Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How To Become DEI Champions with Sacha Martina and Danielle Jiskoot | Episode 100

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How To Become DEI Champions with Sacha Martina and Danielle Jiskoot | Episode 100 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:00
Yeah, that's that's also what I would say.
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So we love to call out the ally in everyone because everybody
0:06
can be an ally for other underrepresented people.
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So if you are not queer, you can still go to a queer party and be
0:15
an ally there and learn also from other communities because
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that's how you can help them in listening and seeing and
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experiencing what they experienced.
0:26
And sometimes use your privileges more for goods.
0:40
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
0:42
My name is Der Konopkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
0:46
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
0:50
each other. Join me on your journey into the
0:53
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
0:57
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
1:01
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
1:06
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
1:15
Disrupting Tech and thank you for tuning into a very special
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episode 100. Before I introduce my guest on
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this episode, I want to thank everyone who has helped me get
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here. A special thanks to my guest in
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the previous 99 episodes for inspiring my audience with their
1:33
stories. Also, a big thank you to Mihu
1:37
Sujit Raid for pushing me to make a business out of this
1:40
podcast. And last but not least, I want
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to thank Sangeeta Bhosa, my girlfriend, for her unwavering
1:46
support. With that, let me introduce my
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guests on this special episode 100, Sasha Martina and Danielle
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Hiscoat. They are the founders of House
1:57
of Inclusion and in this episode they will share their recipe for
2:00
companies to become the EI champions.
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By listening to this episode, you'll discover the road map to
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becoming a DEI champion by focusing on people instead of
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profit is just smart business and the importance of allies and
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why everyone can and should become one.
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Plus, you'll hear about a new initiative that came up while we
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recorded the episode that would highlight companies that are DI
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leaders and driving systemic change.
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So when you're ready to listen and learn how we can build DEI
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champions in tech and beyond, please Welcome to women
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disrupting tech episode 100. Sasha Martina and Danielle
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Ezcote Danielle Ezcote Sasha Martina.
2:46
Welcome to women disrupting tech.
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Good to have you may be good if you tell the audience how you
2:54
got into your current positions as founders of House of
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Inclusion. Sasha, you go first.
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Yes, first of all, thank you so much for inviting us and we are
3:05
excited to talk to you about House of Inclusion and
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everything that we are doing on a day-to-day level.
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But I, I got in this current position because I was very
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mission driven around everything.
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It has to do with diversity, equity and inclusion, I think
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already for all, all of my life. But it became extra, extra
3:28
special around the period of Black Lives matters for me
3:32
personally. And the the bigger dream and
3:35
ambition to really start an agency around that became
3:40
reality. You know when me and Danny
3:42
became good friends and decided to start up this adventure in
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the end of 2023? Yeah.
3:53
So Daniella at. The same as Sasha.
3:55
Well, well, I've been working on the topic for quite a few years.
4:01
I think it dates back to when I was studying.
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I studied political science. I already saw that there's a lot
4:11
to do with your platform when you come from a place of
4:13
privilege, but also from a place of knowledge to help make the
4:17
world more equitable. And it wasn't until I started
4:21
working that I saw that there was a lot of inequality at work
4:25
as well. So besides everything that's
4:28
going on in society and worldwide, I saw on the work
4:30
floor, there's a lot of inequality too.
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And when I started noticing it, but also God's mental issues
4:40
because of it at the work floor, I decided this is something to
4:43
really start focusing on. And this was about, I don't even
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know, maybe about 8 years ago or so.
4:51
Same as also we met each other. I became a speaker on the topic
4:54
as well, started a different agency.
4:56
And then Salsa and I decided to get together in house.
4:59
Conclusion at the end of 2023. So how did 2 of you meet Sasha?
5:04
But it is a fun story. So we are both public speakers
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and we always say we are very obsessed with the topic.
5:15
And then it becomes also a very natural thing to talk about, to
5:18
speak about. And in that period, both of us
5:21
got asked more and more to speak on stages and to participate in
5:26
panels. And this was one of those nights
5:29
where Danielle was invited to participate in the panel.
5:34
And I was sitting in the room because it was about female
5:38
leadership and female empowerment or something around
5:42
those topics. And she was in the panel.
5:45
And I, I thought this lady is very cool.
5:48
She talked a lot about diversity, she talked a lot
5:51
about drag Queens. And that was, for me a trigger
5:54
to to go talk to her. OK.
5:57
Yeah. And then Daniela, you said, Oh
6:01
yes, let's start a business together.
6:04
Where? No, that was not the process,
6:07
unfortunately. So it was.
6:09
I remember that, yeah, the room was full of women, but we had a
6:12
conversation afterwards during drinks, we just had a chat and I
6:15
remember social texting me after saying hey, let's go for a
6:18
drink. And this was nothing to do with
6:21
starting a business together or anything like that.
6:23
I was still in my previous company that I started together
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with two amazing Co founders as well.
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And we managed a lot of drag Queens but also other talents.
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And then we had coffee. But it was just to talk about
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being an entrepreneur and being a female entrepreneur as well.
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Even though it shouldn't make a difference, it sometimes just
6:42
does. And we talked about just, yeah,
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little things that we encounter when, when we're working.
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So we developed a friendship 1st and over the years we just, we
6:52
called each other when something was happening at our current job
6:55
or something with our team and we needed someone to reach out
6:58
to. So it started building from a
7:00
mutual level of friendship and trust being founders ourselves.
7:05
And then we just reached a certain point kind of at the
7:08
same time where we decided our business is great and we're
7:12
having a lot of fun, but it's time for a next mission.
7:15
And that's when we started seeing that DE and I was
7:17
becoming a bigger topic as well for companies to focus on.
7:21
So it was kind of hand in hand with the developments around DEI
7:24
and we just started talking and when we were in process of
7:28
leaving our previous company operationally, we said, well,
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maybe the next step is to work together.
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So that's when the idea of House of Inclusion came into
7:37
existence. And maybe good also to say what
7:41
House of inclusion then is does. So House of Inclusion is a
7:47
modern age consultancy and we say modern age on purpose
7:53
because we give advice, we give a variety of services, but we
7:59
are very pragmatic. We try to make it fun and give
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our clients hands on tools and tips where they can that they
8:10
can implement very quickly. And that's why a lot of times
8:15
when you say consultancy, people also have a not, not the same
8:19
assumption as what we are offering.
