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How to Actually Win at Work (Without Playing Yourself) With Ginny Clarke · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. I don't know
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: about you, but my algorithm is hitting me with so
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: much career advice lately. Like every scroll, I see a
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: new how to win at work post, and I've started
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: to notice something. A lot of it sounds right in theory,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: but a lot of it doesn't actually work once you're
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: in the room. Have you thought that too? I think
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: the rules of work are changing, and pretty fast. The
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: pandemic reset absolutely everything, and the return to office has
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: left a lot of people unsure how to navigate. Add
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: in an unstable economy, the rise of AI, and a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: job market that seems to raise more questions than it answers,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: and it's no wonder a lot of people feel really stuck.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Today's guest Jenny Clark has a really refreshing take on
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: all of this. Ginny spent more than thirty five years
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: in executive recruiting and talent leadership, including as a partner
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: at Spencer Stewart and Director of executive Recruiting at Google.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: She specializes in working with leaders high performers, and her take,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: work is just a game and a win. You're going
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: to have to learn how to play.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: It's a game, and once you understand that, you won't
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: fight against it all the time. You've got broken people,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: brilliant people, happy people, angry people, disturbed people, all here
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: thrown together to do something. And it's a game and
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: it's not always well played, so learn to play it.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: In this conversation, we get into what recruiters actually care about,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the mistakes that quietly kill your chances, and the truth
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: about work that people avoid, like why your title might
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: be limiting you and why success doesn't always go to
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the most qualified person. So here's the question that I
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: can't shake. If work is a game, why does it
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: feel like no one ever taught us how to play?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Or worse, are we playing by rules that don't even
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: work anymore? It's time to question everything with Jenny Clark. So, Genny,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: we say unfinished business, funny business, mind your business, back
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: to business, and lately standing on business.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I love that all of them.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: When it comes to work, do most of us not
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: even know what our business is?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that's probably true in what ways. I
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: think we can be sort of myopic. We have a job,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: we show up, and we do what's expected of us
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: or what someone tells us in the moment to do.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure we ask enough questions, even small questions
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: like am I kind of doing this right? If someone's
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: still learning philosophical questions? Do I even care about this work?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: You know? Should I be here? I go sort of
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: micro to meta, you know, sort of out there. So yeah,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I think we can do better about understanding the business
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: that we're in and why.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I love that you talk about the why, because your
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: work actually really centers around story, Like you feel, each
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: of us should have our personal story down in a
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: way that we can communicate to our employers, to our peers.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever thought about that. I
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: think about it in terms of communicating to my audience, right,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: but I've never thought about it in the corporate world.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: How did you come up with that?
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I became an executive recruiter. That was sort of the
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: midpoint of my career roughly, so I interviewed literally thousands
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: of people, and I would ask I always started the
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: interview with tell me about yourself, and people would say, well,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: you know, it's my resume. I'm like, no, I read it.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: It's the dreaded question, though, Jenny. I get when someone says,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: tell me about yourself, I'm like, oh, where do I start.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Well, you can textualize it in the context of sitting
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: across from an executive recruiter, then yes, I want you
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: to tell me the stuff that's relevant to this job,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: but that's not on your resume.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: So don't say, well, I was born in Chicago.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: It all depends on who you're talking to. I mean,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: if we're sitting here just getting to know each other,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: that's a connection point. That's actually part of what you're
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: trying to do is connect Now, it might not always work,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: but you're offering something about yourself that hopefully is relevant
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: to why you're sitting across from each other.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: I've never like really worked in the corporate world. I've
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: worked in newsrooms, so you might have to speak to
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: me in this interview like I'm a baby not to worry.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: What is relevant information to a recruiter?
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Well, your journey and why? And maybe I'm especially sensitive
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: because someone called my path meandering someone I was interviewing with,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: and I said, I don't see it that way at all.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I made very de liberate decisions. It wasn't linear, but
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I decided what I wanted to do. Well.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: I learned from you people make five to seven career
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: transitions in your.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Lifetimeutely, of course, and that's fine, and the number is
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: going to go up.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: So if I'm thinking, if I'm trying to be strategic
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: and give you relevant information. You were a recruiter for Google, right,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: and it's obviously a tech company, but.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: First at a global search firm, So yes, Google was different,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: very different.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: I only bring up Google because I think that in
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: the zeitgeist, it's become known for its recruiting. The company
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: wants the best talent and oftentimes gets it. So I
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: think just having that as your background is such a
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: feather in your cap. But in terms of what's relevant,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: did you ever interview somebody and thought, Wow, they nailed it?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: And why?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Here's part of what I'm getting at as I sit
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: here and think about it, listening to you playing it back.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I'm looking for and this is me because every recruiter
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: is different. Some recruiters are looking for have you done
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: it before? Have you done it before? Have you done
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: it before? Check? Check, check, you're qualified. Go. I've learned
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: that that doesn't necessarily correlate to one's level of competence
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: in a role.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: The best person I've ever hired for social media had
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: no social media experience, And.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: How do you know that they should be good? You're
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: taking a bit of a bet.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: But you know what, it didn't even feel like a
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: bet because I looked at her and I thought, you
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: are a proactive person. You are a figure it out,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: can do person, and you'll figure out anything. And she
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: was better than all the other people I hired that
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: had social media experience. I believe it is that what
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: you're looking for.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm looking for a level of self awareness such
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: that you can reflect on your own career and extract
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: from me what's the most relevant to why we're sitting
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: here today. Okay, in general, when I was recruiting, that
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: was it. It was how are you responding to me.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I think I'm very conversational in my interviewing style, and
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: so I wondered the extent to which they were actually
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: listening to me and interacting with me, versus taking very
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: calculated pauses to consider what they think might be the
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: perfect response. That's not flow, that's not being in the moment,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: that's having been rehearsed.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I don't know that I would have
