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FBI: MOVIE STAR ALEC BALDWIN DID PULL TRIGGER · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Are the walls closing in
0:15
Speaker 1: for movie star Alec Baldwin? Is his gun lie as
0:20
Speaker 1: some portray it falling apart? Remember when the shooting occurred
0:29
Speaker 1: on the set of Rust, he insisted he never pulled
0:33
Speaker 1: the trigger. Well, the FBI says something entirely different. I mean,
0:39
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:41
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM one eleven.
0:45
Speaker 1: A brand new FBI report has come out, a ballistics analysis.
0:50
Speaker 1: What does it say and what does it mean? First
0:52
Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to this tonight and FBI
0:55
Speaker 1: analysis revealing new details about the investigation into the deadly
0:59
Speaker 1: shoot on the set of the movie Rust. After testing
1:02
Speaker 1: the firearm, the FBI concluding the gun quote could not
1:06
Speaker 1: be made to fire without a pull of the trigger.
1:09
Speaker 1: Baldwin adamant, he never pulled the trigger. Well, the trigger
1:12
Speaker 1: wasn't pull I didn't pull the trigger, So you never
1:14
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger? No, no, no, no no. I would
1:16
Speaker 1: never point a gun anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never.
1:19
Speaker 1: But tonight, the FBI contradicting that account, authorities contending testing
1:23
Speaker 1: showing the trigger had to have been pulled. You were
1:26
Speaker 1: hearing our friend Will Carr at ABC, and you heard
1:30
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin speaking there. And that is precisely why we
1:33
Speaker 1: have the Fifth Amendment, the right to remain silent. Now,
1:39
Speaker 1: the Constitution protects us all, including Alec Baldwin, from undue
1:44
Speaker 1: forced by police or the state to make you utter
1:48
Speaker 1: a statement. It does not protect you from mouthing off
1:53
Speaker 1: to ABC. Now take a listen now to our friends
1:58
Speaker 1: at GMA. This has been a question now for months.
2:02
Speaker 1: Was the trigger pulled in this fatal shooting? While Baldwin
2:06
Speaker 1: says no, FBI says yes. This morning, a new FBI
2:10
Speaker 1: analysis contradicting Alec Baldwin's account of the deadly shooting of
2:14
Speaker 1: cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the set of the movie rusted
2:17
Speaker 1: one of the FBI's key findings after testing the firearm,
2:20
Speaker 1: the FBI concluding in a new report the gun quote
2:23
Speaker 1: could not be made to fire without a pull of
2:26
Speaker 1: the trigger. Two things that stand out in these multiple
2:28
Speaker 1: FBI reports really Number one, they basically conclude that they
2:34
Speaker 1: contradict really this report that Baldwin's claimed that he did
2:37
Speaker 1: not pull the trigger of the gun that killed Helena Hutchins.
2:41
Speaker 1: Number two, the FBI did some fingerprint in DNA analysis
2:45
Speaker 1: and tests on the gun, the cases, the ammunition box,
2:48
Speaker 1: and basically it revealed that there were no surprise mystery individuals,
2:53
Speaker 1: meaning there was no evidence that anyone other than those
2:56
Speaker 1: directly involved tampered with the gun or ammunition. And that's important.
3:01
Speaker 1: You're also hearing our friends at Fox News. So what
3:03
Speaker 1: does it all mean? You know, when you get a report,
3:07
Speaker 1: a scientific report from the crime lab, whether it's about DNA,
3:12
Speaker 1: fiber evidence, blood evidence, or ballistics evidence, they're really hard
3:17
Speaker 1: to read. Like I did with medical examiners when they
3:22
Speaker 1: would see my beat up hooda coming their way, they'd
3:25
Speaker 1: hide under the table because they need they were in
3:27
Speaker 1: for a grilling, not in an angry or hostile way,
3:31
Speaker 1: but to understand what each in every line means. It's
3:35
Speaker 1: literally a scientific report. The same thing goes for ballistics
3:40
Speaker 1: with me an all star panel. To make sense of
3:42
Speaker 1: what we know right now? And what does this FBI
3:45
Speaker 1: report mean for a movie star? Alec Baldwin to Dave
3:49
Speaker 1: Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what do you
3:52
Speaker 1: know about the report? What we know is that the
3:56
Speaker 1: FBI did intense investigation into this gun, Nancy. They test
4:03
Speaker 1: fired it. The FBI worked through everything they could with
4:07
Speaker 1: this gun and determined that the only way this gun
4:12
Speaker 1: would be fired could be fired was if the trigger
4:16
Speaker 1: was pulled. I'm just soaking in everything you said because
4:19
Speaker 1: of what we got here, justice got Morgan, Professor forensics,
4:23
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.
4:27
Speaker 1: Starve a brand new hit series on iHeart called Body
4:32
Speaker 1: Backs that j Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, I hear everything
4:36
Speaker 1: that Dave Matt just said. I know that he's correct,
4:40
Speaker 1: but I am a JD basically a trial lawyer. Break
4:45
Speaker 1: it down for me and try not to use any
4:48
Speaker 1: medical terms or any Latin phrases. Okay, I'll don descending laughter, Okay,
4:56
Speaker 1: all right, okay, worried, Well in this particular case, don't
5:02
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Don't like it when you
5:04
Speaker 1: have that condescending weapon. Okay, go ahead, Yeah, all right, Okay.