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So we offer a variety of things. We offer a lot of workshops and
8:28
trainings to create impact and to build awareness within
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companies. We do a lot of keynotes as well.
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Those are almost like we say short impact sessions, but we
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also do a lot our more strategy sprints.
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So there is something that we help clients with a very agile
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way. So we help them in a Sprint way
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towards a more inclusive goal, but we also help writing
8:53
policies around diversity, equity and inclusion.
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We help with events and creating more inclusive events.
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So it's a quite a broad range of of services that we offer
9:05
always. So with a goal in mind that we
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believe every company can become a DNI champion.
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OK, going back to something Daniela just said, does being a
9:15
woman help that in that regard? Good question.
9:19
I don't know if helping is the right word for it.
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It's it's just a different experience.
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So a man could also do this, someone who is or identifies as
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a man. It's about the experience that
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you have. So within DNI, it's such a huge
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topic. There's you have neurodiversity
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of LGBTQ plus you have gender, you have accessibility.
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There's so many things to cover. So also if you're assist, white
9:51
men assist is when you're born as a man and identify as male
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and but you're in a wheelchair, for example.
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You can also work on the topic or if you've just experienced
10:00
something at work before. So it's, there's really not a
10:04
way to say discriminate within the team.
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So I, for example, I'm, I'm a white sis woman and I come from
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a very well off town in the middle of the Netherlands.
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So I come with a lot of privilege.
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But then I also have I'm a part of the LGBTQ plus community.
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I'm a female founder. So that gives me certain topics
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within DEI. So everyone has their own
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experience. So anyone could work on the
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theme basically. And also if you're a white
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heterosexual male. Yeah, like me. 100%.
10:35
Yeah. So anyone could work on it?
10:36
Yeah. Yeah, for, well, I've been
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working on it for a for a while now.
10:40
But, but does it, do you think it, yes, I agree that everyone
10:45
is able to do this. But do you think sort of in
10:50
terms of reverse privilege that it gives you an extra edge if
10:56
you've experienced, let's say, being on the wrong side of the
11:00
DEI debate? Yeah, maybe that does give an
11:04
extra edge. It's good to know it.
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But with every theme, it's good if you speak from experience.
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So it gives you an extra layer of also being an expert on your
11:13
own theme. So it definitely does.
11:15
But there's yeah platform for for so many groups within this
11:20
theme. But definitely when you speak
11:23
about a certain topic, if you've experienced it yourself, it
11:26
gives you 100% more expertise and it also makes it a stronger
11:30
position to be in. So that's yes, could help for
11:33
sure. So Shasha, let's go to DEI.
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What's broken currently in company companies with DEI that
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you can help them with? Let me let me rephrase it.
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Why are not all companies DEI champions yet?
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Well, that is, that is the dream, because then we can do
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something else with our day, with our day jobs, right?
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But why? Why it's not there yet that is
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that is a layered question. But one of the big things is
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that you do see in the, in the business world and that is also
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reflecting not just in the, in the business, but also for
12:12
example, in the medical industry and in so many in the financial
12:17
industry is that if we only focus already on the point of
12:21
gender that women have a disadvantage.
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So we we are now starting to become a bit more equal and get
12:31
equal opportunities. But I don't have to tell you
12:34
that, yeah, we have a disadvantage because a lot of
12:37
times women's rights were not at this at an equal level as men's
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rights. But that is the same for a lot
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of intersections next to just gender things like your cultural
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background, your socioeconomic background, the ability that you
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have physically and mentally, all these things come in place.
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Yeah, the the people that build a company that create a company
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and build a company used to be a pretty homo homo, sorry,
13:11
homogeneous group without without placing too many people
13:16
in boxes, but it used to be quite a similar group of people
13:20
that decided the vision and the future of a lot of companies.
13:24
And if you want to, yeah, change that.
13:27
While the company's already established and is, is, is quite
13:31
big, it becomes more and more difficult.
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So not impossible at all. But you do see the later in in a
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stage a company is actually starting to focus on this and
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starting to learn about this, the more difficult it is to
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change these, these values and these beliefs that always have
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been the way that they have been.
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And we do see a big significant change, for example, with more
13:58
start up and scale up companies where almost from the start the
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founding team is talking about this and is constantly
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challenging each other on are we being a good representation of
14:12
society? Are we being a good
14:14
representation of our clients? And if not, how can we change
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that? On what?
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Where should we change things or create a bigger impact to become
14:25
a stronger and inclusive company and therefore the changes are
14:29
much easier to accomplish? And maybe to add on Sasha as
14:33
well is that of course for years we've had company cultures where
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numbers were the number one thing and performance was the
14:40
number one thing. But what we didn't look at is
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what is behind those numbers and how do we perform better?
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It was solely based on outcome. So the problem is that we had to
14:50
kind of reverse engineer. Do we look at the people 1st and
14:53
then how they become successful or the success 1st and then the
14:56
people? What we understand now more and
14:58
more is that when the people are actually happy within their
15:01
company, they feel supported and they feel they can do their best
15:03
job, then the performance goes up.
15:05
So we've actually been looking at it wrong for so many years
15:09
and now with the new generation leaders, we see that it flips.
15:12
So it's actually the other way around.
15:15
OK. So, but going back to let's say
15:20
what is broken. So there's we used to have
15:24
indeed a lot of focus on let's say financial performance in
15:27
particular earnings per share to to take just one item.
15:36
So what is to if, if you if you break it down, what what
15:41
happened as a result of that to people, to planet, to customers,
15:48
because you said Daniela that you had rental problems as a
15:53
result of of the the culture. So is is that?
15:59
I assume that's more common. Yeah, very common.
16:02
And I think it's not a generational thing that we start
16:06
with that because there's a lot of people that say, yeah, but
16:08
this generation just gets sick quicker or, you know, is is
16:12
weaker when it comes to work. They don't want to work as much.
16:14
It has nothing to do with it. The difference is that's back in
16:17
the day, we just ignored it and told people to keep working,
16:22
with the result being that they even got sicker.
16:25
I developed a panic disorder when I was around 25 years old
16:28
and lasted for I think about four years very intensively and
16:32
it meant I had a panic attack every single day.
