Latest / The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast / 50. Part One: Do they really have a personality disorder? ...Why it's time to stop calling abusers "narcissists"

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50. Part One: Do they really have a personality disorder? ...Why it's time to stop calling abusers "narcissists" · The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for joining me for another episode of the Post-Separation Abuse Podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, danielle Black.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I'm an Australian specialist separation, divorce and co-parenting coach, specialising in helping women navigate separation, divorce and co-parenting with a controlling former partner.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone who's been tuning in to my post-separation abuse unpacked series.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Even though I only touched fairly briefly on the topic of post-separation abuse, I hope that you found it informative and valuable information for your journey.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you also to all of my listeners who have hung in there with my recent inconsistency with the podcast.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: June has really been one heck of a month for me and my mojo has taken a bit of a hit.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: My stepfather passing away has had a big impact on my family and has had an impact on the amount of time that I've had available for recording episodes.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: In today's episode, what I'd like to cover is a worrying trend and I have touched on this in the past and I do often touch on this with my clients a worrying trend of referring to abusive former partners as narcissists or assuming that they have a personality disorder.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Danielle Black and I'm the coach you need if you're dealing with post-separation abuse.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I help you make sense of ongoing abusive behaviour after separation and help you take back your power and control.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Let's go.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: The reality is that most abusers do not have a personality disorder.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: That is fact as far as the math goes.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So the number of people talking about former partners as being quote-unquote narcissists and referring to them as having personality disorders as the saying goes, the math ain't mathing.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: When any client initially talks to me, I approach the conversation with them about their former partner from an understanding of the fact that they likely do not have a personality disorder.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: My views may change depending on what they share with me about that person's behavior, but my first instinct is not to assume that somebody has a personality disorder again, because most abusers don't.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: If you've spent any time Googling your former partner's behaviour or personality traits, you might have started to wonder if they're a narcissist, if they're suffering from narcissistic personality disorder or another personality disorder such as borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, colloquially known as psychopaths or sociopaths.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: You may have noticed, particularly in the world of social media, that the term narcissist has gradually begun to replace the word abuser in many conversations, personally and professionally.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I think that pattern is a big problem and in this episode I'm going to unpack why I believe that and why I want you to be wary of falling for that as well, Wary of adopting the pattern of referring to abusers, particularly abusive men, as being quote-unquote narcissists, which in and of itself assumes that they are personality disordered.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Narcissism as a trait exists on a spectrum and it does not in and of itself cause someone to be controlling or abusive.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: A certain amount of narcissism is actually necessary for healthy self-esteem.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Higher levels of narcissism can contribute to problematic behavior patterns, including behavior patterns that can be experienced as abusive.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: It's important to note that there is a difference between someone who might be a bit narcissistic, as in someone who demonstrates higher levels of a narcissism trait, and someone who demonstrates traits consistent with narcissistic personality disorder.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: There is a difference between someone who is a bit narcissistic and someone who has a personality disorder.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: There are plenty of people walking around who are narcissistic, who do not have anything going on with their mental health.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: They do not have a diagnosable mental illness or personality disorder.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: It's really important to note here that I think many abusers are falsely referred to as narcissists or as having a personality disorder, because what underpins the behavior of all abusers is entitlement.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: My view is that this entitlement is often mistaken for narcissism.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I'll say that again because I do think that this is a really important takeaway point.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: My view is that entitlement, particularly male entitlement that underpins the behavior of all male abusers.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: My belief is that that male entitlement is often mistaken for a trait of narcissism, and there are differences between the two things.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: There are differences between someone who is narcissistic and someone who perceives that they are entitled to behave the way that they do.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: One of the major differences when we're talking about the trait of narcissism and male entitlement is that someone who exhibits high levels of narcissism and someone who has traits consistent with one or more personality disorders, they tend to behave in this very narcissistic way to everybody.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Now, this is particularly true if they have a personality disorder.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Most personality disordered people have a very limited insight and limited capacity to turn these qualities on and off.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: So if you're wondering whether your ex or your current partner, or literally anyone else in your life, has a personality disorder, the most important question you need to be asking yourself is who has noticed that there is something not quite right with this person's behavior?
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: If the only person who thinks there's something not quite right is you, or former partners, or the kids, or maybe some family members, so intimate people?
