Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Legally Brunette: Sandra Birchmore Pt. 2 with Andrea Canning

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Legally Brunette: Sandra Birchmore Pt. 2 with Andrea Canning · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Legally Brunette. I will be your host today,
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Emily Simpson.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: And.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Shane. Today, we are going to talk about the Sandra
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Birchmore case a little more. We did an episode on
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: it last week. So if you haven't listened to that,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I would suggest going back and listening to it. We
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: give a long episode on the background of the case,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: the facts, where we're at now. And we are in
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: a trial right now for... It is a federal trial
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: for the murder of Sandra Birchmore. And Matthew Farwell has been...
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: accused of killing her. He's a Stoughton police officer. He
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: likely killed her. He most likely, more likely than not.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Voted most likely to kill.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Yes. Today we are going to discuss the trial of
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Matthew Farwell with Andrea Canning from Dateline. So I'm excited
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: about that conversation. Before Andrea joins us, let's just give
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: a little background into this case. In case you need,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: you're joining us for the first time, you don't know
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: anything about this case. So Sandra Birchmore is was 23
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: years old, pregnant, and was found dead in her Canton
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: apartment in February of 2021. She was found three days
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: after she died. Matthew Farwell is a former Stoughton detective
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: who met Sandra through the Police Explorers program when she
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: was just a teenager. Prosecutors say that he strangled her
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: and then staged her apartment to look like a suicide
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: in order to hide their relationship. The defense claims that
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: he went there to end things and then she took
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: her own life. The case is now or the trial
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: is now in federal court and the charges are killing
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: a witness or victim and causing the death of an
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: unborn child. The prosecution is not seeking the death penalty.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: So we're going to go over some things with Andrea
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: about this case, about this trial. All right, Andrea, thank
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: you so much for joining us today. I wanted to
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: talk to you because I know that you had covered
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: the Sandra Birchmore case earlier. And then I also, when
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: I was doing research on this case and I was
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: looking into it, I also saw that you had done
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: a podcast on it. So obviously you're well-versed in this case. Yeah,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: we've been on for a while. Yeah. First of all,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I know when I was watching you and I was
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: listening to the podcast, one of the things you were
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: talking about is how you have daughters, I have a daughter.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that was so sad,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: my takeaway from the case was it was so sad.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: And Shane and I talked about this on our last
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: episode was that I think when she was around 12,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: she joined this police explorers program. And she's such a
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: vulnerable young child at this point. And she doesn't have
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: a dad in her life. And she has a mom
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: with medical issues. And she lives with her grandma. And
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Shane and I were talking about how her mom was
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: probably trying to do, you know, something for her so
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: that she was in a program where she was with,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: you know, people that would inspire and be role models
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: to her. And it was just tragic.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. And also, we had gone to a martial arts
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: studio where her mom had put her in martial arts
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: as well, you know, trying to give her strength and
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: have role model, not just explorers. Explorers, unfortunately, is where
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: the prosecution says everything went wrong because, you know, then
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: she comes into contact with former Stoughton police officer Matthew
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Farwell and the allegation by the prosecution. And The FBI
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: is that he groomed her, that he had sex with
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: her underage, and not just him, but there were other
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: men that she was with. Not underage is not the
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: allegation for the other men, but that there were other
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: men as she got older that were in that world.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Well, his brother.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: His twin brother. His twin brother admitted on the stand. Right.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: that he slept with her. Now, once again, there's not
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: allegations of underage with those other men, but there is
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: with Matthew. But it is sad when you think Matthew,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: his twin brother, William, you know, then there's this guy
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: who was with animal services or something, and then there's
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: an army recruiter.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: And, you know, they're all, there's a common theme with
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: all these men. They're all like men in uniform. And
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: so it's just, You know, and I was also thinking
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: when we were talking about this, were these men all,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: do you think that they were all aware of each other?
