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Tarot and the Psychology of the Soul with Mariana Louis · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What a.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. Today we got a very
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: special guest. We got Marianna Lewis joining us. I'm very
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: excited to have her on to talk about tyrol and psychology.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: But before we.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Get to her, let's introduce the other rejects on the show.
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  Speaker 3: We got Judith back with us. Judith the Loon. What
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: is going on?
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Judith? How are you?
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  Speaker 4: Hi? Is sued at the Loon and you can catch
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: me on YouTube as the Loon and on Twitter as
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: the Loon as well.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, appreciate it. And we got Ethan
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  Speaker 1: Indigo what is going on?
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  Speaker 4: Sir?
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  Speaker 1: How are you?
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  Speaker 5: Oh? Great to see you guys. Austin be here, looking
• 1:03
  Speaker 5: forward to this, always excited to learn more about Tara
• 1:07
  Speaker 5: and this this book seems really interesting. Ethan Indigo Smith
• 1:12
  Speaker 5: easy to find on all the social media. I've written
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: a few books and write several articles not so infrequently.
• 1:20
  Speaker 5: Want more to come pretty soon here, So yeah, appreciate
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: it being here.
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  Speaker 3: Well, the website highly appreciates your writing, so thank you
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: very much, sir. If it wasn't for you, I don't
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  Speaker 3: think anybody be adding it to it. I should be
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: adding to it, and I'm not so. But thank you
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  Speaker 3: very much, Ethan. Always great to have you on. And
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  Speaker 3: today we're joined by Marianna Lewis and archetypal Taois and
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  Speaker 3: a co host and the co host of Sora Mystica,
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  Speaker 3: the podcast where she an astrologer at Christina unpacked symbolism, archetypes, dreams,
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  Speaker 3: and modern spirituality with equal parts scholarship and magic. Marianna
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  Speaker 3: is also the creator of an archetypal Tarot approach that
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  Speaker 3: treats the cards as mirrors of the psyche, less fortune telling,
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  Speaker 3: more soul work. She's also the author of Taro and
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  Speaker 3: the Psychology of the Soul, exploring the archetypal mirrors of
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  Speaker 3: the psyche, which we will be talking about today. So, Marianna,
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  Speaker 3: if there is anything I left out or anything that
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: you would like to advertise the podcast and where they
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: can find that, this and that, please let everybody know
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: where they can find your amazing wan awesome, Well.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I am on Instagram a
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: lot as Persephone's sister. And then there's also Sore mysticas
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: the name of the podcast you can find both of
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: those things there and also floating around on YouTube and
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: substack and all those all the places. But you can
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: always find me as at Persephane's Sister. That's that's my
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: handle that I go by. But yeah, you got you
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: got all the all the big things that I do.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't want to leave anything out, you know. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: but thank you very much for coming on. Very excited.
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  Speaker 1: I'm being into Taro.
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  Speaker 3: I'm also I think it's also that you look at
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: it from another angle. But again, same question I give
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: everybody who comes on the show about the occult, I guess,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: what was it like? When did you realize this was
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: for you? How did you end up even getting into this?
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  Speaker 3: If you don't want I.
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  Speaker 2: Actually started in my very early twenties. I found a
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  Speaker 2: book in my grandfather's attic called The Undiscovered Self by
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  Speaker 2: Carl Jung, and I found that and I started reading that,
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  Speaker 2: and then that was it. And I was obsessed with
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  Speaker 2: Young and I read everything that I could find by Young.
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  Speaker 2: And I was an actor actually in New York doing
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: the actor life. And then I one day I was like,
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  Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore. I gave it up. I
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  Speaker 2: went back to school and I got my master's degree
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  Speaker 2: in Western Intellectual Traditions, focusing in occult philosophy. So the
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  Speaker 2: Tarot was like something I picked up along the way.
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  Speaker 2: Someone gave me a terroraating one time, and I was like,
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  Speaker 2: this is amazing. This is a thing that I have
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  Speaker 2: to keep studying. And the union psychology plus the occult philosophy,
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  Speaker 2: it just all and the archetypal theory, it just all
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  Speaker 2: kind of coalesced into this approach and then it became
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  Speaker 2: this career that I have, which was very blessed to
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  Speaker 2: have just unfolded in this extordinary way. So it was
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: just kind of kismet all just because I found a
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  Speaker 2: book in an attic and was like, I don't know,
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  Speaker 2: let's try this. It looks interesting.
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  Speaker 3: I like how it was called Young and that's something
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  Speaker 3: like like overtly blatant, like a cult, you know what
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  Speaker 3: I'm saying. Like it wasn't like, oh I came across
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  Speaker 3: Crowley or Golden Dorm book. It is real regardable or
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  Speaker 3: mainly p hole. You know, it's pretty cool that it
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  Speaker 3: came from that way. So it was probably that was
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: a rabbit hole in itself getting into his ship, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, when like full psychology, like, oh he's into
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  Speaker 2: some weird stuff. And then that that went there was
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  Speaker 2: very interesting.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, awesome, awesome. Did anybody want to say anything or
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  Speaker 3: else anything before I keep going?
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  Speaker 1: I want to.
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  Speaker 5: I was just gonna joke that Young hits like that.
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  Speaker 5: You get a hold of a young book and then
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  Speaker 5: your whole life path is oriented in a different way.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you're like, oh, wow, everything has to change.
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  Speaker 2: I can't do what I was doing before. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I also know, like I I just wanted to know,
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  Speaker 3: like kind of I guess what would you consider you?
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  Speaker 1: So are you?
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  Speaker 3: Are you like a ceremonial magician? Like do you do
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  Speaker 3: you do ritual work or is it not to that extent?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, I'm not. I don't really go that
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  Speaker 2: deep into into that kind of practice. My wheelhouse is
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  Speaker 2: really Taro. Once I like narrowed myself on Taro. That's
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  Speaker 2: kind of where I stuck. I have I do some
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  Speaker 2: ultra work and like kind of contemporary witchcraft light you know,
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  Speaker 2: like I don't really have a set practice that I
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  Speaker 2: work with, but but really Taro is is kind of
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  Speaker 2: where I live.
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  Speaker 1: Nice What drawn you? What drew you? To uh, what
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  Speaker 1: drew you to taro? Like what was it about that?
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  Speaker 3: Was it originally divination or did you think it went
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  Speaker 3: well with psychology?
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  Speaker 2: I you know, I did a little bit of the
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  Speaker 2: eaching first because Young talks about it so much that I,
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  Speaker 2: you know, dabbled in that and I was seeing what
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  Speaker 2: that was about. So it was a little bit familiar
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  Speaker 2: with divination. But it's it's the simpleism of the tarot,
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  Speaker 2: Like it's the fact that you have of these seventy
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  Speaker 2: eight cards and that's the card and they don't change
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  Speaker 2: for the most part. I mean, like today people change
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  Speaker 2: them all the time, but in the traditional system, like
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  Speaker 2: that's what you have, and they are these really weird
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  Speaker 2: kind of collection of like choices for what these cards are.