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: If you are the only people who have seen something not quite right, then, without further information of your former partner, I would be leaning towards the fact that they are just simply entitled and, if we're talking about a man here, that they have male entitlement and that their male entitlement is specific to partners, former partners, children, people who they think they have a right to possess, to own.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: It's layered in and enmeshed with other misogynistic views.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: If, on the other hand, your partner or former partner has problematic behaviours and a lot of other people have noticed so they have conflicts with co-workers.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: They've had conflicts with the neighbour.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: They've had conflicts and falling out with friends.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: They've lost jobs.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: They've had to become self-employed because of a problematic work track record.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: They've got sketchy employment.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Perhaps they're overly litigious.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Do they threaten to take people to court?
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Have they actually taken people to court over ridiculous things?
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Are they like a dog with a bone when they're having an argument with literally anyone?
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: That is when I would start to wonder about a personality disorder, because personality disordered people don't tend to keep that shitty behavior, that narcissistic, entitled behavior, behind closed doors.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Because a personality disorder, by its very nature, is not something that somebody can control.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Non-disordered abusers, on the other, are very, very, very good at protecting themselves from consequences.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: They don't want to do anything that's going to interfere with their life or that's going to lead to consequences for themselves, that's going to lead to anything unpleasant that's going to risk their job, risk police involvement, that sort of thing.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Someone with a personality disorder does not have that same level of insight or level of self-control, so they tend to behave in a way that other people in the wider community as I said, neighbours, friends, people in the workplace, other people perceive it as being not quite right.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Other people will be shaking their heads, thinking what the fuck is wrong with that guy.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: There's something really not right with him.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: So this is one of the most important questions to ask yourself.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: If you're wondering about whether someone in your world has a personality disorder or not, do other people know that there is something not quite right?
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Have they had fallings out with other people in their world?
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: If it's all kept behind closed doors and literally everyone else thinks this person is Mr Wonderful, I would be really sceptical about whether or not they had a personality disorder.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: And this is where as much as personality disordered people are absolutely not fun to be in relationships with, to be separating from, to have to co-parent with.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: They are very much their own worst enemies.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Non-disordered abusers are often far better at presenting well.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: They're so skilled at keeping things behind closed doors and interacting appropriately with other people, not so for personality disordered abusers.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Personality disordered abusers often self-sabotage on incredible levels to the point where if the case is in court, everyone, even their own lawyer, is just shaking their heads thinking what on earth is going on with this guy.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: They are not good at protecting themselves from consequences.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: They often act in ways that bring consequences right to their doorstep.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: So again, as much as these people are not fun to deal with, they are very much their own worst enemies.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: And for my clients who are separating, divorcing and co-parenting from someone who I suspect has at least one personality disorder, the great thing is that often those particular clients, all they need to do is to be documenting the stuff that their ex is doing, because their ex is just fucking up a lot.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: It really does make our job a lot easier.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Something else relevant to this conversation is that PTSD and CPTSD so PTSD referring to post-traumatic stress disorder and CPTSD refers to complex post-traumatic stress disorder.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Those disorders can also have traits consistent with narcissistic personality disorder or high levels of narcissism.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, so trauma and the way in which that can manifest in someone can make that person seem very narcissistic.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: When someone has PTSD or see PTSD, there can be a tendency to be hyper-focused on what other people think of us.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: There can be a tendency to think that other people just simply don't understand.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: The problem is that when someone is still processing their trauma, there is a tendency to think that other people don't get it.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: If they are not in a space, if the victim survivor is not in a space where they are open to solutions, there can be a tendency to think people just don't get it, people just don't understand.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: It's not as easy as what people think.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: And that ties in with the next component of PTSD and complex PTSD, which can be that people that suffer from those disorders.