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The Staircase Murder-Kathleen Peterson · RN's and Red Flags

0:08
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the pilot episode of RNs and Red Flags.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: We are very, very excited to be here and we hope you are too.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: We are two registered nurses who spend an unreasonable amount of time talking about things that make us say, wait, what?
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Crime, medicine, healthcare, bizarre cases, basically anything worth a closer look.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: We keep our identities private because we both still work in healthcare, but the nursing credentials are real, we can assure you.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: And today we are starting with the staircase.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Ash, are you excited?
0:45
SPEAKER_00: I am so excited.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: I am so excited too.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: But we have to give a disclaimer first.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: We are registered nurses and we are discussing publicly available information for educational and entertainment purposes.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: We are not forensic pathologists, medical examiners, law enforcement, or your healthcare providers.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: So please keep that in mind.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: And with that being said, we're gonna get right into it.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Now, Ashley, have you heard anything about this case?
1:14
SPEAKER_00: I have not.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that makes it so much more exciting because there is some like wildness in this, and I am just so eager to hear what your take is.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: So we are going back to December of 2001.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Kathleen Peterson.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: I know, isn't that crazy?
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Kathleen Peterson is living in Durham, North Carolina with her husband Michael.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: One night, Michael calls 911 and says that he just found Kathleen at the bottom of their staircase and that he thinks she fell.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: This is not immediately reading like a simple, straightforward fall.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: Then the autopsy comes back, and Kathleen has multiple injuries, including seven separate lacerations on the back of her scalp.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Seven.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: From falling?
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: So, like, I guess, like, what are you thinking when I say seven scalp lacerations?
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, I guess, for instance, if if you've had patients, I know you've had patients with lacerations.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: What is the first thing you think when you hear laceration?
3:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, a cut, a stab, um Right, a slice.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, uh, as we know, right, as nurses, that doesn't always have to be that way.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if somebody falls hard enough, right, their skin could just break open, and that is break in the skin, could be a laceration, right?
3:28
SPEAKER_00: However, the medical examiner ultimately ruled that Kathleen died from blunt force trauma to the head and classified her death as a homicide.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: So the strange part about this, and we'll delve into like her, you know, injuries a little more in a little bit, she had seven scalp lacerations, but did not have a skull fracture.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: So if you think about that, if you're falling down the stairs, uh you would think, right, a skull uh uh fracture would be one of the injuries, right?
4:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes, especially laceration could happen.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Like if you have the staircases that have like the the wood that's cut real straight up and down, like at a 90.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I mean, she very well could have hit her head uh and sliced, depending on what the staircase looks like.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, depending on what I'm saying.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to see if there's any pictures.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Do we have we have pictures?
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we'll get there.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: We'll get there.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna actually I'm gonna share my screen with you right now, and don't worry everybody, we will put this in so you can see it as well.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: But I'm going to share my screen so that you can actually see pictures of uh Kathleen and her husband, Michael.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: So that is them.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Um but again, back to what you were saying with the staircase.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes, there could be sharp parts, but uh you know, the medical part of my brain is thinking if this was not caused by I don't know, blend force trauma, you think, okay, we're gonna have a skull fracture, right?
5:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're gonna have that that makes sense.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: But then again, if you're hitting things on the way down the stairs, even if you're hitting those sharp parts, if you have seven scalp lacerations and you're hitting it hard enough to where maybe the skin is popping open, how do you not have a skull fracture?
5:35
SPEAKER_00: It's but then you know, again, like blunt force trauma, maybe, maybe not.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: The whole thing is a little strange.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, anyway, back here.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Now, the medical examiner um again ruled that she died of blunt force trauma to the head.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: It's been uh, you know, classified as a homicide.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: The prosecutor said that Michael killed her.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: His defense is saying, no, she fell.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: So that are the you know, the that's the argument that they're having back and forth.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: And because apparently this case wasn't weird enough already, years later, a third theory takes off, and it has to do with an owl.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Wait, are we talking about we're talking about the same the same what an owl?
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Did an owl did an owl have something to do with Kathleen's death?
6:33
SPEAKER_00: We'll get back to that.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep that in my back pocket until a little later because even when I was researching this and writing this up, I'm like, what is this?