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  Speaker 2: We have the Hermit and we have Moon, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: some of them like fit the Christian context that the
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  Speaker 2: tara was made in in the fifteenth century, but then
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  Speaker 2: some of them don't. Like we have the Lovers, you know,
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  Speaker 2: which is Adam and Eve but also something very sexual
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  Speaker 2: about it. And then we have the Devil of course,
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  Speaker 2: but then we have the Hangedman. What's that about? And
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  Speaker 2: so it was just a fascinating kind of array of
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  Speaker 2: symbols that I needed to like crack the code. I
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: need to figure out what it was all about. And
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  Speaker 2: so I just that's what I've been doing ever since
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  Speaker 2: I got my first reading. Like the High Priestess card
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  Speaker 2: is one of the most fascinating cards because in fourteen
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  Speaker 2: fifty what were they doing with the High Priestess or
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  Speaker 2: back then she was called the pope Ess? Why did
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  Speaker 2: they have that card? And so this has been my fascination.
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  Speaker 1: That's interesting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that.
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  Speaker 6: How did you utilize the lessons or facets of divination
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  Speaker 6: through the eaching and your tarot practice or has that
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  Speaker 6: complimented or I think.
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  Speaker 2: That what you know, something that's been really interesting and
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  Speaker 2: working a little bit with the eaching and then working
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  Speaker 2: with the taro was seeing the different types of divination
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  Speaker 2: out there and you really have to work with them
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  Speaker 2: in different ways. So Marie Louis van Franz, who's a
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  Speaker 2: like well known union, she has a book on synchronicity
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  Speaker 2: and divination, and she says that there's really two kinds
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  Speaker 2: of divination. There's binary divination and there's chaos divination. If
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  Speaker 2: you're working with binary divination, there's generally going to be
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  Speaker 2: a like it's like a coin flip. You're going to
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  Speaker 2: do the thing and you're going to get a So
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  Speaker 2: eaching kind of works in that way where you have
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  Speaker 2: you throw the coins or you throw the aerostos and
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  Speaker 2: you get this is your hexagram and so this is
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  Speaker 2: how what you know what message you're getting. Whereas the
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  Speaker 2: Taro you do pull the cards, but then you have
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  Speaker 2: this chaotic interpretation ahead of you. There is no this
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  Speaker 2: card means this, and this card means this, and this
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  Speaker 2: card means this. You you it's like reading tea leaves
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  Speaker 2: kind of where you're pulling out the interpretation based on
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  Speaker 2: your particular skill set. And yes there's like practices and
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  Speaker 2: established things that you're pulling from, but it's pure chaos.
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  Speaker 2: And so they're very different systems. So when I'm working
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  Speaker 2: with Taro, that's kind of my go to. It's like
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  Speaker 2: in being in that chaotic divination, I feel a little
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  Speaker 2: bit more comfortable. I guess there's more room to see
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  Speaker 2: what comes up from the unconscious and what kinds of
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  Speaker 2: things appear and the way they you know, intuitive psyche
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  Speaker 2: is activated. It's it's that's what really fascinates me.
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  Speaker 5: It's a super interesting contrast to the binary and the chaos.
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  Speaker 5: Thanks for sharing that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. At first when you said that,
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  Speaker 1: I was like, you totally totally makes sense. Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: M Yeah, I didn't come up with it. She. When
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  Speaker 2: I was reading that, I was like, oh my god, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's it. I get like so many students who are
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: like they're frustrated. They pull cards and they're like, well,
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  Speaker 2: what does it mean. I'm like, I don't know. No,
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  Speaker 2: I mean it's not it's not binary divination. You're not
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: going to get like that, and that card means that.
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  Speaker 2: So here's your answer. It's chaotic. You have to sort
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: through the symbols and kind of pull up that divinatory
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  Speaker 2: gift yourself. That's like the task of the of the
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: chaotic divination practice. So it's takes practice, it takes work,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: it takes trusting or kind of intuitive insights, all that stuff.
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  Speaker 1: JUDI, do you have anything before I go forward?
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  Speaker 4: Still, but I think you sort of answered it because
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  Speaker 4: you said you've dealt with witchcraft before, correct And I
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: did dabble in that a little bit. And I was
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: told by a few hypoeses with the major iconas when
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: it comes to the tarots, if you lay them out.
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  Speaker 4: It's like a path working that you could go through.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: So I was wondering if, with the psychology that you're
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: putting behind it, would you recommend that as a pathworking
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: over let's say the Kabbala or anything else other systems,
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: planetary or anything like that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question because they really kind of
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: are similar in that, you know, Kabala gives you the
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  Speaker 2: tree right that you're climbing or you're going up or
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: you're going down, whichever path you're taking. And with the
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: planets too, you're kind of working with the different energies
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: and how they're moving in your chart. And so the
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  Speaker 2: way that I see the tarot is exactly that the
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  Speaker 2: major arcana. This is the great secret of the taro.
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  Speaker 2: The great mystery of it is that those twenty two cards.
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  Speaker 2: Those who don't know, the tarot is broken into two
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  Speaker 2: different types of cards, the minor arcana and the major Orcana.
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  Speaker 2: The minor arcana is just your playing depth that you have.
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  Speaker 2: You have the Ace of Cups, you have the Night
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  Speaker 2: of Lawns, et cetera. But then the major arcana are
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: these like face cards, these these call them trump cards
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  Speaker 2: as well, that have their each have their own name,
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  Speaker 2: and they're in this particular sequence and that sequence doesn't change,
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  Speaker 2: and that sequence holds the secret of this spiritual pathway
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  Speaker 2: that we're all on. So bringing in union psychology, this
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: is what I talk a lot about in the book,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: is we have the path of individuation laid out like
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  Speaker 2: this is the psycho spiritual path that we're all on.
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  Speaker 2: So when you pull this card, you're kind of clued
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  Speaker 2: into this is the stage I'm at in this process.
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  Speaker 2: And of course it's not linear, it's spirallytic, it's cyclical,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: so we're always going back and forth in the path.
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  Speaker 2: So we can pull a card that's ahead and then
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: a card that's behind, and it doesn't showing up kind
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: of like how this movement is happening. So it is
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: like this very kind of spiritual tool when you use
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: it that way, and psychological tool, because when you're thinking
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  Speaker 2: about individuation the way that Young talked about it, really
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  Speaker 2: talked about it in two ways, talked about it practically
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  Speaker 2: as like we have to separate from the mass and
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  Speaker 2: individuate and become our authentic self and say who am I?
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  Speaker 7: Right?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And it's not just what society has told me? I
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: am or my parents have told me I am. And
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  Speaker 2: we also have to do this mystical individuation, which is
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: trying to reunite with that archetype of the self, which
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: is the singular self, but also the cosmic self, the
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: greater self, the all right, So these are both the
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: tasks of the individuation process. So that's what the Tarot
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: is showing us, like what that process is and where
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: are we at any point? Is this information about what
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: we're trying to we need to learn? How do we
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: need to grow in that moment?
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you?