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Some of these people have what we could refer to as a victim identity.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: So in comparison with narcissism, narcissists or people with narcissistic personality disorder often it's a perceived victimization, so they weren't actually really the victim, but they're hypersensitive to criticism and so they just perceive themselves to be the victim, whereas someone with PTSD or complex PTSD there really was victimization.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: So they have post-traumatic stress disorder and symptoms consistent with that, because they genuinely were traumatized.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: They genuinely were the victim.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: The problem is when that becomes our identity and when we show up in the world in a way that continues to be us as the victim.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: When the victim identity becomes who we are, when we take that on as who we are, when that just simply becomes our story.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Now the solution to that is in developing our genuine identity, our true self, so genuinely getting to recognize, understand, explore who we are underneath the trauma.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: And this is where working on our trauma is just so incredibly important.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: With complex PTSD and PTSD, there can be a failure to see the way that we sometimes contribute to our own problems and that's also a narcissistic tendency.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: So just because someone might have been the victim in a particular circumstance and experienced trauma in a particular circumstance, there can then be a tendency in other situations to believe that we are the innocent victim and that other people are the problem and there can be a lack of ability or capacity to believe that we actually have the ability to create our solutions by ourselves.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: That it's not about other people changing to make our lives better.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: It's about us changing us, doing the work to make our own lives better and struggling with that is really common with people who have PTSD and complex PTSD, and it's also very common in people with high levels of narcissism.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: So again, you know this is another overlap.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: There's also a tendency to focus on how we feel.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: So I've touched on the fact that there can be a tendency to focus on what other people think of us, on how we're perceived, which is a narcissistic trait.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Think of us on how we're perceived, which is a narcissistic trait.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: But there can also be a tendency to focus on how we feel all the time, to the point that focusing on how we feel just becomes how we are in most situations and it can get to a point where people who have lived with PTSD and complex PTSD for a long period of time it can get to a point where they don't even realize that that's how they're showing up in situations a lot of the time.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: It becomes the dominant way of life and that can then mean that there's no sensitivity to what's going on for other people, no tuning in to what's going on with other people.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So for people who have been traumatized by a former partner, that can be what dominates any and all conversation that they have with other people, that they have with friends, family members, those sorts of things.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: They can be so focused on themselves, what they've experienced, what they felt, that they don't stop to consider that other people also have hard things that they're navigating.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: They might have significant health issues, they might have lost somebody close to them, they might have also navigated an abusive or controlling relationship.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: But when you've got PTSD or complex PTSD, oftentimes your world narrows to you and you alone and how this situation impacts you.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: And again, this is a very narcissistic trait.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: So oftentimes, when we're accusing former partners of being narcissistic or narcissists, we need to be thinking about well, is this just male entitlement?
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Is this past trauma?
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Do they have PTSD, complex PTSD?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: And we also need to be looking at ourselves.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: What characteristics do we have in our personalities that are also narcissistic?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Because none of us are perfect either.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: None of my clients are perfect people.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not a perfect person.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: This is not to take away from what any of us have experienced, but it's about bringing a more balanced view, because if you approach your situation thinking that you are 100% in the right and your ex is 100% in the wrong and that they are evil.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: They are horrible, they are personality disordered and you are just solely the victim.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: That doesn't usually go well for people, it doesn't usually help you move through this experience positively and it can also harm your case if things progress to court.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: And none of this, it's important to say, is an excuse.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: If your former partner is suffering from PTSD or complex PTSD and they behave in controlling ways and they are focused on themselves and how they feel and how they're the victim, even if that's because of post-traumatic stress, their behavior is not okay.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Their behavior has obviously harmed you, potentially also your children if you share children with this person.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So it's not about making excuses for the behavior, but rather it's about looking underneath what is really going on with the behaviour and, as I said, really looking quite critically.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: As is this actually a personality disorder?
