Latest / UK Column Radio / Jeremy Kuzmarov on the Rwandan genocide myth | Jerm Warfare

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Jeremy Kuzmarov on the Rwandan genocide myth | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:35
None. Jeremy, before we go any
0:40
further, I just want to give a hat tip to a mutual friend who
0:44
died a year ago. You were kind enough to put me
0:49
in touch with Keith Harmon Snow, who came onto my show, I don't
0:54
know, about a year and a half ago to chat to me about his
0:57
experience with the Rwandan quote UN quote genocide.
1:00
And thank you for putting me in touch with him.
1:03
And I hope that wherever he is now, he is out of that pain of
1:09
the cancer that eventually took him.
1:13
Yeah, Keith was a wonderful man and we really miss him.
1:17
And he was an amazing journalist who really got the truth.
1:20
You know, he travelled in many different African and Asian
1:24
countries and he got the true story.
1:27
You know, he he did the legwork, the groundwork, interviewed many
1:31
people and he punctured a lot of the myths that are promoted in
1:36
US and Western media. And he exposed the the Iranian
1:40
genocide fraud, basically the story that the Tutsi were the
1:47
only victims and that Paul Kagame with this, you know,
1:50
heroic figure who, you know, saved the country from the evil
1:55
Hutu genocidest. I mean, he told the the full
1:58
story really, was how the Tutsi had invaded, illegally invaded
2:03
Rwanda. I mean, there weren't, you know,
2:05
problems stemming from the colonial era have accentuated
2:09
the vision between the Hutu and Tutsi.
2:12
And the Tutsi aristocracy, I think, had been in power in the
2:15
colonial era by the Belgians and mistreated the Hutu and treated
2:19
them like slaves. And then when the country
2:22
achieved independence, yeah, the Hutu power revolution, then a
2:27
lot of the Tutsi were, were put into exile.
2:30
They, you know, then they, they, I mean, they had certain
2:32
legitimate grievances, but they invaded the country illegally.
2:36
And then Kagame was the one what, what Harmon Snow showed
2:40
was that, and there are others whose work he drew upon for this
2:44
with that was Kagame. You know, there was a peace
2:45
sharing agreement that was being worked out in the Russia in the
2:49
90s to end the civil war that had been triggered by illegal
2:54
RPF Ron and Patriotic Front of the Tutsi invasion that was
2:58
backed by the United States. Because what what, what, what
3:01
Snow showed also with that, the US and, you know, RPF began to
3:05
function as a USUK proxy and that the French had supported
3:09
the Hutu regime of juvenile Habra mana.
3:12
So it was really the great game playing out between France and
3:15
Great Britain and USUK had sponsored this illegal invasion.
3:21
And then Kagame, you know, Snow showed that it was Kagame who
3:26
shot down the aircraft of juvenile Habi Armana to
3:30
basically hijack these peace talks, which would have set up
3:33
some kind of power sharing agreement which could resolve
3:37
this conflict and led to an era of peace.
3:39
But the Tutsi wanted full control over the RPF, wanted
3:42
full control over the country. And that was the design of the
3:45
USUK and a lot of the killing, you know, the the Tutsi and RPF
3:51
forces committed a lot of the atrocities.
3:53
I mean, yes, the Hutu Inter Hamway committed atrocities
3:57
against Tutsi, but it was not just one side of the media
4:00
presented. There was atrocities on both
4:03
sides. And actually Kagame RPF may have
4:07
allowed lot of the atrocities to take place to exploit them for
4:12
propaganda purposes and that the goal was to take over the
4:16
country. And then they invaded the Congo.
4:19
You know, the USUK were intent on using RPF as a as a tool to
4:25
plunder the Congo and then open it up for Western corporations.
4:28
And so the Clinton administration and UK major and
4:32
Blair administration supported the RPF and Kagame invasion of
4:38
Congo, which caused millions of deaths and some of the worst
4:42
atrocities imaginable. So that's what, you know, Snow,
4:47
you know, that was the kind of overall narrative he presented.
4:50
And he had, you know, first hand interviews and he just kind of
4:54
challenged the mythology about the Tutsi, the good guy, the
4:58
Hutu, the bad guy, and showed the underlying geopolitical
5:01
intrigues. And he exposed the bankruptcy of
5:04
the Western intellectuals who just promoted pro RPF propaganda
5:09
and the story of the nature of the conflict.
5:12
OK, now as it happens, Jeremy, and I'm sure you'll agree with
5:16
me that the average Western doesn't care about Rwanda.
5:22
They don't even know where Rwanda is.
5:23
So for the sake of clarity, would you mind just quickly
5:26
giving me the official story so that we can compare?
5:31
OK, well, the official story was that.
5:34
Yeah, the RPF were presented in very noble light.
5:39
This is the Rwanda and Patriotic Front because the RPF had been
5:44
set up, you know, when the Hutu power revolution took root in
5:49
the late. 50s early 60s when Rwanda gained its independence.
5:53
The Tutsi had been elevated by the Belgians and treated the
5:56
Hutu very badly. So then when they gained their
5:59
independence, it was a Hutu power movement that took power
6:03
and expelled the Tutsi. Then they organized the Rwandan
6:07
Patriotic Front in exile in Uganda and Tanzania.
6:11
And I mean it should be acknowledged that the Tutsi were
6:14
often mistreated in those countries.
6:16
They were treated more like second class citizens and they
6:19
were, you know, they lived pretty marginally and
6:24
impoverished. I mean, I, I knew some Tutsi
6:26
refugees myself and they, they had a harsh upbringing.
6:31
So I, I can understand perhaps the desire to get back to Rwanda
6:37
and re establish, you know, their lives there.
6:39
But you know, they did carry on the legal invasion from Uganda
6:45
to invade, which was supported by the US government, which
6:50
poured in a huge amount of military support into Uganda,
6:55
whose government under Yoweri Museveni was supporting the RPF
6:59
and that's what triggered the civil war.
7:02
But that story, I think he has not well understood.
7:05
I think that the dominant narrative is just this kind of
7:08
simple narrative that the Tutsi of the good guys and these evil
7:12
Hutu forces, you know, spread anti Tutsi hate and massacred,
7:18
you know, up to 1,000,000 and Tootsie and perpetrated this
7:21
horrific genocide. And that Kagame led the RPF
7:25
forces to save the country and save his people from genocide
7:31
and establish democracy. I mean, Bill Clinton called them
7:36
great, one of the great men of democracy, yet he's been in
7:40
power for the last 30 years or something and has killed off
7:45
many of his opponents. You know, they have death squads
7:47
that operate even in European countries and murder people.
