and I think I recognized that over time, where it was like it didn't feel like I was really doing any, contributing anything to the art world, I was contributing more to the travel, travel world, which was fine.
• 37:20
  Josiah Gordon: I just didn't find much fulfillment in it.
• 37:22
  Josiah Gordon: So I grew an audience from that, obviously, and then, ever since I stopped doing it, my audience actually declines every day, the last, I would say, four years.
• 37:40
  Josiah Gordon: When it comes to Instagram and following, I haven't grown at all, and I was only growing when I was doing more of the travel-focused things.
• 37:51
  Josiah Gordon: But the people that have stayed, I think I would assume they follow me because they enjoy my work and I think it's just as simple as that.
• 38:03
  Josiah Gordon: You know, they just enjoy, they enjoy my style, they enjoy what I post.
• 38:08
  Josiah Gordon: Um, I don't know, I don't ever really think of it super deeply.
• 38:12
  Josiah Gordon: You know, it's interesting, I think I I, I just don't put too much thought into it, I would just, it would just be yeah, and there's some assumed like yeah yeah if you like it stay if you don't like it.
• 38:23
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I I feel your pain with the.
• 38:29
  Matt Jacob: Well, it's not a pain, it's just a.
• 38:31
  Matt Jacob: It's just the way it is with followers and certainly all social media platforms, and they change.
• 38:37
  Matt Jacob: If you're talking four years, though, goodness, they've changed so much in just four years.
• 38:41
  Matt Jacob: So I mean, maybe it has something to do with what you're putting out there or the frames you were putting out out there, but I also think it's a lot to do with just the way the platforms are run right oh for sure.
• 38:53
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, there's like algorithms and all of those things um okay, let's go underwater.
• 38:59
  Matt Jacob: Um, real interest to me.
• 39:00
  Matt Jacob: I've been diving most of my life and, uh, I wish I could do more underwater photography.
• 39:05
  Matt Jacob: I I take my camera down every time I dive but, um, I can't do everything all the time, so I'm I.
• 39:12
  Matt Jacob: I mean, I love your stuff.
• 39:13
  Matt Jacob: We'll talk about your book a little bit.
• 39:15
  Matt Jacob: I know that's underwater based.
• 39:16
  Matt Jacob: Let's focus on Angelita first.
• 39:20
  Matt Jacob: So obviously I know what it is and I know what went into it.
• 39:23
  Matt Jacob: I've watched the videos.
• 39:24
  Matt Jacob: I'd like to hear it from you Tell us a story of that, how that came about.
• 39:29
  Matt Jacob: We talked about narratives earlier and storytelling.
• 39:36
  Matt Jacob: Tell us about the concept generation of that and then walk us through or swim us through the process and what it was all about.
• 39:44
  Josiah Gordon: So for so, for years, um, like a lot.
• 39:45
  Josiah Gordon: So, when it comes to the like, the photographers you see on instagram, a lot of us kind of started around the same time together.
• 39:53
  Josiah Gordon: So, like a lot of the bigger photographers that you see right now, we were all romping around together on trips, you know, 2016, 2017, such as, uh, emmet, emmet, sparling, jordan, hammond, chelsea, yamaze, um, I mean, just like the list goes on right, just all these people and, of course, you'll find like there's clicks in all these different things.
• 40:15
  Josiah Gordon: Um, but for the most part, it's a very small community, like a lot of us either know of each other or know each other.
• 40:22
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and have met um, because, especially starting out, companies at that time were doing a lot of group trips, like getting all of these people from all over the place together.
• 40:34
  Josiah Gordon: So it created it created the sense of like.
• 40:38
  Josiah Gordon: Really everyone kind of knows each other.
• 40:39
  Josiah Gordon: Um, what was the question?
• 40:42
  Matt Jacob: again, Um, tell us about Angelita, tell us about the concept.
• 40:48
  Matt Jacob: Right, right, right.
• 40:49
  Matt Jacob: That's what I was getting at.
• 40:49
  Josiah Gordon: So, so, so, when, when, when we were all starting out, um, I was surrounded by a lot of people who did video and photography and, um, we would go on trips and everyone was making like I'm sure you saw at that time, especially like the travel videos, like the montage videos of people going doing stuff, and I have always been interested in video but I could, but I never felt the draw.
• 41:18
  Josiah Gordon: It was very difficult for me to take video for.
• 41:21
  Josiah Gordon: So, for example, like we would, we would do a group trip, everyone's taking clips here and there, and I was only taking pictures and by the end of the trip I was like, oh man, I didn't film anything like, um, because video and photography they're different, but they go hand in hand.
• 41:35
  Josiah Gordon: Like you take a picture, switch over to video really quick, take a video, and I have so many friends who are just so like they don't even think about it, they just do it, and then they'll come with all of these amazing pictures and then have all of these video clips to go with all these amazing pictures, and then I come out of the trip and I just have all these amazing pictures, right, so it's like.
• 41:54
  Josiah Gordon: So, it's like that dynamic of um, uh.
• 41:59
  Josiah Gordon: So I was in that environment and always pressured myself to take more video, but I was never like, I just never really wanted to.
• 42:11
  Josiah Gordon: And so then, so I ultimately just told myself, like I'm just not a video guy, I'm just going to, I'm just going to stick to photography and try my best in that that Avenue, um, and then over time I was, I just had more and more and more draw to it.
• 42:26
  Josiah Gordon: So I was trying to figure out a way where I could do, where I could do, a video with zero experience.
• 42:33
  Josiah Gordon: I'm not a videographer, I don't, I don't, I don't know how to open final cut, like I don't know how to do anything on it.
• 42:38
  Josiah Gordon: I'm just not that guy.
• 42:40
  Josiah Gordon: Um, but all my friends are right, so there was always that pressure, um.
• 42:46
  Josiah Gordon: So finally I was like, okay, I think really the only way I can do it is if I have a shot list and I have, and I go into something and I know exactly what I'm going to shoot and I have everything written down and it's scene by scene, cause I, my brain, doesn't work in the way of taking a bunch of video clips like random ones and then putting them together at the end, because I'm a lot more story driven, which is goes against what I told you earlier with photography, but when it comes to video, I want to tell a story, um, and I never had a story to tell through random clips, uh, and so.