16:35
So whether I was going on the car on a train, visiting a
16:39
client, it was constant and it was because of the pressure of
16:44
you have to keep working and keep performing instead of how
16:48
is it actually going with the work?
16:50
How do I feel supported by the people that I work with?
16:53
And even though I ignored it because I, I was working in
16:57
sales, I understood that I need to be result rift and there was
17:00
more that I needed, but there wasn't any space to talk about
17:03
that. And the result is that I stopped
17:04
working. So instead, if I had someone
17:07
telling me, can we have a talk and see how we can improve
17:10
things, maybe I would have stayed at the company.
17:13
So the thing that is broken is that we sometimes still ignore
17:19
how we can make people perform best and the result being people
17:23
leave teams, people leave companies, and sometimes they
17:26
don't even return in the same industry.
17:27
So it's just a waste because your biggest asset is your
17:31
people. Even though you're selling a
17:32
product, the biggest asset is your people.
17:34
So why wouldn't you focus enough on that?
17:36
Sounds pretty logical I think. Yeah, it isn't.
17:41
But so. So you are creating DEI
17:46
Champions, Sasha, what makes the company DEI Champion?
17:52
What? What?
17:53
Maybe wrong question, wrong way of phrasing it, but what boxes
17:57
do I need to check? It's a, it's a good question.
18:00
It's a good question. So DNI champion.
18:02
So we maybe it's good to explain that we define five stages or
18:09
five phases of maturity within becoming a DNI champion because
18:15
you don't become one overnight. And I think it's also important
18:18
to emphasize that we are very happy that more and more
18:23
companies are paying attention to this and that they book a
18:27
speaker, that they book a keynote or a workshop or they
18:31
spend some time on it. But also it's important to know
18:36
that becoming a DNI champion is the same like training for for
18:42
the biggest marathon of your life because it is a constant
18:45
thing you need to work on and it's almost like a muscle that
18:49
you want to keep on training. So we define five phases of
18:55
becoming a champion and it starts with awareness.
18:59
And that is a phase that in all honesty, most companies still
19:04
are and they are in the awareness of about around the
19:08
topics that we just discussed. So it is more than gender.
19:11
We also talk about neurodiversity, about
19:14
accessibility, about mental health, about physical health,
19:19
about so many things. And for a lot of people that is
19:22
already an eye opener that wow, it is so much more than I
19:26
thought. From awareness, we go to
19:30
intentional, which is the second phase where it becomes a bit
19:35
more normal and you start talking a bit more about
19:39
policies and you start with implementing smaller policies
19:44
because the intention is well to grow in that maturity in phase
19:49
three, Phase three, sorry, we go to what we call integrated
19:54
phase, where the policies and the processes are aligned and
20:01
embedded. And then we talk a lot to
20:04
recruitment processes, HR processes, employer branding,
20:09
marketing is more yeah, embedded in, in what do they want to
20:14
achieve with becoming a DNI champion?
20:17
Phase 4 is more about sustainability.
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So how can we make sure that this is not a one time thing,
20:23
but it's it's, it's stays sustainable.
20:26
And with that phase, we need a lot of extra support from
20:30
leadership. So leadership is important
20:32
throughout all phases from the, from the beginning, but
20:36
especially becoming more of a leader.
20:39
So also showcasing, well, maybe other companies in your domain
20:43
or in your vertical that this is how you do it.
20:48
And then the sort of the ultimate phase is that you
20:51
become an influencer. So we call it the influential
20:53
phase, and the word already says it right?
20:56
So you are the one that other people look at.
20:59
OK. Can you give an example of of
21:02
one of the, let's say, foreign quote influencer companies that
21:05
we have right now? That is also a really good
21:08
question because I think if you ask me honestly, company that
21:13
that takes all the boxes does not exist yet, but there are
21:19
definitely a couple of names that are coming very, very
21:21
close. So a couple of examples that we
21:24
love to use are Patagonia, a clothing brand that has
21:29
sustainability and inclusivity in their core values from the
21:34
from the start, but they're also continuously are adapting and
21:38
learning to what is happening around the world.
21:41
So they are definitely one to watch.
21:44
And another one in a very different domain, for example,
21:47
that we love to use as an example is Salesforce, which is
21:50
of course a big tech company. But especially within tech,
21:55
there is still a lot of ground to win around inclusivity.
21:58
But topics like equal pay, gender equality on leadership
22:02
levels are things that they have already achieved years ago.
22:06
So they are definitely one to watch.
22:09
OK, so those Patagonia and Salesforce are companies to to
22:15
look out for. If you want an example, let's
22:17
say for the your next step, this is where you want to go on on
22:23
the policy level. A question that really is in my
22:27
mind is like, OK, how do we avoid that?
22:31
This becomes a policy for policy sake.
22:35
How do we avoid that? It becomes, yeah, I have to have
22:40
an inclusive or an inclusive culture because policy says so
22:44
and not because I intrinsically think this is the right way to
22:49
go. You know what the, the, The
22:51
thing is, this is, this is kind of the same as green washing,
22:54
right? We can throw it under the same
22:56
umbrella, pink washing. So when it comes to the LGBTQ
22:58
plus community, it's very hard to define when it's just for
23:02
policy, policy sake and when it isn't.
23:06
What the main identifier is to look out for is how do people
23:11
treat their people actually within the company.
23:14
So if for example, So pride is always a great example.
23:16
I think also because we work with so many examples, if a
23:20
company saying we're organizing an event, but we know for a fact
23:23
that people who are from the community don't feel safe
23:26
working there. That is when it's just something
23:28
they implement because they just want to do it for outsides, sort
23:32
of saying. So when you really want to make
23:35
sure that it's a policy, that's is something that's ingrained
23:38
within your business, it becomes part of your DNA.
23:41
So it'll flow way further than just one thing.
23:44
So if we talk about gender balance, for example, we can say
23:48
we want equity within a company, so say 5050 of of gender balance
23:53
in in management teams. But at the same time, women
23:57
should feel safe within a company, just as safe as men.
24:00
We should should not have reporting of women feeling
24:03
unsafe at work. So that means that that's just
24:05
maybe a policy that they just put down because they have to,
24:08
but not work on it actively. So that is definitely a red flag
24:12
to look out for. So when you hear noises within a
24:14
company that they say, I don't notice anything about this, no
24:18
one's actually talking about this or we haven't heard about
24:21
it, those are definitely red flags.