7:52
You know, he's murdered thousands of people, including a
7:55
lot of the dissidents. So yeah, the official story is
7:59
just kind of fairy tale. And yeah, I mean, you had this
8:02
movie Hotel Rwanda, which I think advanced a simplistic
8:06
narrative. And it does then look at the
8:08
larger history or the geopolitical intrigues and how
8:13
the USUK were using the the RPF for their own agenda to gain a
8:17
foothold in mineral rich Central Africa.
8:21
Yeah, and I mean, the idea is also that the Tutsis were the
8:25
minority and you know, the the Hutus would come after them
8:29
because they were the minority. But it doesn't quite work like
8:31
that because the Tutsis had a lot of waste and backing.
8:36
Yeah, that's true. And actually for my research,
8:40
what I found was that initially the US government actually
8:44
supported that and the CIA was supporting Javier Man because
8:48
the Tutsi were viewed as being backed by Communist China and
8:52
were seen as. Leftists in the 60s after they
8:56
they had been expelled in exile. And they were organizing into
9:02
guerrilla units and there may have been some support from the
9:06
Chinese and their leaders in that era were more left-leaning
9:10
and I think they had been supportive of a pro Lumumbus
9:13
rebellion in the Congo. So the CIA actually was support
9:17
and I have evidence from my book Modernizing Repression, which
9:20
was a study of Cold War era police training programs and
9:24
clandestine operation by the CIA based on.
9:28
A lot of the research in the National.
9:29
Archives I found documents on Rwanda where the CIA was
9:36
actually training directly Javier Mana, who became the
9:40
leader who led Rwanda from the Hutu leader from 1973 I believe
9:45
until his plane was shot down in 1994.
9:49
He had been the chief of police under the previous regime of
9:55
Gregoire Kayabinda, who was a Hutu leader and the CIA who was
10:00
training police forces in African countries.
10:04
They actually directly work with Habir man than when he was the
10:07
chief of police and then he became head of state in 1973.
10:12
But then a shift occurred because I studied government
10:16
documents in depth and went to different presidential
10:19
libraries. And what I found in the Reagan
10:22
library, there were documents where they were starting to
10:24
complain. The State Department was
10:26
starting to complain about Javier Mana that he was too, you
10:32
know, he was more, he was leaning more of the left and the
10:36
socialist camp by the 80s. And they said his government is
10:40
too much bureaucracy and it was just more of a state owned
10:44
economy with more, more. It wasn't purely socialist, but
10:47
it was leaning in that direction with a lot of government owned
10:50
industry. And the US was intent on, you
10:53
know, privatizing the economies of and and opening them up to
10:56
foreign investment. So they lost.
11:00
Affinity for heavier man who they had supported in the past
11:04
and I think they decided in the 80s and 90s to support the
11:09
Rwandan Patriotic Front in exile and to develop this scene to
11:14
take back the country and to use.
11:17
Rwanda as a platform for gaining influence because the big prize
11:21
of the Congo with all its mineral wealth and, you know,
11:24
diamond, the cobalt, the Colton, that's there's not that much in
11:28
Rwanda, very little. It's all in the Congo.
11:32
But, you know, in the Cold War, the US government had supported
11:35
Joseph Mobutu, who was a dictator who ruled in the
11:39
interest of Western, you know, mining corporations like this
11:43
guy named Maurice Templesman, who just died this year.
11:46
He was a big donor to the Democratic Party and was on the
11:50
board of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is.
11:53
ACIA cut out that spreads political.
11:56
Propaganda, he was on its board. He was a billionaire in the
12:01
diamond industry and he he owned Temples and Sons Diamond Company
12:06
and he worked with the De Beers Diamond Corporation and he had a
12:11
huge foothold in the diamond industry and and other mining
12:15
ventures in in the Congo. And he was very close with the
12:20
CIA and involved in the assassination of Patrice Lumumba
12:25
and was close with Joseph Mobutu and was liaison between the CIA
12:30
and Mobutu. It's the CIA fortified for
12:33
years, but then in the 90s, you know, Mobutu was got cancer and
12:37
was dying. So they had to think of the
12:39
future. Who's going to replace Mobutu
12:42
and give Templesman and his friends access to that diamond?
12:45
Well, so that's why I think they saw the importance of the RPF
12:50
having a proxy in. Rwanda that could, you know,
12:55
basically manipulate the politics because Rwanda invaded
13:00
Congo twice in the 90s, you know, after Mobutu fell.
13:05
And also they basically impose A quisling leader, Joseph Kabila,
13:09
who ruled Congo. I forget the exact years, but up
13:14
until pretty recently he was a long standing ruler in the early
13:17
2000s through the 20 teens. His real name was Hippoly
13:22
Kanambe. He was adopted by Laurent
13:26
Kabila, who was the Congolese leader, but he was actually a
13:30
Rwandan and he was viewed as a Rwandan quisling that was
13:35
imposed by these Rwandan invasions funded by the US and
13:39
UK, and he opened the economy he favored.
13:45
Western corporation as well as, you know, Rwanda and Uganda were
13:49
able to plunder Congo's mineral wealth for themselves.
13:53
And if you go to Rwanda, the capital is glistening.
13:55
You know, I mean, there's a lot of poverty in the country, but
13:59
there is an elite in Rwanda that has made out very, very well
14:04
from plundering the resources of Congo.
14:07
And that they basically. Had their Rwandan quisling
14:09
running the country for many years.
14:12
This guy Hippoly Kanambe and he was the new Mobutu and a lot of
14:17
the Clintons friends. Some of Clintons donors got
14:20
choice, you know, concessions and company like.
14:23
Barrick Gold that there were Clinton nights on the board and
14:26
George HW Bush was on the board of that huge mining corporation
14:31
and they got major concessions. So that that would be agenda.
14:37
But this is kind of lost, you know, the median air that never
14:40
goes into that aspect of politics and, you know, frame
14:44
this kind of simple narrative. Of evil Hutu and good Tutsi.
14:51
And really, again, the the atrocities, you know, the Tutsi
14:55
forces committed horrendous atrocities.
