Latest / I Don't Know You / How a Message He Never Asked For Shaped Steven Lindenfelser's Spiritual Life

Transcript

How a Message He Never Asked For Shaped Steven Lindenfelser's Spiritual Life · I Don't Know You

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Matt.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a Jesus follower,
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: husband,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: father,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: son,
• 0:09
  and friend who is deeply curious about people's creativity and
• 0:13
  how we unleash our
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: unique talents onto a world that needs them.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Today, I'm joined by my friend Steven Lindenfelser.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: He's a deeply creative designer,
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: talented musician,
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: voracious reader,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: and loving father and husband.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about his creative process,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: fatherhood,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: and Dov Stajewski's greatest work,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Brothers Karamazov,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: which I still haven't read.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the conversation.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Where has this desk been?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: That desk,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: we found it on just Facebook Marketplace,
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: but I think it was like an art desk at a school.
• 0:50
  oh sick okay yeah it has like a slant to it it has a little bit
• 0:54
  of a slant to it
• 0:55
  yeah which it took me some time to get used to but then I
• 1:00
  really started liking it
• 1:01
  because like when I draw on my iPad I can just draw from my
• 1:06
  desk I also have the
• 1:10
  like this artboard over here but yeah how often do you use that
• 1:13
  artboard let's see
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: the slant on this
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 1:19
  and it's got like a pencil deal in there too It has a drawer as
• 1:22
  well Kind of stinks
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: when you open the drawer Ooh,
• 1:26
  it's got that like old school musk Like it got rained on maybe
• 1:30
  or something I mean,
• 1:32
  that's just the best though This one's That one looks like it's
• 1:36
  industrial Yeah,
• 1:37
  and this is from a company in France In Lyon I don't know how
• 1:43
  to pronounce it Lyon
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Lyon,
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: there you go
• 1:46
  and you can just barely make out the logo here but it was a
• 1:51
  cool mid-century they
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: made like drafting boards like my favorite like I love these these
• 2:00
  shelves that you have to like very mid-century super thin yeah
• 2:04
  yeah like it just
• 2:06
  looks and like the lighting on the back and everything I
• 2:09
  actually just installed I
• 2:11
  was gonna say that looks new that's what all this okay it's
• 2:14
  like how long was that
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: project
• 2:17
  I had to space it out over a couple days just because you know
• 2:20
  how it goes with the kids.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like distracted every 10 minutes.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I would do like one shelf a day.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sick.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I'm pretty happy with it.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I wish the lights were a little bit warmer.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because at night especially it's kind of like clinical looking.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's okay.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: At least you got this.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: You got that nice warm lamp up there.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some practicals in the room, you know?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if your dad would appreciate this space at all.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, are you kidding?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's got a little bit of a mid-century feel to it.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's eclectic enough in like a...
• 3:00
  like surgical enough way that it still feels super put together
• 3:05
  and I love how like
• 3:07
  it feels claustrophobic on some level because of all like the
• 3:11
  walls having
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: everything but then also at the same time
• 3:14
  it's like little pieces of you around and so it's like oh you
• 3:18
  got like the old
• 3:19
  tennis rackets you got like the old historical plate you have
• 3:23
  like all these random
• 3:25
  little tokens and totems of like stuff that you've designed or
• 3:29
  stuff that's
• 3:30
  inspiring you throughout the kind of creative journey yeah
• 3:36
  you're very perceptive
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: to pick up on all that what like
• 3:42
  when you are doing your creative work like do you need to be
• 3:45
  here or do you feel
• 3:47
  like there's a space that inspires you more than this space
• 3:53
  most of the time this
• 3:55
  is the place okay where the creative juices start kicking into
• 4:00
  gear because this
• 4:01
  wasn't like this is an iterative process from my understanding
• 4:05
  like this was this
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  SPEAKER_00: at your old place too
• 4:09
  no my at our old place all my posters were in our like little
• 4:16
  one car garage on the
• 4:18
  walls and then my desk was part of like the kitchen countertop
• 4:25
  okay which was kind
• 4:26
  of nice because it had the shelving would like separate the two
• 4:31
  spaces and I did
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: feel like I was in a separate space but
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a public space.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't your own.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was a public space, yeah.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was like the family room and the kitchen and the office.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was all just one thing.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like a 900 square foot single story little condo.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it was very small.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Was that up in Costa Mesa?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: That was in Capo Beach.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we were in Capo Beach for about a year and a half or so.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Dang.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: but this is kind of the dream.
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  I just drenched it in everything that I could think of that
• 5:12
  could inspire me
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  SPEAKER_01: creatively with a bunch of colors and car stuff all over the place.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Has it been more distracting than inspiring?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's never distracting.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of the sad part is
• 5:29
  when I walk in here every day I kind of get used to it a little
• 5:31
  bit yeah but it's
• 5:32
  nice to you know if I'm stuck on a certain project behind my
• 5:37
  desk I can just look
• 5:39
  to the left or look to the right and take a nap take it take a
• 5:43
  nap on the the
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  client sofa is that what you call it yeah just to get like
• 5:52
  quick inspiration and I
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: guess
• 5:56
  to answer your question more fairly there is too much to pull
• 6:02
  from in this room
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  sometimes like there's too many places like you get overwhelmed
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  by it yeah okay
• 6:08
  like there's I have you know like 20 books on typography 20
• 6:14
  books on design a bunch
• 6:17
  you know just like a bunch of old records laying around and all
• 6:20
  that stuff
• 6:22
  it's like where do I go if I'm looking for inspiration where do
• 6:25
  I go Pinterest the
• 6:29
  funny thing is that's the reality the reality is Pinterest for
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  the most part and if
• 6:34
  I'm really stuck then I'll kind of look around at my walls or
• 6:39
  open a book or
• 6:40
  something but I wish it was the other way around I wish I used
• 6:43
  the physical stuff
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: in my
• 6:45
  my office space a little more often to find inspiration but
• 6:48
  it's just so easy to
• 6:50
  type into Pinterest like looking for like one of the projects I
• 6:57
  was just finished
• 6:57
  up today actually is designing little wine cards so there's a
• 7:04
  market that's open in
• 7:07
  Austin Texas but they're doing some rebranding they have like a
• 7:10
  wine section in the
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: market and they needed
• 7:15
  like detailed wine cards of each one of their wine offerings
• 7:18
  those don't change
• 7:20
  that I mean that was what I was thinking like I feel like those
• 7:25
  would change like
• 7:26
  every other day which is good for me yeah because if I'm on you
• 7:29
  know if they hire
• 7:30
  me and keep me on retainer then it's like yeah I have it
• 7:33
  templatized already and I
• 7:34
  can just go amazing let's go yeah let's go so I I got the
• 7:40
  design down and cranked
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: out like 30 different wines and um
• 7:45
  anyways back to Pinterest that's kind of where I started like
• 7:50
  okay it's this size
• 7:53
  two and a half by three inches or whatever real small like what
• 7:56
  can I do with this
• 7:57
  tiny little just getting inspiration on like other cans bottles
• 8:02
  exactly okay well
• 8:04
  and it's like that's so specific to like are you actually going
• 8:07
  to have a book that
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: like
• 8:09
  talks about like bottles through the years that seems like a
• 8:14
  perfect use case for
• 8:15
  Pinterest because I don't think I have like a wine card book
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  although oh man this
• 8:24
  one pulls one out immediately I don't have it exactly but this
• 8:30
  there is a really
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  SPEAKER_01: cool
• 8:33
  the letter form archive and I'm still not entirely sure what
• 8:36
  they do okay but they
• 8:39
  where'd you find this I think this was like an Instagram ad
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  okay so not not too
• 8:46
  cool I mean it doesn't really matter it's it's uh this is cool
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  and another are
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: these all stickers
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: These are all travel stickers from Oh,
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: so you can take them out and you can put them on stuff Yeah,
• 8:57
  and that I didn't know that actually I thought it was just like
• 9:00
  a bunch of
• 9:00
  different designs Yeah Look at how cool that is Yeah Just for
• 9:03
  those That's really
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: cool Very cool But yeah,
• 9:08
  you can peel each one of these off and like put them on your
• 9:11
  suitcase I love that
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  but traveling I would find like stickers to all the countries
• 9:17
  that we were at and
• 9:18
  like the gift shops or whatever yep and then put that on my
• 9:22
  suitcase so I have a
• 9:24
  bunch of random countries and then they've fallen off since
• 9:26
  then but oh bummer that
• 9:29
  kind of stuff is so cool to me I would love to see that
• 9:32
  collection that you it's
• 9:33
  really beat up now yeah okay it's uh my favorite sticker is uh
• 9:38
  have you been to
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  SPEAKER_00: Germany
• 9:39
  yeah you know how the stoplights that's not like a hand it's
• 9:46
  like a little man like
• 9:48
  I don't remember that actually that's like a little red man and
• 9:52
  then a little green
• 9:53
  guy and the green guy is like walking the red guy is like kind
• 9:56
  of like stop
• 9:58
  um but he's called ample man nice that's so awesome um I have
• 10:03
  like uh the direction
• 10:05
  that I like move my um suitcase is the little green ample man
• 10:12
  and then when I stop
• 10:13
  it's on the other side it's a little red ample man that is so
• 10:18
  cool I love that
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: super random and you found those stickers
• 10:23
  yeah I mean in whatever tourist shop in Berlin we were at I
• 10:27
  think over by the
• 10:31
  Brandenburg gates so super random but just really and like a
• 10:36
  very very touristy
• 10:38
  place but where were you specifically in Germany we only went
• 10:42
  to Berlin we only
• 10:44
  spent time there originally we were going to go to more places
• 10:48
  in Germany but then
• 10:50
  basically as the trip evolved we changed our agenda and we
• 10:55
  spent like two months in
• 10:56
  Croatia because it was just like the best and then that kind of
• 10:59
  like ate through
• 11:01
  some of the time that we were gonna spend in Germany because we
• 11:05
  were gonna go to
• 11:06
  like Cologne and a couple other places but then didn't like
• 11:12
  Nuremberg I think and
• 11:13
  then didn't end up we basically just stayed in Berlin which was
• 11:16
  still incredible
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: it's a really cool cool country
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of appreciate that more where you
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you stay in a place,
• 11:25
  you have more of an opportunity to really soak up the culture
• 11:29
  and the lifestyle.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I can't pretend to be like, oh, I lived there.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like two months is not that long,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: but it really was,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: we just felt so settled and like it was so,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 11:42
  when you're running around everywhere and going to different
• 11:44
  countries all the
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: time,
• 11:45
  it was so nice to like slow down and be in a place for a while
• 11:50
  and get to know the
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: people at the bakery or whatever.
