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Life in China vs Western Myths · UK Column Radio

0:02
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Silk and Steel
0:05
Podcast. I am your host, Carl Zar.
0:08
Today we have a very special guest from Beijing.
0:13
Jason, I have known you for a long time, Jason Smith For the
0:18
people who don't know you, for the people I don't know why they
0:22
would know you, but for for people who might not know you.
0:25
Jason, could you do a very brief intro of who you are and what
0:29
you do? Well, my name is Jason Smith.
0:33
I am a radio show host, which I think is special because I think
0:36
I'm the only actual American U.S. citizen radio show host in
0:41
China. So if you turn on the radio in
0:43
some cities, you're going to hear my voice, which I think is
0:45
special. I, I, my podcast is called The
0:48
Bridge to China. You can find us on all
0:51
podcasting platforms. I recently wrote this book.
0:54
And so I'm kind of studying like what China is doing with other
0:57
developing countries around the world.
0:58
And now I'm working on another book, which is studying poverty
1:02
alleviation in China. I'm very interested.
1:04
I go to like small villages that used to be impoverished and I
1:08
study how they've become more prosperous.
1:11
Well, that what that road has been like and how they did it.
1:14
And I want to I want to do that for other developing countries,
1:17
but also because I think some of those techniques can actually be
1:19
replicated back home in the States.
1:21
And I think that would be cool. Yeah, I can.
1:25
You just read out the title of the book because it's it's
1:29
backwards when you hold it up the the title, it's kind of hard
1:31
to read because it's backwards. But what does the title say?
1:36
A world beyond poverty, China's road map to a shared future.
1:39
This is I wouldn't recommend this for people who don't like
1:43
difficult books because this is like a a compendium.
1:45
It's like an encyclopedia of projects from around the world.
1:49
It's not like a book about, oh, my experience of no, it's just
1:53
one project after another. What did China build?
1:56
How much did it cost? Was it a grant?
1:59
Was it a loan? What were the terms, you know,
2:02
what is China actually doing in Laos or what is China actually
2:06
doing in Egypt? You know, what is it did it
2:08
actually do? Because a lot of people have
2:10
weird ideas that China is debt trapping countries and it's it's
2:15
just not true. So I wanted to produce a book
2:17
that explicitly shows what China is actually up to in a lot of
2:22
these developing countries. What's it, what is it building,
2:24
and what are those countries getting and what are they giving
2:27
in return? Well, the reason I invited to my
2:32
show, Jason, is to provide easy, accessible information to my
2:37
audience. So what I so you know, because I
2:40
like to do it in the podcast for much like you you, but I I'm
2:45
kind of interested. How does American boy like you
2:49
ended up in China in the first place?
2:52
Well, I, I got a master's degree in California and it was in
2:57
modern world history, but like most Americans, I've never
3:01
actually seen the world outside of North America, right.
3:04
So I was like, OK, well, I need to go see the world if I'm going
3:07
to pretend that I understand what it's like.
3:10
So I moved to South Korea and, you know, that wasn't for me.
3:13
It was a great, it's a great country, wonderful food,
3:16
wonderful people, but it, I wasn't the right fit for me.
3:18
Then I moved to China and I, my intention at that point was I'm
3:22
gonna move every two or three years to a new country.
3:25
And then I just got soaked. This was 2012 July when I moved
3:30
to China and I, I fell in love with China and then I just
3:35
couldn't leave. And now I now I'm just here.
3:38
You're stuck. You you.
3:41
You met your wife in China. That's right.
3:44
Yeah. We we met in Shandong.
3:46
She's from Shandong and we were immediately a couple and we're
3:52
we got married the next year and now she's asleep in in the
3:56
bedroom. She sleeps during the day.
4:00
I don't know. Well, you, you, you, you, you
4:03
have much compliment on your wife's taste on on the on the
4:07
beautiful background you have. That's right.
4:09
This is her. Yeah.
4:11
Yeah, the traditional Chinese painting of cranes.
4:15
That looks very nice and so OK. So how did you get into the
4:19
radio business? You know, I, that's not my was
4:23
never my intention to be in media, but around 2018-2019, you
4:28
know, we're both from the United States.
4:30
So like, you know, before 2017, China was not really even in the
4:35
media. And when it was, it was like,
4:37
oh, it's polluted and that's or pandas and that's all you heard
4:40
right. And then 2017, 18, the US media
4:44
turned just 180 on China and everything China was bad.
4:48
All of a sudden, I was shocked by this, you know, as an
4:51
American living in China, because a lot of this stuff,
4:54
almost all of the stuff that I saw in the media was completely
4:58
false or highly inaccurate or just used a grain of truth to
5:02
just talk about all these other weird accusations.
5:06
And so I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
5:07
I want to say why that's not true.
5:09
So I started going onto social media and saying, you know,
5:13
making videos in China. Actually I was in Chinese social
5:17
media at 1st and saying, hey, you know, I appreciate you.
5:21
I'm sorry that US is saying this stuff and it got really popular.
5:24
And then CGTN, which is a China Global Television News, a
5:31
network, it's a huge agency here.
5:34
It's the the largest English speaking television channel,
5:38
maybe the only real major English speaking television
5:41
channel, reached out to me and said, would you like to be on
5:43
TV? And I said no.
5:45
But then they were like, oh, we have radio.
5:47
And I was like, Oh yeah, that sounds great because there's CDT
5:50
and radio, formerly CRI. And so actually I went to work
5:53
for CRI as a radio show host doing podcast the the Bridge to
5:57
China. And then I, I at that, just
6:00
before then, I sort of switched my media to the West and gone on
6:04
X and all of these other platforms.
6:07
And so my, my social media personality on X, that's me.
6:12
I couldn't get away with that. If that was an official CGTN
6:14
platform. A lot of people say, oh, you say
6:16
this stuff because you're paid by the CGTN.
6:19
Now the radio show is CGTN, but my comments on social media are
6:26
my comments. So all that crazy stuff, you
6:29
know, actually, I like you. You referred to yourself one
6:31
time six months ago or a year ago as a as a shit poster.
6:36
And I thought I always. Refer to myself as.
6:38
A shit poster. I saw that and I thought, oh, I
6:41
like that. You know, I want to run with
6:43
that because I don't I want to just be able to say anything.
6:46
I don't want to have to be really official and like very
6:49
formal and like stick to the rules.
6:52
I just wanted to just go crazy. And I thought when you, when I
6:55
saw you post that, I thought that's my model for how I'm
6:59
going to be. And I, I, I really have just,
7:02
you know, call out BS online about China.
7:05
And it's easy for me because people will say, well, China's
7:07
like this. I can walk outside in Beijing
7:11
and film and show that it's not like that.
7:13
So it's easy for me to win a lot of these arguments because
7:16
people will say, well, this is what China's like.
7:18
And I can literally just go like 5 minutes down, down stairs and
7:22
start filming and show why that's not true.
7:25
And so that you know, that's. People will and people will say
7:28
if China is great, why don't you go live in?
7:30
China. Yeah, exactly.
7:32
I get that every single day. And you're like, I'm in Beijing.
7:39
Right. Yeah.
7:41
It's so strange. Yeah.
7:45
It was really made straight. Go ahead, go ahead.
