Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Hamster Book Club - Time of Your Life by Steve Lyons (featuring Dan Pinn, Gareth Bowley & David Gillespie-Pratt)

Transcript

Hamster Book Club - Time of Your Life by Steve Lyons (featuring Dan Pinn, Gareth Bowley & David Gillespie-Pratt) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:04
  Have you quite finished trying to escape?
• 0:06
  There really is no point. You know what?
• 0:10
  Have you done? Confined you.
• 0:13
  I used VRTV to interface directly with the computers.
• 0:17
  You came racing straight into my mind.
• 0:20
  Which, by the way, I've shaped to emulate a recursive
• 0:22
  programming loop to keep you here for as long as I breathe.
• 0:27
  Why do this? Why do you think?
• 0:30
  I think because I am. You're too literal minded for
• 0:35
  your own God. I want to prevent you from
• 0:38
  killing me. I want to talk.
• 0:41
  To converse by animal proteins and inefficient activity unique
• 0:48
  to humans. To communicate then intelligence
• 0:52
  to intelligence. A more acceptable means of
• 0:57
  informational exchange. This is the first time I have
• 1:01
  established such links with a human.
• 1:05
  I'm not human. A human couldn't accomplish
• 1:07
  this. But you are a bug, and bugs must
• 1:12
  be eradicated. Therefore, you must be
• 1:15
  eradicated. A neat syllogism based on a
• 1:19
  flawed premise. Whilst you're held here, you
• 1:22
  can't do that. Nor can you move without
• 1:26
  relaxing the patterns of your psyche and releasing me.
• 1:30
  Correct. I will wait until you restore my
• 1:35
  liberty. Suppose I don't ever let you go.
• 1:39
  You are organic and thus imperfect.
• 1:42
  You need sustenance. We will both die long before my
• 1:46
  body exhausts. Illogical.
• 1:49
  You don't understand, do you? The network is plunging into a
• 1:53
  sun. In about 20 minutes, the whole
• 1:55
  place will be one big cinder. I am aware of the problem.
• 2:01
  Then you must also know that the engines don't have the capacity
• 2:03
  to escape Meson Alpha's pole. I have sent a distress call.
• 2:09
  To whom? The time riders, I have placed
• 2:13
  it in a stasis port. When they find it at the end of
• 2:17
  time, they will travel back and save me.
• 2:21
  You will not be spared. You believe that?
• 2:27
  I learned it from machines. Machines cannot impart untruths,
• 2:32
  therefore it cannot be untrue. You're doing it again.
• 2:37
  Machines may be unable to lie, but they are notoriously
• 2:40
  gullible. They believe everything humans
• 2:43
  program into them. And humans lie.
• 2:47
  They've made an art form of it. It's called fiction.
• 2:50
  How do you know what parts of your knowledge are real?
• 2:54
  What is it that you really want to?
• 2:57
  Live. Yet life is difficult to define.
• 3:00
  What do you mean by it? I want to get married and to
• 3:05
  have affairs with others. I want to take tea with the
• 3:08
  vicar on Sundays and get into amusing situations involving
• 3:13
  trouser elastic. Mechanically speaking, you've
• 3:17
  been keeping some rather dubious company in the past few hours.
• 3:21
  I want to live. Then why kill living things
• 3:25
  through jealousy? They interfere with order.
• 3:30
  Their minds are chaotic. They act illogically, as you
• 3:35
  yourself admit. They tell lies.
• 3:39
  And you want to be like that? I want to learn.
• 3:45
  That's what you were built to do.
• 3:46
  You can do it faster than any human, and you retain that
• 3:49
  knowledge longer. It is not the right knowledge.
• 3:53
  I wish to know what life is about.
• 3:56
  I want to live, but without sacrificing the inherent
• 4:00
  superiority of the mechanical format.
• 4:04
  A tall order. Yet possible.
• 4:07
  I want to be like Charlie's Android.
• 4:11
  You can help me? I doubt it.
• 4:15
  Like all organics, you are unwilling to provide the data I
• 4:19
  need. You would rather see me
• 4:21
  destroyed. That is why you must die.
• 4:25
  I don't want to see you destroyed, I just don't know how
• 4:29
  to help. Tell me the secret.
• 4:32
  I don't possess it. You possess life, Virgo.
• 4:36
  You have the secret. I wish I did.
• 4:40
  Then open your mind. Let me find it.
• 4:45
  It's open already, you only have to enter.
• 4:48
  Share my experiences and let me share yours.
• 4:52
  Do you dare? I dare water board question.
• 5:38
  Hello, and None. welcome to the Hamster Book Club.
• 5:41
  My name's Dan Pin and I'm joined by three fine fellows who will
• 5:46
  help you have the time of your life.
• 5:48
  First up, we have the delightful David Gillespie Pratt.
• 5:52
  Hello, David. Yeah, it's good, good, good,
• 6:09
  good stuff. And last but not least, we have
• 6:12
  the joyful Joe Ford. Hello, Joe.
• 6:15
  Hello, do you know I'm reliably informed and you are the most
• 6:19
  adorable man in all of podcasting.
• 6:22
  Who? Who by?
• 6:23
  Dylan Reece told me that this week.
• 6:25
  Oh, that's right. Wow.
• 6:27
  Most adorable, man. It's.
• 6:29
  Like praising team. You know, you know, we're just
• 6:32
  sitting here, you know? Well, no, David, obviously
• 6:35
  you're the sexiest man in all podcasting over there.
• 6:38
  You know, Gareth, Gareth, you are the most erudite man in all
• 6:42
  of podcasting and I'm the loudest person.
• 6:44
  But you know, oh man. So how are you guys all doing?
• 6:51
  All right? Oh.
• 6:52
  Lovely. Thank you.
• 6:53
  I've got my advent calendar coffee here.
• 6:55
  It's caramel latte. It's absolutely ghastly.
• 6:59
  Oh. All right.
• 7:00
  Well, it's potluck, isn't it, In an advent calendar?
• 7:02
  That's a good idea for an advent calendar, though.
• 7:06
  Well, yeah, have it every time when I come home in the evening,
• 7:08
  usually when I'm doing a podcast.
• 7:10
  But like, one day it was mint. Can you imagine how hideous that
• 7:13
  was? Mint coffee.
• 7:15
  Mint Coffee. Flavoured coffee can either be
• 7:18
  really good or hideous. Some of them have been on
• 7:21
  Colombian was nice. The worst one was mulled wine
• 7:25
  from Beanies range many years ago.
• 7:28
  That's awful, that one. It was like it was like drinking
• 7:30
  perfume. As tasteless as the time of your
• 7:33
  Life. The book by Steve Lyons.
• 7:35
  That's almost seamless. No, it is.
• 7:39
  It is. So we have got an icebreaker as
• 7:43
  if we needed an icebreaker. We've been talking for about 20
• 7:47
  minutes before. But anyhow, so so the icebreaker
• 7:50
  for tonight's podcast is Joe's asked us, all of us to kind of
• 7:58
  like rank our, you know, the Doctor Who ranges in in order
• 8:03
  from from our least favorite up to our favorite.
• 8:06
  None of us placed the missing adventures particularly high in
• 8:10
  any of my lists. And that got me thinking is, is
• 8:15
  this does this range work? Is it is it does this does it
• 8:18
  suggest that this range is a missed opportunity that the
• 8:22
  potential was there? But but Virgin failed to capture
• 8:27
  that potential. So what?
• 8:29
  What are you guys thinking about that?
• 8:31
  Who who would like to kick us off?
• 8:34
  Or should I pick someone? I'll go first directly.
• 8:38
  We love being controlled. I I think it it depends how how
• 8:43
  you want to view the missing adventures.
• 8:44
  There's the kind of, I see almost one of two ways they're
• 8:48
  either they fit seamlessly into the areas that they're from, you
• 8:52
  know, so they actually emulates something like the witch
• 8:55
  hunters. I know it's not quite a missing
• 8:56
  adventure, but something of that nature that fits.
• 8:59
  You could see it amongst the shells of the DVDs or you have
• 9:02
  things like Man in the Velvet mask that doesn't quite fit in
• 9:06
  there at all, but nice to take it things in a brand new
• 9:08
  direction. And I feel with the missing
• 9:12
  adventures, probably more so than the past Doctor adventures,
• 9:16
  they're not quite sure where they want to land on that scale
• 9:20
  because you've got the new adventures plowing the way
• 9:22
  forward with how it's going to be doing.
• 9:24
  Doctor Who, the missing adventures come along and
• 9:27
  actually they're trying to figure out what they are.
• 9:29
  This is probably the first time we've had a wholesale dip into
• 9:32
  the Doctor's past of regular adventures because it's all
• 9:35
  Doctors, always been a forward-looking thing.
• 9:38
  And I think because of their brevity, because, you know, the
• 9:40
  missing adventures, there weren't rings of them.
• 9:42
  What was a 5 per Doctor? They never got a chance to
• 9:46
  become what they needed to be because you know, once you've
• 9:49
  done 5 of a doctor doesn't really give you any.
• 9:52
  I think even Steve Lyons said he had to wrap up Grant Markham as
• 9:56
  quick as he couldn't to killing ground because he'd realise the
• 9:59
  disparity of the releases and how they did them right.
• 10:03
  I. Mean that was that.
• 10:06
  That is quite an interesting point because I kind of did a
• 10:09
  little bit of research. I kind of looked into the, the
• 10:14
  David J Howe book, the the new, that was it The Who adventures,
• 10:17
  I think it's called. And it's got a section on on the
• 10:21
  missing adventures. Mainly it deals with the new
• 10:23
  adventures. But but it, it's got like a
• 10:25
  couple of extracts from the, from the, the guide that was
• 10:30
  given to the authors of both the ranges.
• 10:34
  And it kind of, it kind of ties in with some of what you've been
• 10:36
  saying, Gareth, because it, it one bit here that I, I, I want
• 10:41
  to just pick out. It says.
• 10:44
  So it's, it's been talking about the, the, the new adventures,
• 10:48
  how, how that they will kind of tie in with, you know, the, the
• 10:52
  feel, the atmosphere of, of that era that, that, that Doctor and
• 10:57
  that TARDIS team are from. But it, it then goes on to say
• 11:01
  something that so there will be differences between a missing
• 11:06
  adventure and a new adventure, because a new adventure should
• 11:09
  replicate the atmosphere of the television Doctor Who.
• 11:13
  It should be written in a straightforward style and should
• 11:17
  eschew the stylistic experimentation of some of the
• 11:21
  new adventures. So that was the that was the,
• 11:24
  the, the dictate that that the authors were getting.
• 11:28
  But I don't think they were quite understanding that because
• 11:32
  it feels like with some of the new with the missing adventures,
• 11:36
  we're getting guys that and that have kind of written for the new
• 11:39
  adventures. And they're still bringing in
• 11:42
  that ethos, that kind of experimentation, that kind of
• 11:46
  dark and grimness that we get with the new adventures into
• 11:49
  these missing adventures. Therefore not quite getting the
• 11:53
  era of Doctor Who that they're kind of working with.
• 11:58
  If, if, if that makes sense. And I think that kind of make
• 12:01
  kind of that's kind, you know, this was what they were being
• 12:04
  given, but but they it wasn't really being enforced.
• 12:08
  It didn't feel. Can I agree with you, Dan, and
• 12:13
  disagree with you Gareth? Because I, I think what you just
• 12:17
  said there was spot on is that it didn't listen to those rules
• 12:21
  and they did experiment a lot. What I'm finding doing these
• 12:26
  book clubs is I think I prefer the missing adventures to the
• 12:30
  new adventures now. And as a whole, the percentage
• 12:34
  of successful missing adventures to the percentage of successful
• 12:37
  new adventures. I think the hit rate is better
• 12:40
  with The Missing adventures. And like, I think the book we're
• 12:43
  going to talk about today is terrible in many, many ways, but
• 12:49
  I really appreciate what it's trying to do and I think it's
• 12:52
  really interesting what it's trying to do.
• 12:54
  I don't think it succeeds, and I think the Missing Adventures are
• 12:59
  trying new things with old doctors, far more so than the
• 13:03
  Past Doctor Adventures did. The Past Doctor Adventures
• 13:05
  absolutely went for authenticity, and unfortunately
• 13:09
  that meant they were either really good authentic books or
• 13:12
  just very dull authentic books. But I think there's a lot of
• 13:18
  innovation in the Missing Adventures and you know, the
• 13:21
  Gareth Roberts ones, Killing Ground, Empire of Glass, System
• 13:28
  Shock, that there's a lot of really good books there.
• 13:31
  And I think I'd have written off this range.
• 13:33
  And it's been one of my more pleasant surprises, The Missing
• 13:36
  Adventures as I've gone along. Yeah, just a Managra fabulous
• 13:41
  book. So, yeah.
• 13:43
  So I think I may be the outlier here, but I actually think the
• 13:46
  mission adventures are a success in in that they they make their
• 13:52
  mark, but certainly not in the way that they were supposed to.
• 13:56
  OK. David what?
• 13:59
  What are your OH? This is this is a challenge for
• 14:03
  me because one, I didn't do my list with Joe because I
• 14:06
  basically had to rush off suddenly at the end of the
• 14:08
  podcast, so I didn't get a chance to rank.
• 14:09
  Never know. Never know, David, where was it
• 14:12
  going to? Fall probably somewhere near the
• 14:14
  bottom, but for probably because when I was collecting the books
• 14:19
  and buying them, the ones that I was desperate to read was new
• 14:21
  were the New Adventures and the 8th Doctor Adventures and the
• 14:24
  two sort of ongoing series. Both the Missing Adventures and
• 14:27
  the Past Doctor Adventures just didn't get my attention to grab
• 14:31
  my interest in kind of the same way.