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: And were they, were they, I hate to say this
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: because it sounds so bad, but were they passing her around? Yeah.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, were they telling each other like, hey, reach
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: out to this girl? I mean, because they were, they
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: were having sexual relationships with her in the police car
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: on duty.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I know. And apparently, you know, we heard that they
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: were talking about it at Dunkin' Donuts. And William Farwell,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Matthew's the one on trial, his twin, William, he said,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: he testified. They asked him about that. Did you know
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: about this relationship? And they specifically asked him about the underage.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: And he, there was a gross text that he said
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: his brother wrote and he didn't believe it because his
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: brother would know better. You know, he's a law enforcement.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: He would know better than when, you know, when to
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: have sex with someone and when not to. So he
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: claims that, you know, he knew something but just didn't
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: believe it.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Now, I know the twin brother, he goes by Billy, right?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: He's Billy. He has been testifying. I know he's testifying
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: for the prosecution and he's testifying with immunity. Right.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: What do you think the prosecution wants from him that
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: helps their case? I do know that there is that one,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: you know, incident where he talks about how he and
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: his brother were, I believe they were in a bar
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: or something, and his brother was trying to tell him something,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: like he had an issue or he had a problem
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: that he had to take care of, but then I
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: think some other officers came in. I mean, I assume
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: that they're trying to establish that Matthew was saying that
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: she was an issue, she was a problem.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Also, I know that William testified about Matthew scrubbing text
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: messages from his phone, deleting text messages from his phone,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: and there was a joke about, did you Tom Brady
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: them or something?
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's right.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: You guys might know the reference better.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: It has something. Maybe Shane knows this. Why would I
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: know this? Well, it has something to do with Deflategate, right?
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Didn't he get accused of deflating the football? Yeah, and
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I believe he said something to the effect of like...
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: What does that have to do with this? Because he
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: got rid of his phone, right? He destroyed his phone
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: somehow so that there wasn't any evidence of Deflategate.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Well, they are New Englanders, right? They're
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: probably Patriots fans over there in Canton and Stoughton. Well,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: there were some 40,000 text messages that they recovered between...
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: that the prosecution recovered between Sandra and Matthew. And one
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: of the exchanges, she appears to, you don't really know
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: what she's getting at because we're not in her head, obviously.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: She's not there. But there's a text message where she
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: says something like, when you took my virginity, and she
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: gives the date and the year. And it's almost like
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: you feel like she's sort of putting it in writing.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: And maybe there's nothing more to it, but it felt
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: like that. And I think that's where the prosecution maybe
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: was going with that. But, you know, that really goes
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: to that allegation of that this was underage, you know,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: because there she is putting it in a text message
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: and he's like saying, yeah, I enjoyed it.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually, I read that exchange because I was
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: wondering the same thing I was going to ask you.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Do you think that Because now she's older, right? And
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: she's not a 15-year-old anymore or anything. So I didn't
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: know if she had the wherewithal to be establishing these
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: things in a text message. Because she does say, I
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: remember the first time you took my virginity. It was
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: on this specific date. And he says, that was a
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: great day or something like that. And she says, it
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: was the best day of my life. And he says,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: mine too or something.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: And I don't know... like how many people actually put
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: that date in the date in writing. It's kind of
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: an odd thing to do unless you're trying to immortalize it.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: You know, you're trying to, so like, we'll never know
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: obviously because we're not in her head, but that's what
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: it seemed like. Yeah.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: And it seems to me that she was older and
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: maybe a little more mature and a little more savvy
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: in this relationship. And she was looking back and realizing
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: that a lot of these things that he had done
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: were horrible. And at the time she probably didn't know.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: And I think You know, maybe she was trying to
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: keep a written record of what had happened. It's obviously
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: showing that text messages between the two of them is
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: good for the defense because it shows that, you know,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: that he was having sex with her underage. It was
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: becoming a problem. She was putting it in writing. She
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: was cognizant of it. And so obviously the prosecution has
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: to establish they want to establish a strong motive. And
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: don't you agree? Because it's all circumstantial.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: So motive is huge. Sandra wanted that baby so badly.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, we interviewed so many of her family members
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: and she was excited. She had already picked out a
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: baby photographer for way down the road. She was only
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: 10 weeks pregnant. She was already booking the baby photographer,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: looking at baby clothing, baby furniture. She had made a
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: sign for Matthew that said, we're going to be parents.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: It was, you know, big poster board. So, and, and
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Sandra was known to be a total overshare of her life.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: He shared everything and she was constantly, you know, on
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: with friends and her family and I'm doing this and that.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: And like she, and she shared this news about, about
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: the baby. And she said that the father was in
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: the police department and, She said his first name was Matthew.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: So the prosecution says, no, she would not take her
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: own life. And if he had broken up with her,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: they say that she would have been on the phone
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: or on a chat immediately telling somebody. That's what she did, right?
