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The Intersection of Hair Care and Mental Health with Dr. Afiya Mbilishaka · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is your host, Ekta.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have such a wonderful guest today for you guys.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited to be talking about the topics that we're gonna cover today.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Dr.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Afia M.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Bili Shaka, who is here with us in collaboration with Maui Moisture, and she is going to talk to us about some very cool stuff when it comes to just how we look at our hair and our psychology as it pertains to hair.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the show, Dr.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Afia.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so honored to be hosting you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited to chat with you today.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Likewise, likewise.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love to get started with learning a little bit more about you and your background.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you're truly a leader in this amazing um, you know, new movement around just the psychology of hair.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really want to learn about your background and what got you into, you know, really kind of uh talking about this and raising awareness around this topic.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I I've loved doing hair my entire life.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I uh would be my family's hairstylist and was responsible for caring for my sister's hair, even though she's older than me.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um that definitely translated to my college life where I would have these mini pop-up salons in my dorm room at the University of Pennsylvania.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just enjoyed the process of hair care.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was not a business-minded and never charged anyone for doing hair, but I just enjoyed it so much.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I also was a psychology major um at the University of Pennsylvania.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember facing a dilemma and talking to my aunt Brenda on the phone one day and telling her, I don't know if I should go on to study psychology or hair.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Well, why can't you do both?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think she was telling me to do both at the same exact time, but that's the way I didn't thought, hmm, I can integrate hair with therapy.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to sit at that intersection of hair and mental health.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the birth of psychotherapy.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually had the opportunity to go on to get my master's and PhD in clinical psychology and open up my own private practice for therapy and became a professor.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went to hair school.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a unique experience of entering hair care sort of already as a psychologist where Elon spaces.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really, really cool.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually did biopsychology in undergrad, and I used to always wonder about, you know, why aren't we talking about psychology and beauty more?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why don't we really bring up topics?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really glad that you actually did this because I think this is something that, you know, for me, just during this podcast, it's come up a lot, you know, as I've interviewed hair care brands and like the topic of hair comes up, obviously, in the beauty industry.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, no one is well versed in psychology to be able to talk about this.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to get started on that note, you know, and really kind of ask you could you define psychoherapy for us and what is it and how can we as consumers understand it?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So psychoherapy is using hair as an entry point into mental health care.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this really includes training hair care professionals about mental health first aid, but it also includes teaching therapists and mental health professionals about hair to how to actually use hair in their clinical work.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a reciprocal relationship between mental health professionals and hair care professionals, which ultimately impacts clients, whether it's hair clients or therapy clients, to be able to talk about this psychologically significant part of our bodies and our identities.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to really working with on the hairstyle end, the salon end of things, what does that really entail?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or what were maybe we could start with like what are some misunderstandings or maybe some things that you've had to kind of work through when you're getting with people in this and making trying to talk about this topic with salon experts or hairstylists?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about that, some topics that come up.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because in training hair care professionals about mental health, I think there's oftentimes a myth that therapists are supposed to solve every problem.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're give lots of advice, but that is not what therapy is.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I I think some of my therapy clients wish therapy was at points that I cannot give any answers, that the ultimately the person has to come up with the best solution for themselves.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And because there isn't mental health training and cosmetology programs, stylists often think that that it's all about advice giving.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's one of the biggest challenges that I have to face to tell people that mental health isn't just advice giving.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, like what are some of the things that you're asked the most?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Some questions that come up a lot for you.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest thing, probably a stress, stress management.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's interesting because our hair can really indicate when we're overwhelmed and stressed.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I know that um a stylist that I had been working with for years would look at my hair sometimes like, uh-oh, what's going on in your life?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's interesting then how stress becomes a big topic in the hair care world because we know there's a relationship between hair loss and stress and things like that.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: I read a statistic by Dr.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yolanda Lindsay that about 47% of black women, for example, will experience some form of hair loss in their lifetime.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just makes me think about well, what are the stressors that could be leading to that and getting to the root of those things in terms of self-care and proper nutrition, exercise, drinking enough water, all these different things that impacts our mental health and the growth of our hair.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually very interesting.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me think of actually like the cultural significance, also, right?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think with hair, as far as like, you know, my personal experience goes, I don't know if anyone can relate that's tuning in, but for me, hair has always been so culturally tied in, you know, to my daily life.