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What Happens When You Stop Trying to Control the Outcome? · Imagine The Good

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're tasting your next goal, but you can't remember the last time you felt truly present or fulfilled.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're surrounded by people yet somehow still feel alone.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: You've built the success you were told to go after, but you quietly wonder, is this all there really is?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then this podcast is for you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the good.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So here are your hosts, Jason and Robin.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Imagine the Good Podcast.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Robin Maher.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Jason Gorland.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: In the words of Goethe, trust yourself, then you will know how to live.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Today we're going to dive into the topics of self-trust, surrender, and acceptance.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's a really important topic, and there's a lot of places to go.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we lived it.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: We all live it, and we look forward to it.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean we lived it with this episode, correct?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: You want to tell them?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: You want to no, you can fess up.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'll fess up.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: So this is supposed to be about letting go, surrender, trusting, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And this is our second time doing this episode because we did it already.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: And when I took it into the editing format, I realized that I hadn't clicked the audio button, which is awesome, and didn't record.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we had video of hands moving and mugs lifting and mouths moving with no sound.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had to tell you that uh, yeah, sorry, that didn't work.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so here we are, trusting that the second time we'll be better.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I am.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: I enjoyed the first one, and my initial reaction was frustration, agitation, disappointment.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: And within about five minutes, I'll laugh at the paradox of doing an episode on trust, surrender, and allowing, and have the audio disappear.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it was definitely an in-the-moment practice of live what we speak.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So here we are.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: So take two.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Why is it hard to trust at times?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think is a question that brings up issues of control and the element of it's just human nature to feel vulnerable when things are uncertain.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so separating out the difference between acknowledging we live with uncertainty, what is mine to do, what can I influence, versus uh gripping on to things.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: And we tighten when we have uncertainty because we care about something, we care about the uh outcome or something that is precious to us.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a natural proclivity to be concerned when we don't know what the outcome will be.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: And yet when we take action that is aligned with a deep sense of trust that I will be okay, it's not trust that everything's gonna work out the way I want it to.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's I can live with what is, I have the ability to show up, do my best, and live with the consequences of what may come.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where I don't know, maybe it's a guy thing, maybe it's the fixer part of us, but that's the piece that I find the hardest is wanting to fix something, control something, have it work out just so in a predetermined way, and and latching on to that outcome.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then when it doesn't go that way, there's an immediate disappointment, frustration, all the things you described.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and yet, when I can step back, especially later on, and you know, as I'm a little bit older, the ability to step back and watch is greater than it was when I was younger, right?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: And when I can step back and watch, the outcome invariably is better, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because I am not, as you say, over gripping, trying to control too much.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm allowing the process to produce what that process should produce in all likelihood.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: And man, oh man, that took a long time for me to come to was the notion of trusting process, of trusting that the results invariably will reflect the process and effort that went into garnering those results.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a major mind shift for a lot of people.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and and I think it's a skill.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And when you can adapt that, when you can make that part of your, I don't know, DNA, your MO, whatever, I think you're better off.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think life becomes more enjoyable.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think you become better at manifesting the things that you that you want to produce, that you want to come to fruition.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Is that fair?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think practicing surrender and letting go gives us feedback.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: How does it work out?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: And you're just saying that when you've allowed yourself to let go and trust, relating to a previous episode of process versus outcome focus, you felt that you showed up in a way more aligned with how you want to be in.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't a scripted intention.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like invariably, those younger moments where the the one I referenced was the first time I ever well, I think the first and only time I ever experienced flow state in a race.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And reason being was because there was no projected outcome.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: There was no expectation because there were so many variables, it was hard to predict are we gonna win this race?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Are we gonna get our doors blown off?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: What's gonna happen?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was almost, as you say, there was a letting go of expectation.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, okay, let's just give her and see how the cards fall.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: And best race ever.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was such an amazing race.