6:43
SPEAKER_00: No way.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we're not gonna sit here and pretend that as two nurses with microphones, that we are going to solve a forensic homicide, right?
6:53
SPEAKER_00: But we're going through what was documented, what makes sense medically.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, just from like our perspective, really.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: Just like what we can and can't determine from public record.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: So, a little more background.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: Before we get into that night, here's like a little more context on who they were.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: So Michael was an author and had previously even run for mayor.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Kathleen was an executive at Nortel, which is a telecommunications company.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh, they had a blended family, and publicly their marriage had generally been described as happy.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: They had a blended family, and publicly their marriage had generally been described as happy.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: That's useful context because this wasn't a couple whose story started with like an obvious public history of violence, right?
7:50
SPEAKER_00: Of course, that doesn't prove anything either way.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: It just helps explain why the case became so complicated.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: So, according to Michael, the night that Kathleen died, he and Kathleen had been sitting outside by the pool drinking wine.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: Kathleen went inside first, and Michael said that when he came in later, he found her unresponsive at the bottom of the staircase in a pool of blood and called 911.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: When paramedics arrived, Kathleen had no pulse and wasn't breathing.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Court records also describe dried blood on the stairs and wall and areas that appeared smeared and blood underneath her head that had begun to clot and harden.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: So now let me ask you this.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Based on your knowledge of head wounds, does the amount of blood automatically make you think assault or not necessarily?
8:53
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, not necessarily.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: No, no, I don't think so either.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: And and the reason for that is, I mean, as we know, right, scalp wounds they can bleed a lot.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like a really vascular area.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: So a scene might look horrific from a scalp injury alone.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: And the amount of serious, like right.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's kind of like when our patients come in with like a mouth injury.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: It looks like they're just spitting blood, right?
9:23
SPEAKER_00: But it might be the smallest little cut, they bit their cheek, right?
9:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just a vascular area.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Sucker bleeds and bleeds that we're on the topic of the mouth.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: Mouth, and then it's like so hard to get it to stop too, because it's like such a moist area.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yes, so I agree.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: I I just I'm trying to think um other vascular areas.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the head and the tongue, like the mouth, um, and then the well, I guess your mucous membranes, right?
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Like the inside of the nose, um, that as well.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so um the amount of blood matters, but to me, it doesn't tell us by itself whether the injury came from a fall or an assault necessarily, because you would think that if she was assaulted with a blunt force object, um that there would be blood if she has lacerations, regardless, and there would probably be a lot of blood.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: But same if she fell down the stairs, right?
10:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, no matter what, if you're getting a laceration in the scalp, there's going to be blood.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: So I don't think necessarily that that's a huge thing, uh, the amount of blood necessarily.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: So now I'm finding like in my brain, uh, that there are like two separate questions.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Why is there so much blood?
10:48
SPEAKER_00: And what caused the injuries that produced it, right?
10:52
SPEAKER_00: So now I'm gonna show you a quick picture here of the crime scene.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: So this was the actual staircase that she fell down, right?
11:00
SPEAKER_00: And you can see like there's still some blood smearing on the walls.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: There's some dried blood on the sides, and you can tell here on this um, huh?
11:09
SPEAKER_00: What's the back of the stair called?
11:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's called something, right?
11:14
SPEAKER_00: Like people threshold.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, what is it?
11:17
SPEAKER_00: There is a name for it.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: There's a name for it.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, it's on the back of the stair, and it's you can see it looks a little smeared, right?
11:25
SPEAKER_00: It does.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: So a riser.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: It's a riser.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: A riser.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes, a riser.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: That's what I was looking for.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Blood all over the riser.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's blood all over the riser, and it looks a little smeared.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: So um, now they do the autopsy, and this is where like my nurse brain starts collecting questions.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: See, lacerations from a staircase like that.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, right, because if you look, it's kind of rounded edges, and that's there's not, I mean, what is this?
11:54
SPEAKER_00: Is this a boiler on the side on the right?
11:57
SPEAKER_00: You know what that is?
11:58
SPEAKER_00: What a chair lift.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a chair.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: Is this a chair?