5:08
Speaker 1: The weapon was collected from the scene in New Mexico,
5:13
Speaker 1: and it was not tested by the state crime lab
5:18
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. It was sent to Quantico. Nancy, you
5:21
Speaker 1: know what that just gives me a chill down my
5:22
Speaker 1: spinal here Quantico, because that's where business goes down. Let
5:26
Speaker 1: me tell you what kind of a weapon is it,
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Speaker 1: just Scott, Well, it's a forty five caliber revolver and
5:32
Speaker 1: it's a single action revolver. And if folks at home,
5:36
Speaker 1: we'll just think about Western's all right, this was a
5:39
Speaker 1: Western they were filming, so you're going to use weapons
5:42
Speaker 1: that marry up to that. Now, this is what's referred
5:45
Speaker 1: to as a reproduction weapon, but it's still functional and
5:50
Speaker 1: this weapon fired forty five caliber ammunition. It's a cult
5:55
Speaker 1: long I believe that, if memory serves me correctly. And
5:58
Speaker 1: so this weapon was actually sent to Quantico for their
6:01
Speaker 1: ballistics people to take a look at. And when you
6:04
Speaker 1: get into the ballistics lab, which is absolutely fascinating in
6:08
Speaker 1: our world and forensics, there's only one thing I love
6:11
Speaker 1: more than going to the morgue Jackie to talk to
6:15
Speaker 1: the medical examiner, and that's the ballistics division of the
6:19
Speaker 1: crime lab. It's you're right, Jesso, it is. It's fascinating.
6:24
Speaker 1: And the ones I've been in walls and walls of
6:26
Speaker 1: weapons and it's it's pretty incredible. They have a huge database,
6:29
Speaker 1: but for the specific testing for this weapon. If you
6:34
Speaker 1: think about a big what's called external hammer, which is
6:38
Speaker 1: this large hammer on the back, you have to actually
6:41
Speaker 1: actuate the hammer. That means pull it back. In this
6:44
Speaker 1: particular weapon, I believe has three separate settings. You have
6:48
Speaker 1: what's called quartercock, which means just slightly back. Right. For
6:52
Speaker 1: those of people that don't know what the hammer is, Yeah,
6:55
Speaker 1: did you describe that place? Yeah, it's it's actually functioned.
6:59
Speaker 1: It is use you can actuate it by using your thumb.
7:02
Speaker 1: You mean, it's the thing on top of the gun.
7:05
Speaker 1: It is. And so when you pull the trigger, the
7:08
Speaker 1: hammer goes forward, all right, and it strikes It strikes
7:11
Speaker 1: the pen and that actually initiates the blast of the weapon.
7:16
Speaker 1: That's this process has to go on. And so when
7:18
Speaker 1: they're testing this, so when you pull the trigger, you
7:21
Speaker 1: bring down the hammer, you do, but the weapon has
7:23
Speaker 1: to be cocked first. And do you mean pull the
7:27
Speaker 1: hammer back? It has to be pulled back and not
7:30
Speaker 1: just simply you can't just pull the trigger with this weapon.
7:34
Speaker 1: It's a single action, which means you have to there's
7:37
Speaker 1: a couple of moves. You have to pull back the
7:39
Speaker 1: hammer specifically and then pull a trigger. So you've got
7:44
Speaker 1: yeah all the way. Well, I'm writing this down. I
7:47
Speaker 1: heard Del Carson, who high profile lawyer out of Jackson
7:51
Speaker 1: will also former FED with the FBI. We also have
7:55
Speaker 1: Steve Wolf weapons safety for film expert. You producing a
8:01
Speaker 1: TV and film. We're all weighing in on this. Me
8:05
Speaker 1: last of all, since I'm the least experienced compared to
8:08
Speaker 1: you guys. But I heard Del Carson jump in and
8:10
Speaker 1: he's right, Joe Scott, you have to pull the hammer
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Speaker 1: back all the way on this weapon. Go ahead. Yeah.
8:17
Speaker 1: So you know, when you begin to think about this
8:20
Speaker 1: from just a basic mechanics standpoint, it requires multiple actions.
8:26
Speaker 1: It's not just a matter of drawing the weapon, which
8:28
Speaker 1: he used what's called a cross draw, where the weapon
8:31
Speaker 1: is actually holstered on his left side, he's right handed,
8:34
Speaker 1: reaches across his body, pulls it out. So in this
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Speaker 1: action he's pulling it out and apparently cocking the hammer
8:40
Speaker 1: at the same time. That means pulling it all the
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Speaker 1: way back and then he has to pull the trigger.
8:46
Speaker 1: And when they did the testing Nanswer at Quantico, one
8:50
Speaker 1: of the things that they found is that they do
8:52
Speaker 1: what's called a drop test, where if you cock it
8:54
Speaker 1: all the way back and you drop the weapon. A
8:58
Speaker 1: weapon doesn't fire on its own, you have to pull
9:00
Speaker 1: the trigger, and so there's no They found that there
9:03
Speaker 1: was no defect in the weapon, is what it comes
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Speaker 1: down to. I'm now going to go to Steve Wolf,
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Speaker 1: weapons Safety for Film expert thirty years producing TV and film.
9:13
Speaker 1: He is the CEO of Teamwildfire dot com. Steve Wolf,
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Speaker 1: I imagine this FBI report has shaken the prop community
9:25
Speaker 1: to its core with the reality of what can go
9:30
Speaker 1: wrong on a set. Jump in Steve, we need you now. Okay, Well,
9:34
Speaker 1: first of all, nobody was shaken to the core. I
9:36
Speaker 1: was to think of an innocent mother, wife, just standing
9:40
Speaker 1: there doing her job get shot by what should have
9:43
Speaker 1: been a prop gun on a set. Right. You know,
9:46
Speaker 1: when I come to the studio every day, I don't
9:47
Speaker 1: think Jack is going to pull a gun. I mean,
9:49
Speaker 1: I hope. Yeah. So here she is getting ready that
9:51
Speaker 1: afternoon to go home to her husband and her child,
9:54
Speaker 1: and bam, she's lying on the floor bleeding out. So
9:57
Speaker 1: that was pretty disturbing to me. Well, it is disturbing,
10:00
Speaker 1: but the disturbing actions were not as a result of
10:03
Speaker 1: the FBI report. The FBI report really confirmed that it
10:07
Speaker 1: was a real gun, and it was a working gun
10:09
Speaker 1: in working condition, and that the gun did not malfunction.