24:23
But what we do encourage, and this is something that we really
24:27
want to tell companies, is don't be afraid to try because we also
24:30
talk with a lot of companies to say, yeah, but then I start and
24:33
then I feel like I'm just doing it for the outsides.
24:36
The most important thing is tell people that you're trying,
24:39
especially in your company. So I explained to them, we have
24:42
a policy now we're going to try to set this up, trial and error,
24:45
we're going to bring you along. And then you actually take a
24:48
first step. So even if you feel like you're
24:51
just doing it for the outside, but you have the right
24:53
intention, tell people. And that's when you take it away
24:56
immediately. So red flags are if you just do
25:00
it and don't actually talk to your people about it.
25:03
But if you start doing it, you take away the loads.
25:06
OK. So it's also a lot about
25:08
communication then? A lot, yeah.
25:11
And it's, we think the biggest part is it doesn't always have
25:15
to be something in. We hear a lot of companies to
25:17
say, yeah, but on our websites, we need to have diverse people.
25:21
But that's of course, just a really, really small grain of
25:24
the impact that you make. It's not about the models that
25:27
you put in your clothing on the website, for example, but it's
25:31
about what do you do inside of the company.
25:34
It can be small things, just emails saying, hey, we're taking
25:37
more efforts in celebrating International Women's Day.
25:40
We're setting up a survey now so we can test how people feel
25:43
within a company. Small, small things.
25:45
And communication also can be small.
25:47
But really, yes, start from communication and then you're
25:51
already on your way. OK.
25:52
Is that also the key step, let's say, to move from the awareness
25:59
stage where I guess everyone is aware that there are something
26:04
like DEI right now and even if they were not Mr. Trump, we'll
26:10
make them aware in the wrong way, but that's not a matter.
26:16
But awareness wise, we're there. But his communication also the
26:23
key to to, let's say, take the next step to.
26:26
So to move from the awareness stage to the implementation
26:30
stage to really start. Yeah, also good question.
26:36
But yes, one of the biggest steps that a lot of times
26:42
organisations forgets is, is communication.
26:45
So not just communication and taking your people into the over
26:49
moving forward, but also just to the, the, the regular
26:53
communication on what are we doing?
26:55
Because every time when we speak to companies, we find out by
27:00
yeah, by doing an intake with them, that's they're already
27:04
doing quite some interesting things and they forget the most
27:08
crucial step. And that is talking about that,
27:10
talking about it outside of the leadership doors, but talking
27:14
with their teams, talking in their internal and their
27:17
external communication. So that is already such a yes.
27:22
Feels like a low hanging fruit step almost to take, but a very
27:26
crucial one that they forget. Why?
27:29
Why do they? Why do they forget to step?
27:33
Yeah, that is that is a really good one.
27:36
I think in the it's on the one hand it's in the heat of the
27:38
moment and as business as usual becomes very normal for them to
27:43
do something. So to to give you an example,
27:47
yesterday we had a very nice session with one of our clients
27:51
fashion brands and they have something very nice that that
27:56
that give everybody an extra day off.
27:59
And you don't have to give up the reason why you take the day
28:02
off. So you can use it because it's
28:04
your coming out day. You can use it because you want
28:07
to celebrate Iftar. You can use it because you want
28:10
to take your mom a day shopping. It doesn't really matter.
28:13
It's it's a personal extra day with the idea behind it, with an
28:17
inclusive mindset, everybody can use an A day extra.
28:21
You don't have to explain what, what are you using it for?
28:25
But they forgot to talk about it with their people.
28:29
So they were surprised that not a lot of people are taking that
28:32
day. But that's also because that
28:34
sort of last step of communicating about it, what,
28:38
what can you use it for? Why is important?
28:41
Why are we supporting this? That makes all the difference
28:45
because there's a lot of people that can complain behind the
28:48
scenes and don't really know what is already in place.
28:52
So that's why we love to get to take our clients by the hand and
28:55
inspire them to also look at what are we already doing and
28:58
how can we get more out of the efforts that we are doing and
29:02
what can we add from there on. OK, Final question about this
29:06
topic is about timeline. So you move from awareness to
29:11
implementation to integration to more the the championing of and
29:17
the influencing part. How long does that entire
29:21
process take on average, Daniella?
29:25
It depends. That's a really boring answer.
29:28
It's 100% depending on how willing the the management team
29:33
is to do it and the people within the company.
29:36
So there's no, there's no magic bullet for implementing
29:39
something like this. In some industries, people are
29:42
way more on board with the topic than others.
29:46
Some industries deal with a lot more, say really ingrained
29:51
discrimination because of the the workforce or the kind of
29:55
work that they do. And then you need to work way
29:57
longer on the process, take baby steps towards it.
30:00
Whereas some other companies can take strides and take a Sprint
30:04
because the team is already on board and they understand this
30:06
is something that we're doing. So when I think about it, the
30:10
main ingredients actually are well, management's way of
30:13
communicating it. How effectively can they and how
30:16
much buy in do they have from their team, but also the team's
30:19
willingness to do it so? And this is this is the
30:23
management team's willingness to do it from the rest of the
30:26
company. So you, of course, you can't
30:29
pull people into the process. They work at your company, they
30:31
don't want a huge culture change most of the time.
30:34
So when they're not on board, you need to take baby steps to
30:37
get them on board. So there's, I don't think really
30:40
an average because it depends on a company, but that's also the
30:43
beauty of it. Like Sasha said, it's really a
30:45
marathon. You're never done learning.
30:47
But it also means in things like this or getting from one step to
30:50
the other, it's, it depends. But the most important thing is
30:55
in every case to take it step by step.
30:57
So don't go from zero to 100. You can't go from the first
31:00
maturity stage to the 5th, but it's.
31:03
But they won't go anyway. No.
31:06
And it's it's the same as when you're building your career,
31:08
right? You can start with the end goal
31:10
in mind and then be there tomorrow.
31:12
And it's the same with DEI. You got to take it in steps.
31:16
So let's say I've my company has achieved this champion state.
31:22
What does this look like in terms of how it benefits the
31:27
company, me as a manager and also the shareholders so.