12:02
SPEAKER_00: There's a chair.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: I think it put it flips up and then flips down.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: We have so many patients with those.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, what did she have a chairlift for?
12:11
SPEAKER_00: They weren't elderly.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, now I need to I don't know if I saw in my research that they lived with any elderly folks.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: My bad if I left a hole.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, that is what that looks like.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: So that is really interesting.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: But looking at this photo, you're right.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: There are no sharp like sections that are like standing out, except for maybe the chair lift.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: But even so, gosh darn.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: That's wild.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, anyway, yeah, that's that's really strange.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: So, uh, as far as the autopsy, the medical examiner, Dr.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: Deborah Radish, documented bruises.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: This part is weird too.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Documented.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: But you did?
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't know.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: I must be doing a really good job telling this story.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: So Dr.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Deborah Radish documented bruises and abrasions on Kathleen's head, neck, injuries on her arms, wrists, and hands, along with the seven distinct lacerations on the back of her scalp.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm going to show you a diagram.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, here is uh, well, first here's Mr.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Peterson in court with his defense attorney.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, but here are some actual diagrams that they used in court.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: I thought it's easier to see now, so I can like it is so if you yeah, so if you look at the lacerations, I mean, you can see like in some of them, I mean, the skin was peeled back, which would make sense because a like a friction and shear type thing, if you're hitting something, but again, this just kind of the way it's peeled back, yeah.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it it almost makes me.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: That's I because for instance, we call this de-gloving on a finger, right?
14:04
SPEAKER_00: When skin is peeled back, or a skin tear if it's on somebody's forearm, and what this is reading is like a big skin tear, right?
14:14
SPEAKER_00: Big ass skin tear, big ass skin tear, yes, big ass skin tear.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And so again, when I'm looking at like a banana peel, like you're peeling up.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: That is what it looks like, right there.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: I agree, and it's I mean, but then if you look at the rest of her, I mean, look at the front, her face.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: There are so many different little bubbles that are showing where wounds were on the back of her arms, on her back, her elbows, her hands, her forearms, like it's just a really odd.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess this poor lady, by the way, awful.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: This is awful.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Imagine, especially for her family.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, oh my gosh, we'll get back to that, but it's awful.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: So again, if you're if you're falling downstairs, let's let's play it from that angle first.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: If you're falling downstairs, it is very likely you're going to hit hit your extremities on the way down.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna hit your back, you're gonna hit your chest, right?
15:10
SPEAKER_00: As you're, you know, presumably flipping or whatever you're doing.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: But with a I guess if they're saying it's a homicide, the Emmy ruled it a homicide with a blunt force object, I mean, do these injuries seem consistent with that?
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't, I mean, I don't know.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to say.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: Cause again, we're nurses, right?
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: We are not, we're not gonna be able to tell you, but just looking at this, I mean, she would have had to be injured, I mean, hit with this blunt force object.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, unless she was hit in the head, and then these other injuries came from falling on the stairs, right?
15:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean they they're saying you said bruising, right?
16:01
SPEAKER_00: The whole bruisings, abrasions, and like as you get older, right?
16:06
SPEAKER_00: You're your yeah, your skin gets thin.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Yep, and so you bruise easier.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so yes, I could see that, but I'm the the head lacerations, like I'm I'm still looking at this, trying to think going down the stairs.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: I know.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know, wild, especially after seeing the stairs, and again, yeah, yeah.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: We could argue that she hit her head hard enough to where the force caused the skin to break open, but then without a skull fracture.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: That's the part that is just bizarre to me.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so here is an important terminology thing.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: A laceration, like we talked about, does not automatically mean that somebody was cut with something sharp.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Blunt force can split or tear the skin too.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, the word just describes the wound, it doesn't identify like the weapon or even the mechanism itself.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: So, like again, if I see laceration in in a chart, I might first think, okay, it was a sharp object, but I've seen lacerations that have not come from sharp object.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, mechanism matters, and I think that's where just the forensic pathology comes in.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: So Radish, the medical examiner, determined that the cause of death, again, was blunt force trauma to the head.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Now, this becomes the whole fight.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Was it a fall or assault?