7:48
Go. No, no, no.
7:49
Go ahead, Go ahead. What makes it strange is that X
7:52
has this new find where you are location thing.
7:55
And because, you know, we use VPNs in China, Sometimes I'm in
7:58
Finland, sometimes I'm in Macedonia, and it moves around.
8:02
So different times when people click on my X account, they say
8:05
you're in the United States, you're lying about living in
8:07
China or you're in Macedonia, you're lying about it.
8:10
It's it's there is no China option.
8:14
So X does not have the technical capability to tell where people
8:18
actually are. So that's been really
8:21
frustrating. I'm currently based in Bali.
8:24
I have been living here since the pandemic and now some people
8:28
use that as a gotcha. It's like, ah, you are
8:31
Indonesia. Why are you talking about China?
8:33
I'm like, people do travel around, you know, Chinese people
8:38
do get around, they, they travel around the world.
8:41
You know, I've been, I also been living in the United States for
8:44
almost 30 years. And so, but, but people, people
8:49
just assume I'm some sort of Chinese bot.
8:52
So I have to tell people I'm the latest generation Chinese AI.
8:58
That's very realistic. How so?
9:03
How's you know, you know, obviously you have settled in
9:07
your life in Beijing. Has the kind of the downturn in
9:12
the Sino American relationship affect you in, you know, your
9:16
everyday living in China? You know, not really.
9:21
People are still very friendly. When I got here, I was, I was
9:24
very curious as an American, what do Chinese people think of
9:26
America, right. So I asked around and at that
9:29
time, 2012 to 2016, everyone was like, oh, we look up to America.
9:34
You know, we want to, you know, develop like America.
9:37
People were very open, you know, they owe to my American friend
9:41
after Trump's initiated his first trade war 2017.
9:46
Like people we're still like, we like America, but we don't like
9:50
this trade war, you know. So people in China are really
9:53
friendly. I mean, I'm sure that there are
9:55
like outlier people who are really upset about it.
9:58
Maybe they they were exporters and it hurt them or something.
10:01
But the general person on the street is very friendly to
10:03
foreigners of all kinds. Wherever you're from, you're
10:05
from Kazakhstan, great. You're from England, great.
10:08
You're from US, great. You know, like, so it's, you
10:12
know, my daily life is really nice.
10:14
People are really polite and nice to me.
10:16
Nothing's really changed. Actually, I would say if
10:18
anything, what's happened is from the period 10 years ago to
10:22
now, China has become safer. My own thinking about this is
10:27
that it's because there's a lot more prosperity.
10:30
You know, people who used to be impoverished are less less
10:32
likely to be impoverished today. People who made less money
10:35
before make more money today. You know, the infrastructure is
10:39
great. So I think people are just, you
10:42
know, because there's prosperity, because there's a
10:44
lack of poverty like there used to be.
10:47
I go outside and I feel safer than ever.
10:49
You know, when I first moved to China, I was like, OK, you know,
10:51
I still need to keep my guard up a little maybe.
10:54
And I don't want to buy bike stolen.
10:55
I need to lock it up. Like I was in the US.
10:57
It didn't notice a massive difference.
10:58
But today, my gosh, like I could just leave my bike in the middle
11:03
of the the street. People will just leave it there,
11:06
whatever, It doesn't matter. It's, it's so incredibly safe.
11:09
It's incredibly safe feeling at night, walking around anywhere
11:13
in any city, rural, urban, doesn't matter.
11:15
It's just so I would say over the same period of time, I've
11:19
actually just become more comfortable despite the trade
11:21
war. Hopefully, you know, that'll be
11:24
walked back a little bit. There were some agreements made
11:27
recently when President Xi and President Trump met.
11:30
And I'm hoping that the relationship can get back on
11:33
track a little bit, become more normalized.
11:37
Yeah, I mean, that's my hope too.
11:38
I'm I'm a Chinese American. You know, for me, I have always
11:42
hope had hope to see a better relationship between the two
11:45
countries because especially for me that that would be good for
11:49
me and my family. But unfortunately, you know,
11:52
things hasn't hasn't turned out so rosy for the last eight, 7-8
11:57
years. But you know what you mentioned
12:00
about the safety issue, You know, I've seen so many videos
12:04
online of like people leaving cell phone or laptop, a coffee
12:10
like Starbucks in China and then come back and it's still there.
12:14
I actually experienced that myself.
12:16
I was in Shanghai a couple months ago and I left my Xiaomi
12:22
phone charging in a like a Community Center, you know, in a
12:28
residential compound where my friend lived.
12:30
And then I, I, I totally forgot. I, I, we, we wandered off for
12:34
like 2 hours and I'm like, where's my phone?
12:37
And I'm like, oh wait, I left it charging at a Community Center.
12:41
We went back, the phone was still there, but I have to say
12:45
that was not the case back in 1980s when I, I lived in China,
12:51
but back then that that phone will be gone, It'll be long
12:54
gone. So I think I agree with you.
12:56
I think it's part of the, the, the prosperity, the general
13:00
prosperity. Now people are generally don't
13:03
need to do that. And and also they there's,
13:06
there's also, you know, a lot of things also got better.
13:11
General etiquette is getting is developing like in 1980s.
13:16
I can tell you there's no such thing as keowing.
13:20
There's no such thing as lining up.
13:22
I mean, like I like, because I remember one time just back,
13:28
back in, in my days to make a phone call to my dad who was
13:32
studying for PhD in United States.
13:34
Might we didn't have a phone in our in our apartment.
13:38
So we actually have to travel to downtown Fengqing to get to go
13:44
to like a China post office or something that where the heck we
13:47
can, we can do international calls, right, right.
13:49
So, so, so it's a whole day trip.
13:52
On the way back, we have to catch a bus to go back home.
13:55
And I remember it was during rush hour.
13:57
The bus comes and the whole before there was some kind of
14:02
semi line and but when the bus as soon as a bus door open, the
14:06
crowd just like swore the bus and and there's like some young
14:11
guys like 20 something, they will climb through the window
14:14
open when yeah, me and my my mom's like, oh, OK, my God,
14:19
there's no way we could get out that bus.
14:21
Let's just walk. We have to walk.
14:23
Like several. Blocks to the next bus stop to
14:27
catch a a different bus. But that was kind of the
14:30
experience in the 1980s. I was pleasantly surprised when
14:36
I went back to China in 2019, just before the pandemic.
14:39
That's I think when I first noticed about the behavior
14:42
change. I was like, wow, people actually
14:44
stopping at the red light. You know, people actually have
14:47
made the signals there today, you know, rather than treating
14:51
it as like a, you know, a mere suggestion.
14:55
So, so I think people, some people attribute that to the
14:59
prevalence of cameras. May, I mean, maybe plays part of
15:03
it, but I generally appreciate the change.
15:06
You know, I appreciate that things are getting nicer now
15:10
and, and safer and very, very safe.
15:13
You know, people, I don't know what your experience, but from
15:16
my my experience in China is that I don't feel, yes, there
15:21
are a lot of cameras, but I don't feel like a lot of people
15:24
really care about it. They they, they see camera as
15:28
like safety, provide safety. Yeah.