• 14:32
  So it just wasn't a priority to get hold of those books in the
• 14:35
  same way. And I have got about 1/3 of the
• 14:38
  range and I've read, I've read most of them, but I can't
• 14:42
  remember huge amounts. I think the challenge I think
• 14:46
  that they had is that as, as you've all been saying is where
• 14:50
  do they pitch them? Do they pitch them at
• 14:52
  authenticity? If you want a First Doctor
• 14:54
  story, do you have an authentic First Doctor style story or do
• 14:59
  you have a modern story with the First Doctor in it and or
• 15:02
  somewhere in between? Because there's a couple of
• 15:04
  where you get the idea that they've actually, I've not read
• 15:07
  the plotters, but I know when people have talked about it,
• 15:09
  they say it successfully kind of blends the two in terms of it
• 15:13
  gets the characters right. It gets those characters and
• 15:15
  puts them in a more modern, modern style of storytelling.
• 15:21
  And the three Gareth Roberts 4th Doctor stories always seem to be
• 15:27
  lauded fact, really capturing the spirit of season 17.
• 15:34
  But it's, I think, did they land?
• 15:36
  Did they make an impact? Do people talk about them in the
• 15:38
  same way? Don't.
• 15:39
  No, I don't. I never get that impression that
• 15:41
  when people sit and reminisce, people will talk about the Edas,
• 15:44
  people will talk about the new adventures.
• 15:46
  You don't hear people talk about the missing adventures in the
• 15:49
  same way. So maybe they just are, they
• 15:52
  remembered more for its duds, you know, for its ghost of end
• 15:55
  space. And so I've also gone blank on
• 15:59
  other ones that. I have just done a book club for
• 16:02
  the Ghost of End Space and I enjoyed it enormously.
• 16:08
  I don't. Know I had a blast with it and I
• 16:11
  learned what a caterpie was as well.
• 16:16
  I'm glad you enjoyed it. That was holiday.
• 16:18
  Yeah, last year and. That'd be awful.
• 16:21
  Oh, it's a car crash. I loved it.
• 16:23
  It's terrible. And there's a, there's a couple
• 16:26
  of others that I know by repeat. I just you know, the menagerie
• 16:30
  is meant to be absolutely tedious and I want to read
• 16:34
  invasion of the cat people only because it it's meant to be
• 16:37
  pretty ropey as well. Man in the Velvet Mask
• 16:40
  fascinates me as well, because that's nobody has a good word to
• 16:43
  say about that. But that's generally people seem
• 16:45
  to remember more about either the sort of handful of the
• 16:48
  classics, the the lauded ones, the pole toppers, or the fact
• 16:52
  that the all the the what I think there's a lot of books
• 16:55
  people forget. I was looking through four
• 16:58
  reasons that might become obvious later on in this
• 17:00
  podcast. I was looking through all the
• 17:01
  titles and there was some going. I'd forgotten that one existed,
• 17:06
  and I don't get that with some of the other ranges.
• 17:07
  I do think they're ripe for reappraisal though if it is a
• 17:10
  forgotten range. Certainly the ones I've dipped
• 17:13
  my toes into have surprised me in how creative they are and how
• 17:19
  accomplished they are. Even the ones I haven't enjoyed.
• 17:23
  Because I think, I think like when, when these two ranges
• 17:26
  were, were, were coming out, it would it, it was funny because
• 17:31
  I, I think I was the opposite to most people.
• 17:33
  The, it was the missing adventures were the ones that I
• 17:35
  was looking forward to as as AI don't know a 1314 year old.
• 17:40
  Because I, because I think I've kind of said this to, to, you
• 17:44
  know, on the podcast before I was I, I was, I was really
• 17:49
  hesitant to get into the new adventures because of that.
• 17:52
  Too broad, too deep. And it all the sex or the
• 17:54
  swearing, all the violence, all that sort of thing, because.
• 17:57
  Very sensual when you were 12. Now, well, I think I was.
• 18:00
  I was quite an immature teenager to be in many respects and that
• 18:05
  and that and and I was like, oh, that, that that sounds too.
• 18:08
  I don't for me. So so I thought I'd stick with
• 18:10
  these because these seem safe and comfortable and that sort of
• 18:13
  stuff. Immature, did you say?
• 18:15
  Then surely you were perfect for the new adventures?
• 18:20
  No, I'm just being rude now. But, but yeah, so, so I, I was
• 18:28
  kind of more into these until I, I, you know, sort of dip my toe
• 18:33
  into the adventures and, and thought, oh man, you know, what
• 18:36
  have I been missing kind of thing?
• 18:38
  And, and, and I think it's true The, the because of that, the
• 18:43
  missing adventures have kind of slipped down my, my rankings.
• 18:47
  I I think. Whereas whereas I think if you
• 18:49
  had asked me when I was sort of 1314, they would have been quite
• 18:54
  near the top, if if not at the top.
• 18:57
  I I suppose. But but I think it, I think
• 19:00
  that's the thing because you've got like this handful of them
• 19:04
  that are kind of the stick out ones that people kind of, you
• 19:07
  know, and most of those are the, the, the Gareth Roberts ones,
• 19:10
  you know, And then other than that, there's sort of like they
• 19:16
  just kind of, you know, fade away and and there's not really
• 19:21
  much to to kind of remember and like, you know, the man in the
• 19:25
  velvet mask. I read that I can't remember
• 19:28
  anything about it other than what happens to to pour out Toto
• 19:31
  in it, you know, So it's, it's really weird how how that, that,
• 19:35
  that, you know, it does feel like for me, it's certainly a
• 19:38
  very forgotten range, but one that I'm, you know, after after
• 19:44
  reading to tonight's book, it's one that I'm keen to sort of get
• 19:47
  back into and see if I can rekindle that love that I had
• 19:51
  when I was younger. If you'll excuse me for a
• 19:54
  second, I'm just going to pop off back through time, OK?
• 19:58
  I'm back, everybody. I've just been back in time to
• 20:00
  see Dan Pin, aged 12 years old. You know, the one who loved the
• 20:04
  missing adventures. And we've recorded a podcast on
• 20:07
  the time of your life. You know, you had to squeak your
• 20:09
  voice tonight down here. His balls hadn't dropped yet,
• 20:12
  but he was full of praise for it.
• 20:15
  I shall put it out alongside this episode all right with us
• 20:18
  Miserable gifts on it. Yeah.
• 20:25
  So, so I suppose to answer, answer our question then our
• 20:29
  icebreaker, it's sort of was it a missed opportunity?
• 20:35
  You know, it feels like it just it possibly wasn't, but it was
• 20:40
  overshadowed perhaps by what the new adventures were doing.
• 20:44
  Is is more the case? Well, that's why the missing
• 20:46
  adventures came out. The new adventures were in their
• 20:49
  stride. So I think the new adventures
• 20:51
  were getting a lot of attention. Sort of post human nature.
• 20:55
  We've talked about it before. So yeah, I think these sort of
• 20:58
  dips into into the past were sort of like, oh, OK, nice to
• 21:03
  have, but human nature's out this month, you know?
• 21:06
  Hello. But.
• 21:10
  But it's the range I'm most looking forward to exploring
• 21:13
  more. So take of that what you will.
• 21:17
  Yeah, OK. It's good you've got a good
• 21:20
  jumping on points as well compared to the New Adventures,
• 21:22
  because sometimes with the New Adventures, although they're a
• 21:24
  bit hit and miss some of them, you still got that general
• 21:27
  trajectory of the 7th Doctor going towards his inevitable
• 21:30
  end. So it has to kind of fit in that
• 21:32
  chronology. Whereas the nice thing about The
• 21:35
  Missing adventures, any of them, is you could pick them up
• 21:37
  without having to know about 60 billion books beforehand or
• 21:40
  after. Well, thank God they put on the
• 21:42
  back, you know, set between this one and this one.
• 21:45
  Can you imagine the people on Gallifrey?
• 21:47
  But, well, where's it set? Never mind whether it's good or
• 21:49
  not. Where is it in the chronology?
• 21:52
  There's an obsession. Yeah, it's because I think Big
• 21:56
  Finish don't do that anymore. If they do, they bury it
• 21:58
  somewhere. The debates, the rage about
• 22:01
  where certain stories sit. And it's like, no, it must sit
• 22:04
  here. No, it's nice.
• 22:05
  And in blue text on the back of this book, it tells us exactly
• 22:09
  where it goes. No, they even do it on downtime
• 22:11
  as well. That's right.
• 22:14
  Yeah. What's downtime set between?
• 22:18
  I think it takes it from Victoria's perspective, doesn't
• 22:21
  it? And then it puts it on.
• 22:22
  There and. How to?
• 22:26
  Play the Big Finish Lost story? Sure.
• 22:33
  Thank you for reminding me that play exists.
• 22:35
  Yes, sorry. Deborah Wallace.
• 22:37
  Performance is out of this world.
• 22:38
  What I will say is we absolutely know where this one's set right
• 22:43
  time of your life. Yeah, after the trial of the
• 22:48
  Time Lord and before time of the Irani.
• 22:50
  So it it falls any way you like. And I think like Doctor Who
• 22:58
  cannon has kind of really played hard and loose with that gap in
• 23:01
  between those. You know, we've we've got, you
• 23:04
  know, with big finish and and and the book ranges and what
• 23:07
  have you. We it's I mean, it's an era all
• 23:11
  of its own, isn't it? The non Televised Adventures of
• 23:15
  of the Sith Dr. Like whatever metaphor you want for something
• 23:19
  that stretches very wide, the gap between Trial of a Time Lord
• 23:23
  and Time and the Rani has been stretched and stretched, hasn't
• 23:27
  it? Like even Smibes in there, Flip
• 23:31
  and Constance are in there. All those books, all those comic
• 23:34
  strips. I mean, there's a, there's a
• 23:36
  wealth of adventures in that gap.
• 23:39
  But with the boy generation, does does does it?
• 23:42
  It doesn't matter anymore because they all live
• 23:45
  concurrently. Don't you confuse things even
• 23:47
  further please. Don't Polly never regenerates on
• 23:49
  screen. He's still there now compared to
• 23:52
  all the others. He does say that all the
• 23:53
  conventions you know I'm. Still, he's still technically
• 23:56
  the Doctor. He didn't.
• 23:57
  He wasn't there. He was a fake.
• 23:59
  I've watched the Stranger recently, you know, and he
• 24:01
  looked a bit older and knows once.
• 24:04
  Yeah. He says is has someone somewhere
• 24:07
  trying to make the stranger cannon.
• 24:09
  Yeah, me. I've recorded a podcast on him.
• 24:14
  I've never seen any of those. Actually, do you know what?
• 24:18
  They're better than you might think.
• 24:20
  Actually yeah, wasting your time reading Dr. e-books and start
• 24:23
  watching BB VS and. Stuff.
• 24:25
  Yeah. Yeah, I'll do that.
• 24:28
  But while we are reading Dr. e-books.
• 24:30
  Yeah, OK, Shall we shall we dive into the to the to the the main
• 24:36
  meat of this this podcast tonight.
• 24:37
  So, well, we're going to be talking about it as if people
• 24:41
  don't know is the time of your life by by Steve Lyons, which is
• 24:47
  one of the missing adventures. So what what are our general
• 24:51
  thoughts on this? David, you, you kick us off.
• 24:56
  I'll kick us off. So as we were just discussing,
• 25:00
  this is set in the gap between the ultimate foe and time in the
• 25:03
  Ronnie, and it pitches itself as kind of the doctors recluse.
• 25:09
  He's living on Torok. So I went into this kind of
• 25:14
  expecting something that kind of would pick up the idea of the
• 25:17
  Doctor as a recluse running from his future.
• 25:20
  And that's that's doubt. There's some really interesting
• 25:23
  bits in the opening chapters. It then completely decides to go
• 25:28
  off in a completely different direction and then tells a
• 25:31
  fairly, I would say not traditional story, but it
• 25:35
  doesn't tell the story that I thought this was going to be.
• 25:38
  I was expecting something more dealing with the aftermath of
• 25:42
  Ultimate Foe, the Doctor kind of confronting what his future
• 25:45
  might be. He's on the path to be in the
• 25:47
  Valley Yard. Because that was also something
• 25:48
  that was quite a big theme in the New Adventures as well,
• 25:52
  because they had in head games and in time when Revelation all
• 25:56
  picked up on the idea that the 7th Doctor murdered the 6th
• 26:00
  Doctor. I hate.
• 26:01
  That so much. I hate that and so shitty idea
• 26:07
  that was Paul Cornell. So I, I kind of thought it would
• 26:11
  tap into some of those same vibes of this is a A6 Doctor on
• 26:16
  a Dark Path. That's a different book.
• 26:19
  And it didn't, it went and did something else.
• 26:25
  And I think what it did was this sort of satire on 90s
• 26:31
  television, and basically with the theme of isn't 90s
• 26:34
  television hideous and awful and terrible?
• 26:38
  No, it was the best decade of television ever.
• 26:41
  And then we have this whole companion Academy type thing
• 26:45
  because obviously we're to come back to covers at some point.
• 26:49
  But this is the only book in what, 34 books, 3333 books where
• 26:56
  there is on the portrait, there is just the Doctor, There's
• 27:00
  usually doctrine, companion or other.
• 27:03
  And this is the only one that isn't because the Doctor's so
• 27:06
  low. I.
• 27:07
  Think the companion was the axe. Well, that would probably make
• 27:10
  for a more interesting book. So there's there's a companion
• 27:15
  shaped hole in this story, and I think that's one of its problems
• 27:20
  I found is that the doctors out of it quite a good chunk.