• 43:21
  Josiah Gordon: So I I had been diving in Mexico.
• 43:26
  Josiah Gordon: I went for the first time in 2020, went for a dive, went to this um dive site called Angelita, and it was just like mind blowing what?
• 43:34
  Josiah Gordon: How does this place exist?
• 43:35
  Josiah Gordon: Um, I mean, it's, it's a freshwater, um cave, essentially, uh, cenote, and at the bottom, at 30 meters, there's a, there's a cloud and, uh, it's a, it's hydrogen sulfide and it's what it basically is is like plant matter and trees fall into, fall into the cenote, and the pressure is so high at 30 meters that those that gas can't like escape back up, so it's just kind of stuck there as a cloud, which and it was it's just mind blowing.
• 44:08
  Josiah Gordon: So we did this dive and I was like, wow, this is, this is incredible.
• 44:13
  Josiah Gordon: And I left Mexico still thinking about that dive and I was like, wow, if I was ever going to do a film like that would be a really cool place to do it, because it's just so weird looking, um, and so I completely just wrote a story around that spot.
• 44:28
  Josiah Gordon: I was like I'm, because I wanted the shots to be beautiful, I wanted it to look cool, right, um, so it was like a mixture of focusing on some sort of story to tell but also the environment and and and so, yeah, that was just kind of the birth of that short film and I told my friends about it.
• 44:49
  Josiah Gordon: Luckily they were down, um, cause it was it was.
• 44:52
  Josiah Gordon: It was a hard process, especially like trying to.
• 44:54
  Josiah Gordon: Can I mean, obviously they're all friends, so they were all down, but like convincing people to spend that much amount of time and also not just time like it was not easy as far as just like, yeah, I mean, so it was just like convincing people to do all that stuff from me who's never does video, like it was just like I was like I was like, please, I think I think it'll be cool.
• 45:20
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, exactly, um, but yeah, I mean they were all super down, which I'm so grateful for.
• 45:27
  Josiah Gordon: I mean it would have, it would have never happened if it wasn't wasn't for my friends who were all involved, like they did way more than I ever did.
• 45:34
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and yeah, that was the birth of it, of just like wanting to make something that had a narrative behind it, that looked cool, and a lot of it was taking inspirations from all my friends who have been doing video for so long and creating these beautiful like travel videos and stuff.
• 45:55
  Josiah Gordon: But I just wasn't, I just couldn't, because it, my, my brain didn't work that way, and so so it was inspired by that and led, and now, um, a lot of the work that I do is actually a lot more directorial.
• 46:08
  Josiah Gordon: So, um, really, um, so you know, I I get hired a bit, quite a bit, for directing, like directing things, uh, for commercials.
• 46:20
  Josiah Gordon: Uh, uh, I did a music video, things like that, um, which is cool, cause it was.
• 46:26
  Josiah Gordon: It's totally.
• 46:27
  Josiah Gordon: It went from not any video experience at all to still not any?
• 46:33
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, still not any, just jump video yeah.
• 46:38
  Josiah Gordon: I still can't open final cut, you know, but that's what?
• 46:41
  Josiah Gordon: But this, this is one thing that I really love video for it's um, photography is very solo, in the sense of the work itself.
• 46:50
  Josiah Gordon: At the end, of course, you have your model and, and if you're shooting with a model or a person, so it's you have that dynamic, but at the end it's still your work at the end, um, but with video and this is something that I found doing, angelita, uh, it was color grading.
• 47:10
  Josiah Gordon: Okay, let's, who have my friends really good at color grading?
• 47:13
  Josiah Gordon: Find, find them who can edit, uh, find my friend do this.
• 47:17
  Josiah Gordon: I had my friend, you know, compose the music for it, like he's, he's a composer, um, uh, an actor, you know, like all of these things.
• 47:25
  Josiah Gordon: So it's like bringing in all my friends with all these different capabilities and strong suits and and it kind of becomes a group effort and so music was composed.
• 47:34
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, because I thought that's one of the best.
• 47:37
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, he did so.
• 47:39
  Josiah Gordon: His name's matt morgan.
• 47:40
  Josiah Gordon: Um, he, he.
• 47:41
  Josiah Gordon: The way he made it was.
• 47:43
  Josiah Gordon: I sent him the video and he played the piano over it, and that's how he, that's how he came up with the score for it yeah, no, not artless.
• 47:51
  Josiah Gordon: No, he, he did it all himself and he's incredible um so yeah, the team all coming together.
• 47:57
  Josiah Gordon: The team aspect of it was just so cool, because I'm just such a community guy and I love my friends and I want to be around my friends, and so it created this perfect environment for all of us to come together and just and like.
• 48:08
  Josiah Gordon: I remember that like of course, there was stressors filming it, obviously, um, naturally, but at the end of it it was just such a fun 10 days.
• 48:19
  Josiah Gordon: It was 10 days.
• 48:20
  Josiah Gordon: It was such a fun 10 days because we were all just hanging out with each other and you film I mean, for that video we could only film in the morning, so we spent like two hours in the morning getting ready, doing the filming, and then we'd have the rest of the day.
• 48:33
  Matt Jacob: And you could only film for about 15 minutes of that depth yeah, yeah, yeah and that's all that.
• 48:37
  Josiah Gordon: We got 15 minutes of filming a day, yeah, but it's a two-hour process of getting everything ready, whatever, whatever, um but, at the bottom.
• 48:44
  Josiah Gordon: At the bottom, we had 15 minutes so we we only could shoot like max three clips a day, um, but yeah, I mean, it's just like I, I just loved, I just loved that I love the whole process.
• 48:56
  Josiah Gordon: And and now, um, I, yeah, I love doing video.
• 49:03
  Josiah Gordon: I I've made, I've made more videos, I just haven't posted them um, I, I I've made like seven now I think wow um why haven't you posted them Like legalities?
• 49:17
  Josiah Gordon: People just haven't been released yet.
• 49:20
  Josiah Gordon: I can't do it on my own.
• 49:21
  Josiah Gordon: There's one that I'm super stoked about.
• 49:23
  Josiah Gordon: It's also an underwater one.