15:31
Because I I me too. Because I remember, yeah,
15:33
because I remember walking out long trails in the Great Wall,
15:37
like really kind of secluded part of Great Wall.
15:40
They have cameras along the trail and, and, and, and for a
15:44
lot of Chinese people, that's, that's safety.
15:46
That's, you know, like they, they know they will be safe even
15:49
there alone walking a trail in the in the wild Great Wall.
15:54
Yeah. So I think that there's that,
15:55
there's that. So there's just a lot of very
15:58
different perceptions because I think what what it is is when
16:02
people talk about China, you know, from the West in
16:05
particular, a lot of times they're not really talking about
16:08
China. They're talking about a
16:11
projection in their mind of like their own worst fears about
16:15
their own society. So, you know, rather than the
16:19
real China that existed out there, you know, I think, I
16:22
think this is sometimes it's kind of frustrating.
16:26
I I understand it must be frustrating for you try to kind
16:29
of, you know, convey what China is really like.
16:33
You know what it's not? It's not just that it's
16:34
frustrating, it's that there is, it seems to be deliberate
16:38
disinformation, whether it's from state actors or from
16:41
individuals who are just full of hate.
16:43
Wherever it's coming from, there's a lot of disinformation
16:46
like the social credit score thing.
16:48
This is actually outside of my home.
16:51
There is a camera. I noticed yesterday.
16:53
It is a bunch of cameras and one of them points straight at the
16:56
road. And one of the things I read
16:59
this morning when I woke up under one of my tweets was, oh,
17:03
if you jaywalk, your social credit score goes down.
17:06
So I'm going to set up my camera on a tripod outside and I'm
17:10
going to walk back and forth across the street numerous times
17:14
like to show that, you know, it doesn't affect me in any kind of
17:18
way because there is something called a social credit score.
17:21
That's what's confusing in China, they have multiple credit
17:24
score systems and one of them is called a social credit score.
17:28
But actually it's for your credit.
17:30
It's like not dissimilar from AUS credit system.
17:34
So if you take a loan and you don't pay it, guess what, you
17:37
have difficulty getting another loan, same as the the US.
17:40
But if you jaywalk or like, I don't know, post something about
17:44
Winnie the Pooh online or whatever the lie is right now,
17:48
nothing happens to you. There's I've even read people
17:50
say like, oh, because this person jaywalked when they went
17:54
to the store, they couldn't buy milk because they have to pay
17:56
with their face. And there's so many like little
17:59
tiny pieces of things that are accurate that it can be
18:02
confusing to someone who doesn't understand.
18:04
For example, if you choose to, you can set up facial payment at
18:08
a lot of stores so you could actually pay for your groceries.
18:11
But that's not what people do. People use their phone and QR
18:14
codes. But like that, the idea that
18:18
something in your behavior is going to prevent you from buying
18:20
food or prevent you from getting into your home is insane.
18:25
It's completely ludicrous. Nothing like that exists.
18:29
I could jaywalk all day long. I could probably spend 12 hours
18:32
jaywalking back and forth. Nothing.
18:34
No credit system is going to notice that.
18:36
It doesn't matter, the police won't even notice, they'll
18:39
probably just think there's someone completely out of their
18:41
mind if they do notice that the guy walking back and forth on
18:44
the little bubble or something. Like actually I don't think
18:47
anyone even watches the cameras, not even AI.
18:50
The people who have. No no.
18:52
This is interesting. I want to point this out because
18:53
I wanted Full disclosure. People do have things like can't
18:58
stay in a five star hotel, can't take high speed rail, can't take
19:01
first class airplanes, can't have a passport to go abroad.
19:04
Those people are called frauds and they have scammed people out
19:08
of millions of RMB. Have have they?
19:11
Maybe they haven't paid 50 employees at their factory or
19:13
something. That also didn't happen by a
19:17
app. It wasn't like AI made that
19:19
decision. They were brought before a
19:20
judge. The judge said, hey, you have,
19:22
you know, you owe 9 million RMB to your employees that you
19:26
haven't paid for three months. Guess what, we're going to, you
19:28
can't leave the country because you may have embezzled that
19:31
money and hid it in the Cayman Islands.
19:33
We don't want you to just go there and live a happy life.
19:35
You have to stay here and these are your limitations until you
19:39
pay that debt back. And that those people, you can
19:42
actually also, because they, I've seen this, they've, oh, I
19:44
found them on an app, all the people with low social social
19:47
credit scores. Yes, there are in fact apps
19:51
where you can find people who have are fraudulent scammers.
19:55
And it's like Megan's Law in California.
19:58
You're from California, right? So in California we have a law
20:01
called Megan's Law. And for these people who are
20:04
pedophiles? They, you can find them on
20:06
Megan's Law in your neighborhood.
20:08
So you can make sure, hey, I don't want my kids playing over
20:10
there, right? So they have an app for that In
20:14
China, there is an app to find people with The Who are
20:17
fraudulent scammers. And it's to make sure that you
20:19
don't go into business with them not knowing Full disclosure,
20:23
this person owes 20 million RMB because they did they, you know,
20:26
they were scamming other people, but that that's it.
20:29
It doesn't affect normal people. Grandma, you know, walking
20:32
across the street in the wrong place or saying something to her
20:36
neighbor about not liking some government policy doesn't affect
20:40
anything at all. And that's one of the things I
20:43
find most frustrating. People find little tiny things
20:46
that are true, like, oh, their facial recognition can be used
20:48
to pay groceries, and they mix it with a pack of lies, and then
20:52
they try to sell it to people. Like that's what China's like
20:54
when it's nothing like that. And that's really frustrating.
20:57
That that's why I tell people seeing is believing just come to
21:00
China and see for yourself. You know, I, I was travelling
21:04
with a South African guy germs, you know, so I, I just took him
21:08
on a bicycle ride. We got those rideshare bikes.
21:11
You know where you stand your with Alipay QR code and then you
21:15
can rent it for like a 1.5 RMB for next hour.
21:19
So we, we were riding around Shanghai and we're waiting at
21:22
the, the, the, the stop. Like you see, you see those two
21:26
guys just drove their scooter without helmet, right?
21:29
And like right did, did a, did a total illegal, illegal turn on
21:34
the red. You see that, you know, like,
21:37
you know, you use the West. They will think they'll be ZAB
21:40
or something like because this is not on camera and social
21:44
credit. But no, let that that still
21:46
happens. You know, unfortunately there's
21:49
still rule Breakers. You know, very.
21:51
Late rule Breakers. And, you know, it's not, yeah,
21:55
that that social credit dystopia stuff, you know, it's, yeah.
22:00
So there's a lot of projection, I guess.
22:02
I think there are a lot of surveillances in the West.
22:06
So This is why I tried to tell people, look, yeah, they're
22:10
cameras in China. Yes, they're equally among.
22:13
There's just as many cameras in City of London, right.
22:17
And guess what? At least in China, you're safe.
22:22
You have all the cameras, you're still not safe.
22:26
But yeah, that's the difference. You know, that's a really good
22:29
point. A lot of people say, oh, the
22:31
reason people don't when I I post, oh, China is one of the
22:34
safest places in the world. I put statistics up.