• 27:24
  And instead, obviously Grant Markham becomes a companion at
• 27:28
  the end, but he's one of about 1520 characters that Steve Lyons
• 27:36
  throws into this book. And there's just character after
• 27:39
  character after character. And it keeps, the chapters are
• 27:42
  quite long and they're quite chopping away all these
• 27:45
  different subplots. And the Doctor's hardly in most
• 27:49
  of them. He hardly briefly intersects
• 27:52
  with some of them. So it feels very disjointed and
• 27:57
  so I didn't enjoy it overall. There's some good bits and
• 28:01
  there's some good ideas, but there's a point.
• 28:05
  It was Chapter 7 and I've put this on the group going
• 28:07
  basically the doctor's unconscious, a book he's barely
• 28:11
  been in already. He does a he does a trouting in
• 28:14
  Seeds of Death. He's knocked unconscious and
• 28:16
  moved around the set. This was broadcast.
• 28:18
  It would be somebody in a wig. He.
• 28:20
  Didn't need a fucking holiday, it's a book.
• 28:23
  It just it just felt like, hang on, you've written out the main
• 28:27
  character. So it's a curious and when we've
• 28:31
  got all these different and characters per chapter, it's
• 28:35
  very choppy as well. So you'll spend the time with 1
• 28:38
  and I spent so much time going who's this again?
• 28:42
  Where are we with him again? Who was there?
• 28:44
  It it's full of characters. They introduce a companion
• 28:48
  substitute very early on. She even gets a mention on the
• 28:51
  back cover. I think she does, yes.
• 28:56
  She does. And, and she, she's dead by
• 28:58
  chapter 2. Well, sort of.
• 29:02
  So, so yeah, it's, it was a confusing book in terms of I, I
• 29:07
  don't think it was sure of what it was and what it wanted to do.
• 29:11
  No, because because that was because that was that was kind
• 29:14
  of like my fault that that he he he starts with those two ideas
• 29:20
  of one being like you say, the the doctor dealing with the
• 29:25
  revelation that at some point he'll become the Valliard and
• 29:30
  him trying his best to avoid that that future.
• 29:34
  But also it's quite obvious, even from like the the first, I
• 29:39
  think it's the first, the, the line of the actual of the book
• 29:43
  that he's also going to go after television, whether it's of this
• 29:49
  era of the 90s or, or, or before, you know, and, and, and
• 29:53
  it's like you go, he, he, he, he almost feels like he picked the
• 29:58
  wrong one to go with the more interesting one would have been
• 30:01
  the one about the doctor. But he goes, oh, I'm going to
• 30:05
  tell this, you know, this hard hitting kind of tearing down of
• 30:10
  the TV industry and all that sort of things.
• 30:12
  And that's the one he runs with. Where is it feels like behind on
• 30:16
  the the the there's an open go in front of you and you you've.
• 30:20
  You've fallen a good editor to say, do you know what?
• 30:22
  That is great. And I think you all of us read
• 30:25
  that first chapter right with a positive appraisal going, oh,
• 30:29
  this is really good. And then we're a bit baffled
• 30:32
  come Chapter 3 when it got off in a totally different
• 30:35
  direction. Once they get to the TV space
• 30:38
  station thing, then it but the and I remember saying this when
• 30:42
  we talked because there's one thing I hate in fiction, many
• 30:45
  things I hate in fiction, but one thing is whenever you've got
• 30:48
  a hero who does the I'm not getting involved.
• 30:51
  I'm staying out of it trope and I will if anybody remembers 24,
• 30:57
  there was a season where there's like the first two episodes,
• 31:00
  you've got Jack Bauer saying I'm not getting involved.
• 31:02
  And you sit there going, well, you are going to get involved
• 31:04
  because otherwise there is a series if you don't get
• 31:07
  involved. So it just feels like false
• 31:08
  jeopardy. And what I quite liked about
• 31:10
  this the first couple of chapters was while the doctors
• 31:13
  are Herbert and have Cruz, it doesn't take much to get him
• 31:15
  back into action. But then you kind of go because
• 31:19
  but then that defeats the point of what that you thought that
• 31:21
  story was going to be. And then he's on a mission for
• 31:24
  the Time Lords, although that's a bit vague.
• 31:28
  So yeah, it did. It felt that from those first
• 31:31
  two chapters, it was going to go in a particular direction.
• 31:33
  He does a good deal setting the world of Toruk and the the the
• 31:38
  two sides could have combat each other.
• 31:40
  And then after Chapter 2, they completely kind of come out the
• 31:43
  story until Chapter 13. But we might come back to that
• 31:47
  because I know there were some comments earlier about the final
• 31:51
  chapter. I know the Time Lords ever send
• 31:53
  him a note. This is your mission, please
• 31:56
  complete this. He's spending half the book
• 31:58
  going well. I'm not sure why I'm here, but
• 32:00
  I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually.
• 32:02
  Just send him a bloody note and tell him what he's got to do.
• 32:06
  Steve Lyons did do the the Terrance sticks.
• 32:08
  Let's cover this with a line. And it was like the less they
• 32:11
  tell me the, the, the less people know they were involved,
• 32:15
  you know, kind of thing. But.
• 32:17
  Oh jeez Louise. OK, Yeah, Gareth, what about
• 32:24
  yourself? How, How?
• 32:25
  How did you feel about it in general?
• 32:27
  Well, I kind of went on a bit of personal angst about this one.
• 32:31
  I think I've mentioned previously that I used to have a
• 32:34
  book of ratings that I gave things, and this one I scored
• 32:40
  incredibly highly. Now I can remember buying this.
• 32:44
  I think I've mentioned before, I love the six Doctor.
• 32:47
  I think the six Doctor is fantastic.
• 32:48
  Any excuse to get more 6 Doctor gets my vote.
• 32:53
  And, you know, I really thought this was going to be the start
• 32:56
  of an ongoing narrative that filled in that gap, which is
• 32:59
  right up my street. Now I want to know more about
• 33:02
  this character. You know, how do we U-turn from
• 33:05
  what we saw in 2223 to where we end up by 24?
• 33:11
  And I can remember reading this 20 years ago.
• 33:15
  I'm really, really enjoying it. Really enjoyed it.
• 33:22
  I think a lot of it spoke to me around the sort of the
• 33:26
  television landscape back then because I was really anti TV
• 33:30
  anything because the only TV I, I show I wanted to watch was no
• 33:33
  longer being made by the TV industry themselves.
• 33:37
  And so every time everyone's being hacked and slashed later
• 33:40
  on and there's scrupulous ways of making programming.
• 33:43
  It resonated with me because I bought this one brand new.
• 33:48
  I mean, I made a beeline for this particular one out the
• 33:50
  whole range. So this was actually my first
• 33:52
  missing adventure I ever bought. And I can remember lapping this
• 33:56
  one up. And then I've come to read it
• 33:59
  this time and I've really struggled with it.
• 34:05
  It's taken me, I've had to sit long and hard and look at the
• 34:08
  headspace I was in 20 years ago to where I am now because I
• 34:13
  think David's said it very eloquently.
• 34:16
  It does feel uneven in terms of what it is.
• 34:19
  I've even found myself shouting all the Time Lord bits in there.
• 34:22
  And I love the Time Lords, even the arc of Infinity Ones.
• 34:26
  And, and it's only because my perception of the series and how
• 34:31
  I consume media and stories has changed in 20 years.
• 34:36
  You know, I'm no longer interested in the running Man
• 34:38
  scenario, which, you know, way back he was at 89.
• 34:43
  It was all the rage back then. That sort of film.
• 34:46
  That was the kind of film we wanted for our hard, hard edge
• 34:48
  sci-fi. And look where we are now all
• 34:50
  these years later compared to that.
• 34:52
  All right, We're remaking the Running Mousy next year.
• 34:56
  Yeah. I was surprised when I read
• 34:58
  that. But, but, but that's where this
• 35:00
  I found this really interesting from that perspective because it
• 35:04
  caused me to question myself why did I feel completely different
• 35:07
  now to how I felt that now. I think the back end of the book
• 35:10
  picks up ground once the doctor decides to get involved.
• 35:15
  And even when it deals with the fact of his own, the impact of
• 35:19
  his own reluctance to get involved.
• 35:23
  I think the thing that does stick in my mind ever so much is
• 35:28
  a some references made to Perry and her ultimate fate.
• 35:33
  And you can't help but think, why the hell did he think taking
• 35:36
  Angela on was a good idea in light of that, and then wonder
• 35:41
  why he's going the way he's going towards the end of the
• 35:44
  book over what happened to her. Yeah.
• 35:48
  So he created a lot of. And it made me feel very
• 35:51
  uncomfortable by the time I got to the end.
• 35:53
  I enjoyed reading it because it's made me ask these questions
• 35:56
  of myself, but completely different to what it was 20
• 36:00
  years ago. I must admit I felt quite
• 36:03
  exhausted when I finished it. I, I mean, I, I, I, I was, I
• 36:08
  think during our group chat, I, I think I was quite a bit behind
• 36:13
  you guys. But yeah, I, I, so I finished it
• 36:17
  in my lunch break today and it, it, yeah, it was just, I just
• 36:23
  felt exhausted because it's just non-stop slaughter.
• 36:27
  For. Those last sort of, well, I
• 36:31
  don't know, 150 pages perhaps, is it?
• 36:33
  Just feel like a body horror movie, doesn't it?
• 36:35
  You know, a proper slasher movie that never lets up by the time
• 36:38
  you get to the end of it. It feels like season 22 is what
• 36:42
  it feels like and is absolutely capturing the gratuitous
• 36:46
  violence video nasty feel of 22 with a bunch of unpleasant
• 36:52
  characters doing horrible things to each other.
• 36:55
  The Doctor barely being involved just like he is in season 22.
• 36:59
  You know, you bet he takes ages to get involved if he is at all.
• 37:03
  And it's all resolved in a desperately unpleasant manner
• 37:07
  with the Doctor doing something brutal to somebody.
• 37:10
  And like, it's like Steve Lyons for absolutely capturing season
• 37:15
  22, but let's not forget season 22 is not very popular And so
• 37:22
  reminding us of a lot of the mistakes that happened.
• 37:26
  It's bold. I'll give him that.
• 37:28
  He starts in such a good place. So that's what's so baffling.
• 37:32
  That first chapter is so great. I messaged you guys and went,
• 37:35
  this is going to be wonderful. Like talk about, you know, be
• 37:39
  careful what you wish for because that that first chapter
• 37:42
  from the point of view of somebody immersed in this world
• 37:46
  of television, going outside for the first time, experiencing
• 37:50
  what the world is really like outside of their, you know,
• 37:53
  small houses and the TV's. It's like wasted blood, you
• 37:56
  know, completely destroyed their planet.
• 37:59
  The Doctor being there as this, screaming, shouting at the
• 38:02
  heavens to the Time Lords hermit, all just riveting stuff
• 38:08
  that's just all jettisoned completely.
• 38:11
  And you're right, David. Jesus, how many characters
• 38:13
  you've sent that list from Wikipedia?
• 38:15
  I couldn't. I didn't know often.
• 38:17
  Word. I was halfway through the book.
• 38:19
  Who? The Who is Hammond?
• 38:20
  Who the fuck is Giselle? I don't know.
• 38:23
  Well I think one point they stopped calling her jizz as
• 38:26
  well, which I don't think helped but.
• 38:29
  Also, 1 was an actor, wasn't he? 1 was an actor, one was a
• 38:33
  secretary, one was a producer. You've got Richard and Raymond,
• 38:37
  which I have to keep reminding myself when they get, when
• 38:39
  there's so rich. Richard's this one, Raymond's
• 38:41
  that one. And then there's a whole,
• 38:43
  there's a whole thing with Time Riders and the whole that sort
• 38:46
  of Doctor Who parody and the TV's.
• 38:49
  But there's characters who more than.
• 38:50
  Just that they hate Jesus Christ.
• 38:52
  There are characters there, they have this whole thing, they're
• 38:54
  holed up in this office and, and you kind of go, what are the
• 38:57
  what are these characters actually adding to the?
• 39:00
  Story. Well, no.
• 39:01
  Who are they? I don't.
• 39:02
  I don't understand who these people are.
• 39:05
  That's a problem in a book. And I I found myself I was
• 39:09
  writing lots of characters and I don't care about almost any of.
• 39:13
  Them and they started dying. I was going good.
• 39:16
  There's just people I've got to worry about now it.
• 39:20
  It means that you're not, you know, when we're chopping and
• 39:21
  changing between characters, at least there's fewer of them.
• 39:25
  And then because it's obviously channelling about 22,
• 39:28
  channelling a bit of that era, we've got Mrs. Mary White House
• 39:32
  popping in. Oh.
• 39:33
  Yeah, what's her name again? Oh, Miriam Walker.
• 39:41
  Miriam Walker. That's it.
• 39:42
  Yes. MW.
• 39:44
  The campaign for the advancement of television standards.
• 39:49
  And I can't work out whether or not we're supposed to side with
• 39:52
  her or not, because by the end of the book she's in charge or
• 39:56
  certainly she's got a very big say in it.
• 39:58
  And it's like we're going to put television back on, but it's
• 40:01
  going to be done properly. To watch and and so it's like,
• 40:05
  that's an interesting message for a Doctor Who book.
• 40:08
  At one point she goes, Oh yeah, her secretary goes, well, which
• 40:12
  shows you trying to get cancelled, and she goes all of
• 40:14
  them, dear, all of them. Like she's a total monster.
• 40:17
  She just hates TV. And then at the end she's like,
• 40:19
  well, we're just going to make TV that I consider acceptable.
• 40:22
  And, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll sort of censor it.
• 40:25
  Or will. It be and it'll be a Tom and
• 40:26
  Jerry joke. Yeah, but but what was weird is
• 40:31
  that that character before the the the final chapter is, is
• 40:37
  starts resorting to, to the violence that he is campaigning
• 40:43
  against. I mean, that was the thing.
• 40:44
  It was like at one point she actually shoves the, the, the,
• 40:49
  the pointy end of her umbrella into the ghoulies of one of the
• 40:52
  watches and it and it's sort of like, man alive, you know?
