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Bravery Is A Practice with Jill Schulman · Get Real with Jim Weiss

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So great to talk to Jill.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I think this concept of bravery
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: is really foundational to any person's success, whether in life
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: or in business or in any other way. So I
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: think it was such a fundamental, basic discussion on our
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: podcast where we want to impart real practical ways of
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: living better and making the world a healthier place.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: So I think, you know, it starts with bravery.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of science, there's a lot of data,
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: so I learned a lot.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Also, I'm fine when I'm listening to podcasts outside of ours,
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: but also in our recordings when our guests really jog
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: my memory and make me think of times in my
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: life where I haven't practiced what they're preaching, or where
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: somebody has done something that's felt uncomfortable for me. I'm
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: always like, this is a sign of a good conversation,
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: And with her, I was like thinking back on early
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: career and things bosses said to me, or ways I
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: behaved or company structures. Her work is so vital. Work
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: is the thing we're doing till we're eighty. Right, we
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: have to enjoy and feel safe and comfortable and brave.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Also, Jill puts it across in a very personal way
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: through her own experience in life and candid and open.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: So I think that makes.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: For a little bit better way to take it. And
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: when the person coaching you is a bit vulnerable themselves
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: and they're not perfect, yeah, that's also helpful.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: I mean her answer Dan for what she's getting real
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: about was our best yet, I think, or most vulnerable.
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what did it make you think about as a leader.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: One of the things I feel I do as a
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: leader is to help people see they can do something
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: they don't think they can do. I think helping someone
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: get there is really important.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: The how you do it is everything.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: So you know, you've got to bring people along and
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: meet them where they are where we talk about that.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: You can't over impose and you want to make a statement.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I think there's an art to doing this, which is
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: why Jill has a training company. I think people there's
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: an art in a methodology to get people where you
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: need to get them without turning them off or turning
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  Speaker 2: them away. You don't have to yell, and sometimes listening
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: more is the way to get us there. And so
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: again I think it's this whole kind of journey of
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: the podcast and my conversations obviously help me, help you,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: help our listeners, help the audience think about new.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Ways to evolve and grow.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: And she talked about the concept of a growth mindset,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: and I think I have plenty of mentors out there
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: who've taught me that.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: But I guess it's just never being satisfied and just
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: relentlessly pursuing what's next.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, should we show off her book for the
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: audience and then sure there's motivation, there is the bravery effects.
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: Be brave, get braver.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So, Jill Schulman, you teach the science of brain bravery
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and the bravery effect. Your book is a roadmap for
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: that science. I can't believe there's a science for it.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: From cybercrime to digital building to school and public shooting.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Does bravery look different when we have to be HyperWare
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: aware of everything around us and our devices, social media,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: emerging AI making it harder to be brave today? Is
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: it a different context that you're talking about this topic.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, in twenty twenty six, bravery is more important than ever.