10:13
Speaker 1: The malfunction, you know, was the loose nut behind the grip,
10:17
Speaker 1: mister Baldwin um. And you know, you don't point guns
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Speaker 1: at people unless you want to hurt them, and you
10:24
Speaker 1: don't put live ammo in guns. You don't hire an
10:27
Speaker 1: armorer to make sure that your gun is safe and
10:29
Speaker 1: then send them away to go do something else while
10:31
Speaker 1: you play with the guns. This is this is what happened,
10:34
Speaker 1: and it's you know, it was not the fault of
10:37
Speaker 1: the gun. One thing that's been overlooked though in the
10:41
Speaker 1: in discussing the way this single action gun works, that
10:45
Speaker 1: nobody has mentioned is that the traditional way to fire
10:50
Speaker 1: a single action revolver is that you cock the hammer
10:54
Speaker 1: with your thumb and then you press the trigger with
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Speaker 1: your forefinger. However, it does not have to be done
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Speaker 1: in that order, and this is what I think led
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Speaker 1: to this accident. You can press the trigger and then
11:08
Speaker 1: pull the hammer back and release it, and the gun
11:10
Speaker 1: will also fire if you were continuing to maintain pressure
11:15
Speaker 1: on the trigger. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Guys with
11:34
Speaker 1: me in addition to doctor Angela, Arnold just got Morgan
11:37
Speaker 1: Dale Carson with us a weapon safety expert film expert
11:43
Speaker 1: at Team wildfire dot com, Steve, Would you mind saying
11:47
Speaker 1: that last part absolutely one more time, you said, and
11:51
Speaker 1: say it very slowly For gun dummies like myself, you said,
11:55
Speaker 1: the traditional way to shoot a weapon like a forty
11:58
Speaker 1: five calib or single action called long is to cut
12:02
Speaker 1: the hammer, pull the hammer back on top with your thumb,
12:06
Speaker 1: and then fire, I believe you said with your forefinger
12:09
Speaker 1: or your index finger. Traditionally, first you would pull the
12:12
Speaker 1: hammer back and then you would press the trigger. The
12:15
Speaker 1: gun would discharge as it is designed to do. Correct. However,
12:20
Speaker 1: if in the course of grasping the gun you are
12:23
Speaker 1: applying pressure to the trigger and you maintain that pressure
12:27
Speaker 1: on the trigger and simultaneously pull the hammer back and
12:32
Speaker 1: then release it, the gun will fire because the sear
12:36
Speaker 1: will not engage and hold the hammer back if your
12:39
Speaker 1: finger is on the trigger. So, as opposed to the
12:42
Speaker 1: traditional way of firing, you can also simultaneously pull the
12:47
Speaker 1: trigger and pull back the hammer at the same time.
12:51
Speaker 1: And that is good or bad. It's neither good or bad,
12:54
Speaker 1: but it would explain how the gun could fire without
12:57
Speaker 1: mister Baldwin having been aware of intentionally pressing the trigger. Okay,
13:03
Speaker 1: pressing the trigger he means I cocked the gun and
13:05
Speaker 1: then I pressed the trigger or I didn't press the trigger.
13:08
Speaker 1: But if he was maintaining continuous pressure on the trigger
13:12
Speaker 1: by the way he held the gun and then he
13:14
Speaker 1: pulled the hammer back and released it, the gun would
13:18
Speaker 1: discharge because the trigger was continuously depressed. I got it.
13:22
Speaker 1: I got it that time. Del Carson with me, high
13:24
Speaker 1: profile lawyer out of Jackson, full former fed with the
13:28
Speaker 1: FBI as an Asian and author of Arrest Proof Yourselfies
13:31
Speaker 1: at del Carson Law dot com. Dale, You know, in
13:35
Speaker 1: the distric Attorney's office where prosecuted for over a decade.
13:41
Speaker 1: We had to take continual gun practice multiple times a
13:46
Speaker 1: year because assistant Day's or a licensed to carry gun
13:52
Speaker 1: and affect arrests. I however, did not carry a gun
13:57
Speaker 1: for any of those years, being a gun violence victim
14:00
Speaker 1: that my investigator did. Anyway, during all that time, Dell Carson,
14:05
Speaker 1: I never really voud practice at the range a lot.
14:10
Speaker 1: I never really understood the intricacies that we're talking about
14:13
Speaker 1: today unless it was part of a case I was prosecuting.
14:18
Speaker 1: I've never had this specific issue come up where you know,
14:22
Speaker 1: the trigger person, the protugger person says, yes, I had
14:25
Speaker 1: the gun in my hand at the time of the
14:26
Speaker 1: fatal shooting, but I didn't pull the trigger. Okay. That
14:29
Speaker 1: reminds me who was that Jackie sending? Was it Lindsay
14:32
Speaker 1: Lohan that said, yes, that's cocaine in the pocket, but
14:35
Speaker 1: those weren't my pants I had on. Okay, so how
14:38
Speaker 1: do you say that, Yes, I had the gun in
14:40
Speaker 1: my hand, but I didn't pull the trigger. Was it
14:42
Speaker 1: Lindsay Lohan? Poor thing? Now she's all grown up and
14:44
Speaker 1: happy and leading a normal life, and I had to
14:46
Speaker 1: go bring up the cocaine and her pants. So, Dell Carson,
14:49
Speaker 1: what do you make of it? Well, your expert is
14:51
Speaker 1: absolutely right. Those guns are unusual today because when you
14:57
Speaker 1: pull press the trigger and it's back. Yes, you do
15:01
Speaker 1: what the cowboys always did, which was fanning the pistol. Okay, say, wait,
15:05
Speaker 1: there you go. There you go with a gun phrase.