31:33
That is a long list of benefits that have come to place and we
31:37
always love to use examples from some of the great consultancy
31:43
companies that do a lot of research on this.
31:48
So for example, McKinsey and Deloitte are two big names that
31:54
annually do a lot of research on what is the outcome of the
31:58
companies that are investing in this.
32:01
So some things that are good to mention is it is extremely
32:06
beneficial for your innovative powers if you bring, if you
32:11
become as diverse, but more importantly an inclusive
32:15
workplace. People are more productive and
32:20
with more productivity also comes more innovation.
32:23
It is also really, really great for your retention because if
32:28
people are happy, they don't want to leave.
32:30
If they get inspired and grow and learn from other people in
32:35
their team, why would you leave? And if there are equal
32:38
opportunities for you to achieve whatever you want, because some
32:43
people have the ambition to become the next CEO, but there's
32:45
also people who want to become a subject matter expert in their
32:49
own field of expertise. If you see people that are
32:52
achieving that, that look like you or have a similar background
32:57
like you, chances are much bigger than you think.
33:00
Hey, listen, I can also end up on that position, so.
33:04
Yeah, role model. Yeah, especially since the focus
33:06
now is more and more on retaining your talent instead of
33:10
just hiring, hiring, hiring, which you which we have seen
33:15
right in the last few years that focus was very much on high
33:18
volume hiring. But the retention rates were
33:21
going up and up because people were not feeling safe or not
33:25
feeling included or there were a multitude of reasons and the
33:30
market was interesting enough because people could get
33:33
something new within a week. So now we are very happy to see
33:38
that the focus has been shifted much more on retailing talent
33:42
and that also becomes easier if you work on diversity, equity
33:45
and inclusion, OK. So how?
33:48
How? Does that then relate to each
33:50
other, the two of them? So the the focus, focusing on
33:55
the eye and retaining talent, is that through the lens of OK, I
34:01
have my role models in place, I create a safe space.
34:05
Yeah, that's one of the that's. One of the layers, so one of the
34:09
things is people. People spend so much time at
34:12
work. So you want to be at a place
34:15
where you are valued, where you are seeing, where you are
34:18
recognized and where you are safe and where you can talk
34:21
about anything that you need to talk about.
34:23
So that can be career goals, but it can also be things like
34:27
things that matter to you personally.
34:29
And the bet the more you can do that, the less reason there is
34:33
for you to look somewhere else to find that.
34:37
What you said as well. Very, very true about role
34:39
models. For me, that was a personally
34:42
also a big one. I I was always very ambitious
34:46
and I never saw women of color achieving management or director
34:52
positions. Almost never.
34:54
Or they were already way beyond like close to their pension age.
35:00
And if you are a young, ambitious professional, you also
35:03
want to see women in their 30s and their 40s, you know,
35:06
stepping on that ladder more like you.
35:09
Or closer and also in age to you.
35:11
Yeah, yeah, and and and still. Age is, is, is is one of the
35:15
factors. But you want to, you want to see
35:18
what you want to achieve. And for some people that is very
35:21
normal, very logical, because we see some directors or VPS or
35:27
CEOs that look a certain way or have a certain educational level
35:32
that makes it very logical that they end up in that position.
35:36
But there are multiple ways that you become can become ACEO.
35:40
Of course, you don't always have to have three master degrees.
35:44
So that's why it's so important that the representation of all
35:48
those different levels that is there in a healthy way.
35:52
And one of the things that that we say is also, is your company
35:56
a good representation of a society?
36:00
Because if it's a good representation of society, it
36:02
means everybody can recognize themselves somewhere within
36:07
within the company. And that makes that makes it
36:10
easier to attract people, but even more to retain them.
36:14
OK, so how? How do we, how do quota fit in
36:18
Daniela? There's we.
36:20
We get a lot. Of questions around quotes and,
36:22
and especially people being very for or very against quotes.
36:25
All right, so this is what we hear a lot.
36:28
So people saying, I think it's very unnecessary and it's going
36:31
to help in the wrong way. And the, the honest answer is
36:35
in, in some ways it really helps and in some ways it doesn't
36:37
right. So in, in some companies, it's a
36:39
great idea just because they're not getting any more heads and
36:42
it's very important to start implementing it because
36:45
otherwise they're just not going to get ahead.
36:47
There's some industries that really struggle getting women in
36:49
place and in those cases, quota can help because you say this is
36:54
simply just a goal. We have a KPI and we want to
36:57
have this percentage of women in leadership roles periods.
37:01
And in that case it helps because sometimes you need a
37:04
certain what we say in Duchess stick behind the door head.
37:07
So something that makes you really work towards it.
37:11
And then a quota helps. In some cases it's very
37:15
unnecessary because it's only going to help people resent the
37:18
the the topic of DNI and then you shouldn't do it.
37:22
And this is in companies that's already started working on the
37:24
theme already think that they're getting ahead of it.
37:27
In that case, you don't have to start working with quotas, but
37:30
in some cases, in order to get ahead, you simply need to have a
37:34
percentage. So we talked to some of our
37:36
advisors and people that we work closely with as well, and some
37:40
of them have said years ago when there wasn't any gender balance
37:44
within companies, we simply had to have a quota just to get it
37:48
started. And then at some point you can
37:50
let it go. So the simple answer is with
37:53
quotas that they can really, really help in the right
37:56
circumstances. But the most important thing is
37:58
to talk to an expert or a consultant to see if they do in
38:00
your case and then you can put them in place.
38:03
So, but it's also about. Sort of creating a lever to get
38:10
you to a next level, but only to do that.
38:14
Yeah. And the the the.
38:15
Bad thing is, and this is also with the term woke, for example,
38:18
also a quota. We developed such a resentment
38:21
for the words just because of media.
38:24
So when we started to talk about these topics, people said, ah,
38:26
quota. But it's only going to make it
38:28
more unfair and it's going to make it more unbalanced.
38:32
But it's not, it's not the case. It's very black and white
38:35
thinking. Sometimes it helps, simple as
38:37
that. OK.
38:40
What what what other things are hard about getting or creating
38:44
the EI champions? But it's hard in.
38:47
Creating them, yes. Well, an easy answer is the
38:51
current state of media in the world.