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: considered that. Like, I go into an interview and I
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: want to be so prepared that sometimes, like you might
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: answer a question with a prepared SoundBite versus being in
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: the moment, and you're saying that wins over the preparation
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: for you.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: For me, Yeah, every recruiter is completely different. I'll tell
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: you if I can. When I was at Google, I
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: took on an additional role than what I was hired
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: for to create an internal mobility program. So I wanted
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: to hire people from within Google. So I put it
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: out there and started interviewing just a handful of folks,
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: and one of the women did something I will never
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: forget that was so impressive to me. I asked a question.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: These were all qualitative questions, no calculation required, and I
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: asked it and she said, give me a minute. And
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: she put her head down, and she had brought a
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: pen and pad, and she wrote out her thought. For
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, I thought it was somewhat courageous to have
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: the presence of mind to say I need a minute.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: It said so much. I'd never seen anybody do it
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: before or since.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: It signals confidence.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. So she ended up working for me, okay,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: and then she now works for me again. I've been
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: gone for five years and she moved to Connecticut, but
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: she's working with me part time. And I mentioned it
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: to her and she said, Ginny, that was because I'm
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: actually very introverted, which I actually didn't know about her,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: and introverted is different from shi, right, But she said,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: I just needed to get my head clear because I
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: had stood on an elevator with you. You didn't know
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: who I was, and I was so completely intimidated by you.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Sitting across from you. I was getting flustered, and I
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: knew I wanted to respond succinctly, so I wrote it down.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: That is so impressive, and to have the presence of
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: mind to do that, that's right. My dad always said
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: to me that if you feel like people are going
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: on and on in phone calls that you should actually
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: always say, can you just email me? And it's not
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: to be rude or push them off. It's because when
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: people are writing, they have to be succinct. They're thinking
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: about being succinct.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, otherwise people will just drone on and on yeah.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: So doing that in an interview is amazing.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I thought it was impressive.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: So to go back kind of to our first question,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: if we take away the titles and the LinkedIn profiles
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: and all of our email signatures, what would we really
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: know about our business? What our business is.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: In general, Like we as a populist or an individual.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Individual, I think we hang our hat on these titles,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: and it's hard to communicate what we really do. Like
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: I can tell you I'm in the business of interviewing,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: but that's not really what I do. I really am
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: a storyteller. I am a connector.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: I could give you four things of what I actually do,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: but I think that's hard to deduce, especially like if
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: you're in mortgages.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Well, but you tell a story about maybe starting with
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: how you came here, and again the most relevant parts
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: to the other person listening to you. It was so
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: funny when I'd asked that question every single one of
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: my interviewees, tell me about yourself, and some people would
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: just choke like, well, I you know, I don't know
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: what to say. It's just you know, it's right there
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: on the resume. Other people would just kind of say
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: something summary of the resume and stop after three minutes,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: and then I'd have to start probing. And I'm not
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: judging people harshly necessarily, but it was more the answers
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: than the process. Then I had people who would go
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: on and on and tell me, well, in first grade,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: you know I did this, and then I'm like, okay, no,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: let me give you a quick outline. Here's what I'm
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: looking for. I'm looking for connection points of how do
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: you think That's part of what I'm looking for, not
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: just what you've done. Why did you make these moves?
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: What precipitated some of these moves? You can tell me
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: part of your personal story. You had to care for
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: a sick parent, or you had to take time off to,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: you know, deal with the child with special needs. Tell
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: me those things that to me is interesting, is a
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: directly relevant to the job, Not necessarily, but it gives
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: me some insight into some of the things that you've
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: been through that might help shape how you think. And
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: that's what I'm really looking for.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: So the personal is professional in your mind.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'd learned that probably the most when I got
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: to Spencer Stewart, because I've just gone through some of
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: the hardest times in my life, and so I needed
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: to integrate what was going on, just having lost my mother,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: my son being one year old, asking my husband for divorce,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: I say that kindly telling him and then showing up
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: at this global search firm. That was my first month
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: in all that had happened.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: And you were the only person of color there. Yes,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: So you were navigating that too, Yes.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: And I had been working with a healer. He's so
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: much more than a healer. He's a shaman, a guru,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: close personal friend, really gifted. He's a therapist, he's a theologian.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: And so I had been on my spiritual journey for
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: a number of years, and I just knew I needed
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: to integrate these things. It's not like I can meditate
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: in the morning and and be fine and sort of peaceful,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: or at least seeking having that place as my place
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: of respite and meditation and reflection and then come to
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: work and just be like going hard. I needed to
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: be the same person at my core, never trying to
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: impose my beliefs on anyone in the workplace, but just
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: showing up as who I am. There's one of me,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: and yeah we code switch, but at my core, what
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I believe in, what I believe about myself, that needs
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: to show up every day, and I'm not going to
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: suppress that because that weakens me.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: That's interesting because I guess in my profession as a broadcaster,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: I've often thought, is it chicken or the egg? Like
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: I used to do morning TV, and I could be
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: going through something so terrible in my personal life, but
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: you have to show up and be really sunny on
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: TV like you do. Have to kind of compartmentalize. And
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I always think, are people who are good at that
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: drawn to that profession or do you learn it in
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: the profession. I'm not sure, but I really like the
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: idea of finding a way to integrate.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: And it can be quiet, it can be internal, not
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: necessarily perceptible to others. Although people kind of saw me
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: as the spiritual one, I had this aura about me.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was told I think people were drawn to
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: you and that's why they're drawn to you on social
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: media today.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Well, that'd be nice. I appreciate that.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: It's true. I feel like, at least on my algorithm,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I'm swimming in career content. Do you think that any
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: of it is valuable?
