Latest / Unscripted Direct / Episode 160 - The One-Person Protest Committee (TOC Preview)

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Episode 160 - The One-Person Protest Committee (TOC Preview) · Unscripted Direct

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: Unscripted Direct is brought to you by Walkup Melodia Kelly and Schoenberger.
• 0:05
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• 0:12
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• 0:13
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• 0:15
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• 0:17
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• 0:21
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• 0:24
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• 0:37
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to Unscripted Direct.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_05: I'm Spencer Palkey from Berkeley Love.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_05: I'm Justin Bernstein, UCLA.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_05: This week we have results from four competitions.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_05: We have a preview of Tournament of Champions, including a conversation with the TOC board and an interview with host coach Caitlin Flynn.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_05: And we have four count them four mailbag questions.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_05: Four.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_05: But first, Spencer, I have to tell you, I was at a wedding this weekend and I thought of you.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's really that's really sweet, actually.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, it wouldn't even need to be a wedding, but that's really sweet.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: I got it, it begs a question.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Pray tell why.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a wedding?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: What?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Where?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: A wedding.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_05: Uh where is Los Angeles?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, you know what?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_05: You I'll let you ask the questions.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Where where did it occur, please?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: First?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh in Los Angeles.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's pretty big.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Is there any like any place in particular, maybe like a city or you know, part of it?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: At the Skirball Cultural Center, just north of Westwood.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, very good.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Who?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: Who are we talking who's getting married?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: One of my alums, Nathan Mostow.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, awesome.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's wonderful.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have any role in this this proceeding?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: I was a guest.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good role.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good role.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_05: I was a guest along with about a dozen UCLA trial team alums and coaches.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it was really cool.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_05: That is there were there were two full tables of UCLA trial team people.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was awesome.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and uh no doubt there to also celebrate a uh former Flash champion uh as well, right?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, come on.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: That that's correct.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh okay, let's talk about me.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what what made uh me cross your mind?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm afraid to ask.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: So this wedding was really cool.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Nathan's Jewish, his wife's family's from India, and two very different types of wedding ceremonies.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_05: So I was curious how they're gonna do it.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_05: What they did was they did both.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: So they they first they did an abbreviated Indian wedding.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_05: I say abbreviated, it was only 45 minutes, not 45 days.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Dreamright abbreviate.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I understood a few of the words.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_05: Um, like, hey, we're gonna take a 30-minute break and come back and do the other one.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_05: I understood that part.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so there were refreshments in between, like a mango lossy and some some tea, and it was great.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_05: So then we come back, we do the Jewish ceremony.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Jewish wedding is great.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_05: They had the uh the hoopah inside, uh the the the other uh the other canopy.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so that one was was was great.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And a cool visual too, by the way, to have the two structures like that.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_05: It was cool.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_05: They they brought that one in and they set it up inside.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_05: That's cool.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_05: Um it was it was really nice.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and I've I've never seen uh Indian family dancing the horror and being lifted in the chairs.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_05: Did you have one of the corners of the chair?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_05: Were you doing your work?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_05: So I tried to get in there, okay.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but I I was boxed out.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_05: So I I feel I feel bad I did not not get to lift the chair.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you tried.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_05: You tried.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I did.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_05: Um but I sent two of my larger students to do the dirty work.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_05: So later on, there's lots of dances, and the groomsmen are wearing traditional, I think, in Indian garb, and they throw Nathan in there and they have choreographed something, but he hasn't.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_05: Uh oh.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_05: And so he looks a little bit confused, and we're all I'm like, oh, this does not look good for our boy.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm sitting next to Nick Browski, who you know was his partner at your competition.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, great guy as well.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_05: And when I say, uh oh, this doesn't look good for Nathan, Nick just yells, he's got a flash trial that shit.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_05: So I love that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_05: And I I I'm now wondering, can we bring that expression flash?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_05: Because flash trials always it's always been a noun.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_05: That's it.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_05: Could it become a verb?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_05: So you got to flash trial that shit.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_05: So what other examples like where somebody could flash trial that shit?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_05: So for those who don't know, the flash trial is the tournament where uh run by Berkeley, where you get 60 minutes to prep an entire case uh that you know nothing about.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_05: I mean it's it's it's when you have to do something without adequate time to prepare.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can you could flash trial an exam.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: Not a great idea, but you could.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: It could be done, right?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: You you could flash trial an interview on unscripted direct.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: I never do that.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: No, no.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's so great.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's getting into the groundwater.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's where we want it.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_05: Deep, deep in the groundwater.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_05: So people have have examples of things that they've flash trialed, you know, like cooking or being an airplane pilot.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_05: Whatever.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_05: You just let us know anytime that you flash trialed that shit.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um I do have to uh a point of personal Berkeley privilege.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I've got to say that uh a bota uh of Northern California just hosted a flash trial event here at the Superior Court in San Francisco and had like 45 uh young lawyers do flash trials, um, which was super, super cool to see see it spreading, spreading into the out into the environment.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_05: I love that.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_05: Well, speaking of teams that did more than flash trial that shit, should we talk about some some winners?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about some winners in the break.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_05: We have results from Gold Cup in Sacramento run by McGeorge and the Sacramento DA's office.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_05: The semifinalists were San Diego and your UC Berkeley team, Go Bears, not Go Bears.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_05: The finalist was Fordham and the winner, UC Lost San Francisco.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: We also have results from the Conch Classic, spelled C-O-N-C-H, but it's a conch, conch shell, and this one's a classic.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: The finalist was Nova Southeastern, and the winner, St.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Thomas.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh where was that?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that was in Miami Gardens, Florida.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah?