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: Okay, So I do have a follow up on that one,
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: because when you're reading Tara, people usually say you're supposed
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: to read for someone else. Technically you're not supposed to
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: read yourself. But your take on it is technically you're
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: supposed to be using it to help you with your path.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: That's the only way. And this is just an assumption
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: that the psychology that you're talking about would actually apply
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: to it.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's one of the big I think misconceptions
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: that people have about Tara. You know, there's a lot
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: of rules that we hear about it, and one of
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: the things is like, you're only supposed to read for
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: other people. Also, like you're not supposed to buy your
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: own deck, Like there's all these things you know, it's
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: it's someone made that up at some point, and who
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: knows where that came from.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So who didn't have the money to buy their own
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: So that yeah.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like being initiated into, like you know,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: a secret society or something. You can't just walk and
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: be like, hi, I'm here, I'm ready then like this,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I think that's the idea, But today we don't. We
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: don't really all those rules and these like old old
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: like kind of wives tales that we've pulled through. So
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: when I like, I read professionally, so I read for
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: other people all the time. That's my work. So when
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: I'm reading, I'm applying what the person is telling me
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: about themselves and my particular knowledge, and like we're in
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: conversation to figure out what these cards are saying to
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: them and how they're laying out this story. But if
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: I'm pulling for myself, I'm doing the same thing. It's
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: harder to read for yourself because you don't have any objectivity,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: so you can't like be a little bit on the
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: outside and be like hmm, maybe we need to challenge
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: what the ego wants this to be and shift it,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: like be a little bit more curious. So a lot
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: of people find it easier to read for others or
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: to have cards read for them rather than reading for yourself.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: But you can, you absolutely can read for yourself, and
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: it can be a very very enriching tool. And it
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't I'd like always say, like, please don't do this
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: every single day of your life. You pull cards every
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: single day of your life, going to be bombarded with
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: all these things, and you're going to try to like
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: make sense of everything. I think it should be used
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: more ritually, like more in the kind of sacred practice
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: and something like you're engaging with this and saying I
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: need to reflect on where I am right now, or
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: I need to understand this point, this point of tension
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: in my life, and I need to kind of play
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: out the symbols and see what comes through.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I like that, Uh, you know, I actually do.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: I mean I do think you know, obviously you could
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: read people cards, but I do think just for me,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: I've always thought that the taro was more of like
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: kind of benefited somebody learning them themselves, kind of in
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: the sense that you look at it more of like
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: psychological aspect.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: H yeah, I agree. I like it's it's very dangerous
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: territory when you use the taro in like traditional divination
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: the way that it might have been used in the
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: nineteen century, Like the history of the tara was not
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: originally a divination tool. Originally it was it was just
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: a playing card. It was like bridge. It was just
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: a playing card game that the very, very rich nobility
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: would play and they would have these decks commissioned to
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: show off how rich they were in this whole thing.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: And then it just became popular and kind of fell
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: out of fashion as a game and just the you know,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: it was picked up as this form of divination and
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: kind of later in the late eighteenth century through the
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: nineteenth century, and then it was in the twentieth century
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: that Crowley and Arthur Waite kind of were like, wait
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: a second. I mean there were guys before them too,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: but they were like, there's something really mystical in this.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: And since then, I mean, it's still been used as
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: divination throughout the twentieth century, but I would say in
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: the last like thirty forty years, it's much much more
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: common to use it as a psychological tool that it
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: is as a divinatory tool. So when you're using it
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: pure divination like when am I going to meet my
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: soulmate kind of thing, there are people out there really
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: good at that, and they can be like, oh, you
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: got the Night of Cups really soon, you know, and
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: they read it that way. But it's not it's not
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: so popular anymore to do that. A lot of a
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: lot of people. They use it to say like, what's
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: going on? Why am I stuck here? Why do not
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I do not understand this problem in my life? And
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: it's that's really where I find it to be most useful,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: because if you read it in that strict divination, that's
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: like trying to tell the future, Like, it can be
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: really confusing because again it's chaotic, so you're like, wait,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: is this a good thing or a bad thing? I
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: got the Ten of Swords, which is this card with
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: the guy with knives in his back? Am I gonna like?
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Is the worst thing ever going to happen to me?
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Or is this me being like I should just pay
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: better attention to what's behind me? You know, we don't
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: really know always how to interpret it unless you're like
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: a super expert like master at the Taro. I don't
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: recommend reading it like for prediction, because it can be scary,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: it can be it can be really overwhelming.
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: Well, I really like that you add the idea of
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: individuation into the cards as you're talking about, because it
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: kind of instead of just purely divination, I'm at the
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: whim of destiny. It's like, oh, I can work on
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: this and be focused on that. Like you're saying, as
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: soon as you bring that into the discussion, you almost
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: give some self responsibility and you know, hope to do
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: something different.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't lose autonomy, which I think is like
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: the scary thing in working with any kind of divination
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: is that once you know the future, you're trapped in
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: in the future. It's like Oedipus one on one right,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: You're given the prophecy, and now the prophecy is going
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: to happen whether you want it to or not. You're
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: going to do everything you can to avoid the prophecy,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and you're going to walk right into it. So it's
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I always think it's it's kind of a dangerous thing
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: to to with knowing the future or trying to predict
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: the future, because then you feel trapped in it. And
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: the thing that is actually useful is to say, well,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: how does this give me back my autonomy in my life?
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: To say, like, I have to choose how to live.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: I really think This is something I talk about a
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: little bit in my book, is that people gravitate towards
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: the tarot because life is overwhelming and they want to
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: be told what to do and how to live it
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: so that they don't have that burden of like what
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: if I mess it up? If I do the wrong thing,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: so the cards will tell me and then it'll be right.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: And the real way that the taro is beneficial is
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: that it helps us understand how we want to live, Like,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: what's the right way for us to live? Who are
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: we really? What is it that we desire in life?
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: What point are we in life? Where are we blind
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: to our own issues? Right? These kinds of things, so
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: that we make our choices in life and feel strong
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: in them and feel clear about them. That's really what
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: it's good at when we can actually use it that way.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, in the past, when I used to do a
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: lot of ritual work, there was times when I'd be like,
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: guess was more theorgy, or it was working on myself
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: and not really like trying to cast spells out into
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: the public. And there was a lot of times where
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: it's you know, I was like literally trying to work
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: on stuff that I wanted to change about myself that
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: I thought it was an issue. And sometimes I would
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: try to attribute that to like the cabalistic tree of life,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: and I would sometimes like, if I'm kind of finding
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: a sphere that I think like might help deal with
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: the issue. Sometimes I would take the cards that are
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: on the paths, the major kind of the ones that
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: were like going towards that sphere or leaving it, and
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: sometimes I would cooperate them on my altar and I
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: would try to like meditate on them and see if
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: something came out to me as.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah, that's like really engaging that kind of
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: archetypal level of what the cards present, because you think
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: of like what Jung how Young described archetypes, they're like
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: the inner gods of the psyche, right, so we can
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: kind of pull them out almost like deities. And I
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: recommend this all the time with clients. When a certain
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: card comes up and it's really loud and like take
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: that out of your deck, put that on your alter.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: You're working with that that energy almost like a deity now,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: and so that's that's the task for you. Because a
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: lot of these the cards, you know, are we have
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Justice in the Hermit and the Hangman. They are personified
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: figures of these archetypal energies. So it can be really
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: really awesome to work with it that way.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I enjoyed it, LUs I think, well, there's also times,
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: so many times, and I'm sure Judith heard it herself
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: at the OTO so many times they would always suggest
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: meditate on the cards too. If you don't understand them,
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: just sit there and meditate on them. So I would
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: do that a lot myself. I don't think it got
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: too far, but you know, I try that could with
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: tower unless I attribute it to the cabalistic Tree of life.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: So I mean, yeah, there's so many layers that are
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: overlap between them, so it's it's a great, great pathway in.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I recommend that all the time. I usually kind of
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: present it as like union active imagination, so it's like
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: it's a form of meditation that's kind of like lucid dreaming,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: and so I recommend that a lot to my students
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: and clients to like pull in the image of the
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: card and let this like lucid dream sort of unfold
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: and waking time, and that always like presents something wild.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: It's it's really it's very cool. So I give that
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: assignment a lot.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Nice Go ahead, Ruth, go ahead.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: I'm curious since you use young it's the psychology part
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: with the tarot within your clients. Some of these cars
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: are very heavy. Depending on where people are in life
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: and when they hit that stone, what what is your suggestion?