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, depending on where you are in your career,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: what it is that you're looking to get out of it,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: and then I think a lot of it is noise.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I agree, But I've actually learned a lot from
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: online career coaches or little resume tips. I had no idea,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about AI later, but I
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: learned the other day on TikTok some woman was saying,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: on your resume, you should put a bunch of keywords
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: in white ink so that they get past the computer
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: system that's looking for certain keywords, so you can get
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to the next level, to get to a human I
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: was like, I would have never known that.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that because I never worked with algorithms.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a whole different thing.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Do you think that professionalism is important nowadays or does
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: it feel manufactured?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it is anymore, you know, I mean,
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: I go back to I came out of graduate school
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: in the eighties. All right, I'm seriously dating myself. So
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: it was skirts and pantyhose and all of that. So
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: it was very different, but I kind of yearned for
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: a little bit more formality. I mean, going to Silicon Valley, it's,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: you know, the epitome of casual. I just did a
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: video talking about what we wear and how there's an
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: element of I'm not remembering the word that they use,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: but there's a psychological term that says that when you
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: like the way you dress, when you feel good about
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: yourself in the way that you're dressed, you think more clearly.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: You show up differently.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Also, people take you more seriously whether you want to
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: do better or no.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely they do, and understanding who it is your
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: across from. I was in professional services. We served clients.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: You had to show up, You had to present yourself
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: well to your clients, and some of that is the
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: way that you look.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Early in my career, I was financially struggling a lot,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: and I always made sure that part of my small
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: budget went to hair and makeup and clothing. And a
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: lot of people would have said that's a waste and
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: that's crazy. But I really felt like no one was
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: going to hire me unless I looked the part.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I believe.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Did you always do that? Did you dress for the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: job you wanted? Yeah?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: And I just have my own personal style and standards
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: of dressing. You know, my mother was one of those
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: women who you don't go to the grocery store without
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: putting lipstick on it. Literally, she would say that. So
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I grew up. It wasn't bussy, it wasn't showy, but
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: she taught me how to dress for my body. I'm
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: six feet tall and super long legs, and so I
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: couldn't wear with all the three girls we're wearing.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: So you look like this going to get coffee in
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: the morning.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Pretty much.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: I aspire to that level of professionalism. I am homeless
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: or Hollywood. There is no in between. It's truly amazing.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: You know. I'm not obsessive. And again, it's not for
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: your show.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: It's just it's who you are.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: This is how I show up.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I think we live in this era of main character energy.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Do you think that kind of energy helps or hurts
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: at work?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Some of that is going to fly in the face
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: of collaboration, which is for most people, even if you're
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: an individual contributor at work, you need to be able
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: to get along with others, plain nice with others as
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: they say. So. Yes, I think it can fly in
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: the face of this showing up and being the main character.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: It's not always about you, I know.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: I think about like how you can show up and
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: be the main character without pissing people off. And it's like,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: be extra competent.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Be competent, be perceptive, watch signals. What is your goal
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: in being there? Because depending on what the gathering is
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: about your participant. Now, if you're the one sucking the
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: air out of the room, always wanted to raise your
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: hand and say the most important thing that gets tiresome,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: you're going to turn people off.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Do you know Bozoma Saint John. That is somebody who
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I look at her and I'm like, you brought main
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: character energy to your jobs and people loved you for it.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: She must be really perceptive because she knew like when
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: to bring it and when to listen. And if you
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: bring that kind of energy, you have to be really perceptive.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: It seems you absolutely do. And I think what's really
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: dare I say in Vogue now is the authenticity. Are
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: you putting on a show, are you doing something actually
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: just for someone else to observe, or are we seeing
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: the real you?
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Because I think some people wear masks at work.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: You've talked about something called role prison. Can you explain
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: what that is?
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Well, people get into a role and they think that's
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: all they can never do. Is that what you're referring to.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like people start behaving according to what they think
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: their title requires, yeah, rather than what the work needs.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: That's dangerous because part of it tells me that on
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: just a personal level, you're caught up in a title.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: That's your first mistake. Because these titles anywhere pick a place,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: they tend to be ridiculous, right, I mean we've seen
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: some that are just really crazy.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Do titles matter anymore?
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: We're still in a hierarchical environment, and so to the
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: extent that it shows rank or level, people in those
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: roles want that. They want others below them subordinates to
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: respect their title and hopefully there's a commensurate amount of
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: competence that goes with the title. That's a big if,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: because I've worked for people who had big titles who
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: weren't always as competent as I would have expected.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: How do you navigate that situation when you feel like
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: you know more than your boss?