• 11:54
  um like have your kind of routine of going on a run and jumping
• 11:58
  in the ocean or
• 11:59
  whatever it was um yeah it seems a lot more romantic than it
• 12:02
  was there were
• 12:03
  definitely like boring days where it was just like okay I'm
• 12:06
  ready to be back on the
• 12:07
  road um but I think it was such a nice way to like kind of slow
• 12:11
  down our nervous
• 12:12
  system from being on such high alert all the time running
• 12:17
  around to different
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: places
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Was it Shelby that wanted to stay in one place more?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Were both of you...
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Originally we had chosen to...
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was in Croatia that we redid the back half of our trip basically.
• 12:34
  Originally we were going to go to a bunch of different
• 12:36
  countries on the second half
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: of the trip that we didn't end up going to.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up changing a lot of our trip around.
• 12:45
  in Croatia because we had more time to kind of think about what
• 12:48
  we wanted to do and
• 12:48
  where we wanted to go I don't know if it was her or me that was
• 12:54
  like let's stay
• 12:55
  like I think it was both of us mutually because we just had
• 12:58
  such an incredible time
• 13:00
  in Croatia and we didn't even like go anywhere else other than
• 13:03
  the one place that
• 13:04
  we stayed in Dubrovnik yeah we didn't see the rest of Croatia
• 13:09
  so we really want to
• 13:10
  like go travel the rest of Croatia but I think there were so
• 13:13
  many variables that
• 13:14
  like made that time super special like the second day that we
• 13:19
  were in Croatia we
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: went for like a day trip to Montenegro and it was like
• 13:24
  such a stressful crazy day and it was awful and then we were
• 13:29
  like oh my gosh we
• 13:30
  love Croatia so much because we just had such a bad time in
• 13:33
  Montenegro yeah we yeah
• 13:37
  we went with some of our friends but then like the bus that we
• 13:39
  were going to take
• 13:40
  back didn't show up and so we had to take like a taxi with a
• 13:44
  guy that didn't speak
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: any English oh man and then
• 13:48
  we were like what is happening like nobody in the world knows
• 13:51
  like where we're at
• 13:52
  or where we're going and then we like there was like some
• 13:57
  misunderstanding at the
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: border and then like we finally got back like way later
• 14:02
  um yeah it was just like it sounds like a mess it was a
• 14:06
  nightmare but it was we can
• 14:08
  laugh about it now but I think it like solidified how much we
• 14:12
  loved Croatia and
• 14:13
  then we ended up going to going back to Montenegro after that
• 14:16
  two months in Croatia
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: um and it was better that time it was much better but it was also like
• 14:24
  I sort of feel like our view of Montenegro was tainted because
• 14:29
  of like that first impression.
• 14:32
  It was still really incredible but like because of our insane
• 14:37
  like almost idealistic romantic
• 14:40
  hyper like real time in Croatia we were like oh I don't know
• 14:45
  like Montenegro is
• 14:46
  just not that great because we were there for like a couple
• 14:48
  weeks and it was just
• 14:51
  like really boring and we didn't do anything yeah so like there
• 14:57
  was definitely
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: great stuff that came out of that I met
• 15:03
  we met up with some friends from school and then we met this
• 15:05
  other guy and then
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: like the beginning of this month I met that guy again whoa like
• 15:12
  we didn't know that we were gonna be at this conference
• 15:15
  together and then we just
• 15:16
  saw each other across the room after like four years and the
• 15:19
  first time I met him
• 15:20
  was in like a different country and then he's he's sitting
• 15:24
  across from me with his
• 15:25
  wife that like she wasn't on that trip but we knew who she was
• 15:29
  because he brought
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: like a big poster of her face
• 15:34
  like they were supposed to do like a couples trip or something
• 15:36
  but she couldn't
• 15:37
  make it because they were they were stationed in Iraq at the
• 15:41
  time they work for
• 15:43
  Samaritan's Purse and so they were all stationed in Iraq but
• 15:48
  she couldn't make it
• 15:49
  because she was stationed in Ukraine or something during like
• 15:51
  the beginning of the
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: war basically and so
• 15:56
  they had brought like a big blow up like cardboard cutout to be
• 16:01
  like oh you're on
• 16:02
  the trip with us and so like I recognized her first from the
• 16:06
  cardboard cutout like
• 16:08
  at the beginning of this month and I was like oh my gosh this
• 16:11
  is wild like wow this
• 16:13
  is weird because we hadn't seen each other since we were
• 16:17
  hanging out in a different
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: country four years ago or whatever that is so wild yeah
• 16:23
  yeah but anyway all that to say you have a cool office hey
• 16:29
  thanks um yeah I'm super
• 16:31
  super excited and grateful that you're willing to open up your
• 16:35
  home and allow
• 16:36
  absolutely me into it and uh record this conversation and uh
• 16:41
  anytime your parents
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: just for the record your parents are my next story neighbors yes so
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: We get each other's mail when we're out of town Yeah,
• 16:51
  you take out the trash cans I take out the trash cans Have they
• 16:54
  done anything for
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: you though?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh yeah What?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are you kidding?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Your mom brings over treats for the boys Almost,
• 17:04
  I mean I would say at least once a month She remembers every
• 17:08
  single one of our
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: birthdays Well yes,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: that's true Yeah,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: she's incredible with that kind of stuff Yeah,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: she's got a mind like a steel trap
• 17:16
  yeah just if you wanted to forget something just never tell her
• 17:19
  never tell her yeah
• 17:20
  yeah I know I could see how that could be like a superpower but
• 17:24
  then also like you
• 17:26
  know like a villain power too yeah yeah she uses it for good
• 17:30
  and not for evil yeah
• 17:31
  thank god for that right yeah that's really funny it's always
• 17:35
  interesting to like
• 17:36
  hear other people describe my parents because I like have my
• 17:40
  own view of them um
• 17:43
  that could be an entire podcast yeah well I feel like that's
• 17:48
  part of my line of
• 17:49
  questioning in this podcast is like obviously you're a parent
• 17:55
  and so much of like I
• 17:57
  don't know my introduction to you as a person is through your
• 18:00
  creativity like I
• 18:02
  don't even I think I met you when you guys moved in so it's
• 18:06
  kind of a nice segue
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 18:07
  into my questioning perfect because like you you were just my
• 18:14
  parents neighbor and
• 18:16
  then sort of like all these connections started kind of
• 18:21
  blossoming from that
• 18:23
  because it was like oh okay like your sister went to school
• 18:25
  with my wife and like
• 18:28
  they knew of each other in high school and then like oh you had
• 18:32
  been you had
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: graduated a few years before that and then like
• 18:36
  kind of through that connection it was like okay I'm more
• 18:39
  intrigued about this guy
• 18:40
  and then the Abby and Josh connection too yeah yeah and then a
• 18:44
  couple of our
• 18:44
  acquaintances are like best friends with your sister and so it
• 18:49
  was like okay these
• 18:50
  people are like validated almost by these other connections
• 18:53
  that we have yeah and
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: then it was like oh I'm just intrigued by like
• 18:58
  oh cool he's got like an old Defender that's like or an old
• 19:02
  Range Rover that's like
• 19:03
  really interesting and I thank you thank you sorry that's I
• 19:07
  shouldn't be making
• 19:08
  those criminal mistakes I would have corrected you don't worry
• 19:12
  thank you thank you
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: you always have the free will like you can always do that um
• 19:18
  and then yeah just like the I don't know the creativity that I
• 19:22
  felt like was kind
• 19:24
  of it almost like sonar just kind of beeps out of you for lack
• 19:29
  of a better analogy
• 19:30
  where it's like I feel like just hanging out with you you can
• 19:35
  tell that like you
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: are a deep thinker but also like
• 19:40
  kind of taste make in a way that like oh yeah I want to be
• 19:43
  around like interesting
• 19:44
  art and interesting people and so I was like oh these are all
• 19:48
  just very intriguing
• 19:49
  things to me and I want to spend more time with this guy and so
• 19:54
  I'm very grateful
• 19:54
  that you've allowed me to do that no likewise right back at you
• 19:58
  and on the deep
• 19:59
  thinking note I've always kind of had that like Socratic
• 20:05
  mindset always asking
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: questions and
• 20:08
  you know following my curiosity and your I knew I was like man
• 20:15
  this is such a
• 20:16
  blessing having the Heislers next door because your parents
• 20:20
  invited me over for
• 20:21
  dinner because you guys will get together most Sundays and you
• 20:24
  and your brothers
• 20:25
  were there and I just had set I remember telling my wife Hannah
• 20:29
  afterwards like
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: that was so fun that that was
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Coming out of a time where our firstborn son was like a year and a half,
• 20:39
  I lost touch with most of my guy friends and hadn't had like an
• 20:45
  adult conversation
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: in that year and a half,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: maybe even before that.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then...
• 20:52
  to be invited over to just like Sunday dinner you guys do this
• 20:56
  all the time nothing
• 20:57
  special and like just the conversations that were happening and
• 21:02
  the different
• 21:02
  personalities of the brothers and the and their wives I mean it
• 21:07
  was just such a
• 21:08
  good time and a good atmosphere and I yeah the the in the deep
• 21:12
  thinking too I mean
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was just like drawn into that and your brother one of your brothers
• 21:19
  I cannot believe that you have not like officially I guess you
• 21:24
  must have met him
• 21:25
  that night but he must be the opposite of you though socially
• 21:30
  you would think but I
• 21:31
  think like growing up he was a lot more introverted but he's
• 21:34
  pretty social now like
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: he's got his own community he's got his own like
• 21:40
  close friend group and stuff but he through and through I feel
• 21:44
  like you guys are
• 21:45
  kindred spirits on so many levels because you guys are both
• 21:49
  intellectuals and deep
• 21:50
  thinkers and curious and voracious readers and I mean the list
• 21:56
  can go on but and
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: like musicians and all that kind of stuff where it's like
• 22:01
  Man i cannot believe that you guys haven't like i know it's
• 22:04
  weird that like i'm
• 22:05
  friends with you it's like it makes more sense for you to like
• 22:09
  somehow be friends
• 22:10
  with ian um yeah hopefully one of these days but well he'll be
• 22:14
  back for like a
• 22:15
  month um in like a couple weeks and he'll be staying over there
• 22:20
  so yeah um however
• 22:21
  i can help set up a date so you guys can that would be great a
• 22:25
  little mandate
• 22:26
  yeah I yeah it's just it's funny each one of the Heisler
• 22:31
  brothers is has such a
• 22:34
  unique personality and then it's almost like when all three of
• 22:39
  you are together
• 22:40
  it's such a complete human being you guys are like unstoppable
• 22:46
  wow but yeah I was
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: back to that that night I was just so impressed at like
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: You guys love to read and your family is centered around,
• 23:00
  well maybe not centered but a very important aspect of your
• 23:03
  family is having these
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: conversations and being well read Andrew is not well read Andrew is not?