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Prosecutors argued that Kathleen had been beaten with a blunt instrument.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: And defense attorney David Rudolph argued that she just fell down the stairs.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: It's tempting to look at seven wounds and say, oh, there's no way that's a fall, but that's a forensic conclusion, not a nursing conclusion.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Now we can discuss bleeding, medications, fall risk, wound terminology, whether a specific wound pattern proves assault versus a stairfall or a forensic pathology and biomechanics question.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: But what, you know, again, we're kind of limited.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: So we're just looking at it as basic ladies that are interested in this type of stuff, but also with this background, right?
18:22
SPEAKER_00: It sounds bad that we're interested in okay.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: Again, this is awful.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And we do keep in mind the families, the victim, right?
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we should say that as well.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Now, here's where it gets a little funky.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, already is funky.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay, maybe okay, let me back up more funky.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's a lot of funkiness still coming.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh now, toxicology became part of the defense theory too.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: So evidence at trial included alcohol and diazepam, valume to be specific, which the defense used to argue that Kathleen may have been more vulnerable to a fall.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Because Ash, if you think okay, your patient took volume and then went and had a drink or two, what are you thinking?
19:14
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be at increased risk.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, exactly.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: It's exactly right.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Because, as you know, uh diazepam being a benzo, it's combining alcohol with it can worsen things like maybe sedation or impair her balance, coordination, reaction time.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: That can increase a fall risk, but it still, to be clear, does not establish that a fall occurred, but that was taken into consideration.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Now, the prosecutor's theory, the state argued that Michael intentionally killed Kathleen.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: A huge part of the case involved the scene itself.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: So the medical examiner's homicide determination and expert interpretation of blood patterns were included in making this assumption, right?
20:03
SPEAKER_00: So one of the state's major experts was SBI agent Dwayne Deaver.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: He testified that Kathleen had been struck multiple times before falling and interpreted blood evidence as suggesting that Michael was close to her when she was injured, and that portions of the scene had been cleaned.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So that was coming from again, uh a professional that the bottom of the stairs you're saying based on it where it was it was cleaned, based on what Mr.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: Beaver said, one of the experts.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Now, if you are on the jury and a bloodstain expert is telling you that, you know, it look is basically what we just talked about that Michael had to have been there, it was caused by blunt force trauma.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, that you know, portions of the scene looked like they had been cleaned.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: How much weight are you giving an expert?
21:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're an expert.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: I know, right?
21:15
SPEAKER_00: You're an expert.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of amount of weight, right?
21:20
SPEAKER_00: You're an expert.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm sitting on that jury and I'm hearing that, I'm thinking, what?
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, this guy knows what he's talking about, and he's saying that it looks like the blood was cleaned up.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: He's literally a blood stain expert.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: So did they go into detail, like where uh was it like oh not that I saw in my research, they could, but I didn't come across it in the research that I did.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Now, at the time when he was testifying this, it sounds incredibly powerful, right?
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Except years later, serious problems emerged about Deaver's qualifications.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: And testimony.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: So the later appellate proceedings treated those problems as um significant enough that he was granted an entirely new trial, just based on basically Diver's qualifications and testimony being a problem.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Like it was significant enough.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: So what what do you know what the what the problem was?
22:21
SPEAKER_00: What was wrong with him?
22:22
SPEAKER_00: So Diver, Deaver, he was the bloodstain expert, right?
22:26
SPEAKER_00: That they brought up to testify.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Apparently, he had issues with like his um qualifications, like he wasn't like he wasn't an expert.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, right.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't like look super deep into it, but all it said was that his qualifications were questioned or whatever, and his testimony was there for a problem, right?
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Because now, if you're if if you have this guy up there claiming he's an expert, and that was a huge part of the case, well, now that's I mean, that was grounds enough.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: I guess the what did we say?
23:07
SPEAKER_00: The appellate appellate, the appellate proceedings said that they were significant enough.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: So for anybody who doesn't know what a appellate is, it just refers to the power or process of a higher court reviewing the legal decision.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you for explaining that.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that way easier than a pellet?