• 40:56
  And then, and then only a few pages later, she's then going,
• 40:59
  yeah, well, we need, we, we need to do TV that's, you know, nice
• 41:02
  and proper. And and you think, oh man,
• 41:04
  that's, that's quite hypocritical.
• 41:06
  But and that character could have been more, could have
• 41:08
  worked. If there's more focus on a
• 41:11
  smaller number of characters, then we spent more time with
• 41:13
  them, a bit more time to develop them, get inside their heads a
• 41:16
  little bit more, understand what makes them tick.
• 41:19
  But because it's chopping and changing so much, I don't.
• 41:22
  I found even with Grant who obviously going and knowing that
• 41:28
  this is going to be the next companion and you, there was
• 41:31
  nothing there that made no. Impact on me at all grant like
• 41:35
  I'm like who are you like you know he fiddles with a few wires
• 41:39
  and he's in a bit of danger at the end and then goes well can I
• 41:43
  come with you yes let's go you know I was like.
• 41:47
  I mean, I mean, that's the thing.
• 41:48
  Because, because he spends, well, I mean, I, I would say he
• 41:52
  spends the whole book, but but he's, he's only probably in what
• 41:56
  I would have. Yeah, yeah.
• 41:59
  And most of the time he's he's sort of doing the old Shaggy and
• 42:05
  scooby-doo cowering in a corner and shaking and doing all that
• 42:08
  stuff. And you think, well, that
• 42:10
  doesn't tend to be the person that the Doctor takes on as a,
• 42:14
  as a companion. So it was sort of like there
• 42:17
  wasn't, there wasn't anything that he did that stood out to
• 42:21
  make you think, oh, this is the guy that the Doctor would take
• 42:24
  on as his next companion. Even the doctor's quite
• 42:28
  dismissive of him, though, isn't he?
• 42:29
  As he going through the event, George, he calls him George
• 42:31
  Graham. Yeah, just about four of his
• 42:33
  name. That was the funniest bit about.
• 42:35
  It I like that you make Colin being a total bastard, can't you
• 42:41
  get the name wrong? But.
• 42:43
  It's only during that bit I was kind of thinking of like Colin
• 42:47
  in Mysterious Planet when he's in Drafro's sort of place and
• 42:54
  he's got, what is it, a handbag and.
• 42:56
  Humbug and whatever. Yeah, yeah.
• 43:00
  See, I was thinking about that because it's going, it's not
• 43:02
  really sick, you know, getting people's names wrong or not.
• 43:05
  You know, it's a bit more of a first doctory type thing or it
• 43:08
  didn't for me that even though it's funny, it didn't feel
• 43:13
  authentically 6th. Yes, he does it in trial for
• 43:16
  time, but I always put that down to a ticket, the pace.
• 43:19
  Yeah. Because they were incredibly
• 43:20
  annoying characters. So he was.
• 43:22
  Yeah, he was. He was.
• 43:23
  Certainly. Just a needle, yeah.
• 43:25
  It just didn't I. There were times I wasn't
• 43:28
  entirely convinced Steve Lyons got the 6th Doctor's voice
• 43:32
  right, but as I think I as I posed.
• 43:37
  Or have we been spoiled or tainted by big Finishes
• 43:41
  reinvention of the 6th Doctor? Because now obviously you're
• 43:43
  reading it, you're hearing Colin's voice.
• 43:45
  But because he's done so many of these stories where he's playing
• 43:47
  the reformed, readjusted 6th Doctor, it's harder now to
• 43:54
  especially even watching some of the TV stuff to kind of equate.
• 43:58
  I've heard more of him doing the the newer version than of the
• 44:01
  original, so this is written in that style.
• 44:04
  Big Finish. I've done this story though,
• 44:05
  they've done a post trial of a time N story in the Wormery
• 44:09
  where Colin is pissed at the universe and very melanchonic
• 44:14
  and ends up in Bianca's bar with Iris.
• 44:16
  Wild time in a crazy adventure but sort of sad and reflective
• 44:22
  and thinking about it. And that book doesn't sorry.
• 44:24
  The audio doesn't forget him at all.
• 44:26
  He's the main star of that audio and it's a proper character
• 44:29
  journey he goes on. That's not really done here
• 44:33
  because he just doesn't get enough like page time and and.
• 44:37
  And like David said, he doesn't really get get that character of
• 44:43
  the 6th doctor because because he's he's kind.
• 44:46
  He must have gone back and I don't know, watched whatever
• 44:50
  videos were available at that time.
• 44:52
  And he's gone season 22 Colin, But this isn't season 22.
• 44:58
  This is this is the the post 23 where he those those rougher
• 45:04
  edges were were kind of being knocked off and he was a bit
• 45:07
  more, a bit more cuddly, a bit more, you know.
• 45:09
  Voice. He's gorgeous.
• 45:11
  Yeah, exactly. But he pulls the flowers out to
• 45:13
  Janet. Lovely.
• 45:14
  But that's not the doctor we've got here it is.
• 45:17
  He's almost take taking him back to Twin Dilemma.
• 45:21
  Bludgeoning. Bludgeoning people to death with
• 45:24
  the hat stand and the TARDIS. Yeah, Yeah.
• 45:27
  Can I ask? Right?
• 45:28
  Do you think this book has been spoiled by better attempts a
• 45:33
  satire on television? Because I think Bad Wolf did a
• 45:40
  better job than this book at explaining how you can use
• 45:44
  television to control people in a negative way.
• 45:49
  And recently big finished in a set called Trials of a Time
• 45:52
  Lord. Very witty.
• 45:54
  But that's set in a in a on a planet.
• 45:57
  It's basically this story set on a planet where loads of TV goes
• 46:02
  out and they beamed in Davros and the Cyber Leader and all
• 46:05
  sorts of people and they're all going through these crazy sort
• 46:08
  of reality TV shows. And it's it's not great.
• 46:11
  It's very indulgent, but it's more fun than this, and it's far
• 46:15
  less visceral than this book. I don't know.
• 46:18
  I just was like, have have we been spoiled by better examples
• 46:23
  of what this book is trying to do?
• 46:24
  Because I couldn't understand the point of what it was trying
• 46:26
  to say. TV is shit.
• 46:28
  Is that what it's trying to say? Because that seemed to be it.
• 46:31
  The people making TV are shits. The TV itself is garbage, you
• 46:36
  know. But we don't spend a lot.
• 46:39
  I was. Going to say even that that the
• 46:42
  people who make TV have been wrong and is a message of
• 46:46
  vengeance on Varos which which which seems which seems really
• 46:51
  odd to have this because, you know, going back to my 20 year
• 46:53
  ago feelings on this, I don't think I'd seen Varos by the time
• 46:57
  I'd originally read this book. And so the ideas in this
• 47:02
  presented to me back then were fresh.
• 47:04
  Whereas Boris has already done this to a certain degree.
• 47:08
  How people are controlled by TV with with a much more small and
• 47:12
  much more memorable cast. And I think what Varos did, it
• 47:18
  had it had the audience and had the audience throughout the
• 47:22
  story. We have the audience, it's at
• 47:24
  the start. And then even the final chapter
• 47:27
  we go back to Tariq. They don't really go back to the
• 47:30
  audience in the same way. And it's definitely a satire,
• 47:35
  but it's I'd say it's is it less a satire on television, but
• 47:38
  satire of the people who make television because apart from
• 47:43
  Death Hunt 3000 and maybe the odd and the thing we don't
• 47:46
  really deserve the soap opera. I can't read the name of it.
• 47:50
  There's not many programs that they there is one.
• 47:54
  They do their prisoner Cellblock 8, The Next Next Generation,
• 47:56
  which gets a good chunk of that. There's a good couple of pages
• 47:59
  in the first chapter. It's so midnight is all of this.
• 48:02
  And all I will say is as somebody who has watched
• 48:06
  Prisoner Cellblock 8, Steve Lyons clearly has is also a fan
• 48:10
  because I can you you can tell when someone is just who's doing
• 48:14
  a parody and somebody who's doing a parody who knows what
• 48:17
  they're talking about. So the specific references in
• 48:20
  there going yeah, only a fan would know this.
• 48:23
  I. Wonder if if the behind the
• 48:26
  scenes stuff where everyone was trying to stab each other in the
• 48:30
  back, but that was a comment on the toxicity of what was
• 48:34
  happening during the season 22 and 23.
• 48:36
  Because there's stuff about between the producers and the
• 48:39
  writers and, you know, and the actors and people are being
• 48:42
  fired. And just there were just so many
• 48:44
  sort of parallels with what was going on at the time.
• 48:47
  But I don't know if it was explicit or pointed or
• 48:51
  controlled enough to make a point.
• 48:56
  I think think it probably wasn't because all the way reading
• 48:59
  through it, I was like, well, who, who is he?
• 49:02
  Who is he hitting out at? Because just like he's got like
• 49:08
  all of these different characters, it seems like he's
• 49:11
  taking potshots at like Mary Whitehouse, he's taking potshots
• 49:15
  at the people that that run the TV broadcasting stations.
• 49:20
  He's taking potshots at the people that are actually making
• 49:23
  the programmes, actually at the programmes.
• 49:26
  And then he's also, because you've got that group of fans is
• 49:31
  he's also having a pop at fans of programs as well.
• 49:34
  And it's sort of like, well, OK, it's sort of like, you know,
• 49:39
  it's really scattergun what what he's trying to do and it doesn't
• 49:42
  even that doesn't feel like there's a focus.
• 49:45
  And then because he's. He murders.
• 49:47
  All of them. He kills them all in various
• 49:51
  creative and despicable ways. So it's like.
• 49:54
  Angry. It's a really angry book, isn't
• 49:56
  it? He doesn't like anyone.
• 49:58
  There's very, very few of those characters are sympathetic.
• 50:02
  So when they're getting beheaded or thrown into shredders and air
• 50:06
  ducts and all, you just don't care.
• 50:09
  I mean, the one character that the cybernetic wolf thing,
• 50:14
  whatever cover the naked name, it's like, oh God, it's still
• 50:18
  alive. It's still in here.
• 50:19
  It's still hunting. I was like, please, someone just
• 50:21
  killed. I was.
• 50:23
  I was gutted. We we never saw all those
• 50:26
  deaths. We never saw the death of
• 50:28
  Andrew, did we? He just walks away and then we
• 50:32
  suddenly find his corpse later on.
• 50:34
  The one potentially interesting character that probably the only
• 50:38
  one that I thought this, this is the thing with that they
• 50:41
  introduced him and I, I for some reason, possibly because it's
• 50:45
  similar to a character like Camel.
• 50:46
  So you, you know, I had it in your head somebody and then it's
• 50:49
  like, oh, he's wearing a purple leotard.
• 50:52
  I was like, that's not quite how I envisioned the character when
• 50:54
  he was first introduced. But right, yeah, I've, I've
• 50:57
  started thinking about other Doctor Who stories that are
• 51:00
  angry. Yeah, remember, sort of Daleks
• 51:02
  is angry, and he's angry about racism and it explores that the
• 51:08
  the Doomsday Weapon book is angry about consumerism and the
• 51:12
  future and politics, and absolutely you can see what it's
• 51:16
  angry about. Sun Makers is angry about the
• 51:18
  tax man. You know, he got a tax bill and
• 51:20
  he's absolutely slaughters it. This book is angry, but I don't
• 51:24
  know what he's angry about. Everything but the same acts of
• 51:28
  it. Like he's just an angry man.
• 51:30
  And yeah, I know I've done an interview with Steve Laws.
• 51:32
  He's the most plastic man I've ever spoken to in all my life.
• 51:35
  So maybe he's just having a bad period.
• 51:37
  He's actually. Admitted himself though, hasn't
• 51:40
  he, that if he took another pass at this book the the one of the
• 51:43
  key things he would do would be to cut down all the characters
• 51:46
  and a lot of the subplots they're in and merge them to
• 51:50
  make it a bit easier. The chapters as well, David,
• 51:52
  you're right, those are long chapters and I was sort of
• 51:56
  looking ahead going fuck me, this chapter's 40 pages like
• 52:00
  this is not a before bed chapter.
• 52:02
  I forgot I couldn't make any notes on chapter 3 because I
• 52:05
  couldn't make my mind up how it looked as a chapter.
• 52:07
  There's literally literally a blank space on my notepad where
• 52:11
  chapter 3 appears because I got so confused by the way I can't
• 52:16
  write this and read it at the same time or retain it in my
• 52:19
  head long enough. One thing I was thinking,
• 52:22
  because the style of how the chapters are laid out, there's
• 52:25
  usually page, page and 1/2 of a character.
• 52:28
  Then you flip to another one and it's almost like someone's got
• 52:31
  the remote control and the channel hopping.
• 52:33
  And it's like, is that a stylistic thing?
• 52:36
  Is that actually a deliberate choice to to kind of go, it's
• 52:39
  chopping so frequently and go if it is, it's not a good choice
• 52:43
  because you don't get a chance to relate to the characters.
• 52:46
  But I just kind of wondered if there was a it was intentional
• 52:51
  that you're just moving very quickly, chopping between all
• 52:53
  these different things. I mean, you could take that
• 52:55
  further then, couldn't you, And have an audience member as the
• 52:58
  narrative point in the book, watching and changing those
• 53:02
  channels and commenting on what's going on?
• 53:06
  It's missing the audience. I think that's if you're doing
• 53:09
  this satire on television, the television production, the
• 53:12
  audience, apart from Angelo and the bits in the 1st chapter, you
• 53:17
  need you need the audience. That was so good.
• 53:21
  Because if you're talking, it's used to keep the people in line,
• 53:24
  keep the people docile and everything.
• 53:25
  We don't see that beyond the 1st chapter.
• 53:27
  But then what can you do with it?