15:08
Speaker 1: What's fanning the pistol? What you're waving it around like
15:11
Speaker 1: a fan? No, I'm sorry, you'll hold it in your
15:14
Speaker 1: hand and with your other hand, your opposite hand, you
15:18
Speaker 1: strike the hammer all the way back and let it go.
15:20
Speaker 1: Oh yeah like that? Okay, yeah too, Fanny, and I
15:25
Speaker 1: will simply tell you that Baldwin's problem is that he
15:29
Speaker 1: runs his mouth too much. As you mentioned early on
15:32
Speaker 1: in the show, you can't be talking to the press
15:36
Speaker 1: well speaking of in sessant talking. Take a listen to
15:41
Speaker 1: feel lipoff at GMA. Baldwin adamant he never pulled the trigger. Well,
15:46
Speaker 1: the trigger wasn't put I didn't pull the trigger, So
15:48
Speaker 1: you never pulled the trigger. No, no, no, no no.
15:51
Speaker 1: I would never point a gun to anyone and pull
15:52
Speaker 1: a trigger at them. Never. But this morning the FBI,
15:55
Speaker 1: contending they're testing shows the trigger must have been pulled,
15:59
Speaker 1: authority saying, based on all available information, including the absence
16:03
Speaker 1: of obvious intent to cause harm or death, the manner
16:06
Speaker 1: of death is best classified as accident. Your gun experts
16:09
Speaker 1: will basically tell you and Alec Baldwin is not a
16:13
Speaker 1: stranger to guns. You've done a lot of movies with
16:15
Speaker 1: guns in them. That even though let's said the armorer
16:18
Speaker 1: and I hand you the weapon, I tell you this
16:19
Speaker 1: is a cold gun. It's not loaded. It's your responsibility.
16:24
Speaker 1: Most experts say that you check the gun, you should
16:28
Speaker 1: not point it at someone, let alone keeping your finger
16:31
Speaker 1: on the trigger when it's not necessary. This was rehearsal, remember,
16:35
Speaker 1: so all those things can add up to potential liability
16:40
Speaker 1: on the part of the actor, but again it's going
16:42
Speaker 1: to be up to the day to determine those factors.
16:45
Speaker 1: As well as this new FBI report that claims that
16:48
Speaker 1: the gun could not have quote accidentally misfired if you will,
16:52
Speaker 1: that you had to pull the trigger for basically the
16:57
Speaker 1: trigger to hit the bullet and the bullet to fire.
16:59
Speaker 1: You're here also William Lane Janessee at Fox News talking
17:04
Speaker 1: about the intricacies of the gun and what would be
17:10
Speaker 1: required to pull the trigger. You're also hearing Alec Baldwin
17:14
Speaker 1: saying I didn't pull the trigger. This is what he
17:18
Speaker 1: says happens Take Lost our Friends at GMA in December,
17:22
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin describing the moment of that fatal accident. She's
17:25
Speaker 1: guiding me through how she wants me to hold the
17:28
Speaker 1: gun for this angle, and I draw the gun out
17:30
Speaker 1: and I find a mark. So I take the gun
17:32
Speaker 1: and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going
17:34
Speaker 1: to pull the trigger. I said, do you see that
17:36
Speaker 1: she was. We'll just cheat it down and tilt it
17:37
Speaker 1: down a little bit like that, and I let me
17:39
Speaker 1: go with the hammer of the gun, and the gun
17:40
Speaker 1: goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun,
17:43
Speaker 1: the gun goes off. Alec Baldwin talks and asks for
17:48
Speaker 1: a living, maybe talking too much, you know, to doctor
17:52
Speaker 1: Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
17:55
Speaker 1: You can find her at Angela Arnold MD dot com,
17:59
Speaker 1: Doctor Angie. You heard earlier Steve Wolf, the weapons safety
18:05
Speaker 1: for film expert at Team wildfire dot com. He said
18:11
Speaker 1: that there was no gun malfunction, that the shaker hydro
18:17
Speaker 1: been pulled, which is an intentional act unless you're acting
18:22
Speaker 1: really recklessly or negligently. I mean, it would be a
18:27
Speaker 1: cold day in h E double l before I pointed
18:32
Speaker 1: a weapon at anyone, even if I thought all the
18:36
Speaker 1: chambers were empty. Oh, I agree with you, Nancy. And
18:39
Speaker 1: you're taught that if anyone's ever gone to a gun range,
18:43
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I imagine Alec Baldwin has been taught
18:46
Speaker 1: how to deal with a gun. And it's it's very
18:49
Speaker 1: reckless behavior that he that he pulled the trigger and
18:53
Speaker 1: shot this girl, or what Steve Wolfe said, simultaneously had
18:57
Speaker 1: the hammer down and pulled the trigger at the same time. Yeah,
19:00
Speaker 1: one of those teams ahead. I'm sorry. What I was
19:02
Speaker 1: going to say is, Nancy, do you know what the
19:04
Speaker 1: number one the most common motive for telling a lie
19:08
Speaker 1: is to avoid punishment. I think we all ought to
19:12
Speaker 1: think about that and just let it sink in. The
19:15
Speaker 1: number one motive for telling a lie is to avoid punishment.