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  Speaker 4: And I'll give you two reasons why. Number One, if
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  Speaker 4: we look at the messaging that we see in the media,
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: the messaging is that being uncomfortable is bad that we want.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: If there's anything that makes us feel anxious, then what
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: we should do is we should avoid it. And stress
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: is horrible, It's going to kill us, so we want
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: to avoid it at all costs. And I say this
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: because sometimes you see the world through the eyes of
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: your children. So I have an eighteen and twenty year old,
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: two daughters, and that's what they think. Like my the
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: key to success and happiness in this world is to
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  Speaker 4: everything to come with ease. And it's just not what
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: the science supports. And you know this in our when
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: we met at the HbA conference. I mean I studied
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: psychology at Penn and my degree is in applied positive psychology,
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: So I'm a happiness scientist, Like I know, what does
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  Speaker 4: the research tell us that makes people not only the
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  Speaker 4: most successful in happiness when we think of the messaging
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  Speaker 4: that's out there, like we need a little bit of
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  Speaker 4: a correction where we need to teach the world so
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  Speaker 4: in corporate America and our younger generation that we should
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  Speaker 4: not be running away from what we fear. If we do,
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  Speaker 4: it will not make you more successful, it will not
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  Speaker 4: make you happier. In fact, I'm a little bit of
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  Speaker 4: a science geek, Jim, And it's because I worked in
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: pharma and I always said I will never make a
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: claim without some science to back it up. So there
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  Speaker 4: was a really interesting study that was just done in
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  Speaker 4: twenty twenty four and the researchers followed more than two
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: thousand adults over four years, so it's a longitudinal study,
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  Speaker 4: and they found that experiential avoidance so when people were
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  Speaker 4: scared or there's risk and so they avoided it, it
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  Speaker 4: caused the development and persistence of anxiety and depression. So
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  Speaker 4: this is where again I'm talking, like to my two
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  Speaker 4: daughters who are eighteen and twenty, like, I want them
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  Speaker 4: to know that if they keep avoiding the things that
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: have risk or they're scared of, it is not going
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: to make them happier, right, And that's where people are confused, like, Okay,
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  Speaker 4: this really makes me nervous, I'm gonna avoid it. So
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  Speaker 4: I'm gonna have mental well being if I avoid the
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  Speaker 4: uncomfortable things. And that is absolutely the opposite of what
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  Speaker 4: we know based on the science. And the second reason
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: why bravery is so important today, especially in the business
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: world in the healthcare industry is I think back in
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  Speaker 4: the day, Jim, like when I was starting off a long,
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  Speaker 4: long time ago in pharma. What difference cerentiated me and
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: a lot of top performers is we had the most knowledge.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: If you have the most knowledge, then you could run
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  Speaker 4: circles around people that weren't as smarter, didn't have as
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  Speaker 4: much knowledge. But AI has changed that, like people don't
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: need to study as much because they can get the
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: information just at a click. But there's actually two things
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  Speaker 4: that we need now. And because AI is wonderful, and
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  Speaker 4: I know you had an episode on that, but right now,
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  Speaker 4: the skill of bravery, if people stepping forward in the
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: presence of fear, that is what's going to make them
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  Speaker 4: the most successful in the workplace. You know, for them
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  Speaker 4: to ask the uncomfortable question of the doctor, for someone
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: to give the feedback to someone else at work, for
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  Speaker 4: them to be better. Bravery is just an absolutely essential
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  Speaker 4: skill moving forward. So it's really the ability to connect
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  Speaker 4: with people number one. That's an important skill and then bravery.
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  Speaker 4: And if those are the skills that we're working on
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  Speaker 4: in the workplace, we're going to unstoppable.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't sound like it's just the workplace you mentioned,
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  Speaker 2: you know, asking questions in the doctor's office. Well, why
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: did people not want to bother the doctor or the
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: mother or anybody. I've had this happen when my kids
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: see me in a call and they don't come in
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  Speaker 2: with what they want. Is it because they were scolded
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: when they did it before? What are some of the
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: factors that go into not stepping up and forward and out?
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's mainly if we look at the literature, it's
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  Speaker 4: this social fear. It's the fear that it's going to backfire.
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  Speaker 4: So if I ask the difficult question of the doctor,
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: then maybe there's going to be some retaliation and then
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  Speaker 4: he's not going to see me next time, or if
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: I close too hard. I was in sales leadership and
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: pharma for a very very long time. That was the
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: biggest challenge that we sometimes had in leading our sales organization.
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  Speaker 4: Like they would do the three point message, you know,
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: back in the day, but getting them to ask for
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: the commitment. But the reason why there's scared is it
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: makes them uncomfortable to make the other person uncomfortable and
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  Speaker 4: what if they say no? But you and I both
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  Speaker 4: know this, like if they say no, then we can
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  Speaker 4: ask why. So it's all about social fear. If we
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  Speaker 4: look at evolutionary psychology, fear has so much control over
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  Speaker 4: our behavior, and this is what kept us alive back
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  Speaker 4: in the caveman days. Like you feel fear when you
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  Speaker 4: get close to the edge of a cliff, that's what
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  Speaker 4: keeps you alive because you're not going to fall off,
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  Speaker 4: or when you see a bear or a saber toothed
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  Speaker 4: tiger and you take action to minimize that risk. So
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  Speaker 4: being motivated by fear is what used to keep us alive.