• 49:25
  Josiah Gordon: It's shot completely upside down and I think it's so cool, but I can't release it.
• 49:30
  Matt Jacob: You shot it upside down or you flipped it upside down.
• 49:33
  Matt Jacob: I flipped it upside down, so the whole thing's upside down.
• 49:35
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I, you flipped it upside down, I flipped it upside down, so the whole thing's upside down.
• 49:42
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, but I can't release it because, uh, because I was, I was hired to do it and they, they haven't okay, that was three years ago, right?
• 49:44
  Matt Jacob: so it's like angelita was purely personal so.
• 49:47
  Josiah Gordon: So I think, at the end of the day, what I'm trying to get to is, um, just like self-funding more of these things, because what I've realized is, when I'm doing it for other people and companies, I really enjoy it Because, luckily, they've given me the freedom to creatively pursue the things that I want to pursue.
• 50:04
  Josiah Gordon: But it's not mine at the end, which I don't need it, in an ego sense, to be mine, I just want to share it, and I've found that there's a lot of reasons that I can't from the ones that I've been doing.
• 50:19
  Josiah Gordon: So I want to self-fund more, but they become quite expensive.
• 50:22
  Josiah Gordon: Well, they are quite expensive, especially when you have a lot of people involved.
• 50:30
  Josiah Gordon: And, yeah, so it's like a slow process of figuring out, like, I've been working on a feature length movie.
• 50:37
  Josiah Gordon: I would love to do a feature length movie with my friends, right, and like, so I've been working on that.
• 50:42
  Josiah Gordon: I want to do, like, a horror film.
• 50:45
  Josiah Gordon: I just think that would be so much fun, and so, yeah, I've been working on a script for that.
• 50:51
  Josiah Gordon: But, like, these are things that I enjoy and so, like, I'll put time into in between jobs.
• 50:56
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah let's just just um, stay on Angelita a little bit, because I want to express to the audience exactly you know how difficult it was to to make this video a how amazing it came out.
• 51:10
  Matt Jacob: But, um, first of all, what is the story of Angelita?
• 51:14
  Matt Jacob: For those that haven't seen it yet, I will, I'll link the description and people need to go watch it.
• 51:18
  Matt Jacob: But tell us the story and then tell us exactly.
• 51:21
  Matt Jacob: You know the 10-day process of getting that video.
• 51:28
  Josiah Gordon: I think the story well like for me because there's a story personally for me when I was writing it, when I was just like, oh, this could be.
• 51:38
  Josiah Gordon: So I like um, it's the right word.
• 51:42
  Josiah Gordon: I like allegories, and so with most of the video stuff I do I have a personal allegory within the video that isn't very obvious.
• 51:55
  Josiah Gordon: So for me, and and angelita, was just like addiction.
• 52:00
  Josiah Gordon: That was the, that was the premise for me, um, of, uh, someone, someone who becomes addicted and keeps being drawn back by whatever it is that they were addicted by, and eventually losing themselves in it Because at the very end they jump in together into the unknown.
• 52:26
  Josiah Gordon: So it's like a darker theme, but I didn't tell anyone that and most people would see it as like a love story or something like this.
• 52:40
  Matt Jacob: And which is great.
• 52:41
  Matt Jacob: You know whatever you want it to be, yeah, yeah, whatever you want it to be um, but for me that's what it was.
• 52:47
  Josiah Gordon: It was just like a, like a, a short story about addiction and how, how easy it is to lose yourself in it.
• 52:56
  Matt Jacob: Um yeah, that's something that's close to home.
• 52:59
  Matt Jacob: Obviously have you experienced addiction or?
• 53:02
  Josiah Gordon: not, I mean in a way like, uh, like nicotine, for example.
• 53:07
  Josiah Gordon: I, I, that's something I've struggled with throughout my life, um, um, but not in like, tremendously horrible ways of addiction.
• 53:15
  Josiah Gordon: I can, I, I can definitely relate to addiction, um, with with my own personal struggles with nicotine, for example, um and so um it.
• 53:25
  Josiah Gordon: But again, like that's why I say, like, when you asked me earlier, do, does a lot of what you do correlate to emotions that you're feeling?
• 53:35
  Josiah Gordon: And it's like not necessarily.
• 53:36
  Josiah Gordon: And it's like not necessarily.
• 53:37
  Josiah Gordon: It's just stuff that I'm interested in and like how, how it affects people and how.
• 53:42
  Josiah Gordon: So it's like, even like it might not be something that I'm struggling with personally, but it's something that I see and something that I find very interesting.
• 53:51
  Josiah Gordon: So I'll, um, I'll try and write about it or, um, sympathize with it I think it.
• 53:58
  Matt Jacob: With addiction, every everyone suffers with it.
• 54:01
  Josiah Gordon: To some extent right for sure sugar.
• 54:04
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, um, I have an addictive personality yeah, same thing easy.
• 54:09
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, it's a daily battle yeah, yeah, willpower yeah, and then.
• 54:13
  Matt Jacob: So the the process.
• 54:15
  Matt Jacob: We'll keep it short, but the process was and correct me if I'm wrong we've got five days of free dive training and then a test dive the next day, and then it's a matter of how many dives to get the shots.
• 54:30
  Matt Jacob: After that, five, seven days of actual shooting those we shot the whole time.
• 54:36
  Josiah Gordon: But we, but we um.
• 54:38
  Josiah Gordon: We shot in three locations so right, okay, so okay, the um, the, the angelita dive, that one was we had 15 minutes each day, so that was five days just diving there or no more than that was like seven days just diving there and to get those shots.
• 54:55
  Josiah Gordon: And then, um, and then there was another sonote that we shot in with this like incredible light beam, that one you could shoot in for I think it was like two or three hours because we weren't as deep, um, and I I was able to shoot it free diving, so I didn't need to like we were all able to free dive it, um, and it was only like 15 meters, right.
• 55:17
  Josiah Gordon: So it's like we were able to get those shots kind of throughout the day and there wasn't like a nitrogen buildup or anything like that.
• 55:22
  Josiah Gordon: That one was completely dependent on the sun because for the light beam, so as long as the sun was in the sky in that area we were able to shoot, and I think we did that one for two days, um.