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: Do you actually suggest that they go get therapy by
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: a psychop Okay, well.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it depends on the things that are
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: coming up and you know what's going on for them.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: But all, like I teach students who are trying to
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: become terriators themselves in this kind of archetypal methodology. One
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: of the first things is like, if someone is overwhelmed,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: have a referral ready to go, because this is heavy
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: duty psychological stuff. But I will say that eighty percent
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: of my clients are either in therapy or therapists themselves.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Wow, So yeah, it's interesting.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's I think that a lot of
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: them are kind of already in that headspace of like
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: I'm working and I want to like a really concentrated
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: way to dig in deeper with like where I am
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: right now. Yeah, I've also had a bunch of clients
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: who are not not in place, and they are like
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: you know that borderline between like I'm in this spiritual
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: thing and I'm crossing over into delusion and like that
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: kind of the inner things are becoming real things on
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: the outside. I've gotten some of those clients too, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: then the first thing I do is like, probably you
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: need some kind of external help and grounding because this
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: is this is like Young talked about this himself how
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: he thought he went into a psychosis when he was
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: really getting into his building his psychology because he kept
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: having these visions like these inner archetypes were just kind
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: of manifesting in these like waking dreams, and he thought
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: he was going nuts. And then he wrote it all
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: down and it became his read book, which is now
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: like one of the best things we have from his
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: psychology because it's personal rather than it being like just scientific.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: And that's a lot where a lot of his psychology
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: came from. So it's like, you know, we go into
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: these states sometimes where the inner becomes outer and we
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: lose a little bit of touch with reality. But we
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: just we need something to ground us. We need someone
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: to be paying attention to us that in that passage.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: So I always recommend that.
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: I wonder too that what practices might recommend and maybe
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: to your personal kind of practice, what do you do
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: to cool down or I don't want to term it
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: in things that are not appropriate, but I it cooled
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: down to kind of get into a dish shape divinatory
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: state before you like reading.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: My opinion honestly is that if you're already in a
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: place where you feel like you're a little bit out
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: of touch with reality or things are very overwhelming, don't
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: engage with it, like we don't want to like, you know,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: stoke the beast. I think that it's the thing you
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: always want to like look at first, in my opinion,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: is what your dreams are presenting or what you're what
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: you are coming up with yourself. You don't need to
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: add more symbols and images to that to make like,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: you know, I had a client one time who was
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: really kind of like in this state where there's a
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: lot of like weird images coming to this person they're
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: having waking visions a lot. And then I pulled a
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: certain card from them, and then they were emailing me
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: for months about how this card was now like following
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: them and they would look at the corner and they
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: would see this like as a real person. I was like, WHOA,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: we don't need more of these images. Like you can
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: just work with what is presented to you by your
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: own unconscious and be in a therapeutic sitting where you
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: have somebody to help you make sense of it. I
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: honestly think that whenever we're engaging with this, when it
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: starts to feel overwhelming and we lose touch with reality
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: a little bit, we should pull back. Unless you're in
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: a contained space, like if you're working with a therapist
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: or an analyst or something like that, then they'll guide
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: you through it. But it's happened to me where I've
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: worked too much with the taro and then I'm like overwhelmed.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: I'm overwhelmed my material and I'm like I don't even
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: know what to do with all of this, So put
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: it away. You don't have to make you don't have
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: to get every reading or figure out every card. Most
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: of these things are working on you. Unconsciously anyway, they
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: will be pulling out things from your own psyche. So
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I know that's not like there's not always what people
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: want to hear that people want to go farther into
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: it and they're like, stuff's happening, let's go, let's dig,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: and I'm kind of like it's it can be it
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: can be dangerous to lose touch with reality like that
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: without without kind of having that that it's grounding somewhere.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: It's just it could be scary.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if you just have any other questions, did I
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: did want a teeter off to be different subject?
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: All right?
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Uh, I just wanted to ask if you don't mind
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: a little bit about the podcast as well, because you
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: don't want to help you promote that as well, because
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: when I was looking at it definitely looks like a
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: lot of stuff i'd becover.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: I'd be interested in how did that begin? How did
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: that start? Like what came up? Like, how did that
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: come up?
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So my friend Christina Ferrella, she's the co host,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: and that she's an astrologer. She works in She's not
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: like a union like kind of oriented person like I am, necessarily,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: but she works in the same sort of way with
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: like archetypes and looking at things more psychologically. And we've
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: been like best friends, really good friends for years, and
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: I was just always like, we talk about this on
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: the phone, why don't we just record it and put
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: it out there. So she was really busy for a while,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: so it took some time to convince her and then
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: and then we started it a few years ago at
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: this point, and we've kind of slowed down the last
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: few months because she had a baby recently, so taking
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: a little break as she's adjusting. But we're gonna hopefully
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: come back full throttle in the next few months.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: So yeah, very nice.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: And for the listeners, like, what's the type of stuff
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: that you covered on that just to get people an idea.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So we we talk about the basically the symbols
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: of life. It's it's sort of we we look at
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: really like individual symbols. So we have an episode on
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: the Moon the Maiden, you know, we talk a little
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: bit about witchcraft and ritual, we talk about young and individuation.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: We have an episode with one of the episodes that
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I wanted to do forever is the Unicorns, So maybe
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: we'll do that sometime soon because like that's such a
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: what is that about? What's that symbol about? So basically,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: we take these symbols that are in our zeitgeist, that
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: are in the collective consciousness, we try to dig in
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: to get to what does it actually mean? You know,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: what history is there about it, Where does it appear
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: in myth and all these kinds of things, so that
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: we sort of pull the layers apart and you know,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: see what it means for us.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Now that's awesome.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would highly suggest that people listen to this
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: show to go check out that show I was looking at,
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: like again, the shows that totally topics that I've either
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: covered or would like to.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, And then at the end we do
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: we will have listeners send in a dream and we'll
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: pull apart. We'll try to pull some of the symbols
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: of their dreams to like see how these things like
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: kind of reflect in our actual psyches. So that's always
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: that's one of my favorite parts of the show.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: That's that's funny.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: There's one day a week where me and a co
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: host we cover a symbol or a sigul or some
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: type of thing. We cover one each and then we
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: read mail of people's dreams. Or like just experiences.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very cool. And people send us wild dreams,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: so oh yeah, get to hear crazy dreams. It's just fun.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Ye ye nice.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: So all right, so now, like I guess, I mean,
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: I know we've kind of been probably talking about stuff
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: that would be in that book, But what was it
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: that made you decide one day earlier I'm going to
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: write a book.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I actually have the Archetypal Tarot Schools, this
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: program I've been teaching for you know, three, three or
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: four years at this point. I started that as I
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: was like building out this approach to the tarot, like
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: this was just something in my head and my approach
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: and how I was working with clients. At some point
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: I was like, I should just like write all this
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: down and like put out this this. And when I
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: put that, like wrote it out for myself, I was like,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this is this is an actual system
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: of like working with the cards. And I had a
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: lot of students at that time. I was teaching about
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: just general information about the taro, and so I put
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: it into a long form class, a ten week class,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: and it was very successful and has continued to be
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: like a really popular offering, and so I get you know,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of people every year asking me, I don't
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: only teach it once a year's people always like when's
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: the next one coming out? And it was really I
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: realized that there's a lot of interest in this. So
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I kind of just took all of that material and
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: reformatted it and put some new things in and and
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: all that stuff and made it into a book. So
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: it just kind of, yeah, I was working on it
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: without realizing I was working on it for a very
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: long time.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: That's great. That worked out like that.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anybody have any questions, I just have one.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: Sorry, sorry you have? You said you have a lot
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: of students. Are those students like new or do you
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: have like, you know, oh school people, occultist, high priestesses,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: people who have been in traditions. How accepting are they
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: of this this approach?