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people, I think, when we look at hair, we all have our own personal journeys with it, right?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, like when it comes to that, I would love for you to speak on the role of cultural identity and personal expression through our hair and just share some insights on that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I actually had the opportunity to study racial identity and cultural identity in graduate school.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so there we define identity as an internalized and evolving story of self, basically who you say you are and the stories that you tell about yourself.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think hair is such a complex language system that hair can talk about some of our lived experiences and our identity, where we're from, our cultural traditions, our religious backgrounds, just even like our professions, that hair can really speak to those elements of identity, gender identity, all these different factors that make up who we are.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that we again speak through our hair and can tell its own story.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely completely resonate with that, actually.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially with like racial identity, definitely.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think for me, for a long time, and a lot of my friends I know and colleagues have actually had this experience as well.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I am Indian, you know, my by heritage.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so my hair, I've always had such crazy comments.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people always have crazy comments.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, you know, your hair is either not straight enough or it's too straight or it's curly.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like they have these like preconceived notions of what different ethnicities, like what your hair should be like, you know?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just it's crazy when we think about that.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we all walk around with this predisposed idea of what we think someone should look like, you know, with their hair.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that always, you know, imprints onto our own view of ourselves when we're like looking at our hair and playing with it and trying to figure out what's gonna look good on me.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll tell you, for example, you know, I know a lot of us are seeing the Hailey Bieber Bob is going around right now, right?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone wants that fun short hairstyle.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Some of us can't rock it because your hair doesn't go with it, you know?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think things like that, like it just comes back to like understanding, you know, like what is my hair's culture and like what is the stuff that I need to be aware of as far as like what's looks good on me.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are your thoughts around that?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like in terms of just popular culture and the way hair is portrayed and our relationship with hair.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's making me think about a term one of my research students developed called unrealistic advertised norms.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So unrealistic advertised norms and this concept that the media really can influence what we see as hair trends, but sometimes our hair can't do those hair trends in terms of that that it's, you know, this is beautiful and this is attractive and this is what you should want.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: But our hair can sometimes reject it.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's also a term by Dr.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Evelyn Winfield Thomas.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: She's a psychologist, and she has created the term hair stress that basically we have physical and psychological consequences when we force our hair to do things that it doesn't want to do, whether it's a certain color or a certain style, your hair will get upset and leave you even at points, um, or you'll feel really stressed about it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes me think about again that sometimes there is this ideal of beauty, and I'll even say sometimes a white ideal of beauty about how hair is supposed to be long and straight or even blonde.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: But when your hair isn't long, straight or blonde, there can be some cognitive dissonance if you think that that's that standard of beauty.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so a big piece of what psychotherapy does is to teach people how to honor the hair that grows naturally out of their heads.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Which the fact that that has to even happen is a bit disappointing that I have to teach that.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, how society really shapes us with conditioning us to see something as beautiful or something as unattractive.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, it's so interesting what you said.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree with you that it's it's kind of crazy that we have to like teach this, but you're so right.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that just by living, you know, we are just trained to fall into like boxes and then cut learning to come out of that box and understand like individualism is especially with hair, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like understanding yourself as an individual, understanding your hair's type, what it requires, what it, you know, all of those things.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a whole journey.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always wonder, you know, when it comes to like the salon side of things, you know, when you go to your hairstylist and you show them that photo, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Of like, this is the kind of hairstyle I want, like what goes through their mind when they're looking at your hair and thinking, hmm, can I really create this, you know, with this type of hair?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to, I want you to speak a little bit towards our salon specialists that might be listening in, you know, what can they really take away here that could really help them with their skills and then as they're working with their clients, you know, in this realm?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the number one skill that hair care professionals should have is to be a great listener.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes I I think again, even for me, learning to be a therapist, I struggled in learning how to listen.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was a hard skill.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's something called active listening that I teach uh that includes summarizing, paraphrasing, understanding body language, sitting with silence, and creating ultimately a shared understanding.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's the point of good communication to create a shared understanding.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so it can be quite healing when your client feels fully understood and heard, uh, whether it is from showing an Instagram post of a particular hairstyle and having a conversation around it and maybe saying this can't happen, but also understanding their why.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why do they want to look, you know, have this certain look or what experiences have they had in the past?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: What are they anticipating coming up?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: But really being able to actively listen and engage with clients even outside of the creative aspects of doing here.