23:25
SPEAKER_00: I would have rather read the definition, to be honest.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: Seriously, instead of saying the word.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, so the North Carolina Court of Appeals affirmed that ruling in 2013.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So we're guilty, we're still guilty.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Now, blood on a wall is physical evidence.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: So what somebody says that blood proves is interpretation.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: So that was his expert interpretation, right?
23:53
SPEAKER_00: So if the interpretation or the expert isn't reliable, well, that matters enormously.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it got this guy a whole new trial.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: It didn't really change the outcome, right?
24:02
SPEAKER_00: But it did get him a new trial, which is so crazy.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: It says, Why you have to vet your people?
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Um I really am interested to see.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, we'll have to do like an update.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, or maybe someone in the comments will tell us what ended up actually what they found out about Deaver, because now I'm curious.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why that didn't dawn on me.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: So curious.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so maybe someone will tell us.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so again, that still doesn't make Michael innocent.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: It just means that a major component of the prosecution's forensic case was seriously undermined.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: So uh a huge blow.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: Now, here's where it gets funkier.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm gonna tell you something that sounds too on the nose to even be real.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Years earlier, family friend Elizabeth, or they called her Liz Ratliff, was found dead near the bottom of a staircase in Germany.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: Stop.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: Again, so let's let's go back.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: A family friend named Liz lived in Germany.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Again, the Petersons are in North Carolina.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: This family friend lived in Germany.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, Michael knew her, and she was found dead at the bottom of her staircase.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Now, after her death, he and his then wife became guardians of Ratliff's two daughters.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: So, again, this wasn't Kathleen, it was the previous wife, but they became guardians of Ratliff's two daughters.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, okay, well, we're gonna move on, and then I want your I want your opinion on something.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, the 2023 interview adds a useful detail about the history.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, they interviewed uh Michael, and that's what we're talking about here.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Ratliff's death had originally been attributed to a stroke by German and U.S.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: military authorities.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Before Michael's trial, they exhumed her body and brought it to North Carolina, and a later examination classified her death differently.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: I know! Like, what is even happening?
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, it just feels like there's so many like twists and turns, and I don't know, it's just crazy.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: So, like emotionally, that's enormous, but yeah, we still have to ask whether it actually helps prove what happened to Kathleen or whether knowing it like makes it harder to evaluate Kathleen's death independently.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: So, I guess, like, does knowing about Elizabeth change your opinion?
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, are we just seeing a pattern because we know about this?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Do we think it's just coincidental?
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are your thoughts on this?
26:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean coincidence.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, think about it.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: We get patients that fall down the stairs.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: That is not an abnormal occurrence, no, but I think the fact that it's like it has to do with him.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's like this fall, yes, staircase, and then this fall, that's odd.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: Does it change like, oh, I a hundred percent like, yeah, you know, he's guilty?
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it puts a little bit towards it, but it doesn't like really it doesn't completely sway you, not a hundred percent, not okay, not no, so it's just kind of like you know, uh, it adds to it, it builds a little bit to it, but it's not like, oh yeah, for sure.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I I don't know, like the whole thing is just so strange.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: The fact that he got custody of this woman's kids, it just seems like yeah, what is that?
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Isn't there a movie or isn't there a saying?
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Something degrees, how we're all connected.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: There is sense, yes, but I'm still waiting for this damn owl.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh yeah, the owl.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're getting there, we're getting there.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: So um here's another interesting layer.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Now, Michael, like I said earlier, did a uh an interview in 2023 with attorney at Law Magazine, and Michael still denied responsibility for Kathleen's death.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I read this entire interview, and this man is just completely denying it still.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, he said that when he found her at the bottom of the stairs with blood around her, a fall was simply what he assumed had happened, right?
28:33
SPEAKER_00: He also said that he could not say what actually caused her death, whether she fell, was struck, or something else happened.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: But that is Michael's account, not an independently established fact.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: But I think that it's just worth hearing his position in his own later words.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: He said something, and don't, I'm not quoting him, but he said something when I was reading it and doing my research that he, you know, was kind of like, Well, what do I have to lose?
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Right?
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's not gonna change the outcome.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: She's not gonna come back.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: My jail sentence isn't gonna be changed, it doesn't matter if it's true or not, something like that.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Not do not quote me, but you know what I mean?