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I have a really interesting like selection of people.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: I have some people who are like brand new to
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: the taro and they're just like, what is this about? Like,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: just tell me information about it? And then I have
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: other people who will reach out and they'll be like
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: I've been you know, a witch for forty years and
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: I want to learn, like a whole new approach to
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: this that I haven't like understood before, I haven't thought
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: of before. So I got to get this mixture of
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: people are very new to it and just like want
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: to work with it in this personal way, in this
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: way for inner you know, development, and then people who
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: have been doing this a very long time who are
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: just like, there's more information out there, what else can
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I learn? What other approaches can I take? So I
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: gotta get both. I think that most of my students
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: are people who are just trying to live their best
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: life and want a good tool to work with, and
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: so they kind of find me, and that's you know,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: like my website's like, Hi, this is what I do,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: when they're like, oh, yeah, that's what I want to learn.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: So it yeah, it works.
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: Could you share an example of how you might include
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: like lessons pertaining to the psyche or individuation in a reading. Yeah,
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: if that's proud of a question.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: No, No, it's good. So I think of a card
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: that would be like a really good example to the chariot.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: For example, this is a card that the basic image
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: of the card is a guy. He's in a chariot
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: and he has this canopy of stars over his head.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: This is based on the writer Weight taro, which is
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: created by Arthurweight and Pameless Smith. That's the system that
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I use. There's just a couple other ones. Crowley has one,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: and then there's the Mark Say, which is the older one.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: So in that one, he's there and he has a
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: black and white sphinx that are guiding him, you know.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: And traditionally this card is about like movement forward in life,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: like you'll have an idea or have some kind of inspiration.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: It's like this is going to be successful, move forward
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: with it. And that's like the traditional way of reading
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: the card. When I'm reading it, I see it as
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: this archetype of the ego in motion, right, So we
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: think about the ego as a union archetype that we're
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: talking about the sense of eye that is distinct from
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: that capital s self, which is like the big eye,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: and the ego is like the small eye, the personal eye.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: And so the chariot really initiates this individuation phase of
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: strengthening that ego, which Jung says has to be strong
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: in order to do the later work of facing our
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: shadow and are unconscious and the dark forces within us,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: and so we have to have that strong ego. He
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: calls it, like, I don't remember where the quote is from,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: but he's like, it's this little candle flame against the
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: entire of the night right. So we have to have
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: this strong candle in order to get any light as
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: you're pushing through that later phase. So we have to
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: develop the ego, and so the chariot initiates that. So
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: when I'm in a reading with someone, you know, I'm
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: usually not going to say, oh, yeah, this is going
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: to be a successful project, go for it or whatever.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Usually I'm saying, well, what is the ego in pursuit
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: of what is the motion that the ego is moving toward?
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And then I often will bring in the idea of
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: libido energy that Yung talked about, just different from like
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Freudian libido, which is sexual. Ungi and libido is just
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: pure life force energy. It's like just the psychic energy.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: One of the things that Jung says about it is
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: that the unconscious, the inner psyche like has a gradient.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: There's this natural flow that the psyche is trying to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: like pull that libido energy toward, and that's what the
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: chariot is moving toward, because one of the secrets of
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the card, if you pay close attention, is that the
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: chariot tear doesn't have any rains. The chariot is moving
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: on its own. He's just going with it. And so
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: here's the ego self saying, I'm trying to move my
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: life forward. But the secret is that life is moving
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: towards the thing that the unconscious already is directing it toward.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And so that's something we very often talk about when
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I pull that card. Where does that libido energy, where
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: is that gradient pulling you versus where does the ego
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: want to go? How can we develop that balance between
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: those two things. So that's an example of how I
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: might take that deeper in like an archetypal psychological way,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: rather than just staying on that surface level of here's
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: this guy in a chariot and we're going forward somewhere.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of times, I'll ask people about their
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: dreams and see if they have dreams of cars and
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: planes and vehicles flying off somewhere. That happens a lot
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: when I'm talking about that card. People be like, yeah,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: I just had a dream that my car stalled out.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, well, we're not on the libido path.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Let's see if we can find where the gradient is
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: and redirect ourselves. It's wild how often that happens where
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: the tarot is, Like the symbols that I see in
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the tarot come up in the same ones that people
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: are dreaming about. It's just it's I don't know, it's wild,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: but very cool, super cool.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's like I feel like the cards are
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: just representing the power of the mind at the time, right,
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: So the dreams correspondence makes sense.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: In a way.
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I had a dream years ago the day before I
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: got a reading, because I also preferring it readings from
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: other people for me, I don't like to do it myself.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: So I was about to get a reading from someone.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: In the night before, I had a dream that I
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: was I had two dreams. Actually. The first one was
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: that I was in a forest by myself and there
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: was no work to do, and I was like, that's
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: I had nothing to do and I didn't know what
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: to do with myself, and I was really like, what
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: do I do here? And then right after that, I
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: dreamed that I was in a hotel in Paris and
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: it was nighttime and I looked out the window and
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: like the Eiffel Tower was like sparkling, and it was
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: so peaceful and it was just so nice, and I
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: was like, this is lovely and I'm here by myself.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: And I woke up from these dreams and like, this
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: is not my normal dream. I'm usually dreaming chaos, and
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I like, what time is it? I missed my appointment,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: you know, the things that we've always dream about. And
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: then the next day, in that reading, I pulled that
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: someone pulled the hermit for me also with the page
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: of wants. And the page of wants is a card
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: of like let's go, what's next? What am I orienting
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: myself towards? Like let's let's have the passion and the
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: energy moving. And the hermit is isolation, solitude, going into
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: the inner forest. And it was so obvious that, like
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: the in the dreams, I was in that isolation, in
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: that inner forest, in that quiet and yet there was
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: this part of me that was like, aren't I supposed
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: to be doing something? Like why is there nothing to do?
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: And the cards were the same, the same cards, same dreams.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: And I did not like that at all, because I
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: didn't want the hermit I wanted to do stuff. I
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: was like, I have stuff to do. I don't like this.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: But that's what the cards do well for us all
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: the time, is they say this is the thing you
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: don't want, because this is the thing you most need
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: probably and so listen, listen to that now and see
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: if you can make an adjustment.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah you had that individuation processed, and it's like, oh no, well, okay,
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: I guess I have to Yeah.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: That's that's the task. And it's always, you know, as
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: I said, with the with that, those twenty two cards
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: moving always in this spiral, we keep coming back to it,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: and the task is like, next time I come back
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: to it, having learned a little bit more about it, Now,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: can I go a little bit more willingly? Or can
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: I bring out another layer of what this archetype has
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: for me or what this lesson is in life? So
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: that's that's the greater goal there too, makes sense.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: One question I didn't want to ask, but I feel
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: like you probably already answered it unless there's other books
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: out there, but like not, well, I guess what problem
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: did you want this book to like solve?