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Because, again, I think it's become very fashionable to label abusers as quote unquote narcissists or as having narcissistic personality disorder, and the reality is that the vast majority of abusers don't narcissistic personality disorder, and the reality is that the vast majority of abusers don't have a personality disorder.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: It's in the vicinity of somewhere between 10 to 15% of the adult population has traits consistent with a personality disorder.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: So we're talking 85 to 90% of the population that does not have a personality disorder.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: So chances are, if you're listening to this, just from a numbers perspective, the likelihood is that your ex does not have a personality disorder.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: They might, but there's a really good chance that they don't.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And going back to what I was talking about previously, one of the ways to work out whether or not they do, just as a really quick mental checklist again, none of this is a diagnosis, but a really quick way to assess whether a personality disorder is on the cards is whether or not other people out of your inner circle have seen problematic behavior from your ex.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Now, some people are so attached to the idea that their former partner has a personality disorder that I know that the next thing out of their mouth will be that oh yeah, but maybe it's covert narcissism.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Now, this is what I think we have to be careful of.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: We have to be really, really careful about wanting our ex to have a personality disorder.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: And I get it, no one wants to think that their partner or former partner has been deliberately controlling and abusive.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: It's far better in many ways to think that the reason they're behaving the way that they do is because they've got a personality disorder and it's out of their control.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: It makes the whole better in many ways to think that the reason they're behaving the way that they do is because they've got a personality disorder and it's out of their control.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: It makes the whole situation a lot more palatable and also I just think it's kind of a little bit more sexy.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, divorcing a narcissist these are buzzwords but I think ultimately it's not really that helpful for you.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: It's not really that helpful to go down this path, and people make a really big mistake in thinking that there are specific strategies to employ when you're dealing with someone who's a personality disorder.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Please, if anyone tries to sell you anything on the basis of it making your life so much easier in terms of managing, controlling, tricking, manipulating a personality disordered person, please run.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Please run a mile.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Personality disordered people are unique.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Personality disorders also exist on a bit of a spectrum.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: One narcissist is not the same as another narcissist and the specifics of your situation and your case matter, and I've had people come to me after putting in place things that other people have advised, and one thing that immediately springs to mind is grey rock communication.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I've had clients come to me after they've had things like grey rock communication in place and they've come to me because they have harmed their case by putting in place things that were sold to them from someone who has a focus on personality disorders and who has a focus on labeling abusers as narcissists.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Please don't take generic things like grey rock communication and apply them to your case, particularly if we're talking about co-parenting communication.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: That is a really, really risky approach.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Part of my role is helping clients to work out not only what they're dealing with in terms of their ex, but in terms of their specific case, how their former partner's behavior intersects with what they're experiencing in terms of the co-parenting, what the kids are experiencing when they're in the care of the other parent.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: There's so many nuances to this.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: It is not a one-size-fits-all thing.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: So please be really mindful of that, because one of the reasons that I'm doing this episode is because I have had a number of clients come to me after.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: They have really not stuffed up their case completely, but we've had to do a bit of work to secure their position, to give them a stronger footing and a stronger foundation, especially when we're talking about court proceedings for parenting matters.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: It's worth noting here, just because I've brought up court proceedings for parenting matters, it's worth noting that the court doesn't give a fuck whether you think your ex has got a personality disorder.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: One reason for that is that most people with personality disorders are never diagnosed because they don't take themselves off for regular sessions with a clinical psych or a psychiatrist.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: They don't actually think they have a problem.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: So unless they end up in prison and have to have a psych evaluation as part of that, a formal diagnosis is highly unlikely.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: And it's not illegal to have a personality disorder and be a parent.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: It's not illegal to have a mental illness and be a parent.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: So you thinking that your ex has a personality disorder is really not helpful in terms of creating a strategy for court.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: If you're in court for parenting matters and a lot of damage can be done with you mentioning the word narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder whilst you're navigating the court process For those clients that I'm working with, whose former partners I do think likely have a personality disorder the only person that those particular clients usually speak to openly about that fact is me maybe a close friend, maybe a close family member.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I help them with the strategy specific to their situation.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: So not generic, not this is how you trick a narcissist, but rather specific strategies for their specific former partner, their specific situation, and that's how it should be.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: So, if you think that your former partner has a personality disorder, please exercise really good judgment in finding a professional person to assist you.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Please be very wary about working with anyone who assumes that any and all abusers are quote unquote narcissists and have narcissistic personality disorder, remembering that all male abusers' behavior is underpinned by male entitlement, so their perceived entitlement to act in a particular way, their perceived entitlement to treat you as a servant, their perceived entitlement to own the children, to possess the children those things are common in all male abusers, most of whom do not have a personality disorder.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Whether or not your partner or former partner has a personality disorder or they are just a garden variety abuser, it's really important for you to understand that you cannot change them and you need to be very, very skeptical of any promises on their behalf to change, as this is a very common manipulation tactic and it's how many of us get drawn back into relationships, how we become addicted to the hopium, hoping that things are going to change because they're promising us that they're going to change and they don't, and they have no intention of changing.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: It's just simply to get us to stay.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: It's just simply to let themselves off the hook.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Instead of focusing on the words that are coming out of this person's mouth, you need to focus on their behavior.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Are their actions matching up with the words?
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: If they're saying that they're going to change, are they taking themselves off to the doctor to get a referral to a mental health professional, a clinical psychologist, a psychiatrist, anything of that kind?
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Are they taking active steps to go to therapy?