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Do your best to build them up. That's what I
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: would say. It's not going to serve you well to babmoutholm.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Other people are probably aware of it, and so to
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: the extent that you can fill the gap, do that.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about competence a lot. Yeah, and
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: you've said that it's the real currency in the room.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: What do you mean by that.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Well, let me describe what the term and I talk
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: about competencies. I was trained to do competency based assessment
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: as a recruiter. The way I describe competencies as the
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: deconstructed elements of how you do something. It's not just
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: that you've done it. That doesn't tell me that you're competent.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: I know lots of people have done stuff and they're not.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: You know, you're savage in the best way.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I'm oh, you have no idea. You know my nickname
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Maybe you don't. It's GMFC G C Oh my god.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I was given it Jenny MF Clark for anybody listening,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: got it.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: I'm kind, I'm loving, but I just see things very clearly,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: and they're not absolute. This is all through my lens, right,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: But you were competent, competency thinking, deconstructed elements of how
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you do something.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: How do you communicate that to somebody?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Though?
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Like if I'm in an interview, how can I describe
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: my how storytelling?
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: We're back to that, okay, And the way I seemed
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: to fall into this before I became an executive recruiter.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I recruited for two years after I graduated from undergrad
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: University California at Davis, and then I went to business school.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Then I went into banking, commercial real estate executive recruiting.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: In the interviews, the more time and the more varied experiences,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I had to create the through line for the person
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: I was speaking to so that they understood what was
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: it that I had learned and what skills had I
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: developed that made sense to what it is that they do? Now?
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: What did you say?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: When I was going into Spencer Stewart, I was able
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: to talk about how I developed business when I was
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: in the commercial real estate investment management business because I
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: had clients and I had to go out and find them.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I talked about how I thought, how I processed and
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: worked on different challenges in that space, How I innovated,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: how I developed things, how much I recruited, I did recruiting.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I wasn't a recruiter in these other companies, but they
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: would send me on campus on behalf of the company
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to recruit for them because I was a line person
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: who could interview. So I just dropped these little nuggets
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: of things that I had done that were relevant and
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: it made sense.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I'm like deducing here. Would you say that you could
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: look at a company's objectives if it is to grow
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: their business, whatever those are, if you could name three
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: of them and then try and fit in how your
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: personal story give them the how for a few of those,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: and that would be a good interview.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Well, and it's not just the company. Yes, that's the container,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: but it's the role. To talk about the role, because
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: so many people, as I was saying, they assume if
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: you've done it, if you have a similar title, ooh,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: that makes it really easy. They've done this before. You're
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: not asking nearly enough questions.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: There are three really good questions to ask somebody when
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: you are being interviewed.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Give me an example. That's one. So give me an
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: example of when you had to deal with someone who
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: was difficult, you had a difficult client, to offer them
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: a hypothetical situation and say how would you handle this?
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: That's quite telling, So it's not just the what, it's
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the how back to that?
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: And then how about the reverse side. If you are
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: being interviewed, what are a few questions that are really
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: thoughtful and great to ask?
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: The basic ones of tell me something about your organization
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: that you don't like, or there's some simple ones that
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: really aren't that thoughtful, So do your homework. And I
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: would advise people to get as granular as possible so
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: you can know something about damn near anybody that you're
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: talking to. So do your homework on the interviewer, and
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I would ask a question that's more specific to them
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and maybe the role that they're in, how they think
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: about the work that the company is doing, or the
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: role that this individual plays in the organization from their perspective,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: so that you're actually learning something so the question doesn't
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: become just a platitude.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: What do you think? And be honest, what do you
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: think of the question like what is your biggest pain
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: point day to day? And what would somebody in this
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: role do to make your life a lot easier.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: It's not a bad question.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Don't seem excited by it. It's not a great question.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: To the extent that it might have already been answered.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: When people hold on to they have this sort of
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: list and they have these questions, and it's like, well,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I actually already talked about a lot of that. It
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel probing, it feels rehearsed.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Well, what I'm hearing you say, though, is that a
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: lot of this is practice. Because I think about myself
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: at twenty two, There's no way I'm going to be
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: present in an interview. I'm so nervous. I'm not practiced.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Like I could go in now at thirty five and
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: be present. I don't even know if I could have
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: done that three years ago.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: I get that, and keep in mind I was interviewing
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: as a recruiter. These were very senior people. When I
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: was a college recruiter was more Those were very different
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: kinds of conversations. Okay, so thank you for like kind
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: of making that distinction. But I still think back to
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: your original question around what I call the narrative. Everybody
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: needs one be able to tell your story, even if
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: no one's giving you any real guidelines. Have something in
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: your head about why you're sitting here?
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Are there certain beats in the story to hit, Like
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: if you could break down what are the beats you
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: want to hit?