• 23:13
  No And it's great because I can say whatever I want about
• 23:16
  Andrew because he'll
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: never listen to this Perfect,
• 23:19
  yeah Actually if there's anything you want to get off your
• 23:21
  chest right now about
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 23:23
  it's mostly that he doesn't listen to this But just the
• 23:31
  curiosity to ask those
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: deeper questions Like discover truth And along the topic of books,
• 23:41
  you recommended that I read Count of Monte Cristo And I had no
• 23:45
  idea what I was
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: signing up for
• 23:47
  because it was like 2,000 pages yeah it was crazy yeah it was
• 23:51
  so good it's one of
• 23:53
  my favorites and it is incredibly long Maddie is reading it
• 23:57
  right now for her book
• 23:58
  club but wow that is a book club book well it's like a book
• 24:02
  club of these super
• 24:04
  intellectual like we've hung out with them at like different
• 24:08
  parties and you've met
• 24:09
  some of them you met them at Verena's birthday party I think
• 24:13
  some of them like
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Olivia
• 24:15
  and Levi and Levi is not in the book club but yeah he's a deep
• 24:21
  thinker yeah yeah
• 24:23
  but it's all those people but like I just I think it's so funny
• 24:28
  that I always
• 24:29
  remember that the Count of Monte Cristo is like he was paid by
• 24:34
  the word so it's
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: like oh of course you're going to make it like incredibly long yeah
• 24:41
  oh I did not know that yeah like it came out as a serialized
• 24:44
  like newspaper book oh
• 24:47
  that's right that's right yeah so it's just like really funny
• 24:51
  because it's an
• 24:52
  amazing book still yeah but he was really incentivized to like
• 24:55
  to like make
• 24:56
  probably make it way longer than it could have been that is
• 24:58
  hilarious yeah that
• 25:00
  makes sense did we recommend that book at that dinner no but
• 25:03
  you privately
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: recommended it to me somewhere somewhere
• 25:07
  for some reason I can't remember why and then we were supposed
• 25:10
  to have my wife and
• 25:12
  I were supposed to have after I finished it a Count of Monte
• 25:17
  Cristo date night at
• 25:20
  home where we make a nice dinner maybe like a flank steak kind
• 25:23
  of dinner she
• 25:24
  betrays you you go to prison for 15 years that too yeah we
• 25:27
  reenact the whole thing
• 25:29
  15 years later once I break free yeah your sons don't even know
• 25:32
  who you are and
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: jump off that cliff
• 25:35
  my sons don't know who I am but it's all part of the date night
• 25:38
  then we watch the
• 25:39
  movie ooh okay yeah cause I hear the movie's pretty good you
• 25:43
  didn't do it?
• 25:43
  we didn't do it we never got around to it oh we just watched
• 25:46
  the movie like um
• 25:48
  probably oh it's gotta be like last week whoa because Matty was
• 25:53
  reading the book
• 25:54
  and it's just like oh it's the best it's so good man you're not
• 25:58
  like a movie guy
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: though no I love movies where did you get that?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: when's the last time you watched a movie?
• 26:05
  okay I mean that's not fair though because I for the longest
• 26:10
  time before kids I
• 26:11
  would go to the movies by myself yeah yeah I had yeah I've only
• 26:15
  went been to one
• 26:16
  movie by myself and it was like the most spiritual experience
• 26:19
  ever it's incredible
• 26:20
  it was amazing nothing like it if you you just find that spot
• 26:24
  where no one's gonna
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: bother you yeah
• 26:26
  that's just like a it's a power move too it really is yeah
• 26:30
  because it's like I'm
• 26:30
  confident enough to do this by myself yeah that's why it took
• 26:33
  me like 25 years to
• 26:35
  do it or whatever this may be a social taboo however I'm
• 26:39
  leaning into it I do not
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: care yeah I do not care
• 26:43
  Well talking about books is a good segue into kind of the
• 26:47
  questions that I have for
• 26:48
  you mostly around like creativity in your process and like how
• 26:52
  you kind of work
• 26:53
  through that with fatherhood but and this is a book that I
• 26:56
  haven't read yet but you
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: have everybody in my life has sung the praises of Brothers K and
• 27:03
  I have not read it yet and I've been debating back and forth
• 27:06
  whether I listen to it
• 27:07
  or whether I read it first and I feel like I need to read it
• 27:10
  first so that I can
• 27:11
  really soak in it but it's going to take me like 10 years
• 27:13
  because it's also a
• 27:14
  really long book from my understanding yeah but I wanted to
• 27:19
  start with this quote I
• 27:21
  think this from how do you say Alyosha uh-huh that's how I said
• 27:26
  it in my head okay
• 27:28
  I think that's right I think that's right This is maybe if Ian
• 27:31
  does Ian does listen
• 27:32
  to these so he might be this might be sacrilege on some level
• 27:36
  because I haven't
• 27:36
  read it but I'm gonna quote it Oh no okay Because I kind of
• 27:40
  want this to like theme
• 27:42
  some of the conversation but he's I don't know exactly the
• 27:48
  context of this so maybe
• 27:50
  you can you can fill me in on that I hope so but I was like I
• 27:55
  have to mention
• 27:55
  Brothers K because I feel like we talk about that whenever we
• 27:59
  talk about books in
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: general
• 28:01
  but Alyosha says you must know that there is nothing higher or
• 28:06
  stronger or more
• 28:07
  wholesome and good for life in the future than some good memory
• 28:11
  especially a
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: childhood memory of home and I was just thinking about like
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: if home is like creativity or kind of curiosity,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: these things that like kind of come up with us as we grow,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm curious to that as a theme for a lot of the questions I have.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love that quote that you picked.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: What is happening in the story at that point?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can only guess.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's been...
• 28:47
  This book means a lot to me so let's not forget that but it has
• 28:52
  been a while I'm
• 28:56
  gonna take a leap here and guess that he's talking about
• 29:01
  because a big theme of
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: this book is the suffering of children and
• 29:07
  Dostoevsky attempting to grapple with the suffering of children
• 29:17
  which seems
• 29:18
  meaningless to us or to most people I would think me especially
• 29:22
  and I think this
• 29:25
  quote about how important it is like your childhood and the
• 29:29
  home that you grow up
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: in because these memories
• 29:34
  shape you and they're also safe places to go to when life gets
• 29:38
  tough yeah in the
• 29:39
  future because it will get tough yeah there's a vault of of
• 29:43
  kind of things you can
• 29:44
  look back on exactly to help you deal with stress or I mean
• 29:49
  it's it's so topical
• 29:50
  like at this very moment right now with with my two boys who
• 29:55
  are four years old and
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: one years old
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because the four-year-old,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: especially,
• 30:02
  his emotions are developing and he gets flooded with these
• 30:07
  emotions and they don't
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: know how to filter it at all yet.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it just hits them all.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So they have these big crying tantrums and it's part of our job,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: my wife and I,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: to teach them how to regulate their emotions and help them calm down.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually those
• 30:28
  hopefully positive memories they can apply later in life yeah
• 30:34
  they're creating a
• 30:34
  lot of positive memories right now yeah but the problem is that
• 30:38
  as parents we're
• 30:39
  not perfect either so there's some days where well that's
• 30:42
  literally every parent
• 30:44
  ever yeah which there's something comforting about that too I
• 30:49
  think parenting must
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: be a second childhood because we're relearning
• 30:55
  we're going through brand new experiences as if we were a child
• 30:58
  totally but you
• 30:59
  have all those filters applied to your life the the baggage the
• 31:03
  good and bad all of
• 31:05
  those things kind of the chemical cocktail of like life that's
• 31:10
  happened to you up
• 31:11
  until that point exactly which is really yeah that's
• 31:14
  fascinating yeah that that is
• 31:18
  yeah that's interesting but as far as I do wonder what one of
• 31:23
  the the biggest
• 31:26
  the main things I remember specifically about Alyosha and his
• 31:32
  brothers Dimitrov and
• 31:36
  Yvonne yeah those are the three brothers are the conversations
• 31:41
  between Alyosha and
• 31:42
  Yvonne okay because I resonated so much with Yvonne like some
• 31:50
  of his arguments
• 31:52
  and they were talking about again like the suffering of
• 31:55
  children and Yvonne is
• 31:57
  basically saying if God is good why are children suffering yeah
• 32:05
  super valid
• 32:05
  question and even the point he makes like even if the end
• 32:10
  result of this of like
• 32:13
  this fallen world this wicked world sin suffering seems
• 32:17
  senseless but even if you
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: believe that there is a reason for it
• 32:23
  he doesn't want to believe in a God where we eventually get to
• 32:27
  this perfect
• 32:27
  peaceful place however the price to get there was the innocent
• 32:31
  suffering of all
• 32:32
  these children and not just children like human beings in
• 32:37
  general and that one I
• 32:41
  was because you know having young kids I was like that was
• 32:46
  really challenging my
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: faith and
• 32:52
  which is funny because today it led me to have asking those
• 32:57
  questions and being
• 32:58
  somewhat dissatisfied with God at the time because of the very
• 33:07
  same issues that
• 33:07
  Yvonne brought up have actually led me to have a stronger faith
• 33:11
  today and I didn't
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: get an answer if that makes sense there wasn't like a clear
• 33:21
  there are answers to that question like if you have faith and
• 33:26
  if you're a Christian
• 33:28
  there are answers but it's always going to be a tough pill to
• 33:34
  swallow because the
• 33:35
  reality is that these kids are suffering and yeah Yvonne's
• 33:40
  point was like I don't
• 33:40
  want to even sign up for a type of faith where these people
• 33:45
  have to suffer to get
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: to this paradise at the end of it all
• 33:51
  and um yeah maybe another we'll have to do another podcast on
• 33:55
  on how I got here
• 33:58
  even though um that's still such a dissatisfying thing in my
• 34:02
  mind but um yeah
• 34:05
  anyways that that those conversations between Yvonne and
• 34:08
  Alyosha stick out to me a
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: lot and then Alyosha's tendency to
• 34:17
  instead of shaking your fist at God and saying well
• 34:20
  philosophically just in our
• 34:22
  armchairs you do this and you don't do this and I don't
• 34:25
  understand it and I don't
• 34:26
  want to believe in it and blah blah blah and you're just
• 34:29
  shaking your fist at him
• 34:31
  where Alyosha has faith in Jesus Christ and he says all that we
• 34:39
  can do is help the
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: people
• 34:45
  on this earth with us here and now all we can do is try to
• 34:50
  alleviate some of that
• 34:52
  suffering that you're complaining about you're wasting your
• 34:56
  time complaining about
• 34:57
  it he doesn't say this but he says you're wasting your time
• 35:02
  complaining about it
• 35:03
  where I'm actually helping people and making a tiny difference
• 35:09
  and yeah I just very
• 35:14
  crazy philosophical and spiritual thinking that the author uses
• 35:21
  these characters to
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: grapple with.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, it's time that you've read this book.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll read it and then that'll be our next podcast.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be diving into it.