14:57
From the start, from the time of their illegal invasion from
15:01
Uganda in 1990, which triggered the civil war, up through their
15:05
invasions of Congo. And, you know, they haunted the
15:08
Hutu down in the forest claiming, you know, they were
15:10
all genocidest. You know, they use that to
15:16
justify massacring 10s of thousands of Hutu in the Fort
15:20
that they chased them out of the Rwanda and then massacred them
15:23
in the forests, horrific atrocities and forced them into
15:27
refugee camps and then starve them.
15:31
So we're talking about, you know, just horrific atrocity
15:35
than human rights abuses. But the human rights industry
15:38
was was so corrupt it only, you know, largely focused on the
15:43
Hutu crime and ignore these crimes that were sponsored by
15:46
the US and UK governments. The genocide claim is a myth.
15:53
There was no deliberate attempt for one tribe like the Hutus or
15:59
the Tutsis to wipe out the other.
16:00
What actually transpired was civil war that ended up with
16:04
just chaos across the board. Correct.
16:06
They tried to claim that there was a genocide.
16:09
Facts, you see, and we see patterns from other conflicts
16:12
where you. Have this disinformation and
16:16
fabricated evidence so in this case, you know we had the the
16:21
weapon false weapons of mass destruction false chemical gas
16:25
attacks by Assad Gaddafi false story that he's you know giving
16:30
Viagra to his troops so they would commit rapes.
16:34
So here the falsehood is this genocide facts they allegedly
16:38
found like 2 years later. And you know, there was no
16:42
evidence at the time of of applying genocide, you know,
16:45
because that's the narrative we get that this is, you know, I
16:48
mean the Nazis, there's the Wansee conference, you know,
16:51
that's the evidence that the Nazis had a plan for the final
16:55
solution, that they were going to take the Jews from the
16:57
ghettos and send them to the concentration camps and have the
17:01
gaze ovens. And you can point to this Wansee
17:04
conference where there was planning for this.
17:06
And you know, Eichmann was a key planner and that's why he was
17:10
put on trial in this. So in this case, they want to
17:13
claim that there was a genocide fax by some of these Hutu
17:18
leaders that shows this intent and plan to exterminate them.
17:22
But that was proven to have been a manipulated document of
17:26
fabrication. And I have an article where I I
17:31
discussed this and I, I can't remember all the details
17:35
specifically, but they they off the top of my head.
17:37
It's in that article I wrote. Because it's been a number of
17:40
years since I wrote it, but they they attributed to like it was
17:44
very shady like they attributed to this guy who is like a
17:48
defector or something. And then, you know, he ended up
17:52
getting killed or something. So it's just like the whole
17:58
story just was really fishy and was not.
18:01
And basically it was proven to have been a fabrication.
18:04
Make a Long story short that they fabricated this document
18:08
and there's no actual evidence ever besides this document that
18:12
was a fabrication and linked to this like Defector.
18:17
There's no evidence of any plant coordinated plan.
18:20
And then there's a fudging of the data because there's a group
18:24
of researchers, I think is at the University of Michigan who
18:28
did like, just analyze the census data.
18:31
And they start to scratch their head because the official store
18:34
was something like 800,000 tootsies killed.
18:37
But then they looked at the census data and there weren't
18:40
that many tootsies even living in the country because they had,
18:43
you know, dated from outside. And there were francophones,
18:47
Tutsi living in, in, in Rwanda by the Anglo Tutsis that had
18:52
dated from, from, from Uganda. But anyway, there, there weren't
18:58
that many Tutsis. So their data, they came to the
19:04
conclusion, you know as. Far as the numbers killed that
19:07
there were, you know, a fair number of Tutsi killed, but that
19:11
a lot of the people killed were actually Hutu.
19:14
So that challenged the idea of this Hutu.
19:18
If it was a coordinated plot of the Hutu to kill all the Tutsi,
19:22
why did more Hutu die? Than Tutsi.
19:26
If you just think about it for 10 seconds, it doesn't really
19:29
make sense. You suddenly in 1994 have this
19:33
unbelievable massacre that lasted two or three months and
19:37
then suddenly a new president comes in and then there's peace
19:41
and well, and Keith Harmon Snow pointed.
19:45
I mean, the Tutsi on their end that they have has certain,
19:48
according to his analysis, which I think well grounded.
19:51
And, you know, he's done a lot of research, as I pointed out,
19:55
that they had aspiration of kind of establishing a regional Tutsi
20:00
empire and hegemony. So they had their own ambition,
20:05
but then the US, UK had their own agenda which was to use them
20:09
to support that in some way. You can look at like Israel
20:12
because the Israelis have their own ambition to establish a kind
20:16
of greater Israel and the US has their own objective to use
20:20
Israel to expand their power and influence, a kind of proxy in
20:24
the Middle East. So the US has supported that
20:27
project of Greater Israel. And basically the US and UK were
20:31
supporting the project of a greater Tutsi empire.
20:35
And Kagame envisioned himself as this, you know, reincarnation of
20:39
the the ancient Tutsi king. Then he would preside over this
20:43
vast Kingdom, excuse me, extending into the Congo.
20:48
And the US, UK supported this idea because he's functioning
20:52
the kind of proxy for them. And he's allowing, you know,
20:55
he'll open up the Congo for Western corporations, which is
21:00
the real agenda. And you know, there was a study
21:05
that was done that showed that the IT looked at US foreign aid
21:08
to Uganda to prove how the US was supporting the RPF in the
21:12
late 80s, nineteen 90 at the time they invaded Rwanda.
21:19
The studies show that there was a huge spike in US foreign aid
21:23
to Uganda in that period, like a 200% increase in foreign aid in
21:27
the year in the late 80s into the early 90s because Yoweri
21:33
Museveni. And and that was I think part of
21:36
the USUK design because Uganda had been ruled by a socialist
21:40
leader, Milton Abbote in the in the 60s.
21:44
And then you had the interlude with Idi Amin.
21:47
And then Abbate came back in and, you know, he was more
21:50
leaning to the Soviet Union, China, socialist economy and he
21:55
wasn't an ally of the West. So the the USUK supported Yoweri
22:00
Museveni who fought the guerrilla war gains Abbate and
22:04
took control in Uganda in the mid 80s.
22:07
And then he was friendly to the RPF and and Kagame.
22:12
So he provide and Kagame served in Museveni's military
22:17
intelligence and he was known for torture, you know, in that
22:21
war against sabote forces. He was known for his sadism.
22:27
And there's a a book that shows that there was another leader,
22:31
the RPF named Fred. Wigiema, who was more.