• 55:32
  Josiah Gordon: And then there was one other one that was like a really shallow sonote, um, that we did like there was, I think there was a scene where she kind of comes up towards the surface and he's like and that was, um, that was, yeah, that was just in another shallower one.
• 55:47
  Matt Jacob: Um, and that one just took a day, yeah excuse the interruption very briefly, but I'd like to just take a moment to introduce you to a partner that has supported this podcast for a long time now, and it's Yore, a brand that truly stands at the intersection of art and craftsmanship.
• 56:04
  Matt Jacob: Yore offers handcrafted jewelry and wearable pieces of art, some of which are infused with something extraordinary Moonrock.
• 56:12
  Matt Jacob: Yep, you heard it right.
• 56:14
  Matt Jacob: Yorei's unique designs incorporate rocks from the moon into silver and gold, creating really special jewelry that's not just beautiful but otherworldly.
• 56:24
  Matt Jacob: Every piece from Yorei is ethically sourced as well, and it's locally handcrafted, ensuring that you're not just wearing jewelry but an actual story, a piece of art and a connection to something far, far greater.
• 56:39
  Matt Jacob: Whether you're drawn to spirituality, fashion, the art of meaningful adornment or just feeling and looking, epic, Euray offers something truly special.
• 56:49
  Matt Jacob: Plus, they offer free worldwide shipping, making it easier than ever to bring a touch of the cosmos into your life.
• 56:56
  Matt Jacob: As a special offer for my lovely audience of the Mood Podcast, you can click the link below in the description and use the code ARTOFINTENT at checkout to receive a whopping 20% off your first order.
• 57:10
  Matt Jacob: So don't miss this chance to own a real piece of the moon and experience the art of intent with your eight.
• 57:18
  Matt Jacob: Okay, I'm done.
• 57:20
  Matt Jacob: Promise I'll let you get back to it.
• 57:22
  Matt Jacob: Well, incredible vision and I highly encourage everyone to go and watch it.
• 57:26
  Matt Jacob: Actually, I think I saw one coming, because I think I watched it a couple of years or whenever it came out a couple of years ago, and I think Finn sent it to me.
• 57:37
  Matt Jacob: You know, Finn Mattson.
• 57:39
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, yeah, of course.
• 57:40
  Matt Jacob: And then I rewatched it in preparation for this, and I think I saw one of the comments on YouTube about hundreds of comments and one of the comments was wow, I get to watch this for free.
• 57:49
  Matt Jacob: Which is you forget, right, in this world of abundance, we have YouTube, all the social media platforms, all the news platforms, most podcasts.
• 58:01
  Matt Jacob: Well, actually that's not that true, but half podcasts are paywall, half free.
• 58:05
  Matt Jacob: There's so much free content out there and then when we're asked to pay three or four bucks a month, it's like what, what you know?
• 58:11
  Matt Jacob: Um, do you, you know, how do you, how do you approach that?
• 58:16
  Matt Jacob: It was obviously a conscious decision put on youtube, but is that something that's different, moving forward in terms of, you know, want to get my stuff out there for people to watch without worrying about them paying for it, or it's time I get rewarded for this type of stuff?
• 58:30
  Josiah Gordon: I, uh, for me personally, I'm not a businessman, like, I'm very, very, very bad at business.
• 58:36
  Josiah Gordon: Um, uh, I will.
• 58:38
  Josiah Gordon: I think I will always be a starving artist.
• 58:40
  Josiah Gordon: Um, I've just, I've just never.
• 58:43
  Josiah Gordon: It never really computes with me and and, and it would be easy for me to say like, oh, I don't care about money and these things, but it's like that's not true.
• 58:53
  Josiah Gordon: I just don't have a good business mind, don't care about money and these things, but it's like that's not true.
• 58:57
  Josiah Gordon: I just don't have a good business mind.
• 58:58
  Josiah Gordon: And so when people like, oh, like, why didn't you monetize that?
• 59:00
  Josiah Gordon: Or why don't you sell this, I'm like I, either the answer is I'm lazy, or, um, I, I don't know how to do it and I'm lazy, right, so, um, so it's like, yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a possibility.
• 59:16
  Josiah Gordon: I'm not against these things with monetization of things, because I would love to be able to support myself through those things.
• 59:24
  Josiah Gordon: I'm just not good at it.
• 59:25
  Josiah Gordon: And so my natural instinct always is not oh, how can I make money out of this?
• 59:32
  Josiah Gordon: And again, not because I don't care about money, but because that's doesn't.
• 59:37
  Josiah Gordon: That's not how my brain works, that's not how.
• 59:40
  Josiah Gordon: That's not my first thought ever.
• 59:42
  Josiah Gordon: My first thought always is excitement, like oh, I just did this thing, like everyone, please, please, watch it please the experience, the process and then the final product, essentially um and and I and like I guess there is a subconscious hope that money just comes out of it, out of thin air right, I know that feeling.
• 1:00:05
  Matt Jacob: I'll put this out there and then someone would give me money.
• 1:00:07
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah um, so yeah, I mean, that's just like that's always man, and I know from a business aspect that's a horrible way of doing things because uh, yeah, you don't really grow monetarily from doing it that way.
• 1:00:24
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and I'm very aware of that, uh, I'm just not good at it.
• 1:00:30
  Matt Jacob: It's constant balance, isn't it?
• 1:00:32
  Matt Jacob: It's constant, I guess, pendulum swinging back and forth to me and well, I need to pay the bills and therefore I might, might, compromise some of my artistic integrity because I've got to make some sacrifices.
• 1:00:44
  Josiah Gordon: I've got to go and get some money.
• 1:00:46
  Matt Jacob: And then on the other side it's like well, I can only really stay true to my art and my vision by not worrying about the money side of it.
• 1:00:52
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, there's no win-win.
• 1:00:57
  Josiah Gordon: It's such a fine line because it's like there is that side.
• 1:00:59
  Josiah Gordon: But then they're also like, you know, eventually when you start having thoughts of having a family or you know these things, it's like I can skate by on my own and I have for years, and now that I'm getting older, it's like, oh okay, you know the thoughts of family, the thoughts of having children and these kind of.
• 1:01:18
  Josiah Gordon: It's like, oh, okay, you know the thoughts of family, the thoughts of having children and the and these kinds of things.