• 35:33
  It's the type of book where you can read certain chapters by
• 35:39
  themselves and it's
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: like a book in and of itself.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like biblical in that sense.
• 35:45
  I know,
• 35:46
  it's kind of scary to say that,
• 35:47
  but it does feel like that sometimes.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like one of the greatest books ever written.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's just one of the greatest writers ever.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Did he do...
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: He did Anna Karenina.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's... That's the other Russian dude.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's another Russian author, which... Dostoevsky and then Tolstoy.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Tolstoy, that is.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've read that one.
• 36:13
  I have not read that one but that's also recommended to me so
• 36:17
  much Brothers K
• 36:18
  sounds so much better yeah because Anna Karenina is just like a
• 36:23
  big long like it's
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: like human depravity basically is like
• 36:28
  the main theme of the book I feel like it is I mean it's
• 36:33
  incredible but it is very
• 36:36
  it's dark is it like stream of consciousness from the character
• 36:40
  or is it like a
• 36:41
  plot I mean I feel like so much of because I would imagine
• 36:46
  Brothers K is like
• 36:47
  mostly really long conversations in like beautiful places yeah
• 36:52
  with this plot
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: happening
• 36:55
  simultaneously and that is like a lot of the same thing Tolstoy
• 37:00
  and Dostoevsky are
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: contemporaries they're like peers
• 37:05
  writing in a similar-ish time period from my limited
• 37:09
  understanding and so like
• 37:13
  their settings and everything are very similar but yeah it's
• 37:18
  like a very different
• 37:19
  book it's still incredible and you must read it but it's very
• 37:23
  like just be ready
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: for like a hard time
• 37:29
  yeah it's tough well I wanted to start the podcast out that way
• 37:36
  because I wanted
• 37:36
  that to kind of be a theme but I want to like this is all so
• 37:40
  good but I also want
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: to switch gears and talk about your life not just
• 37:45
  not just books that were written like hundreds of years ago
• 37:47
  fair enough let's do it
• 37:49
  but I'm curious kind of like as you think about childhood
• 37:52
  memories and stuff like
• 37:55
  what how how was your kind of your journey of creativity was
• 37:59
  there like a moment
• 38:00
  growing up where you realized like you were creative or was it
• 38:04
  like more of a
• 38:05
  journey of discovering that over time and more of like a
• 38:08
  self-actualization later
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: in life wow I don't know actually
• 38:15
  off the top of my head I don't think I I don't know I would
• 38:24
  whoa this question may
• 38:26
  have unlocked a very early memory of creativity when I was in
• 38:34
  kindergarten we we
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: made this dinosaur book where you
• 38:42
  use construction paper and draw your dinosaurs and use
• 38:44
  different colors and blah
• 38:45
  blah blah and I will never forget the feeling after finishing
• 38:51
  this dinosaur book
• 38:52
  and how rewarding that felt and how proud and I just loved
• 38:57
  looking at it and
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: couldn't believe that I had made it and I think that might be
• 39:03
  one of my earliest memories of that positive,
• 39:09
  you know,
• 39:10
  creativity,
• 39:10
  rewarding type creativity.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't really very artistic in my later school years as far as,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: high school,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: middle school.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: I liked sports.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: I played basketball and tennis, as you know.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess creativity
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Another big creative outlet for me was music.
• 39:40
  Playing in bands and recording music and eventually writing
• 39:46
  songs and singing and performing.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: How early did that start?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: How early did music start?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Music started in middle school.
• 39:53
  I went over to a friend's house and he taught me how to play
• 39:56
  that crazy train riff.
• 40:01
  and ever since then I was hooked I begged my mom for a guitar
• 40:06
  and luckily enough I
• 40:08
  was able to take lessons so I was taking guitar lessons for a
• 40:11
  while and it wasn't
• 40:14
  very creative at that point because you're just learning the
• 40:17
  fundamentals but once
• 40:19
  you have some control over your tools and some confidence then
• 40:26
  you can start being
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: creative where
• 40:32
  my sister for example my younger sister plays piano really well
• 40:36
  she can read music
• 40:39
  she'd never even talk about it but she has never once tried to
• 40:47
  write her own music
• 40:49
  or put chords together in her own way when she plays piano she
• 40:53
  sits down and reads
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: the music that in and of itself is such a skill exactly I can't do that
• 41:01
  But I hear you being creative with piano next door when you go
• 41:05
  over to your parent's house.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, a different type of creative.
• 41:08
  I still think there's a ton of creativity and just learning how
• 41:10
  to like play music
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: and read music.
• 41:14
  Like that's a skill I wish I had,
• 41:16
  but I'm not disciplined enough to learn.
• 41:20
  See,
• 41:20
  I kind of disagree with because there are some very
• 41:26
  non-creative musicians that
• 41:31
  it's almost like mechanical okay this is how you play the music
• 41:37
  this is how you
• 41:37
  read it these are the notes it's like almost like well actually
• 41:43
  let me ask you okay
• 41:44
  what what to you feels creative and no wrong answer like I'm
• 41:49
  curious what you think
• 41:51
  is creative about that about like sight reading music
• 41:56
  particularly okay so
• 42:01
  yeah I still think sight read like I think it's pretty black
• 42:04
  and white so when I
• 42:06
  think of creativity in that context I think of like
• 42:09
  interpretation like Mozart
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: wrote his music a certain way
• 42:17
  but I am going to interpret his music like I like different
• 42:22
  arrangements of Mozart
• 42:24
  music for different reasons like there are arrangements of
• 42:27
  Mozart's music I'm using
• 42:29
  that as an example I don't listen to a ton of Mozart Vivaldi is
• 42:33
  probably a better
• 42:33
  example like I like um Vivaldi's four seasons by like a certain
• 42:39
  orchestra and a
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: certain uh
• 42:43
  conductor over like a different orchestra they're playing the
• 42:47
  same notes but
• 42:49
  they're playing them differently and that's why I would say
• 42:52
  like that's creativity
• 42:54
  that would be like a practical interpretation so what what
• 42:59
  changes is it those
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: musical elements like where things are like
• 43:07
  rising up or then they get quiet or like the tempo or the
• 43:11
  mirror yeah exactly all
• 43:13
  of those things where it's like even when your buddy showed you
• 43:16
  that song Crazy
• 43:18
  Train like the original guitarist that wrote that probably like
• 43:25
  played that
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: differently than your buddy that showed you that right?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: I see what you're saying but he has a different caliber of
• 43:36
  skillset skillset like that guy's been playing for 30 years or
• 43:39
  whatever he writes
• 43:40
  that maybe 20 years or whatever and your buddy is what you guys
• 43:44
  are in your you
• 43:47
  guys are like 10 12 yeah so it's like your buddy's been playing
• 43:51
  for a couple years
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: but doesn't have the chops to do what the artist did with that but he's
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: interpreting it in his own way
• 44:01
  I would say there's creativity in that I don't know Matt I feel
• 44:06
  like you're playing
• 44:07
  devil's advocate because think about it my friend for example
• 44:12
  he wants to play it
• 44:13
  just like he hears it on the recording and I'm speaking so I'm
• 44:17
  stretching here
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: because maybe he wasn't but I feel like
• 44:23
  He's simply trying his best to play how it sounds He's trying
• 44:27
  to mimic He's trying
• 44:28
  to mimic And I think when you talk about different
• 44:33
  interpretations and different
• 44:35
  versions of pieces of music You'll grant me that as creativity
• 44:41
  That's absolutely
• 44:41
  creative because you were understanding the original piece or
• 44:46
  score or whatever
• 44:48
  enough to be able to then say add your own I'm gonna do it my
• 44:52
  way which which is
• 44:53
  creative where I think when I first heard you say like like oh
• 44:57
  there's creativity
• 44:58
  reading music if you're just simply reading it's almost like a
• 45:04
  piano like you know
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: the pianos that play themselves yeah
• 45:07
  like they're just reading and playing the music like one for
• 45:11
  one but you have to be
• 45:13
  the person to know how to read the music like I guess maybe
• 45:18
  there's no person
• 45:19
  there's no creative element in that is there unless that person
• 45:25
  decided okay whoa
• 45:27
  I'm gonna play this longer yeah it says okay the tempo is 120
• 45:31
  beats per minute or
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: whatever I'm gonna do it at 110 then it becomes creative
• 45:36
  or I'm trying to think of the smallest way you could like but I
• 45:40
  feel like we
• 45:40
  inherently do that we inherently make our own versions of
• 45:46
  things even in mimicking
• 45:48
  this raises a really good point is create does creativity have
• 45:55
  to have that
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: voluntary element yeah we're skipping
• 46:01
  we're skipping to the last question really great like what is
• 46:09
  what is creativity
• 46:11
  for like yeah like does yeah for it to qualify as being
• 46:16
  creative does it have to be
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: a voluntary choice because are you saying that
• 46:23
  people just because they're inherently doing it differently
• 46:27
  because we're all made
• 46:28
  different is that does that make it creative so like my friend
• 46:33
  playing crazy train
• 46:36
  he's doing it the best he can in his own way is he doing it
• 46:41
  creatively though I
• 46:43
  mean I guess he's creating something yeah but like yeah maybe
• 46:49
  we need to define and
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: it is technically different than the original thing
• 46:53
  but is he trying to do that or is he simply trying to mimic it
• 46:57
  like does it have to
• 46:59
  be that voluntary act of I am trying to put my own spin on it
• 47:04
  for it to be to be
• 47:06
  creative yeah but how do we learn creativity we learn
• 47:11
  creativity by mimicking
• 47:12
  things and then so you're saying we don't learn like we're not
• 47:17
  being creative by
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: copying no we're not
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we're being creative by copying, no.
• 47:24
  but like you are the your work and the output of your work is
• 47:28
  the summation of like
• 47:30
  you taking things and then remixing them essentially but
• 47:35
  they're brand new because
• 47:36
  you're remixing them like you're taking an influence from a
• 47:40
  font you saw in a
• 47:41
  different book and then you're maybe changing like the serif L
• 47:47
  in like one little
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: way and then it's yours you're saying that's the creative act
• 47:53
  yeah I think so and and because let me let me ask you this so
• 47:58
  it's gonna be like a
• 48:00
  four-hour podcast I love it okay you have a painting and if you
• 48:10
  if you're trying to
• 48:12
  one for one copy this painting because you want to sell it try
• 48:16
  to sell it as a fake
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: right mm-hmm
• 48:20
  I guess that actually is is a creative way to okay forget that
• 48:26
  because in that
• 48:27
  sense I think copying this is really interesting now because
• 48:33
  the act of copying me
• 48:35
  let's say you made it one for one the Mona Lisa you copied it
• 48:39
  perfectly if that was
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: it I would say that's not creative
• 48:44
  But if you copied it one for one with the intention to try to
• 48:49
  then sell it as a
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: fake,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: it is now creative.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that weird?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have created this plan.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're really good at mimicking paintings.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: You've used that skill in a creative way to try to make money.