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And sure, we won and it was yay and all that kind of stuff.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: But when I reflect on some on the most enjoyable race of my rowing career, that one is head and shoulders above all the others.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Even though perhaps I won some things that were more distinguishable or more worth celebrating, that race experience is the mountaintop for me.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: If I could have bottled that and made it an indicator of, okay, you need to do this on purpose, I just think my rowing career would have been different.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the part is that the letting go happened as a byproduct.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: It I didn't go into the race thinking, okay, I just need to let go of the outcome, and I'm gonna trust whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen, and it's all gonna make sense and giddy up.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: That was not the process.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and yet, if that was the scripted process, if we were taught that, that when we embrace that sort of mindset, we set ourselves up not only for a better performance or better outcome or whatever the performance is.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be sport, it can be performing arts, it can be business, it can be parenting or couple or relationships, doesn't matter.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it's unfortunate that we don't necessarily I don't know if teach it is the right word, but that it's not part of the mainstream thought process or I don't know.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know what the right term is.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's part of wisdom traditions.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, there you go.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: So why isn't it mainstream wisdom traditions?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, and maybe it is in some places, some pockets.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, I think for both of us, uh sport is a space that fosters self-awareness and growth, uh, that's the richest part.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: What do you learn about mind, body, spirit integration and how you the lessons you want to continue to live with beyond competition and athletic performance?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, the the after the 92 Olympics competing in Europe, having a compromised immune system, getting sick and injured repeatedly, and being told it could take years to get back to international competition.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: So sometimes life brings you there's a big question mark on uh results.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I need to decide how I want to show up and focusing on being present and making the most of the journey was a letting go of Ocome and deepening awareness of my body, being attuned to that, being responsive and leaning into that.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: So there were qualities of presence and just seeing what is possible.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that was a deep lesson in trusting and surrender and acceptance.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how this is gonna work out, but I know how I want to show up.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so from and from I'll just kind of jump in there.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: So from a physiological standpoint, right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: What did that letting go open up?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like what was the impact on your body?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, in at the beginning of our race from what the one I was talking about, again, I didn't do it on purpose, but what did it change from a physiological standpoint?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Having a thought of, okay, screw it.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't control this.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna just trust whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: What does that do to us from a physiological standpoint?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: If you think about well, what it what that speaks to is how trust is also somewhat state dependent, because when we are in a state of safety, then our physiology is supported to function the way it's intended for us to be at our best.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: If we're in so much fear and threat of, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: If we're in a fight, flight, or shutdown response, we compromise our physiology, we compromise our creative thinking capacities, our problem solving.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: We're not at our best in when fear is elevated and we're in a hypo-aroused or hypo-aroused state.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: That optimal window of performance, which relates to what Dan Siegel in the field of interpersonal neurobiology referred to as the window of tolerance.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: There could be fear, but it's not overwhelming our physiology in ways that the brainstem, the emotional centers, and the neocortex, they're all communicating, able to function the way they're intended, taking information from the body and then deciding how do I need to be in this moment?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: What how what's going on in my environment?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: What is life asking of me?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: And how can I need that?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: So cultivating practices that facilitate the ability to trust in our own capacity to handle what is before us and to be okay with what is a practice that fosters and feeds resilience and capacity to perform at a higher level.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, what I find so incredibly frustrating, enlightening, and a few other things in there is that this Dan Siegel stuff runs absolutely counter to the messaging that I grew up with.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: So every time, doesn't matter what sport it was, it was a threat state, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: The fear was of losing.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so that window of tolerance, window of what you call it.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: So he refers to it as the window of tolerance.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: I refer to it as the optimal zone of performance because that's where our best performance lives, our physiology.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, according to what you're saying, what this Dan Siegel guy figured out, is that if you are in a threat state, if you are preoccupied with what could go wrong and what losing would mean or could mean, you are in that hyper-arousal.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: People can respond differently in terms of it's not just Dan Siegel.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's a group of practitioner scientists in who've written and researched extensively in the field of social neuroscience that talk about our response that's also grounded in relationships to being in the world, adapting to threats and challenges, what supports emotional psychological safety and well-being.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so unfortunately, your experiences in sport were not just mine.