• 1:01:21
  Josiah Gordon: It's like, um, well, I can't really I, I, I couldn't do that with what I'm doing now, and so I have to, I have to, and it's weird to think about people that don't exist yet as your motivator for doing things.
• 1:01:39
  Josiah Gordon: But I find myself in that position a lot now where it's like trying to be better at business for that, so that ultimately I can have stability when those things inevitably come around in my life, because I'm not ready for it right now financially, um, and I don't want to always say I'm not ready for it.
• 1:02:04
  Josiah Gordon: You know, I want to be ready for it and and I and it, and it gets to that point where it's like, okay, like we need to.
• 1:02:10
  Josiah Gordon: You need to figure this out.
• 1:02:13
  Matt Jacob: I think it's almost a limiting belief as well, a lot of us have with ourselves.
• 1:02:17
  Matt Jacob: And now you talk about creativity.
• 1:02:20
  Matt Jacob: If you believe, everyone's got an element of creativity ingrained in them, it's just a matter of finding that potential.
• 1:02:26
  Matt Jacob: Same with general business skills.
• 1:02:29
  Matt Jacob: Right, there's no one that can't do it.
• 1:02:32
  Matt Jacob: It's certainly not someone who's of decent intellect and traveled the world and met so many people, and it's just maybe trying to tap into that a little bit more.
• 1:02:42
  Matt Jacob: Or or, in my own experience and I I laugh when you said this because I'm a bit lazy as well when it comes to that kind of thing, because I don't really want to do that type of thing right, some people love it.
• 1:02:53
  Matt Jacob: Some people love going to get deals and money and making the next buck or making the next deal, and I I love getting the deal.
• 1:03:02
  Josiah Gordon: You know the process of it though.
• 1:03:05
  Matt Jacob: Nah man, yeah oh yeah, it's a.
• 1:03:09
  Matt Jacob: It's a constant battle.
• 1:03:10
  Matt Jacob: Speaking of deals um, was angelita the kind of birth of your book idea.
• 1:03:15
  Matt Jacob: How did do they relate?
• 1:03:16
  Matt Jacob: Tell us about the book um, I kind of uh.
• 1:03:20
  Josiah Gordon: So when I did that, I think it's like two separate sides of wants for me, like as far as career goes.
• 1:03:30
  Josiah Gordon: So it was like when I did the film, I was like I really want to get into film, I want to, I want to uh, I've never done it before, I want to try something new, I want to see if I can do it.
• 1:03:40
  Josiah Gordon: And then I did it and I was like, wow, I really enjoyed doing that, um, and I would like to do this more.
• 1:03:45
  Josiah Gordon: And so that was that.
• 1:03:47
  Josiah Gordon: And then, and then also because I had such a deep appreciation for the cenotes that I was diving in and I was just like some of my favorite pictures I've taken here, and so then I was so then the same kind of thing I was telling you earlier OK, so I have all of these images that I've been taking.
• 1:04:12
  Josiah Gordon: At that point it was like over a year, all of these images that I've been taking.
• 1:04:17
  Josiah Gordon: At that point it was like over a year.
• 1:04:18
  Josiah Gordon: And then, and then I was like you know, this would be a great opportunity to maybe make a book, because I've always thought about making a book, but I've never really found a way to make a book, where it made sense to make a book in the sense of I have pictures, but from just kind of all over over the place and it's just kind of scattered, and and even though I have a very scattered brain, I like if I'm making something to make sense.
• 1:04:46
  Josiah Gordon: So to me it wouldn't make sense to have a book with just like random photos that I've taken.
• 1:04:55
  Josiah Gordon: Um, at least at this point in my life.
• 1:04:57
  Josiah Gordon: Maybe one day it's like Josiah Gordon's favorite photographs book, right, like you can do that, but I don't think I'm at a point where I could.
• 1:05:07
  Josiah Gordon: I would want to do that and I and so I wanted to really like focus in on something to create a book, but I never really found the time or something that I wanted to do it for.
• 1:05:19
  Josiah Gordon: And then, when I was in, after I had finished the video project, I was like, oh, like, I have so many pictures of the cenotes, I should just keep doing this and I can make a book out of it easy.
• 1:05:31
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and then that ended up being a four-year process, um, and I ended up all the pictures that I had, I scrapped all of them and redid all of them because, um, I I've, I found it's not a narrative, but a style that I wanted to portray for the book.
• 1:05:48
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and the photos that I had taken earlier didn't quite fit that style and so I just reshot them.
• 1:05:54
  Josiah Gordon: This, this basically the same pictures, but just in the photos that I had taken earlier didn't quite fit that style and so I just reshot them Basically the same pictures, but just in the style that I wanted.
• 1:06:01
  Josiah Gordon: And, yeah, that took four years.
• 1:06:02
  Josiah Gordon: Wow, how many visits Over 20.
• 1:06:05
  Matt Jacob: Oh my goodness, to Mexico.
• 1:06:05
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, with the same people, with Chelsea.
• 1:06:09
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, chelsea was there for some.
• 1:06:10
  Josiah Gordon: One of my really good friends, fernanda morales, she's.
• 1:06:14
  Josiah Gordon: She's there in mexico.
• 1:06:16
  Josiah Gordon: Amazing, amazing model um esther abad.
• 1:06:20
  Josiah Gordon: Amazing model um yeah, so I used a lot of the a lot of the same people, um, and that's one thing that's really special to me is, um, all of the people that are in the book are close friends of mine, and and uh, yeah, it's like a collaborative effort, right yeah, that's nice, we, we.
• 1:06:39
  Josiah Gordon: I'm so grateful for them taking so much time, like whenever I came down just like, yeah, let's go do it like it's it's.
• 1:06:46
  Josiah Gordon: So.
• 1:06:46
  Josiah Gordon: It's so nice to have friends like that who are supportive of you and, um, believe, believe in you to do and give, and because time is your most valuable thing, right so for people to give you time for something that you personally have an artistic vision about it means a lot, and so that's been looking back, the biggest gift I've received in all of this is people's people's trust in time.
• 1:07:18
  Matt Jacob: Do you really need to get that book published?