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love that.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you said listening.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that we can all take a page from that book is that just being able to listen more.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I agree with you.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I'm not gonna lie, I've had moments, you know, in the chair where I do show pictures and I'm like, and my stylist has been, you know, I I remember very distinctly a few years ago, I had a really great stylist who was very much like, Ecta, you're being unrealistic, you know, like this will never work with your hair type.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I it did for me as a person that was, you know, the consumer, took a minute for me to digest that, you know, like, oh wow, okay, let me rethink this because I can't go to my stylist with just a bunch of pictures of blonde-haired, you know, haircuts and expect that to look normal.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I think for me as like, especially as a woman of color, it took me a minute to be like, oh wow, it feels like a limitation almost.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like it felt like I was hitting a wall, but really it's more, I mean, now that I think about it, you know, years later, it's more like, no, it was just me trying to discover what is best for my hair type.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things that I can do with it and what works for me?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a lot there that can be kind of unpackaged, kind of the layers need to be sorted through, you know, whether you're a salon expert or you're a personal, just a consumer, you know, think about that a little bit.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very interesting.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear about your collaboration though with Maui Moisture.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a huge fan of the brand and you know, I really love their products.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: So could you tell us a little bit about your work with them?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my relationship with Maui Moisture was a complete dream come true.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So they reached out to me.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've never pitched anything, but they reached out to me and recognized the work that I was doing with hair care professionals and said they wanted to support my effort to train more hair care professionals in mental health first aid.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was extremely surprised because I'm a psychologist and usually we're not front and center in any public movements or things like that.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was surprised that I could be found.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I was having a conversation and they disclosed that they would be donating six figures to psychotherapy, I cried.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Just the idea of having this, the funding to be able to reach a broader audience or having the opportunities to speak on podcasts or be interviewed for articles where I didn't have that reach by any means.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so for this company to recognize me and my work and to support it, it has been so beautiful.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm so grateful for the opportunity to collaborate this year.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I love that they are working with you because this is the kind of collaboration that I wish we would see a little bit more of in the beauty industry.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I won't lie.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Between just science and beauty, you know, merging the two.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I remember like, you know, when I was starting off and interviewing a lot of skincare brands, I used to always think like we need to start more funds.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what I mean?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like these kind of places where we can really merge science and different disciplines of science with beauty because the amount of knowledge that needs to come into play just for general consumers to understand, for us as professionals to understand, it's a lot of stuff to really get through.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you guys are doing this.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's absolutely phenomenal.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a fan, so that's very cool.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I want to know though, I you know, I some advice really uh for all the listeners out there that might have a lot of things that they're dealing with when it comes to their hair.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know hair is really challenging.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, some of us go through ups and downs a lot.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like my relationship with my hair is just standard all year round.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't really have many feelings towards it, I won't lie, but I know it can be quite a struggle for a lot of people, especially as we get older and with menopause symptoms.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, some advice would be great from you in terms of how we should approach our own hair health and just our image, like just, you know, when we look at ourselves, what we should be thinking about, some healthy habits, I guess you could say.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great question.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say a few different things.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: One, I definitely think that a big part of your hair care process and routine should include self-care, that this is an opportunity to love on yourself and indulge and really care for yourself in a deep way.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the ways that we can do this is through staying hydrated, right?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Actually having enough water every day, eating enough fruits and vegetables, getting enough rest, exercising, managing your stress, all of those impact our hair health.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And also to do some self-study.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know you were talking earlier about the importance of really understanding what your hair does and who your hair is, to be able to have the opportunity to understand your hair porosity.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: How does your hair interact with water?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that change depending on what you've been doing in your life or how you've been styling your hair, right?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of even thinking about how porosity possibly could change depending on certain behaviors, or to understand your hair type, to understand the curl pattern or the waves, understanding how your hair interacts with foams, with gels, with oils, with leave-in conditioners, and to experiment, use your hair as an opportunity to experiment with creativity, try new things, and expect your hair to change, right?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Our hair doesn't stay exactly the same throughout our lives, whether it's graying, which is something I'm navigating now that I've hit the 40s club.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why do my gray hairs curl in a different way?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And or is it too soon to dye it?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or am I gonna dye it?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or should I use henna?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of really even exploring, doing research, going on YouTube or Instagram and looking for people who have similar hair to you and see see how they care for it or the styles that they create, so that that it's such an opportunity to spend time with yourself.