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: And she bought a stroller that morning too, right? Before
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: he came over, didn't she?
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Did she buy it or it came in the mail?
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: I can't remember.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Something like that. You're right. It was either she purchased
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: it or it arrived and she was unboxing it or
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: something to that effect. And didn't he reply when she
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: made that homemade sign that said like, you know, the
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: baby's coming or something like that? Didn't he reply in
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: text and say, you're the worst person in the world?
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Wasn't that his reply?
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: He was not happy. And, you know, so the curveball,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: of course, is that when it came out, that Matthew
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Farwell is not the baby's father. And so, you know,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: but the defense of course says, well, like, you know,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: so the defense uses that, right? They're like, he wasn't
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the father, but the prosecution's like, he thought he was
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the father.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: He thought he was the father.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: And she thought he was the father.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, whether she did or not, we don't really know.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, she certainly acted. Outwardly, she was acting as
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: if he was the father. Outwardly, she was telling people
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: he was the father. She made the sign. Now, did
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: she want him to be the father is another story.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: We don't really know what she knew or didn't know.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: But she was telling people it was him. So that
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: was a real curveball and also something that the defense
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: can clearly use to their advantage. To say he didn't
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: believe or he he wasn't he thought he wasn't the father,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: you know, so he had no reason. But I mean,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Emily and Shane, the most disturbing part of this case
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: to me in the allegations is what happened after Sandra died.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Matthew Farwell, he goes to back to the hospital. Twelve
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: hours later, his wife delivers their third child.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: You know, after this happened. So the allegation is that,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: you know, he took care of it and he went there. Now, again,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the defense says that he went there to break up
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: with her and she did not handle it well. And
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: of course, by taking her own life. So these are
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: the two sides to this case.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I know that according to because the FBI, the forensics
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: people testified and her phone and I believe her Apple
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Watch shows any movement ending at 940. And he leaves
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: her apartment on camera at 943. So for me, just
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: using logic, if she took her own life and she
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: is not moving past 940 and he's coming out in
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the lobby at 943. That would mean to me that
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: she was committing suicide while he's in the apartment, if
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: we want to believe that story. That is such a
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: small window of time that she was dead by 9.40 p.m.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: and he walks out at 9.43. To me, it doesn't
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: make logical sense.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: The prosecution has a lot of strong evidence in this case.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: But the defense, you know, they also have stuff to
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: work with, too. You know, so the whole thing, though,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: clearly was not handled properly, you know, the investigation. I
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: don't think that's any big secret or anyone's denying that
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: this investigation could have been handled better.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't handled at all as a crime scene, right?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: When it was originally, it was just like, we found her.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: It was suicide.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And her family did not accept that, you know, and
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: so they kept pushing and they were working with a podcast.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: They were going to the Boston Globe, you know, they
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: were talking to Dateline. They were just trying to get
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: attention on this. And the woman at the center of
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: sort of propelling this forward, aside from the family, is
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Chief McNamara.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: McNamara.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Donna McNamara. So she was Matthew's boss, Matthew Farwell. She
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: found out, she started to hear things after Sandra's death.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: So she launches an internal investigation. She can't investigate suicide, murder.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: That's not her jurisdiction. That's a different city. But she
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: does launch an internal investigation. Then after this internal, Matthew
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Farwell is, you know, he's put on leave and then
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: he's released. And then she holds a press conference and
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: she tells the world about this relationship between Matthew and Sandra.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: This is through Chief McNamara. The FBI had been quietly
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: looking into this case and they saw that press conference.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: And that's when really things, you know, started to move
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: after that. Right. So the chief McNamara, you know, really
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: got involved in her own way. She didn't just sit
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: on the sidelines.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: You know, she started digging.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: She hired an outside. She actually hired outside people.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Right. Independent consultants that actually.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Dug into it right and and i i think she's
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: the hero in this because otherwise i don't no one
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: within this police department would have done anything i mean
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: we know about the call that came in 12 days
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: before sandra was found dead which i believe was a
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: catalyst for matthew thinking i have to do something right.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: That the prosecution really thinks strongly of that call because
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: matthew farwell is angry you know he you know why
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: like he there's a text message that the prosecution has,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: that Matthew Farwell is saying to Sandra, he's angry that
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: this information has now gotten to his job.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, I actually have it. He said, dude, your effing
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: friend called my job, Sandra. What the eff? You also
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: told me that no one knew about us. And then
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: 12 days later is when she's found dead.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: You're so prepared, Emily. I love it. Yeah, no, it's true.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: That is a popular opinion. that was the catalyst. Then
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: that is part of the prosecution's case. Right.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: To me, I feel like it was that phone call
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: and the fact that his wife is pregnant and about
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: to have a baby, and he felt like the walls
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: were closing in on him. And then he sends that
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: text message to her on what was the date, February 1st,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: and says, hey, can I come over for a minute?