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say the majority of people are you know, athletes or performing artists or whoever, business, employees.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I grappled with that as a younger athlete as well, having knots in my stomach full of anxiety and thinking, I don't want to live like this, this is not fun.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: I need to find a better way.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, I also had messages though of support.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here from you, I think of my coach Bernie Chisholm as a teenager, just solid and steady, and that was tremendously helpful.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: And with my parents, the message was show up, do your best, and have a good time.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: They, you know, be good to other people.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: But there was common sense, fairness, decency in the messaging.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I still felt anxious before races and nervous in ways that I eventually learned how to work with that more skillfully.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I find it interesting that regardless of what sport I moved from, I mean, obviously landing on rowing as my predominant sport.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Almost regardless of the coach, the message was losing was wrong, don't lose.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you almost went out not to win, but you went out not to lose.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so you were performing under the threat of what it would mean to lose.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and look, that can be incredibly motivating.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: It worked for me for my entire career.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: But when I think what might have been possible if I wasn't constantly in a threat state, if I wasn't sort of spinning at a higher, you know, if my mind wasn't just on fire all the time, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: The anxiety you talk about.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And what might have been possible, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: When I think of that race, that flow state moment came as a result of not feeling threatened.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, what might have other races been like, in particular our Olympic final, if the threat of losing had been purposefully taken away and we were invited to get into a place where, hey, you know what?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: You might lose today.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: But you might not.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do, okay, that's gonna suck, but it doesn't mean you're a bad person.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: It just means you got beat by a better crew.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if someone had had that conversation with me, I think it would have allowed me to be more apt to letting go of the fear of losing.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And as you say, just going out and trusting that the training and the process and all the work we've done to get there, and just saying, okay, let's go after this best we can.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: And whoever comes across the line first, good for them.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: So there's some sadness that it you you taste it, what it felt like to be free to free to be and see what's possible.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: By accident.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: By accident, and you lived with the fear of failure rather than free to fail, free to be your best and see what's possible.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's a sense of loss that wasn't accessed as a young athlete.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, sure, I figured when I met you and figured that out and came to it later in my coaching, and I made it an on-purpose conversation, the idea of trusting.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I mean, in fact, there's a the story that comes to mind of where I was still in process was what, 2004 at the national championships in St.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Catharines, Ontario, and coaching a crew, a very good crew, very fast crew.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And before one of our heats, the Coxie, who would have been what, 16 years old, maybe 17 years old, came up to me while I was by myself going over the boat and said, Hey Jason, I think you need to calm down a bit because your energy, your anxiety, your fear, you didn't use the word fear, is palpable and it's affecting the rest of the crew.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And first of all, good on them.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if when I was 16 years old, the idea of going up to my high school coach and telling him to chill, not happening.
• 17:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: But in the end, what a gift that young kid gave me.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because, yeah, I sort of went for a walk, got my proverbial poop together, and just came back going, what the hell was I thinking?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Of course they can feel this energy.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And what it says, the message behind that energy is I don't trust you to race the way you're capable of.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so if I don't trust you, then how on earth are you going to trust you?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so, boom, that was it.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was literally an on the dime moment where I came back to the group completely resolved that I'm gonna have some fun today and I'm not gonna get freaked out over whether we win, lose, or draw.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna do what I can to support this book.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: That was a moment in my coaching journey that changed everything.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Alex helped you have perspective.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the realization of my thought process, my energy affected those around me.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And if I wasn't gonna trust or be comfortable or confident, then they would feel that.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it was infectious, it was in contagious.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so, why on earth would I want to put that sort of energy into a crew that's just ready to go out and race?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's ridiculous.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: It comes back to me that to the how we be is what we give.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you brought your awareness back to wow, I'm rippling stress, yes, emotional contagion of anxiety.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately a distraction for the crew, an interference.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, that was the last time.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was a powerful lesson from a young teenage boy.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so forever grateful.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: And as you say, it's not just sport in business, fear of failure.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: What if this goes south?