• 49:14
  in a very corrupt kind of way but do you kind of see the
• 49:17
  distinction I see what
• 49:19
  you're saying and I understand it intellectually I don't think
• 49:24
  I agree like I think
• 49:26
  it really comes down to like a mess of definitions is like what
• 49:31
  I feel like we're
• 49:32
  dancing around which is like what is creativity and how do you
• 49:35
  define it and that's
• 49:36
  what I think we're starting the conversation in that like
• 49:41
  people for thousands of
• 49:43
  years have been trying to decipher like what is creativity okay
• 49:48
  last question yeah
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: last question on this
• 49:51
  if that same painter that one for one painter made a perfect
• 49:56
  copy of the Mona Lisa
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: is that creative in your mind
• 50:04
  I think part of my definition of creativity is all the things
• 50:08
  that lead up to an
• 50:09
  act of creating something like I think it's a verb like
• 50:16
  creating creativity comes
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: from creating which like inherently
• 50:21
  that artist is creating something like they are putting paint
• 50:26
  on a paintbrush and
• 50:27
  they're painting the Mona Lisa it's not theirs they're copying
• 50:32
  it but they are
• 50:33
  creating something right yeah but but maybe what you're saying
• 50:39
  is more true of
• 50:40
  creativity where like create true creativity is not creating
• 50:45
  something that's
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: already been created is that what you're trying to say
• 50:50
  yeah yeah I see the distinction like when you when you look at
• 50:55
  create as a verb
• 50:57
  yeah could be anything totally like doesn't doesn't I can be
• 51:01
  creative in accounting
• 51:02
  and I can be creative as an artist yeah yeah as long as you're
• 51:05
  making something new
• 51:07
  or making something yeah or doing something like you create
• 51:12
  something totally I
• 51:14
  think yeah the distinction is defining that word creativity and
• 51:18
  and I think I was
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: leaning more towards
• 51:21
  what would you call that version like a more of like a for the
• 51:28
  sake of the
• 51:28
  conversation we could call it like original creativity versus
• 51:32
  like mimicry perfect
• 51:33
  there you go yeah there you go where it's like when you are
• 51:38
  looking at pinterest at
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: uh wine labels
• 51:45
  you're not copy and pasting that for your project you are
• 51:50
  getting inspiration that
• 51:52
  you will take inspiration from you'll take other people's
• 51:55
  creativity and you will
• 51:57
  synthesize it into a new version of creativity that you will
• 52:01
  output and it won't be
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: those people's but those people have informed your version
• 52:10
  so you're taking bits and pieces from you're inspired by them
• 52:13
  like it's the same
• 52:14
  thing with any sort of you were inspired by a crazy train and
• 52:19
  that's why you
• 52:20
  started doing guitar but then you learned a bunch of songs that
• 52:24
  were also other
• 52:25
  people's you made them your own in your own way and then you
• 52:28
  also started like
• 52:30
  taking your influences from whatever artists were your favorite
• 52:34
  and then you
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: started creating your own
• 52:36
  stuff that's wholly original to you yeah yeah it's like the the
• 52:41
  creative tree
• 52:42
  basically yeah it's like we're all just branching off of this
• 52:46
  one single seed of
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: creativity that was yeah given to mankind and and that yeah I I
• 52:56
  I used to feel like I used to not understand what the ethics
• 53:00
  were there like with
• 53:03
  creativity like when I started getting into graphic design and
• 53:05
  I started and I
• 53:07
  worked for a like a marketing agency and I remember having a
• 53:13
  conversation with my
• 53:14
  creative director where I'm like I know that art copies art I
• 53:20
  mean that's how we
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: speak this language of creativity I mean it's like
• 53:27
  to you can't like be in a vacuum yeah I mean some people can
• 53:33
  and just they just but
• 53:35
  even then it's so hard to argue because like your whole life
• 53:38
  leads yeah leads to
• 53:40
  the way you think about creativity and maybe you picked up a
• 53:43
  piece subconsciously
• 53:45
  when you're traveling and you thought that like that font that
• 53:49
  that restaurant used
• 53:50
  was cool totally stuck in your mind I mean it's so hard to
• 53:53
  define that but I
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: remember trying to
• 53:57
  have that conversation with one of my creative directors like
• 54:00
  what what is the what
• 54:02
  are the ethics here like how close to this original that you're
• 54:07
  you're borrowing
• 54:07
  from yeah can you get before it's like immoral or even legally
• 54:11
  yeah and and for me
• 54:15
  I you know I always had that the hubris of man is like in in my
• 54:20
  sense create
• 54:21
  creatively speaking is like I always wanted it to feel
• 54:24
  distinctly my own I would
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: never
• 54:27
  get that same satisfaction as I felt in kindergarten if I
• 54:33
  pretty blatantly copied
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: someone and then tried to play it off as my own,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: which would defeat the whole purpose.
• 54:39
  And then a lot of artists right now are speaking out on AI,
• 54:45
  on their thoughts on AI.
• 54:47
  I was going to go there,
• 54:47
  but you already...
• 54:49
  And this one artist I follow was like,
• 54:55
  she's like I've been people have been asking me like are you
• 54:57
  afraid of AI and like
• 54:58
  stealing your and like AI can make what you're doing so why do
• 55:02
  you continue to do
• 55:05
  this if now this computer can do it and it was like she
• 55:10
  answered in such an obvious
• 55:12
  way that I feel like any artist would understand is that I do
• 55:18
  this even though it
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: takes me like she does hyper realistic
• 55:24
  colored pencil sketches to where you can barely tell the thing
• 55:29
  from a photograph.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: C.J.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hendry.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she says, this takes me like a week or more for each piece.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: I do this because I love the process of being creative.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's more about that process.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you put in
• 55:49
  those hours and you get to that end result there's a big
• 55:52
  satisfaction but it's not
• 55:53
  simply to just have this piece at the end of it it's like that
• 55:58
  it's that process
• 56:00
  that artists like feed on and they it's like bread for them
• 56:05
  basically it's like so
• 56:08
  it and it was such an obvious like I was surprised that anyone
• 56:12
  could even ask that
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: question but but then I was thinking like
• 56:16
  you know some people don't think that way like my dad wouldn't
• 56:19
  think that way he
• 56:20
  the easiest way to get or do something is the way he's going to
• 56:23
  do it so and
• 56:25
  there's I don't think that's there's no one way isn't more held
• 56:32
  in higher regard
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: than the other it's just
• 56:35
  Well I mean I think I might disagree with you like I think
• 56:38
  process will always
• 56:40
  outperform like immediacy like when I hear that artist still
• 56:46
  doing her thing that's
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: I would much rather have that than like the like
• 56:53
  okay make me a picture in the style of this artist cool okay
• 56:59
  two seconds later I
• 57:00
  have that like if you were looking to buy a piece of artwork
• 57:05
  right yeah I mean I'd
• 57:07
  much rather have hers yeah so that is so cool to hear you say
• 57:12
  that and explain that
• 57:14
  like why would you want the real thing as a yeah as someone
• 57:17
  that didn't do it
• 57:18
  Well I think I mean just as a I think part of my identity
• 57:24
  definitely is wrapped up
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: in creativity and building things and being creative in that and so like
• 57:31
  part of it is just supporting like those like-minded people
• 57:34
  that are doing that
• 57:35
  thing because it's an indicator of like keep going keep doing
• 57:40
  this thing even
• 57:41
  though there's a bunch of like external factors that say why
• 57:46
  are you doing this
• 57:46
  thing that's stupid like go get a job that has control which I
• 57:52
  think is funny
• 57:53
  because like a lot of what these people do is actually way more
• 57:57
  valuable than like
• 58:00
  it's sort of paradoxical and that like no there's only one
• 58:04
  person that can do that
• 58:05
  type of pencil drawing art style like nobody else can do that
• 58:10
  so like when
• 58:14
  inevitably like everything gets turned over to AI and we're
• 58:18
  working for them or
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: whatever that I say that satirically but whenever that kind of plateaus
• 58:26
  I think people are going to look around and look at the experts
• 58:28
  and the specialists
• 58:29
  that have been like yeah no I like I keep making wood chairs
• 58:32
  because like yeah of
• 58:33
  course the computer like I can go to Ikea and buy a chair or
• 58:36
  whatever but like I
• 58:38
  like the chairs that I make and a lot of people do too and they
• 58:40
  they like buy them
• 58:41
  from me for a reason I don't know I think that's part of it I
• 58:45
  don't know if I
• 58:46
  answered your question no that absolutely did that's so cool
• 58:49
  like supporting
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: supporting the artists and and there's something
• 58:57
  one of my professors in college used this word ineffable you
• 59:03
  probably are familiar
• 59:04
  with this but something that can't really be described with
• 59:08
  words so I feel like
• 59:12
  these types of like human like just knowing that a human made
• 59:17
  it is satisfying and
• 59:20
  comforting in some way which is like for me I don't really I
• 59:22
  can't think of a word
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: for that but yeah
• 59:26
  but the knowing that there's a story behind it maybe that's
• 59:29
  totally the as
• 59:31
  storytellers as people that love to read and and just that type
• 59:36
  of thing like it
• 59:37
  makes sense that we would appreciate the story behind yeah a
• 59:40
  piece of artwork where
• 59:42
  that's a huge part of creativity I think yeah and even you know
• 59:48
  to argue for AI for
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: a second
• 59:52
  um there's still a story there because like let's say I went
• 59:56
  and bought an AI
• 59:58
  version of this pencil type art that's a pretty crazy story to
• 1:00:03
  tell that hey I
• 1:00:03
  bought this piece of AI art at a time where AI was emerging and
• 1:00:09
  there was so much
• 1:00:10
  discussion and disruption happening and yeah there's you know
• 1:00:15
  there's there's still
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: a story there but um yeah I think uh
• 1:00:22
  As an artist,
• 1:00:23
  I'm not at odds with AI and I don't fear it or it doesn't upset
• 1:00:32
  me.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: A, because it's a very useful tool.
• 1:00:37
  I use it every day to figure out what this weird rash is on my
• 1:00:43
  son's butt.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or even...