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Are they signing themselves up to a 20-week men's behavior change program?
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Are they signing themselves up to alcohol and drug counseling?
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: And once doing those things, are they actually consistently participating in whatever it is that's necessary for them?
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: If the doing those things, are they actually consistently participating in whatever it is that's necessary for them?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: If the answer's no, they have no genuine intention of changing.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: So please keep that in mind.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And this is whether they have a personality disorder or not.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: There's no known treatment that is agreed upon by any professional person for a personality disorder, and non-disordered abusers also rarely change.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Genuine change requires acknowledgement from the abusive person that there's a problem, and a dedicated effort, often over a number of years, working with an experienced abuser intervention professional.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And it's important to note that abuser intervention programs and men's behavior change programs are not therapy.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: They're actually designed to confront and hold the man accountable for his attachment to his sense of entitlement and his choice to repeatedly behave in a way that is controlling and abusive.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: So back to personality disorders.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: A personality disorder is characterized by a long-term unhealthy, dysfunctional and disruptive patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving that causes problems over time.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: A personality disorder is the result of an interaction between someone's genetics and their environment.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Some people are born with a genetic predisposition for the traits that are associated with a personality disorder, and this predisposition is then either enhanced or suppressed by conditions in their environment, particularly during childhood.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: It's understood by mental health professionals and supported by research that many adults, if not all adults, with personality disorders experience trauma in childhood linked with abuse, abandonment or neglect.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: As mentioned earlier in this episode.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Abusers with a personality disorder tend to hurt themselves with their behaviour as well as other people, and they also leave a trail of destruction, a trail of people in their past who dislike them or who think that they're nuts.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: They also struggle to be consistently strategic.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Non-personality disordered abusers, on the other hand, tend to be far better at hiding their true nature from everyone else and at maintaining a much better facade and a consistent strategy.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: When you look at the life history of a high conflict person or someone who you suspect has a personality disorder, you'll likely see distinct patterns of disruption, dysfunction and instability over time, and I'm talking from as far back as their teenage years.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: If someone has a personality disorder, this does not just manifest in adulthood.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Things can get worse in adulthood.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: But for someone to be diagnosed with a personality disorder, these traits needed to have been present from teenage years, from adolescence.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: So these patterns of disruption, dysfunction and instability over time can appear, with a difficulty to maintain secure employment, a history of criminal behaviour or socially unacceptable behaviour.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: It's important to note here that this may not have necessarily led to formal legal consequences, and if they tell you of any brushes with the law, they'll likely minimise their involvement, deny wrongdoing, claim to have been the victim, falsely accused or have some kind of believable justification for their behaviour.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Personality disordered people can be skilled pathological liars, and if you're someone who tends to give people the benefit of the doubt tends to see the good in people.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: You might have bought into the liars and given your partner or former partner the benefit of the doubt.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Personality disordered people commonly have a dysfunctional or non-existent relationship with their family of origin.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: They might have also shared stories with you about abuse or neglect during childhood.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: But it is also common for personality disordered people to talk about their childhood as if they're wearing rose-colored glasses, as if it was fantastic.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: If someone's talking about their childhood in a way that just makes it seem far too good to be true and is not balanced, I think you need to question it, because I have not met any adult who has not experienced some form of childhood trauma, not just disordered adults.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about literally any adult, and that's not to say that all of our parents were horrible.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: That's just life.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: That's just reality.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Personality disordered people don't tend to have long-term platonic friendships.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: They might regularly have a bit of a social turnover.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: They might adopt your friends or family members.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Part of this can be because they might be perceived positively by other people initially, because they can be charming, charismatic, generous etc.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: For short doses in a small window of time, and this can lead to good first impressions.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: But over time, they're increasingly perceived by other people to be irritating, annoying, bad-mannered and disruptive.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: People with a personality disorder may have a history of depression or bipolar disorder.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Researchers demonstrated a correlation between depression and personality disorders.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: In one study of patients diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, researchers found that around 96% of those people also met the criteria for a mood disorder.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: They might have a history of addiction.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: This can include the obvious things such as illegal or prescription drugs or alcohol, but can also include unhealthy and destructive relationships with things such as food, pornography, relationships, sex shopping, gambling, gaming, impulsive spending, etc.