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: I remember first starting my practice being terrified that if I messed up I could hurt someone, and how paralyzing that was for me.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And a legitimate concern, goodness, right?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and how powerful learning to let that go and trust that I would offer a space that helped people connect with their own wisdom, their own knowing and their own inner truths, and that by being present to my own uh intention and ability, that I would help hold a space for them to come forward in their best.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: And the more we practice that, right, the more we can access it within ourselves.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's an ongoing learning.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the you know, the the legendary story, if you will, or pushback on that would be Jimmy Patterson in his days as a car dealer.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he still owns car dealerships, but you certainly wouldn't find him on the lot.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the story goes that at the end of each month, the lowest guy on the totem pole, the person who sold the least amount of cars, got canned.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so you talk about a pressure cooker, and for sure it's going to produce results.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't sell cars, I'm losing my job.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: I lose my job, I can't support my family, on and on and on.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: So tremendous amount of quote-unquote motivation to sell cars.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I guess for me now is the question is how sustainable is that?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: At what point do people start to fall victim to that kind of pressure?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And does the fear of the threat at some point did they just become numb to it and say, screw it, fire me, I don't care.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't do this for very long.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I find so attractive, if you will, about this notion of letting go, of trusting, is that it's a sustainable form or uh tactic or strategy that doesn't involve a whipping stick that you would use on yourself.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: And If you think of coming again, coming back to the physiology, a regulated nervous system has the capacity to stay present and tolerate uncertainty.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: They can feel someone can feel disappointment with a collapse, remain relational but adaptive and then ask what's the next wise action that I can take to respond to this situation when it's appropriate.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: So when we allow, accept, and surrender and move into trust, it's not just an idea, it's partially our state.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because if we're swinging off the rafters terrified with the physiology of disconnection, disassociation, we can lose touch with ourselves and lose our minds physiologically, lose access to our deeper knowing and thinking.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: So how we befriend and tend to the body is important in considering being anchored in trust, surrender, and allowing.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: When I think about being in the classroom, so when I was teaching graphic design, visual art, what have you, and the impact of trust on the students, the story that comes to mind for me there is one that's quite opposite of the one with Alex and the rowing crew.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I was teaching at a school here in Victoria.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think it was a grade nine class, typical grade nine class.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So a couple of characters in there, and uh teenage boys.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a mischievous age age time, and I was the same way.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was this one young fella in there who uh he had a reputation, okay?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So a little bit of a troublemaker, but not you know, not serious trouble.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: He just had a mouth on him and he did stupid stuff, he made poor decisions.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: So one day I'm I get called down to the main office.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: I forget why, maybe pick up a package, something.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: But for some reason, I had to leave the class.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm on my way out of the classroom, and I tell the class, I'm just gonna go down to the main office for a few minutes.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be back shortly.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: While I'm gone, so-and-so, the young boy who was the troublemaker, I'd like you to be in charge.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like you to keep an eye on the class.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what's interesting was I can still picture the look on this young kid's face when I pointed him out amongst the entire class.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, first of all, the look of shock.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then you it was like he grew about six inches, and just his, you know, this I won't say ego or pride, I would say almost he became comfortable in his own skin in that moment of wow, maybe there's a part of me that no one's ever called upon before.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna show up to this request.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I go down to the office, do my thing, come back to the classroom a few minutes later, walk in, beautiful.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's no paint fight going on, there's nothing.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's working, stereo hasn't been changed, the volume's the same, it's all good.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't ask how did things go, but as soon as I walk in, the young boy goes, he says, you know, Mr.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Dorland, just so you know, everybody was well behaved, everybody worked, and you know, and I think I did a pretty good, and I just like okay, and and I was just matter-of-fact about it.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Yeah, well, I know, of course it did.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: I trusted you, you know, to do the right thing, to do the job.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And in that moment, you could feel what it was like in this young boy to feel trusted.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm guessing it might have been one of the first, if not the first time in his young teenage years that an adult had entrusted in this young guy.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: And the impact was palpable of what it did for him.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: It was it's really cool.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'll never forget that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's beautiful, and what it speaks, your trust in him allowed him to expand trust in himself.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a huge part of if we have early life experiences where we're seen, we're known, and people trust our goodness, we have that inner reference reflected within us by others, and it makes it easier to have trust and surrender and allowing.