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know if at that time he knew that
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: he was going to kill her. I don't know.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: But....
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: And from me, from an outside position, from all the
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: research I've done, from just a logical standpoint, I believe
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: that he went there to take care of the situation
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: and to get rid of her that night because he
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: felt like the walls were closing in. He's got a
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: new baby coming along, his third child with his wife.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, she delivers the baby the next day. Isn't
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: that right?
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And this is the allegation. You know, this is
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: the allegation from the prosecution, everything you're saying. And I
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: think what's chilling is, and there was a podcast, we
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: interviewed the podcasters. They did a FOIA request on that
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: surveillance video in the apartment building, Sandra's apartment building. And
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: you see a man walking into the lobby and it's
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: during COVID and he's wearing a mask. And, you know,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: he gets on that elevator and he goes up the
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: elevator and that's Matthew Farwell, you know, and he doesn't
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: deny that that's him. But it's very chilling when you
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: actually watch the video. Because if the prosecution is right
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: and he ended Sandra's life, then that is him going
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: into that elevator to go end her life. Right. You know,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: this is, of course, again, their accusation. And just to
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: see that video. And he's very tall. And, you know,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: to see that mask on him. Yeah. You know, very petite.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: For me, it's the... the video of him coming off
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: the elevator.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Because you're watching a man come down, get off the
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: elevator and walk out of the lobby after ending, allegedly
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: ending a young girl's life. Right?
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: It's hard to watch, you know? The whole thing is just,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: like you said, it's sad. It's tragic. She fell through
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: the cracks, you know, with her life. Her mom did
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: her best, but this was a broken home. you know,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: as you said, mom had health problems. Sandra got into
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: the wrong hands. You know, she, she went to this
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: explorers program that's supposed to help teenagers and right.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Build their confidence.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Build confidence, give them structure. Right. If they're interested
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: because she was interested in going into the military. Um,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and instead, you know, the, the accusation is, is that
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: she got groomed and they, you know, fortunately he got
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: ahold of her in that way. And, really destroyed, I think,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: destroyed her life. And just imagine the confidence, the lack
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: of confidence of a girl turned woman in that situation.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Can you tell me, because when I was watching or
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: listening to your podcast, you were talking about the necklace.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: She had this necklace. And there were photos of And
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: this was in the affidavit from the FBI, from their
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: expert that they hired, the forensic physician. He noticed the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: necklace in the crime scene photos on her stomach, I
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: believe it was. Okay. But the family found the necklace
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: on the floor when they were cleaning her apartment.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: So like it just shows you messy crime scene right
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: you know whether like some people think maybe the police
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: covered something up some people think no it was messy
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: they didn't do a good job so there's different feelings
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: out there the police of course say that they, they
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: did a proper thorough, you know, whatever they were supposed
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: to do that day. There's just different ways that people feel,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: but you can't help but wonder how is that, that
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: necklace in the photograph? And then it's just on the floor.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Now in the photograph, is it around her neck or
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: is it broken?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: And it's say it was broken and maybe on her stomach. Um, it,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's been a minute since I've looked at
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: that detail, but For anyone who wants to read the affidavit,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: by the way, you can just Google it. It's up there.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: You can read the whole thing. It's a quick read.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: It has all the details if you're interested in the case.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: But it just shows you that there's a level of
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: sloppiness if that necklace... is there on the floor for
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: the family to find. And it was in the crime
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: scene photos.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Obviously no one took it and no one's testing it