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Why you're here? You're trying to hit why I'm interested,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: because you'd be surprised how many people take interviews and
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: they actually don't know much about the organization, don't really care. Really,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: it's an opportunity, it's an opening, and they're sitting here.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: But it's such a competitive job market nowadays.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but some people are there just because someone said
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: yes to them and they haven't given it a lot
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: of thought, and that's unfortunate.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I'm really surprised to hear that, especially you're having done
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: like senior recruiting. That's shocking.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Or you're supposed to be impressed by them. All right.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Eight, So you've considered yourself a former executive recruiter, conscious
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: leadership expert, executive coach, keynote speaker, and workplace activists. What
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: do you consider your competency.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: My competencies are around how I think. I'm a holistic thinker.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I look at things. I'm able to zoom in and
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: zoom out. I'm highly analytical, qualitatively analytical. I'm a systems thinker,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: and that I think comes from my training in language
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: linguistics in French and loving to read the dictionary. So
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I perceive things in a deeper way than a lot
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: of people who just might give it a cursory observation.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I see everything, watching people, I'm sensing, I'm using all
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: of my senses. I'm highly intuitive, so I see a lot.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: You're hired give a moment, but can I tell you
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: what stood out for me? I was thinking, like, okay,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: I'm sitting across from her. When you said I think
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: more deeply and see what other people miss, I'm like, oh, yeah,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: that's what I'm looking for. Like you hit something there
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: with the way you described it. I just think that's
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: good for people to notice they're thinking about how to
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: describe their own competency.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Absolutely one of the ways I came up with the
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: five dimensions of conscious leadership, and it's not just for
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: people in leadership roles. By the way, know yourself, speak
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: your truth, inspire love, expand consciousness, and activate mastery. I
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: came up with those when I was getting ready to
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: leave Google, and I look back on my entire career
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: to reflect on what did I think make leaders good
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: or great or terrible? And these are the personal characteristics
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: that I think underlie any functional expertise, any leadership expertise.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: These are personal attributes that people need to consider, because
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people don't. They're just like,
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I'm here, I'm good, I've done all these things. Their
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: identity is their resume, which you were alluding to earlier,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: and that's very dangerous. I think we need to step back.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: You're not your job. You need to know who you are,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: what you stand for, what your values are, why you're here.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: It's simple stuff, but I think a lot of us
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: are lost.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I have to tell you. I've had the woman
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: on the podcast named Susie Welch who created something called
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: the Values Bridge, and you take a simple quiz and
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: it tells you what your sixteen values are in order,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: and we conflate values and virtues. So kindness is really
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: important to me, and I thought that was a value,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: that's a virtue. I ask myself questions all the time.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: I ask questions for a living, and I had no
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: idea what my real values are. I think, like you
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: really have to carve out the time, it's very difficult
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: to really know yourself.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: It is especially now, especially with social media.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because you have everybody else's opinions. I have found
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: that in my career, my professional life really only expands
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: as much as my personal development. Have you found that
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: to be true in your life.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because my personal development matters more. I can't be
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: someone totally different when I show up at work from
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: the essence of who I am. Maybe some people can,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: maybe they have to. Yeah, you get all of them,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of all or nothing again, you
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: know what's appropriate. Yeah, But at my core, I'm the
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: same person, and I wish that for everyone because I
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: think trying to be something you're not is exhausting and depleting.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: And if you don't know, then I think you're missing
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: big aspects of yourself that you could be bringing into
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: the workplace, bringing into the rest of your life that
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you haven't. And it's more than just the language. It's
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: the awareness.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: As a recruiter, would you hire somebody that you liked
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: over somebody with high competency?
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: No, in the workplace, I need competence. Do I need
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: to like you? Not necessarily if I find you obnoxious
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: that's a problem if I don't perceive that you're going
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: to work well with others.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: There's sort of a meter.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: There's a meter, but you've probably heard me say I
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: don't need to be liked, so if someone else needs
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: to be liked, there's kind of a hole there, I think.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: And that's cause for concern.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Because so much of your work intertwines the personal and professional,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: and I just want to say that I deeply appreciate that.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: How do you think about personal and professional boundaries? Are
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: there professional boundaries when you're a high achiever, high performer?
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely?
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Really Yeah.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to do anything my superior. I work
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: for myself now, so I am that right. But when
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: I think about the people on my team, I only
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: have two full time people. I'm not going to ask
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: them to do anything I wouldn't do in the context
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: of work, you know what I mean. I'm not going
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: to ask them to work all weekend. If we all
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: agree that we have to get something out, we're on
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: a sprint and we're all going to do it, then
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: that's one thing that's a boundary, and personal boundaries I'm
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: probably even more locked down on those.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I want to sort of dig into this because you
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: talk about how nobody teaches us how to say no.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: You actually talk about it very often on your Instagram.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Why is that important to you?
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Because I see so many people in the workplace, people
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: like coach people I encounter who are people pleasing. They
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: don't know how to say no. They don't think it
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: serves them to say no. And I just think it's
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: really important that you know what your boundaries are and
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: you're able to express them. Because this is maybe my upbringing,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: but you know, I don't owe you anything. If we're
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: in a work environment and I have responsibilities and deliverables,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: of course I'm going to honor those commitments. But you
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: want me to do something else that goes well beyond
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: what's expected maybe of others. No, And part of my
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: barometer is what I ask somebody to do that under
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: the same circumstances.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Do you think that is realistic for a startup because
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: that feels like very true in a corporate environment, But
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: when I think about startup environments, I'm like, I don't
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: know if that's even possible.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: It might not be. I mean, where you're sort of
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: a jack of all trades, master of none, as I say,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: right you need to jump in and that the team
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I have now, frankly, they'll do anything we agree. Can
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: you do this? Yes? I can. No, I'm probably not
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the one to ask, So yeah, I do like having
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: people in a startup. Yeah, but still there might be boundaries.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: You've called interviews theater, so I really want to know
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: who's the worst actor in the room, the candidate or
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: the company.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I would say the company. But a company
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: is nothing more than a bunch of people. And I
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: always say that the culture is determined by the senior
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: most leaders, So I guess it kind of trickles all
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: the way up to leadership.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you about culture. It's something that
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: as a millennial I've heard in the zeitgeist a lot. Yeah,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: and there is company culture. You can feel it that
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: you walk in, But I find it to be very amorphous,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: like very rarely is there a culture or a value
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: system written on the walls. You just kind of walk
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: in and feel it. So when you say it's set
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: by the leaders, do you think it's caught not taught?