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  Speaker 4: But in today's day, it's all about social fear. But
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  Speaker 4: our nervous system does not know the difference. So in
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  Speaker 4: those situations, people feel the fear and they think the
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  Speaker 4: fear is a sign that something's wrong and they should
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  Speaker 4: not move forward, and that's not the truth. So what
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  Speaker 4: I teach audiences is to be curious when you're feeling
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  Speaker 4: the fear. Most of the time, fear is not a
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  Speaker 4: stop sign. It's a sign post to move forward in
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  Speaker 4: that direction because it's pointing you to the thing that
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  Speaker 4: you most need to do.
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  Speaker 2: So I always like to start at the start. Your
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  Speaker 2: good origin story is fun. When did you first experience
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  Speaker 2: the power of bravery? Why bravery? How did you get
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  Speaker 2: all into this.
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  Speaker 4: Well, let me start. I think the first time where
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  Speaker 4: I discovered the power of bravery, it was when I
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  Speaker 4: was nineteen years old in San Diego, California, and I
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  Speaker 4: was standing on a platform forty feet in the air
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  Speaker 4: and in front of me was a rope that extended
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  Speaker 4: from the platform more than one hundred feet down to
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  Speaker 4: basically the ground a lower platform, and it looked like
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  Speaker 4: a zipline. Jim, it looked like a zipline, but it
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  Speaker 4: wasn't a zipline because there was no equipment. It was
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  Speaker 4: just me and my body and I was expected to
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  Speaker 4: go down this thing. This was on the Navy Seal
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  Speaker 4: base in Cornado, California. Because I went to college in
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: San Diego, I had a full scholarship ROTC scholarship Marine
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  Speaker 4: Corps option, so I was training to become a marine.
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  Speaker 4: And someone at my unit thought it would be a
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  Speaker 4: fun idea to go to Coronado and do this thing
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  Speaker 4: called the Confidence Course, and they kind of sold it
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: as it's on the beach in Coronado, it'll be fun.
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  Speaker 4: This is where Navy seals get scared, and we're doing it.
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  Speaker 4: And I'm nineteen years old in college and I'm on
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  Speaker 4: this platform, and I feel the fear Jim, Like, you know,
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  Speaker 4: when you're scared, but you can kind of fake it
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  Speaker 4: on the outside, you know, you're like, I'm cool, Like, no,
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  Speaker 4: I'm not scared, and then sometimes you're your body betrays you,
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: like my knees were shaking, my hands were shaking. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: it was evident that I was so scared. But when
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: my feet hit the ground on the other side of
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: that rope, something shifted and I ended up doing all
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: the obstacles on this confidence course. It's not called an
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: obstacle course, it's called the confidence course. And I didn't
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: realize it until after I did all the obstacles of
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  Speaker 4: why and it is bravery or confidence is not built
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  Speaker 4: by doing all the things in the mindset and waiting
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: until you feel ready. So what I learned that day
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: is when you take a step forward on shaky k ease,
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  Speaker 4: when you act when you're scared, that is actually what
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  Speaker 4: builds confidence and bravery. So that was I think the
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  Speaker 4: first time where I realized that. And then fast forward
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: to five years ago when I started studying at PEN
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: Then I was learning all the psychology behind it. When
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: I was doing my master's thesis, which I did with
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: the Wharton School of Business. It's like you experience life
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: and you just know these universal truths and then you
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: study the science behind it. And we need this in
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: the workplace because we usually do this. I mean, you
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: know this, Jim, because you've been leader and Pharma and
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: you've helped so many different clients. Sometimes we just go
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: and say, like, do the thing. Let me just train
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: you in how to do the thing. Just do the thing,
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  Speaker 4: But we don't help people build the bravery to be
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  Speaker 4: able to do the hard things. So I kind of
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: think of like a stream like it. Sometimes we're downstream
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  Speaker 4: saying do the thing, But if we just go upstream
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  Speaker 4: and help them build the bravery, it has such a
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: huge impact downstream, they're going to be able to do
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: the hard thing.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Well, there's something between you standing on this platform and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: putting your feet and hands onto the rope. Yeah, there's
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: a sum you know, that's where it is.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: So what is it? Adrenaline? What the hell? Or you
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: just like shut your eyes and go what is it?