• 5:37
  unknown: Mm-hmm.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Is that related?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: None related to him?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh nope.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: Miami Gardens, Florida is where it was.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: October 10th through 11, 2026.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Just checking who hosted it.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh High Alpha Delta, the Law Fraternity District uh looks like 32.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the Purdue Global Law School is what I try I I tried to stump him, but Claude came to the rescue.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: This is actually just a straight up Google search, but of course they crammed their AI to the top.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: So uh it could be wrong.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_05: Uh we also have results from Buffalo, Niagara.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_05: Our semifinalists were Baltimore and Mercer.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_05: Finalists was DePaul, and the winner, Stetson.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_05: Congratulations.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: We also have results from Illinois's, and that's a possessive.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's Illinois, but like the S on the N is possessive.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: Complex commercial litigation trial advocacy competition.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: Our semifinalists were Emery and Northwestern finalist, Southern Methodist, and our winner, Chicago, University of Chicago.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Who is the finalist?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, Southern Methodist.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_05: Southern Methodist does it really well.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_05: I've never seen any good results from Northern Methodist.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_05: Uh we also have results from college football.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_05: Uh we're we're gonna do this, you know, when appropriate, and this week is definitely appropriate.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's very appropriate.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_05: Texas lost to another unranked team, this time at home.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_05: Ouch! Four other allegedly top 10 teams also lost, including Georgia, Alabama, Indiana, Notre Dame, which made room for a new top 10 team.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_05: UCLA, fight, fight, fight.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_05: The Bruins didn't have their starting quarterback, but they had ethics, they had professionalism, and they had a strong run defense.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_05: And three points indeed.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, that's right.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_05: They're now six and oh.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_05: They are the only undefeated team left in the sport's two best conferences, SEC or Big Ten.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_05: Meanwhile, your Nebraska team had one of their best games of the year, losing by only three to the Oregon team UCLA beat last week.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_05: Congrats, Spencer.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_05: Keep it close.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, and to make it even worse, oh, the guy who beat us was the guy who left as our quarterback last year and talked smack about us this year.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we're classy and um we we are on the road to success, and uh victory will be ours in the end.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I think you're gonna have to wait for the end.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: Since some it's it's I've been waiting 25 years.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's out there further than that, I've discovered so far.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I I I we won't need to talk about Cal football.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_05: Uh that's fine.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_05: We'll we'll wait for a week where we've done better.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_05: But for right now, it's exciting to be at UCLA.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about some other champions, Justin.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: You had a nice little tournament of champions uh interview this weekend with Joanne Van Dyke and Judge Roberts.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_05: And I know you you wanted to make it, you couldn't join, and we did not make fun of you for for missing the interview.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm glad to hear that.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, yeah, glad to hear that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, have a listen.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_05: We welcome back to the show the Terminative Champions board members, Joanne Van Dyke from Syracuse and Judge Jim Roberts from Cumberland.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks for coming on.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having us.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, thank you.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_05: Joanne, we'll start with you.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_05: How are you doing?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just returned from uh the Buffalo competition, and I'm really glad to be home.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_05: So how far are Syracuse and Buffalo from each other?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty close.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's only about a two and a half hour drive, but it is colder up there than it is here.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_05: So I think in some ways, New York and California are the opposite in this regard.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_05: If people in California hear that that it's two places in New York, one's Manhattan and the other is another part of New York, it sort of feels like it's so far away.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_05: Whereas with California, people go, oh, those are two cities in California.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_05: They must be right next to each other, like San Diego and San Francisco, when actually they're they're nine hours apart.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_05: So how far are you in Syracuse from New York City?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're about four and a half hours, but actually, New York State is really the city, New York, and then upstate, which is, you know, probably uh people consider that to be, you know, just farm country.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the whole state is made up of the city, which is fine.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love the city.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_05: Well, my my my students have enjoyed visiting Syracuse in January the last few years, and I and I have enjoyed letting them and staying here.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, good, good.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_05: Now you're hosting the Syracuse National Trauma Competition this coming weekend, right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: I am.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh as usual, I well, all the past years I've written fact patterns about things I know nothing about, like guns or dating app.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Knew nothing about it, didn't know the words to use, had to go to my students for that.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and by the way, I was told by Stetson that when it came to guns and how they're used, that I did pretty good.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: But this year I wrote about law students and people on trial teams and appellate versus trial team and all of that.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was so much fun.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I stuck a bunch of things in there and I got some comments from friends of mine, and it was just great to write something about something that I know about for change.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: So, how do you balance hosting the SNTC, the Syracuse National Trial Competition, the same weekend that you're coordinating Terminative Champions?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_05: How do you balance that?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's Jim.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: He does all the work.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I love the fact that when uh working with Jim, I kind of read thousands of pages of fictional case files, which is easy, while Jim does all the real work on all the numbers and everything else.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: So having Jim here is what it's all about.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_05: Well, then let me turn to Judge Roberts and ask him a similar balancing question.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_05: You're coaching your second competition of semester, you coached first chair at now TOC.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_05: So, how do you balance coaching with your judicial responsibilities to the University of Alabama's athletic program?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is a delicate balancing act.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think that the most honest answer is I really don't know.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just do what's in front of me and get it done and move to the next thing.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um, how are you doing, Judge?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing good.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing good.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to see you and uh Justin and Joanne, and always good to see Spencer also.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, he's not he's not here.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_05: We're oh oh oh that's weird.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_05: That's weird.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I'm sure he'll sign on any minute.