• 1:07:20
  Josiah Gordon: yeah, man, yeah, well, this that goes back to I'm not a big good business guy, right?
• 1:07:26
  Josiah Gordon: So it's like the reason it's taken.
• 1:07:27
  Josiah Gordon: So I've, I've finished it for about a year and a half now and it's just kind of been sitting in limbo.
• 1:07:31
  Josiah Gordon: Part of it is just like I'm, I'm, I'm very particular, so I want it to look the best possible and and, but I'm not, I'm not as good at finding the right people to do it, um, but luckily, in the last few months I've I've found a project manager that has been really helping me with that stuff and we're hoping to have it released by the end of this year.
• 1:07:58
  Josiah Gordon: But I just, for me, it's very important that the quality is like perfect and everything's perfect in it, because I've spent so so long on it and I just don't want to release something that's half-assed and I want it to be um, I want it to be the best thing like possible for what it is.
• 1:08:14
  Josiah Gordon: that's, that's why it's taken me so long, cause I just want it to be that.
• 1:08:17
  Josiah Gordon: Um, so yeah, that's the process of it right now.
• 1:08:22
  Matt Jacob: Let's look ahead as we start to wrap up and we can get you on your way.
• 1:08:26
  Matt Jacob: But when we think about where you pose and how you put your output into the world and we talked about you know you've got multiple films and videos in the pipeline.
• 1:08:39
  Matt Jacob: Where they will be released, I guess we'll find out.
• 1:08:43
  Matt Jacob: But where do you find comfort in putting your work out there in the audience?
• 1:08:49
  Matt Jacob: Where's your go-to?
• 1:08:50
  Matt Jacob: Is it such a thing as Instagram, or are you more comfortable keeping your work for you and your friends in a more private setting?
• 1:08:57
  Matt Jacob: Is that important to you?
• 1:08:59
  Matt Jacob: Getting your work out there?
• 1:09:01
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:09:03
  Josiah Gordon: I mean, I think there is I mean from an egotistical standpoint there's definitely affirmation that comes from it.
• 1:09:15
  Josiah Gordon: It never not feels good for someone to tell you that like, wow, I love this, right.
• 1:09:25
  Josiah Gordon: I think ultimately I just love photography and I love, I love creating things and of course I want to show people the things that I create.
• 1:09:40
  Josiah Gordon: And and I think ultimately just comes down to that, I don't necessarily feel I don't necessarily create things and feel the need to keep it to myself.
• 1:09:55
  Josiah Gordon: If social media disappeared tomorrow what would you do with your, your work?
• 1:10:04
  Josiah Gordon: Where would you?
• 1:10:04
  Josiah Gordon: I don't know, I don't know.
• 1:10:05
  Josiah Gordon: I, I, I think I think I would continue doing what I do because I love it.
• 1:10:06
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, you'd still do it, I'd still do it.
• 1:10:08
  Josiah Gordon: Um, as far as sharing it, I don't know.
• 1:10:10
  Josiah Gordon: I just just, I just know right now where it is, I'm able to share it in the way that I do.
• 1:10:14
  Josiah Gordon: Um, if, if the um, if I lost the ability to share it in the way that I do right now, um, I would probably look into other outlets, like more books or more more physical, and that's and that's ultimately what I'm trying to get into.
• 1:10:32
  Josiah Gordon: More is more physical physical products, prints, prints and um and books, like I, depending on how well this book does.
• 1:10:42
  Josiah Gordon: What I'd love is, if this book does well to, to be able to use that money to finance other book projects.
• 1:10:51
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and just because, because ultimately I think that's what I would love the most is just is just really hyper-focusing on projects for a few years at a time, releasing a book and moving on to the next one.
• 1:11:06
  Josiah Gordon: I think to me that would be the ultimate dream.
• 1:11:08
  Josiah Gordon: But of course it costs a lot to do that and at the moment I don't have the financial freedom to fully do that.
• 1:11:16
  Josiah Gordon: And so if that was a possibility through the success of this book and it shows that it's a possibility then I would definitely do something along those lines.
• 1:11:29
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, there's a lot of charlatans out there in terms of publishers as well.
• 1:11:32
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah Well that's why I want to self-publish, so I'm self-publishing, oh okay, okay, yeah, that is a big project.
• 1:11:37
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:38
  Matt Jacob: Well, I wish you the best of luck.
• 1:11:39
  Matt Jacob: I look forward to getting a free copy.
• 1:11:41
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 1:11:43
  Matt Jacob: What is the next generation of photographers look like?
• 1:11:48
  Matt Jacob: If there's anything you can impart on the next generation of photographers creators in today's algorithmic, ai driven world, is there anything that comes to your mind that, in terms of advice and things that you've learned along the way, yeah, for sure.
• 1:12:03
  Josiah Gordon: Um, yeah, I think there's a lot.
• 1:12:06
  Josiah Gordon: I think, um, I think I touched on it earlier but don't expect fortune right away and don't A lot of people.
• 1:12:25
  Josiah Gordon: I've noticed it in the creative industry, particularly in any kind of art.
• 1:12:34
  Josiah Gordon: Really, it's just because you've created something doesn't mean it's good.
• 1:12:40
  Josiah Gordon: It might be good for you personally, which is great, but it doesn't mean other people are going to think it's good and that's okay.
• 1:12:47
  Josiah Gordon: But you have to recognize that to be great at something, you have to give your time to it to become great.
• 1:13:02
  Josiah Gordon: And if you don't give time to it, you're not going to be great, you're not going to stand amongst the artists of our generation.
• 1:13:12
  Josiah Gordon: If you've just started out, um, it's just not going to happen.
• 1:13:19
  Josiah Gordon: Like if and and?
• 1:13:22
  Josiah Gordon: How do you?
• 1:13:22
  Josiah Gordon: How do you become one of the greats?
• 1:13:24
  Josiah Gordon: You just give it time, you.
• 1:13:26
  Josiah Gordon: I mean, what do they say?
• 1:13:27
  Josiah Gordon: 10 000 hours?
• 1:13:28
  Matt Jacob: yeah, right, um about 10 years.
• 1:13:29
  Josiah Gordon: If you did it right.