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: But like, what's different about.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: This that you thought of over the tarot books, like,
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: you know, how did you see this as being different
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: than what's out there?
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Was it just a psychology aspect.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Or Yeah, So it's a lot about that. I'm certainly
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: not the first person to write about how the Tarot
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: talks about in our reflection, right, that's people talk about
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: that all the time. I bring in this union lens,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: so I have this particular framework in this language that
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: that I teach and that I'm comfortable in. And there's
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: a couple of books out there on Yugian psychology or
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: you know, archetypal psychology and the Tarot, but they're more
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: just guidebooks, you know, they're just kind of like, here's
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: what the cards mean with this spin on it. And
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: my book does have that. It does like tell you
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: here's how to interpret the cards, because that's it's a
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: terror books, so you want that information. But the bigger
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: part of it is really like what's the work if
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: we're using the tarot this way, what do we do?
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: You know, what does what does the arc of individuation
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: here mean for me? And if I'm actually pulling cards,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: how do I try to interpret these cards? How do
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: I how do I work in this methodology. So I
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: was very much looking for that book when I was
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: learning the Tarra because that's that's what interests me and
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: that's my particular expertise. So I never I never found
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: it in a way that was like satisfying. Was all
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: either very very very densely union and hard to get
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: through for you know, people who are not like hardcore
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: union thinkers, or it was just like here's a way
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: to interpret the cards and it didn't really go any
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: any deeper. So it's kind of I'm trying to find
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: that that middle middle point.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: One thing I did want to ask also, I guess
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: how would you define that? I mean, this is another
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: thing too. I feel like shadow work has gotten very
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: trendy on social media or the phrase being thrown around.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: I think what to you? Do you think is what
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: does that mean to you?
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 42:19
  Speaker 7: I think shadow work is one of those hot topics
• 42:23
  Speaker 7: that everyone gets excited about, but it kind of doesn't
• 42:25
  Speaker 7: mean anything, Like it's kind of at this point has
• 42:29
  Speaker 7: been so.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Diluted that we don't really know what we mean when
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: we're talking about it. A lot of times we think
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: of it as like facing our bad side, which very
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: much the shadow is about but the shadow as an
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: archetype as an idea is actually Yunian Young is the
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: one who kind of coined the term and came up
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: with that way of thinking, and basically he says, the
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: shadow is everything that we don't see about ourselves, that
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: the ego cannot see. So it's anything that's repressed, hidden, obscured,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: and whatever way, and that it's equally the best stuff
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: in our psyches. So many times I will pull cards
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: for clients and they'll be very smart or very ambitious,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: but they're constantly like, I don't know, I don't know
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: if I can, I don't know if I should. I'm
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: so bad at this, and you'll see that they're pushing
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: down their best qualities as well. So that's also in
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: the shadow. So when we're working with shadow, we are
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: trying to engage with what we literally cannot see about ourselves,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: which is very, very hard and very dangerous. There's oftentimes
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: a reason why it's in the shadow, because to bring
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: that in could disrupt what we understand about ourselves, to
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: think that all our lives, we are a really passionate
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: person with you know, a lot of a lot of
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: energy to pursue our dreams in life and then we
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: realize we're actually lazy as hell. That's very hard to
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: face and it cracks our whole sense of self. And
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: so we're going to push that away because the ego's
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: natural instinct is to preserve itself and to still live
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: life and not crumble. So's it's dangerous work when we're
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: doing it sincerely, and well that doesn't mean we can't
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: do it. We should do it, but we need to
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: be aware that. My opinion is that the shadow is
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: ready to be worked with when it starts presenting itself
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: to you. When, for example, you have that one friend
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: who you think is a complete jerk and they keep
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: like being in your circle and you keep getting pissed
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: off by them, and you're like, what, why why can't
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: I get over this? The shadow is right there, right,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: there's something about them that is triggering something in you,
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: and there's an opportunity for a conversation. But if you're
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: just walking around in the dark probing at like where
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: am I a bad person? This is this is dangerous
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: territory in my opinion, So I like to I have
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: in the book, I actually have a whole chapter on
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: like technique of working with the taro, and a lot
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: of it is about shadow work and doing this very
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: careful and thoughtful process of using the cards to help
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: guide this work and really check in with what's coming
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: up in the psyche. I've thought a lot. I actually
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: am right now with the There's a online like institution
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: called the Young r Academy, and so they teach about
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: union topics, and so I'm on their faculty and so
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: right now I'm actually teaching on shadow and taro. So
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this a lot currently. But it has
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: to be something that's already presented to you, or that
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: the card is presenting to you, and you already have
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a sense of what that looks like.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: So I'll give example. There was a couple of years
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: ago I did a reading for myself and there was
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: like something I wanted to happen. I was like waiting
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: for this thing to happen and come through, and I
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: pulled the eight of Wands inverted, and that card is like,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: it's just like wands flying the ideas that energy is moving,
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: things are happening, things are coming through. So usually when
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: you pull that right side up, it's like good, it's
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: gonna happen. It's gonna happen fast, like everything's moving when
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: it comes up inverted or upside down, a very classic
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: way of thinking about it. It's like things are delayed,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: things are the energy's not going anywhere, things are stalled out.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: And so I saw that and it was really pissed
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: off because I didn't it's know what I wanted. I
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: wanted to say, it's time. Why isn't this happening yet?
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: And it really it just agitated me, and I realized, Okay,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: this is a shadow thing. There's something really really upsetting,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: not just that I'm not getting but I want. Yeah,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: that's that sucks. But there's something more. It's something really
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: pissed me off about this. Cart So I worked with
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: the shadow work process that I kind of outline the book,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: and the more that I interrogated it and questioned it
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: and thought about it and more, I realized, like, oh,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: there's a belief in my psyche that the universe does
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: not conspire to help me, but to thwart me, but
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: to make everything harder. Like there's this external force that
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: I believe is trying to like sabotage me. And this
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: is a deep shadow like belief that I had held
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: that I didn't realize was there. And so seeing the
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: thing not come through and seeing the card that said,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, it's not going to come through right now,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, because the universe hates my guess,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: of course it does. And I'm always fighting against this
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: and I don't understand why. So I had to like
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: really sit with that and like where did that come from?
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: What happened that inspired this belief? And how is that
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: continuing to sabotage me in my life? Like all of
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: those all of those big questions that were really hard
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: to look at, and it was a breakthrough, you know,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: slowly over the next couple months. Is the more I
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: sat with that, because assuming that the world is against
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: me meant that disappointment was there all the time, right.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: I could never just like take a loss and be
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: like oh okay, next one. No, there it is again,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: like this this belief I have And so that was
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: very much locked in my shadow, that that thing. So
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: that's the kind of stuff that we have, and was
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: locked away for a reason, right, because if I if
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I had total consciousness over that, then I would be
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: depressed and I'd be like not able to get anything
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: done because I would always believe like nothing good is
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: going to happen anyway. So it was pushed down, right,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: but it was still there. And so that's the idea
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: of shadow, is that even though it's pushed away, it's
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: still it's still active. So we're trying to bring these
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: things up slowly and gently, but it takes it does
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: take time, and it requires a lot of intentionality.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there was like even for myself when I started
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: getting begin to like, I guess looking at myself in
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: that way. Uh, I mean I would I even took
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: it back to like as a child, where it's like,
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: you know, my neighbor might have said something that for
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: some reason made me decide that that's the way it is, yeah,
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: you know, or like my father might have said something
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: to me or overheard a conversation and I just took
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: that as that's how you're supposed to act and think.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: And I look at it now, it's like do I
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: really agree with that shit? Yeah?