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: for DNA or looking to see if there's any.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: And, and like, right. It goes to, you know, if,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: if you're talking about a strangulation, like if it's strangulation versus,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: versus what was originally said with the duffel bag strap,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: would that necklace be, be on her stomach or wherever
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: again sorry can't remember the exact detail of where the
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: necklace was but um but it was broken so where
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: would that be if she had straight if she had
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: taken her life with a duffel bag strap right would
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: it be on her stomach or does that come from
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: someone strangling you and breaking your necklace right and the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: necklace falls you know i like i don't know i
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: think the problem with the necklace that should have been
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: taken into evidence right You know, you don't just leave
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: it on the floor.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Right, right. I would assume that if you were doing
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: a thorough investigation, I mean, I'm not a crime scene investigator,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: but I assume you would have tested it for DNA
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: and blood or something.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: But this was so quickly ruled a suicide. And the family,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: they hired Michael Bodden, the retired independent. And he said, no,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: this does not appear to be suicide to me. And
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: so when the FBI brought on the forensic physician, he said,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: this is homicide. This looks like homicide. This was strangulation or–
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: how do you say it? What's the– asphyxiation? Yeah.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: I can never say that correctly.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I know. Some words are hard to say. So, yeah. Yeah.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: you know, very differing opinions from the state medical examiner
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: versus bought in the independent examiner. And then of course
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the one that the FBI brought on and the U S.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Attorney, you know, in our last episode, we were talking,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: cause I was talking about the independent cause he was,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: he's a famous medical examiner. I mean, he was involved
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: in like the OJ case and I believe Epstein and,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: and some other like very high profile cases. So Shane
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: and I were talking about that. And I, I thought
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: to myself for years, For the family to bring him in,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: they have to pay for that. And I was wondering
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: what it costs. I had no idea. And I believe
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: you looked it up. Do you remember the cost to
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: hire an independent medical examiner?
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was only like $ 2, 000 to $ 5, 000.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was less than I thought. In my mind,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I was thinking, wow, to bring in this high-profile medical
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: examiner to do an autopsy and come up with a report.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Even if you double it, it's not out of control.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: It's not.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: It was actually reasonably reasonable.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not bad. And I wonder sometimes if they do, maybe,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: you know, if they do it just if it's a
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: high profile case, maybe sometimes.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Maybe they do it just to, you know, be a
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: part of it. Who knows?
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly. You know, when it was, so it was
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Monday on October 19th that it came out that the
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: father of Sandra's unborn baby was Army recruiter Jason Pickard.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: And then he testified that And what were your thoughts
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: on him testifying? Was it helpful for the prosecution? I mean,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I didn't really get a feel from him one way
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: or the other.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't either. I mean, because it goes back
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: to their accusation that Matthew Farwell thought he was the dad.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: So it kind of makes him like it. I mean,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: the defense wouldn't say this, but maybe for the prosecution,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: it kind of makes him a little moot, right?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Right. If they're saying that Matthew believed what he believed,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: but it's more helpful for the defense, you know, to say,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: he wasn't the dad.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Right, right. Like, why would he, he doesn't, if he's
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: not the dad, why would he have to go there?
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: And why would he have to take care of a
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: problem if he's not the dad? There's no problem. Right, right, right. Yeah.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: You know, also, I thought it was interesting that Matthew
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Farwell's other mistresses testified, and I did not realize there
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: were so many of them. And I don't know if
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I should feel badly for his wife or not. Are
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: they still together? Do you know that?
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: They, you know, at this point, I don't know. I
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: do know that they were together for like a good while.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Even after all this was coming out and becoming public?