• 1:13:31
  Josiah Gordon: And it's like with so many people in the, in the artistic realm, how can you that are really, really good, how can you expect, why put that pressure on yourself to be someone who stands among the best of our, our time, when you've only been doing it for a year or two years?
• 1:13:55
  Josiah Gordon: And for me, the advice would be if it's something you love, fortune will come.
• 1:14:06
  Josiah Gordon: It just comes in time, because if you're good at what you do and I don't necessarily mean fortune in the millions, right, but enough to live.
• 1:14:15
  Josiah Gordon: Billions, yeah, billions, billions and billions.
• 1:14:19
  Matt Jacob: Of pesos.
• 1:14:21
  Josiah Gordon: But I do think that when it comes to art, you have to love it and it's going to take time, and it's going to take time.
• 1:14:34
  Josiah Gordon: And it's going to take time, um, especially if you're not someone who's business minded, like me.
• 1:14:39
  Josiah Gordon: It's going to take a long time to get to the place.
• 1:14:42
  Josiah Gordon: One where, um, other people in mass like your work or enjoy your work, and two, where you enjoy your work.
• 1:14:52
  Josiah Gordon: And I think that's the most important one, because I mean, for me personally, I've been doing photography on and off for 15 years or so, I would say.
• 1:15:04
  Josiah Gordon: I didn't really start making money from photography until, like maybe five years ago, to where it was actually.
• 1:15:12
  Josiah Gordon: I was able to live off of it.
• 1:15:13
  Josiah Gordon: So I mean, it took me a long time to get to the place where it was something that I could just pursue this and it didn't happen very easily.
• 1:15:24
  Josiah Gordon: But again, that's coming from someone who's not super business-minded, so a lot of other people could find avenues to whatever, but from a success standpoint to you know whatever, um, but from a success standpoint, it's like give yourself, give yourself time, like it takes a lot of time and if you want to be good at something and this is with anything in life, you need to do it.
• 1:15:43
  Josiah Gordon: You're not just naturally, you're not just naturally going to become a savant.
• 1:15:48
  Josiah Gordon: You can become a savant, but you need time to do it.
• 1:15:52
  Josiah Gordon: And if you don't give yourself that time, you're just not going to.
• 1:15:54
  Josiah Gordon: And so I guess, in the harshest term possible, just get better, right, yeah, it's like just be better, but the only way you can do that is by working on it, and don't bring yourself down for not being where you want to be, but just get better right Be consistent and patient and patient with consistency right.
• 1:16:16
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:16:18
  Matt Jacob: Just day in, day out, just work the grind.
• 1:16:20
  Matt Jacob: Do you see that, though Interesting?
• 1:16:22
  Matt Jacob: You said that.
• 1:16:23
  Matt Jacob: I totally agree with you, but do you see that as being a common thread through people who are starting, or do you see why?
• 1:16:31
  Matt Jacob: Do you say that?
• 1:16:31
  Matt Jacob: Is it just from purely personal experience?
• 1:16:33
  Matt Jacob: Or do you see that with?
• 1:16:34
  Matt Jacob: Do you say that's just from purely?
• 1:16:35
  Josiah Gordon: personal experience or do you see that with other people?
• 1:16:36
  Josiah Gordon: I just noticed a lot of people, especially in the social realm, where, I mean, I've seen this happen quite a lot, where, um, algorithm, algorithmically, uh we have no control over how social media cooperates with us, and I've seen people who just randomly had a photo go viral, yeah, and they.
• 1:16:55
  Josiah Gordon: And then in that moment they decide, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be a photographer.
• 1:17:00
  Josiah Gordon: And then the algorithm is pushing people their way and they're getting a lot of engagement and then all of a sudden, that engagement's gone, um, and then they've quit everything to pursue this thing that they weren't very good at.
• 1:17:14
  Josiah Gordon: They had a knack for it.
• 1:17:18
  Matt Jacob: You might be good at it.
• 1:17:22
  Josiah Gordon: A natural eye for it, but they weren't professional for lack of better terms.
• 1:17:28
  Josiah Gordon: And now that they've kind of given up everything else to follow this thing and they're stuck in a tough place because the algorithm isn't treating them the same way that it was before and and I've seen a lot of people have that happen to them um, and so it's just like a fair if, if, if, um, lebron james didn't do the amount of training that he done, that he has done, I mean, and and I don't know if, if you're familiar with his regime, I mean it is crazy, like the amount of time, even to this day, that he puts into working out training and that he has done for the past 30 years to be considered now one of the greatest basketball players who has ever lived.
• 1:18:21
  Josiah Gordon: He's not naturally the greatest basketball player.
• 1:18:25
  Josiah Gordon: If he didn't train the amount he trained, he would have just been playing streetball and he might have been naturally good at it.
• 1:18:32
  Josiah Gordon: He probably would have been, but not NBA level good at it if he didn't do the amount of training he did.
• 1:18:38
  Josiah Gordon: And so there is a reason he is successful as he is and there is a reason he's one of the greatest of all time because he put time and effort into training those muscles to do what they need to do.
• 1:18:50
  Josiah Gordon: And it's the same with any career.
• 1:18:55
  Josiah Gordon: And it doesn't mean that you're going to be LeBron James if you put as much time into it as LeBron James did, because there's a lot of other basketball players that did.
• 1:19:04
  Josiah Gordon: He's just who he is.
• 1:19:05
  Josiah Gordon: But don't expect to get into the NBA if you're not training for it and you might not even get in at the end of it.
• 1:19:13
  Matt Jacob: Same with I mean in the same basketball thread same with Michael Jordan, another one of the came.
• 1:19:18
  Matt Jacob: But he did have talent.
• 1:19:19
  Matt Jacob: He did have pure raw talent.
• 1:19:20
  Matt Jacob: But how many people you never heard of had the raw talent but didn't put in the work?
• 1:19:26
  Matt Jacob: We don't hear about that.
• 1:19:27
  Josiah Gordon: Well, that's the point right.
• 1:19:28
  Josiah Gordon: Where it's like he was the first one on the court and the last one look, with photography, I mean, let's be real, like anyone can pick up a camera and push a button and point it, or point it at something beautiful, and push a button and it's a good photograph.
• 1:19:42
  Josiah Gordon: Anybody can take a good photograph.