38:53
I think what we've seen is that, well, diversity and inclusion
38:59
was first coined as a topic within companies in about the
39:03
80s, nineties. And it's been very dormant up
39:06
until Black Lives Matter. What Sasha talks about before as
39:08
well, when companies massively started to invest in in the
39:13
topic. So this was during COVID time.
39:16
What we see now is that when a topic is so new and things like
39:19
this happen within a political landscape is that a lot of
39:23
companies and people will start to rely on that and say, see, it
39:27
doesn't work. See, it's something we shouldn't
39:29
do. Confirmation.
39:31
Bias kicks in exactly so that's what makes it.
39:34
Really, really hard at the moment is people getting
39:36
extremely biased by what they read in the media and what they
39:40
hear from political leaders. What's we try to do is is hold a
39:45
mirror in front of people and say if if you unload the topic a
39:49
little bit, don't listen to politics, do we agree it's
39:52
important to focus on your people within a company because
39:54
that's basically all it means. So a huge challenge is debunking
39:58
everything that we're reading and what we're hearing.
40:01
But definitely also what comes with that is what people then
40:03
bring into the conversation. So what is often the most tricky
40:07
thing in our processes is when people start to.
40:11
Sort of in yeah, intercepts the process and say, yeah, but I
40:16
read something about this or actually I don't agree.
40:18
And then try to affect the people around them.
40:22
That is something that makes it really hard for us to set it up.
40:25
What we keep trying to do is make the theme smaller if we
40:29
need to and say very easy. All it means is that we focus on
40:32
people and we focus on the culture.
40:34
So we can mostly all agree that that's something that's
40:37
important to focus on. OK, so.
40:40
Making the. Topic bite size is a way of
40:45
dealing. With it.
40:46
Yeah, what makes it fun? I think one of the.
40:50
So many things make it fun besides the fact that we love to
40:55
see it click almost. So when you offer it more in
41:01
bite size pieces, it becomes easier and and also more fun for
41:08
other people to work with. And sometimes we we tend to
41:12
forget that for us, this is Our Daily Bread and butter.
41:16
But for most people it's not. So if you can help people get
41:21
inspired by all the opportunities there are in
41:26
creating a more inclusive workforce and inclusive
41:28
policies, you see that they start having fun with it as
41:32
well. So we challenged them on a
41:35
creative level and we challenged them on a personal level.
41:39
And yeah, by opening up and being a little bit vulnerable,
41:44
you see that people get to know each other better.
41:46
So we've been working with management teams that have
41:49
worked together for years and years.
41:52
And after one workshop, they, they, they, they learned so much
41:57
that they never knew about each other.
41:59
Also because nobody ever asked them or challenged them on the
42:03
levels that we do when we want to make them a DNI champion.
42:07
So it's a lot of fun and it's beautiful to see the progress
42:11
that companies and people are making once they open up to the
42:16
topic more. OK.
42:18
Danielle, anything to add? I think what?
42:24
Makes it also. A lot of fun is to see that more
42:28
and more people are understanding how important it
42:30
is because it's such a new topic as well for companies.
42:33
It's also it's it's exciting to see where it's taking everyone.
42:38
And it's, it's such a controversy now.
42:40
It's a talk about it, which makes it also very exciting.
42:44
But whatever we hear coming from the US, we see that a lot of
42:47
people are connecting with it more and more because it's never
42:50
been so widespread that we talk about.
42:52
It's never been on on the front page of a newspaper.
42:56
So even though we think that a lot of people are now starting
42:59
to be against it, it's exciting to see that a lot of people are
43:01
connecting with it more and more.
43:04
Yeah. And also what I think is a great
43:06
part is when you had a session, someone comes to you and says,
43:09
you change the way that I thought or you changed the way
43:13
that I see myself within this company.
43:15
And we also have a lot of people that say, I was always afraid to
43:18
talk about this and now I can or now I want to.
43:20
So we even have people coming out during sessions.
43:24
And those are moments you think, Oh my God, this is, it's really
43:26
making an impact. So what is great about this
43:29
topic is you sometimes directly feel what you're doing and the
43:32
changes you're making. So that's what's exciting about
43:35
it. OK, Yeah, I can.
43:37
Imagine that if you have someone really, well, at least coming
43:44
out in the sense of OK, I, I now understand why this is really
43:49
important and I want to, yeah, help that, that, that those are
43:56
really magical moments. Yeah, that I can understand.
43:58
Literally people that said. In front of my whole team.
44:01
I never told you before, but I'm bisexual.
44:04
And then, you know, like people that will physically, literally
44:06
come out, which is huge for them to do, and then for them to feel
44:11
the freedom to do that is. Yeah, that's magical.
44:15
Yeah. That's that I can.
44:16
Imagine. Absolutely.
44:19
So I had a question here, but I'm going to ask this a bit
44:23
differently. Let's.
44:27
Say Donald Trump. Is listening what, what, What
44:34
advice would you give him to make the the US government more
44:39
diverse and more inclusive? What?
44:43
What is the first? Step he should take besides
44:45
calling you and that is a big one.
44:50
I think we would we have achieved our our goal if Donald
44:53
Trump calls us because he wants to make his his team more
44:56
inclusive. But I think my, my tip would be,
45:01
or my first advice would be, besides working with us,
45:04
obviously is, is, is to start listening to people and really
45:11
listening. So what do you need?
45:13
What do you feel and what can we do or what can I do?
45:18
And that's cost nothing besides time.
45:23
But listening to your people and, and really asking for
45:26
constructive feedback on how you have been doing and how you can
45:30
do better is already a very big step to take.
45:34
And that will be my first advice.
45:37
OK, Danielle, I. Think.
45:38
Well, the first thing I would say.
45:40
Is you are in the wrong position and you got to get someone else
45:44
in. To be honest that's the first
45:46
thing I'd say if he really wants to stay and he has a change of
45:49
heart and he says I want to work on a topic.
45:52
I fully agree with Sauce. It's just start listening to
45:55
people but also see what the effects have been so far of you
46:01
disregarding the topic because it hasn't been pretty.
46:05
Someone said there was a funny quote about it but basically
46:08
when we still at DNI that the the banks were still good and
46:11
the economy was great. So it's also take a look at the
46:14
effect that it actually has. So hasn't done any good to
46:17
reverse it so far. So for him a tip would really be
46:21
to yeah, take a look in the mirror and listen to the people
46:24
around you because they'll definitely advise you otherwise.