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: I believe so. I believe that. I mean, we tried.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: We tried to interview her. Yeah. Background material. I think
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: people were, the sources that we were talking to, the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: people we were interviewing were saying that they were together.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: But like, as of right now, I have no idea.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: I was trying to find that information and I couldn't
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: find it. Anything I could find just basically said that
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: they were still together. But, you know, who knows? I
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: don't know what's going on with that relationship. But, you know,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: it was interesting that he had other mistresses while he
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: was married to his wife. So along with Sandra, he
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: was also having sexual relationships with, I believe, three other women.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: And one was part of the Explorers program as well.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that. That's a troubling, troubling accusation.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what age she was, and I
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: don't know if it was after the Explorers program. I
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: don't know, but I believe that's how they were. That
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: was the common thread. That's how they knew each other.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: If that's true, whether underage or not, it's disturbing to hear. Right.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: We were talking about the necklace and how it wasn't
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: processed like a crime scene. Also, I know that there
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: was like her own hair was found, I believe, in
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: the strap as if there was a struggle.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Or you can interpret it. I don't know if maybe
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know how you interpret it, but I believe
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: it was it could be interpreted as if there was
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: some kind of struggle going on. And then that's how
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: her hair got wrapped in it.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly what the this this forensic physician wrote
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: in the affidavit. He concluded, based on all the totality
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: of everything he saw in the crime scene photos, that
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: there was some kind of struggle. That was his conclusion.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: He believed that there was a struggle. And that led
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: to his determination of homicide.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: The prosecution rested their case today.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, they're moving on to defense.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Right. So my takeaway would be that the defense wants
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: to establish that he knew he wasn't the father, so
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: that was going to be something, right, that they're going
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: to hit home on and try to get that into
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: the jury's mind. But what else do you think the
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: defense is going to present?
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Also the finding by the medical examiner, the state medical examiner,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: that this was a suicide.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's right, because it was originally, she said it
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: was a suicide. It's at undetermined. We just actually, right
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: before you jumped on, we were talking about it and
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: they changed, she changed it to undetermined.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Yes. Okay. Right. Thank you. See, you were so prepared.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: So yeah. So undetermined is something obviously the defense can
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: work with when you have the original medical examiner who
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: actually examined the body. First of all, is ruling in
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: a suicide and now hasn't said homicide.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, it's not great, but it's some, certainly
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: something to work with when you, when like if the
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: state medical examiner had have completely changed their ruling to homicide,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can still work with that obviously as
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: a defense attorney, but it's a little trickier. Like it's
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: sitting in that undetermined land.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Well, that's reasonable doubt.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Right there is that we don't know what happened. And
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: so that's where we're at. Um, You know, I also,
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: I was reading when she was testifying that originally, you know,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: she determined it to be a suicide. But I also
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: believe from what she was saying was that it was
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: because she had limited information about the evidence at the scene.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: She was just, you know, basing it upon what was
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: presented to her. And then once she was given more information,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: then she changed it to undetermined. Yes.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. That is. So that's how it started. Obviously
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: this whole case has constantly evolved. Right. You know, and,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: and it was slow, but it was, and it was
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: like so many different pieces, you know, whether, whether it
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: was chief McNamara from Stoughton, whether it was the podcaster,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: whether it was the Boston globe, whether it was the family,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: whether it was Bodden, it was all of these pieces that, that, finally,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: it was just a groundswell, right? And then that's when
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: the FBI and the US attorney step in and changes everything.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: And that press conference that they held was such a
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: big deal. And Matthew Farwell, at that point, when this
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: all came to a head, was working on some type
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: of a paving or construction site, which is where they
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: arrested him. They took him right out of this vehicle
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: used in construction, whatever it was now. Right. Like something
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: like a backhoe, but don't quote me on that. Some
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: type of like. you know, big, big vehicle.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, can I just say something? I love that you
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: said backhoe because I say the word backhoe too. And
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: when I say that to Shane, he acts like he
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: has no idea what I'm talking about. But I grew
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: up in Ohio and my dad... I know what a
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: backhoe is. Oh, I thought it was... Well, someone made
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: fun of me when I said the word backhoe. It
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: must have been some other man in your life. It
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: must be some other man in my life. But someone
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: made fun of me when I said backhoe, like I
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: made that up or something.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Right. Emily talks to other men about front loaders, backhoes. Exactly. Yeah.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: But I mean, it was kind of dramatic, you know,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: when you think about like he's on this job and
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: that's how like this goes down, you know.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know what? I love a dramatic arrest. I'd
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: have to say when I'm watching true crime documentaries and
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: they have the arrest on camera and it's dramatic. You know,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: speaking about dramatic arrest, I don't know if you've watched this,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: but it's the. Oh, what is the guy? The guy
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: that's the widower, the one that, you know, was just recently.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about his name with Dateline.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: The producer on that. Yeah.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I can't remember his name, but he
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: had like the crazy white long hair and he had
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: like four wives and three of them are dead. And
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: then when they arrested him in Utah, he was just
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: in his boxer shorts and the whole SWAT team came
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: in and they pulled him out of the front door.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: And then his mom came out with like curlers in
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: her hair.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: One of my favorite arrests is the story I did
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: actually in Ohio outside of Cincinnati. And it was this
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: guy like this, this, This is a heartbreaking story. This
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: young college student, she was murdered, but they arrested him.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: He was teaching a glass blowing class.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, and they arrested him?