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Or behaviors like behaviors that I've realized that I've done
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: myself that it's like this is how I deal with
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: certain things, and it's not right, you know, it's really then.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: You've been doing for your whole life. Yeah, so it
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: could get really serious.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a poet named Robert Bligh who talks about
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: the shadow in this way, and he calls it the
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: long bag that we're always dragging behind us. So we're
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: dragging this bag and then as we're going someone says
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: something awful to us. We're like, stuff that in there.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: My mom told me, I'm ugly, stuff that in there.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: We just dragging it behind us, and we don't realize
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: that this bag is always attached to our ankle and
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: it's always weighing us down. And so that's that's one
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: of the reasons why the taro is such an amazing tool,
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: because it gives us a way of looking at It
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: gives us a symbol, it gives us a scene or
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: a figure. It's like that is that is an expression
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: of this thing that I've been carrying with me forever,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: and what from the card can inspire how I understand
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: it better and then try to heal that or change
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: that or face it or whatever. Whatever. Stage were At.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: A lot of times when I used to, you know,
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: with shadow work, I was kind of like looking at
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: certain stuff where it was like I guess maybe almost
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: like a phone in a sense, you'll have all these apps,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: but then there's this there's this major like the whole
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: operating system that's been there from the beginning, that got
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: programmed that lets all that other stuff run. I mean,
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: that's why I would even go back to a child,
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: because at that point you really don't know how things are,
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: and you're just basically like a sponge and you're kind
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: of being programmed by who's ever around you telling you
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: how things are.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, it.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Was very like programmable. I was looking at it.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if that's like, maybe not
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: the best way to look at it either, but yeah,
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: I did kind of see it like that, like shit,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: like I really got to take it back to that
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: faught and I don't know what it was there, something
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: in the Geta. I think when I was reading the
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: Geta for some reason, when I took it, I took it,
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: and you know, I looked.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: At it a different way than most people probably do.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: But I felt like when he was there and he
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: had those two sides, I was like, I feel like
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: that's like his conscious or his brain or like something
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: arguing back and forth with him. So like for some reason,
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: I took it that way, and I don't know. That
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: really started making me try to, like because he mentioned
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: like I think his neighbors, parents, or school something like that,
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: and I started thinking, like, fuck, that's where I've gotten
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: all my ideas about the rest of my life is
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: from those people and the things that they said or
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: conversations or don't do this because X, Y and Z.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Why because I said so, I really doesn't give me
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: an answer either, but you know I listened.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: To it, right.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: That's like the idea of individuation basically is that we
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: are raised by our parents, by society, by everything around us,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: and then at some point the process starts when we go.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: And now I got to unroll all of that and
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: figure out who I am actually, And that's that's the
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: process that's in the tear of the card, for that
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: is the fool. So the fool has like this little
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: he has the stick with the bag of right to
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: walk off a cliff. And so the idea is that
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: we finally get to the point where we have unrolled
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: the bag, right, the long bag that would drug behind us,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: and what we carry is almost nothing. We carry almost
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: nothing of this. We're totally free, and we say I'm
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: fresh and starting new and about to step off the cliff.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Because to everyone else in the world this looks like
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: what are you doing? This is death, this is not
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: how the world works, this is not who you're supposed
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: to be. But we're the only ones who see that
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: there's a path that's invisible to everybody else, and we're
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: going to walk right into it. And so that card
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: shows that individuation like moment where we're like, oh, this
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: is my life and I'm someone entirely different from what
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: everybody has told me I'm supposed to be and what
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: As you talk, you're the distinction on your presentation of terror.
• 52:47
  Speaker 5: It makes me think of the Buddhist idea of the
• 52:51
  Speaker 5: elephant as mind, and you know, it's almost like when
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: it's well, the main lesson that they present is when
• 52:59
  Speaker 5: you aren't in control of your mind, that elephant can
• 53:03
  Speaker 5: do horrible things. And when you are, of course the
• 53:07
  Speaker 5: elephant the mind is powerful. But it also reminds me
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: of the contrast of just being at the whim of
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: this destiny and or controlling this powerful mind elephant.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's very much, you know, like
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: one of the things that Jung says about are what
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: we're trying to do as humans, and like what the
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: individuation process is about is to be the same person
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: in all the conditions of our life, right, and so
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: every time we're given a new situation or told something
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: else by someone else, we're trying to adapt. And when
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: we're you know, in that authentic cell phooe, when we're
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: in that individuated state, which of course is like the
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: lifetime journey, we never really fully get there, then we
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: are who we are always there's that center point that
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: is unchanging, that has that kind of that grounding that
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: you know, all these different forces will come in, the
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: thoughts will come in, the fears will come in, all
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: the stuff that we we remain centered, you remain that
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: unchanging self. That's the goal that we're trying to get at.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: And you know, it's a really beautiful thing to remember,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: is the point. And one of the great things about
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: Taro is that, you know, Taro is all about questions.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: We're always asking a question. We're always like, why is
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: this happening? Why am I doing that? Why is this
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: not happening? Does he love me? You know, like we're
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: always asking the questions. And one of the things I
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: say all the time about the Taro is that there's
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: there's no such thing as an answer, first of all,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: because there never really is an answer to anything. But
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: the real point of a reading is to find the
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: better question. What was the question we didn't know we
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: were asking? So if we come saying like why can't
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: I just get over this? And we pull some cars,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: hopefully those cards will get us to realize that maybe
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: the better question was why can't I just live the
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: way I want to? Why can't I just move on?
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Like? Why am I stuck here? And so that's the
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: better question, and so that question will get us closer
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: to that centered experience of who we are, which will then,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: hopefully the next time some things happens like what initially
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: inspired the question, we're not as you know, like thrown
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: around and lose our center because of it. That's the goal.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Eventually, I liked that a lot. Did you have something
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: you want to say? I know?
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: I think Ethan brought it up and it helped me
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: understand because your psychological part of your book, which I
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: find is a part not just in terror. I think
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: it's something we don't talk enough those of us who
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: practicely a cult and apply enough when we do our practices.
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: And I'm not sure if you just stick to the
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: tarot or do you use other systems, and is your
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: approach with psychology in tarot?
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: How can I say.
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: Could it work with in other work workings that people
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: may do.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I think it's a really good question. I think it can. Yeah.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: I mean I think that you know, like the shadow
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: work process that I offer with the tarot, I think
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: that could apply to anything that you're working with with shadow.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: And I think that you know, even if you're working
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: in other systems like astrology or you know, even working
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: with the eye eaching, because they have they have images
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: that you can work with too, you can apply these
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: same same patterns of trying to work with the image,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: because that's what tarot cards are, their images. They're just
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: through scenes or figures, their colors, their symbols, and so
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: any any divination practice or any practice at all that
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: works symbolically or with images, I think you can apply
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff that I talk about in
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: my book. And that's why Jungian psychology I think is
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: so useful. In particular, I don't really dabble in other
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: forms of psychology just because I'm not a psychologist. I guess,
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: like I don't practice psychology. I don't not like like
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist in any fashion, but I have this
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: knowledge of how Jungian psychology works almost as a philosophy,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: and so like, I really kind of stick to that
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: because it's so much about the archetypal, which is these
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: inner images that we carry with us all the time.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: So I think that that can apply to so much. Absolutely.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, uh, now I know you also given with the tarot?