46:27
But if he would listen to this, I'd literally eat my shoe
46:31
because me too. I don't know if he.
46:33
Would I don't know if. He would, but if he's listening,
46:35
we'd like to have a visa to. Travel in the US.
46:38
So. Yeah, I, I don't know about
46:43
that, but I, I hope at one point someone there will start
46:48
listening and paying attention because I to your point, I agree
46:51
that most of the stuff he has reversed that has so far led to
46:58
more instability than than good things.
47:00
But yeah, maybe that's his plan. I don't know.
47:03
Yeah. And then also looking at.
47:05
Like Harvard, for example, which is the latest example that it
47:09
says, well, we won't, we simply won't listen because it's it's
47:12
against everything we stand for. So if you say you're the lend of
47:16
the free, then you have to live up to it at least.
47:19
Yeah, this. Amen to that.
47:22
Yeah. I I really hope that.
47:24
There are more universities who are like, OK, yeah, I we
47:27
understand that you asked this, but we're not simply not going
47:30
to execute on it. Yeah, exactly.
47:34
So. What I.
47:37
Was wondering about. Are you bootstrapped or is it do
47:44
you look for investors at all? Not at the moment, no.
47:48
So far we'll bootstrap, but there will be things in the
47:51
future, right SUS yes, of course we have.
47:55
We have very ambitious plans, but we started bootstrapped.
47:59
We are still bootstrapped and if anybody is interested invest,
48:03
they could always, you know, send us Adm or slide in our DMS.
48:08
But so far we've been doing very, very well Bootstrapped.
48:12
OK, cool. But that's on purpose then.
48:19
Yes and no. So both of us come from
48:24
commercial backgrounds and our previous companies have also
48:28
been bootstrapped companies. So it was also the most logical
48:32
way for us to start. But also we found out that the
48:38
funds, the funds in, in DNI and the way to funds is not always
48:44
an easy route to have and to take.
48:47
And if you are solely dependent on that, yeah, it, it, it would
48:52
take probably in our case more time to achieve the things and
48:57
to work with the type of companies as we are working with
48:59
and working for. So I think as an entrepreneur,
49:03
it's important to find something that fits, that fits you.
49:08
And you know, in an ideal situation, maybe a combination
49:11
of both would would even blast us through through the
49:15
stratosphere even more, but so. Far we have been, really.
49:19
Focusing on our strengths and our strengths are one of our
49:23
strengths is our network and our commercial power.
49:26
So yeah, that makes why we chose that route up until so far.
49:31
Okay, cool, the. Reason I asked is because we met
49:35
Sasha and I met at time start, so I was wondering Yeah, which?
49:41
Is which was. Which is a fundraiser for
49:43
female, female founders. Yeah.
49:47
And that is also something that we so it can go hand in hand,
49:50
right, because we love to see more diversity in in the
49:54
entrepreneurship as well. You still see also that that is
49:58
very much dominated by by certain groups.
50:01
And we love to support these kinds of initiatives on the one
50:04
hand, because we love to inspire other female founders in
50:10
starting up a business, maybe secretly also inspiring them in
50:16
not to rely too much only on the funds, because you can achieve a
50:20
lot as well by yourself. And that's why it's so nice if
50:24
you have other women, in our case, other women that you can
50:28
talk to, that you can drag along to events.
50:32
And that's also how our friendship initially started
50:35
because I was at the event, Danny was speaking and I
50:38
thought, I don't know a lot of female entrepreneurs from my age
50:43
that are, you know, doing something similar also started
50:47
Bootstrap and, you know, build a successful agency.
50:51
So yeah, that's why we we also love to put some time and effort
50:55
in these kinds of initiatives. Let's move to the.
50:59
Future so Daniela in let's say in 10 years from now the House
51:05
of inclusion has proven to be wealthy successful Donald has
51:09
even asked you to visit him in the White House what of what
51:15
does the future then look like and and especially what what is
51:20
possible then what is not possible now so in the.
51:25
Future what? What I really hope is that's
51:29
well for us as a company that we are way more established.
51:32
So that's we are a name that is very well known not only here in
51:37
Europe but also across the oceans and not for us, but
51:42
because that would mean that the topic is something that became
51:46
something that's integrated in business.
51:47
So in 10 years time, what I hope is a no brainer is that we no
51:51
longer have to explain what the value is of DEI, why you have to
51:55
work with it. But that's something that just
51:57
comes natural. Just as using social media as a
52:00
company or making sure you have an HR department, for example,
52:04
it should be something that comes natural.
52:06
So what I hope in 10 years time is that we have become a
52:09
household name in in many people's and companies minds
52:14
that's. Dei is something.
52:15
That's is just simply something that comes with the business.
52:19
Also, when you have a startup, but just a no brainer when we
52:22
talk about a company, that's what I really hope.
52:25
And in terms of revenue and stuff, I think we can leave
52:28
behind because it's it's really not the focus at the moment.
52:31
It's it's it's to become way more way known and DEI mainly
52:36
OK. Sasha, anything to add?
52:38
Yeah, I think only thing to. ADD is one of our mission from
52:42
the start was to impact as many companies as possible.
52:46
There are a lot of companies. So I think until we achieved
52:51
that, we still have a lot to do. And I fully agree with what
52:56
Danny said about it. It should not be an an extra
53:01
thing, but it should be something very normal like
53:04
marketing, like HR that is integrated in, in, in each and
53:08
every company from the moment you go to the Chamber of
53:11
Commerce until you maybe you raise funds or you sell your
53:16
company that it's it's the most normal thing to talk about.
53:20
OK, would. It help to have a sort of
53:22
Champions League of companies, yeah.
53:27
That is a nice, that is a really nice idea to have a Champions
53:30
League. So we, the the examples that we
53:32
shared earlier of course are already I think in our opinion
53:38
playing Champions League or close to Champions League.
53:41
But it would be really great if it becomes, if it becomes
53:44
something that companies are so proud of that they have, they
53:49
have an award or they have something that is really
53:52
recognized on a global level because there are initiatives
53:56
like award shows etcetera. But it's all a lot of times very
53:59
locally focused. If we have something that is a
54:02
global establishment, it really recognizes the companies that
54:06
are really walking the talk that are really doing everything all
54:11
day, every day that is needed. And that would that would, I
54:15
think also really change the perspective of it.