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's taught? How does it get set?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Oh? I don't even think it's necessarily intentional in a
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: lot of companies. I mean, they might have their sort
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: of ethos or whatever's on the website or have it
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: written down on a wall, but then when you walk
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: in I refer to it as the soup that you're in.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: You feel it. You just said that you feel it,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: and very often what you feel is not what might
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: be on that wall exactly. The leaders are the ones
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: who set the tone very typically without thinking about it.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: It's what they will and will not tolerate. That to
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: me is one of the big elements of what is
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: going to determine the culture. What are people getting away with,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: what kind of behavior is incentivized? See.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: I think that's so interesting because I think when people
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: talk about culture, they think it's we are kind, we
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: are doers, But it's actually who gets hired and who
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: gets fired Because you watch what behavior gets rewarded and what.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Is punished and how you're treated and by whom.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: It's more simple than I thought.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, people are simple in so many ways.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: So our producer and I loved this video you made
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: about interviews. So you say interviews were invented in nineteen
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: twenty one, How have we been conducting them wrong since then?
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: You need to spill the tea. I didn't realize they
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: were this old.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: And I think the reference was to the fact that
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: this was sort of at the beginning of the industrial age,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: where you know, people open these factories and they had
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: all these people show up, and they needed to figure
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: out a way to discern who's more suitable than the
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: other person. And so the interview and I think it's
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: become something that we do a standard, but I just
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: don't think they're done well. I think most interviewers aren't
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: asking the right questions.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I want a set of questions from you. I know
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: that's so hard to give me when it's just a
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: general conversation, but I would love to see you do
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: a video about that. I'm so curious, like, what are
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: people doing.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Wrong the interviewers.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you from my perspective. Sure, I have
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: just recently started hiring help and a freelance team, and
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: I think I'm a really bad high I'm self aware
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: enough to okay, I'm getting better at it. I do
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: think part of its practice. I didn't know the questions
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: to ask at the beginning. So I did look at
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the resume like you said, and I was like, Okay,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: they've done this before. I learned very quickly that doesn't
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: mean competence. And I don't know the right questions to ask,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: so I don't know I have an expert. Here, can
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: you advise me.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: I'll start with a shortcut, and that is take the
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: job description hopefully you had one, drop it into your
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: favorite AI system. Tell it what your expectations are, tell
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: it what's not on the job description. Describe the circumstances
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: in which this person is going to be operating, and
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: what your expectations actually are. Not the to do, but
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: this is the environment, the culture that we operate in.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: I'm this, I'm a that. Give it a couple paragraphs
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: and then ask it to generate some questions for you.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I mean I was a recruiter long before AI, but
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: I learned myself how to contextualize what it is that
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to hire. For given who was sitting in
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: front of me, it became automatic for me.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Wow, I love that answer. Thank you for that. I
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: think everybody's different. I've boiled down. My most important quality
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: is being proactive. Proactivity. That's what I'm looking for. What
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: one quality were you really.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Looking for for people? On my team or as a
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: recruiter when I.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Was as a recruiter, If you had to give us
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: one quality.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: You know what, it's the self awareness. That's the quality
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: I was always looking for. I didn't always name it
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: as that. I'll never forget. I was sitting across from someone.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: I don't remember now if he became the final candidate,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: but in the end, I really like this guy and
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: he was responding to a question I think, and I
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: looked across. I'm at my big desk and he's sitting
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: over in the chair, and I saw this little ten
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: year old boy when I looked up, and it wasn't
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: that he was childish. I just saw a vulnerability and
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I thought this was a decent, kind person. It wasn't
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: what he said. What he talked about told me that
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: he was competent, But there was something else that I
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: noticed that let me know that he was human and kind,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: and that is something I value.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: If you could interrupt everybody's algorithm for five minutes, what
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: truth about work would you force us all to sit with.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: It's a game, and once you understand that, you won't
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: fight against it all the time. Half the stuff that
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: people think is cast in stone and half the genius
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: that they believe that their boss has. Oh you've got
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: broken people, brilliant people, happy people, angry people, disturbed people,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: all here thrown together to do something. And it's a
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: game and it's not always well played.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: So learn to play it if you could try and
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: in a simple way, boil down who wins and who loses.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I think so many people think that they win
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: when they make a lot of money or they have
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: a big title and they're over lots of people. I
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: just don't believe that's the case. For me, it was
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: how can I impact people. I've been gone from Google
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: five years, but when I still hear from members of
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: my team and I'm employing one now, or they're reaching
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: out just to say hey, they see me on social
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: media and they're celebrating something, my son is in grad
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: school or whatever. It's a personal connection, you know. And
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: I think we don't do that well. It's not valued
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: and people underestimate and you can't fake it. I'm not
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: saying go try to be friends with everybody. I don't
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: have that many friends from work or work colleagues. And
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: we respect each other and like each other, but fewer friends.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: But I think we need to sort of understand what
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: everybody's doing there.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Well, what I think you're talking about, and tell me
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: if I'm assessing it right? Is integrity one of my
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: favorite words?