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: Did anybody else have anything about the taro? I did
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: want to ask something else, I don't think, so okay,
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: just making sure I know from I think from looking
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: at you, stuff is there? I go, What's what's up
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: with I guess you and Persephone? Is that like a
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: devote type thing?
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Or my sister's name is Persephone? Yeah? She I love
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: this question because everyone's like, oh, it's not as interesting
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: as he was always much cooler than I was. She
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: had more people knew who she was when I was
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: a kid, and so everyone was always like, oh, the
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: Persephone's sister's here, and that's what. No one knew my name.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: They just knew me as Persephanie's sister, and then when
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, you know, kind of in the phase
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: of like, oh, do I want to like have a
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: name for this thing I'm creating, and I was like, well, yeah,
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, Persephanie is also the goddess of duality in
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways, and I really like that symbol
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: in the Tarot. I think so much of the Tarot
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: is about holding the tension of the opposites, which is
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: what Ung says a lot about, Like interchange is always
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: that holding the tension of the opposites. There's this and
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: there's that, and there's tension between them, and if we
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: hold it correctly, there'll be a synthesis or there'll be
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: a breaks or of some kind. And so Persephone is
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: both the goddess of the underworld and darkness and spring
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: a new life, and so she beautifully holds the attention
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: of the opposite. So I like that about it too.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: And also it was just what I'm used to. I'm
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: used to being good wife.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: That's funny.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: It was there's somebody who wanted to come on the show,
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: but they're big, like that's huge into posefone and they're like,
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: I don't want it to feel like I'm kind of
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: like ripping a style.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Came on, I I'm not a devotee.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just texted that. I was like, it was
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: just his name. You're gonna come on the show. Yeah,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: that's so bad. I feel bad. It's just a cool
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: chick too.
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: She really would have took it nice all right now,
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: because I was gonna ask you, like, if you were
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: a perse devotee, like could you give some examples?
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: But it doesn't apply all right, I'm just I just
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: assumed in my bed.
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: I know it's so funny. I like the amount of
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: times I've gotten this question. I give the answer people
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: like look so like disappointed because like obviously something cool,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: Like I just that's just who I am. I've always
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: been known as for Soephanie's sister, and it just my
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: mom liked it a lot. When I was like, I
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: think I could a call, she was like, I love that.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: That's fantastic. So I was like, oh, I'll make her happy.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: I'll go with that.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: Besides I call a young book, what would be like
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: your another book? Besides that one book that really shaped
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: your approach?
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: It's a good question. I think you know there were
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of books I read early on in the
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: union sphere that were really helpful in understanding, like like
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: Murray Lewis v and franzs on divination and synchronicity, which
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, like reading that and understanding divination more deeply.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: One of the things she says about it is that
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: when we think about it psychologically, what we're doing is
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: tapping into the dynamic load of an art con delated archetype,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: which means that like we have these archetypes in us
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: all the time, and sometimes they have you know, there's
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: more energy in it because this is what's active in
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: our life, and so divination taps into the like the
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: electricity that's flowing through that archetype in our psyche and
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: like plugs us into this field. And just these kinds
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: of ways of thinking about it were like just kind
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: of blew my mind and I was like, oh, this
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: is like yeah, this works, this is the thing that works.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: I also really appreciated Robert Johnson's work, which I think
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: is a very approachable way to get into union psychology
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: and how we work with it personally, not like as
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: like this bigger psychology. So he has a book called
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Inner Work, which is very readable, and he also has
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: one called I Think It's Owning Your Shadow, which is
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: just they're just so quick and good and like you
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: get a lot out of it without it getting too dense.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: So those are some things that were very you know,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: foundational for me in the beginning. And then like in
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: terms of Taro, the work of Mary Kay Greer, she's
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: like one of the O G. Taro minds, and also
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Rachel Pollack were really big for me and I think
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: for probably most people who start with Taro, because they
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: really were the first to kind of say, there's so
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: many layers, let's find all the layers in this like
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: modern way.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, thank you. I don't think I've heard of
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: any of those people, actually, well though I heard of
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: one of the women. Nice.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: Did you have any Did you guys have any other
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: questions or anything you want to add? Okay, was there
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: anything else you would like to maybe ed or mention
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: maybe about the book that you want people to hear
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: or know about.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the thing that makes it useful
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: for people, I think, which is what I my goal
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: with it, is too like kind of like one of
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: the things that I talked about early in the book
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: is that we need to use it the way that
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: the monks, you know, in the Middle Ages would talk
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: about the contemplative path, right, this path of contemplation that
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: we're on, of meditation and presence. I'm actually right now
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: reading Saint John of the Cross reading The Dark Knight
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: of the Soul. Yeah, so this idea of this contemplative
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: path being in this state of mindfulness and meditation. I'm
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: not a Buddhist and I don't go that way too much,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: just just not my wheelhouse. But I like this kind
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: of mystical side of it that the Christian world kind
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: of talked about it in the Middle Ages, and that's
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: the world that the Tara was born out of. And
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: so I think like there's this way of approaching it,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: that it can be this friend to you and this
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: guide post to you as you're moving through your life
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: in this contemplative way. And so I talk about that
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: a lot in the book, and like how to be
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: with the cards, how the cards can be with you,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: and so it's not just like, oh, I don't know
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: what to do here, pull cards, but it's this companion
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: and and so that's what I think is really unique
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: about it and special about it. And what I really
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: wanted to pull out is it's not just like, Okay,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: you pulled the four of craps. What what in the
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: world does that mean? There's there's something that's to contemplate,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: to meditate on, to delve into. So that's that's that's
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: the hope of what it guides like readers through. I
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: tried really hard to make it, to make it grounding.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I appreciate you coming on. That
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: was a great talk. Really really thank you.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: Before we wrap it up, Judith, you want to let
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: everybody know they can find all your stuff.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: Yes, first, Marina, thank you so much. I actually appreciated this.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: I see it's a wonderful How can I say contribution
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: within not just tear up with the occult? So I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: look forward to when is the book coming out again
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: or is it second?
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: It's officially out March second, it's available for pre order
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: and stuff now nice.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I look forward to reading that. Thank you so much.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: And you could catch me on the loan on YouTube
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: as well as on Twitter as the Loon.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you very much for coming on. Jesus
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: and Ethan in Togo my mane.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, you guys. Mariana.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: That was awesome.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 5: Thank you for your insights, and that's a whole layer
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 5: of inspiration within the cards. I feel like that you
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 5: revealed today, So thank you. Ethan Indigo Smith. Easy to
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 5: find online and I appreciate anyone reaching out with communication,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: so feel free to say hi.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: Thanks again, Thank you very much, sir and Marianna. Please
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: let everybody know where they can find your podcast and
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: your website and everything else.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram, substack, YouTube as
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: Persephone's sister, and my website is also persephone Sister dot com.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: And the podcast is sore Mystica. So there's lots of
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: really juicy episodes and more to come in the coming months. Yeah,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: and then the book is available wherever you pre order
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: your books or get your books. I'm pretty sure it's
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: just like generally out there now, so you can you
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: can take a look.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much again for coming on. I
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: thoroughly enjoyed it and hopefully maybe get you back on
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: in the future.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: For something else. Thank you.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. I really really had
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: a great time, so I really appreciate you having me on.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: Great, great, I'm glad and yeah, I guess that is
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: the end of another recult rejects and until the next one,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: everybody be well.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: Lata