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_05: Uh before we started recording, Joanne, you were talking to me about how it's so strange that the the history of the TOC board and how how how much this current board or your recent board is so different than when you joined.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_05: Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you're telling me?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so when I first got involved and was coaching teams to go to TOC, Eddie was on the board with Larry Sutter from Akron and Sue Poles from Loyal LA.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_05: And when I hold on, I've never heard people call her Sue Poles.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_05: What do you call her?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I've always been told it's either Professor Poles or it's Susan, but I never heard Soup poles.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_05: I like that.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's that comes with knowing her for 30 years, practically.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_05: Did you call her Sue?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, go on.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a different world back then when it was uh Susan, since you like to call her that, and uh Larry and I, because I think we spent a lot of time with Larry making him feel like he wasn't being beaten on by two women and with his beautiful accent.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it was just a whole different world.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, Larry was just uh wonderful to deal with, but if you disagreed with him, he always felt like it was the two of us, the two women, ganging up on him, and nobody could gang up on Larry.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I also loved going to competitions with Larry, he always would find out what your favorite thing was and he'd make sure he had it there.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: So he was terrific to have on the board and so supportive of the program.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I miss having Larry on the board, I miss having Susan on the board, and I think everyone here agrees it's very hard uh to not see her competitions, to not talk to her.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think I used to talk to her two or three times a week uh during trial team season and not, and it's difficult to uh to not have her around.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_05: Judge, I know that you and Susan were close.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_05: What's it been like as this is the first TFC I think you've been on the committee without her, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Being the first time on the committee without her for both uh me and Joanne, and um it's just you know, it's a whole.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um like Joanne have known Susan for almost 30 years, one of the first coaches I met when I started, and this is my 29th year.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh just an extraordinary person, and she was wonderful to work with on the board.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um just very much a um guiding light for this entire community, and certainly through her work on the TOC board, she was just tremendously impactful for the entire community.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I just uh like Joanne talked to her multiple times a week all the time and uh shared about our families and and everything else, and she was not just a mentor with regard to uh coaching, but she was a mentor with regard to life, and uh I I miss her terribly.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_05: Who is sponsoring this year's tournament champions?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: The firm that sponsors TOC is trial lawyers for justice, and two of the partners in that firm were actually Susan's students.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh were on her NTC teams also, and Susan actually secured them as a sponsor a couple of years ago.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_05: Joanne, who's hosting TOC this year?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's Hoster this year with Jared Rosenblatt.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_05: Is that why you scheduled the Syracuse competition the same weekend so you didn't have to go see Jared?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have to find some kind of excuse, but I love seeing Jared.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_05: Judge, tell us about this year's case, the 2026 TOC case by Matt Woodham.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is uh a civil case this year, as you know, TOC rotates civil and criminal on the same schedule as NTC uh rotates civil and criminal.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the case is the estate of Anne Church versus Joyride Incorporated.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it is a case involving a golf cart uh ride share transport service that uh specializes in giving rides to uh college students who have uh likely been drinking.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um during one of those rides, Ms.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Church fell from the golf cart and was injured, and she has sued the golf cart company under three theories, and the golf cart company has uh answered with two affirmative defenses.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_05: And what's your theme on the plaintiff and defense?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um so my theme on the plaintiff is this is all a bunch of bull.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And my theme on the defense is she got what she had coming.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, makes sense.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_05: Uh we don't have themes.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_05: We only believe in case frames, um, you know, um, as as you heard earlier this season.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so this is Matt Matt Woodham.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_05: Would how do you say his last name, Judge?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_05: Woodham.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, that's wrong.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, this is Matt Woodham's sixth tournament of champions case.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_05: What would you say is his biggest improvement as a case writer?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_05: What's something he used to be really bad at and is now merely a little bit bad at?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: He used to be really bad at um getting his original idea to the board.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he is much better about giving an original idea to the board.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Baby steps.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I remember in the beginning he used to give us outlines.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then we'd say, just give us something more.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and also I think that he really liked cross-examination himself.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we always had tons to cross on, and it almost made it hard when you were uh coaching a TLC team to figure out what to use and what not to use.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_05: Now, in preparation for this year's competition, my team scrimmaged a very good team from Baylor.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_05: And during that scrimmage, one student referred to Robert Little, who was presiding, as professor.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_05: And I thought I must have misheard her the first time, but she said it again.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_05: She called him professor.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_05: Joanne, have you ever heard someone refer to Robert Little as professor?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Never.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've never I I should do that though.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: He he uh is the professor of all sorts of things.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I heard like like what?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: How to mix a drink.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_05: I I don't think I've ever seen him drink.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Then let me say how to run a great tournament because he does run a great tournament.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Judge, have you ever heard somebody call him professor?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard people call Robert Little a lot of things.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Professor was never one of them.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_05: Are you gonna start calling him Professor Little?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_05: Now, what do you think that that says?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_05: The fact that people are calling him professor.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_05: What does that say about this the state of higher education in America?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that it is rapidly descending.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Judge, who are the teams joining TOC for the first time this year?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, new to the field this year as opposed to last year are Baylor, Florida International, Harvard, and Maryland.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Baylor hosted last year, and that's why they compete.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: They chose not to compete.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: They would have otherwise.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Harvard and Maryland have both been in TOC in past years, but they're they're new to it this year.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: As far as uh I was able to determine, this is Florida International's first time ever competing in the tournament.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_05: Very cool.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_05: That that's after their great run at AAJ Nationals last year.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they had two two years of good runs at AAJ National.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_05: The Saturday banquet is at Barelli's.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_05: That's a mainstay for any tournament hosted by Jared.