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Me too, I don't know that enough people actually know
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: what that is, or regrettably that it's modeled by leaders,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: the ones that you would expect to embody that. That's
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: how I grew up. My dad, I told you, was
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: a superintendent of correctional facilities.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: And so much tight shit.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Oh yes he did. I'm his daughter. I look like
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: my mom. My brother looks like my dad, but my
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: brother is my mother's son. I am my dad's daughter
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: very much him. Hence the GMF sy. But yeah, I
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: just think we need to get clear on why we're
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: doing things, how we're doing things. And yes, the integrity
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: piece is integral, but unfortunately integrity isn't often modeled by
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: the senior most people. Yeah, and so that standard isn't
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: set and the culture suffers.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever been able to name that.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you pointing that out, because all the best
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: places I've worked, the leader, the number one in charge,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: has a lot of integrity and they hire people with
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: integrity for the most part.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Well, and the ones who don't have integrity who operate
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: from that place at work. Well, I keep thinking of
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: the coldplay situation, right that CEO with the head of hr.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, tell me what you think about that?
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: How stupid and irresponsible frankly for the two of them
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: to even be there, to get caught in public, in public,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: what were you thinking?
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Because there were other people from the company there too,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: so everyone was just kind of turning a blind eye. Yeah.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: I felt like, what you do on your own time
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: is your business. Yeah, that is your marriage, you decide,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: But to bring it out into public as.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: A wild irresponsible.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: So you agree that they both should have been.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Fired absolutely if I was on the board immediately bad judgment.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Use that kind of judgment in work situations, No, out
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: of here, gotta go. There got to be consequences to
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: bad behavior, which.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Is the culture piece it is. It kind of all
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: fits together.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: That's why I was saying, what gets tolerated is going
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: to determine the culture.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Do you think then it's very important for us to
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: as individuals recognize what our values are, maybe even write
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: a list and only work at companies that align with
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: our values. Is that even possible?
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: That might narrow it down to too few. I just
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: don't think companies are as deliberate and aware, and the
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: leaders I don't think are necessarily holding themselves as accountable
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: as they should to their employees. Very often, I think
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: leaders think in terms of, you know, I'm accountable to
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: my shareholders and to my board. What about to the
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: thousands of employees. You're accountable to them too by showing
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: up with integrity, And I think that's what's missing.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: If you are a person who wants to work on
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: your integrity, what does that look like?
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Need to go somewhere and sit by yourself and look
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: deeply into the mirror.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Because what you're talking about is leadership, and you can
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: be a leader in any role you're in.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I guess I landed on that because I saw
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: how many leaders people in leadership roles. So I use
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: the term judiciously. When you're not leading well, but you're
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: still called a leader. I just was disappointed. I expected more,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: you know, I held my dad out as that sort
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: of standard of someone who knew how to set boundaries
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: but respected people. And that's the difference that I talk about.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: I don't need you to like me. But as my
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: mother used to say, you will respect me. I can't
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: force you to do that. You will respect me if
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: I am truthful, if I'm kind, if I have integrity,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: which means you can trust me. I don't think a
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: lot of leaders can be trusted these days. They don't
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: demonstrate that they are worthy of trust.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: As you're talking, I'm thinking about that. The best leaders
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: I've worked for show up as the same person every day,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: so they're not, you know, full of integrity one day
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: and then maybe in a bad mood the next. There's
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: a consistency piece, like you trust them because they're consistent.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: That's right, and you know we're all human, right, So
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I would let my team know I'm kind of off today.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little wonky and dizzy, so you'll excuse me,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: you know, have some humility.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: I've had friends in other fields who are more in
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: corporate worlds, and they've applied for jobs and they had
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: to take a compatibility test before they even get to
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: round one. And I feel like a lot of those
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: are making people feel like they're fired before they're even hired.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: What do you think about those.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: I've never seen one of those tests. I'm well aware
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: that they're out there. It triggers a little something for
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: me in the sense that it sounds suspiciously like the fit.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Do they fit our culture? What does that even mean?
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: That leaves so much room for what I think often
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: becomes I'll say it, it can be biased.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: That's how I feel.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Can I tell you When I am given any sort
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: of like paperwork and I have to click an identity
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: box a race and ethnicity, a gender, I'm like, there's
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: no good way to answer this, and I don't want
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: to answer right because it feels like I'm damned if
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I do. I'm damned if I don't. What do you
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: think about those?
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was a time when I think some
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: of that information was actually used to calibrate the outreach
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: that an organization might have been getting. I co founded
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: the City Practice at Spencer Stewart, and part of my
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: responsibility Google was developing some of that expertise and capability,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: and so there weren't quotas, but also we wanted to
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: know that we were getting a representative sampling of people
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: who had the qualifications.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Right, you want a pipeline of different types of people.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: That's right, but it can send a very negative signal.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I think nowadays it's so confusing. People don't know
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: if they're going to be discriminated against because of a
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: certain box, or they don't know if it helps them
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: if they check a certain box.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: I guess Netflix is known for having like a lot
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: of different boxes. People a check yeah, and I don't
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: know if it's helpful or hurtful.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: I don't either, I just don't. I think there's this
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: confusion because they might be asking for things they don't
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: communicate why, and then can you even trust them or
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: are you being screened out? Would you say, before you
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: even cross the threshold.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Do you recommend people just put like not applicable.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Or other true? Just be you?