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Our hair is the most easily manipulated part of our bodies, right?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: We can't change our weight day to day, we can't change our facial features day to day, but it is actually possible to change your hairstyle and how much it actually changes the way that you look, the shape of your face, or things like that.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so it can grow back even if you cut it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so to think about ways that you can express yourself and enjoy your hair care process.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: That is so I agree, and I think that's amazing, and those are truly fundamentals because I don't think, yeah, you're right.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: We don't really think about that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: That yeah, you made a great point about, you know, you can change your hair every day, and it really does change your whole look, how you perceive yourself.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's very, very true.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that really actually makes me think about kids a lot when I think of hair, because I feel like when children are growing up, like they go through a process, right, of like understanding.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know you must know this much more than me, but when you're discovering, like, do I have curly hair, straight hair?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: What is my hair type?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would just love to get some advice from you for parents out there, just in terms of like how to talk to your kids a little bit about this journey of like discovering your hair, understanding your hair, maybe some tips on like what they could do to make sure that you know children are developing a really, you know, healthy relationship with their hair rather than the other way around.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have a research mentor named Dr.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Marva Lewis.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: She's a professor at Tulane University in New Orleans, and she has a whole research lab dedicated to the concept of talk, touch, and listen.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: It is a hair combing intervention between parents and children to build emotional bonds and attachment.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so she studied thousands of parent-child interactions during the hair combing process and recognized that there is a certain way to have conversations, even if it is a toddler or a certain way to touch the child's head so it's not too much pulling or tension, or to be mindful if a child is tenderheaded, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: But even to think about the words that can be said during the hair care process and again how how they they're comforted if there's any pain or anything like that during the process, but how to really listen to your child's needs.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so she says it's just such a beautiful opportunity on a daily basis for parents to understand and honor their children and include them in the process.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So something as simple as what my mom used to do with me when I was six years old.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can remember starting this process.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: She would ask how many braids I wanted in my hair.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: So she included me in the decision-making process.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm the youngest of four children.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so this was a special one-on-one time where my mom paid exclusive attention to me in the way that I got to make a choice.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I say three braids, sometimes I say seven or eight.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she would have to create these patterns of braids on my head that I would look forward to each time she would style my hair.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just even that investment of time during the hair care process, not to rush it, but to have conversations and tell the children they're beautiful or their hair is so healthy or they're really thoughtful and you're proud of them.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Using time to have these conversations one-on-one with kids can have a huge impact then on how they feel about their hair.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's so that's so cool.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree with you.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's and also it gives you time to spend some more time with your kids in a meaningful way.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and I think that's for me, when I look at kids, like I always see, you know, it is a thing that they're they're going through.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, I guess, for parents to be involved every step of the way, like that, that's a really cool way to be involved.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, yes, you know, we We're constantly talking about it.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: You're learning their preferences, their desires.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's pretty neat.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, you know, great tips for some parents out there that are listening in.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to actually ask you a little bit more on a more serious note, because I know a lot of women, especially right now, you know, menopause is kind of coming up a lot, you know, in the beauty industry overall.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the topics that comes up is obviously hair loss, you know, with menopause.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real issue for a lot of people.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And when I think about that, right, and I think about the the feeling one must have when you're losing hair.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I went through this myself.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't hit that age range for menopause yet, but I suffered with hypothyroidism for a long time.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember losing like chunks of my hair, you know, and it was like scary, very scary, you know.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when you go through that, it's a very interesting feeling and in the sense of like it's grief, but it's also like, how do I fix this?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so like I would love for you to tell us a little bit about that.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you've ever worked with maybe clients before or patients before that are going through something like that and maybe some like coping strategies or any advice you might have for someone that is experiencing hair loss.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've had the opportunity to facilitate a few hair loss support groups.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I recognize that the hair loss process oftentimes reflects that same grief process that people go through as if someone died, right?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the Kubler Ross's model um has some relevance in terms of that initial shock or denial.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: There could be uh anger, there can be bargaining, there could be sadness and depression, even some guilt, but also it ultimately can arrive to that acceptance piece and how going through the emotional experience is important for your mind to heal itself.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, if we don't feel all the feelings that we're sort of repressing or not fully giving this loss enough attention to make sense of it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: A big thing that I think too is that how do we make meaning of the loss?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do we see it just as, you know, exclusively health or is it something with our identity?