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: When I decided to grab the rope, it's because I
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: had the fear of getting on the rope and what
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: would happen? But then I had a larger fear, and
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: larger fear was everyone else from my unit looking up
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  Speaker 4: at me. So when we look at when people make
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: a brave decision, what we teach them is we want
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  Speaker 4: people to think about what is the consequence if you
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: don't take the brave step. So for me, I got
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: on that rope and I grabbed the grope and did
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: the obstacle because I had a greater fear of looking
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: like a wimp around all of my fellow Marines. And
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: the stakes were high for me because I went into
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: the Marine Corps option ROTC. I wanted to be a
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: marine after the military.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: You worked for over a decade in sales with Abbott
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: among others. What made you go in that direction from
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: where you were?
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, doesn't that make sense? A female officer in the
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: combat arm of combat engineering one of the first How
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: did I move from that to pharmacales? I wish I
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: had the story Jim of saying like I always had
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: a desire. No, I got out of the Marine Corps
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: and there's recruiters that specialize in placing junior officers. So
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: I got out of the Marine Corps as a captain.
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: So these recruiters grab you, and they're like, I want
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: to place you into a job so I can get paid.
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  Speaker 4: And they're the ones that said, pharmaceutical sales. This is
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: back in two thousand and that's when there were such
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: expansions in the commercial side, in the sales organization, so
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: there's a great demand. So they said, why don't you
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: think about doing pharmaceutical sales and I'll take you. My
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: first response, Jim, was pharmaceutical sales. I'm a captain of marines.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: Excuse me, Like I am above sales and what's with
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: the medical I had no interest, and the recruiter said
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: to me, you know what, it would be really great
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: for you to go to these interviews to practice your
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: interviewing skills, even if you don't want to do it.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: So I agreed. So I went and I interviewed with
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: two companies and the second company I interviewed with was
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: Abbot Labs back in the day, and the hiring manager
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: was a Marine Corps former Marine Corp officer. The interview
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: turned into like, okay, tell me about this industry is
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: it great? And so I ended up taking the job.
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: And then I fell in love with the science and
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: I fell in love with sales. And I absolutely loved
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: and I have spent pretty much my entire career. I
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: was there for thirteen years. I went to a device
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: company for a little bit, then I launched my company
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: and I primarily serve healthcare pharma companies. So I'm so
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: glad that recruiter kind of twisted my arm and said, aid,
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: miss fancy Pants, just go do some interviews, because it
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: ended up leading to this amazing career.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Well, it's amazing how we get into what we get into.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: So let's share some core parts of the playbook in
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: the Bravery Effect.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: The book is written as a parable. So for those
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: of us who love like Lencioni's book The Five Dysfunctions
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: of a Team, love it. I used to work for
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: the table group doing that work. Or if you love
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: Ken Blanchard and Spencer Johnson's The New One Minute Manager,
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: like if you love learning through parables, I decided to
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: write the book as a parable. In fact, Ken is
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: a mentor of mine. He wrote the forward. The book
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: is written as a parable, and it teaches that bravery's
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: a skill that anyone can learn, and it's in a
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: professional environment, and it really goes through the three different
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: think of it as exercises because we were using the
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: analogy of going to the gym. Three different things you
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: can do to build your bravery, and the first comes
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: from cognitive psychology, So it is on mindset. First have
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: to win the battle in our mind before we can
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: take the action. So mindset, how we think, does impact
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: our actions. So cognitive psychology and I really cite four
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: different things in the book. One is making sure people
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: have a growth mindset, citing Carol Dwe's research. Number two
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: I love a Leah Crumb's research out of Stanford on
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: stress is enhancing mindset. This is such a game changer
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: in organizations. So if people think that stress is bad
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: and they should avoid at all costs, and most of
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: our jobs JIM are stressful because there's challenges, then we'll
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: have a negative stress response.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: But stress is helpful, right.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: Exactly exactly if you teach people that stress and challenges
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: are what make you stronger. We are actually born to
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: strive both physically and physiologically, if we look the research,