• 1:00:48
  even when i'm working on like jobs like hey can you please
• 1:00:51
  organize like all of
• 1:00:53
  these wines for example like from this block of text can you
• 1:00:56
  can you grab just the
• 1:00:58
  titles of the ones so i can input them like it's amazing yeah a
• 1:01:01
  little tool but uh
• 1:01:05
  i but back to that like that process of just whether there's ai
• 1:01:11
  or not making
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: things quickly that might affect my ability to get paid to make art
• 1:01:18
  but it's more about the process like CJ Henry was saying so
• 1:01:28
  unless I live in a
• 1:01:29
  society that doesn't allow me to do that that's going to be the
• 1:01:33
  most important part
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: anyway so
• 1:01:36
  it's yeah I don't there's really no fear or anything from AI
• 1:01:44
  yeah emergence yeah
• 1:01:45
  but yeah well there's so much I knew this was gonna happen
• 1:01:49
  where it was like
• 1:01:50
  I'm gonna write out and think about like 15 great questions and
• 1:01:54
  then we're not
• 1:01:55
  gonna get to any of them because we're gonna we're gonna talk
• 1:01:58
  about like everything
• 1:01:59
  else which is amazing but yeah you know my tendency to ramble
• 1:02:03
  oh yeah that's
• 1:02:04
  amazing I love it I'm curious kind of in this conversation of
• 1:02:09
  like I know the the
• 1:02:12
  one of your first memories of creativity and like that feeling
• 1:02:16
  that you got from it
• 1:02:17
  because I do feel like that's a piece of the the puzzle in
• 1:02:21
  creativity and stuff was
• 1:02:22
  there someone that you like looked up to growing up that was
• 1:02:26
  like embodied that
• 1:02:27
  type of creative person and that you like learned a lot from I
• 1:02:33
  learned a lot from
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: my parents
• 1:02:37
  we had a babysitter when I was younger so whenever my parents
• 1:02:40
  would go out we had
• 1:02:40
  this babysitter and she'd always bring creative things to do
• 1:02:43
  like little crafts and
• 1:02:46
  we'd make things and she had just cool we'd make bracelets
• 1:02:51
  sometimes or whatever me
• 1:02:53
  and my sisters it was always usually kind of like you know
• 1:02:55
  girly stuff but I loved
• 1:02:58
  it and at that age it doesn't even matter even at this age but
• 1:03:04
  that I don't know
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: how
• 1:03:09
  important I don't think I realized how important that was until
• 1:03:14
  maybe you asked
• 1:03:14
  this question but that definitely is like the early cultivation
• 1:03:21
  of that type of
• 1:03:22
  creativity I think and I would have said like well that's just
• 1:03:27
  like any kid is
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: going to enjoy doing that right yeah but maybe not I don't know
• 1:03:32
  It'll strike some sort of chord on some level Like a
• 1:03:37
  non-creative adult As kids,
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: did they enjoy creativity and at some point did it disappear?
• 1:03:45
  Yeah,
• 1:03:45
  like did we let the tasks of life kind of take over in some way
• 1:03:50
  and then lose that?
• 1:03:52
  I loved what you said about parenting is like a second
• 1:03:55
  childhood I feel like that's
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: definitely true You learn to get outside yourself in a very different way
• 1:04:02
  then like if you aren't a parent and that's I mean there's so
• 1:04:05
  many people that
• 1:04:06
  aren't that are still amazing awesome incredible people but
• 1:04:10
  it's like you learn so
• 1:04:11
  much through the process of being a parent and I mean it's so
• 1:04:16
  challenging and
• 1:04:17
  dynamic and changing all the time and you have to figure out
• 1:04:20
  how to adapt and stuff
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: and do that with your partner and all that kind of stuff but
• 1:04:26
  yeah there is like that second childhood and then you also get
• 1:04:29
  to like remember
• 1:04:29
  your childhood in a different way because like you're sort of
• 1:04:32
  living vicariously
• 1:04:33
  through your kids and be like oh I remember this good thing or
• 1:04:36
  I remember this
• 1:04:37
  terrible thing like let's make sure we never do that yeah and
• 1:04:41
  so I feel like so
• 1:04:42
  much of that is I resonate a lot with the I've not heard it
• 1:04:46
  said that way before
• 1:04:47
  and I really like that parenting is like the second childhood
• 1:04:51
  yeah yeah it does
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: feel like that and and
• 1:04:56
  because I've the obvious one is like having kids makes you
• 1:05:01
  experience childhood
• 1:05:02
  again yeah but that's how it is which is so fun right it's like
• 1:05:10
  like you were just
• 1:05:10
  saying like you revisit all your favorite movies or things to
• 1:05:14
  do as a kid and you
• 1:05:14
  try to share them with your kids and it's funny that like the
• 1:05:20
  second childhood goes
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: a step further where it's like you're
• 1:05:26
  in this new experience with them again yeah on your your
• 1:05:31
  learning and hopefully
• 1:05:32
  self-aware enough to like kind of reflect on it more too yeah
• 1:05:36
  you have you have
• 1:05:37
  grown-up tools but I still have temper tantrums and yes yeah it
• 1:05:43
  just is put under
• 1:05:45
  whatever filters we've created to like cope and and survive and
• 1:05:50
  yeah all the things
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: that happen I want to ask you how important do you think do you think
• 1:05:57
  and I know this will always just kind of like what's the word
• 1:06:09
  like end up at nature
• 1:06:13
  versus nurture but do you think how important do you think it
• 1:06:19
  is to foster that
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: creativity and
• 1:06:23
  took the words right out of my mouth at these young ages yeah
• 1:06:28
  and if you don't do
• 1:06:31
  we think that like if you're born to be creative you're gonna
• 1:06:35
  find a way anyways or
• 1:06:36
  yeah yeah well and that's I mean how we're defining creativity
• 1:06:41
  I think is important
• 1:06:43
  it's funny yeah that that was literally my next question is
• 1:06:46
  like how do you protect
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: your creativity
• 1:06:49
  in your own life individually and then how because I think that
• 1:06:54
  is a correlation
• 1:06:55
  between what you just asked which is like how do you do
• 1:06:58
  creativity well in your
• 1:07:00
  family that you're bringing up and I think the two are linked
• 1:07:04
  like inseparably like
• 1:07:06
  whatever you pour into I don't know whether it's a therapist or
• 1:07:11
  a psychologist they
• 1:07:12
  talk about ideas of work on yourself so that you can the
• 1:07:19
  outpouring of yourself can
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: be whatever you want to push towards other people that's like a
• 1:07:25
  that's a really bad way to say that but like working on
• 1:07:30
  yourself actually pays
• 1:07:31
  dividends for like the things that you want to work on other
• 1:07:34
  people for and so I
• 1:07:36
  feel like that's a piece of the answer on some level but I
• 1:07:40
  wanted to ask you
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: because I'm wrestling with this too and you're like
• 1:07:44
  you're a couple years down the road with just even the ages of
• 1:07:48
  the boys but like
• 1:07:50
  yeah what is that for you and I'm not trying to get out of the
• 1:07:53
  question I'll tell
• 1:07:55
  you where I'm at with that which is really like and I want to
• 1:07:59
  make sure I'm getting
• 1:08:00
  your question what you're asking for is like how do you
• 1:08:05
  cultivate creativity in
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_00: your kids in a way that like
• 1:08:13
  they naturally come to and if it's not natural for them how do
• 1:08:17
  you like cultivate
• 1:08:19
  what is natural for them and and is that fair yeah that that's
• 1:08:25
  a great way to to
• 1:08:26
  ask it yeah okay and then the way that we're talking about
• 1:08:30
  creativity right now is
• 1:08:31
  like kind of historically the arts and and like whether that's
• 1:08:37
  music photography
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: painting like filmmaking um
• 1:08:42
  I think even engineering too and building and architecture
• 1:08:47
  maybe but that's like so
• 1:08:49
  yeah I feel like that's that's one of the things that I feel
• 1:08:52
  like and I'm noticing
• 1:08:53
  this in our I mean she's only like a little over two is like I
• 1:08:59
  think childhood like
• 1:09:01
  they're just learning so much anyway like those skills are just
• 1:09:05
  a byproduct of them
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: learning like
• 1:09:09
  some version of that is coming out and whatever they're doing
• 1:09:13
  and then you're
• 1:09:13
  asking you're specifically asking how do you cultivate that
• 1:09:17
  yeah and I'm wondering
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering how important
• 1:09:31
  if we assume that certain people are born towards certain
• 1:09:38
  affinities and creativity
• 1:09:39
  is one of them how important is it as parents to set up those
• 1:09:47
  habits so that
• 1:09:49
  creativity develops or is it will they just find ways to do
• 1:09:56
  that on their own I
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: guess I'm just wondering
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Should we be having art time for 30 minutes a day?
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And how important is that?
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Will that make or break him being a creative person?