22:36
People say, oh, that's just because there's cameras
22:38
everywhere. And actually your response that,
22:40
hey, London's also filled with an insane amount of cameras, but
22:44
there are stabbings and, you know, people are robbed in broad
22:47
daylight or in the in the subway systems.
22:49
It's clearly not just because of the cameras.
22:52
There's something else going on. I think it is, you know, no
22:55
offense to the UK or the United States, They are very developed
22:58
countries, but in a in a lot of ways, it's becoming harder for
23:01
their middle class in these developed countries.
23:04
In the United States, people are struggling, people are living
23:06
paycheck to paycheck and you know, rent is out, you know,
23:09
inflation, all these things. So it actually creates
23:12
criminality. That's where criminals come
23:14
from. Criminals come from need, and in
23:16
China, there is still need. You know, there's still some
23:19
degree of poverty in some rural areas that it needs to be
23:22
corrected and is being corrected.
23:24
But the difference is they're better off today than they were
23:27
five years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
23:30
And so there's a feeling of upward mobility here in China.
23:35
That is a very good point because I have experienced that
23:38
myself. You know, I lived in China in
23:41
1980s, as I often tell people, you know, I, I live in a times
23:45
when, you know, we need ration papers to buy everything, right?
23:49
Cooking oil to like, to like rise to close.
23:54
And, and, and I saw that, you know, gradually that was being
23:57
phased out and there were plenty of goods in the market.
24:01
You can, yes, you can. You can buy as long as you have
24:04
money, you know, whereas you know, back in the days that you
24:08
have to go line up at the designated government stores
24:12
with ration papers. You know, there, there used to
24:15
be such a thing called friendship stores where they
24:18
will sell imported goods, foreign goods.
24:21
And you cannot even use, you cannot even buy with R&B the
24:25
Chinese money. You have to have like what they
24:28
call the foreign exchange certificate.
24:31
And you want to get the foreign exchange certificate.
24:34
If you take like a hard currency, like foreign currency,
24:37
go to the People's Bank of China to trade it in for R&B and then
24:41
they give you the the French, the foreign currency exchange
24:46
certificate. And with that then you will be
24:50
able to purchase imported foreign goods.
24:53
There's one like 1980s but but, but you know that soon changed
24:57
goes to the come 1990s two thousand and everything is made
25:01
in China anyway. So, you know, you don't need,
25:03
you don't need to buy imported goods anymore unless, you know,
25:06
you really want to buy like that, that Ferrari or so or
25:10
Porsche or something. Yeah.
25:12
You know, you mentioned another thing that really makes life
25:14
convenient here and a lot of people get frustrated, you know,
25:17
economists in the West like, oh, China's inflation is, you know,
25:21
only like .8 if you take out electricity and food.
25:24
So it's it's very slow. That's great.
25:28
You know, my wife, I love her to death, but she has bought and
25:31
I'm not exaggerating, something like 10 purses in the last month
25:35
because she just, I suddenly just went, I had won all these
25:38
purses and she's ordering purses and sending them back, but
25:40
keeping some of them. And the thing about it is
25:43
everything's made in China. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that
25:48
purse looks really expensive. How much is it?
25:50
60 RMB, which is like less than 10 bucks.
25:53
And it's like something that would cost hundreds in the
25:55
United States, you know, because of tariffs and because of
25:57
profiteers and middle men and stores and whatever.
26:00
So like we get amazing deals living in China.
26:04
So, you know, if you want to buy a laptop or whatever, you can
26:06
get everything like way less expensive than in the West.
26:10
It's one of the perks of living in China.
26:12
It's just like so they make so much stuff.
26:15
Yeah, everything, everything price at least double S when
26:19
they leave China. Like I, I know because I just
26:21
bought a Chinese EV here in Indonesia and I know for the
26:25
same brand, same spec of car in China, that car cost like like
26:32
1/2 of what I've just paid, You know, just just because, you
26:35
know, tariffs and, and like, and the company could make a profit
26:40
because there's less competition for other Chinese EV makers.
26:44
There's not that many brands here yet, whereas China they
26:47
have insane amount of competition.
26:50
So that, that competition keeps the price stop.
26:53
And so, you know, it's, it's great time to be a Chinese
26:55
consumer today. This is another thing I, I wish
26:59
people understand is that China, despite its very developed
27:03
infrastructure, in many ways even surpassing the developed W,
27:07
the price is still very affordable.
27:10
Like, like, like the hotel, especially hotels, like some
27:14
very nice hotels that would cost like go for like 4-5 hundred
27:19
dollars in, in, in, in, in New York or Los Angeles in here.
27:25
You can't, you know, it's like you, you go for like 10, that
27:30
price, maybe like 40 from 40 to $80.
27:33
You can have. I mean, it's amazing.
27:36
People. People should just talk to
27:37
China. Yeah, go.
27:38
Ahead Oh yeah, I Oh yeah. I, I mean, I don't, I, I'd like
27:41
the I, I want people to come visit for a week or two and
27:43
that's going to change a lot of minds.
27:45
And, you know, people who do are going to go back home with a
27:48
completely different perspective.
27:50
But I think living here is also really would be helpful in some
27:54
cases. You, you mentioned cars.
27:56
I was also thinking about used internal combustion engines.
27:59
Used ICE cars are so cheap. So like if you want to buy like
28:04
a A5 year old Porsche in China, it costs like 10% of a new
28:09
Porsche. So you go on these apps and
28:12
what's what's happening is they're selling as many as they
28:15
can in China. And then actually they're taking
28:17
all these used cars and shipping them to other countries to sell
28:21
used cars in those countries because you can't sell them for
28:23
any real value in China anymore because everyone's switching to
28:28
EVs. So you can go online and find
28:30
like a Mercedes from five years ago and get it for 10% of the
28:33
cost of a brand new Mercedes. And so, like, all these people
28:37
who couldn't afford cars before, like not only are they buying
28:40
EVs, which are, you know, like more than half of all of the
28:44
cars in China now, but like, they're also buying used ICE
28:48
cars. And like, oh, I have a Mercedes
28:50
now, but they're like, you know, lower middle class.
28:54
Nice. Yeah.
28:57
That's really nice. I Yeah.
28:59
I wish people really understood that.
29:01
But you, you, you don't really get to experience it until you
29:08
see it. You know, seeing is still
29:09
believing. This is why I encourage anybody
29:12
just travel to China. See for yourself.
29:15
Even the China haters at least understand what you're hating.
29:18
You know, like, like right now you're just hating A abstract.
29:22
A abstract concept that only exists in your mind.
29:26
Yeah. So you know what's really funny?
29:29
The haters. I'm sorry, I drew real quick.
29:32
The haters, actually, they film things that are not what they
29:36
seem and then they show it as something else.
29:38
There's a very famous video that's going around right now
29:42
that a lot of the people who dislike China are posting,
29:44
trying to prove that there are homeless people in China.
29:47
I'm sure that there are some homeless people in China, but
29:49
it's very rare. But they show these videos of
29:51
like people sleeping in front of the train station, right?
29:54
You know, in the 30 minutes or an hour before it opens in the
29:57
morning. And they're like proof that
29:59
China has homeless people. And it's like most people don't
30:02
even look homeless. They're just like on a mat, like
30:04
kind of reading their phone like it, you know, they were right in
30:07
front of a train station. Those people are clearly just
30:10
waiting to get into the train station Or other examples.