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, he still adamantly denies that he had anything to do with it.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so like, does hearing him say that he doesn't know what happened change anything for you, or no?
29:20
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, I didn't think it did for me either.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: No, now I have my own like thoughts about it.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Theory.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Yep, totally.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Now I wish I could do like a drum roll, like drum roll, drum roll, and then the owl.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: Now, this is just I was like so confused by this at first.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: Now we are arriving at the theory that sounds completely ridiculous the first time you hear it.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Durham attorney and Peterson uh neighbor, Larry Pollard.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: So he was just to rephrase that because I I said that weird, he is an attorney and was Peterson's neighbor.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: His name was Larry Pollard.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: He advanced what became known as the owl theory.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: So Kathleen, I I I don't know.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: Kathleen, he he's saying that she may have been attacked outside by an owl, suffered scalp injuries, gone inside, and then collapsed or fell.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: This is but this is just ridiculous.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Now hold on a second.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Hold on.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: Let me let me hold on.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Let me pull up the owl that they so what I'm showing Ashley here is a picture of a barred owl, which is the type of owl.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: Now I took a picture specifically of the talons, right?
30:49
SPEAKER_00: So I want to show you how sharp they are.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: I I think this now again, we're thinking of self-lacerations.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, so I'm just gonna I'm gonna throw this out here.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: I like, you know, you see this patient in the ER, and oh my god, these lacerations, they're not coming from that.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: The first thing that I think of is always an owl.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Are you kidding?
31:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, when did you meet an owl?
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Because that's where these lacerations came from.
31:18
unknown: Right.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: And and I feel like the lacerations would be scroll to the laceration again.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: I just want to see.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: I mean, okay, I don't.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: I I listen.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me let me keep going because there's more to it.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: So uh, so uh the 2023 attorney at Law Magazine interview gives Pollard's explanation in more detail.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: So again, this is the neighbor that's also an attorney.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: He argued that an owl's talons could have raked across the scalp without penetrating the skull, and that he believed the wound pattern fit an owl attack.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Michael said that Pollard later sent him a comparison involving the autopsy wounds and owl talons.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Michael's reaction was that had an owl theory been presented at trial, he believed it might have created at least some reasonable doubt, right?
32:19
SPEAKER_00: He also said that he personally still didn't know whether an owl was responsible.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: It sounds silly to say it that way.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: But now I think what is important.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: I didn't think that they attacked.
32:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, listen, so like it's just that's odd to me, but okay, I know.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll get to something because I did a little bit deeper diving on this.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what?
32:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so supporters of the owl theory have also pointed to features of the scalp wounds.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Now, this is again funky.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: There was hair in Kathleen's hands, there was pine needles and tiny feather material associated with the evidence.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: Stop it.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but I mean, again, tiny feather material doesn't prove an owl attack, and the owl theory was not presented to the original jury, but Ash, I can I can honestly say that I've never had owl feathers and pine needles and my hair in my palms, um, or on my person.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: So, like I'm just saying, this just seems like does someone plant that there?
33:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are we yeah?
33:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not gonna pass any judgment, but I just pie needles she had her own hair in her hand.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, no, she had hair in her hands.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's her own hair, her own hair and then hair in her hands, some sort of hair in her hands, pie needles, and tiny feather material in the evidence.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay, were were the were the feathers, were they owl?
34:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, did they test that?
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Because you would think that they would test it.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, to me, if it was included in yes, you're right, because like some kind of like DNA, you'd you would track it to like, oh yes, it's it's it's an a bard.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: You said a bard owl, right?
34:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, yes, it's a bard.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a bard, a bard owl, hopefully.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay, anyway, I mean if it's not, just pretend it's it's okay, just Google it.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: B-A-R-R-E-D.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: All right, anyway.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: So I think that you know, if it was in the evidence, why didn't they test the feather material?
34:35
SPEAKER_00: And then in that case, it would have been brought to the original jury if they had figured, I don't know, whatever.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so here's like a weirdly useful counterpoint from Michael himself.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: In that same 2023 interview, he said he did not remember seeing feathers at the scene, and that others said that they didn't either.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: So after hearing this actual argument for the owl, instead of just quote, an owl did it.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: Are you at like 0%, 5%, 50% that an owl did it?