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Also to be able to prepare for the differences.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: A big thing that happens with hair loss is that people tend to socially isolate, that they feel even paranoid or have some social anxiety because of the hair loss.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Will people notice?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting because one of the best ways to deal with that anxiety or shame that people might initially experience with the hair loss is to talk about it, which is the irony.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know if people follow Brene Brown, who's a shame researcher.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: She actually said that that by having more conversations, leaning into it, joining groups, that that's the usually leads to the best outcome and addressing sort of those self-conscious emotions.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, it it is similar to grief than losing hair, like the whole journey of it.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that yeah, it's it's just a very drastic thing, right?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: That happens.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I know like alopecia and just all of these extreme levels of hair loss.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a whole different, I think, realm.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I think a lot of us, because those topics have come up so much in media, I think every time you're losing a little bit of hair, like your mind always goes there, right?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this the trigger almost that makes you think the worst.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I always wonder, you know, like how do you how do people really cope with that?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I know a lot of times, you know, I've like in my own practice, I've dealt with a lot, for example, cancer patients that are going through it.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I try to always imagine, you know, a little bit of that feeling of just general consumers, you know, as you're going through these changes and your body's going through these changes.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what are your thoughts on just body positivity portion of all of this?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where does that fit into the puzzle when it comes to just understanding what you think about yourself, what about your hair and and how your hair plays into body positivity?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I am thinking about some affirmation cards that I was gifted a few weeks ago.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: For example, from uh actually a Canadian woman who developed something called Messages from Nano that's hair affirmations, where each day you can cite certain things to yourself that that sort of counteract the master narrative that we're told about not liking our bodies or not liking our hair.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's interesting.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I read an article by a researcher at Columbia University that even puts things into a bit of a cultural lens.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: She says that weight is to white women as hair is to black women, in terms of this hyper-regulation of it to fit within these beauty norms, in terms of, you know, in terms of European Americans having a certain like BMI or weight that they feel like they have to fit within, just like for black women to have a certain hair texture and spend so much time and money controlling and regulating.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so to really demystify that these are just methodologies of controlling people, controlling how the how they spend money, right?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Capitalism, uh, there's a whole bunch of money and people not liking their hair or their skin or their bodies, and to recognize it sometimes that we need to challenge these thoughts or false norms about what health is.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just makes me think about affirmation.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So literally, there are people coming out with how to talk to your hair, how to talk to your body as as this self-love journey continues.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that though.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we need a ton of ton more cards of that.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like they should be everywhere.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like every salon needs to carry this, or you know, because honestly, it's it is though, it's a huge journey.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think especially, you know, I grew up having a lot of African-American friends, especially when I first came to this country.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they my friends at that time, they taught me a lot about my own hair, you know, even though my hair was a little bit different than theirs, we had we went on this journey together as kids.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember it being this like, you know, it is.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you come to this realization of like, well, how do I see myself?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and how do I see my hair?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and what does this mean to me overall in terms of my body positivity?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I know a lot of us can relate to that, where it's like, you know, if you're having a bad hair day, nothing looks right, you know, even the way you're looking at your makeup or the way you're looking at your skin, like all of that is impacted.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it does.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, hair is such an integral part of our overall view of ourselves, you know, and it's kind of crazy that we don't sit down and really talk about it more, you know, from the psychology perspective.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's it is just so much more than we realize.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I need some of those affirmation cards.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's on its own right.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, uh also like I would love to um learn a little bit more about just in terms of like studies that have been done or any um knowledge you have around the African-American uh community and and the way that hair is perceived, you know, because like I uh don't understand as much sometimes.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of my friends who they're very selective with their hair products, you know what I mean, or like what they're doing or the way they style it.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it can be harder to understand if you're not like if you don't have the same hair type as somebody.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I would love for you to shed some light there for us to understand, like, you know, what is that relationship from what you've noticed, or maybe something that has been cited in the studies.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, well, the the psychology of black hair in particular is a growing literature field.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: I do identify as one of the pioneers of it in terms of I did I started a psychoherapy research lab in 2014.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just about to turn 10 years old.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so a big part of our data collection not only was through social media because that's where a lot of the conversations were happening, not necessarily in a research lab, but through posts and comments on blogs and influencers' pages, but also in the hair salons and barbershops.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I had the opportunity to get approval from a university to be able to go into what Washington, D.C.