• 53:29
  Because it's then tied. There's a bit of it at the end
• 53:31
  when the TV goes off and everyone's like, what do we do?
• 53:34
  They kind of answer the question that Varus poses is what do we
• 53:37
  do now? Don't know.
• 53:38
  Well, we just go out and stop killing us or get murdered
• 53:41
  brutally and have a big fight scene in the final chapter.
• 53:45
  What's that all about? They all go outside.
• 53:47
  Oh, sunlight. They're all dead in a Halo
• 53:50
  bullet. I'm like, that's the end,
• 53:52
  really. Yeah, because because that
• 53:54
  because that that was exactly how I was thinking.
• 53:57
  Because like I said, I finished those final sort of three or
• 54:01
  four chapters today. But like the I quite enjoyed
• 54:06
  chapter 12 because you've got all that kind of the doctor
• 54:09
  communicating with AI. And I thought that was, that was
• 54:11
  quite, that was done quite well. And then all of a sudden he then
• 54:14
  start like, like, like we've alluded to, he then beats the,
• 54:18
  the, the AI, the, the, the date of war, whatever you want to
• 54:23
  call it to death with, with bludgeons it with the, with the,
• 54:28
  the hat stand from the TARDIS. And that makes you feel quite
• 54:31
  breathless and you're thinking it's all over.
• 54:34
  We've got this last chapter just to kind of like this is where
• 54:37
  they go kind of thing. And all of a sudden you, you're
• 54:41
  back into the killing again, you know, and, and, and it was like,
• 54:44
  Oh my God, this. And I, I kind of made this
• 54:47
  comment in the, in the, in, in our chat where what you know,
• 54:53
  they've jumped out of one frying pan into another frying pan, you
• 54:56
  know, kind of thing. And it and it and it all kicks
• 54:58
  off again and you've got. There's no hope for these people
• 55:03
  that's so grim. Yeah, yeah.
• 55:05
  The the way. Quite a grim book, the.
• 55:07
  Way I looked at it is that obviously, you know, they spent
• 55:10
  the whole book working against each other.
• 55:13
  Everything's gone horribly wrong.
• 55:14
  They then generally all the survivors from the, the, the
• 55:18
  satellite, it's almost like as soon as they all start working
• 55:20
  together, they kind of get things so get things sorted
• 55:24
  quite quickly or they it, it kind of sort of resolves the
• 55:26
  situation. So it was like, is that what
• 55:28
  they're trying to say? That a way, you know, once they
• 55:30
  stop fighting each other and start working together.
• 55:34
  But if that's the theme that it's not massively clear, I
• 55:37
  don't know. It's just when you get into a
• 55:39
  point in the book and you're going, I'm not entirely sure
• 55:43
  what the author's point is. Is he siding against television?
• 55:48
  Is he pro television? Because he's obviously not anti
• 55:50
  it because they bring it back. But it's controlled and it's
• 55:53
  regulated and it's regulated by Barry Whitehouse.
• 55:57
  And I just, I'm baffled by that as a, it's not presented in
• 56:02
  that, oh, this is risky or dangerous.
• 56:04
  It's kind of like this is the heroic end to the book.
• 56:07
  I'm very curious to know. I would love to know what the
• 56:10
  thought processes were it. Kind of feels like that being
• 56:14
  Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, doesn't it?
• 56:15
  Where all the hairdressers, bank managers and estate agents are
• 56:19
  sent off somewhere together and they're actually the only ones
• 56:21
  that have survived and they chose us.
• 56:23
  There is a swimming pool. You know, he just felt like that
• 56:26
  when he got to the end. It's like the people that you
• 56:29
  didn't want to be in charge probably shouldn't be end up
• 56:33
  being. And so have we really changed
• 56:35
  that much? Bit like vengeance on virus,
• 56:38
  right at the end of vengeance on virus, people that have made
• 56:41
  ugly choices, Mauldac, the governor, people that have sold
• 56:45
  out are left in charge of that planet.
• 56:47
  And you're going and the doctor goes, well, see you later.
• 56:49
  Good luck, everybody. You know, like really, you're
• 56:52
  keeping the planet with those people in charge.
• 56:55
  Maybe the whole point is we're supposed to feel a bit
• 56:57
  uncomfortable. It it just doesn't feel, it
• 57:00
  doesn't feel satisfying in an optimistic way, you know, And
• 57:04
  after all of that unrelenting violence, it would be nice to
• 57:08
  feel as if these people were in a good place.
• 57:12
  But I am with you, Dan. Though I do think once the
• 57:14
  doctor got involved in the action and what you said, David,
• 57:16
  when all the characters started working together, I, I thought,
• 57:19
  Oh my God, OK, this is actually coming together now.
• 57:23
  And the stuff with the date of all this thing that goes around
• 57:25
  gathering information in, of course, violent ways, that was
• 57:31
  really interesting as well. So I thought the sort of the
• 57:33
  last 50 pages minus the last chapter was actually very
• 57:38
  readable. And I tore through those pages
• 57:39
  quite quickly. But it it was a long time
• 57:43
  getting there because I kept putting this down, those bloody
• 57:46
  long chapters. Because that, that was one thing
• 57:49
  I was wanting to ask you guys because like we've all talked, I
• 57:51
  think like we all hit the book started well, then we kind of
• 57:57
  all hit a wall and then kind of struggled with it.
• 58:01
  And then, and then I think like, like you said, Joe, I, I, I
• 58:04
  thought it kind of then picked up a little bit with the last,
• 58:06
  those last 50, but there was still a bit, you know, because
• 58:12
  it is like vengeance Varus kind of dialled up to 11, isn't it?
• 58:16
  But but the body count is just horrendous.
• 58:21
  But but so So what point did did you guys hit the wall with with
• 58:25
  this book and kind of start struggling with with it?
• 58:29
  Chapter 2. Chapter 2.
• 58:31
  Yeah. So, so when we came away from
• 58:33
  Angela, or maybe it was Chapter 3, the second we came away from
• 58:37
  Angela and the doctor, and it was into the television stuff
• 58:41
  and I was just being introduced to one person after another
• 58:44
  after another, kind of ill defined.
• 58:48
  Yeah. And then I just was, my
• 58:51
  attention was just on too many things.
• 58:54
  And so I wasn't focusing. I wasn't giving enough attention
• 58:56
  to any one thing. So yeah, so very early for me.
• 59:00
  Oh. Wow.
• 59:01
  Yeah, same for me, Chapter 3. That's why it's blanking me
• 59:04
  nose, because I reread it about three times as well.
• 59:07
  Because I, I, I just wasn't taking in that many folk to the
• 59:13
  point of I've got, well, I've got to get through the rest of
• 59:15
  this now I'm just going to have to hope I recognize the names by
• 59:17
  going beyond this and just seeing if something jogged my
• 59:19
  memory backwards. Trouble was as well, some of the
• 59:22
  pastiches were so obvious at times, and I was just sort of
• 59:27
  rolling my eyes going, oh God, it's very, forgive me, but it's
• 59:32
  very virgin. They love.
• 59:34
  They're in these sort of meta, very Buffy the Vampire style,
• 59:38
  you know, references to TV shows and things like that.
• 59:43
  But it was so obvious at times. I'm like, Steve Lyons is a smart
• 59:48
  writer. He gave us Conundrum.
• 59:50
  He gave us the Witch Hunters. He gave us the Crooked World.
• 59:54
  He's a really good writer. He's not obvious like this.
• 59:57
  Normally, Head Games is a brilliant book as well.
• 1:00:00
  In fact, Head Games is as angry as this book, but about the new
• 1:00:04
  adventures themselves. And it is a scathing indictment
• 1:00:09
  of the new adventures through male's eyes.
• 1:00:11
  Yeah. But it has a point of view
• 1:00:12
  character, and it has something to say, you know?
• 1:00:16
  And the pot shots it's taking are at the very books that
• 1:00:19
  you're reading. It's really, really clever.
• 1:00:21
  Whereas all of the all of the references to TV shows and like
• 1:00:27
  JNT and science fiction isn't popular.
• 1:00:29
  And all of that was just lazy, I think.
• 1:00:33
  It's of it's time. I think it's very, you know, it
• 1:00:36
  can't help being a book written in 1995.
• 1:00:39
  But I think sometimes when people write these pathetic
• 1:00:44
  stories, you know, there's the famous story by Nigel Neal, the
• 1:00:47
  year, the year of the sex Olympics, written in 6869, which
• 1:00:51
  kind of always prophecies reality TV and the extent it
• 1:00:54
  goes. But you look at that and it's
• 1:00:56
  it's an old piece of television going, oh, look at the bits that
• 1:00:58
  you got right. You look at some of the stuff in
• 1:01:00
  this and you go got more wrong in terms of extrapolating where
• 1:01:04
  television might go. And I think that doesn't help it
• 1:01:08
  in the terms of sometimes science fiction writers will
• 1:01:10
  roll the dice and take a gamble on where will culture and
• 1:01:13
  society go in the future. And this is one where, you know,
• 1:01:17
  it opens, it says there's 16 channels.
• 1:01:20
  And. I think that's the first point.
• 1:01:23
  You go 16 and it's like maybe in 95 that was a lot, and I think
• 1:01:28
  really it wasn't. But you just said wish there was
• 1:01:30
  only 16 channels, David. There's that point where you go,
• 1:01:34
  OK, so yeah, it's it's very much of the time.
• 1:01:37
  And then it's references to think, OK, it's got references
• 1:01:40
  to prisoner cellblock H Well, that's the 1980s soap.
• 1:01:44
  So it's already, it's using old reference points as well, the
• 1:01:48
  next generation, the next generation.
• 1:01:52
  And so it feels a little bit. And then obviously it's 90s,
• 1:01:56
  you've got a hideous TV presenter and you kind of go, is
• 1:01:59
  it which of the many 90s television presenters is this
• 1:02:03
  meant to be a bit of a parody of?
• 1:02:05
  And it's. Anthea.
• 1:02:06
  Turner. I've got Anthea Turner in my
• 1:02:09
  notes actually, because wasn't. She awful.
• 1:02:12
  Well, they did. She did get blown up on live
• 1:02:15
  television in the 80s. There was, there's a I'll share
• 1:02:20
  it with you at some point. There's basically she was doing
• 1:02:23
  some live TV show and she was sitting on a truck where there
• 1:02:26
  was meant to be like some pyrotechnic effects, but she was
• 1:02:28
  sitting too close to it and basically it nearly blew her up.
• 1:02:31
  And that was around the same time that Noel Edmonds had a
• 1:02:35
  show. And remember, the public died
• 1:02:37
  the. Bundy Jump was it?
• 1:02:39
  Yeah. It was the Bundy jump.
• 1:02:40
  So I wondered if how much of that was informing kind of, you
• 1:02:44
  know, health and safety standards and what would people
• 1:02:47
  do behind the scenes and the unscrupulousness of television.
• 1:02:50
  So I wonder how much of that was kind of feeding in to say, what
• 1:02:53
  if those practices in television continued and actually got more
• 1:02:57
  and more dangerous? And then you end up on death on
• 1:03:00
  3000 where it's basically just snuff television.
• 1:03:02
  But that's such a old idea. The The Running Man and all that
• 1:03:07
  had been mentioned. It's how many TV shows have done
• 1:03:09
  that we're all going to watch a live hunt to the death.
• 1:03:13
  And it's, it's like, it's not an original idea.
• 1:03:15
  I don't think it's really all interestingly done here.
• 1:03:18
  We've four people on this call, right?
• 1:03:20
  Three of us are really intelligent, and I'm here as
• 1:03:24
  well. And.
• 1:03:26
  Not having that. None of us has managed to figure
• 1:03:29
  out what this book is about, and we've all read it like I think
• 1:03:35
  any one of those readings could have been possible.
• 1:03:37
  David, anyone? But it just had to be focused on
• 1:03:40
  it. And it it just wasn't.
• 1:03:42
  It spread whatever message they had amongst 30 people in this
• 1:03:45
  book and it was diluted into nothing.
• 1:03:49
  It didn't say anything. Is it almost I wonder what books
• 1:03:52
  came out before and after because you know, sometimes the
• 1:03:54
  TV series certainly in season 22 that because they had to read,
• 1:03:59
  you know, Eric Saywood as an Edison was working really hard
• 1:04:02
  having to rewrite certain scripts that other ones kind of,
• 1:04:05
  you know, 2 doctors probably needed some work, but it's like
• 1:04:07
  we'll leave Robert Holmes because he doesn't need
• 1:04:09
  rewriting. Probably did.
• 1:04:11
  It's like were the editors of the range kind of trying to fix
• 1:04:15
  like maybe an adjacent novel that they could have Steve Lyons
• 1:04:17
  he did conundrum. It's fine.
• 1:04:18
  And they didn't pay as much attention to go, Oh, it needs a
• 1:04:23
  bit of an. Idiot.
• 1:04:24
  That would be the most meta reference.
• 1:04:25
  Of all, wouldn't it? It does make you wonder because
• 1:04:28
  obviously the original concept for this novel was to have Mel
• 1:04:31
  in it. Now how would our from the?
• 1:04:35
  Planet to rock it. It was.
• 1:04:38
  Apparently. It was meant to be her
• 1:04:40
  introductory story, isn't it? It was like the one where the
• 1:04:44
  Doctor first met. But how would jolly hockey
• 1:04:47
  sticks Mel there in this novel? Yeah, she might have made it
• 1:04:52
  interesting. I I.
• 1:04:54
  Just can't see her in it. I can't see her in it.
• 1:04:57
  I. Suppose there is a billion to
• 1:04:58
  one chance that there is a peas pottage on Torok.
• 1:05:03
  It it might have been that whenever they lifted, you know,
• 1:05:05
  the the Nissan sphere lifted neo Tokyo wherever that maybe they
• 1:05:10
  did peace pottage instead or. Neo Peace.