35:11
SPEAKER_00: What would you say?
35:12
SPEAKER_00: I I feel like I'm gonna get oh you know what?
35:14
SPEAKER_00: Hold on, because I just thought of something.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: I did this other research, and this might sway your your percentage.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: So let me tell you you're saying that the first his first trial, nobody saw hair, feathers.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, it just says specifically feathers.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't remember seeing feathers at the scene, and others don't remember that either, but it's documented somewhere, I would assume, that in the evidence it contained feather, pine needles, and hair in the first trial, correct.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: But the owl never came about, right?
35:51
SPEAKER_00: They never talked about the owl in the first in the first like with the first jury in the first trial.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: So was anybody like, I don't know how did these feathers get here?
36:02
SPEAKER_00: I know that's what I'm so confused about.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: Like so I don't I don't know anyway.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so just to add to this conversation, so here's the part that makes the owl theory slightly less easy to like laugh off immediately, because apparently owls really do attack people in North Carolina.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: So I that obviously doesn't mean that an owl attacked Kathleen, but the basic idea of a barred owl swooping at somebody's head is not imaginary.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, 2023, residents reported at least nine low-light swooping attacks by a young barred owl.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: People in the neighborhood literally nicknamed the owl Owl Capone.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: What?
36:52
SPEAKER_00: And some reported marks on the back of their heads.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, okay, did what kind of pictures of what no?
37:02
SPEAKER_00: I didn't find pictures, but I'm not done.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: There are other North Carolina examples too.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: So Raleigh, the like the Raleigh area, walkers and runners reported being swooped and scratched around the head on greenway trails.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: A North Carolina wildlife biologist told the news and observer that owl talons can cause lacerations if they really dig in.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: And back in 2008 in Apex, North Carolina, two men said an owl repeatedly tacked them, attacked them outside of their office, and one had scratches and bruising to his face.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: And surveillance video captured these attacks.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, some context here.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: These in these incidents, they established that an owl, you know, has that owls can attack humans, right?
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Including head strikes, lacerations.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: They're possible in North Carolina.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: They don't establish that that's what happened to Kathleen.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh and and as far as that wildlife biologist that was interviewed by News and Observer, he said he wasn't aware of any fatal human owl attacks.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: But again, if if if what the original attorney, I forget is it Pollard, uh, if what he said is accurate, she could have been attacked outside, freaked out, but then how did she run upstairs?
38:25
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I was gonna say.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, okay, that's fine, right?
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, maybe this is gonna persuade me.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, okay, maybe like 35, 40 percent.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: But then I'm like, okay, I'm thinking about it.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: You get attacked by an owl, you're outside.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: Ah, yeah.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay, you come inside, you run upstairs, and then you just like miraculously fall down the stairs.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Maybe she was running up to clean her wounds and I got dizzy.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, remember, she had Venus and alcohol in her system, right?
38:53
SPEAKER_00: But like, I guess my question for you is does knowing that there are documented North Carolina owl attacks move your percentage at all?
39:01
SPEAKER_00: It does, yeah.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, and that's looking up these lacerations, and there's uh they look similar.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, no, okay.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: Some are like little puncture, yeah, like puncture, puncture wound.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, there's some that are like, you know, small like scrapes.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: Um now, these are just what I'm just looking right at right now, but what you showed in um a couple slides.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: On the actual diagram.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is not anything that looks like an owl attack.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, but again, I'm I mean so this we're gonna give a little clinical side eye, then, huh?
39:44
SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: So you're saying the uh attacks that you're seeing from the owls are nothing like they look more like punctures, puncture or like little from like their digs.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, maybe tiny skin tears.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Not like you're peeling a banana.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like that's that is like yeah, well, I'll tell you what I could see.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: Amanda, I could see the theory though.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: You get attacked, yes, you're you have volume, you've been drinking now, right?
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Yep, you run upstairs, like she's she's bleeding.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Maybe she trips on her blood, yes, upstairs.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: Maybe she was losing blood quickly.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: We don't know, yeah, we don't know.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: I mean, was she on a blood thinner?