19:19
Speaker 1: How do you know that, I've read about it. It's punishment, fear, punishment,
19:23
Speaker 1: to avoid punishment. Interesting, doctor Angie, very interesting and your experience,
19:30
Speaker 1: you know, doctor Angela Arnold. Let me give you a
19:33
Speaker 1: good example. People, court watchers, legal egals believed that orenthal
19:40
Speaker 1: James Simpson O J. Simpson told the same lie so
19:43
Speaker 1: many times that he actually started believing it. I've never
19:48
Speaker 1: accepted that theory. I think, you know inside what really happened.
19:54
Speaker 1: Is there a chance that See replays this in his mind?
19:58
Speaker 1: Balin actually thinks he didn't pullets. I think there's a
20:01
Speaker 1: slight chance of that. None of us are ever going
20:04
Speaker 1: to know, because he's not going to come forward with
20:07
Speaker 1: that information. Just like O. J. Simpson would never come
20:09
Speaker 1: forward with that information. I'll tell you another instance when
20:12
Speaker 1: this happens, Nancy, When when people have affairs and they
20:18
Speaker 1: never tell the truth. Are there are lots of instances
20:23
Speaker 1: when people lie and lie and lie. They know what
20:27
Speaker 1: the truth is underneath all of us, and it looks
20:30
Speaker 1: like they believe it. Certainly looks like they believe that lie.
20:35
Speaker 1: But I agree with you, Nancy. I don't think that
20:37
Speaker 1: there's any way, unless they're psychotic, that they start to
20:42
Speaker 1: actually believe that what they're saying is truth. I think
20:46
Speaker 1: sometimes that they think in their minds they've covered all
20:49
Speaker 1: their bases, and they get actually indignant that you are
20:53
Speaker 1: not going them along with their big fat lie. Or
20:56
Speaker 1: in his mind he may think, well, I didn't mean
20:59
Speaker 1: to pull the trigger. I never intended to pull the trigger.
21:02
Speaker 1: Though surely I didn't pull the trigger. Yeah, I mean,
21:05
Speaker 1: but the FBI is something is saying something entirely different. Well,
21:10
Speaker 1: this is how it all started. Take a listen to
21:14
Speaker 1: the nine one one call from our friends at GMA.
21:18
Speaker 1: People accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop done.
21:23
Speaker 1: We need healthy media. The Santa Fe County District attorneys
21:26
Speaker 1: saying nothing is off the table. There's no evidence that
21:29
Speaker 1: this was intentional. This was clearly an accident, but perhaps
21:36
Speaker 1: a criminal accident. Just because something is an accident doesn't
21:39
Speaker 1: mean that a criminal act didn't occur to Dale. Carson,
21:43
Speaker 1: high profile while you're out of jacksonal in former fed
21:45
Speaker 1: with the FBI. Dale, That's why we have statutes such
21:48
Speaker 1: as vehicular homicide, where you have a crash, it didn't
21:53
Speaker 1: mean to have a crash, but you kill somebody. That's
21:56
Speaker 1: vehicular homicide. I think this is. And there's also, however,
22:01
Speaker 1: that's negligent homicide, which is a more of a voluntary manslaughter.
22:05
Speaker 1: But there's also abandoned malignant heart, which means, for instance,
22:10
Speaker 1: this is the example I would give a Jurydale, I
22:12
Speaker 1: would say against him. Yes, for instance, you drive your
22:18
Speaker 1: car at ninety mph into a street fair, you don't
22:23
Speaker 1: even know anybody you mow down, but you have your
22:28
Speaker 1: heart is abandoned toward the suffering or the risk of
22:31
Speaker 1: injury up to other people. And pointing a gun at someone,
22:36
Speaker 1: a real gun with real bullets in it is an
22:39
Speaker 1: abandoned malignant heart. That is a murder charge right there. Well,
22:43
Speaker 1: I don't intend to defend Alex Baldwin, but you're expert.
22:47
Speaker 1: Wolf has got it. But let me explain it just
22:50
Speaker 1: a little bit more. When you pick up a handgun
22:53
Speaker 1: and you pull the hammer back, your hand naturally presses
22:58
Speaker 1: the trigger. That's called negligence. And when that hand presses
23:01
Speaker 1: the trigger just unintentionally, the hammer comes back and it
23:06
Speaker 1: goes forward and fires. And that's why so many children
23:10
Speaker 1: are killed with these handguns that have a semi automatic
23:13
Speaker 1: hand guns that have a very light three pound trigger pull.
23:17
Speaker 1: They can grab that gun and their hands naturally fit
23:20
Speaker 1: around it and fire. But these guns have to be
23:23
Speaker 1: coughed so they're safer. And if you know anything about guns,
23:27
Speaker 1: you never I carried the guns since nineteen seventy two
23:31
Speaker 1: every day, and they're dangerous. They will hurt the people
23:35
Speaker 1: you care about if you're not really gun contract you know.
23:38
Speaker 1: Steve Wolfe joining me from Team wildfire dot com. He's
23:43
Speaker 1: a weapons safety for film expert. Steve. For those that
23:48
Speaker 1: don't know what a trigger pull is, what is it? Simply? Well,
23:52
Speaker 1: first of all, that's the widely used and incorrect term
23:56
Speaker 1: for activating the trigger. Triggers are actually pressed, not hold,
24:01
Speaker 1: you press the trigger. But what it means is to
24:06
Speaker 1: apply pressure to the trigger to the degree that the
24:10
Speaker 1: trigger moves and activates the linkages inside the gun that
24:14
Speaker 1: release the sear and allow the hammer to fall. And
24:17
Speaker 1: we say three pounds trigger pole, what does that main
24:20
Speaker 1: versus It's just like when you press on a doorbell
24:22
Speaker 1: and then the doorbell rings. You know, if you leaned
24:25
Speaker 1: against the doorbell and it rings, you then say, oh,
24:28
Speaker 1: I didn't press the doorbell. You know, you still caused
24:30
Speaker 1: it to be pressed, whether you intended to or not.