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um, Judge, tell us about the food.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_05: I I've never been.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_05: What can I expect at Borelli's this on this Saturday night?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's excellent food.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's Italian.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what Jared does is he orders several of their entrees to be set out in a buffet style so that you can uh get as much as you want, all you want to eat, and they just keep bringing the food out the whole time that the banquet's running, and it's excellent.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: You got a lot of good choices.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, what's your favorite?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they do a really good chicken parm.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_05: Stop right there.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_05: That's all that's all I needed to hear.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_05: Joanne, have you been to Brelli's?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I was there last year, and it was great.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, veal Parm is wonderful, everything's wonderful there.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they bring out great Italian, actual Italian pastries, not the fake American style.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: I like that.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: All right.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_05: One one last question for you about this year's Tournament Champions, hosted by Hopstra.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_05: For the protest committee, Joanne, have you considered replacing the committee and just having Jared do it by himself?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Would never do that.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_05: Why not?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: You would walk in there and he'd say, Listen, just have a cup of coffee, get along, get out of here.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes we I think sometimes it's better to have a little bit more than that.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just joking.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: He would do more than that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: But last time I uh every time I walk into a room with Jared, whether it's to protest or not, he's like, sit down, have a cup of coffee, have something to eat.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think it's good to have uh the group.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_05: Well, if if I knew that there was coffee and snacks, I'd I might want to get protested more.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_05: That that sounds pretty good.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have to come to Syracuse because we have coffee, snacks, sandwiches, the whole thing.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_05: But are you limiting those things to the people who get protested?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely not.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: People who I like and get protested.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_05: All right.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_05: Well, fair, fair.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're not gonna let him be the entire committee, judge, what do you think about at least letting him deliver all the decisions?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_05: Like people walk in and goes, listen up, the committee says you you fucking cheated, you lost three points, get out of here.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I would have taken off more, I would have taken off a limb.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_05: You know, would you consider that?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know if you've ever been at a tournament that Jared has hosted, but his announcements are one of a kind, they are absolutely phenomenal.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: I remember one year at first chair, he's getting to ready to announce the winner of the best judge award.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a coach who I will not name was sitting down next to where Jared was standing to make the presentation.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Jared heard that coach say, Oh, I hope it's me.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And Jared just turned and looked at him and said, It ain't F and you.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_05: Except he didn't say Evan.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: He did not.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: He did not.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_05: Uh well, thank you both for coming on.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for what you do for the community and for helping to put on this great event.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_05: We're looking forward to it.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Jess.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's it's an honor to serve.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Joanne, good luck with SNTC.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Judge, I will.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: See you in uh just a few days.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good luck to both of you.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds good.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Good to see you.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: As you've no doubt heard and know, Hofstra is hosting the Tournament of Champions this year.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: But since we had Jared on last week, we decided to have another Hopstra star on this week.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: I had a chance to chat with Caitlin Flynn, or as Jared calls her, Flynn.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Caitlin's a former Top Gun finalist, a practicing lawyer, and a coach at Hopstra.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_05: Here's Caitlin.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_05: Please introduce yourself to the jury.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Hi everyone.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me, Justin.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Caitlin Flynn.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm one of the Mock Trial coaches at Hofstra.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_05: What do you do for a living apart from your role at Hofstra?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm currently a prosecutor at the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: Now, Caitlin, you went to college at Villanova where you competed on the mock trial team there.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: I did.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: How much of your time was spent inventing facts?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_05: 80%, 90%?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_05: I understand.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_05: When I was a wit.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I just understand that's that's all people do in Amta, right?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, correct.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Especially when I was a witness, I would say about 80%.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: Uh kidding aside, uh, how much did undergraduate mock trial prepare you for law school mock trial and being a real trial lawyer?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think the general skill set of how to do an opening, a summation, direct, and cross.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, certainly though, when I started competing at Hofstra, Jared told me forget everything you learned at Villanova and we're gonna start over.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: So for the general skills, a lot, but for the actual details of what I had to do for Jared and for Hofstra, a lot different.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_05: Why do you think that college mock trial gets a bad rap at the law school level?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_05: And how fair is that?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm not sure.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe college mock trial is focused a little more on performance, um, especially because the witnesses are actually scored, and that counts towards a team's win or loss of a round.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think putting more pressure on performance and less pressure on substance gives it a bad rap compared to what we do at the law school level.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_05: Now you mentioned Jared and Hostra.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_05: You went there for law school, uh, where you competed on the trial team.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, here's how Jared summarized your Maxhaw career.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_05: One one Tyler Regionals is a 1L, one Tyler Regionals is a 2L.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_05: Very impressive.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_05: Only regional losses is a 3L when coaches judged, and these are Jared's words, fix was obviously in.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_05: Uh do you want to elaborate?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if that's necessarily true.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'll defer to his opinion on it, but um I remember competing that semester, and I didn't do that well.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I can take the blame for that.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think we need to blame other coaches for that.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_05: Were coaches judging in the round where you were eliminated?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I believe so, yes, but I'm not saying there's correlation there.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_05: Understood.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um, Jared was your coach.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, what is your favorite Jared story that you can share without exposing anyone to liability?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's that's a great question.