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's such a hard answer.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: No one's really going to be able to answer that.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:10:20
  I feel like it would be really interesting to have my mom
• 1:10:24
  answer that question just
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: because she's gone through it in a different way.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  I think of my own experience like my mom was sort of a drill
• 1:10:34
  sergeant and like we
• 1:10:36
  did not get along growing up like when I was growing up and
• 1:10:41
  like a lot of that was
• 1:10:42
  because of like this regiment of like you will do these things
• 1:10:49
  and you may or may
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_00: not enjoy them but you're gonna do them and so like I wouldn't
• 1:10:55
  play the piano every day now if it wasn't for my mom like being
• 1:11:00
  like you will take
• 1:11:01
  lessons and and I think there could have been better ways to
• 1:11:05
  learn how to play the
• 1:11:06
  piano like if they had sort of understood that I was like a
• 1:11:12
  hearer and not like a
• 1:11:14
  reading a sight reader like I probably would have enjoyed piano
• 1:11:18
  lessons more
• 1:11:19
  but that's not something that they or maybe they consciously
• 1:11:22
  chose to like give me
• 1:11:24
  the harder one because they wanted me to sight read because
• 1:11:27
  they knew I could like
• 1:11:28
  hear music but yeah like that was your natural gift yes and so
• 1:11:34
  they were like cool
• 1:11:35
  like let's let's go to the gym on this other one you're like
• 1:11:38
  really weak in this
• 1:11:39
  area maybe that's what they were thinking through we've not
• 1:11:42
  talked about that we
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: should that would be an interesting yeah
• 1:11:46
  this is so interesting to hear that because this is exactly
• 1:11:51
  what I was that I've
• 1:11:52
  been what I've been thinking about with this question so your
• 1:11:55
  mom was very
• 1:11:56
  regimented kind of a drill sergeant you would do certain things
• 1:12:01
  at the same time
• 1:12:02
  every day right yeah well and we were homeschooled too so it
• 1:12:06
  was another level of
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: drill sergeant-ness too and she was a professional she had done
• 1:12:13
  teaching for a long time so this wasn't like something she was
• 1:12:17
  kind of figuring out
• 1:12:18
  like this was something she excelled at and was a specialist in
• 1:12:22
  and so and these
• 1:12:23
  although they were painful then they led to you having these
• 1:12:28
  creative outlets today
• 1:12:30
  right well yeah I think like even I don't know I mean there's
• 1:12:34
  so many incredible
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: dividends that have been
• 1:12:37
  paid because of the challenge of her being kind of a drill
• 1:12:43
  sergeant around a lot of
• 1:12:45
  my education and around a lot of the creative pursuits that she
• 1:12:51
  pushed me to do.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or just the fact that I read more now.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to get back to some version of what she instilled in me
• 1:13:01
  when we were like growing up like we read a ton and then I had
• 1:13:05
  like a season of not
• 1:13:06
  reading a lot because I was like a little more independent this
• 1:13:09
  is Stockholm
• 1:13:10
  syndrome basically and I'm not mad about it that is so
• 1:13:17
  interesting so you don't
• 1:13:18
  have because when I was for example I was talking to your
• 1:13:21
  friend Levi about tennis
• 1:13:23
  yeah and his dad was a drill sergeant with tennis and now he
• 1:13:26
  won't touch a racket
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_00: yeah
• 1:13:28
  so where's that line so I think it's like yeah it's so it feels
• 1:13:32
  so variable and so
• 1:13:34
  dependent on the kid where it's like for me even with my
• 1:13:39
  education like my mom even
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_00: with all her regimentedness like she
• 1:13:45
  her patience expired with me and so like she had to send me to
• 1:13:49
  another school to
• 1:13:50
  like have someone else teach me because I was like too nuts for
• 1:13:55
  her basically and
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_00: so it's like like hyper or just super rebellious and disobedient and um
• 1:14:04
  yeah like incredibly frustrating because we have very similar
• 1:14:08
  personalities I think
• 1:14:09
  and so we clash we clashed a lot so she wanted to control a
• 1:14:14
  situation and you also
• 1:14:15
  wanted to control it and no one wanted to give up control yeah
• 1:14:18
  and also just like I
• 1:14:19
  was a kid so I was super annoying and probably really
• 1:14:22
  disobedient and didn't listen
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_00: well
• 1:14:25
  there was probably so many things about that situation that
• 1:14:29
  ended up needing me to
• 1:14:31
  like be taught by someone else but even in that like both my
• 1:14:36
  brothers they're
• 1:14:37
  they're very different and they're similar in a lot of ways but
• 1:14:40
  they they had their
• 1:14:42
  own path that they like trod for lack of a better word to like
• 1:14:47
  get to where they
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_00: are today where
• 1:14:49
  it does seem incredibly specific to the actual kid where it's
• 1:14:53
  like how much do I
• 1:14:55
  challenge this part like for instance V is like she's in that
• 1:15:00
  testing phase of like
• 1:15:02
  and I mean you know exactly what I'm talking about where it's
• 1:15:04
  just like this is so
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: frustrating like I'm trying to
• 1:15:09
  show you something so that you don't like fall like she really
• 1:15:13
  loves climbing the
• 1:15:14
  outside of the banisters so like on our way up the stairs she
• 1:15:20
  likes climbing the
• 1:15:21
  outside the outside where if she just like slipped which is
• 1:15:25
  like every single time
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_00: she does it and I'm right there like she slips and then I catch her
• 1:15:31
  but she started doing that on her own now where it's like look
• 1:15:35
  I don't want you
• 1:15:35
  doing this because I don't want you falling off and like
• 1:15:38
  hitting your head on the
• 1:15:38
  piano bench that's like really sharp or like just for obvious
• 1:15:44
  reasons but she
• 1:15:45
  doesn't understand that yet and she's in the testing phase of
• 1:15:48
  like how far can I
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: push dad and then like when is he gonna snap
• 1:15:52
  and it's like for her I'm curious to understand like what the
• 1:15:58
  difference is with
• 1:16:00
  our daughter that's joining us in a couple weeks where it's
• 1:16:03
  like what's her
• 1:16:04
  personality like is it going to be more of the same or is it
• 1:16:07
  going to be like she's
• 1:16:08
  going to be more tepid when it comes to like I don't need to
• 1:16:13
  test mom and dad
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_00: because I see what happens
• 1:16:16
  when V tests them and I do not like like that was me growing up
• 1:16:20
  with my oldest
• 1:16:22
  brother where like he and my mom have similar personalities too
• 1:16:26
  and I mean you've
• 1:16:27
  hung out with him like he's a life of the party in the same way
• 1:16:30
  that like my mom
• 1:16:32
  growing up was I think and so it's like um I learned a ton of
• 1:16:37
  lessons of like what
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_00: not to do from him not enough apparently um
• 1:16:43
  but yeah I don't know I don't know the answer I feel like I'm
• 1:16:47
  very much in the
• 1:16:48
  beginning of that season of figuring out like how do you how do
• 1:16:52
  you kind of meet
• 1:16:53
  them where they're at and then pull them up to another higher
• 1:16:59
  level and challenge
• 1:17:00
  them but in the right way so that it's like formative and not
• 1:17:05
  destructive yeah yeah
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: well said and I you mentioned earlier in the conversation
• 1:17:14
  sometimes the best thing you can do is be that example that
• 1:17:22
  they then see like oh
• 1:17:23
  my my dad likes to draw so maybe that's enough just seeing me
• 1:17:29
  draw and enjoy it and
• 1:17:30
  he'll at the very least want to try it at some point yeah maybe
• 1:17:33
  not but yeah rather
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_01: than because I know that I'm I'll never be the parent
• 1:17:43
  I wish I had a more regimented style sometimes because I think
• 1:17:48
  my son does need
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_01: structure Is Hannah that way?
• 1:17:52
  He's just all over the place Hannah's not either so you know
• 1:17:56
  fortunately for him
• 1:17:57
  he's getting some structure at school Yeah Because his mind is
• 1:18:01
  it wanders very I
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: mean he's four Yeah But I think he also it's like a special case where
• 1:18:09
  he's just all over the place and I wish I could instill some of
• 1:18:14
  that focus but
• 1:18:18
  just trying to lead by example is a good place to start maybe I
• 1:18:22
  definitely think
• 1:18:23
  that's a huge part of it is like you are who you hang out with
• 1:18:29
  and it's like if
• 1:18:31
  you're hanging out with your family mostly then like the way
• 1:18:34
  that they talk the way
• 1:18:36
  that they act around people the things that they do when
• 1:18:39
  they're not around people
• 1:18:41
  that are different than when they are around people like yeah
• 1:18:44
  he's you know they're
• 1:18:45
  noticing all of those they're like the most observant little
• 1:18:50
  people ever where it's
• 1:18:52
  just like oh man you're saying like I think it's so funny but
• 1:18:55
  I'm also like a
• 1:18:56
  little bummed about it is V will be like she'll she'll say like
• 1:19:03
  oh must gosh
• 1:19:06
  because I'll be like oh my gosh about like whatever and I'll
• 1:19:09
  tell Shelby about
• 1:19:10
  something and now she's like oh my gosh that's awesome the
• 1:19:16
  birds outside or
• 1:19:17
  whatever it's like I don't really like that you're doing that
• 1:19:20
  but it's also so
• 1:19:21
  hilarious and it's not going to last for very long and she'll
• 1:19:26
  be saying the real
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_00: thing so it's like I don't know it's yeah it feels like both ends
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_01: There was a very seminal moment in my son's life where he would say,
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: hold you,
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_01: when he wanted to be held.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_01: He'd be like, hold you, hold you.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that meant pick him up.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And one day, he said, hold me.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you were like, a little piece of you died.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_01: His innocence is gone.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_01: A little piece of me died.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_00: He's a man of the world.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Go get a job.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_01: That is so funny.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like, yeah, that's been such an interesting...
• 1:20:04
  season of like oh they these funny ways of because it's just
• 1:20:08
  crazy how fast they
• 1:20:09
  learn words and sentences and the context of things and even
• 1:20:13
  like jokes and like
• 1:20:15
  what to laugh at and whatnot it's just wild to me that they
• 1:20:19
  learn this all so fast
• 1:20:20
  within like a couple years of being born I will say that he's
• 1:20:27
  not even four yet and
• 1:20:30
  I can have just full conversations with him he understands
• 1:20:34
  things when I show him
• 1:20:35
  how to do things his motor skills are such that he can most
• 1:20:39
  likely do it and I'm
• 1:20:41
  thinking like like okay he's we did it we raised him here he is
• 1:20:46
  he's not even four
• 1:20:47
  yeah it's crazy to think that like I didn't think they got this
• 1:20:53
  developed this
• 1:20:54
  early I guess is my the software got so sophisticated so
• 1:20:57
  quickly sophisticated now
• 1:21:00
  like the new legal adult age you know I don't know it just it's
• 1:21:04
  crazy like crazy
• 1:21:07
  how quickly they well and also just like now that he's being
• 1:21:10
  socialized too like
• 1:21:11
  that adds a whole new layer of everything and then having a
• 1:21:15
  sibling too I mean that
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_01: helps both of them grow up a little bit yeah
• 1:21:21
  what was that transition like when when kid number two came
• 1:21:27
  along like was that
• 1:21:30
  overwhelming in like a crazy way or was it I guess overwhelming
• 1:21:34
  in a more chill way
• 1:21:35
  like because I'm like a couple weeks out from that yeah yeah I
• 1:21:40
  remember being a
• 1:21:41
  couple weeks out myself and and just feeling excited but very
• 1:21:47
  nervous that
• 1:21:49
  it's it the craziness is gonna double like I just kept thinking
• 1:21:52
  that in my mind
• 1:21:53
  like it's crazy now I can't how can we double this there's no
• 1:21:56
  way we're gonna
• 1:21:56
  survive and we the personalities are it's just different yeah
• 1:22:03
  they it makes life
• 1:22:06
  makes room and even like your energy levels and and things are
• 1:22:11
  a little bit more
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_01: hectic from time to time because you have to divide and conquer yeah
• 1:22:16
  a lot of times like okay you put the older one to bed I'll put
• 1:22:19
  the younger one to
• 1:22:19
  bed and vice versa but it's led to so many good things man like
• 1:22:24
  me and Adler the
• 1:22:27
  older one for example like we have a really special bond now
• 1:22:30
  because we're spending
• 1:22:31
  a lot more time alone than before without our second son you
• 1:22:37
  know we're always
• 1:22:37
  together as a unit wife me Adler we did everything and now me
• 1:22:42
  and Adler are doing
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: and he's a little older too now
• 1:22:45
  and it's just there's so many sweet little new things and the
• 1:22:52
  all of that like oh
• 1:22:53
  man double workload like double effort stuff that I was
• 1:22:57
  worrying about internally
• 1:23:01
  doesn't matter at all like I can assure you that like like
• 1:23:04
  you'll you'll have days
• 1:23:05
  where you're like this is crazy but it's most of the time I'm
• 1:23:10
  laughing yeah
• 1:23:13
  About it and it's just like the younger one's personality is
• 1:23:20
  kind of that more
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_01: reserved where he just watches a lot.