22:35
Moderate and, you know, well respected, but Kagame had him
22:42
murdered according to this book to take control over the RPF and
22:46
was just an evil man and, you know, Machiavellian and, you
22:52
know, some consider him the worst mass murder.
22:54
You know, if you tabulate the number of deaths.
22:56
I mean, he's killed a lot of his own, you know, dissidents and,
23:02
you know, sent death squads to kill them in other countries.
23:05
And I mean, he's invaded Congo. You know, he's killed numerous
23:08
heads of state. He may be one of the most
23:11
murderous leaders the world has ever seen since Adolf Hitler.
23:15
So we should acknowledge that. And he's taken out numerous
23:19
heads of state, invaded Congo numerous times, preside over,
23:23
you know, they, they had to set up open air crematorium because
23:27
they were killing so many Hutu, you know, So that's the level
23:31
we're dealing with here. And yeah, the Museveni was
23:36
backing his invasion because, you know, they're kind of very,
23:41
it's still Rwanda and Uganda. I mean, they, they both been in
23:43
power for decades now, Mussa Vanian and Kagame, and they've
23:47
been very close. And they collaborated on
23:50
invading and plundering the Congo, which has brought a lot
23:52
of wealth to both those countries.
23:54
So Mussa Vani had his own plan and he was using the funneling
23:58
the US foreign aid to to the RPF to strengthen them and prepare
24:04
them to take over the country. So that was a long plan of the
24:08
US empire and British and then Kagame and Museveni had their
24:13
own agendas. You mentioned Israel earlier and
24:16
you mentioned Congo. Israeli forces were spotted in
24:21
Congo and we know that. What's his name?
24:25
Roger Winter was working alongside A Mossad agent.
24:29
Kimcha, is that right? Yeah, that's right.
24:31
David Gimcha. Well, what I found in my
24:35
research into the history of the CIA was that the CIA developed a
24:40
program called Operation KK Mountain with the Israeli
24:44
Mossad, which Mossad was basically set up by James J
24:50
Angleton, a famous CIA agent. And was basically an offshoot of
24:55
the CIA because Israel has function as a proxy of the US
24:59
empire in the Middle East. Yeah, I don't believe some
25:03
believe Israel manipulates U.S. government.
25:06
Personally, I don't believe that.
25:07
I think Israel was used. For its own purpose of the US
25:11
empire, there are actually elements in the US government
25:15
who had been against the US supporting Israel because they
25:19
felt it would anger other. Arab.
25:21
Countries and jeopardize US relation with Arab countries and
25:26
US ability to access and exploit Middle East oil such as James
25:32
forrestal and Kermit Roosevelt, but they lost out an internal.
25:38
Bureaucratic struggle and Israel was used as US proxy and they in
25:43
the Middle East and they developed the operation KK
25:47
Mountain, whereas the Israeli Mossad did a lot of dirty
25:51
operations for the. CIA so that the the US could
25:55
take a, a kind of basically, what's the term distancing the
26:00
public, you know, the public doesn't want to think they're
26:02
taxpayers are being used to support these vowel
26:05
dictatorships in Africa. So they they use the CIA, you
26:09
know, to keep it hidden. But on a deeper level, they
26:12
distance it even further by using the Israelis and setting
26:16
up this Operation KK Mountain. So Israeli Mossad does a lot of
26:21
the groundwork. The under KK Mountain, the
26:24
Mossad sent operatives to train Mobutu and his forces and they
26:30
even directly trained Mobutu in parachuting.
26:34
He had direct lessons from Mossad operatives and Mossad
26:38
operatives were helping to build his security apparatus under
26:42
this Operation KK Mountain. And they went into other African
26:45
states, like in Cameroon for instance.
26:48
They supported the vile regime of Paul BIA, who's now the
26:52
eldest. He's 92 years.
26:54
Old and he just got re elected. He'd been running Cameroon in
27:00
the interests of France and other foreign interests since
27:03
the early 80s. And the Israeli Mossad also
27:07
trained his security apparatus and it was some of the same
27:10
people who had been in Congo training Mobutu.
27:13
So this was a logical extension of the Operation KK Mountain,
27:19
that Mossad operatives were training and working with Kagame
27:23
and Museveni to fortify those governments which were proxies
27:28
of the US and UK. And you can argue, I think
27:32
within the Zionist movement, because I'm, I'm Jewish, I know
27:37
a lot about the Zionist history. Some would regard how Israel
27:42
evolved as a complete betrayal of the the Zionist movement and
27:47
the idea that Jews who had been persecuted in Europe should have
27:50
their own homeland. But they allowed themselves, the
27:53
Israeli leaders allowed themselves to be used as a proxy
27:57
by and outside power of the United States and became
28:01
involved in all these dirty operations and kind of tainted
28:05
the whole Zionist project in many ways.
28:09
And then we see that imploding today with a huge percentage of
28:13
the world and many Jews just shunning Israel because of the
28:18
The Dirty things it's been doing.
28:20
And this has been going on for a long time.
28:22
A root of it is that it allowed itself to be basically hijacked
28:26
by a foreign power and, and to do The Dirty work for that
28:29
foreign power, the United States.
28:32
And that's seen in the Operation KK Mountain, which is is
28:35
documented. And, and if you, there are a lot
28:38
of documents at the National Archives which discuss the
28:42
Israelis in Africa and how they're coordinating with with
28:47
the CIA. And there are books like Leslie
28:51
Cockburn or the good book on the relationship between the CIA and
28:56
Mossad called Dangerous Liaison, which is a very good book that
29:00
was written in the 90s that documents what I'm discussing
29:04
this operation KK Mountain. But so I think what you're
29:08
saying with the Kagame and the Israeli role is an extension of
29:12
that Cold War operation in the movie Hotel Rwanda.
29:15
The hotel manager, the the real person, I always butcher his
29:21
name. But I think it's something along
29:23
the lines of Paul Recessa Bagina.
29:27
He was arrested by the Kagame government recently and jailed
29:34
for 25 years because he was critical of Kagame.
29:39
Absolutely. Yeah.
29:41
And it showed how the official narrative was a kind of myth and
29:45
that the Kagame was a very vicious government that turned
29:48
on a lot of its own. And you see that in other
29:51
totalitarian governments. So sometimes in revolutionary
29:54
governments, as they evolve more totalitarian instructors, they
29:58
start turning on their own people, you know, who supported
30:01
the revolution at the beginning, and then they have them killed
30:04
or throw them in jail. So, yeah, this exemplified the
30:09
totalitarian character, the Kadiyami regime.