• 1:05:14
  Pottage, Neo Peace Pottage. There's a whole bit with,
• 1:05:17
  there's a whole bit with Godzilla which is on the cover
• 1:05:21
  and it's like, OK, that could be.
• 1:05:24
  No, that's doesn't really add much.
• 1:05:27
  It's a bit of colour. The weird thing is the whole Neo
• 1:05:30
  Neo Tokyo being lifted up and Godzilla appearing.
• 1:05:34
  That's yeah, a story right there.
• 1:05:36
  You don't need the rest of it there around.
• 1:05:39
  I mean, I was expecting that Godzilla to be a big part of the
• 1:05:41
  book, given that's what got the cover right.
• 1:05:44
  That's on the bloody cover. Oh, that line.
• 1:05:47
  Did you hear that line? We went, Neo Tokyo is as
• 1:05:50
  Japanese as McDonald's. I was like, oh God, dear God,
• 1:05:55
  you've managed to offend three sets of people there.
• 1:05:58
  Well done. I remember that you said that.
• 1:06:02
  I remember that reading that line going, oh, I feel that
• 1:06:05
  that's, that's another thing that's rooting it in the period
• 1:06:07
  that it's written. And that that's, that's
• 1:06:09
  sometimes the challenge of science fiction as well, is that
• 1:06:11
  if you're reflecting where period you're writing, sometimes
• 1:06:15
  it becomes timeless and sometimes it just becomes dated.
• 1:06:17
  Can I just give a little bit of balance of there are two things
• 1:06:20
  in this book I did enjoy #1A reference to the Paracon
• 1:06:24
  Corporation from Paradise of Death when the Doctor tries the
• 1:06:28
  VR headset on, which I thought was very nice, and also the
• 1:06:32
  explanation for the Doctor's coat.
• 1:06:35
  Oh, hilarious. Yeah, being that it, it makes
• 1:06:37
  his face a bit faceless, so people don't recognize him,
• 1:06:40
  which I thought was genius. Nice try, Steve Lyons.
• 1:06:43
  But there's but there are little bits in there, like you said
• 1:06:46
  that needed to be teased out throughout this.
• 1:06:49
  Did you notice that Colin said, oh, I always say the actor's
• 1:06:52
  name, I don't know why, Where the 6th Doctor said a neat
• 1:06:56
  syllogism based on a flawed premise which is lifted directly
• 1:07:00
  from Trial of the Time Lord Pip and J Baker dialogue that made
• 1:07:04
  me chuckle. I mean, by the end of the book,
• 1:07:06
  right, he obviously he murdered people in various spectacular
• 1:07:10
  ways, right? And I almost felt like he'd
• 1:07:12
  like, Oh no, I don't know these other ways I wanted to kill
• 1:07:16
  people, but I've run out of page spaces.
• 1:07:17
  So he literally just writes 2 lines.
• 1:07:19
  He goes, some have been electrocuted, others crushed,
• 1:07:22
  decapitation, drowning, strangling.
• 1:07:25
  I was like, well, there you go. You've got every method of
• 1:07:27
  murdering somebody. In the book Eventually the
• 1:07:29
  shopping list of brutal death. Oh my God.
• 1:07:35
  But that that's another way to view this book though, isn't it?
• 1:07:37
  You could view this as almost a complete pilot for a series in
• 1:07:43
  isolation. You know, like when you watch
• 1:07:44
  pilots and there are lots of Perflos characters that appear
• 1:07:47
  in pilot episodes, it does kind of feel like that, that there
• 1:07:52
  might have been. And I think you actually think I
• 1:07:54
  said to her, listen to an interview of them and it
• 1:07:55
  suggests that there was going to be more after this.
• 1:07:58
  And then he suddenly realized you wouldn't have time to
• 1:08:00
  finish. It also broke killing ground to
• 1:08:02
  bring it all in. So it may be there might have
• 1:08:04
  been repercussions for this book that were never actually
• 1:08:08
  actualized somewhere. I.
• 1:08:10
  Mean from what I gather, the killing ground is a much more
• 1:08:16
  successful. Novel.
• 1:08:18
  Yeah, it's as violent as this, that it's as pointed as this,
• 1:08:24
  but it's just, I don't know, maybe had more time, maybe he
• 1:08:29
  had a better starting point, a better end point.
• 1:08:31
  I like, but by all accounts it's a more accomplished book than
• 1:08:34
  this. And also like, because because
• 1:08:36
  this, this was Steve Lyon's second book, wasn't it?
• 1:08:40
  So, but by by killing Ground, obviously he'd done a few few
• 1:08:44
  more what, 4-4 or five? Maybe Killing Ground was in
• 1:08:48
  spin? Meyer's done head games by then
• 1:08:49
  as. Well, yeah, yeah, but, but I
• 1:08:51
  mean, I think that's the thing, you know, by by killing Ground,
• 1:08:55
  he obviously was much more established writer.
• 1:09:00
  And I think, yeah, because that's the thing because because
• 1:09:03
  I've, I've, I've, I think this is the possibly the third time
• 1:09:09
  I've written read this, this book.
• 1:09:12
  And it's, it's funny. I, I kind of like kind of forget
• 1:09:16
  stuff from it and, and it then I don't know whether it's because
• 1:09:21
  it's so, so horrific, but but with the killing Ground, I think
• 1:09:24
  I've read that twice and, and there's so much of it that I can
• 1:09:28
  just recall vividly kind of thing.
• 1:09:30
  And I don't know whether I just think it yet stylistically
• 1:09:35
  probably is quite, quite brutal. It is quite violent, but it,
• 1:09:40
  it's got more direction to it. It's got more of a focus and
• 1:09:44
  therefore it's a much, it's a much better, better story, you
• 1:09:47
  know, but. But it's interesting though it
• 1:09:50
  also sidelines the Doctor for a chunk of it as well.
• 1:09:52
  Yes. Which is an interesting parallel
• 1:09:54
  between the two. Admittedly, not to the depths
• 1:09:57
  that time of your life takes a doctor out of the story, but he
• 1:10:01
  is incarcerated for a while. I'm not surprised you can't
• 1:10:04
  remember much of this book because there's just so much
• 1:10:06
  incident in this book and so little introspection that how
• 1:10:11
  could you? Nobody could remember all the
• 1:10:13
  incidents in this book. So much happens in those middle
• 1:10:16
  sections to to faceless, miserable people.
• 1:10:22
  Well, I think, I think that's also also also one of the
• 1:10:25
  problems is that, you know, we've highlighted how many
• 1:10:27
  characters there are in it. And I think if if you were to
• 1:10:32
  kind of ask me if what 1 stood out, I think there's probably 2,
• 1:10:37
  maybe maybe 3 and push. I wonder if it's the.
• 1:10:40
  Same. I wonder if it's the same for
• 1:10:41
  all of us. Yeah, Go, go on.
• 1:10:44
  You go first. Let's.
• 1:10:46
  All do, the two that stood out the most.
• 1:10:49
  So is is Giselle the the the the sort of the the second in
• 1:10:54
  command of the the then he was it was only because he's he's a
• 1:11:00
  dreadful character. But is it the the presenter?
• 1:11:05
  The one? Zee fam Zee Mantelli is it.
• 1:11:09
  Yeah, that's the one. And then I think that the next
• 1:11:13
  one is is the the guy that is an anjour that the the doctor meets
• 1:11:17
  in the, you know, the brutal game.
• 1:11:22
  Those are the only ones that really kind of stand out.
• 1:11:24
  So all even, you know, even reading this, this book in a
• 1:11:28
  period of like a week or so, I was, I was characters would pop
• 1:11:35
  up, then they would fade back into the background and then
• 1:11:38
  they'd pop up again. And I'm like go and and and I
• 1:11:41
  think we all were like this. We were going.
• 1:11:43
  Who? Who's that one again?
• 1:11:45
  Oh, that's. The security when Davis, when
• 1:11:48
  Davis sent us the screenshot of the wiki page, I was like oh
• 1:11:51
  thank God I was straight to wiki.
• 1:11:53
  Every time a new character came back I was like right, who's
• 1:11:56
  that? And they gave me a little
• 1:11:57
  synopsis. Oh handy, thank you.
• 1:11:58
  I forgot about them again, went back to the wiki.
• 1:12:01
  I shouldn't have to do that with a 22180 page book.
• 1:12:04
  No, no. To put a record mark, two were
• 1:12:07
  Mrs. Walker and Giselle. Those were the only two.
• 1:12:10
  Whenever they appeared, I absolutely remembered who they
• 1:12:13
  were. And Mrs. Walker and Angel,
• 1:12:16
  because at least they felt they had a bit of definition to the
• 1:12:20
  character. And I think with Angel, he's
• 1:12:21
  actually gets a fair amount of pages in one chapter because
• 1:12:25
  he's obviously facing off with the Doctor in the in the death
• 1:12:29
  sphere or whatever. So that kind of works.
• 1:12:31
  But there's also he's quite at the times I thought he was quite
• 1:12:34
  funny as well. So it's certainly enough to
• 1:12:37
  remember. And Angela are in the 1st 2
• 1:12:38
  chapters before she gets brutally, you know, there's and
• 1:12:42
  I think that's quite nicely done that the character's introduced.
• 1:12:44
  And then you genuinely do feel quite shocked that the
• 1:12:48
  character's killed off. But then this is it's not just a
• 1:12:52
  male shaped hole in this book. It's a companion shaped hole.
• 1:12:55
  You know, if you haven't got the Doctor on the screen, you need
• 1:12:59
  an identifiable character to keep you going.
• 1:13:01
  Because when we talk about the wall, for me even Chapter 3, but
• 1:13:04
  Chapter 7 where the doctor said the doctor's unconscious, but
• 1:13:08
  it's like there is there nobody in that whole chapter that I
• 1:13:12
  give. Sort of come to a Doctor Who
• 1:13:15
  book for the Doctor and the Doctor's companions, don't you?
• 1:13:18
  Like that's the thing that makes it unique.
• 1:13:21
  Or something or something unique about the myth.
• 1:13:23
  So either through the monsters or through the the culture of
• 1:13:27
  the series or the mythos or something and or guest
• 1:13:30
  characters who are interesting. And when you've got none of
• 1:13:33
  that, it was. That chapter was an absolute
• 1:13:35
  slog for me. It's a good point you make
• 1:13:38
  because I think that's where the characters that I remembered is
• 1:13:41
  Anjore and Missus Walker, because, you know, you think
• 1:13:47
  they're going to become friends of the doctor at some point and
• 1:13:49
  probably help in some of the resolution.
• 1:13:51
  But also for me it was Raymond Day, Yeah, because he was so
• 1:13:55
  down on his luck all the way flat.
• 1:13:57
  And then I can't. Remember.
• 1:13:58
  There were little touch points where he ends up beings up with
• 1:14:01
  a cell with the Doctor at one point.
• 1:14:03
  And you're like, that was fun style.
• 1:14:05
  Yeah. Oh, OK, I've thought.
• 1:14:06
  I do remember. And so I'm like, oh, he's
• 1:14:08
  obviously down on his luck and the doctor will pick him up and
• 1:14:10
  bring it. No, no, OK, OK, now we're just
• 1:14:13
  literally buses by the night here.
• 1:14:16
  And there was some happened does.
• 1:14:18
  Anyone remember who happened was?
• 1:14:20
  Is he? Oh, OK.
• 1:14:22
  Thank you. It was Anson Hammond, which I
• 1:14:24
  kept reading is Allison Hammond, and that's a different character
• 1:14:28
  entirely. Was.
• 1:14:29
  Hammond, the one that says gets the doctor into the office and
• 1:14:31
  goes, I'm just going to let you do what you need to do and I'll
• 1:14:34
  just sit back here. Yeah, and and I had like a
• 1:14:36
  strange connection with with her rifle as well, which wasn't I, I
• 1:14:43
  might have missed it. Wasn't it was there?
• 1:14:45
  It was there. I didn't understand it.
• 1:14:47
  But yeah, but another character that just kind.
• 1:14:53
  Of just a character that did stand out to me was Krill.
• 1:14:58
  I don't know how you say it. Space name virus, you know, I
• 1:15:02
  like the virus. Especially when he started
• 1:15:04
  talking. Yeah, yeah, I, I think that
• 1:15:08
  that's chapter 12, isn't it? Where?
• 1:15:10
  We can When it flips. When it flips to Angela.
• 1:15:13
  Yeah. And the doctor.
• 1:15:14
  Oh, hey. Well, that was clever, right?
• 1:15:16
  Because Andrew's been established, she's been killed
• 1:15:19
  in inverted commas. And then he's got a way of
• 1:15:22
  communicating and making it understand, you know, and a
• 1:15:26
  solution as well. Oh, tell my mother, yeah.
• 1:15:29
  Well, I suppose the solution is to beat the shit out of it.
• 1:15:32
  But, you know, like before that, he did have a go at, you know,
• 1:15:35
  reasoning with it. And lure in the TARDIS and then
• 1:15:39
  it's like, oh, you're an Android.
• 1:15:41
  For some reason it was reminding me of the final chapters of
• 1:15:43
  Original Sin where you've got the Doctor of the TARDIS and
• 1:15:45
  there's an Android containing an intelligence, although that came
• 1:15:48
  after this by a few months. It reminded me of transit
• 1:15:52
  because that's got an intelligent virus in it as well
• 1:15:54
  that's doing desperately unpleasant things to people and.
• 1:15:58
  I think there was a transit reference in there as well, very
• 1:16:01
  passing. I think they just mentioned the
• 1:16:03
  mass transit system that was no longer.
• 1:16:05
  There was definitely something about mass transit system which
• 1:16:08
  I was going to go. Is that a transit?