24:32
Speaker 1: In the doorbell ring. That's a really good comparison as
24:35
Speaker 1: far as the weight of a trigger pole. If you
24:38
Speaker 1: say I scot ten pound trigger pole, that means it
24:41
Speaker 1: takes ten pounds of effort. It's the only way I
24:44
Speaker 1: can explain it versus three pounds or one pound suggar pole.
24:47
Speaker 1: That's exactly correct. Okay, And I know you're saying that's
24:50
Speaker 1: not the correct verbiage, but I think it's a familiar
24:55
Speaker 1: vernacular to say the weight of the trigger pole. Because
24:58
Speaker 1: you've got a ten pound tuggar pull, it's a lot
25:01
Speaker 1: harder to pull that trigger, which would indicate more a
25:06
Speaker 1: forethought because you have to really pull. Guys, you're hearing
25:10
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin said, I didn't pull the trigger. Well, that
25:13
Speaker 1: is not what the FBI is saying. Take a listen
25:17
Speaker 1: our friends at gm an FBI lab report concluding that
25:20
Speaker 1: of the four people they tested, the only prints that
25:23
Speaker 1: were found on the ammunition box were from two of
25:26
Speaker 1: rust armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reid's fingers. Back in April, authorities
25:30
Speaker 1: released this video of Baldwin being questioned and the moment
25:33
Speaker 1: he has told that Hutchins was dead and you have
25:36
Speaker 1: some very unfortune is to tell you she didn't need it.
25:43
Speaker 1: The bottom line right now is the medical examiner his
25:45
Speaker 1: calling Hudgens death an accident. The question now is will
25:50
Speaker 1: the FBI reports lead to maybe criminal charges against Baldwin.
25:54
Speaker 1: It could be something like negligence or even involuntary manslaughter.
25:58
Speaker 1: That will now be up to the Santa Fe District Attorney.
26:00
Speaker 1: In addition toepfers at GMA. You just heard William Launchingness
26:04
Speaker 1: at Fox News speaking, So I'm trying to figure out
26:08
Speaker 1: Dave mac joining me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Dave.
26:14
Speaker 1: The FBI has concluded that with the hammer at a
26:18
Speaker 1: full cock position, the revolver could not fire without a
26:22
Speaker 1: pull of the trigger. I can't put it any more
26:26
Speaker 1: simply than that. Now Baldwin's team is saying that is
26:31
Speaker 1: a misstatement. But what will it take for the DA
26:36
Speaker 1: to get off the dime and make some kind of
26:39
Speaker 1: a resolution in this case, either drop it or move forward?
26:44
Speaker 1: Right now, the DA is waiting on a couple more reports. Really,
26:48
Speaker 1: what you got a crime lab report for Kauanica. What's
26:52
Speaker 1: he waiting on? My understanding, the DA is waiting for
26:55
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's department to come back with their full report.
26:58
Speaker 1: They've had three reports so far, and I think they're
27:00
Speaker 1: waiting for one more report, and that will kind of
27:04
Speaker 1: put a bow on it. They've already determined that the
27:06
Speaker 1: shooting was accidental, but determining what if any crime occurred
27:10
Speaker 1: is what they're trying to determine, and that should be
27:13
Speaker 1: done fairly quickly, Nancy, Like what they're going to present
27:16
Speaker 1: to the grand jury if anything. Well, you've heard Alec
27:20
Speaker 1: Baldwin speaking out and speaking out and speaking out, and
27:24
Speaker 1: remember this is not under police questioning, investigatory questioning at all.
27:29
Speaker 1: He's speaking of his own volition now here he is
27:32
Speaker 1: at the Chris Cuomo Project. What is he saying, every
27:35
Speaker 1: single person on the set of the film knows what happened.
27:38
Speaker 1: And the people that are talking loudest about what happened
27:41
Speaker 1: or speculating about what happened, we're not on the set
27:43
Speaker 1: of the film. The La Times, the Hollywood reporter, they
27:46
Speaker 1: talk on and on and on about what if this
27:48
Speaker 1: and if that, and have dined out on this. And
27:54
Speaker 1: the thing that they have in common is nobody was there,
27:57
Speaker 1: and everybody who was there they know exactly what happened.
28:00
Speaker 1: And a big Zachary who's to blame? Blah blah blah,
28:02
Speaker 1: well speaking of talk on and on and on. Who Okay,
28:09
Speaker 1: that's Alec Baldwin speaking out again. But take a listen now.
28:15
Speaker 1: He's saying, no one on the set is speaking out,
28:18
Speaker 1: and it saw the Hollywood reporter in the La Times
28:21
Speaker 1: and the media who were not obviously on the set.
28:24
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Tina patel Akkl, the armorer on
28:28
Speaker 1: the set of the Ill Fated Rust movie, is speaking
28:31
Speaker 1: out after a court fining by actor Alec Baldwin. In
28:34
Speaker 1: his claim, Baldwin says Hutchins told him to quote cock.
28:37
Speaker 1: The gun rest armorer Hannah Tierres responded saying she was
28:41
Speaker 1: never called to inspect a gun as was protocol. She
28:44
Speaker 1: issued a statement saying, quote, mister Baldwin knew that he
28:47
Speaker 1: could never point a firearm at crew members under any
28:49
Speaker 1: circumstances and had a duty of safety to his fellow
28:52
Speaker 1: crew members. Yet he did point the gun at Helena
28:55
Speaker 1: before the fatal incident, against all rules and common sense.