30:12
And he had Rusev Bagina, who was a national hero.
30:15
I mean, I think there's some elements of the official story
30:18
that are true. I mean, there were, you know,
30:21
Tutsi who were haunted down, you know, in the context of the
30:24
Civil War. And I knew because I was when I
30:27
was a student in in Boston, I was a student, a graduate
30:31
student in Brandeis. And I had a lot of friends from
30:34
Rwanda. And my roommate was student at
30:37
Harvard who was a Tutsi, and he grew up in exile.
30:43
And yes, I met people who were victims.
30:46
I mean, their stories were legit.
30:48
You know, they were legitimately victim.
30:49
These were Tutsi who were victims.
30:54
So, you know, some facets of that story is true.
30:57
And there were heroic figures who tried, like Rusabagina, who
31:00
tried to save people on both sides because as we discussed, I
31:04
mean, there was a lot of killing and there were Tutsi victims,
31:08
but there were also a lot of Hutu victim.
31:09
And it wasn't just black and white.
31:11
One is bad, the other is good. They were killing on both sides
31:16
in a civil, an ugly civil war. And there were heroes who tried
31:20
to save innocent civilian like Rusubagina.
31:23
And then, yeah, he's ends up, you know, because Kagama, you
31:28
know, stayed in power so many years and was doing so many
31:32
terrible things. And I think he started voicing
31:35
some criticism. And so he was kidnapped and
31:38
imprisoned. And by that point, he wasn't a
31:41
young man anymore. And he had some health issues.
31:43
And he's an older gentleman, and they're imprisoning him while he
31:47
had these health problems. And he's a national hero.
31:50
And it took a major effort, I think, to, I believe he got
31:52
released, but he was in prison for a number of years.
31:57
And that kind of that did get, you know, broader awareness that
32:01
all was not right in Rwanda and that this simple narrative just
32:05
didn't make sense. And I mean, I think now Kagama
32:08
gets a lot more negative press coverage, and there's more
32:11
awareness that this guy has dictatorial tendencies and has
32:14
done a lot of terrible things. But for years he was presented
32:19
in the media in the most fawning way, you know, up until
32:24
recently. And I mean, he's been the
32:28
president since 1994. Exactly what kind of.
32:33
And you know, Bill Clinton, pray, you know, gave this speech
32:37
and he said there are three leaders who represent the new
32:39
face of democracy in Africa. And and two of those leaders are
32:43
still in power now. You know, he gave this speech 30
32:46
years ago or or more. And two of the leaders are still
32:50
in power, Museveni and Kagame. And the third was Nelson Taway
32:56
of Ethiopia. Also, he was accused of genocide
32:59
against an ethnic minority group.
33:02
And he also was in power for many years and, you know, was
33:05
accused of major human rights crimes.
33:07
And if you look at Kagama and Museveni just have a absolutely
33:12
abhorrent record. I mean, Museveni has been
33:14
compared to EDA mean or worse, you know, a lot.
33:17
There's a book I have by Helen Epstein, who's a very good, I
33:20
think a British journalist who did some good reporting on
33:23
Uganda about all these, you know, you know, people who got
33:27
killed, who were, you know, standing up to Museveni in some
33:30
way. And then they died in a car
33:32
accident and the scene was, you know, covered up.
33:36
And they were all kind of suspicious deaths of Museveni's
33:40
opponents. And then, you know, Museveni was
33:43
involved in these invasions of Congo that caused thousands and
33:47
thousands of deaths and immiseration of the population
33:50
of eastern Congo and mass rapes of women.
33:53
And he was also, he attacked. In fact, the northern Akoli
33:57
people had supported northern Uganda, had supported Abbate,
34:01
his opponent. So he took reprisals against the
34:04
Akoli people and Ugandan military had been accused of
34:08
genocide in the northern Uganda. And it's documented.
34:13
Adam Branch is a British academic who lived in Uganda and
34:16
wrote an excellent book about the Akoli war, documenting the
34:20
horrific crime that that Musaveni's government.
34:23
And then Kagama. Yeah, there's a book by Judy
34:26
Revere was a Canadian journalist who interviewed all these people
34:29
and she documented the in a lot of detail how these RPF death
34:34
squads were operating in foreign countries to assassinate
34:38
opponents of Kagame as government.
34:40
And they've been, you know, I think a lot of the opposition
34:43
leaders have been jailed. Like there's this lady Victoire
34:46
Ingebere, and she's tried to run against Kagame in various
34:50
elections and she's been jailed for over a decade, I believe.
34:55
So, you know, great democracy. Bill Clinton, you have the
35:00
Rwandan Patriotic Front that were the actual primary
35:04
aggressors. It's an inversion of the Hotel
35:07
Rwanda story. The Kagami militants, militia,
35:10
whatever, were backed by CI AM I6 Mossad.
35:16
Why? Very simply, they used them as a
35:20
proxy to gain more of a foothold in the Congo, which had been
35:24
ruled by a western US proxy, Joseph Abutu, up until the early
35:30
90s. And that's when he got cancer.
35:32
And he passed away in 1994. So the US is kind of worried how
35:40
are we going to retain influence in the Congo and control the
35:43
diamond Well, so they carry, they concoct the Sheen of
35:46
supporting the RPF. And as you point out, Roger
35:49
Winter was a key CIA agent who worked under the cover of
35:52
refugee relief program. And he had worked with with the
35:56
and he was honored by Kagame, you know, on the 20th or 25th
36:01
anniversary of the genocide. You know, they had this big
36:05
ceremony in the National Stadium in Kigali.
36:08
And Kagame gave a medal to Roger Winter.
36:11
And he was a CIA operative and he had mobilized the Kinyawanda.
36:16
He had actually funded, you know, the CIA funded Kinyawanda
36:19
journals to agitate for, you know, more aggressive RPF and
36:27
you know, the Tutsi program, I guess to try and unite the Tutsi
36:31
diaspora and to get them to Marshall funding for the RPF.
36:35
But to get them to, you know, the some of the journal the CIA
36:39
was sponsoring, Winter was involved with organizing
36:42
conferences and getting CIA funding for the journal was I
36:46
guess teach youth about the kin Rwanda history and culture so
36:52
that they would be supportive of the RPF.
36:57
And it's dream because I think they viewed Rwanda somewhat like
37:01
the Jews viewed, you know, Israel kind of Holy Land that
37:04
they had been expelled and thrust into exile by the Hutu.