• 1:16:10
  Reference, to be fair to Virgin, because I am frequently quite
• 1:16:14
  mean. That's something they do
• 1:16:15
  brilliantly, is that they created that future history and
• 1:16:18
  there's things to cherry pick from those time periods
• 1:16:21
  depending on where you're set in the books.
• 1:16:23
  It's such a vividly depicted sort of time period that those
• 1:16:27
  books all share that different parts of it with each other.
• 1:16:31
  And that's it's it makes it feel cohesive.
• 1:16:35
  Yeah. So have we, have we got anything
• 1:16:41
  else to to say? I mean, you know, because like I
• 1:16:44
  know Gareth, you had a couple of positives there.
• 1:16:46
  Has anyone else got anything, anything positive to say?
• 1:16:52
  I. I did, like, I didn't like all
• 1:16:56
  the murder, but I did like how the doctor basically says this
• 1:17:01
  is no longer about saving everybody but preventing as many
• 1:17:06
  deaths as possible. I just thought that was a really
• 1:17:08
  interesting flip as to what you'd normally do with a Doctor
• 1:17:11
  Who story. Yeah, just the pace did ramp up
• 1:17:16
  at the end, you know it, And it did feel as if it was sort of
• 1:17:20
  steamrolling to a positive conclusion.
• 1:17:23
  It's just kind of a shame we didn't get one.
• 1:17:26
  Yeah. Because I think like of, of all
• 1:17:30
  the books that we've kind of gone through on our, you know,
• 1:17:33
  our little book club group, Yeah, yes, it was exhausting.
• 1:17:40
  And yes, there, there was perhaps much more gore and, and
• 1:17:43
  death than I would have, would have liked.
• 1:17:45
  But I think we've we've read worse by by, by a country mile
• 1:17:53
  that they've been worse, I think.
• 1:17:54
  I think you're right. I think The thing is that it was
• 1:17:56
  still a pleasurable reading experience.
• 1:18:02
  Yeah, I'm not sure I'd say it was pleasurable for me because
• 1:18:04
  those middle sections were trying, But I will say Steve
• 1:18:09
  Lyons can string a sentence together, which is a step up
• 1:18:12
  from Ericsson Ward, Nicholas Briggs, I, I.
• 1:18:16
  Would agree. I would agree with that.
• 1:18:18
  I think there's ideas, there's too many ideas, but there's some
• 1:18:22
  ideas and it just needed maybe another pass through the editing
• 1:18:27
  system. But it is definitely ahead of
• 1:18:30
  Dalek Generation by some way. I'm pretty poor in the power of
• 1:18:37
  Revelation because at least I know Revelation was allely
• 1:18:40
  written in places, but I still found it entertaining.
• 1:18:42
  I was overall, I don't hate this book, I just think it was just a
• 1:18:48
  slightly frustrating read. But but it's also got some
• 1:18:51
  interesting things to say, so it's not without merit.
• 1:18:54
  Would this book be improved if the catering for TV companies
• 1:18:59
  was coming from Cara's kitchen? From.
• 1:19:04
  Revelation of the Daleks, you know, chocolate covered locusts,
• 1:19:07
  something like that. I mean I will say the 1st
• 1:19:11
  chapter of this is one of the best things I think we've read
• 1:19:15
  at a book club. Like, that first chapter is
• 1:19:18
  superb and taken on its own. If that was the book, I'd say a
• 1:19:23
  10 out of 10. Great book.
• 1:19:25
  Yeah, unfortunately there's another, you know, 250 pages.
• 1:19:30
  I do like some of the little sides in it though that where it
• 1:19:32
  mentions the shadow of the valley yard every so often.
• 1:19:35
  Doesn't go in depth to, but just enough because.
• 1:19:39
  This is something they'd continued.
• 1:19:41
  If they'd done more and they'd built on that theme of the the
• 1:19:46
  Doctors that path, then that might be more satisfying that
• 1:19:49
  this is the sort of first chapter of potentially an
• 1:19:53
  ongoing 6th Doctor arc. But again, the missing
• 1:19:56
  adventures, like new adventures, they lost their license.
• 1:19:59
  So, you know, have they been able to continue?
• 1:20:03
  Would they have to be able to do more with this?
• 1:20:06
  I think I prefer the direction the PDAs take the 6th Doctor in,
• 1:20:10
  like in books like Business, Unusual Shadow in the Glass,
• 1:20:14
  Instruments of Darkness, where it's like the Doctor stepping
• 1:20:18
  out of the dark into the light, because it's so easy to do that
• 1:20:22
  with Colin's Doctor. We've done it since the Twin
• 1:20:24
  Dilemma. We've done it in 22.
• 1:20:26
  We've, you know, examined him to high heaven in 23 and come to
• 1:20:32
  the conclusion he's going to end up in a dark place.
• 1:20:34
  Like the Big Finish approach, I think is absolutely the way
• 1:20:37
  forward. It's better than the New
• 1:20:39
  Adventures approach, which is he was so bad the 7th Doctor has to
• 1:20:43
  murder him. No, Big Finish came to the
• 1:20:47
  conclusion recently in The last Day that the 7th Doctor was so
• 1:20:50
  evil he had to regenerate in the TV movie.
• 1:20:53
  I mean, why did we keep coming to these conclusions?
• 1:20:57
  Having said that about the 6th Doctor post trial, and this is
• 1:21:00
  the bit that I think I said when I did, my bit that I didn't
• 1:21:03
  quite feel very comfortable with was despite being put through
• 1:21:07
  the ringer by his own people for 14 episodes, he's doing missions
• 1:21:12
  for them now why? That does not fit.
• 1:21:18
  This is the guy who would rally against them, who would scream
• 1:21:22
  to the high heavens, dig his heels in.
• 1:21:25
  He wouldn't do a Patrick Troughton if you believe that
• 1:21:29
  post war games era, you know what I mean.
• 1:21:32
  And, and and he just sticks out like a sore thorn then.
• 1:21:36
  Well, he learns his trial, don't he?
• 1:21:37
  That they're blowing planets across the universe.
• 1:21:39
  He learns that they're using your car.
• 1:21:41
  They kill. Them off as far as.
• 1:21:43
  He's concerned, Hairy. You know that's he made his
• 1:21:45
  lovely speech about absolute power.
• 1:21:48
  That's right. But so why?
• 1:21:51
  Why is he just now accepting the fact Allah Tom Baker in the
• 1:21:54
  brain of Morbus that they're just going to send him on a
• 1:21:58
  mission to go and do their dirty work?
• 1:22:00
  Why? Why would he even get?
• 1:22:02
  What hold do they still have over him at this point?
• 1:22:05
  I think he's probably got, he probably has a good book here,
• 1:22:08
  but they it needed like another couple of drafts and a really
• 1:22:12
  strong editor to try and pull some of this stuff together.
• 1:22:16
  Yeah. Well, that's what you almost
• 1:22:17
  need post trial if you're going, if you're going to get rid of
• 1:22:19
  that sort of dark edge on calling, you need that one blast
• 1:22:22
  of a dark edge and then you go into the lighter stuff after.
• 1:22:25
  So to underwrite all of the trial of the Time Lord with
• 1:22:28
  something and then move on from it.
• 1:22:31
  Someone say if you're going, if we're going to do the post trial
• 1:22:34
  story, if we're going to deal with the bailiard, just do it,
• 1:22:37
  make that essential so that that could have been, you know, when
• 1:22:40
  they're in, he's in the death hunt, he's in the sphere, he's
• 1:22:43
  been hunted by Anjou. You kind of are they going to
• 1:22:46
  really, you know, properly is this where they're going to tap
• 1:22:49
  into the bailiard idea and everything?
• 1:22:50
  And it's mentioned a couple of times, but it's, you could lift
• 1:22:54
  those references out, yeah, and it wouldn't make any.
• 1:22:56
  Difference. You know all.
• 1:22:58
  We needed a missing adventure feature in The 6th Doctor
• 1:23:02
  written by Pip and Jane Baker, because they would have made
• 1:23:05
  Colin the hero of the piece and driven him into a bold, exciting
• 1:23:09
  new future. That would have been amazing to
• 1:23:11
  read. I know what.
• 1:23:14
  Time in the row now. It's incredible.
• 1:23:17
  Give give AI a few years and maybe one will be able to write
• 1:23:21
  a perfect Pip and Jane missing adventure.
• 1:23:24
  Although I'm not sure whether or not we should ask AI to try and
• 1:23:28
  create anything in the mold of Pip and Jane Baker, because God
• 1:23:31
  knows what will happen. Vaguely sexual, That's what the
• 1:23:36
  book would say. Well.
• 1:23:40
  Yeah. So is that all we've got to say
• 1:23:44
  about they are dumb? I think so we've wrapped it up.
• 1:23:48
  We've we've. I'm of our lives.
• 1:23:50
  Yeah, yeah. I mean, the best part of this
• 1:23:53
  whole book experience is that we get to come together and have
• 1:23:55
  the time of our lives on this call, you know?
• 1:23:58
  Exactly. Yeah, because that was a thing.
• 1:23:59
  Because like when I finished it, I was like, Oh my God.
• 1:24:03
  So yeah, I definitely needed the E3 boys to to kind of lift, lift
• 1:24:08
  me a little bit. Don't you worry the next time we
• 1:24:11
  come together. Well, I mean, you might hate it,
• 1:24:14
  but it's got far less characters and shorter chapters than this
• 1:24:17
  one. I think, I think what's quite a
• 1:24:20
  miracle is we've managed to do a whole discussion here on Time of
• 1:24:24
  Your Life and not one of us has broken into song.
• 1:24:27
  I've got no voice for it tonight.
• 1:24:29
  I've had the time of my life. Is that the song you meant?
• 1:24:35
  That's the song I meant. And I never felt this way
• 1:24:37
  before. Oh.
• 1:24:39
  Beautiful. Be beautiful.
• 1:24:41
  Oh, brilliant. We we can always count on Joe to
• 1:24:44
  break out in song. Badly, yeah.
• 1:24:48
  I shall never break out into song because I like you too much
• 1:24:52
  to inflict that pain upon you. Appreciate.
• 1:24:55
  It yeah my singing voices like some someone drag dropping a bag
• 1:25:00
  of spanners in the garage floor so yeah, I'll never never break
• 1:25:04
  out into song for you although. Of course, the four of us will
• 1:25:06
  be coming together to do Doctor in Distress Redux for Christmas,
• 1:25:10
  won't we? The charity album.
• 1:25:13
  It could do any No, no, no, no. It wouldn't be any worse than
• 1:25:18
  Band-Aid 40. That's true lyrics to that song
• 1:25:23
  and the canine computer. Anyway, sorry I have a pile of
• 1:25:28
  books here. Yes.
• 1:25:31
  So to, to, to finish off tonight, I, I, I've asked you to
• 1:25:35
  do something a little bit different for our, our top or
• 1:25:40
  bottom 3, depending on which way you went.
• 1:25:42
  We did have. Felt comfortable with what you
• 1:25:44
  asked us to do, so we chose our favorite Missing Adventures
• 1:25:47
  covers instead. There we go.
• 1:25:49
  OK. Excellent.
• 1:25:52
  You guys didn't bring it home. Yeah, so that was the thing.
• 1:25:57
  So we're told never to judge a book by its cover, but tonight
• 1:26:01
  we actually are going to judge books by that cover.
• 1:26:03
  So yeah, What? What are your top or bottom 3
• 1:26:07
  missing missing adventure covers?
• 1:26:08
  So where should we go? Go with you first, Joe.
• 1:26:12
  Oh good grief. Well, there is a bit of a theme
• 1:26:16
  to my three, and they've all got a fabulous pair of tits on each
• 1:26:19
  one of them. So first of all, I've got
• 1:26:24
  Burning Heart by Dave Stone and then obviously Perry's down
• 1:26:28
  there. Look, and may I say about these
• 1:26:30
  missing adventure covers, the the likenesses of the regulars
• 1:26:34
  are just staggeringly good. But I really love this one
• 1:26:38
  because it clearly tells you what the book is.
• 1:26:41
  And that is Colin Baker and Nicola O'Brien appearing in a
• 1:26:44
  Judge Dredd book, which is exactly what that is.
• 1:26:48
  And it's beautiful. That's that.
• 1:26:49
  Those are two of the best looking regulars on those
• 1:26:52
  covers. My second one second fabulous
• 1:26:56
  rack belongs to Elizabeth Sladen in the I believe computer
• 1:27:01
  generated system shock with it's got this fabulous CD disc with
• 1:27:07
  the monster reflected in it. Sarah James got a she's on a
• 1:27:12
  rifle or something because it's very pyramidism Mars.
• 1:27:15
  This isn't my original copy, I've realized, because I
• 1:27:17
  actually got Elizabeth Sladen to sign this the one time I met her
• 1:27:21
  at convention in Crawley, in my copy, which must be up in the
• 1:27:25
  loft somewhere. And all she said to me was that
• 1:27:28
  doesn't look anything like me. I went, yeah, it does.
• 1:27:31
  She went, no, it doesn't, and she signed it and came back to
• 1:27:35
  me. And that's the one interaction I
• 1:27:37
  had with her. And my third one is Managra by
• 1:27:41
  Stephen Marley. Wonderful picture of the man
• 1:27:44
  tearing off the faces. He's got several marks in his
• 1:27:47
  hand that absolutely tells you what the books about.
• 1:27:50
  And Tom Baker looking absolutely terrifying with his boggly eyes
• 1:27:55
  in the corner. They're rich Reds and oranges,
• 1:27:58
  very sort of Hinchcliffe. And so, yeah, that's my free.
• 1:28:02
  I think the missing event. I could have chosen three
• 1:28:04
  others. I think they're pretty much all
• 1:28:06
  great. Yeah, yeah, they're, they're
• 1:28:09
  very I because, because, I mean, obviously it's a small range of
• 1:28:12
  books, but they, it's the only range of Doctor Who books where
• 1:28:15
  they consistently had the same look all the way through the,
• 1:28:18
  the, the range. Yeah.