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: And they came in and arrested him. And I was like,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: can you imagine the poor seniors in that glass blowing class?
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Right. I'll have to look that case up because you
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: said it was Ohio. You know, I'm from Ohio.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There was some justice in that case, but for
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: the family, definitely not enough. So you might want to
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: you might want to look into that one.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I will definitely do that. Do you have any
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: final thoughts on the Sandra Birchmore trial?
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Any? I think it's an interesting one. You know, unfortunately,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: there's no cameras in federal court. Right. And, you know,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: we can't, my producers, Cassie, she's been sitting in there
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: day after day. So she's really been watching it like
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: a hawk, the trial and reporting, you know, back to
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: me about what's going on. And I'm going to dig in, obviously,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: once it wraps, I'm going to start, you know, reviews again.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Um, I mean, I think, I think, you know, we're just,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: we're going to see the defense go for that reasonable
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: doubt when is I think what we both agree, right.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: But to a, to a jury, are you sure? Are
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: you sure? Like it's, this is undetermined and he were
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: saying that he knew that he wasn't the father. So
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: it really did go there to break up with her. Yeah,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: and I do.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Believe also, isn't there some, maybe in her past, maybe
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: there were some times when there was some conversation about suicide,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: I believe, where she had maybe mentioned that she had
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: felt that way. And I think that's probably something because
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: they're going to hone in on her mental state.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: They absolutely could hone in on her mental state. And
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: I asked Chief McNamara, she did not go into details
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: with me, but I asked her, I said, had the
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: police responded to... Sandra's home before when her mom was alive.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: And she said, yes, multiple times the police had been there.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: And I said, you elaborate, you know, on what the
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: problem was. And she didn't said, she basically said like
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: unrest in the home, like, you know, confrontation unrest, like
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: so vague, very vague details about what those visits were
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: about from the police. But it, it just, it goes
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: to that pattern, right.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Of, Distraught. Distraught, yeah.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: So there's just a lot of facets to this case,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of angles, a lot of pieces. So it
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: will be interesting to see how they lay out their
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: case and if we get a quick verdict or not.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Maybe we won't. Who knows?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Who knows? I know. You know, the first time I
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: heard about this case was, it was a while ago.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I would say it was over a year ago, maybe
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: a year and a half ago. And it was when
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: we were covering Karen Reed that other people were reaching
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: out to me and they were like, if you think
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Karen Reed is interesting, you know, it's the same area.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: They were like, you need to look into Sandra Birchmore.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: And so that's when it first came on my radar.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: And it's so chilling that it was a detective who's
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: being accused. Like that is to me is chilling, right?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Like it just adds another, you know, they're there to help.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: They investigate murders, right? Like they supposed to, you know,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: do this so um that that was that was a
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: lot for me when i you know to realize like
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: who is being accused of this it's um so yeah
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: i mean it's i i have found this case to
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: be very fascinating me too and just layered really layered.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: And more and more just comes out where you think
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: you know everything and then you just keep learning more
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: and more more people involve more players in this More.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Players in this, like, yeah, she, Sandra had like a
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: lot of people kind of in her orbit, right, that
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: are all coming into this. So, yeah, it will be
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: interesting to see how it plays out. But, you know,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he has a great defense team and they'll
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: work with what they have. So, I mean, they're fighting hard.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what the defense does
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: and who testifies and actually ultimately what the jury decides.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: So we will definitely keep following it. And we would
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: love to talk to you again about it when the
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: verdict comes out. So let me ask you one more
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: thing that doesn't have anything to do with Sandra Birchmore case.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: But I just wanted to ask you because I think
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: this is such an interesting question. If you could have
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: one crime solved within your lifetime, you can only pick one,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: which one would it be?