37:08
And they had, you know, traditionally dominated, been
37:11
the kind of dominant force going back generation more of an
37:15
aristocracy. So they were used to holding the
37:18
upper hand over the Hutu and they couldn't accept, you know,
37:22
being subordinate to them. But yeah, the CIA role was to
37:26
fund these journals and then to funnel weapons and support
37:31
through Uganda. And yeah, the the agenda was to
37:35
use them as a proxy to gain control over the Congo after
37:39
Mobutu passed away. And France, you know, France,
37:43
the Hutu government had been drawn close to France.
37:46
So it's, it's part of the old great game rivalry.
37:49
They wanted to muscle out France, assert their control and
37:53
gain access to the mineral wealth of the Congo.
37:57
Is it still in the West's interest for Kagami to be in
38:02
power? Yes, it is.
38:06
That's why he's he's still in power even though he has been
38:10
exposed as a fraud. And now there are articles you
38:14
can find that would document that he has committed a lot of
38:17
human rights abuses and that clearly he's not a model
38:20
Democrat. You know, nobody's going to say
38:22
that anymore. But I mean, if you if you look
38:26
up, you know, the State Department has a website that
38:30
that catalogued the amount of economic and military aid that
38:35
the US provides to any government in the world.
38:38
So look up Rwanda and you'll find that the US is still giving
38:41
a lot of support to Rwanda despite of this.
38:44
And they're still giving a huge amount of support to Uganda
38:48
where under Musa Vani, who's still in power, this is Idi Amin
38:53
type leader. And I know the US has direct
38:56
military bases in Uganda to carry out operations and they
39:01
may have military facilities in Rwanda as well.
39:04
And that's actually one of the myths of the genocide is that
39:07
the US was a bystander to the genocide because in fact, the US
39:11
was supporting RPF throughout from funding, financing.
39:16
Them. When they were in Uganda to the
39:19
US actually sent in troops into Rwanda just in the month that
39:25
the genocide was occurring. And the troops real purpose was
39:29
to ensure that the RPF gained control over the country.
39:34
You know, it was claimed that it was some kind of humanitarian
39:37
mission, but there there were U.S. troops there at that time.
39:42
And then military aid to Rwanda was and that's something I
39:47
detail in my book on on Bill Clinton Warmonger and the
39:50
chapter on Central Africa. The Clinton administration
39:54
provided a lot of military and intelligence support to the
39:59
Kagame government. Right after the genocide and
40:04
after he consolidated power in the country and that equipment
40:09
was used and the US was actually there were special U.S. special
40:12
forces there and they were assisting their one an invasion
40:18
of Congo on the pretext that the RPF had to hunt down the Hutu.
40:24
You know, who were all because they labeled the entire
40:26
population. The way they frame this genocide
40:31
enabled them to label all Hutu as responsible for the genocide
40:35
of the Tutsi. And that justified basically
40:38
mass extermination of the Hutu. And that was also used as a
40:43
justification for invading Congo and installing leaders that were
40:49
pro Rwanda and pro US and UK. And the first leader they
40:54
installed, Laurent Kabila, was too independent.
40:57
That's why they ultimately installed this guy Joseph
41:00
Kabila, who was adopted by Laurent Kabila but was actually
41:05
a Rwandan named Hippoly Kanambe. And he ruled basically as a
41:12
Rwandan quisling from the late 90s through the late 20 teens.
41:17
Kagami is getting old. I mean, what happens next?
41:23
That's a good question. I, I'm not sure.
41:26
I'm sure they're planning, you know, they always plan well in
41:29
advance. So and what you find in a lot of
41:32
like in in Uganda, for instance, I did an article on that and
41:36
there was, you know, the US is still heavily supporting the
41:39
Museveni government. But they're also like Ned has
41:42
programmed National Endowment for Democracy, but they're also
41:46
supporting the Ugandan opposition by this guy named
41:50
Bobby Wine because they want to Co opt the opposition.
41:53
And you know, Bobby Wine is not really very progressive in many
41:57
of his positions. Now in Uganda case, yeah, I mean
42:01
he has faced persecution and some of his supporters, but he
42:07
has a very vapid political program.
42:10
He basically would, you know, continue same kind of neoliberal
42:14
formula and allow, you know, he doesn't have a Pan African or
42:18
socialist, you know, vision. That's what the, the the CIA and
42:24
US and UK governments are gains. They they want to make sure the
42:28
opposition does not become led by socialists or pen and Pan
42:33
Africanists. The reason?
42:34
Because the socialists would nationalize industry and
42:38
establish national control. Over the resort.
42:41
Either a socialist or more left-leaning with a left-leaning
42:44
economic program of, of reestablishing economic
42:47
sovereignty and trying to develop in the in the industry
42:52
on their own terms. And the Pan African vision of,
42:56
you know, that was the vision of Kwame Nakuma and Julius Nyerere
43:00
and other leaders of the 60s and 70s who wanted to eat.
43:04
What's that? Gaddafi.
43:05
Yeah. Gaddafi.
43:06
That's why they took out Gaddafi.
43:08
Yeah. Because they wanted to unify the
43:11
African states so they could strengthen their economy and,
43:17
you know, together, work together, as you know, and build
43:22
their economy and establish control over their own economy
43:26
and establish strong military so they can combat any Western
43:31
interference. And that's what the West does
43:34
not want. So they'll Co-op the opposition.
43:38
They'll they'll support the Bobby wine type who not a a
43:41
leftist or a pan Africanist who's just the kind of, you
43:46
know, he doesn't really have much of A vision.
43:48
He's just against the dictatorship.
43:51
And he has a following among youth.
43:53
He's a hip hop artist. And I mean, he's a cool guy and
43:57
you know, people like him personally.
43:59
And so he has a big following and, and social media and stuff.
44:03
So that's the guy there because he doesn't have this, this
44:06
larger vision. So they, they went when
44:08
Museveni's time is up and there may be a, you know, Museveni, I
44:12
think is trying to groom his son Hosey, but he's got a really
44:16
tainted record. You know, he was spearheading a
44:19
lot of the atrocities of Congo in northern Uganda and is known
44:23
as a brutal guy. So I don't know, you know, so I
44:26
mean, the, the, the CAA and US, they're smart.
44:29
They they realize the stakes here.
44:31
So they're, they're covertly supporting the opposition and
44:35
they could build them up as time goes on.
44:38
So I imagine the same thing is going on in Rwanda.