30:13
I'm sure you can find video of real homeless people in China.
30:17
But you know, I live in Beijing. As far as I know, when I visit,
30:22
I travel around a lot. There's one guy I know of this
30:25
for sure homeless one guy. So like, maybe there's somewhere
30:32
else or something, but you know, I ride a bike, so I see
30:35
everything, you know, I go through all kinds of different
30:37
neighborhoods. There's one guy who's clearly
30:39
has some kind of issue. He's completely unkempt and he
30:44
plays the arhu with a can in front of him with a QR code on
30:46
it. He's the only guy I know in all
30:49
of Beijing that is for sure homeless.
30:51
So like, yes, maybe homelessness does exist, but the it's such an
30:56
outlier. That's like .000 whatever
30:58
statistical phenomenon that these people are.
31:01
You know, you go to San Francisco and you know, it's
31:05
like homeless person, homeless person, homeless person,
31:06
homeless person. It's not the same at all.
31:08
So people who are clearly just, you know, I do, I want people
31:11
who dislike China to come to China because I think it'll
31:14
change a lot of minds. But for some people, they're
31:16
just going to keep making up lies no matter what.
31:20
Sure. Yeah.
31:22
I think a lot of these lies are basically, you know, Copian,
31:27
Copian and opium. Because as US is experiencing
31:31
its own very serious structural problems, you know, as some
31:37
people say, US is going to decline and as China rise, there
31:42
will be a lot of people who are trying to seek comfort in
31:47
trying, trying to know all China is just as bad.
31:50
So like, like, like US may be bad, may be getting worse, but
31:55
China is even worse, right that that.
31:57
It's. I think it's that kind of
31:59
mentality that kind of fuels all these production of Copian that
32:03
we see on social media. And and I think it's gonna get
32:07
worse, you know, when US experiencing more problems,
32:11
unfortunately. And yeah, yeah.
32:14
The only, only I think the only way is for people to actually be
32:19
in China to see what it is for themselves and then to decide to
32:23
for themselves. This is, you know, what is
32:25
really going on here. And it's and you know, it's
32:30
slightly not not for Americans yet, but it's a lot easier for
32:34
Europeans nowadays. You know many of these country
32:37
already have 30 days visa free to visit to China.
32:42
I think most European countries now now do.
32:46
But unfortunately Americans still have to have to go go to
32:51
the Chinese consulate to get a visa.
32:54
But but I got my 10 year multi entry visa that's still valid
32:59
until like 2029 so I'm good. Wow, Yeah, that's nice.
33:04
Yeah, I I also want to point out that I think that they I think
33:10
the reason that U.S. citizens haven't been given the visa free
33:13
thing is because I mean, the reality you're a geopolitical
33:17
analyst is that the United States meddles in the internal
33:20
affairs of other countries. If China just gave blank checks
33:23
for people to come to China for 30 days and from the United
33:26
States, I think the concern is that American that the United
33:29
States or the state government and whatever would use that as
33:32
an opportunity to metal in China.
33:35
So I think the United States sort of does did it to itself
33:38
made it difficult for Americans to come to China.
33:41
But I mean, it's actually also easier than ever before.
33:44
Like it used to be you have to go to the the the consulate to
33:47
apply and then you have to go to back to the consulate to get the
33:50
visa. And you also had used to have to
33:52
book your hotels in advance and book your plane ticket in
33:54
advance. Now you don't have to do any of
33:56
that. Now you can apply online.
33:58
You don't need a travel itinerary, you don't need a
34:00
plan. You don't need any kind of weird
34:02
health check or anything. You just apply online.
34:04
If you get approved, you go to the embassy one time to get your
34:06
visa. So it's still easier for
34:09
Americans, but it's not just, like as easy for the other, you
34:12
know, dozens of countries that can just come to China whenever
34:15
they want. Yeah, yeah, but I, I, I, I just
34:19
recommend the people who do have the visa free privilege, you
34:23
know, take advantage of it. Why not, you know, just yeah to
34:26
visit. Totally.
34:28
And and then China is, is such a huge country.
34:31
It actually has a lot to offer in terms of sightseeing for for
34:36
traveler. Yeah, we're not sponsored by the
34:40
Chinese tourism board, by the way.
34:45
Yeah. But we're we're just speaking
34:47
from experience because I actually I'm go.
34:52
Ahead. Go ahead.
34:52
You go ahead. No, no, no.
34:55
I keep on interrupting you. You're my no.
34:57
No, no, OK, all right, fine. I, I was going to add to your
35:00
point about like there's a lot to see.
35:02
So you like city is great. Go to Shenzhen, right?
35:04
You want to see the robots, you want to see flying cars and all
35:06
that. Go to Shenzhen.
35:08
If you want to see like the desert, you can got the, you can
35:10
go to the Gobi Desert or the Taklamakan Desert, the sea of
35:13
death, you know, if that's your thing, if you want it rain
35:15
forest, you can go to Sichuan, which also has pandas, you know,
35:19
and it also the cities that light up like Christmas trees,
35:21
right? They're everywhere.
35:22
So whichever city you're going to, you're probably going to run
35:25
into that Qingdao, Wuhan, Changsha, Shenzhen, Shanghai,
35:29
even parts of downtown Beijing are like that now.
35:31
So you're going to find that wherever you go, you or you want
35:34
to go and you want to see traditional like Chinese
35:36
culture, You can go to like Xi'an or you can go to Dali and
35:39
Yunnan, or you actually want to go to Shangri-La.
35:42
Guess what, it exists. I actually been doing some
35:45
research on it. There's a city called Shangri-La
35:47
in you none. And I was like, oh, is this the
35:50
real Shangri-La? So I looked at the book that's
35:52
written like 1937 and the there's a couple movies and
35:57
they're actually talking about a place that in the local Tibetan
36:00
dialect. That's the name it's called like
36:03
the the Valley of the Moon and Sun.
36:06
And that's actually Shangri-La. That's the translation.
36:08
And so when they changed the name from from the Mandarin name
36:12
to Shangri-La, it was to reflect, yes, that there is this
36:15
Western obsession with this place called Shangri-La, but it
36:17
was actually also the moniker of the city that in the Tibetan
36:22
local dialect for the city. So it is actually Shangri-La.
36:25
So if you want to go to Shangri-La, it's here.
36:28
So like, I mean, there's so many different cool things to see.
36:30
There's amazing little villages you can stay in.
36:33
Like what is it called? Huangling village in Xiangxi.
36:37
It is paradiseic. You will not want to leave.
36:40
I, after I left, I just now, I don't think my life can ever be
36:44
as satisfying knowing that that place is there.
36:46
And I'm not like it's, there's so many places in China to see.
36:50
And then you got beaches, you know, you can go to Sanya, you,
36:52
you know, Sanya Island. And you also have that in Fuji,
36:55
and you also have a lot of that in Guangdong.
36:58
I mean, whatever kind of food you're into, you like spicy
37:00
food, Sichuan, Chongqing, where you're from, like there's so
37:03
many amazing places in China that whatever you're into, they
37:07
have it. Yeah, people need to understand
37:11
China is like US. It's a continental size country.