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Hmm. One crime solved. Yeah.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Like one of those out there that are just, you
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: never know. I have one. Okay.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: I did a, an hour, a missing and murdered indigenous,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: missing murdered indigenous women hour. I had seen the movie
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: wind river. Have you seen it?
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: No, I haven't.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: You need to watch it. It was originally Taylor Sheridan before.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Before he was Taylor Sheridan.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's with Jeremy Renner and then the Olsen
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: twin sister.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Okay. The younger daughter.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: And it's an excellent movie. And I thought, we need
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: to do that for Dateline. Because they put up a
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: graphic or something at the end of the movie. And
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: there's so many missing Indigenous women, so many murdered Indigenous women.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And I asked my executive producer... if I could do
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: this story. And she said, well, yeah, but you need
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: for Dateline, you know, you need like a story that
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: is like finished, right?
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: You know, that has an end, a beginning, you need
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: a beginning and an end, right?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Because that's most of our Datelines, right?
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Usually.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: And that was the problem. I couldn't find, I couldn't
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: find one that was like resolved, you know? And I'm like, wow,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: this is a really big problem. I did end up
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: finding one. And Lissa Yellowbird is this, woman who searches
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: and tries to solve murders of her own people. And
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: she had helped solve the murder of her niece, Carla Yellowbird.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: And so she told me about this case that we
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: did feature very briefly in our story, Olivia Lone Bear.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: So Olivia Lone Bear in North Dakota, I believe it
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: was North Dakota. She went missing. Lissa Yellowbird got involved
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: in the search and, They couldn't find her. Winter set in.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Spring comes around again. Alyssa goes back. She rents a
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: boat on a hunch and buys some cheap sonar equipment.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: She goes out in the boat. She finds Olivia's vehicle
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: and she's in it. No way. And she's in the
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: passenger seat. Oh. Wrapped in the passenger seat.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: I still am not even sure if they've ruled it
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: a homicide, which is crazy.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: That is crazy.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: That I would have to fact check. It hadn't been
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: like a while back when I was on the story
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: and it's remained unsolved. And she was a mother of
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: five and she was found in the seat in this lake.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Lissa Yellowbird who found her. And that's one
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: of those cases that I, I want it to be solved.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: I want to do story. I want to find out
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: who killed her. Yeah. If I, had the resources and time,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: I would go out there myself and try to look
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: into it.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: But, and I would go with you.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Yes. I mean, I feel like it's one of those
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: cases that could be solved, you know, for her kids,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: for her five children. She didn't deserve that, you know,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: and it's, it's just a, it's one that really like
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: stuck with me as an unsolved. Um, and you know,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: we did our photographer, we had a fence post and he,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: we took, you know, little, um, clothes pins and we
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: put a whole bunch of photos on this old fence
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: of all these indigenous women. And we named them all
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: in the piece and we either, you know, unsolved or missing.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: It was just really powerful. And Lissa and I, where
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: her niece was, her body was dumped. And, you know,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: it's like she was discarded there like trash. You know,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: that's what we said. it was heartbreaking. It was absolutely
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: heartbreaking the way people dispose of human life.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: And, and standing there on that reservation, the winds blowing
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: and like, you know, it was, it was very powerful.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: So I would love to Olivia lone bears case.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I, now I'm like, now my producer's listening, Maddie.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: So yeah.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: We're going to, we're going to do a podcast on that. Well,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us today, Andrea. I
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: always love it when you come on, it's always so
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: fun and so interesting to speak to you and you're
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: always so well-versed in all these cases. So thank you
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: for joining us and we will have you on again soon.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: So thank you.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: We'll have you back on Dateline True Crime Weekly.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: I love that. Thank you.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Well-versed on these cases too. And we're all so impressed.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: So thank you.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: All right. Thanks, Andrea. See you later.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Bye guys.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Thanks guys for listening to Legally Brunette. We appreciate it
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: so much. As always, if you have a case that
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: you would like us to talk about, please find me
• 40:43
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• 40:46
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• 40:50
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• 40:53
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• 40:55
  Speaker 2: to read those as well. Thank you.