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: so we do need to be challenged. So we talk
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: about changing people's mindset. Then we get into behavior psychology,
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: which is actually taking the step forward. Like when I
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: was on that platform, and we go into some evidence
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: based tips on how people can actually take that step
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: on shaky knee. So there's behavioral psychology and then lastly
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: we end with social psychology. So my third part of
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: the bravery model is about building a brave tribe. Curating
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: a brave tribe. If you've got a challenging goal and
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: there's some fear along the journey, make sure that you
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: find the right mentors that have the experience the knowledge
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: that you need, but also will make sure that they
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: call forth your best. They won't let you tap out
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: when you're scared.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Amazing, what do leaders miss about being brave?
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: Leaders need to learn how to be brave themselves and
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: model it, but they also need to teach the skill
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: of bravery to their team. Like I've done a lot
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: of work teaching psychological safety in the workplace. You know,
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: Amy Edmundson from Harvard is the one has done you know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: most of the research. Love her, love all of her research.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: I talk about it all the time. But what we
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: miss is the real goal is not creating psychological safety.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: It's not The real goal is candor. We want people
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: to ask for help, We want people to share their ideas,
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: so we're not the goal that this drives me crazy.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: Leaders like we want psychological safety. I'm like, no, you don't.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: You want candor so. We need to teach leaders how
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: to create psychological safety, which will take that risk down.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: But people are still scared to speak up. You know,
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: when I use that example, some people are just shy.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: Like you can make it totally psychologically safe, but still
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: people still are scared of speaking up. So there are
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: two sides of the coin. We want to try to
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: make it safer, but we need to teach the skill
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: of bravery. So there's this field called you know, just
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: if you know of like self efficacy, you know that
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: concept by Albert Bendera, like how do people feel confident
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: to do something? There's something called voice efficacy, and I
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: like to teach that to the clients that I serve, Like,
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: we need to teach people the skill of finding their
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: voice and speaking up. When you teach them how to
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: do it, they practice it, and you have psychological safety.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: Now we have candor so leaders I think miss teaching
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: the skill. It's like the X factor. Just imagine the
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: compound effect if you teach your team how to be
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: brave and throughout week, there's all these little opportunities. Like
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: day one, it's like, okay, asking the hard question of
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: the doctor, you know. Then then later on it's asking
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: for the close, and the next day it's having a
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: difficult conversation, and the next day it's setting an ambitious goal.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: Like think of the impact to someone's career and their
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: success if they're always leaning forward and doing the uncomfortable thing. Now,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: imagine the opposite people who don't ask the hard question
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: because oh, I don't know what they're gonna say, and well,
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: I don't want to close because oh gosh, it's really uncomfortable,
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: and then I don't want to have that. I know
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: I need to have that difficult conversation, but ough tomorrow
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to do it yet. And ah, this
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: goal that I'm setting, let's make it safer, let's degrade
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: it a little bit to make it easier. Imagine that
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: the compound effect of always making things safer on that
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: person's success, but also on their career. So if we
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: really care about serving our employees and helping them have
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: their best career, we need to teach them how to
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: be brave, to have that self leadership. It's a game changer,
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: and all the research is in the book.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Our workplace is accidentally training people to avoid risks. What
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: are the dynamics you change to help employees be braver
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: in the workplace.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: Every organization is different, and we can measure what is
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: the culture like. But when I go into organizations, we
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: train people the evidence based skills that are practical so
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: that they can step forward in the presence of fear
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: toward that noble, worthwhile goal. And that's really what I'm
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: on a mission to do. It's helping people take that
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: step forward. And there's nothing wrong with people that feel
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: the fear and they step back. There's nothing wrong with you.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: It's because you're human. When you feel the fear, you
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: run the other way, and that's how we're biologically wired.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: But we can learn how to take a step forward
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: in the presence of fear when it matters, when it's