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: metropolitan area hair salons and barbershops that catered to black clientele.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so my research students that were all psychology majors uh went and collected survey data while people were getting their hair done.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so this particular study was called the hair health and heritage study.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the hair health and heritage study.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so the survey questions included information about their hair care practices, but also their health care practices and mental health care practices, as well as understanding their racial and cultural identity.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've published at this point maybe about 20 papers from that data.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so there's such a range of things.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: One thing, for example, I remember uh an article that we published in the Journal of Exercise and Nutrition.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that there would be some sort of relationship between healthy hair care practices and eating healthy and exercising.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that those would go together in terms of if people want to use really, you know, plant-based products or, you know, not put chemicals in their hair that, okay, that means they'll be healthy eaters and exercise a lot.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Nope.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what the data said at all.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying that more so it said that their someone's weight had more of an influence on, you know, or relationship with their eating and exercise, not their hair.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So things like that actually surprised me.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm finding studies of a lot about parent-child interactions of how parents really set the tone, or parents were the ones who chose to put chemicals in the hair, and usually people didn't have a choice and they just perpetuated what their parents did, or even a lot of stories about relationships.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: For example, I have a journal article published called Strands of Intimacy that talks about that black women in particular, and I think probably it could be generalized to other groups, for example, tend to cut or dye their hair when they have a breakup or a divorce.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like just things like that pulling this data out.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there's such a range of topics because I would let students sort of pick a topic they were interested in, and then we go through the data to find answers to it.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool, and that's so neat that it's emerging as like an actual field, you know, on itself.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: It should be, it should have been a long time ago.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really cool to hear that because it's it's a very complicated journey.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just being, you know, outside looking in, I know it's it's a very complicated relationship.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, whenever I any of my friends that, you know, have their own journeys, I'm always just sitting there listening, like, yes, tell me more, you know, because I learned so much from them because they've had this, you know, relationship with their hair and they've gone through all of these different things that I've never been through with my hair.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting, definitely an interesting field.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I want to actually ask you, you know, in terms of just uh expanding awareness, right, for for just the general population out there when it comes to psychotherapy and anything that's related to just that, you know, psychological connection we have with our hair, what are just some just words of wisdom, any advice you can give us that things that we can practice every day or whatever you might think is important for us to understand as consumers that you could share?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I would like to shine a light on hair rituals.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: A ritual is how you prepare your mind, body, and spirit to receive something.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm mindful that we have routines, but even incorporating rituals, how do we initiate and even close out this process?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to study, for example, a lot of traditional African hair rituals from naming ceremonies at birth to adolescent rites of passage to marriages, even death rituals that all are inclusive of hair.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like to direct us towards even understanding history and culture as we develop really self-affirming hair rituals too.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And even how that looks in the salon space versus at home, but actually coming up with a particular order that feels good to you, that this is an opportunity for you to again love on yourself.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And whether it's you, you know, have certain essential oils and a diffuser, or whether it's you listen to certain music that makes you feel really great, or just even mirror work, um, to think about what how how you talk to yourself or say affirmations again um during that process, but really coming up with rituals again, whether a professional or a client or customer that makes you feel like you're receiving something.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love that it's uh really about self-care, then having that self-care ritual.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that it really ties into like I think what we always kind of come back to here at Skincare Anarchy is how important that self-care space is, you know, and just how much of an impact it really makes.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you shared that.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm really, really grateful to you, Dr.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're and also Maui Moisture for bringing this to light.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a topic that I want I would love to see more of, you know, just coming up in our beauty industry and also the scientific community because we just don't hear about it enough.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, really truly hats off to you and for your work and all of the amazing pioneering that you're doing here in this field that's really needed and it's wonderful.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for sharing all your insights.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for these words of affirmation.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate that.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and for everyone listening, I hope you guys loved this episode.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any questions around this, I know it's a very interesting topic.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Please let us know.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Chime in, send us an email, um, leave some comments.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I will be putting some more information together and maybe we can send out a newsletter about this.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a really great topic, and I would love to see what you guys have to say as our listenership community.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any questions for Dr.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Fia, maybe we can pass them along to her team.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely chime in and let us know.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: But for now, I will be back next time.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 36:27
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• 37:32
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