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, probably my top gun story.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we I'll I'll make a long story short.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: We were, I was two and two after the preliminary rounds.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we kind of thought that's it, not advancing, got rid of all our materials, went to the bar where they were making the announcement.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Robert Little announced the first pairing, team A versus team N.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: I looked at Jared, I said, I'm N.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: He said, no, they didn't say N.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: I said, okay.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no one else was standing up though.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: So Robert Little again said, okay, team N.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and again I looked at Jared.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Jared, I'm N.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: He definitely said N.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And in front of everyone, um, Jared said, nope, that's not what happened.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's not right.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's not right.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there was a very awkward silence amongst the room.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Robert Little had to say, no, it is right.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, she did advance.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so that's that's one of my favorite Jared stories.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_05: And and you had to go get new materials because he tossed all the materials.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: I also had to do a deposition.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's the year that there was a deposition round.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it was uh quite the end of the night.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_05: Uh what is your best Jared impression?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'll I could just curse for five words in a row.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's I think that would be my best Jared impression, but I don't want to do that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_05: Here's my best Jared impression.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_05: We'll see if I can do it.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's pretty good.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_05: Phil taught me that one.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that that's a good one.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_05: Now you've had an unusual and impressive career after law school.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_05: After graduating in 2013, you became a prosecutor.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_05: After about five years, you joined a large firm, Ribkin Radler, with you know 250 lawyers, six offices.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_05: You made partner, and then you left to go back to a DA's office.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_05: Why did you leave the DA's office for private practice?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: And why'd you go back?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I left the DA's office.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I wish I had a better reason, but it was for money.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um I had a lot of loans and a lot of expenses, so I needed to make some money.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the reason I left Queens to go to Rifkin Radler.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I loved Rifkin.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I really had I spent eight and a half, almost nine years there.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, I made partner.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_05: Um and then you decided you didn't like money anymore?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, basically.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um I this is gonna sound like a very cheesy interview answer, but I truly missed advocating for victims and justice and kind of the better good um versus advocating for billion-dollar insurance carriers.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the less cheesy answer, I hated billing and billable hours uh and couldn't imagine spending the rest of my career living by 0.1s and in six-minute increments.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think it's really impressive.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I know you said it may sound cheesy.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_05: I think that when you have that kind of uh opportunity to make make that money and you give it up, that's not cheesy.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_05: That's just the truth.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you you obviously put your money where your mouth is.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Caitlin, what's the biggest impact that Mock Charles had on your career?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when I started at the DA's office, it it was very, very helpful.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of knew I had a base level of skill.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I I knew how to do a direct and a cross and an opening and a summation.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it introduced me to a lot of people, both when I was competing, I met a lot of students, and now that I'm coaching, I've met a lot of other coaches.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's kind of expanded a network that I don't think I would have without mock trial.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_05: I I understand you tried a case with Jared, where not only were you colleagues at the council table, but you were also his directing attorney.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_05: What happened?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we needed to introduce, I believe, um, grand jury testimony, grand jury minutes without calling a witness.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it was kind of hearing within a trial.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, I needed to direct Jared.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: And pretty much I said the people call Jared Rosenblatt.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: He took the stand.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: I asked him, please state your name for the record.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: He said Jared Rosenblatt, and then he did what every attorney hates, and he just rambled for about 10 minutes.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I said, anything else?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he said no.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that and that was the extent of my direct.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_05: So the the story he adds is at the end, he said, one second, Judge, let me see if I have anything else.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_05: And he yelled from the witness stand, You're done.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that that is what happened.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, here's another Jared story.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: We were preparing to go to San Francisco for the Golden Gate competition.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we were supposed to leave the day after Hurricane Sandy hit.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, many people know that Hurricane Sandy hit New York pretty hard and Long Island pretty hard.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we were at Hofstra kind of doing a final run through of everything, and the school was being evacuated.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Security was walking through the school, making sure everybody was out of the building, and Jared made us turn the lights off in 202, close the doors, lock the doors, and hide so that we wouldn't have to leave.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we could finish preparing for the competition.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's commitment.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yes, on Jared's part.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we we really wanted to have you on because of your work at Hofstra, where you're now a special professor of law.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, what makes you special?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very fancy title.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure it's an appropriate title, to be honest.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_05: It's really fancy.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm jealous.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I'm gonna call myself a special podcaster.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_05: How long have you been coaching?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh since I graduated, so since 2014.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_05: What has been your favorite experience as a coach?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think, and I this is true every single year, so it's not a specific experience, but my favorite thing about coaching um is watching students progress from their very, very first competition to their very last competition.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, seeing their progression in their skills, their confidence levels go up, I think is the most rewarding part about coaching.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you've always struck me as really humble.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm gonna ask you to do something difficult, which is brag a little bit.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_05: What would you say you are especially good at at teaching or coaching?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_05: What skill and advocacy um are you especially good at helping the students make breakthrough, breakthroughs with?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think I I kind of borrow page from Jared here.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm good at teaching um delivery in in sarcasm in particular for cross-examination.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think I'm good at delivery in general and openings, um, kind of the storytelling aspect of opening statements.