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: the right thing to do. There's some companies that have
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: it as a core value. ABV is a client that
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: I work with, and one of their core values is
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: it's called clear and courageous, so it's one of their
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: core values. I think AV does this really well. They
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: actually train people and they mean it. There's a lot
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: of companies that talk about like, oh, innovation is important
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: and transparency is important, and they've got it on their
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: website and on their walls, But are they training people,
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: are they enabling them to actually do those skills. We
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: have to do some work to bring those values to
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: life if we really want to make an impact on
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: the culture.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: So what happens to companies when bravery is apps from
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the culture.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: Well, that's the rist. So when bravery is absent, people
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: set goals that are safe, that don't challenge them because
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: they're scared if they don't. When they see challenges or problems,
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: they don't bring it up. They don't share their ideas,
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: which stifles innovation. They're not having the uncomfortable conversations. You
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: know that person at work that there's a bunch of
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: tension and everyone sees it and it's slowing everyone down.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: Everyone's talking about the tension and getting instead of getting
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: worked tone. That slows us down. So people are not
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: having the conversations, feedbacks not being given. It just slows
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: down everything and we don't accomplish as much. And the
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: workplace environment is more stressful in a bad way because
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: people have all these ideas and thoughts and they just
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: sit there and they don't do anything about it. So
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: when we can bring braver into the workplace, what we
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: have found is that it elevates performance of the individuals,
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: it impacts results of the teams that go through it,
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: and it improves the job set up faction. I guess
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: that's the answer to your question is not having it
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: is very costly, but nurturing teaching the skill of bravery
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: has all these positive outcomes.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: One hundred percent.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: But how do we spot the impostors who are not
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: brave leaders? Are there tell tale signs that the sky
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: or gal as a faker not a maker.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: Well, there's a way we can measure it. So I
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: do have a bravery assessment. And when people say like
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: I'm not scared of anything, like I'm great, And then
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: I'll say, like, you know what, when you get to
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: the part of the bravery assessment where it talks about
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: admitting mistakes and asking for help, You're probably going to
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: have an opportunity there. So part of it is, like
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: any skill development, like we've got to look in the
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: mirror honestly and go So I tell people, like everyone
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: can benefit from elevating their bravery skill. You might be
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: pretty strong and we're going to increase it a little bit,
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: and that little increase is going to help you be
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: even more successful. Other people have a bigger opportunity. But
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: a lot of times bravery it's very personal and it's visible.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: So Jim, for you to stand on a stage in
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: front of thousands of people that doesn't require bravery because
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: you've been doing it a long time, no problem. Somebody
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: else might do the exact same thing and they are terrified.
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: So when we teach the skill of bravery, like a
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: lot of it is, people have to do their own assessment,
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: like what are the things? What are the fears that
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: hold them back from performing at their best or going
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: after what they really want in life? Are they in
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: the same position for way too long? It's usually a
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: fear problem, So it's very individual. It's hard to answer
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: that question.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: But well, I wanted you to dish a little with me,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: like what are the tell tale signs not of the
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: workplace asshole, but someone who's kind of faking it?
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Again, I do think this is an issue for people
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: who want to rise in the workplace but they're blocked
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: by somebody standing in their way. I just I wanted
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: up make the point too about the stage thing, because
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I did the graduation speech last year from New House
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: and I was scared shitless.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I really was.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: I was really, really in a I think a good
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: way ultimately, but I had to get up there, do
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: a selfie, make a joke about the water underneath that
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: it was really possibly grain alcohol, which I used to
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: drink years ago as a kid at Syracuse. I had
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to kind of cut that fear down when I stood
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: in front of the audience at my wife's funeral and
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: had to break the ice with humor. It's sort of
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: how I go at it. What's the mistake you're most
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: proud of in your life?