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: If our life has been chaos where we're not seen, we're not trusted, then this might be further down the line to develop that with more resources as an adult.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: But having those moments as children and in our youth are foundational to help have that reflected.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the interesting thing was he was a different student from that day on.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: He was when he came to class, I just experienced him differently.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what's coming to mind now, imagine if on my way out the classroom I had chosen one of the typical kids who, you know, just lily white, never do anything wrong, typical student that everybody chooses to be in charge.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine if I chose them and said, and make sure you keep an eye on so-and-so, because I don't want you screwing up and getting in trouble or causing a ruckus.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine if it had been that message of you're not trustworthy, your reputation is this.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's why he showed up to that reputation, was because he was reminded time and again that he's a bad kid, he makes bad choices, and he's disruptive.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: But, and I'm not patting myself on the back here, but in the moment that I reversed the story and invited him to be something else, he showed up to what I to my expectations.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you take that and you expand it out of that classroom into the workplace, onto a playing field, into a classroom, it doesn't matter, into a family.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: When we invite people to show up trustworthy, maybe we invite a different part of them, as opposed to the threat.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you do this, blah blah blah blah, you know, like it just has a different vibe.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is that going somewhere?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: We trust people who trust us.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: And there's lots of research that shows that in education, especially the expectations of teachers and their view of the students has an impact on how they perform as students.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's consistent with that.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm not surprised.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I saw it in Living Color, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: It happened right in front of me.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: So but anyway, I'll never forget that moment.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it was you know, was I nervous?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure, it's nervous.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, because yeah, he was a little bugger at times.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, on that day, I don't know why, but I just felt like screw it, I'm gonna choose this guy, and let's see what happens.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: And sure enough, it was awesome.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was awesome.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: But this idea of uh letting go, of trusting, it's you know, it's too bad we come to it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, for me anyhow, we come to it later in life.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: As you say, earn wisdom, I forget what the term what you gave it, but uh lived wisdom.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I kind of wish I'd had that wisdom as a younger man because life could have been less bumpy, more productive, more fruitful, all of it.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it's not part of the general mainstream narrative.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think social emotional learning and education is placing more attention on relationships, and as a byproduct of that, there's a natural outcropping of find the good in people and support it and nourish it.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: But well, here we are with this podcast, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine the good.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: So and what what we when we're talking about trust, acceptance, surrender, allowing, we're not trying to imply that it's easy because uh oftentimes when there's trust and letting go and surrender involved, it's because there's been a loss uh or we didn't get what we want.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: And we're dealing with something deep.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: So having compassion for ourselves when and not bypassing grief when there's been a loss to allow space for that to be experienced in the body, to be witnessed and then you know, inviting reflection, what is mine to do?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: What is not mine to do, what can I not control?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: Other people's reactions, you know, uh the final results, and what quality do I want to bring to this, regardless of the outcome?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: Who do I want to be in the way forward?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: So inviting an exploration of living with a sense of agency, care, excellence, and you know, devotion, humility to this is hard, and how do I want to show up?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, I mean that that uh absolutely points to the strategy we use in our coaching around failure, where how you know asking someone in the face of adversity, asking yourself, how can this be the best thing that ever happened?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: So after you've experienced the you know, the disappointment, the what have you, the stories, the victim, the all like that whole uh array of of emotions that can go with failing.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: I know for myself, if I take it to my Olympic final, you know, it was denial, it was being pissed off, it was shame, it was the whole the whole gamut.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: What I where I didn't get to was the reflective piece.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, what I've learned now is if someone in, you know, not in the moments after the race, but maybe in the weeks after the race, if someone had come up to me and said, you know, have you thought about an exercise where you explore how can losing in your Olympic final be the best thing that ever happened to you, and sat me down and taken me through that process?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: I would have arrived at answers that would have kept me in the sport because it would have provided next steps, right?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: It would have been information.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what's the information in that loss that you can utilize as the catalyst to make changes for the next quadrennial so that when you go back in 1992, you've addressed what went wrong in 1988.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I was so hung up on the story that got created in the weeks following that final that I never got out of the story.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so boom, burnt up, done, over, never to row again.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: You didn't know how to make sense of that process.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because of the emotion, because of the emotion.