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: I like to not just teach them how to do it, but demonstrate how to do it.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of the times in during during the semester, um I get up and actually do the openings for them, which I think is helpful.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that is one of the skills that I have.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_05: Is there uh a result from coaching you're especially proud of?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think two stick out.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, last semester, last spring, I coached um both of Hofstra's AAJ teams.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was myself, Gabby Malfey, Adam Raffo, and I think Allie Laird.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um we coached all eight students kind of as one collective whole, which was logistically very difficult.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but both teams advanced to the semifinals, um, which I was very proud of.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: One team in particular was made up of two L's, um, and they were the one seed going into semifinals.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I've had a team of students work as hard as that team.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a very rewarding um finish at that competition.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: The other one that stands out is I believe it was 2022.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we won the St.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: John Civil Rights Competition and we were in the final round.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Jared came to the finals to watch.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when they announced that Hofstra won, Jared said, Flynn, is this your first win?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I realized that it was.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that was uh also very rewarding.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_05: That's awesome.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_05: I want to turn to the fun stuff.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_05: You're a huge fan, I'm told, of Villanova basketball.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Go cats.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_05: If you had to choose between Villanova winning March Madness or Hofstra, Hofstra winning Tyler Nationals, which one would you pick?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Impossible decision.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I don't know.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta stay loyal to Villanova.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta go Villanova winning a championship, but that's a really difficult decision.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, Villanova's won already, so maybe Hofstra.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_05: I that's the answer I thought you were gonna give.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_05: I'm told that one of your big hobbies is running.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yes.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_05: Like like for fun, like you actually enjoy running long distances.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I do.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't usually enjoy it while it's happening, but uh right after the runner's high is a real thing.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I do enjoy it.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_05: At what point does somebody get to experience the runner's high?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_05: Because I I I I've not gotten there.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: The the longest run I've done is a half marathon.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I've done a few of those.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I did a half iron man, which is a triathlon last year.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um usually I would say maybe after like six miles.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Anything over six is when the runner's high compared to the pain of running, the ratio is a little off.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_05: So I will never experience that.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_05: That's good to know.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um when you're running, do you prefer music or podcasts?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Music.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: I music, a hundred percent.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_05: What kind of music do you like to listen to while you're running?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh kind of a mix of everything.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: I really like country music.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: I like house music, pop, hip-hop, really everything.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't discriminate.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: My playlist is very eclectic.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_05: I hear that you are the worst flyer in the world.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_05: Is that true or false?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: True, true.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: I won't I'm not even ashamed to admit it.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_05: Explain.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily a fear of flying.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: I get very bad motion sickness.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so once I start to feel sick, then I get really um like anxious being on a flight.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Jared unfortunately has been uh witness to that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm assuming that's where you got that information from.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, I I I got it from Delta.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: I did, I did make, I think it was a Delta flight land in Kansas City once.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: So wait, what?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's how sick I got.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I was flying from San Diego back to New York, and I got so sick they had to medically divert to Kansas City.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's serious.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_05: Were you okay?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally fine once I got off the plane.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_05: Uh at what point did you realize that that was gonna that that that was necessary, that they were gonna have to land the plane because of you?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I realized it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just knew I was very sick.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I passed out on the flight.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so once I realized that they there was a nurse sitting next to me, the flight attendants were very concerned.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I didn't want to land the plane.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, everybody on the flight hated me.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I I didn't really have a choice at that point.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_05: W was this uh related to a competition?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_05: Is that where you were flying?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, this was vacation.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_05: So you're like you didn't inconvenience anybody you cared about, you know.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, who cares about all those other passengers?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, there are no teammates or coaches.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_05: You're fine.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: To make it worse, the nurse that sat with me was uh on her way to her honeymoon.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: So all right.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_05: Well, she got there.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_05: Eventually, um Jared said to me that he got to the point where he wouldn't even sit near you on the plane.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, he said, quote, she vomited at least five times on a flight.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_05: Does he mean on the same flight or were these five different flights?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: But honestly, he I I've lost count.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: He's probably lost count, but that's true.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: He will not sit next to me.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he will go up to the gate and change his flight if he finds out we're anywhere near each other.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_05: That's incredible.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or change the seat rather.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_05: Thank goodness we were done with this uh segment.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, no more nausea questions.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_05: Caitlin, last question for you.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_05: What is your favorite thing that you're good at?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_05: And your favorite thing, even though you're not so good at it.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, favorite thing that I'm good at.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would say I'm I'm fairly good at, I'll classify it as backyard lawn games.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so like cornhole and can jam.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_04: Wait, what's the what's the second one?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Can jam.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a frisbee game.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_04: Explain.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is a very, a very long island suburban thing, I guess.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um basically it's two against two, and there's a what looks like a garbage can with a little hole in it, and you have to throw the frisbee into the hole or on top of the garbage can.