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: One of the mistakes I'm probably most proud of is
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: I was doing leadership development at Abbott right when I
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: was spinning off to ABVI. I was in charge of
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: leadership development for our immunology division back in the humor
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: days for our commercial organizations. I was doing leadership development
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: and I found this is what I was meant to do.
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: You know, when you find the thing that aligns with
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: your soul and your values, like driving business by doing
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: leadership development was I was in flow and I left
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: that job because I was recruited by a company to
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: make an insane amount of money. It was the potential
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: was three times more, So I left. I went to
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: another company and I went back to doing sales, and
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: it was a great company. I mean, I man, sure,
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: it's Intuitive Surgical. So I went to Intuitive Surgical and
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: I was selling the Da Vinci robot. I had a
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: couple friends from Abby that had gone over there and
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: they loved Yeah.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: We worked for years.
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's amazing. Everything was really great. But what I
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: realized is I really missed doing the leadership development. But
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: I made a move primarily because of the income and
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: the technology is really cool too. Secondly, when I was
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: working in Chicago and flying there all the time, I
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: did come home and my youngest daughter is in kindergarten
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: and I came home home early on a Friday wants
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: to pick her up, and she was so excited to
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: see me because I'm gone so much, and she had
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: a picture of the family and I wasn't in it,
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: and so that's part of the reason. Also, I took
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: the job at Intuitive because it brought me closer to
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: home and it was a great job as a great opportunity,
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: but I'm like, I want to do leadership development. I
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: want to get back to it, and I want to
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: be able to do it when it worked for me
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: as a mom. So I took the leap and started
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: Breakthrough Leadership Group as a result of that. So I
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: don't regret. I mean, just taking that turn kind of
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: made me realize, like, no, I really want to focus
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: on leadership development and I want to be able to
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: be home more for the kids. And I realized it's
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: not the job forcing it, it's me. I love to work,
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: I love I'm passionate about work, so I'm probably always
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: going to be challenged by working too much.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: What's something you wrot want to get really real about
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty six?
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: What am I going to get really real about? Can
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: I tell you something totally personal?
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Well that's the whole point.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: That's a whole point. Always looking to how can I grow,
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: how can I get better? And what I'm getting really
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: real about is both of my girls are now in college.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: We're empty nesters, so I am one hundred percent focus.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: My number one goal is making my marriage even better.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: And I have a great marriage. By the way, this
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: is what causitive psychologists do too, like we don't wait
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: until things are broken. I have a very good marriage,
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: but I've been busy with the career of the kids,
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: have been around, and now I'm so excited. It's the
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: most important relationship in life. But that's what I want
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: to get really real about. And my husband's probably rolling
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: his eyes because he sometimes does. He's like, oh, what
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: does this mean. I'm like, but no, let's let's take
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: our relationship from good to great and to awesome. So
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: that is what I'm getting really real about this here.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: I'm dropping the mic on that one. I love that.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Jill. This was fun.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: I you can talk about bravery endlessly and lots more
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: of our people and companies and clients could use it.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I learned a lot today. Thanks.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: I was excited for this one, and thanks for sharing
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: your wisdom with us.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me and I so
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: enjoyed meeting you at that HbA leadership conference. And I'm
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: excited for you to read the book because I would
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: love to know what you think. It's an easy read
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: and it's also on audible.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Please.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, thanks for joining me on the get real podcast.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: You know, I hope you feel a little healthier hanging
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: out with me. You know it's going to be a
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: lot of fun. Passing this along to others. Please subscribe below,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Please share. I'm excited not just to talk about healthcare,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: but a lot of other fun topics. It's about making
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: healthy talk about healthcare. It is not a lecture. This
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: is supposed to be fun. And look forward to spending
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: more time with you in the future.