28:58
Speaker 1: To see wolf running us. He is the weapon's safety.
29:02
Speaker 1: For film expert Steve, it sounds like a lot of
29:05
Speaker 1: fingerpoint to me. Bobin saying I didn't pull the trigger.
29:08
Speaker 1: The armorer who is in charge of weapons on a
29:12
Speaker 1: set is saying he knew better. I find it really
29:15
Speaker 1: hard to believe that Helena Hutchins told him to cut
29:20
Speaker 1: the gun, And of course she can't be cross examined.
29:23
Speaker 1: She's dead. What do you make of this? I think
29:26
Speaker 1: she may have if she believed that it was a
29:29
Speaker 1: cold gun and she was trying to line up her shot.
29:31
Speaker 1: She was. It's credible that she was coaching him in
29:36
Speaker 1: what position the gun should be held in order for
29:38
Speaker 1: the shot to be You know what she visualized. But
29:42
Speaker 1: what does that have to do with anything, Steve? I
29:44
Speaker 1: didn't get it. Why does the position your point how
29:47
Speaker 1: you're pointing the gun had to do with cocking the gun. Yeah,
29:50
Speaker 1: as you said, we can't know what he was told
29:52
Speaker 1: to do. But if someone tells you to do something
29:56
Speaker 1: that's unsafe, you use your judgment thing you don't do it,
29:59
Speaker 1: or you'd say you'd tell Helena. Look, if you want
30:01
Speaker 1: the gun pointed at the camera, Okay, step away from
30:04
Speaker 1: the camera and then I'll point it and you can
30:06
Speaker 1: watch on the monitor and see if if that's the
30:08
Speaker 1: shot that you want. But you don't point the gun
30:10
Speaker 1: when there's a person in front of you. Time stories
30:26
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. You know, doctor Angie Arnold, we need
30:33
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. There's no way that Alec Baldwin does not
30:38
Speaker 1: know about the fifth and emmic right to remain silent.
30:41
Speaker 1: Why is he continually going on Aaron and speaking well, Nancy,
30:47
Speaker 1: I feel like he I don't know Alec Baldwin, but
30:52
Speaker 1: seems like this is indicative of someone who is very
30:56
Speaker 1: entitled and may think that he's a little bit better.
30:59
Speaker 1: I've one and knows and he's above the law, and
31:03
Speaker 1: somehow it's not. It's not thinking in his brain that
31:08
Speaker 1: he did something wrong and he should keep his mouth shut.
31:12
Speaker 1: And in my world that means that you're very entitled.
31:16
Speaker 1: Maybe he's a bit of a narcissist, and I know
31:19
Speaker 1: I use that word a lot, but it's but it's
31:21
Speaker 1: it's a good word that describes behavior like us. He
31:25
Speaker 1: is an incredible actor, there's no doubt about that. Yes,
31:29
Speaker 1: here we have a dead body, not just a dead body,
31:33
Speaker 1: a dead mother, a child growing out without without the
31:37
Speaker 1: mom for the rest of his life, a life sentence.
31:42
Speaker 1: So here is Baldwin. You just heard him talking about
31:46
Speaker 1: the media going on and on, yes, where it's not
31:48
Speaker 1: mine And here he is going on and on the
31:52
Speaker 1: Christ Carolla project. You're familiar with what fanning a gun
31:55
Speaker 1: is if you heard of that phrase fanning a gun, Yes,
31:57
Speaker 1: but explain. If you pull the hammer back and you
32:01
Speaker 1: don't lock the hammer. If you pull the hammer back
32:03
Speaker 1: pretty far. In old Western movies, you'd see someone fan
32:07
Speaker 1: the hammer of the gun. The hammer didn't lock. You
32:10
Speaker 1: pulled it back to an extent where it would fire
32:13
Speaker 1: the bullet without you pulling the trigger, without you locking
32:16
Speaker 1: the hammer. The man who's the principal safety officer on
32:19
Speaker 1: the set of the film declared that the gun was
32:20
Speaker 1: safe when he handed it to me. The person who
32:22
Speaker 1: was the principal safety officer of the film declared in
32:26
Speaker 1: front of the entire assemblage, this is a cold gun. Okay,
32:30
Speaker 1: Steve Wolf, what did he just say? Why is he
32:32
Speaker 1: saying that? Does that help him or hurt him? And
32:34
Speaker 1: it doesn't help him at all? Because no one can
32:36
Speaker 1: tell you that the gun in your hand is safe.
32:40
Speaker 1: That matters other than you. You're the one holding the gun.
32:45
Speaker 1: Is your responsibility to make sure the gun is clear,
32:48
Speaker 1: not to listen to what if someone else says who
32:51
Speaker 1: may or may not checked the gun, or may or
32:53
Speaker 1: may not know what they're doing. If he had an
32:55
Speaker 1: armorer available to him, they sent her off to go
32:58
Speaker 1: do something else. She's the one who could have checked
33:00
Speaker 1: the gun and actually showed him what was inside so
33:03
Speaker 1: that he would know the condition of the firearm in
33:05
Speaker 1: his hand. But when you discharge a firearm, you are
33:09
Speaker 1: responsible for the path of that bullet and all of
33:11
Speaker 1: the damage it does. No one else you know. Joseph's
33:14
Speaker 1: got Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and also death investigator.