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_05: I'll ask a follow-up that you know a very small but uh significant subset of our listeners will care about.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_05: Can you gamble on this?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh sure.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think you can gamble on anything, really.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: So sure.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: You can put money on it.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_05: That's a great attitude.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so long games, that's your favorite thing you're good at.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_05: What's your favorite thing, not so good at?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I enjoy cooking and baking, but I'm really terrible at it.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: Really bad at it.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I yeah, just it doesn't come naturally to me.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have any culinary instincts.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really bad at following a recipe.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's just nothing comes out good or how it's supposed to.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I was better, but I'm not.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_05: Do you think it tastes good and other people don't?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_05: Or just like even you are like, this is not that good?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think it's across the board.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think everybody's in agreement that it's usually not the best.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_05: Have you gotten, have you tried to get better?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_05: Have you sort of given up?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_05: Like what's going on?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think at this point I've I've given up.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: My husband is an excellent cook, so I've kind of delegated that responsibility to him.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_05: I'll often ask people what's their best dish.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_05: What's your worst dish?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like something you've made multiple times shouldn't be that hard, but it's just not good.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think you you the better question is probably what's my best dish?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because my worst dish is everything else.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: I can make really good French toast, but everything else is bad.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, French toast it is.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_05: Caitlin, thank you for coming on.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_05: This is a lot of fun.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_05: All right, we turn to our mailbag.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: We have four questions this week.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_05: That's pretty good.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_05: Spencer, you ready?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm ready.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm buckled in.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I need, right?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_05: All right.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_05: This question comes from NC, Anonymous Listener NC.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_05: How do you handle really bad judge feedback, the kind that contradicts the consensus for good trial advocacy?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Spencer, Spencer, if you were to go to tournaments still, what would you do if you heard a judge give good give really bad feedback?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: Do you mean this as a coach or as a tournament director?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um As a as a coach.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_05: I I I that's how I took the question.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_05: So if your team gets really bad feedback, uh, what do you do?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: I I change all of my principles, practices, and prior learnings.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: I revamp the entire program.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: I orient everything we do going forward based upon that feedback to follow it exactly.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: That makes sense.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: But what if what if the other judge disagrees?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's a very short little you know, period of rain for that that view of things.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: No, but for real.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh for real.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: I just ignore it completely and I encourage the students to ignore it.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, perhaps in the past have encouraged them to ignore it before hearing it, actually.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: What do you do?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_05: Uh the same.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you you talk to the students about you know why that that's wrong, right?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_05: I'll give you an example that we had recently.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, we were at a competition in California, and uh one of the judges after the round said to my student, Your impeachment was great, but you forgot the last step.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_05: You need to ask the witness.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_05: So you admit that you lied.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_05: And Spencer, as I said it, as I was talking, he's like shaking his head, looking down.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_05: Because we all teach our students don't ask that one question too many.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_05: And that's a perfect example of what I think everybody trains their student not to do.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_05: And this was a veteran trial lawyer, a prosecutor who said that your cross was missing that.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_05: And that's super frustrating to a student because they're like, wait, I thought I was doing everything right.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I think the the only thing I can do, and the only thing I I I know to do in that situation is remind them that they did the right thing, why it's the right thing, but also use it as a teaching moment to say, like, trial work is never going to be predictable.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_05: The things we can do is put ourselves in the best chance to win a verdict or a mock trial, but you're never gonna make everybody happy all the time.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_05: And if that's what you're looking for, this is the wrong job.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: Such good advice because yeah, I mean it's it's not a science, despite despite all the efforts, it remains an art.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I always think when when that happens, I'm just like I hope it's not in a knockout round.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_05: You know, like you just hope that it's right.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but in real life, they're all knockout rounds.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: Ugh, I've noticed.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: All right, okay, what else we got here?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_05: Second mailbag question comes from anonymous listener FB.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_05: Now that the podcast game is pay-to-play, are you going to use your big financial backers to get a billboard?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_05: That's what all the podcasters are doing now.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: I noticed that.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: I see all these podcasters.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: All it is in San Francisco is is uh is plaintiffs, personal injury attorneys, and AI startups.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's all it is.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, the the podcasters are really getting in on that too.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a competitive market, but I don't know, should we have a meeting right now about it?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't know.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: What do we do like a what a$50 million ad buy, you think, and just see what works?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_05: Well, well, if we're gonna do a meeting about it, let's first call roll.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_05: Spencer?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh here Justin, here.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, let's do it.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_05: All right, we've got Gore.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh okay uh proposal.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: We spend um$50 million on an advertising campaign where we try to blanket the land with billboards uh of unscripted direct with both of our faces just right on it.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_05: I'm fine with it, but I just have one question.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_05: When you say we spend, what is what is who's the week?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we'll just take it out of the till, you know.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean the unscripted direct till, you know, just as you know, just extra money floating around from all of our success in this project.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, we're gonna table the motion.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_05: All right.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_05: Next, next mailbag question number three.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, this comes from uh listener uh BD uh from Texas.