37:15
It it it it's has great variety and and it has a lot of
37:20
different cultural variations. People should, should, should
37:23
just come visit. Now, having said all of that,
37:25
all everything, now I want to pick your brain a little bit,
37:30
You know, what is your outlook for the future Sino American
37:36
relationship? Now, obviously both of us wanted
37:38
to see the relationship improve, but given the current
37:43
trajectory, where do you do you see in the aftermath of she
37:48
Trump meeting in Korea? You know, where do you think,
37:52
where do you think it's going? This is such a complex question
37:56
because I, I, I generally try not to tell the future, but I
38:00
also do this to all my guests. So I ask, I have, like you, all
38:05
these brilliant people like Warwick Powell and other
38:07
economists onto my show and I ask them the same thing
38:10
constantly. What I understand and what I
38:13
think is that the United States is in fact trying to provoke a
38:19
regional conflict in Asia. the United States is trying to use
38:23
Japan, the Philippines and other nations near China to create the
38:28
conditions for a regional conflict which would weaken Asia
38:32
and potentially continue to prop up the Western, you know, LED
38:37
order that's existed for the last several centuries and under
38:39
imperialism or whatever we want to call what's going on now, neo
38:43
colonialism, whatever it is. So, but I also think China is
38:48
really playing the long game here.
38:50
And China hasn't had a war like since 1979, a real full out war.
38:54
And that was one month. There have been some border
38:56
skirmishes here and there with India, with the Philippines and
38:58
stuff, but there hasn't been a major conflict.
39:01
China's really just playing it out.
39:03
If China can just wait 20 more years and not have any kind of
39:08
military, major military conflict with anyone, the West
39:12
will wither away. So we have our, I mean, not
39:15
wither away, but be right sized in the international community.
39:18
Because I mean, just look back in the 1990s, what major powers
39:22
were there in the world? It was the Europe, the United
39:24
States, maybe Japan. That's kind of it, that those
39:28
were the big boys on the chess board.
39:31
Today, it's not like that. I mean, this concept of
39:34
multipolarity is real. Even though they can't stop the
39:36
conflict in, in the Middle East, you know, the war crimes that
39:40
Israel's committing, there is still a multipolar world.
39:44
I mean, Southeast Asia, ASEAN is incredibly powerful in the in
39:48
today's world and, and Japan continues to be, although that
39:51
has its own economic problems. South Korea, China, India is
39:55
even starting to really rise up now.
39:57
There's a lot of development in some countries in Africa, the
40:00
Middle East, the Central Asia, South America, you know, it's
40:03
not the imperial LED world to some extent.
40:06
So if China really wants. To have the advantage.
40:10
China's economy is still growing.
40:12
And you know, everyone said, oh, China is going to grow at 4.2%.
40:16
Then it was upgraded to 4.6%. Then it was upgraded to 4.8%.
40:20
Now it's upgraded by Goldman Sachs at forecast to 5%.
40:23
I still think it's going to be 5.2.
40:25
I've been saying that the entire year from the beginning.
40:27
I'm right. And I mean, time has proven that
40:30
I'm right. And every year I've been more,
40:34
what's the word, bullish on China and every year I've been
40:36
proven correct because China really has this ambition to grow
40:39
at 4.7 GDP growth rate from 2020 to 2035 and it needs to maintain
40:45
at least 5% for the next few years in order to make that
40:48
happen. That's part of the common
40:49
prosperity campaign. When China says we're doing
40:52
something, they mean that's what's going to happen.
40:55
All of their five year plans and 10 year plans, they always come
40:58
to fruition because China will, you know, move the gears around
41:02
it's a planned economy. You know, a lot of it is you
41:04
have a, you have a free economy, you have a vibrant market
41:07
economy, but you also have a planned economy working in
41:10
tandem. And when China says we're going
41:11
to double GDP from 2020 to 2035, GDP for the entire country by
41:17
growing at 4.7% every year, that means it's going to happen.
41:20
So what my point is in, in this context, the fact that China is
41:24
growing at 5%, maybe more this year and probably at least 4.7
41:29
or 4.8, I think it's going to be more like 4.9 next year, means
41:33
that the United States economy is still only growing at about
41:36
around 2%. So China's growing at more than
41:39
double the United States and a lot of other Western allies of
41:42
the United States and Eastern allies are in decline and
41:46
they're actually economies are contracting or close to
41:48
contracting, are barely growing at all and they're
41:51
financialized. So that really means it probably
41:53
is contracting in their real economies.
41:56
So if China wants to, you know, rejoin all of its provinces, it
42:04
would be much easier to do that through diplomacy and waiting
42:08
because if a regional conflict occurs, the United States goal
42:12
will be to use a Ukraine like situation to destroy not just
42:17
China, but all of his allies over here too. the United States
42:20
isn't thinking like, hey, we're going to back you Japan, you're
42:23
going to be more powerful. the United States really and the
42:25
realpolitik secret circles are thinking we'll use Japan and
42:29
China to destroy each other and then we'll be able to walk
42:33
through and take over everything in Asia.
42:35
So this is not in the interest of Japan.
42:37
It's not in the interest of the Philippines.
42:39
It's not in the interest of China.
42:40
All the region has to do, the most prosperous region, region,
42:44
the most peaceful region in the world and has been for decades,
42:47
is stay peaceful for the next decade or two.
42:50
And all of the European powers in the United States will just
42:53
become less relevant. And I think that is the play
42:57
that they should go. But what's going to happen?
42:59
I can't answer that question. What options are on the table?
43:03
You know, like it can there be a major conflict?
43:05
the United States might try to create false flags and all of
43:08
these, you know, situations to create conflict.
43:12
So it's possible that that could happen.
43:14
But really all China needs to do is what it's doing now.
43:17
Just sit back, watch the West slowly become less relevant.
43:23
So I mean, no one can tell the future, but you can see what
43:26
what's on the table, what might happen.
43:30
Yeah, I I think I agree with you.
43:32
The time time is on China's side.
43:34
You know, China can afford to wait out US, you know, given the
43:38
US current trajectory, it's besetted by a lot of domestic
43:42
problems and, and even and in the I think we are slowly
43:47
finally reaching a boiling point, you know, like maybe not
43:53
boiling over yet, but we're getting there.
43:55
You know, you have seen, you know, even Trump's own support
44:00
base, MAGA is essentially having a civil war right now.
44:04
So China just need to, you know, do what China does best, which
44:07
is to grow its own prosperity. By doing so, China's relative
44:12
strength will strengthen year after year vis A vis United
44:16
States. And, and so far, I think China
44:19
is on the on the right path. I don't think China will be very
44:22
easily baited into a war in East Asia because China, you know,
44:28
Chinese leadership, not, they're not stupid, right?
44:31
They, they, they understand what the intentions of the Washington
44:35
is. And you know, they, they, they
44:36
have been, and they have a long tradition of strategic heritage
44:43
that, you know, they, they thousands of years.
44:45
They, they have, you know, they, they, they see, they have seen
44:49
the, the playbook, you know, they, so, so I, I, I, I, I, I'm
44:54
not too worried about a major war breaking out in East Asia,
44:59
at least in the immediate future, you know, in 20 years,
45:02
who knows? But I, I think for next 5-10
45:06
years, I, you know, I think we're just going to witnessing
45:10
more of the same, which is the steady progress of China itself,
45:16
a more regional integration China with, particularly with
45:20
ASEAN countries, you know, as, as a regional supply chain
45:26
getting further integrated, you know, tie anchored with the
45:32
Chinese market in the, in the middle.