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, we don't know any of that.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Alcohol, it's thinning it even thinning your blood, alcohol thins your blood.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: So just yeah, so ultimately Michael ended up can being convicted of murder in 2003 and sentenced to life in prison.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: But I know the case never really disappeared, though.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: It became the subject of uh a documentary series called The Staircase that was later distributed by Netflix.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: It looks like John Xavier De La Straits de la Straits uh was the one that that created that, and then also a 2022 HBO dramatized miniseries.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'm usually pretty good about all of that.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: I want to say I did not see that.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: I want to say I did start watching, I just can't remember.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: I watched so many things like this.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I couldn't tell you, but anyway, the case has also generated books, podcasts, and years of television coverage.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: The attorney at Law Magazine interview is useful here because it shows how Michael like described the case decades later, including his criticism.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this was something else, too.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: He brought up that his bisexuality was presented at trial.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: What does that have to do?
41:47
SPEAKER_00: So well, I think that back then it wasn't as widely um accepted.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: So they think that that could have also swayed the jury, right?
41:59
SPEAKER_00: So he brought up that he, you know, how his bisexuality was presented at trial.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: He also talked about his view of Dever's testimony and his continued denial that he even killed Kathleen.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, so after the Deaver issues, Michael was granted a new trial in 2017.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Rather than go through another trial, he entered an Alford plea to voluntary manslaughter.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: So I had to look this up because an Alfred plea allows a defendant to maintain innocence while accepting a guilty plea because the prosecution has evidence that could result in a conviction.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's not an exoneration.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, and in that 2023 interview, Michael said that the decision came down partly to risk.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: He was older, he had already spent years incarcerated, and he honestly just didn't want to put his family through another trial while risking another conviction.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: So after all this, the blood, the seven scalp wounds, the experts, Elizabeth, the owl theory, the overturned conviction, the Alfred plea.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: We're still left with the question that made the case famous, which what the hell actually happened on that staircase to Kathleen?
43:13
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that is our clinical side eye.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: What is the biggest red flag in this case for you?
43:19
SPEAKER_00: To everyone that's listening and viewing, uh, Ash, what is the biggest red flag for you?
43:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not even for me, like with the red flag.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: I want to, I feel like I want more dates on it.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: Cause like was there blood splatter on him?
43:38
SPEAKER_00: Was there any kind of um, but see, it was it was so long ago.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, now with forensics, it's so um I know, I know there.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: I I feel like I have so many questions and so just I mean, obviously unanswered.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: I know, and I want to know.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, uh after all of the different, oh my gosh.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and I should tell everybody, our sources will be listed on the post.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: So just you know, keep that in mind.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: So please take a look at our sources uh to know where we got all of this information.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that ultimately for me, there is like a lot of question marks, but I think that is why this case was so appealing to everybody, because there was just so many twists and turns and more questions than answers.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, yeah, if if he's innocent, like any, you know, obviously we can't say, but that's awful, right?
44:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I mean, he's maintaining his innocence.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: I I just I don't know.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: I just feel like, in my opinion, do we again?
44:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm no not an a lawyer, yeah.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe I should have been.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just feel like was there enough evidence to convict him?
45:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, right.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: Like you, your your wife fell down the stairs, and um, there's these lacerations, but like let's say if an owl did do this and she fell down the stairs and got all these bruises.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: But see, that I want to know, like what were the bruises?
45:21
SPEAKER_00: Were they like, you know, finger marks?
45:23
SPEAKER_00: Were they right?
45:26
SPEAKER_00: That plays a big part.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Also, like so she had bruises, right?
45:30
SPEAKER_00: But as we know as nurses, bruises can be in different stages of healing.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: So exactly.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: Were they different?
45:36
SPEAKER_00: Were they old?
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Were they all from this fall?
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Um were some yellow, some were dark purple.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Like what what what did those look like?
45:43
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think I think ultimately um this was a really good case to start with because yeah, it just I think it's gonna dwell up a lot of conversation.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: So please, everybody let us know what you think, and we will we will see you next time.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: Bye.