54:18
But yeah, but different things. It would also make it.
54:21
That's I was thinking this through while I asked a
54:25
question. It would also make it sort of
54:30
competition, which is an A, which is a really masculine
54:35
value. So you bring it into the
54:38
masculine domain all of a sudden.
54:41
Yeah, but our women are not. Necessarily or femininity is not
54:45
necessarily not competitive or masculinity only I'm I'm not
54:50
trying to make this a gender thing, but it's sometimes it's
54:52
good to have a little a little competition a little, you know,
54:56
yeah, we can all no, no, no, but it's it's.
54:58
Not that I don't think that women are not competitive.
55:01
I know a lot of women who are very competitive and that's, and
55:06
you're talking to two of them. Yeah.
55:07
Yeah, So but. But anyway.
55:11
You get, you get. Get my point.
55:14
I'm I'm going to write it down. I do.
55:16
Like the idea of DNI Champions League?
55:19
Yeah, not for thought. OK.
55:23
So besides. Suggesting the D.
55:25
NIDEI Champions League What else can men do to contribute to more
55:31
diversity, equity and inclusion? Awesome question.
55:36
It's, I think men, but also women and then especially white
55:43
men and women can do a lot. The most important thing to do
55:47
is speak up when you see something that's happening.
55:50
And that's also the most important one is don't leave it
55:53
to people that feel that they are misjudged or discriminated
55:58
to speak up, but do it for them because it makes it much easier
56:02
than to to create a platform. So most important thing that you
56:06
can do is speak up and say it when you see something that
56:10
isn't right or when you think that's something can change.
56:13
And don't be afraid to take up space doing that as well.
56:16
We hear a lot of men especially to say, yeah, but you know, I'm
56:19
a man, so should I be doing this?
56:20
Shouldn't the people who be doing this that are affected?
56:23
But that's not the case. Speak up and create a platform
56:27
when you can. So that's definitely the most
56:30
important thing. And respond to things online
56:33
that you see, like comment, share whenever you can.
56:37
Don't only let women post stuff around International Women's Day
56:41
or when there's something horrible news happening.
56:44
Yeah, also do it yourself. Yeah, that's that's also what.
56:47
I would say so we, you know, we, we'd love to call out the ally
56:51
in everyone because everybody can be an ally for other
56:55
underrepresented people. So if you are not queer, you can
57:00
still go to a queer party and be an ally there and learn also
57:05
from other communities because that's how you can help them in
57:10
listening, in seeing and experiencing what they
57:14
experience. And sometimes use your
57:17
privileges more for goods. So we are all privileged in a
57:20
different way. The privileges are not shared
57:22
equally, but everybody can do so much more with everything that
57:26
was already given to you. So that is, I think, always a
57:30
call to action if people want to do more.
57:33
It's just that reflect on what what, what do you already have
57:37
and also on what do you don't know?
57:39
And make sure that you know more about those people and those
57:42
communities. Yeah, also by by joining.
57:46
Those communities you can do also maybe to add.
57:48
Is people that want to learn. We organize an event twice a
57:52
year and there's one coming up on June 3rd.
57:55
It's called the Culture Codes. And during the culture code we
57:58
really talk about this. So how can you create a
58:01
platform? How do you make a culture?
58:03
At last, this is not just for people in HR or business
58:06
leaders, It's for everyone to learn.
58:07
So definitely also visit the culture code.
58:10
We'll we'll put that in the show notes.
58:12
And in the in the LinkedIn post, yeah, so we recommended.
58:16
Tim Hoffman's coming with a great ally, so lots to learn
58:21
from him at least, and our other speakers as well.
58:24
OK, sounds like. A great place to close, Daniella
58:27
Sescha, if people want to learn more about you and about House
58:32
of Inclusion, where would you like to send them?
58:37
Oh. First of all.
58:39
Definitely visit our websites, www.house-of-inclusion.com.
58:46
We talk a lot on LinkedIn on our House of Inclusion page, but
58:49
also our private pages where we share a lot of insights as well.
58:54
So make sure to follow us there. And whoever wants to know more,
58:58
always make sure to send us a message also to share your
59:01
experiences. So we're very open for
59:04
questions, coffees or DMS. So make sure to do that.
59:08
Is there anything I'm forgetting?
59:09
SUS no, I think. You, you hit at least the most
59:14
important platforms, but that people can reach out to us.
59:18
And also if you just have a question and you don't know if
59:21
you can actually work with us on the long term, but you just want
59:25
to ask something, yeah, please ask it to us instead of holding
59:30
it within yourself and and not solving it.
59:34
So feel free to reach out. We are very friendly and very
59:37
nice to talk to. So happy to talk about this all
59:40
the time and if you want to follow us on a more.
59:43
Unhinged basis you can also follow our Instagrams, which is
59:45
less work related. So if you want to learn even
59:47
more, you can also find definitely go to LinkedIn first
59:51
when it's work related. Sasha.
59:54
Martina, Daniela. Yescote, thank you very much for
59:57
this awesome conversation. Really enjoyed it.
1:00:00
Listeners, thank you very much for listening, and until the
1:00:04
next episode, keep being awesome.
1:00:11
Well, that's a wrap for. Episode 100 of Women Disrupting
1:00:15
Tech about how we can build DEI champions in tech and beyond
1:00:20
with Sasha, Martina and Danielle escort from House of Inclusion.
1:00:24
Danielle, Sasha, and I hope that you've enjoyed our conversation
1:00:28
as much as we did. And if you'd like to learn more
1:00:31
about or connect with Danielle, Sasha and Housing for Inclusion,
1:00:36
please check out the links in the show notes.
1:00:39
As usual, you can find to show notes at Women Disrupting Tech
1:00:42
dot blog. When you enjoyed listening to
1:00:45
this episode, please follow the podcast on Spotify, Apple,
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1:00:57
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1:01:00
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1:01:05
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1:01:12
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1:01:15
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1:01:19
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1:01:22
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1:01:26
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1:01:34
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1:01:38
Simply search for my name and you'll find me.
1:01:41
With that, I wish you a wonderful day.
1:01:43
I hope to see you in episode one O 1 and until then, keep being
1:01:48
awesome.