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_01: He likes to watch his older brother and he's not like, not yet.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Once he starts walking, it's going to change the game.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's manageable and it's so worth it.
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, too late for that.
• 1:23:41
  yeah yeah I'm overwhelmingly like excited yeah I'm so curious
• 1:23:50
  to see what it's
• 1:23:51
  gonna be like yeah yeah it's so exciting thinking about like
• 1:23:55
  what kind of little
• 1:23:56
  personality is this one gonna have yeah yeah London what were
• 1:24:01
  you gonna say yeah
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_00: just a couple weeks huh yeah yeah two girls yeah yeah
• 1:24:08
  I know yeah so we'll be on the total opposite side of dealing
• 1:24:13
  with through the
• 1:24:15
  years I'm sure we will have many conversations of man it sounds
• 1:24:19
  like can we swap
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_00: about this thing or can we yeah you're dealing with the craziness of like
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_00: him going everywhere and doing everything.
• 1:24:28
  It's like,
• 1:24:29
  yeah,
• 1:24:29
  I'm curious to see,
• 1:24:30
  I don't know,
• 1:24:31
  just raising girls in this economy.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a joke, but also real.
• 1:24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very curious to see what that'll be like.
• 1:24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're going to want luxury cars for their birthday.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:24:47
  Well,
• 1:24:48
  I know a lot of people to talk to about that to help invest in
• 1:24:52
  their cars for them.
• 1:24:54
  I won't be putting any money towards it I'll be doing the
• 1:24:56
  raising and stuff Maybe
• 1:24:59
  grandma and grandpa can throw some money in there I'm very
• 1:25:06
  excited It's hard
• 1:25:09
  because you want to be open minded about I don't know what to
• 1:25:11
  expect but then it's
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_00: also you're like
• 1:25:14
  uh kind of think about what it'll be like and and you can't not
• 1:25:18
  you're just trying
• 1:25:19
  to find the equilibrium of like how do you hold this thing
• 1:25:22
  open-handed but then
• 1:25:23
  also be like i have these expectations about it yeah exactly i
• 1:25:27
  know it's one of
• 1:25:27
  those things where you just have to hurry up and wait yeah i
• 1:25:32
  mean what can i do we
• 1:25:33
  we have all of the things we need yeah yeah we're just already
• 1:25:37
  has it all yeah
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: that's what it feels like that's the cool thing about the same gender yes
• 1:25:43
  Or sex I guess is the right word Those are both the correct
• 1:25:47
  words I guess so I'm
• 1:25:50
  looking forward to that At some point I would like a boy so I
• 1:25:54
  can carry on the
• 1:25:55
  family name But maybe they could be progressive and keep the
• 1:26:01
  Heisler name At least
• 1:26:03
  we have Jackson who's going to carry on the family name A lot
• 1:26:07
  riding on his
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_01: shoulders
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about a quiet, observant boy.
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 1:26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've given me so much of your time.
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_00: We could probably talk for another four or five hours, I feel like.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Easily.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking forward to doing that again at some point.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of every conversation,
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_00: I ask a question from our last guest that they asked of you.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know who the next guest is going to be, but they asked
• 1:26:39
  I stole it from a different podcast but it's creative because
• 1:26:44
  I'm putting my own
• 1:26:45
  spin on it question mark question mark to be determined and so
• 1:26:50
  this is from my
• 1:26:51
  buddy Noah who I mean for a little bit of context he is a
• 1:26:56
  pastor and so his
• 1:26:58
  question is around pastoral type things but his question is
• 1:27:03
  what has been the
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_00: greatest spiritual moment of your life
• 1:27:08
  I think my revelation when God revealed himself to me and I it
• 1:27:16
  was some years ago
• 1:27:18
  but never been able to shake it and it's led to my faith that I
• 1:27:26
  have today and that
• 1:27:28
  was the experience of my younger sister we're very close by the
• 1:27:35
  way my younger
• 1:27:35
  SPEAKER_01: sister and I and she
• 1:27:37
  I think I told you this story but she has a seizure type
• 1:27:42
  disorder where her memory
• 1:27:45
  blacks out she doesn't fall on the ground and foam at the mouth
• 1:27:49
  or anything like
• 1:27:50
  that but she'll have a seizure and kind of black out and then
• 1:27:54
  her short term memory
• 1:27:55
  from that could be that whole day is wiped out basically and it
• 1:28:00
  back when this
• 1:28:01
  first started happening it would take her about a half hour to
• 1:28:05
  you know wake up
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_01: from these
• 1:28:07
  seizures she'd be present but she'd be looking around with the
• 1:28:11
  weirdest look on her
• 1:28:12
  face like where am I and she would kind of lick her lips
• 1:28:16
  sometimes and like look at
• 1:28:18
  each person over and over again and and then she'd ask like
• 1:28:24
  where am I what what
• 1:28:25
  day is it wow and that's so scary so scary it's just terrible
• 1:28:30
  seeing her go through
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_01: that and two times when this happened um
• 1:28:38
  I was with her a lot when this happened but two of those times
• 1:28:42
  she would have her
• 1:28:45
  seizure and then she would wake up in that time in which she
• 1:28:50
  would be like figuring
• 1:28:52
  out where she is and all that she would look at me with the
• 1:28:56
  full confidence that
• 1:28:57
  she was right there present and she would say that Stephen
• 1:29:04
  Jesus loves you and
• 1:29:07
  she would say things like he wants you to pursue your passions
• 1:29:11
  he loves your gifts
• 1:29:12
  and he wants you to pursue those things and then she would she
• 1:29:18
  wouldn't like black
• 1:29:19
  out again but she would like she would say that thing and then
• 1:29:24
  start going through
• 1:29:25
  the like where am I yeah she would shift shift and have no
• 1:29:30
  recollection whatsoever
• 1:29:31
  of telling me that yeah no clue and you told her this after the
• 1:29:35
  fact I'm sure yeah
• 1:29:37
  yeah and she was usually so like you know even after she would
• 1:29:43
  get her senses about
• 1:29:44
  her again she still she'd be like what I can't I don't know I
• 1:29:50
  can't remember saying
• 1:29:52
  that to you and that happened to me twice and it was such it
• 1:29:57
  just struck my heart
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_01: directly yeah to the core how could it not yeah and
• 1:30:06
  and she still battles with this today and she gets really
• 1:30:12
  discouraged with it
• 1:30:14
  understandably and I always tell her Laura because I don't know
• 1:30:21
  if this was God's
• 1:30:23
  use of this in you but like this revealed God to me and I guess
• 1:30:30
  you could say this
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_01: may be my fault
• 1:30:33
  no I'm just kidding yeah however you like justify like oh the
• 1:30:38
  means to an end of
• 1:30:39
  like getting a hold of me wow but in all seriousness I try to
• 1:30:46
  remind her that and
• 1:30:48
  what I mean it could be the saving of my soul basically because
• 1:30:55
  of this experience
• 1:30:56
  SPEAKER_01: wow so that yeah the long winded that's a good answer right there
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was the best spiritual experience, right, of my life?
• 1:31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, the most, like, the greatest or most pivotal.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would definitely be it.
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta hang out with Noah.
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you and Noah would really hit it off.
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're both, like, very deep thinkers, love reading.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Did you go to your dinner...
• 1:31:25
  he did not he did not go yeah he so we went to Biola with him
• 1:31:31
  and then him and his
• 1:31:34
  wife we've known for a long time and he was a junior high
• 1:31:37
  pastor before the current
• 1:31:39
  junior high pastor before Mark was he the junior high he well
• 1:31:43
  Mark was the junior
• 1:31:44
  SPEAKER_00: high pastor a long time ago
• 1:31:47
  and that's when I met him that's like when we started going to
• 1:31:50
  the church like
• 1:31:51
  eight and a half years ago and then I was a leader with him in
• 1:31:55
  junior high for a
• 1:31:56
  couple years and then he moved up and then my buddy Noah I
• 1:32:02
  introduced Noah and Mark
• 1:32:03
  together and then they hit it off and then Noah got a job at
• 1:32:08
  PCC doing the junior
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_00: high
• 1:32:13
  and he's there now no no he hasn't been at PCC for three years
• 1:32:19
  yeah so he went to
• 1:32:20
  another church for a little bit and then he's now doing like
• 1:32:24
  associate pastor stuff
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_00: up in Santa Ana working with his father-in-law's church
• 1:32:30
  okay yeah so he was the last person that I interviewed and are
• 1:32:35
  again I can have
• 1:32:36
  these like five hour long conversations with him where it's
• 1:32:39
  just like we're talking
• 1:32:40
  about so many different ideas and stuff and it's sweet time but
• 1:32:45
  I'm glad that
• 1:32:47
  that's like one of the selfish things that I'm excited about
• 1:32:49
  with these and like
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_00: your willingness to record it is like
• 1:32:53
  like I'm really looking forward to like 20 years from now
• 1:32:57
  looking at this and being
• 1:32:58
  like oh wow I have like some very different ideas about how I
• 1:33:02
  think about these
• 1:33:03
  things or maybe it's the same or I don't know that is so
• 1:33:07
  interesting yeah these are
• 1:33:08
  like little time capsules yeah yeah do you have a question for
• 1:33:11
  our next guest I do
• 1:33:14
  for the next guest what is a project that you have been wanting
• 1:33:20
  to work on
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_01: and complete that you have not started yet.
• 1:33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, a dream project would be like a full-blown comic book.
• 1:33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: So writing, drawing, everything.
• 1:33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's stopping you?
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_01: And completing an entire comic book.
• 1:33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't have much free time right now.
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's, yeah.
• 1:33:44
  SPEAKER_01: No free time.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Believe it or not.
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_00: With two little kiddos.
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Believe it or not.
• 1:33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm excited about that.
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now that I know that, I'm going to keep bugging you about that.
• 1:33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 1:33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:33:59
  I know you've been keeping me in line in a lot of different
• 1:34:03
  areas of my life.
• 1:34:04
  I don't know if that's true,
• 1:34:05
  but I'm willing and I'm ready to if you want me to.
• 1:34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I got to think about that.
• 1:34:14
  What's a creative project or a project in general that I like
• 1:34:19
  haven't started that
• 1:34:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want to start?
• 1:34:21
  yeah okay or even maybe that you have started that you just
• 1:34:24
  haven't finished oh
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of those like the big