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because you don't want to walk in somewhere where
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: you're not welcome as you here, we have it, you
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: got it ultimately.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, The welcome can mean different things. I've been in
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: situations where I was welcomed by the masses, but then
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: certain people were uncomfortable with my presence. I represented a threat.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Well, what I found so interesting about your story is
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: that you shared that early on in your career at Spencer.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: What is it called Spence Spencer Stewart.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Spencer Stewart that very early on they asked you to
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: start a diversity program. Yeah, and you said no, thank you,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: and they were kind of shocked. Can you explain your
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: thinking behind that?
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Well, it was a couple of things. One, I was
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: going through so much with my young son and my
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: mom passing a month after I started there, So that
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: was one. So knowing my own physical emotional limitations in
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: that moment. But the overarching thing was that I needed
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: to learn the business of executive recres The way they
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: did it what made them one of the top firms
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: in the world. There's a way, and they had very
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: clear standards, talk about professionalism. It was just very clear
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: quality control. This is how we do things. And you
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: know what. That worked for me because now that I
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: know what you expect, I know what I need to
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: learn and how I need to fortify what I came
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: here knowing with spending time with people and just doing
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: some of the work. So it was a great experience.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: It was probably the most formative role of my career
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: because I learned so much.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: I love when you share that story because I think
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: it signals the yes and no that you talk about
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: a lot of people I think would have thought, Wow,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to lead so early on, And that was
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: your self awareness that said I'm actually not ready yet.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the ready wasn't as in knowledge, I could
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: have done it based on what they wanted. I prioritized
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: learning the business because ultimately that's how I was going
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: to be evaluated. And what it was that they were
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: asking me to do was a function of understanding the business,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: and that meant knowing people, knowing behaviors and you know,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: just some of the things that aren't on paper, and
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: building relationships internally.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: So you've worked for two of the top companies in
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: the world in terms of recruiting, interviewed thousands of people,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: hired hundreds of top performers. If you could give me
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: three qualities that top performers have, what would they be.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to self awareness. I think
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: they really do because that self awareness allows them to
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: interact with other people in a way that brings the
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: best out in those people. So it's a derivative of
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: some of the leadership competencies that I was trained to
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: assess for. So that's probably one. It's that how well
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: do you know yourself? And that weeds out I think
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: extreme behavioral maladies and things like you know, narcissism and
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: other things that can be really destructive in an organization.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: So that's one. How many did you want?
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I'd love three if you have them.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: A sense of collaboration because even if you're coming into
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: a leadership role, no one expects you to know everything.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: A good leader knows how to ask questions, how to
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: admit when they don't know something. That's why you have
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: a team. Have them know or go find out. One
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: of the primary competencies is decision making. And again I'm
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: going to fall back on what I mentioned earlier around
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: the fact that so many people now are conflict diverse
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: and people pleasing. They're derivatives of a similar mindset, I
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: dare say. And so if you're a people pleaser or
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: you're conflict averse or both, you're probably not going to
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: make optimal decisions because you're too worried about what everybody
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: else is thinking and you don't want to necessarily say
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: anything because you're avoiding conflict. So that's why personal traits
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: can influence the level of competence in a certain area.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: I love that really struggled with conflict, and I saw
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: a therapist. I'll never forget. I was doing a morning
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: show in Chicago and my boss and I butt heads
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: a lot. I thought he was a person of low
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: integrity and I didn't trust him, and that's one of
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: my favorite traits or values, and so it was tough
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: for me and we would disagree a lot, and I
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: didn't know what information I could share with him. I
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: went to a therapist and I was like, I'm so
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: bad at conflict, and she said, no, you are just
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: not practiced. So we're going to practice conflict. Your boss
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: already doesn't like you, We're going to really practice with him.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Oh that's great.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: I love that we had so much conflict for a year.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Now I don't get stressed out by conflict. I actually
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: appreciate a hard conversation. So I only share that to
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: say that if you are listening and feeling that, yeah,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: it is something that you can practice.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I had to tell someone I was coaching. I said,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure you and your manager are
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: ever going to like be buds, so why don't you
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: focus on building the best team this organization has ever
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: seen in your function? Because trust me, word will get around.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: So you don't need to be the one. You have
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: nothing to prove, per se, but go do the best
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: you can possibly do. And trust me, his boss is
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: going to find out how good you are because the
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: top bosses have plants, they have people. Somebody once told
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: me you seem to have your ear to the ground.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: It was like, huh, I probably do. It wasn't an
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: active thing that I did. It's simply that people felt
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: comfortable coming to me because they felt that they could
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: what trust me.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to give you some rapid fires. Okay,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: the workplace trend you didn't see coming. Yoga pants, the
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: workplace trend that will not age well.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Yoga pants.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: The number one thing not to put in a cover.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Letter your test scores, work.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: From home, return to office or hybrid.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Return to office. I want to tell you why later
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: we keep going.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Okay. The most outdated aspect of applying for jobs algorithms.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: First red flag in an interview.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Wasn't kind to the admin.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Overused corporate word that needs to retire immediately.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: I've been out. Now, let's see there's some of these
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: platitudes that sound so stupid.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: We'll circle back, a title that people chase that just
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: is not worth the stress.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Anything but a c.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: The fastest way to lose credibility in.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: A room talk too much.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: The twenty twenty six way to say, per my last email.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Maybe you didn't understand.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Jinny, MF and Clark, thank you. You're so wonderful.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: What a pleasure. Thank you.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: to have a good day. I'll see you next week.