44:41
I mean, I don't know. We don't get any news about
44:43
that. It's it's, it's really a
44:45
totalitarian society there. I mean, that is, yeah, one of
44:49
the most oppressive governments. You know, there's no dissent at
44:52
all. So it's hard.
44:54
You know, there really is no opposition to Kagami.
44:56
The main opposition are in jail, like Victoire Ingabiri is in
45:01
jail. So I don't know who.
45:03
And there was a hip hop, I did an article, there was a hip hop
45:07
artist who's getting a lot of following in Rwanda.
45:11
He was a very talented singer and he, you know, had some
45:14
lyrics critical Kagame and he was murdered.
45:17
So I mean, they're murdering any I mean, that's going, I think
45:20
beyond Uganda is also totalitarian.
45:24
But there is some, you know, underground descent and it's
45:28
it's it's repressed to some extent, but you know, it's
45:31
there. But Rwanda, we don't hear much
45:34
because they're, they're being jailed, they're being killed.
45:38
So I, I don't know, you know, Kagame is probably trying to
45:40
groom his son. You know, his son went to
45:43
Harvard. From what I understood, his son,
45:46
you know, they're not that intelligent.
45:48
Like Kagame didn't have a college degree and his son
45:52
failed at Harvard. You know, he was not the best
45:55
student at all. So these aren't the brightest,
45:58
but they're just the most ruthless.
46:01
And, you know, he may be trying to bring in his son.
46:05
And I don't know what, you know, if there's no strong opposition,
46:08
I don't know what the US government will do.
46:10
They may go go along with his son if, you know, he's still
46:13
serving certain US interests. And then there's, you know,
46:16
China. The equation is that Congo, you
46:19
know, is is drawn somewhat close to the China.
46:23
And, you know, China has huge, you know, interests and
46:25
investments as far as in Africa, in the mining industry.
46:29
And China has become much more popular than the West because
46:33
they actually, you know, develop a lot of infrastructure in
46:36
Africa. They build many, many things,
46:40
stadiums, roads, ports, railways.
46:45
Yeah. So I mean, more and more African
46:48
governments are are turning to China.
46:50
And so the US and UK are losing the great game.
46:54
So they're more and more desperate to cling on to some of
46:59
these kind of leaders who have served their agenda for years.
47:02
So whoever Kagame tries to groom as a successor, the US may go
47:08
along with. And I don't know if there would
47:10
be a revolution because they've thoroughly crushed any
47:12
opposition and driven a lot of the hoodoo out of the country.
47:16
And exterminate. I mean, that is genocide that
47:18
they've exterminated a lot of the Hutu.
47:21
So how could they take that power back when they've been
47:23
exterminated, driven out of the country and completely weakened?
47:30
That's another interesting side fact.
47:33
I mean, China is remarkably sovereign.
47:37
Most African countries are not. Well, that's true, yeah.
47:43
And I mean, there is AI spent a bit of time in Africa,
47:47
particularly in Zambia. And yeah, there's a much
47:51
different attitude toward China compared to Western, you know,
47:55
colonial power, the white power like the United States, because
47:59
of China's history of the and and yeah, I think you were
48:02
making a point in our discussion earlier that China's is
48:05
completely misunderstood in Western countries.
48:08
And I mean the Maoist revolution, whatever its flaw,
48:12
it was viewed as an authentic nationalist anti colonial
48:16
revolution in a lot of the world because China had been neo
48:20
colony of Great Britain. And that was what and and you
48:23
know, China was humiliated. It was the century of weakness,
48:26
you know, in the 19th century when they China became a neo
48:29
colony of Great Britain. And that was the underlying
48:32
purpose of the Maoist revolution was to overcome that century of
48:37
humiliation and establish their sovereignty as a country and and
48:41
stand up to outside powers. And you know, the the
48:44
nationalists that the communists fought were supported very
48:47
heavily by the United States, Chiang Kai Shek.
48:49
So Mao was an authentic revolutionary hero in a lot of
48:53
the so-called third world and countries subjected to
48:56
colonization. And then China from the Maoist
49:00
period invested a lot of money in supporting development
49:04
projects in Africa. So like in Zambia, the Chinese
49:09
helped build the Tanzanian Zambia Railway.
49:12
So the attitude toward the Chinese are much more positive,
49:16
although it was some negative from my experience staying there
49:20
in the mining sector, the Chinese enforced didn't uphold
49:25
very high Labor Standards. They they brought some of their
49:29
own laborers and when it came to the local laborers, there was
49:32
some very bad workplace conditions and there were some
49:35
incidents of, of minor and African being killed that
49:40
aroused some anti China sentiment.
49:43
However, overall, there still is a certain respect for China.
49:48
And then what China's doing now is that they are putting a lot
49:52
back in, although they take out a lot of the mineral wealth.
49:54
And you know, ideally Africans themselves would have control,
49:59
you know, complete ownership and control over the mining sector.
50:03
However, if you compare other, you know, different foreigners,
50:08
the Chinese reinvest a lot of the money.
50:11
And so like in Zambia, they build a beautiful athletic
50:14
facility. They upgraded the railway,
50:17
they're building roads. And I know it's, they're doing
50:21
that everywhere throughout Africa.
50:24
So it's it's, you know, there's not bringing a lot of goodwill
50:28
and tour, you know, there's much more positive attitudes.
50:32
And so that's what I say they're they're the US is losing the
50:35
great game because the US doesn't do the same thing.
50:39
You know, they they don't advance those kind of projects
50:43
which bring real improvements to the society.
50:48
I mean, the US is known for building all these drone bases.
50:52
And that that is just an for African, that symbolizes like an
50:55
ugly return to a past colonial age.
50:59
We have this foreign white country putting these horrific
51:03
drone bases in their country and it show that they they've
51:07
compromised their sovereignty and it's fueling instability and
51:12
and violent cycles. You know, the US War on Terror
51:17
has just fueled the growth of Islamic terrorism and
51:21
destabilized a lot of countries like especially in the northern,
51:26
you know, Horn region like Somalia, Kenya.
51:29
And some of these countries are experiencing problem with
51:32
Islamic fundamentalism that they never had had before, including
51:36
in in West Africa. And that's, you know, studies
51:39
have shown that terrorism has spiked massively because of the
51:43
US War on Terror and the drone attacks.
51:48
So the attitude toward the US is very, very negative.