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_05: Last week you asked how eight judges should be divided, four and four or three and three.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_05: Did you forget you'd already answered that question in previous episodes?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um funny enough, I don't think that I did completely forget because I think I said I thought I had answered it before.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: I just couldn't remember how I answered it.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess I remember I had answered it, but not how.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so credit to you.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_05: You correctly clocked uh when I asked you the question that we discussed it before and that you'd answered it before.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_05: And your answer was consistent.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_05: You were wrong last time and wrong this time.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_05: So kudos on your consistency.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_05: Uh now the failing here to remember was mine.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and so I could say, you know, I made a mistake by re-asking a question from a guest that answered from a previous guest.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_05: But I could say that.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_05: You could I could say that, but I won't.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_05: Instead, I'm gonna say I think it just shows that our listenership is growing.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, that that new listener, uh, you know, they should go back and listen to old episodes.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_05: And the and the listener, again, we keep it anonymous, but the listener who submitted that question was AJBDL.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_05: And clearly, AJBDL just needs to listen to more UD.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and he or she or he uh will be caught up.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_05: All right, indeed.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_05: Last mail black question: what are your favorite clips from real trials to show in class or practice?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Let me think about this actually.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: I I guess I'll just answer it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: I in in our in our class, Jenna and I actually use, you know, in large part because of the great availability of it, um clips from mock trial that we think really executes on things that we like or exemplifies how you can do things or you might not want to, you know, do it differently, that kind of things.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: All the, you know, basically this is the set of teaching points that we want at the outset of the semester.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: We always we always talk about what are the core competencies of you know of a Berkeley trial lawyer.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: And we use these clips to teach semi-socratically, you know, what works, what doesn't work.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you know, it's a bunch of top gun things, but also other uh other competitions where we're able to pull video from.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's what we do.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: That is, uh, I guess the answer to your question would be none.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the answer to my question is uh a lot of great uh law school trial advocacy.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: How about you?
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, your your class though, that's exclusively students who are on the team or who are auditing to be on the team, right?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Although there's no more auditing.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but yes, just for the record.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_05: So it makes sense then that there'd be a distinction because those are students who are preparing to learn trial skills through mock trial exclusively.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so we use almost the opposite approach because it's a class.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_05: When I teach the trial class, it's only a tiny, only a tiny fraction of them are on the team.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_05: And I use almost all real trials.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want the students to get the sense that I'm teaching a mock trial class.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um so I use a lot of OJ.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_05: And when I used to use OJ, I think the students had more familiarity with it, but I actually like it even better now because when they don't know what it's about, you it opens up um more things you can do with it.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_05: For example, I love to use the beginning of Marcia Clark's Kate O'Kalen direct because the students don't know who he is or how he's involved.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_05: And after a couple minutes, I pause it and I say, okay, how do you think this person fits into the prosecution's case?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_05: And they're like, Oh, he's an alternate suspect, or maybe he was sleeping with a victim, or they have no idea that he lived with the defendant.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_05: That's eyewitness testimony.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: But it's such a perfect example of how when the jury doesn't know how the person fits into the case, you got to tell them right away.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_05: And so I like the the OJ case because you get examples of really good at lawyering and also really bad lawyering.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_05: And the students are sort of excited about it because they've heard it before, but they don't they don't know you know a ton about it at this at this age.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um you also have a lot of courtroom view stuff you probably use.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of your clients, the people you're working with, are on courtroom view.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if you use that stuff.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Curious.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I have not.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um I I try not to to make it about the stuff that I've worked on, um, but but I have thought about it because there's some stuff I really like that that people I've worked with have done, and I'd I'd love to show it.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, uh, but so I I use some mantra in class.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_05: Um I use some Matreel uh clips of witness control because I think that real witnesses don't fight as effectively as Matra witnesses.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_05: So I use some Matrell witness control.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um and then I use the expert direct that Phil Pascarello and Jess Falkenstein, now Jess Pascarello did at Terminative Champions.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_05: Phil does a great job on direct, and Jess is an extraordinarily good expert.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_05: And so I use that to talk about how to use demonstrative aids, how to make your witness sound incredible, uh, because those two were just dynamite.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_05: So I like to use that and then say, and they got married.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like, so I'm like, you know, you're not just here learning trial out, you might be mute meeting your future partner.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's always weird when people say that.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: But I will hand it to you that you know, you've really bookended the episode, you know, a little wedding at the beginning, a little wedding at the end.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's really nicely done.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: Nice execution.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, you know, we do our best.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh well this was our best.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_05: Uh when are you getting to New York for Tournament of Championship?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'll be there November um 16th, I think is when I get in.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: Is that too late or by a month?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, well, um close, you know, close.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we we will be sad to miss you.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_05: I figured you'd you'd leave before the tournament started, uh, but I didn't know that you'd I'm leaving to go somewhere else before the tournament starts.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: Fair enough.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: Go to Alaska.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_05: You know, in fairness to you, you went to New York, I think, last month.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_05: So you were already there for tournament of champions.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, I was there for average, like I was there.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know, in like sort of like a wave article duality kind of way, you know.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that's time to shut down the episode.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, everybody.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: See you folks.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: Unscripted Direct is a production of Justin and Spencer.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're mixed and edited by the Sam Chase.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: If you're not on the list server but want to get our blast email each episode, sign up at www.unscripteddirect.com.
• 46:11
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• 46:14
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• 46:16
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• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: And Twitter is at unscripted.