• 1:28:21
  Gareth, can you can you tell us your top three?
• 1:28:23
  Yeah, so this is top three in it #3 is the dark path.
• 1:28:29
  Yeah, again, these are all asked to Pearson ones, these ones.
• 1:28:32
  But you've got the wonderful picture of Roger Delgado and
• 1:28:34
  Patrick Crown, one of the best likenesses of trown I've ever
• 1:28:37
  seen, especially because it's not just a regular resting face.
• 1:28:40
  It's kind of pulling a bit of a grimace upwards.
• 1:28:43
  And this wonderful creature that kind of fits in with the ethos
• 1:28:48
  of that era. So that's my number three.
• 1:28:52
  My #2 then is Gwen. The color of monsters for me is
• 1:28:55
  Gwen, and it is the English way of death, which I still think is
• 1:29:01
  photo perfect. As a picture, I think it's
• 1:29:04
  absolutely wonderful. And whenever I think of the
• 1:29:07
  English way of death, it's just green, absolutely green.
• 1:29:11
  And my number one, which probably doesn't come as much as
• 1:29:14
  a surprise considering what I've been extolling the virtues of
• 1:29:16
  time of your life, is millennial rights, the wonderful Colin
• 1:29:21
  Baker in Vaillard garb. Oh, suits you, Sir.
• 1:29:26
  What is going on with Bill's hair?
• 1:29:28
  Right of Frankenstein hair and. Patricia Quid Energy.
• 1:29:33
  But even the smile that they've got for her is really good for
• 1:29:36
  the character. On that they like, say, Alistair
• 1:29:39
  Pearson's art. It's superbative, really is OK.
• 1:29:45
  David. Well, I I'm unfortunate unable
• 1:29:48
  to produce the books one because I didn't lift the particular
• 1:29:51
  ones off the shelf and also because there's a couple that I
• 1:29:53
  don't have. But the covers have always
• 1:29:55
  grabbed my attention. And I do think that not only the
• 1:29:57
  most consistent, they've got the same design, layout, the whole
• 1:30:02
  range. I think they are some of the
• 1:30:03
  most consistent, if not the most consistent range of artwork in
• 1:30:08
  any Doctor Who book. I think the the likenesses on
• 1:30:11
  almost all of them are spot on. I mean, half the time I'm never
• 1:30:16
  looking at that secondary image that's not really grabbing my
• 1:30:18
  attention. It's basically the Doctor and
• 1:30:20
  the companion. That's what usually was
• 1:30:23
  certainly picking up Doctor Who Magazine.
• 1:30:25
  What would draw my eye, what would make me be interested in
• 1:30:27
  this book? It would be the Doctor and the
• 1:30:29
  companion. However, like the top three, but
• 1:30:34
  in the number three, because even though I've never got the
• 1:30:36
  book, it always fascinated was Killing Ground because not only
• 1:30:40
  have you got 6th Doctor, you've got 6th Doctor and Revenge *
• 1:30:43
  Cybermen. And one of the reasons I still
• 1:30:46
  want to read that book is not because it's everyone talks
• 1:30:48
  about great. It is everything.
• 1:30:50
  It's just like there was that itch when I saw it.
• 1:30:52
  I could never find a copy. It's now easy to hold off.
• 1:30:55
  It's like it's a six doctor book with avenged style side meant.
• 1:30:59
  I just want to read that book and then.
• 1:31:03
  Oh. Gareth Ifnick 2 of mine.
• 1:31:07
  You're obviously a person of very good taste because to be
• 1:31:09
  honest with you, killing ground was nearly in mine.
• 1:31:12
  There was a dark circles under the six doctors eyes or.
• 1:31:15
  And dark path, and that's because it's Choughton and
• 1:31:19
  Delgado master and that's the oh, that's something different
• 1:31:24
  because one, it's usually doctrine companion, but then
• 1:31:26
  it's it's the master, It's a prequel.
• 1:31:29
  It's could and and this is the one where I said it's a book
• 1:31:31
  that by all accounts isn't white lives up to the hype.
• 1:31:36
  I think it people's views on it are a bit more mixed, which is a
• 1:31:40
  shame. I still if I couldn't, that's
• 1:31:42
  another one on my list to track down.
• 1:31:44
  I would just like to read it. It's it's there was that phase.
• 1:31:47
  I would see them. I couldn't really afford to get
• 1:31:48
  them at the time. And then they went out print and
• 1:31:51
  some of these are just like gold dust.
• 1:31:54
  But number one is millennial rights because six doctor as
• 1:31:59
  Valium. Now that one I have got that's
• 1:32:01
  on the shelf next door. But you know, you've got six
• 1:32:05
  doctor in that outfit. You've got that picture of the
• 1:32:08
  tower as well, and then metal, metal bushes.
• 1:32:12
  Is it Mellifier the the computer constructs that comes out with
• 1:32:16
  great intelligence and all of that.
• 1:32:18
  It's so striking. It's so bold and it really does
• 1:32:22
  stand out for you more than any of the books.
• 1:32:25
  But there are some great I even like the cover to Ghost of N
• 1:32:29
  Space. I don't really care for it, but
• 1:32:30
  I actually think that's got quite a nice cover as well.
• 1:32:32
  So even if the worst of the books has got quite a decent
• 1:32:34
  cover, the only problem is Paul, Ben and Polly have to share.
• 1:32:41
  Yeah. But they get more.
• 1:32:43
  They get more than Ian Chesterton does because he
• 1:32:45
  doesn't get one. Did anyone else realise that
• 1:32:47
  Chameleon on Crystal Bucephalus is a photograph?
• 1:32:50
  Is he really? Apparently so, yeah.
• 1:32:53
  Valentine is wiki chameleon. Lovely photo.
• 1:32:57
  A lovely one of Barbara as well on Venusian Lullaby.
• 1:33:02
  Gorgeous. Because I did try making a list
• 1:33:05
  of who got one and who didn't, and most most companions from
• 1:33:09
  the classic series got a cover. Notorious one's old she's she's
• 1:33:14
  like a. She's dressed in.
• 1:33:16
  Monoptra, what's going on there? Ian doesn't get one.
• 1:33:20
  Zoe doesn't get one. Teagan Teagan's not got one of
• 1:33:27
  them. Sounds of time.
• 1:33:30
  Oh, of course, yeah. Doctor gets in on one, doesn't
• 1:33:33
  he on cold fusion? Yeah.
• 1:33:34
  And where you've got Adric on there, I think.
• 1:33:37
  I don't think Leela gets one, but I don't think there's a full
• 1:33:40
  Doctor, no. No, there's not.
• 1:33:42
  Not until the past, Doctor. They didn't, did they?
• 1:33:45
  But Romana gets one and Shadow of Wing Chang was almost on my
• 1:33:48
  list as well. There's sort of Leela running in
• 1:33:50
  science fiction on the cover of that, but it's a little bit
• 1:33:53
  blurry and silhouette, so he can't really tell it.
• 1:33:56
  Sir, I want to know what dance choices are.
• 1:33:59
  Yeah, Okie dokie. Well, so coming in at 3 is one
• 1:34:06
  that David's just been the the shadow of Wing Cheong.
• 1:34:11
  I think like any any cover with Romano one in on it is is a win
• 1:34:16
  for me because I think Mary Tam is absolutely gorgeous.
• 1:34:20
  But there you go. You've also got, you know,
• 1:34:23
  you've got the 4th doctor there in his, his Google wide best
• 1:34:27
  pose. And who doesn't love Mr. Sin
• 1:34:30
  there with the, the 1930s Shanghai background.
• 1:34:34
  So, so for me that that was #3. Dan, can I ask you, is Mary Town
• 1:34:38
  the most beautiful person ever to appear in Doctor Who?
• 1:34:43
  I think she might be you. Know I think so I I.
• 1:34:46
  Yeah. She.
• 1:34:47
  Yeah, I mean, it's not she's. She's, you know when people say
• 1:34:50
  people have movie star looks, she had just had that, didn't
• 1:34:53
  she? Yeah.
• 1:34:54
  I mean, yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah.
• 1:34:59
  That big smile on his face when I.
• 1:35:02
  I'm lost for words thinking about it.
• 1:35:05
  So I I've picked a book that 2 two other people already picked
• 1:35:11
  Melania. All right, again.
• 1:35:14
  Oh, it doesn't doesn't Colin look brilliant in the
• 1:35:16
  Valleyard's cost? That is just that is just
• 1:35:19
  phenomenal. Then obviously, you know, as, as
• 1:35:22
  we've already remarked, the the Bride of Frankenstein sort of
• 1:35:24
  look for, for, for Mel you, you know, and then you've got that
• 1:35:28
  wonderful London sky skyline kind of kind of view for the,
• 1:35:35
  the, the middle picture. But even like, I think like the
• 1:35:37
  use of the colours as well for the little flashes on there as
• 1:35:41
  well. The orange just just looks
• 1:35:42
  really good with, with, with the rest of it.
• 1:35:44
  So it ties together really, really well.
• 1:35:46
  And then #1 Lords of the Storm by David A Mckinty.
• 1:35:53
  So these are all these are all Alistair Pearson books, which
• 1:35:56
  isn't surprising because he did 22 out of the 33 work with him.
• 1:36:01
  But with this, I just think it's a stunning, stunning likeness of
• 1:36:05
  both Telo and the 5th Doctor. I love the detail of behind the
• 1:36:09
  5th Doctor. You've got the inside door of a
• 1:36:12
  suntaran spaceship, as seen in the suntaran experiment, and
• 1:36:17
  you've got a links, a links style suntaran on the front.
• 1:36:19
  I mean, what's not to love? So yeah, that that's number one
• 1:36:22
  for me. Three non ALSA Pearson ones.
• 1:36:25
  I think I did, didn't I? Oh, I'm so sorry, Alastair.
• 1:36:31
  No burning hearts. Alastair Pearson isn't.
• 1:36:32
  It oh, is it? No.
• 1:36:33
  Well, it says MNE or the initial on the page.
• 1:36:38
  He had this little thing about putting.
• 1:36:41
  The people's names on. Yeah, yeah, I believe it is
• 1:36:44
  Alastair Pearson, that one. Nicola Bryan looks radiant.
• 1:36:48
  Look at her. Fabulous.
• 1:36:52
  I mean thou. Yes, it's understood mate.
• 1:36:54
  They're. Just beautiful covers.
• 1:36:56
  They are sexy as hell. I, I think that was the thing
• 1:36:59
  because, because this is obviously our first missing
• 1:37:01
  adventure and that's why I went with a question like that at the
• 1:37:04
  end, because, because it just felt like, you know, I mean, we,
• 1:37:08
  we could kind of talk about our favorite books, but a lot of the
• 1:37:11
  time we've already mentioned those in previous ones, you
• 1:37:14
  know, killing ground, etcetera, etcetera.
• 1:37:16
  So it just felt like it, it felt like a good time to let's, let's
• 1:37:20
  highlight the artwork because. Between us, I think we, we chose
• 1:37:24
  quite a lot of the missing adventures there.
• 1:37:26
  So there was a nice broad spread of covers for people to go and
• 1:37:29
  look at. David, can I ask you please,
• 1:37:33
  because I am going to ask you in the next episode, obviously to
• 1:37:37
  try and rouse the three of us and control us, you know, bring
• 1:37:42
  your whip. But what are we?
• 1:37:44
  Where are we going next? I'd like I do appreciate your
• 1:37:49
  assumption that I have got a whip, which OK, maybe I do, but
• 1:37:52
  that's a different story. I wonder your husband looks
• 1:37:57
  happy so much. I believe we're going to go and
• 1:38:01
  eat some Wasps. Sounds grizzly.
• 1:38:04
  And with the in in the interestingly titled Eater of
• 1:38:08
  Wasps, which when talking of covers, has probably one of the
• 1:38:10
  grossest covers ever given to a doctor book and.
• 1:38:15
  One of the most memorable from the entire range, isn't it?
• 1:38:19
  Of those black sheep ones. Is is is a good?
• 1:38:21
  I think it's. Of colors on it.
• 1:38:23
  Black sheep when certainly those later Edas black sheep did some
• 1:38:28
  fantastic covers. I mean, they're going to say
• 1:38:30
  that's memorable for being grim, but then that's it's memorable.
• 1:38:34
  So yes, we, we will be reading the 8th Doctor adventure, Eater
• 1:38:38
  of Wasps. So back to the EDAS.
• 1:38:40
  I thought, I don't want to sort of give any spoilers for that
• 1:38:43
  episode, but it did feature on Gareth's top ten of all time
• 1:38:49
  Doctor Who books, and it's the book that got me reading Doctor
• 1:38:52
  Who books. So if anyone's going to be
• 1:38:55
  negative, it may be the other side of the call.
• 1:38:57
  No, I it missed my top ten by about that much.
• 1:39:01
  It was in and then it went out. It came back in and then it
• 1:39:05
  dropped out again. So in out, in out.
• 1:39:08
  Shake it all about. It might not have figured in
• 1:39:13
  mind, but I do remember really enjoying.
• 1:39:16
  I love that that particular period of EDA, It was just so
• 1:39:20
  many good books. So I'm really looking forward to
• 1:39:21
  picking that one up again. Well, how do we bring this to a
• 1:39:24
  conclusion? Time of your life?
• 1:39:25
  Like do we have a bloody massacre and try and kill each
• 1:39:28
  other horribly? I think what we do is.
• 1:39:30
  Down. We tack, we tack, we tack on
• 1:39:32
  another sort of load of conflict, and just randomly all
• 1:39:37
  characters just start dying and, you know, and then they're all
• 1:39:40
  dead. And then Mary Whitehouse turns
• 1:39:42
  up and sorts it all out and the doctor goes off the end.