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: They might have an increased risk of developing health conditions such as obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease, and this is also according to research.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: This suggests that personality traits plays an important role in relation to various aspects of physical health.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: One suggested reason for this is that some personality traits can affect whether an individual will implement or stick to prescribed treatments, medications and lifestyle changes after a medical problem has been identified or diagnosed.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: High conflict people and people with traits consistent with one or more personality disorders can be more likely to smoke, consume large quantities of alcohol or high sugar foods, even when told by medical professionals that their health is in jeopardy.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: People with personality disorders and traits consistent with one or more personality disorders commonly have a history of dysfunctional intimate relationships.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: They can be very difficult to be with long term and over time, will demonstrate abusive and dysfunctional behaviors, including emotional and verbal abuse and controlling behaviors.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Some personality disordered people and those with high conflict personality traits will also choose to resort to physical violence, although this might not occur in a relationship for a long period of time.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Interestingly, people with narcissistic personality disorder tend to be much less physically violent than those with antisocial personality disorder.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: These people can be charming, charismatic, loving and generous for a period of time, but the high conflict aspects of their personality will emerge at some point.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Sometimes there's an identifiable trigger point, sometimes not.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Trigger points that lead to the emergence of particular traits can include moving in together, marriage, pregnancy, the birth of the first child or of subsequent children and any other significant change that could be a source of major stress.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Times of change are times of increased risk.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Relationship breakdown and separation is potentially a very dangerous time, and people with high conflict personality traits have been known to become physically violent, even if they have never been physically violent in the past.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: The first time someone becomes physically violent can be fatal, and where this trait is concerned, I would also put your average garden variety non-disordered abuser into this category as well.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Controlling men, abusive men, even if they don't have a personality disorder, can resort to physical violence if their other strategies for maintaining power and control are no longer working on you.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: If it becomes clear that they've lost control because you're actually taking the steps to separate and move out, for example, this is when things can escalate to physical violence.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: It's common for partners and former partners of high conflict people or personality disordered people to say things like things were great, but then he changed.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: The truth is he didn't really change.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: He just eventually revealed aspects of his personality that had previously been hidden, or the presentation of particular traits towards you were triggered by a significant event or a change in the circumstances.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: If you're in a relationship with someone who seems to have a string of broken relationships in their past one or more divorces this can be a red flag to look into further.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: The red flag becomes a flashing neon beacon if their ex-partners are apparently the sole target of blame for why the relationship didn't work out or for why they don't have contact with or a great relationship with any children of past relationships.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Having no relationship with children from a former partnership is a flashing neon beacon.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: All of past relationships.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Having no relationship with children from a former partnership is a flashing neon beacon all of its own For anyone who has learned what to look for in high conflict people.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Usually this is learned the hard way.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Hearing that someone's former partner is apparently the sole cause of everything that went wrong in the relationship is a sign to run in the opposite direction fast.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: The reality about abusive men is that they do not take responsibility for their abuse, and this is true whether those men have a personality disorder or not.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: If you are speaking with a man and he blames a relationship breakdown on his former partner and claims that none of it is his fault or that he was just simply too forgiving or too gullible, or frames himself as the victim in any way, shape or form, please be skeptical.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: If he claims that his former partner has turned the children against him again, please be very, very skeptical.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: The reality about former partners, who they are as people and parents and what they were subjected to, is likely very different to what you have been told by a high conflict abusive controlling person If you believe that they have a high conflict personality and perhaps a personality disorder.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: You need to assume that much of the negative things you've heard about their former partners are complete lies or highly exaggerated.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Really, you need to assume that a lot of what they have told you is potentially all or in part, complete fabrication.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Controlling and abusive men are wonderful lies.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: There are a wide range of personality traits and behavior patterns that indicate that someone has a high conflict personality and perhaps a personality disorder.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Underpinning the high conflict personality traits and the abusive behavior patterns that accompany them is a problematic worldview and problematic ways of thinking.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Some of these are called cognitive distortions.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Cognitive distortions are patterns and systems of thinking that lead to inaccurate and irrational thoughts and beliefs, and these are reinforced over a period of time.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: They tend to play a part in a range of mental health issues, including anxiety, depression, high conflict personalities and personality disorders.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Understanding cognitive distortions can give us some insight into the irrational and socially inappropriate behavior patterns of high conflict people.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Join me in next week's episode as I unpack the main traits common to most personality disordered and high conflict people.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.