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: But if someone had had the wherewithal to make losing simply be information as opposed to an identity, to all the things I made it mean, it would have been beneficial.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: It would have been, okay, so how do we address your strength training?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: How do we address your technique?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: How do we address the mileage you're putting in?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: How about diet and sleep?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: How about the rigging?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like it would have been going through the checklist of all the things that could contribute to a better performance four years later.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I couldn't get out of that hole of you're an Olympic loser.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And wham.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: You felt stuck.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely stuck.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: And now there are more resources available to athletes uh to support working through stuck places, emotional processing, psychological preparation.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: So there's more in place now than there was during your earlier.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: When I think of athletes who have embraced the notion of moving on, I think of Roger Federer, right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: He gave a speech, uh, I forget, within the year, anyhow, at a big school in the US.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And he talked about his career.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh what 1,500 matches played, I think won 80% of those matches.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: But the crazy stat out of that is that he only won 54% of his points in those matches.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: 50 almost half, like just a little more than half, which means that in all likelihood, he could win a point, lose a point, win a point, and and so having the ability, as I did, to not make losing the point mean that you are fill in the blank, like that wasn't part of his process.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: He had lots of practice at letting it go.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what he says in the closing remarks that were that I found so powerful is when it's behind you, it's behind you.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: And if you just let that sink in for a second, like when he's lost a point, there's an acceptance of oh crap, I just lost a point.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I can't go back and change that.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna let it go and I'm gonna focus on the next point.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I get stuck on the last point, it's gonna get in the way of my ability to win the next.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a powerful mindset.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and it's a useful skill, and you practice that over and over again.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we can have that skill that's domain specific.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: So he might be awesome on the courtway back in his relationships.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: He might have a hard time letting go of the argument he just had with his partner or his child and loop of, oh, I should have shown up better, or whatever.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: So sometimes our life situation isn't as tidy as uh a tennis game.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's messy and hard.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: But self-trust grows when we repeatedly keep small promises to ourselves, accept you know, the circumstances, learn from the experience.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then that even though these circumstances might not be what I choose, how do again, how do I want to show up?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: We recover agency after we've accepted what is, then we can explore what's for me to do.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: So but there's a very uh embodied experience of that, and noticing when we tighten to an experience, can we uh become aware of that and be with it, and then just you know, whether the words say allow or we we take a breath and breathe into that tightness and remind us that okay, this is how do I want to be?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: Can we relax into the resistance and allow it to move through us so that we can bring our awareness to our intention and align those, or to put it in layman terms or dog terms, and I love this because this is uh my tea coaster from my sister.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And uh learn a lesson from your dog, no matter what life brings you, kick some grass over that crap and move on.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's lovely, isn't it?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's like if if you know that should be across the forehead, or we should sticky note that on our bathroom mirror every day, so that you know we can just remind ourselves, okay, yeah, I'm gonna kick some grass on that crap, and I am I'm just gonna keep moving forward.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: It conjures up a very strong visual of uh the grass lying on the ends of their feet.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: And uh you can't help but uh lighten up a bit in the face of something.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that moment of laughter, lightness, what have you, can be a conduit to the letting go.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: When we can laugh at the absurdity of circumstances, you know, I certainly uh in the moment wasn't able to laugh at losing an Olympic final, but when I think back now, yeah, it conjures up the notion of head shaking laughter at my reaction, my next few days, weeks, months, years, and just the are you kidding me?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: And how easily I could have changed that trajectory if my sister had given me this coaster way back in 1988.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: But um I don't know that it would have been enough.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's fair enough, it probably would not have been enough, yeah.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: But the message is there, right?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: That don't get too hung up on what we have deemed as uber important, and as you say, to gain some perspective.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: So speaking of perspective, how about that moment?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, right there in the photograph, people can't see it, but from 25, no, it would have been more than 25 years ago.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: It would have been when was that 90 seven right?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: 97.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: We walk up, well, we hike up Black Mountain with our firstborn, Ike, our daughter, our golden retriever.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I pulled out that ring and I asked you if you want to spend the rest of your life with me, or together, I think I said.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh you talk about a moment of trust, right?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like for me, anyhow, that was oh my goodness.