33:19
Speaker 1: You have testified in front of mini jury trials. I
33:24
Speaker 1: tell you, whenever I would handle a gun in front
33:26
Speaker 1: of a jury. I would be so careful with it
33:30
Speaker 1: because you know, even though I checked the chamber before
33:33
Speaker 1: the jury would even come back in, I was always
33:36
Speaker 1: worried that something would go wrong. That gun went off
33:39
Speaker 1: in the middle of a trial. Number One, it can
33:42
Speaker 1: hurt somebody. Number Two, I have a mistrial, I start
33:44
Speaker 1: all over again. Plus I didn't want to alienate jurars,
33:48
Speaker 1: so I would always when they would come in, go
33:50
Speaker 1: pick up the gun in front of them, pull out
33:54
Speaker 1: the chamber, look in it, put the chamber back, and
33:57
Speaker 1: then hold it facing down so the jury would not
34:00
Speaker 1: be alarmed in any way. I just kind of really
34:05
Speaker 1: hard to believe that you would pull back the hammer
34:08
Speaker 1: and pull the trigger ever, unless you met shoot somebody.
34:12
Speaker 1: Bigger question they're playing pretend, Nancy, who is that a
34:16
Speaker 1: BA specific place? This is a this is a movie shoot,
34:20
Speaker 1: this is not real life. What in the hill are
34:24
Speaker 1: you doing with live ammunition? Oh? I'm glad you said that.
34:28
Speaker 1: That leads me to our cut twenty seven. This is
34:30
Speaker 1: Alan Ballwin again talking on the Chris Como project. Listen, now,
34:35
Speaker 1: why did he say that if he didn't know, if
34:37
Speaker 1: he hadn't checked. The point is all of us were
34:40
Speaker 1: told that everything was cool and you can relax, and
34:42
Speaker 1: we're working with a gun that's saved to reherswa bubbly.
34:45
Speaker 1: He explained it to me effectively that exactly what can
34:48
Speaker 1: happen if you pull a hammer back and let it
34:50
Speaker 1: go if there's a live round. See, there's only one
34:52
Speaker 1: question to ask here, who put a live round in
34:54
Speaker 1: the gun? That's it. There is no other question to ask. Okay,
35:04
Speaker 1: yes there is, and that is who pulled the trigger? Well,
35:08
Speaker 1: of course, the spokespeople for Baldwin as telling all the
35:13
Speaker 1: media how they're misinterpreting this brand new FBI ballistics report.
35:19
Speaker 1: Good luck telling the FBI they're wrong. Okay, take a
35:22
Speaker 1: listen to our cut thirty four our friends at Fox News.
35:26
Speaker 1: A spokesman for Baldwin has already said that the media
35:29
Speaker 1: is misinterpreting the report right, that that we're getting it wrong.
35:33
Speaker 1: But the second part is they do point out that
35:35
Speaker 1: this gun malfunctioned during testing at the FBI. In fact,
35:40
Speaker 1: it was only actually successfully fired once and when it did,
35:44
Speaker 1: part of the trigger seer basically sheared off and the
35:49
Speaker 1: firing pit hit the bullet and it fired. But they're
35:52
Speaker 1: going to be able to look at that and go listen,
35:54
Speaker 1: this was an unreliable weapon at the first place, and
35:58
Speaker 1: what my clients said or claimed could actually be true.
36:01
Speaker 1: That's what they'll maintain. Sta Wolf, please interpret that. Well,
36:06
Speaker 1: what the FBI did ended up being destructive testing. But
36:10
Speaker 1: the test that they did showed that the gun was
36:13
Speaker 1: in fact working properly. It did not malfunction. It did
36:17
Speaker 1: not fire other than one the trigger was pressed as
36:22
Speaker 1: would be expected. The FBI is testing was a little
36:26
Speaker 1: heavy handed on this old gun, and they ended up
36:29
Speaker 1: breaking it before they could further fire it. Why prior
36:32
Speaker 1: to having broken it, they will table to verify that
36:35
Speaker 1: the gun had been in proper working Why how do
36:38
Speaker 1: you break a gun of firing it? Well, they were
36:41
Speaker 1: hitting the gun, would try to get the hammal forward
36:46
Speaker 1: and were unable to. Okay, well, you know what's going
36:49
Speaker 1: to happen with that, Sta Wolf, if there ever is
36:51
Speaker 1: a trial, the defence is going to argue, well, the
36:54
Speaker 1: FBI destroyed the gun on purpose, so we couldn't test it.
36:57
Speaker 1: I can tell you that's going to happen. Well, it
36:59
Speaker 1: already was test said, they had already they had already
37:02
Speaker 1: confirmed that the safety stops worked properly on the hammer.
37:07
Speaker 1: Yeys take listen our friends at Inside Edition, Baldwin's lawyer
37:10
Speaker 1: says the FBI report is being misconstrued. Meanwhile, the criminal
37:14
Speaker 1: investigation by the Albuquerque DA continues. I'm waiting and waiting
37:19
Speaker 1: and waiting, and then the announcement's going to come about.
37:21
Speaker 1: Who is or isn't going to be charged? The process
37:23
Speaker 1: is slow. I am deeply, deeply, deeply resentful and bitter
37:28
Speaker 1: about how slow the process has been. The interview ends
37:31
Speaker 1: on a note of dark humor. I told people I'm
37:34
Speaker 1: gonna be a greeter in Vegas any day. Now. I'm
37:36
Speaker 1: gonna remember me I was in Beetlejuice. How are you? Everybody? Please?
37:39
Speaker 1: Table nine, Frank, Table nine, As long as you do
37:42
Speaker 1: it without a gun in your hand. We wait as
37:45
Speaker 1: justice unfolds. What will the district attorney do now, if anything?
37:51
Speaker 1: Or is he simply starstruck? Nancy Grace corm story, Sidney All, goodbye,