45:35
I think, I think that that's, that's what's going to happen.
45:37
I mean, this is the whole point of China building the Belden Rd.
45:41
project, right? I mean, it's to build global
45:43
connectivity points, but all these connected points all
45:47
connects to China, and it makes China the center of this new
45:52
network power. This is something that US has
45:56
been trying to sabotage, but with without much success
46:02
because ultimately China is bringing money to the table and
46:07
US is not offering the alternatives.
46:10
You know, like the US is like, OK, the best I can do is
46:12
military bases and some Typhoon missiles.
46:16
But but people, but countries, yeah, globally needs development
46:22
and, and, and infrastructure much more.
46:24
So, you know, so, so China is winning on that front.
46:28
So I, I, I, I, I agree with your assessment.
46:31
And what but, but, but, but, but back to the China, US, China
46:39
relationship though. Like do you think there could be
46:45
a return quote UN quote to normalcy sometimes in the
46:49
future? You know, I have to think, I
46:52
have to say I, I used to be less optimistic than am I?
46:55
I am now. There's a man teaches at
46:58
Princeton University, assistant professor.
47:00
His name is Kyle Chan. And the fact that he even works
47:03
at the Rand Corporation gives me hope because this man, he really
47:07
wants. Yeah.
47:09
Just the fact that he works there at all makes me think, oh,
47:11
there are sane people in the echo chamber, you know, like
47:15
Mitch Presnick teaches at Harvard and Kyle Chan teaches at
47:18
Princeton University. And there's a few other, you
47:21
know, sane people in the United States who are in positions to
47:25
influence policy. Unfortunately, none of them are
47:28
in in politics. You know, these are real
47:30
academic people. They're just studying the
47:32
numbers and the economy and how it can work that, you know, no
47:36
offense. I'm not trying to insult them.
47:37
I'm trying to compliment them. They are nerds.
47:39
So they, you know, they're just people who are erudite and read
47:42
a lot and study a lot and they're like, this is the best
47:45
possible future. Let's go that direction.
47:47
And both of these gentlemen and other people like them want to
47:50
see better economic integration, which would be in the which
47:54
would be advantageous to the United States.
47:57
For example, there is a factory in Ohio that was created with a
48:01
Chinese company called Lomi. And it's, I can't remember the,
48:06
the, the American name of the company, but they make solar
48:09
panels and they hired US workers using Chinese technology with
48:14
Chinese and American investment and a joint venture to make
48:17
solar by Americans in America for America.
48:21
And that is the kind of thing that the United States could
48:24
benefit from. You know what, I, I, I actually
48:27
really think this, you know, I'm, I'm just saying hope
48:29
optimistically, we could see greater economic integration.
48:34
And you know, at, at there's some point Japanese factories
48:37
came to the United States and it was, it was great for the United
48:39
States. It created a lot of jobs.
48:41
And then we, we're at the point where Chinese technology is the
48:44
best in the world. And I know there are people who
48:46
disagree with that. They're wrong.
48:48
So if we could get Chinese technology built in America by
48:51
Americans for America, that would be advantageous for the
48:54
United States because it's not just buying products make made
48:57
in China, which is also advantageous for the United
48:59
States because cheap goods like. So actually there are a lot of
49:03
ways that the United States and China complement one another.
49:06
the United States is a highly financialized institution and
49:09
the dollar remains pre eminent for now.
49:12
So as the United, as long as the United States wants to continue
49:15
to buy products from China, it can.
49:18
And that's to the advantage of US consumers.
49:20
And building factories in the United States isn't working
49:24
without China. But guess what?
49:25
If China came in, China are the world experts on how to build
49:29
factories. So like we could build
49:31
factories. I mean, if it's about like, oh,
49:34
we don't want them to own land or oh, we don't want them too
49:36
close to US base, fine. Why can't we have special
49:39
economic zones? That's what we should have.
49:42
We should have two or three special economic zones near
49:45
ports in the United States, not just for China, for any
49:48
companies around the world who want to come and hire American
49:51
workers to make things in America, for America, or even
49:55
for export. I guarantee you Chinese
49:57
companies would line up for that.
49:59
There would be tons of investment.
50:01
We'd be talking about 10s of billions of dollars being poured
50:05
into the United States year after year after year after year
50:08
after year to build in the United States and hire American
50:11
workers. You know, so there are these
50:13
voices who say things like this. I hope that's what happens.
50:18
But unfortunately, America is a game of political football and
50:21
whoever's making the decisions isn't making the decisions for
50:24
very long. And so I'm not really.
50:27
I don't know what the United States is gonna do.
50:29
Is Trump. Are Trump and XI in April when
50:31
they meet in China, gonna make a better deal?
50:34
I think so. My own feeling is that Trump is
50:39
the kind of person who wants to be a winner, and that's how he
50:42
sees himself. He sees himself as a winner.
50:45
And if he can sit down, the two most powerful leaders in the
50:49
world can sit down and make a deal that's advantageous for
50:52
both countries. Trump wants to walk out of China
50:54
saying, oh, my best friend, President Xi and I just made
50:58
this great deal. It's going to be great for
50:59
America. And it can't just be on paper.
51:02
He needs a win because the trade war has been going so badly for
51:06
the United States. So if Trump could walk out of
51:09
Beijing with a deal that helps America, I think he wants to do
51:13
that. So hopefully Besant is setting
51:15
the, you know, situation up for that.
51:17
Unfortunately, you have people like Rubio who are in the in the
51:22
administration and they are very hawkish on China.
51:25
So it's a mixed bag really. Yeah, I think I, I don't think
51:32
the, the US will change its trajectory easily.
51:36
I mean, I, I'm, but I, I agree with you.
51:38
There is a little bit of vibe shift already.
51:41
You are seeing some part of the elite are starting to recognize
51:46
that China is a peer that cannot be pushed around anymore.
51:51
And I think that maybe, maybe we'll take a whole generation
51:57
for United States to go through the, you know, whatever it needs
52:01
to go through to resolve its own domestic problems.
52:05
Because a lot of these blaming China, anti China stuff come
52:11
from ultimately the own, the EU s s own weakness, The, the, the,
52:16
the, the, the domestic structural problems, the real
52:20
structural problem that's affecting U.S. economy.
52:23
And I, I think as long as these won't be resolved, there will
52:27
always be tensions in the US China relationship.
52:31
And, you know, I expect this might, it might take a whole
52:36
generation to fix United States. You know, like, like this is a
52:40
long term project. It's not going to be done in
52:43
next four years or, or, or five years or even 10 years.
52:48
This could usually be like a 25 years, 30-40 year project to fix
52:54
United States. And, and, and so, so if that
52:58
does happen, I think there could be, you know, US and China can
53:03
be back on right footing, so to speak, to have a normal
53:09
relationship between normal countries.
53:12
You know, one of the problem is I think US is not a normal
53:15
country right now. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it
53:20
needs, it's needs to cure of its sickness.