51:52
Whereas China, there's some mixed feelings, but there's a
51:56
lot of positive feelings because of the history and because of
52:00
the tangible development projects that the Chinese
52:03
support. It's still we're still living in
52:07
the remnants of the colonial era and a lot of the African economy
52:11
are still dominating and the major wealth is being siffened
52:14
out of Africa. Into these, you know, huge Anglo
52:18
American corporations and yeah, that's I think at the root of
52:25
their one in conflict is to try and maintain that control.
52:28
And you know, central, yeah, South Africa and the Congo are
52:31
the 2 richest countries in Africa as far as their mineral
52:35
wealth. I don't know if you know about
52:37
the huge airport that the Chinese helped built in
52:42
Ethiopia, probably one of the biggest airports on the
52:44
continent, and it's acting kind of as an African version of
52:48
Dubai. Well, absolutely.
52:50
And this is bringing tremendous progress and development to
52:53
Africa and it's creating a huge number of jobs.
52:57
And I think that's why we're seeing this hysterical US
53:00
reaction to China because China's winning, you know, the
53:04
the great China's winning the great game throughout the world.
53:07
And the US is losing. I mean, the US US has waged all
53:10
these wars in recent years that have been rooted in lies that
53:15
have caused huge amount of death and destruction. the US society
53:20
itself is coming undone. It's been plagued by mass
53:24
shootings, home record home, you know, homeless rates,
53:27
approaching depression levels. You know, there's a level of
53:31
social breakdown. Within the United States and
53:34
people around the world can see this and they can see also how
53:38
China, as you were saying at the beginning, is is blossoming.
53:42
You know that they have very efficient public transportation.
53:46
The quality of life of Chinese is improving dramatically every
53:50
year. And you know, the Chinese
53:52
government has helped lift millions out of poverty.
53:56
So the US is losing the great game.
53:59
So how did they respond? Through a huge military buildup
54:03
and advancement of the xenophobic rhetoric and
54:08
threatening China with the World War and building up military
54:12
base in Pacific islands to provide the infrastructure for
54:15
potential war on China. But it's going to fail.
54:18
I mean, war is politic by other means.
54:20
If the US is losing the the political game, they're not
54:24
going to win the military game. And China is very advanced
54:27
military technology superseding the United States.
54:30
So the United States would be. Wise to look at China, some of
54:35
the. Good thing that is done and try
54:38
and emulate it and to to live in the reality and to adapt because
54:43
the United States still has a very strong economy.
54:47
It has well trained workforce and and good universities and it
54:51
has abundant natural resources. So it's best to harness China's
54:55
economic growth to its own growth to try and work with
54:59
China for. And that's what Xi Jinping
55:01
proposed about 8 or 10 years ago.
55:04
He called for a win win strategy of cooperation with the United
55:07
States, and that would be the best approach for the US to
55:11
follow. Unfortunately, since the Obama
55:15
administration initiated the pivot to Asia that the US is
55:19
going in the opposite direction of encircling China militarily
55:23
and threatening it with the war. But and related to Africa, more
55:28
and more African countries were turning away from the Western
55:31
orbit. You know, we see that in Burkina
55:33
Faso and in Western Africa where there were a number of coups
55:38
against pro Western puppet type governments.
55:44
And they're trying to reassert their autonomy and reassert the
55:47
old Pan Africa's tradition and the kruma and the Arere Thomas
55:51
Sankara. Those are authentic African
55:55
revolutionary leaders. Who are all overthrown by the
55:58
West, but they are viewed very positively in Africa.
56:03
And I think they'll be a new generation and this generation I
56:06
think will be more, you know, will be able to withstand
56:09
Western pressure better because the West is is in decline.
56:13
And so again, my advice in the West is that we should adapt to
56:18
the new world order to try and sustain more prosperous economy
56:22
and society and and the path of imperialism in the warfare state
56:26
have not served the interest of the American public.
56:30
That's perhaps another discussion, but has not served
56:32
the interests well of the American public as well as these
56:36
countries that have been plundered like we've been
56:37
discussing like Congo or these war that have been provoked by
56:41
these kind of imperialist policies.
56:43
Because there was a possibility in Rwanda there was a peace
56:46
sharing agreement. The urusha hordes that have your
56:50
mana was willing to abide by that could have.
56:52
Averted all this bloodshed. Some kind of power sharing
56:56
between Hutu and Tutsi and it was avoided the bloodshed and
57:00
that extended into Congo. So the moral of the story,
57:05
Jeremy, is when you watch how Torawanda understand that it's
57:10
typically Hollywood fiction infused with a little bit of
57:13
truth. So when it starts off by saying
57:15
based on a true story. Yeah, well, and I think one of
57:19
the. Moral is that the unfortunate
57:21
thing is it feeds this kind of innate racism in the West.
57:25
Oh, look at these African savages killing each other like
57:28
that. And you know, and you know if
57:31
you don't understand the prodigy of politics, if you don't
57:34
understand the you know, the way that the US and UK were involved
57:38
in manipulating this conflict and the way that it would
57:41
distort it, then you can easily revert to these kind of
57:45
stereotypes. And so that's why you know,
57:49
education is important beyond just watching a movie on this
57:53
topic and hopefully the education system.
57:56
I think that's one of the failings in the US as well, is
58:02
not just the media and Hollywood, but the education
58:06
system should better educate youth about African political
58:11
reality and about the role that the West has played in
58:14
destabilizing a lot of the African countries.
58:17
But that is very rarely covered adequately.
58:22
Even in universities, I think you wouldn't get any.
58:26
Very few high schools cover it at all or with any adequacy, and
58:31
unfortunately very few universities.
58:34
And that's the subject maybe for another show, but I've done some
58:37
shows and articles on how the CIA and U.S. government agency
58:43
has taken over a lot of higher education in the teaching of
58:48
political science and history is often distorted.
58:52
And there are only a small number of, you know, good.
58:55
A lot of the professors are denied tenure or fired if they
58:59
teach the truth, true story and the true history.
59:02
So that's, I think, part of the tragedy.
59:05
And then the Western public just reverts to certain racial
59:08
stereotypes over and over again. How can my audience follow your
59:14
work? You can follow my work at Covert
59:18
Action Magazine, www.covertactionmagazine.com or
59:24
my sub stack, Jeremy Kuzmarov at Sub Stack Too hot for the
59:28
mainstream media. And I also have a podcast and
59:32
show on radio that has its own sub stack called Uncontrolled
59:37
Opposition. And you can go to my website,
59:41
jeremykuzmarov.com, and that has my books.
59:46
Jeremy Kuzmerov, thank you for joining me in the trenches.