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it could have been a long, lonely hike back and quiet hike back to the car, but there was a letting go of in me of well, if not now, then when?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: And like what am I with what's what's the sign that I'm waiting for here?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: And there was absolutely a trust.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, the whole constellation around that moment had uh layers of trust.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: I I uh for several weeks I obviously I said yes, but for several weeks after that I was worried that what if it doesn't work out?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but even backing up before that, the world championships were in Athens in July in 97 before that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: And we had a happy relationship, but I knew for myself that a happy relationship.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: What the hell was a happy relationship?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: A healthy, happy relationship, okay, good fun, loving, caring.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Caring, you bet.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was an awesome relationship.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: So but uh I knew for myself, you knew you wanted children, and I knew I who I had children with would determine if I wanted children, right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because I wanted it to be a shared experience.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: But also I wasn't thinking about that, but I knew it was a question I needed to answer.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: I love children, I wanted my life to impact them positively, but I had to answer the question Am I going to have children?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: before I knew whether I could say yes to you.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: And we weren't talking about marriage, but when we were in Athens for the world championships, I took some time to meditate on my different roles as I was doing some life planning.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was doing a meditation about that, and somewhere within me the word mother came forward in a knowing.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't me deliberating on it, it just came as a knowing.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I I knew in that moment that I had my answer and then I was dreaming about rings.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so anyhow, that was all rather curious.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then I come home from Greece and uh we're planning to go down to California.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious about a university, uh, we're visiting friends, and you want to do a hike up Black Mountain before we head off.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so that backdrop was interesting and allowed me to say yes, but then fear set in, sure, and I was like, What if it doesn't work out?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I had had a pattern of feeling that I was responsible for other people's happiness, and that felt like a lot to carry.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so that is a lot to carry.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: So a couple of weeks later, you're like, What's up?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: What's going on?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I say, Well, I'm afraid it's not gonna work out.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: And you say, Well, maybe it won't, but we give it our best shot, and that's all we can do.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: And in that moment, I felt free to go for it with you, and that I wasn't carrying I felt a commitment to love and celebrate you and uh serve your soul and your humanity, but I felt free for you showing up as a partner in that, not carrying it.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it was a beautiful moment because I didn't question after that at all.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: It was liberating and it was.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Moment of an example of receiving support and how trust can also have a dimension that we're embarking on something with support with and allowing uh ourselves to accept that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it may not be the you know, a marriage per se, but even in work settings or uh hard life situations, are we allowing ourselves to receive the support we need?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's different dimensions to trust.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: Are we trusting the path forward?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: Are we taking in the nourishment we need to have the resources you know letting go is part of it that we've talked about?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then having the courage to go into stillness with depth to know our truth and to walk the path that feels most aligned with our values and who we want to be.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, on Father's Day, 25 years later, here we are.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: So and it hasn't been all rose.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, goodness, there's been work, there's been bumps, there's been all kinds, there's been it's been a typical journey, I think, of any couple, any marriage.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: But as we were joking before we hit play or record, in 25 years, you know, my love for you, boom.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: A hundred times.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, I just didn't know you don't know what that's gonna feel like when you enter into a commitment to one other person.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: You think, yeah, I love this person a lot, but you don't imagine the like lengths of which it can grow over a lifetime together.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: And not that we're done, but well, it makes me think of uh June Caldwood uh George Stromalopoulos.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_03: He did an interview with her in her final months before she passed of cancer.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: And June Caldwood, for those who aren't familiar, was uh a celebrated social justice worker in Canada that was very devoted to her work and community, and she talked about the long marriage and just how the good stuff came, the really good stuff came towards the end in terms of the tenderness, uh lived life and the preciousness in that time.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: So when we were talking earlier, I was reflecting on her sage observations in that time.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: I can I would agree.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: So on that note.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks everyone, and hope you've enjoyed this.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you have, please like and subscribe, tell your friends, share it, and uh we'll look forward to seeing you again next time.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for joining us.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: See you next time.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's it for today's episode of Imagine the Good.
• 46:59
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• 47:04
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• 47:20
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