53:23
And, and once that happens, you can deal with China on a more
53:28
confident, more confident place. And, you know, a lot, lot of the
53:33
lot of these anger, anxiety and fear is really derived from
53:40
ultimately the American weakness.
53:43
I think, you know, once that that that thing is getting
53:45
resolved, I think two countries will be fine.
53:49
So I, I, I, I unfortunately, I think China is the rational
53:56
player here and and China has been, you know, playing this
53:59
game very patiently, just continue to grow its own
54:02
strength. Now China's not seeking to you
54:06
replace United States as a global hedge amount as many
54:09
people fear that China just want to build a better China be the
54:14
best China that that China can be.
54:16
States could learn from China. You know, if if US just invest
54:20
on itself, focus on its internal development, you know, you will
54:25
being a much healthier place and, and you know, you know, if
54:29
you really, really us really want to compete with China, it
54:32
needs to fix itself. It needs to look internally, not
54:35
not looking to try to handicap China's progress.
54:39
You know, like the Tonya Harden approach of recapping your
54:42
competitor. But but but really focus on your
54:45
own skills sets to to develop your invest in your home, own
54:50
human capital. And then, you know, then there
54:53
will be more a chance or equal chance, But you know, you, you,
54:59
you require people to take the long approach, the long term
55:03
approach. You know, one of the
55:05
unfortunately one of the problem in the US is like, everything is
55:09
kind of very short term oriented, right?
55:11
So all about quarterly earning reports and the next election
55:15
cycle. So that's one of the thing that
55:17
needs to be ironed out as well. So I I expect this to be a long
55:22
term generational project to fix USI think, I think once that's
55:26
done, the US and China can have a healthy, normal relationship.
55:31
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
55:32
I mean, I also think that, you know, the UK used to was
55:37
formerly the world power. The United States became the
55:40
world power following that cycle.
55:44
And what's really interesting is about the UK was special in that
55:48
it was sort of like, oh, you're going to be the new real world
55:51
power. You're my best buddy.
55:53
And, you know, I think that was an interesting strategy.
55:55
I think the United States has an interesting opportunity to see
55:58
if, you know, it's obvious to anyone who actually knows the
56:02
facts, not the people who are just making stuff up and lying
56:05
about the reality of the situation, that China is going
56:08
to be the major economy for the next century.
56:12
So if the United States really wants to benefit and, you know,
56:15
the short, mid and long term, hitching its boat to the China
56:18
is actually a really good idea. I Yeah, I hope, I hope you know
56:26
from. From your words to to the God's
56:28
mouth, you know, I hope, I hope some people in Washington, you
56:32
know, can finally get come to their senses, you know?
56:38
Maybe. Maybe.
56:39
If anybody's watching our show, make sure people take Jason's
56:45
words to the relevant people. But really, I, I think I, I, you
56:51
know, 100% agree with you. You know, you're fascinated.
56:55
Go ahead. Yeah.
56:58
No. No, I was just going to say it's
57:00
really interesting. That the United States has
57:01
chosen this really bizarre framework because I think this
57:04
has to do with game theory. Honestly, I think I'm gonna
57:07
blame game theory. Like the whole idea in the West
57:09
is that everything is a game. Everyone wants to win and this
57:13
is the objectives. And I think that, you know,
57:15
we've you know, John Mearsheimer argument that's been going
57:18
around, right? The John.
57:21
Mearsheimer China wants to rule the world.
57:23
Because everyone wants to rule the world.
57:24
This is not a Tears For Fears song, guys.
57:26
This is the world. And China has 1000 years.
57:29
Jeffrey Sachs just pointed out China has 1000 years of not
57:32
invading its neighbors, you know, 10 centuries of not
57:36
invading its neighbors. And then, you know, actually
57:38
China is actually an introvert for a lot of that.
57:40
It's like, we don't want to even want to trade with you.
57:42
You know, when the trade ambassador showed up to China,
57:44
China was like, you know, we're just not into that right now.
57:47
Like we're doing our own thing. China is not eager to take over
57:51
the world. You know, China, like you said,
57:53
wants to develop itself and make itself very prosperous.
57:56
That's its goal. That is its goal.
57:58
So what we need to do is rethink in DC and, you know, and
58:01
Langley, what is China's goal? China is China's goal is not
58:05
world domination. China's goal is to become the
58:08
most, you know, prosperous version of itself that it can be
58:12
and fulfill, you know, thousands of years of that goal of having
58:16
everyone be really prosperous and successful.
58:19
And the idea that the United States is surrounding China with
58:22
all these bases and China's going to break out any moment is
58:25
kind of crazy. Really.
58:27
It's like, you know, the bully at school.
58:29
School is like that kid is working out.
58:31
They're going to become the next bully.
58:33
Everyone we're going to form a gang and surround them and
58:35
they're just working out. It's like just because they're
58:38
working out doesn't mean they want to fight.
58:40
Like it's, it's, it's really kind of crazy.
58:44
Yeah. I I think.
58:46
I think maybe hopefully they can't get into their heads that
58:49
United States does not have to be a global hedge fund to be a
58:54
successful country because USUS has US is very secure.
58:59
It has two oceans as its borders.
59:02
You know it, it's not, it's not facing any imminent invasions
59:07
threat from anyone. And so it, it can't afford to
59:11
develop itself. And, and you know, like, like,
59:14
like as this example that you gave UK, it gave up its empire.
59:18
But the British people, people are living far better today than
59:23
they were under the British imperial days.
59:28
You know, that can still happen that that can still happen for
59:31
for Americans, you know, it's still a real possibility for
59:33
United States. It just require you to give up
59:36
this kind of 0 sum mindset. And there's this kind of the the
59:40
world domination mental bug, But you know, that will take time.
59:45
That will take time. So hopefully, hopefully we'll,
59:48
we'll we'll we'll be we'll still be around to win this change.
59:53
But I, I really enjoy having this conversation with you,
59:57
Jason. Likewise, you know, we could
59:59
yeah, then we could talk about this for for hours.
1:00:02
But but anyway, this is an ongoing story still evolving.
1:00:06
And you know, we'll probably, I would like to have invite you
1:00:10
back in the future, you know, probably before the XI Trump
1:00:15
visit. In Beijing and and just to to
1:00:18
kind of geek out on this because US China relationship really is
1:00:23
the most important bilateral relationship in the world right
1:00:26
now and and and for the future so you know it's you know and
1:00:31
this is I can geek out geek out on this for hours but it's been
1:00:37
fun for people who want to follow you Jason where would
1:00:40
they go well if you're on X it's.
1:00:44
Shengguan Tia one that's going to be difficult to to find.
1:00:48
Yeah. Or just spell if you're
1:00:49
American. But if you just want to find my
1:00:51
podcast, you can find the Bridge to China podcast and type in the
1:00:55
Bridge to China podcast and Google will pop right up.
1:00:59
That's a great name, by the way. And I thank you, thank you for
1:01:03
making the time to to, to be on my show.
1:01:06
We'd love to have you back on our podcast, too.
1:01:08
So we'll be reaching out as well, anytime, any time.
1:01:11
I love to talk, man. If you did notice, so for for
1:01:16
people who've been watching. The show thank you for.
1:01:19
Tuning in until next time, bye bye.