• 1:19:44
  Josiah Gordon: That's not, it's not rocket science.
• 1:19:46
  Josiah Gordon: Um, it's very easy to do.
• 1:19:48
  Josiah Gordon: All you need to learn is like three buttons, like exposure, the triangle, right, um, and anyone with a 50 iq can do that.
• 1:19:58
  Josiah Gordon: So, um, we live, or?
• 1:20:03
  Josiah Gordon: Or.
• 1:20:04
  Josiah Gordon: The photography realm is a very easy one to get into, because all you need to do is buy a camera very, very easy to get it.
• 1:20:13
  Josiah Gordon: That's why there's so many people that do it, because it's very easy to get into.
• 1:20:20
  Josiah Gordon: And when you become a photographer, you are competing with all of these other people for jobs in a realm that's very easy to get into.
• 1:20:31
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and so what?
• 1:20:35
  Josiah Gordon: What sets you apart?
• 1:20:36
  Josiah Gordon: Um, why, why would a company hire you?
• 1:20:41
  Josiah Gordon: I think that's a good question to ask.
• 1:20:43
  Josiah Gordon: Ask yourself.
• 1:20:43
  Josiah Gordon: It's like why would a company hire you?
• 1:20:45
  Josiah Gordon: This?
• 1:20:45
  Josiah Gordon: There is, you know, 10,000 photographers in your region.
• 1:20:51
  Josiah Gordon: Why is the company going to pick you?
• 1:20:53
  Josiah Gordon: Um, and I, and I think that's an important question to ask and it's and, and.
• 1:20:58
  Josiah Gordon: You need to create reasons why and most of those reasons are going to be with, with in your own skill set and ability to create something that the company wants um, and do you have it?
• 1:21:14
  Josiah Gordon: Um, when you're competing with all these other people, do you have it more than them?
• 1:21:18
  Josiah Gordon: And so it's like that's the, that's the thing, right?
• 1:21:20
  Josiah Gordon: Um, um, and and, and.
• 1:21:25
  Josiah Gordon: These and these aren't.
• 1:21:26
  Josiah Gordon: These things aren't meant to be said to put yourself down.
• 1:21:30
  Josiah Gordon: It's meant to inspire you to do better.
• 1:21:32
  Josiah Gordon: It's meant to inspire you to become great and be able to have an answer to that question.
• 1:21:38
  Josiah Gordon: And if you don't feel like you have an answer for it yet, it's just you haven't spent enough time doing it.
• 1:21:42
  Josiah Gordon: Because you will Like that answer will come there.
• 1:21:45
  Josiah Gordon: You will.
• 1:21:45
  Josiah Gordon: Once you become confident in what you do, you will have a reason for the company to hire you, but it takes time.
• 1:21:53
  Matt Jacob: Was there a moment in your journey that you felt, okay, maybe I've got this now, or maybe I've reached a different level of confidence in being able to deliver what I wanted to do?
• 1:22:02
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, absolutely, I think.
• 1:22:04
  Josiah Gordon: I would say it was four or five years ago when I really found myself in a style that I liked and that I was consistently able to produce at a higher level.
• 1:22:19
  Josiah Gordon: And once I kind of fell into that, I really became more.
• 1:22:25
  Josiah Gordon: I stopped comparing myself, I stopped being jealous of people around me, or even friends, who were succeeding and I wasn't, and I really came yeah, I just I came to a more confident place of this is what I can do.
• 1:22:46
  Josiah Gordon: I know I can do this, and I say this in a very non-egotistical way, but it's like I know I can do this better than the other person.
• 1:22:59
  Josiah Gordon: I know I know it, um, just hire me like I know I can do that, and so so, so a lot of that is is just.
• 1:23:06
  Josiah Gordon: But that confidence only comes from time, um, and time spent doing it and understanding, because because that's that's the thing about creativity as well, is it requires understanding.
• 1:23:18
  Josiah Gordon: Creativity and understanding only comes through experience.
• 1:23:23
  Josiah Gordon: So you have to understand the possibilities of what you can do and then, when you understand those possibilities, the creativity flows, because you can really think outside of the box and have an understanding of what you're able to do in those out of the box things.
• 1:23:40
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, and that comes through experience of failing more than anything else.
• 1:23:44
  Matt Jacob: Right, make them, and that only comes with doing and that only comes with time.
• 1:23:48
  Matt Jacob: So you know, all comes down.
• 1:23:50
  Matt Jacob: I think of those moments where maybe not so much oh, I've got this, but more you look back and go fuck, I really didn't have it, but like I was really bad before, when I thought I was really good yeah, exactly.
• 1:24:03
  Matt Jacob: And then you worry, maybe I'm in.
• 1:24:04
  Josiah Gordon: I'm still in that, yeah, for sure for sure, but I think it speaks for and that's that's one really cool thing about having something like Instagram or or any sort of platform where you, you, um, put your work out there, where you just it's a scroll of the finger of where you were a year ago, two years ago, and you can, and I I look at it more as improvement of like, wow, like I can't believe this is, this is how I edited colors, or you know what I mean, and you'll look at that, and then you'll find a lot more confidence in the stuff that you're doing now, because you can see so much growth in just over and I and I still find that today like, um, like, because I love experimenting and I love experimental photography I can, I can look at something that I tried a year ago versus how I do it now and how it comes so fluidly, and be like, wow, like, that's a big difference, um, and so I mean that's just a natural thing.
• 1:25:04
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:25:05
  Matt Jacob: Well, I think you're an incredible artist.
• 1:25:07
  Matt Jacob: Please keep doing what you're doing.
• 1:25:09
  Josiah Gordon: Keep sharing it with us.
• 1:25:11
  Matt Jacob: I look forward to, uh, seeing the book and and I highly encourage anyone watching to go and obviously see your stuff, but watch your short films and, yeah, I'd look forward to seeing the next few.
• 1:25:23
  Matt Jacob: Thanks so much for joining.
• 1:25:24
  Matt Jacob: It's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:25:25
  Josiah Gordon: Yeah, man, it's been great Cheers.
• 1:25:27
  Josiah Gordon: Thanks for the coffee.
• 1:25:28
  Josiah Gordon: You're welcome, ha ha.